Leadership Lessons from DHL's Former CEO, Rob Kuijpers

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• What does it take to be the CEO of a leading global company? 
• What qualities enable a CEO to bring out the best in themselves and others? 
• What can you do, regardless of rank or position, to have a fulfilling career? 

These are just some of the topics that I cover in this episode of Leading People. 

My guest is Rob Kuijpers. 

Rob rose to senior positions within Heinz before first becoming CEO of EMEA for DHL and eventually CEO of DHL Worldwide Express, at the time the most global company in the world. 

When the Belgian national airline, Sabena, went bankrupt in 2001, in the aftermath of 9/11, Rob helped set up and became CEO of what is now Brussels Airlines. 

Today, Rob is 86 and still active in business. And, he regularly takes part in international tennis competitions for the over 80s! 

It's often said that wisdom comes with age. During what turned out to be a fascinating conversation we follow Rob's career path with stories and anecdotes, lessons learned about how to deal with mistakes and failures, and probably more importantly, how to get others to perform at their best. 

And, Rob has some great advice for us all on how to have fulfilling careers. 

There are so many other valuable nuggets in this conversation that I'll leave it to you to decide what your favourite ones are. 

And, remember to follow us on our social media channels and share the podcast with colleagues and friends. 

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Transcript

CEO Wisdom

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to episode 54 of Leading People with me, gerry Murray. This episode is brought to you by Wide Circle, helping you make better talent decisions. To learn more, visit widecircleeu. That's W-I-D-E-C-I-R-C-L-E dot E-U. C-i-r-c-l-e dot E -U.

Speaker 1 0:28

What does it take to be the CEO of a leading global company, and what qualities enable a CEO to bring out the best in themselves and others, and what can you do, regardless of rank or position, to have a fulfilling career? These are just some of the topics that I cover in this episode of Leading People. My guest is Rob Kuypers. Rob rose to senior positions within Heinz before first becoming CEO of EMEA, for DHL and eventually CEO of DHL Worldwide Express. And when the Belgian national airline Sabina went bankrupt in 2001 in the aftermath of 9-11, rob helped set up and became CEO of what today is Brussels Airlines. I worked with three CEOs when I was at DHL, which at that time was the world's most global company. This experience early on in my career has enabled me to work with many other CEOs and C-suite executives since I left DHL in 2002. Of those three DHL CEOs, I found Rob to be the most open and collaborative in the sense that he was genuinely curious and listened to your opinions and expertise related to the work you did for him. This, as research demonstrates, is a key driver of individual engagement in organizations and an essential element in creating psychological safety. Today, rob is 86 and still active in business, and he regularly takes part in international tennis competitions for the over 80s.

Speaker 1 2:01

It's often said that wisdom comes with age. During what turned out to be a fascinating conversation, we follow Rob's career path, with stories and anecdotes, lessons learned about how to deal with mistakes and failures and, probably more important, how to get others to perform at their best, and Rob has some great advice for us all on how to have fulfilling careers. So, without further ado, let's listen to what Rob has to say. Rob Kuypers, welcome to Leading People. Thank you. Nice to be in Hildenberg. Nice to be in Hildenberg, in Belgium. So, for the listeners out there, rob, you were one of three CEOs that I worked with at DHL and we'll get to that shortly but we were having lunch recently and I was impressed at how active you still are in the world of business at the age of 86. And so I thought our listeners would benefit from your wisdom gleaned from over 60 years in business.

Speaker 1 3:02

But before we hear about that aspect. Let's go back in time. So you were born in the Netherlands, weren't you? And you grew up in Hilversum. But how did you get into business? Because you told me your father was a professional musician. So how does the son of a professional musician end up with a really sterling career in business, and how did you get started, and what was the progression like to when you've got your first ceo job?

Speaker 3 3:29

that's. It's a good question. I'm thinking about it actually. After, when I was 18, I finished secondary school. Uh, I was advised to go to a business school called nigerode. What was the? The one and only business school in Holland At the time, sponsored by Philips, unilever, people like that.

Speaker 3 3:51

They said you better do your military service first. What I did another 18 months and then they took me on what was pretty exceptional at the time, but, not being sure that I would be allowed to get into school, I started looking for a job and I was offered a job and what I actually did for a couple of years was for a company called Indian African Company. What they did? They bought products in Europe and, in the old days, exported it to what's now Indonesia, and they started up in Africa. That office is in Africa and I was supposed to go to Africa.

Speaker 3 4:38

What attracted me? Adventure? Yeah, one time one of the guys I happened to know came back from and he said you're crazy, you're too young, you're going to live in a villa with six servants and things like that. You sport for the rest of your life, so don't do that. At the time, I was a pretty good tennis player and the president of a tennis club said he actually was the boss of Aspro. I don't know if you know it. Farmers you know were a kind of Aspro Australian company at the time. Why don't you join my club of tennis which was a pretty good one, by the way and start working and we'll give you training? And that was the first training I've ever had in business. I was actually selling Aspro and Rennies, which you still see today. I still use Rennies. I'm grateful, so I use it all my life. I don't believe in the other ones and I've done that for four years.

Speaker 3 5:37

And then it was more or less enough. I learned everything you could learn and I got a possibility to move to the UK and to join a company called Philip Scott Turner which affects Sterling Drug, and I became a first things with marketing. I was leading essentially our products in all the small countries of Europe. It was great fun traveling, living in England. It was a good training period. You learned a lot of things. You learned to work international. You learned to work with different cultures all over Europe, because Europe is Europe, but cultures in Scandinavia are different from Southern Europe. People live in a different way. Our products were what was it.

Speaker 3 6:28

He had medical magnesia, andrew's liver salt, all the kind of products for drug guests and, in some countries, pharmacies. Then I left and joined Beecham Beecham at the time not a pharmaceutical division, but it was pretty good. They started with penicillin, so Pembritin, clamoxil Clamoxil is still there multi-scale antibiotics. But we did other things. I became responsible for products like McLean's toothpaste and Brylcreem and various kind of shampoos and vitamin drink Not Rose Vissé, the other one, anyway blackberries. And then we had the most expensive way to carry water, which was Leucosate, what was Luco said, and we sold that.

Speaker 3 7:23

I was responsible for Scandinavia and Scandinavia, holland, belgium, austria, switzerland, so still virtually all the little countries, small countries in Europe. I did that for four years and then I joined Heinz and that's where a real career started, because I did started out as a marketing guy for Holland and shortly afterwards for the Benelux countries and Austria, and after four years I became the head of Heinz in what they called Central Europe, which was really Germany, france, scandinavia, holland, belgium. I had a fantastic boss at the time, the best rugby island he's ever had for the Irish among you Tony.

Speaker 3 8:13

O'Reilly. Tony O'Reilly, yeah, he's very famous and he was not my direct boss, but because I played tennis still and he liked to play tennis, we played a lot, so many many meetings. I got a partner. He designated me a partner. He played always the same guy, a guy called Joe Bogdanovich, who was originally a starkist in the States, what the company Heinz had bought and that was really an important period also in Heinz, because the Heinz company wasn't doing very well and the chairman, a guy called Bert Kuchen and Tony O'Reilly really turned that company around and became an extremely successful company.

Speaker 1 9:04

Enjoying the insights and inspiration. Make sure to catch every episode by subscribing to leading people on your favorite podcast platform, and please take a moment to rate us. Your feedback makes all the difference. Remember to follow us on our social media channels and join our LinkedIn group for more content and connection with like-minded professionals. Stay connected, stay informed and let's grow together.

Speaker 3 9:36

Then, after 14 years with Heinz, which is quite a long time, after four years with the other companies, which is quite a long time, after four years' stints with the other companies, I decided to leave for various reasons and didn't want to compete with Heinz and somehow I got involved in a company called DHL. I was 50 at the time. At the time, I became the head of Europe, africa and the Middle East. At the time became the head of Europe Africa Middle East, followed up about five, six years later being the worldwide CEO of DHL.

Speaker 1 10:11

Express. Yeah, in those days that was DHL. Basically, it was DHL at that time and what I'm hearing is it was quite phenomenal because you're describing your early career internationally. That was a big deal in those days because that was what the 60s and that it was the 60s.

Speaker 3 10:28

I moved to the UK in 62, so it was even the late 50s, yeah, when that all happened and there were not that many. It's fascinating to work internationally. It's always been fascinating.

Speaker 1 10:45

For our listeners. This was pre-EU.

Speaker 3 10:47

Oh, yeah, way pre-EU.

Speaker 1 10:49

The European economic community was only starting and getting going in the 60s and 70s, I think the first one was the snake when they decided to move the currencies, not the 2% or whatever.

Speaker 3 11:01

It's quite interesting because you knew, by the way, that Italy would devaluate every three years, belgium every four years, france every four years, so you could work on the devaluations to come. Everybody would know that in certain countries it would happen. I mean, the Euro, in the end of the day, is the Deutschmark and the Dutch Gilde. That's what it is.

Speaker 1 11:27

Yes, yes, yes, it was peg too. It reminds me of when, the first day I arrived in DHL in Brussels here a lot of people didn't know that the headquarters the world headquarters was in this little office not far from Schumann, and I remember walking into my office and there was a map of the world, you know, on the wall and everybody had a map of the world in DHL. But I looked at it and I thought, hmm, that's interesting, I wonder what that's for. And within one week it was like morning spent on Asia, middle of the day spent on Europe, Middle East Africa, and if you're unfortunate enough to have to deal with the US, you had to stay until 7 or 8 o'clock because California was only getting going. But that just made the whole world in DHL was incredibly small in that, because one of the things we'll get to now in a minute is that community spirit that DHL had even as it grew. So you were there in the days when it was going at rocket pace growth.

Speaker 3 12:21

What was it? 20% a year. I was there. I don't think it had much to do with me, it was just the economy and the internationalization of business. There was enormous growth in those periods. I mean, for a privately owned company at the time, it was fantastic because we didn't really have to go to the banks to finance our growth. I mean, it was just internally financed. Yeah, and you have to be very grateful to the owners at the time, dolce, hillblom and Lynn, that they didn't take really the money out of the company. I mean, they really wanted this company to make it to grow and so we did.

Speaker 1 13:02

Yeah, and just before I went in I finished an mba and um, I'd read a book by a mckinsey consultant but a japanese guy called kenichi oma and he talked about the borderless world and he had talked about a global company being in 50 to 60 countries. But dhl was in what, how many hundred and and it really was probably the most global company in the world.

Speaker 3 13:24

but because it was privately held, by the way, we were voted the most global company, closely followed by Coca-Cola. And in one of those conferences in Davos, that was spelled out and we were heavily present there because the topic at the time was globalization at that particular meeting, so dhl was was really there over the place so, um, so I've heard a lot about.

Speaker 1 13:55

I suppose I was going to ask you about what training or mentors did you get? But I think you kind of covered that because you you kind of said I was thrown in the deep end internationally early on in my career and I just happened to then develop my abilities you get.

Speaker 3 14:10

Obviously you get some training. You have to, particularly in finance. You have to you know finance for stupid people or something, but anyway you have to be able to. You need some be able to. You need some technical knowledge which you can't just pick up on the road. You have to pick that up in courses. As far as people is concerned, the big influence of me was your Irish friend Tony O'Reilly. He could do just about anything at the time.

Speaker 1 14:43

What was it about him that I mean, I think, a lot of young people in their early career and that when people are growing, having somebody they can look up to and say, well, what was it about him that grabbed, what were the couple of things that seemed to just grab you, that this was something special about this man. Special about this man. Before we continue, I want to acknowledge the recent passing of Irish businessman and philanthropist, sir Tony O'Reilly, who had a profound influence on Rob Kuyper's career. Sir Tony's mentorship and leadership principles have left a lasting legacy in the business world. His emphasis on recruiting individuals who play to win is a testament to his strategic vision and dedication to excellence. We honour his memory and the invaluable contributions he made to shaping successful leaders. Let's hear what Rob had to say about Tony O'Reilly's impact on him.

Speaker 3 15:44

A few things. One he is a hard worker, very hard worker, but he also enjoyed life, right Like an Irishman. He liked his drink every now and then, not too much, but liked his drink, liked to enjoy himself, good social life. There's one thing, by the way, what has stayed me for a long time and is still there. He said when you're recruiting and somebody does whatever sport he does it might be rugby, like he did, or tennis, or whatever whatever volleyball you look not how, like he did, or tennis or whatever Whatever Volleyball. You look not how good he is, but you look the way he plays Right. Does he play to win? Yeah, and if he's got the, you have to choose between two or three of the same attributes. Always take the guy who wants to win Right. That's one of his yeah, and probably he learned that in rugby.

Speaker 3 16:50

One of my grandchildren plays rugby and it's a fantastic team sport. It is the super team sport, but it's also a sport where you want to win. You can't just step aside for a few minutes and you have to participate all the time. It's very character forming. So that's one of the things he said and I strongly believe in that the will to win, the will to do something is very important To achieve. It doesn't matter what level, it doesn't matter not how good you are, but the way you play, and you have to be honest about it ok, so what makes a great team then?

Speaker 3 17:36

a great team for me is it's got to be completely complementary in character, in skill sets. A great team in sport but also in business is made up of people who can work together, are very good in their specific skills and have this will to win. But it's not an individual win, it's a win to win as a team Right, and that makes different people still complementary and working together.

Speaker 1 18:16

Because there's always a bit of a tension. We see it in modern sport today, in team sports, where on paper a team looks brilliant. You know, you've got this, the Premier League, let's say You've got a country like England that puts out players that play at the highest level but for many years couldn't win much. So what is it? How do you balance that tension about the ego of the individuals and their skill sets versus that collective desire to win? If you go back to sport, I mean, it's always amazing versus that collective desire to win in business.

Speaker 3 18:45

If you go back to sport, I mean it's always amazing who certain coaches Pep is one of them can put 18 stars together, keep them together on the whole and create a team. Them together on the whole and create a team yeah, and others just can't cope with the, the personalities or the or the superiority feeling of one or two players in any sport right, it's in any sport. So I still think the coach, who has got to keep it all together, plays an important role. Normally, perhaps all these guys are better than he is or she is in any discipline in business or any part of the game in sport, but he can keep it all together and build a one-on-ones in threes rather than twos, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 19:44

So that's probably quite a nice segue into how would you describe your own leadership style and what sort of behaviours would you say that helped you become a strong leader?

Speaker 3 20:01

I? It's difficult to say because people will look at me differently and look at myself. That's the way it is, but I would say that it's allowing mistakes. If you don't allow mistakes, people don't do anything anymore. So you have to allow mistakes, preferably not twice the same. That would be stupid. But that's one of the reasons.

Speaker 3 20:33

I want to have fun in the way I work. I want to have it's got to be pleasant. So try to create an environment where everyone is happy in his work. I think you have to realize one of the things I say is everybody is good at something and it's the team or the CEO or whatever who has got to find out a certain person. What is, where is he really good in? What does he enjoy? And then usually, when you enjoy it and you're good, you got the basic skills clearly. So, uh, accepting that probably, that everybody is better than you are yourself in in certain parts of the business environment, techniques, certain, whatever skills, whatever you want to call it that you have to accept, yeah, and so you have to be competitive on the one hand, but not too competitive that you can't accept competition in your team.

Speaker 1 21:37

Ah, yeah, yeah. So how did you go about establishing with somebody what it was that they enjoyed doing and making sure that they got to do lots of it?

Speaker 3 21:51

to perform well. Yeah, I don't think it's science, it's feeling. It's looking at people how they act. It's probably by sports helps in looking at people what they really are. It's watching people. It's not spying on people, but it's watching how they behave. It's a very young guy going back to Heinz. It's a very young guy. Back to Heinz, it's a very young guy.

Speaker 3 22:25

I remember there was a guy that's the old Peter Principle, by the way. There was a guy, older guy, I was probably 30, 35 or something. He must have been 50 and he had pain, he was sick all the time and I demoted him from his job. He must have been 50. And he had pain. He was sick all the time. He was in pain all the time and I demoted him from his job. I gave him another job. He was very young. I gave him another job. What he liked, I didn't like, he refused it. Then he did it. The guy did his job. He's never been sick again and he enjoyed it. So that's the old Peter principle, what probably is out of fashion these days. But some people can get promoted beyond their level, but they can cope with, and then they're unhappy because most people like to do well in what they're doing. Most not everybody, but most people do, and if they're not doing well in what they're doing, they get unhappy, and that also works on their physical state.

Speaker 1 23:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for anybody out there who's dealing with these issues, that's an important point Look at the job they're doing and really have that conversation about are you enjoying that job? Because if you're not enjoying it, you probably won't perform very well in it and it's going to affect your whole way of being right, Absolutely yeah. So you mentioned mistakes and learning from mistakes. When you think back, what were some of the things that you tried out that worked well and what were some of the things that you tried out that didn't work, and how did you learn from those things?

Speaker 3 24:07

that you tried out that didn't work. And how did you learn from those? You know, one point in time, what, what becomes the most important when you, when you you know ceo or something the most important part of your job is having the right people around you. Yeah, and I've made mistakes, yeah, and the funny thing is that if you think on paper everything is fantastic, yeah, you're recruiting, it looks fantastic, but there's this little ingling, you know, it looks too good to be true, things like that and then if you have that feeling, you still go ahead very often most of the time, by the way, it didn't work out right, it doesn't work out. But you also make mistakes in, yeah, that it all seems to work out and something happens and people can't.

Speaker 3 25:15

It's difficult to judge that Some people can't confront a defeat, something what's not successful, and they start panicking and doing strange things, and that you don't really at least not me find out in job interviews. You find it out, sometimes with an honest opinion of an outsider who's worked with the guy or the girl. So you make mistakes there because you know the opinion of an outsider who's worked with the guy or the girl. So you make mistakes there because you know these mistakes, you try to avoid it further on. Yeah, but the key thing is, even if you make a mistake, the guy or the girl has got something good. If not, you wouldn't take him. So then that gain becomes something. How do you find this guy a job within the organization?

Speaker 3 26:11

where you can excel and that helps that happens. Nobody is grateful in the beginning. If you do it.

Speaker 2 26:19

Nobody.

Speaker 3 26:20

I've never seen anybody grateful, but in the end sometimes they're happy, Happier or sometimes. I can remember in HR anyway, I put somebody in HR and he didn't like it, but he made a fantastic career in HR afterwards not in the company, he left us and did very well, okay.

Speaker 1 26:46

So how many chances would you give somebody then? I mean, you find out that they're not all they were made out to be, so you decide to move them somewhere. How long would you wait before you go? I think we have to cut. Yeah, probably a couple maximum.

Speaker 3 27:00

Yeah, yeah, depends what it is.

Speaker 1 27:02

Yeah, yeah. But what you mentioned earlier, um, about the in relation to a person you've hired around, how they might deal with something you know that goes wrong. What was, what was the way you framed it in your because there's a lot of mindset, mental stuff how do you, how did you reframe for yourself a problem or, uh, something that went wrong? How did you decide to recover from that? What was the way you dealt with it?

CEO's Role in Business Operations

Speaker 3 27:30

Actually, the guy who comes to mind, who was supposed to be my successor in Heinz, by the way, it happened in a training session. He panicked in a training session. So then you start, start worrying and the first thing you decide he's not my successor, because the many failures are many things in, uh, but just don't work out. So you have to be able to accept it, and and in a timely fashion. You don't just go ahead and with what you're doing, you divert whatever, whatever money solution. So in a people way, that's a very quick decision. That doesn't work. That doesn't work. But he can perhaps do that job. But then you have to bring somebody under him, next to him, over him, who will overcome that particular weakness. Because the guy had strengths, very good strengths. If not he wouldn't be there. But there was this one element. I don't know where it came from. It comes from somewhere. Now, if you do sport again, you have had a lot of defeats in your life. So if you can't cope with it, you don't do sport yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 28:44

So the sport has helped you go.

Speaker 3 28:47

You know, that's just, you'll have bumps in the road, so yeah, well, I've had my bumps, but but you overcome them because you've seen it before.

Speaker 1 28:57

Ah, okay right, so experience plays a big part in it as well.

Speaker 3 29:00

Yeah, it's for the ones who do sport, not everybody. They're sport. So there are ways I happen to be a sportsman I still am and that helps, but there are other means of. I don't think in the case of DHL was funny. You can describe DHL as a rugby team one big worldwide rugby team working very hard, having a lot of.

Speaker 3 29:26

describe DHL as a rugby team One big worldwide rugby team. Yeah, Working very hard, having a lot of pleasure together, having a lot of fun together. Okay, coming back to what you pick up, the other thing is what probably is one of my the best ideas. Certainly, in a service company, the best IDs are not found in head office. They're found in the field by the practitioners.

Speaker 1 29:51

Practitioners yeah.

Speaker 3 29:52

And that's even a courier or, in the case of an airline, an air hostess or whatever. Yes, they are the ambassadors of your company and if they see something wrong, have an ear, listen to them. And not everything is good ideas, but some good ideas in the HL came from the couriers in the operational sense.

Speaker 1 30:18

So I remember when I was there and you told me afterwards that you focused a lot on getting out and about, particularly in the bigger countries, and that how important is that from a CEO's point of view to be out in the business, Because you know a lot of businesses grow and then CEOs spend their life in offices and having meetings and just getting briefings. So how important was it to you to get out there.

Speaker 3 30:44

It was absolutely key. I was traveling 14 years long, probably 200 days a year. I probably had more planes per week than an average pilot. Why is it important? The third thing is, let's call it budget meetings. That's where I start. So, whatever a country Botswana, syria, canada they come to Brussels the CEO and the finance director and they come with a beautiful presentation. You see two people. You haven't got a clue what really happens in this company. Don't forget DHL, that's a service industry. So what happens in the company is absolutely key. You go out there. You have a feel what's really happening.

Speaker 3 31:31

I always usually said has DHL XYZ country become a post office or is it still DHL? That's very important. Don't forget, in DHhl, you pick up something in one country, you deliver it in another country. So you have to work together. If the delivery is bad, it's harmful with a pickup. If the pickup is no good, you won't get keep repeat customers anyway. So that's important in the countries.

Speaker 3 32:04

What do you do in a country? You're right, the bigger countries perhaps came two times a year, a few days longer usually, but all over the place. Usually you have something with customers, key customers, important customers. I always have something question and answer sessions with the staff. Something with customers? Yeah, the key customers, important customers. I always have something. Question and answer sessions with the staff yeah, where you also see the difference. A Dutch guy like me they bop, they go out, and if you go to Asia, they're too polite and too nice certainly Japanese, so you allow them anonymous to put question on a piece of paper. Yeah, so they don't want to stand out. So that's what you do. You obviously get your presentation, but some people hadn't realized that in the plane I usually was reading the presentation of the year before yes, reading the presentation of the year before yes, and one HR lady in a country not to be named hadn't realized that. So she gave me the same presentation as 12 months before, right, but she didn't give it a second time because it was no longer there.

Speaker 1 33:19

Right, so you saw through that.

Speaker 3 33:22

Yeah, because I read it in the plane and then two hours later, she told me the same story.

Speaker 1 33:26

All right, yeah, so you were thinking what has happened in 12 months?

Speaker 3 33:31

No, no. So that's the kind of thing you do in country, but the most important probably is the feel for the business.

HR's Role in Leadership Development

Speaker 1 33:39

Right, yeah, so we have quite some people working in the HR field listening. How can HR help in the development of leaders in companies? What can they do to? What is their role? Basically, coming up, rob delves into the qualities that make a great team, the role of HR in leadership development and his unique experiences transitioning from corporate roles to assisting in the relaunch of a failed national airline. So let's hear more insightful and inspiring stories from Rob.

Speaker 3 34:21

Let's put it that way. There are two things in HR. One, what I call the factory. You know, the factory is you get to pay your salaries, your pension, this, that the rules. It might as well sit in the finance department or something that's in my mind. It's called HR but it's nothing to do with HR.

Speaker 3 34:42

What is important is HR is it should be the right-hand man of the CEO. Yeah, it should really be an assistant in the people side of the business. Yeah, finding the right people I mean you can't start interviewing 200 people anyway. So making the pre-selections, knowing the company, knowing what kind of character for that particular position the CEO will be looking for and having the skills to do that, that's important for HR. So HR, in my mind the factory, depends on the size of the company.

Speaker 3 35:21

It can be big, small, but a good HR director, the top guy who is part of the company it can be big, small, but a good HR director, the top guy who is part of the board, should not be involved in that part of the business.

Speaker 3 35:31

He should be involved in the business, in the people side of the business, having the right people, making sure that the promising youngsters in the company, or even middle-aged, it doesn't matter how young they are, and they have determined that these guys can create a bigger job not a bad, a bigger job or whatever that they get the right training to be able to be. When they step in the shop they're ready for it. So the training part, selection training part, assisting the CEO that to me is HR and that's absolutely key, I think, in any industry, but certainly in the service industry, but also in the making industry. In Heinz you make things the same applies in many ways. Make things the same applies in many ways. So make a split between the factory and what is called HR virtually in every company, and the rest.

Speaker 1 36:33

There's been a big trend in the last few years to talk about chief people officers rather than HR directors. Maybe that's because they are realizing what you're saying.

Speaker 3 36:42

Years ago. I made a speech years ago. Hopefully things have changed and there were about 700 people there.

Speaker 1 36:50

Hr 700, yeah.

Speaker 3 36:53

HR practitioners and my theme was whatever you know. A bit like now the role of HR we're talking about and I said every company says people are my biggest. A bit like now the role of HR we're talking about and I said every company says people are my biggest asset. Every bloody annual report, you need that. But how many HR directors have become CEO? If it's that important? I challenged the 700 to give me one name of an HR director who became CEO.

Speaker 3 37:26

But actually should be the case Normally speaking. If you believe in what I say and what the companies say, perhaps it's changed. Now. I'm, for 20 years or so, no longer in. I do business, but not big business. That surprised me and I believe that the people are there, but they probably spend too much time of their attention. What should be relevant for an HR director? That's what I call the fact. I'm not saying that's not relevant. That people get paid in time and the right amount and that kind of thing. It's relevant, but that's not people management. That's I call it the factory right and so so what, what?

Speaker 1 38:12

it's kind of it's a very interesting point that you're absolutely right. You do. You know, you hear of top sales and marketing people or top finance people and occasionally maybe somebody from engineering operations, depending on the nature of the industry. You very rarely hear about somebody starting their career. When I was doing my MBA, I actually really liked all the HR subjects and I was really good at them. I got really top marks, but there was a general view that it wasn't a great place to go into. This was the 90s, like the even derogatory term they used to use was human remains, they called it, and it was all these terms. So I was kind of okay, what else am I good at? I knew the sales and marketing side quite well, but it's kind of interesting that that what you say, and so so what is it that holds back? Is it just a kind of perception thing about HR people or is there something they miss in terms of understanding the essence of a business beyond just the HR role that holds them back from getting CEO jobs?

Speaker 3 39:10

It's difficult to say, because I've never met, I think, in my career, an HR guy who stepped away from the administrative things and focused much more on taking a personal interest in finding the people. You can't do it by yourself, but selecting them, training them, this advisory role.

Speaker 1 39:51

I believe the people are there, possibly, but they probably don't get attention, don't give enough attention or not allowed to give enough attention to the things which are really important in what now call people management here, yeah, I do know I actually I'm hanging out with a lot of HR people, but there are clients for many years now and I do know a few who I know of one I won't name the person and he has expressed to me that he's got a quite senior HR job today and he's still quite young, but he's thinking of running a major factory as one of his potential career moves next, which is interesting because he's kind of going I could integrate everything. I might not know all the technical details of the how the products are made, but he sees an opportunity to be a head of a factory because of his understanding of how the people side works and that. So maybe it's starting to emerge that what you're saying, that more and more HR people are seeing.

Speaker 3 40:49

You don't need to. You know I was running Heinz factories a couple of three times Heinz factories when I was in Holland when I was 35. It was part of my job at the factory. Yeah, it was quite fascinating working with the workers' council. That's why I probably learned that much that the best ideas came from the workflow Not all of them, but there are some crazy things, but if you can pick them up, that probably came in running this factory. I also learned that not everybody likes change. There was a period that everybody had kept more job fulfillment and changing and then the people came to me through the workers' council. I actually went personally to the workers' council once a month because you hear a lot of things and it's very useful. But in Holland, by the way, the, the workers council, is not selected or let's call it whatever unions. But yeah, through the people. Yeah, it's really representative, the real representative, the people. Yes, they'll listen to their mates, to their whatever, and then you hear a hell of a lot.

Speaker 3 42:01

So so, you hear things, what is going wrong and what helps, and it's, I don't know a ready machine. I don't know how a plane works. I haven't got a clue. It doesn't really matter. There are other people knowing that. Yes, but you have knowing enough that it exists and that it has to work well, and things like that. Now look at numbers to see if a machine doesn't work well, and then you can find out why. But you don't have to do it yourself. That's not the point. So I believe that that might be a very good move for that guy or girl To get that experience in the business.

Speaker 1 42:39

Absolutely, because it will set them on.

Speaker 3 42:41

And if he's got enough understanding of what's happening in the factory, he will do them on. And if he's got enough understanding of what's happening in the factory, he will do a fantastic job if he's a good HL guy yep, no, no, I'm.

Speaker 1 42:50

I'm going to be curious, but now just wanted to touch before we finish. I wanted to touch on another part of your career because it was had a different twist to it. So you, when you left DHL, you got the phone call to help a former national airline, with Sabina, and that must have been quite a fascinating because you were more or less getting to what would be traditionally retirement age. But here you get this new challenge. Tell us what it was like to walk into. This was just after 9-11, right. So the airline industry was in turmoil, not just because of that, but you also had the Ryanair's approach in the world creating all sorts of havoc on running cheap fares and all this. So what was it like to go in there? You were there a couple of years to set that up and reestablish. Yeah, you set up. You had to establish a new culture. You had to get a new way of doing things. Tell us what that was like, walking in there, and what you learned from that experience.

Strategies for Building Successful Networks

Speaker 3 43:48

Yeah, it's not so much what I learned, it's more what I applied Right, first of all, the. So the way we went about it is that and a few stories there. So, together with a Belgian HR guy actually, we decided to start. I decided to start interviewing people, so I got a list of the managers.

Speaker 1 44:17

Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:20

Submanagers, I don't know. Probably in a week I started at seven in the morning to eight in the evening. Everybody had an hour and we asked them. The company went bust. So what should I do? All right, so first of all, everybody came with a plan, got a job Right Because they had a plan or she had a plan. Yeah, that was quite fascinating. Some of the plans were good. At least there's a plan.

Speaker 1 44:52

Right, they had some idea of how the future might look like. Basically.

Speaker 3 44:56

It should look like they weren't waiting for you to just rescue them.

Speaker 1 44:59

They had some ideas.

Speaker 3 45:02

So that was fascinating. Then I got my ideas through DHL I believe a courier is the ambassador of the company certainly the document business, which was still big at that time, much bigger than the parcel business. So and that's funny I decided to make the cabin crew part of the marketing department. Right, and was not allowed. The rules are that the captain in the plane is the boss and cannot be part of the marketing department operational. The rules why this rule exists, I haven't got a clue, but that's the way it is For security. Perhaps you understand because you know the cabin crew if something happens in a plane the cabin crew is responsible. So that part you understand. But as far as I'm concerned, so it was not allowed. So officially it wasn't allowed. But it became the marketing department of the company. They had custom events, everything was with the crew. They enjoyed it, they enjoyed life, they wanted to make something new. I think that helped a lot.

Speaker 1 46:13

So was this? Because they basically were dealing with the customer every day of the week and they knew all the pros and cons.

Speaker 3 46:21

And there are always complaints. The most I hated as a customer is to get you have a complaint, you get a standard letter. So certainly in the startups when the plane were half empty, there was hardly money. Every complaint many I followed up personally or senior staff nobody got a standard letter. We had to explain things. Not everything was. You know. It's a sure start. So that created, I think, a kind of loyalty. Then the amazing thing is that what helped a lot is that these ex-Sabina guys they were, they knew Africa, they knew it. They had been there forever. They knew Africa and working in Africa is not that easy. Right Again, like the DHL guys in Africa, they knew how to work in Africa. These guys knew it. So what actually saved Brussels Airlines is this knowledge of Africa and the possibility to start flying to Africa again out of Brussels, Because within Europe very, very difficult to survive to make money. That helped. So I recruited somebody from DHL who knew more about planes than I did. He did the operation.

Speaker 1 47:43

That was Peter Davis. Yeah, know, he did the operation COO. That was Peter Peter Davis. Yeah, because he was originally a pilot in his early days he was a pilot in his early days and then he ran big parts of DHL for you yeah.

Speaker 3 47:52

And I knew him through DHL obviously, so he also understood that spirit, is DHL guy, so he knows the spirit of DHL. And again, as a small company, uh, we were not big enough to become part of one of the big groups, but you had. You needed co-chairs, you needed feeding for the africa, because they're not that people out of belgium will fly to africa. You need people from all over Europe to fly to Africa, so you need feeding, not just on Brussels Airlines aircraft but all around. So we did partnerships co-chairs, as it's called with various companies, very successful, not always. I tried to get a coach with my friends out of out of Hong Kong and he says Rob, you're a nice guy, but I fly to Amsterdam, I fly to Paris, I fly to Frankfurt, I fly to London. Why the hell would I fly to Brussels? It's difficult to give an answer on that one right, okay, you're not always successful.

Speaker 1 49:04

No.

Speaker 3 49:08

And that's the way we built it, and I believe strongly in getting service. I mean, you know, quite honestly, I don't fly this airline that I created myself anymore, certainly not in Europe. I fly on a convocation. I always think it's crazy this food issue. First of all, the food issue. What costs money? Is the people in the plane, the air hostess? This food costs two euro or something. It air hostess, yes, this food, it costs two euro or something. It makes people happy. So I, you know, Ryanair is not. You know, don't try to become a Ryanair because you're not Ryanair.

Speaker 1 49:54

No, I mean. And their operating model allows Ryanair to operate efficiently.

Speaker 3 50:00

It doesn't have a legacy, no but even Ryanair doesn't make money on flying. They make money on all the other things. But anyway, don't try to become Ryanair. You're not Ryanair. Fly as efficient as possible. You know, have fast turnarounds, things like that. That can all be organized, that's operational. You don't have to sit two hours on the ground somewhere, not necessary. So get more out of your asset, get more out of your aircraft, fly more with your aircraft. But that's why you save money, but not on a cup of coffee, by the way, no no.

Speaker 3 50:34

Because the air hostess is there anyway. You have to security, so why can't she? You know what the hell cost a cup of coffee, mean that's so I'm against this, and when I was there, we never saved on a cup. The same, if a company goes so a saving method you're not allowed to take coffee out of a machine anymore like that would save the company. Perhaps it makes you conscious that something has to be done. The excellent money doesn't save the company, and an unhappy employee is not a very good employee.

Speaker 1 51:12

I had a professor at business school used to talk about that being fiddling at the margins because I mean, you're dealing with small little things. The old story was the post-it notes with small little things. The old story was the post-it notes when you were told you weren't allowed to use post-it notes and people looked around and thought there was money being wasted way more money wasted on other things, on other things. Yes, it was a message, but it didn't always land so well.

Speaker 3 51:34

Yeah, it doesn't make people very happy. I remember I was not a loud item, but I did it anyway working as a steward in one of our planes.

Speaker 1 51:47

Oh, you joined the aircraft and worked as a steward.

Speaker 3 51:49

Yeah, I worked as a steward and it was fascinating. I never forgot one was funny because we had a bit of what do you call it jumping up and down, turbulence, yeah, turbulence, and some people, some lady was crying and her husband was, anyway. But there were two old ladies and I said would you like a cup of coffee? And they said what I don't know. I said it's free, I'll be, I'll be, I'll be. I'm sure these people fly Brussels Airlines. If they're alive, they're still flying Brussels Airlines.

Speaker 1 52:29

For the cup of coffee.

Speaker 3 52:29

For the cup of coffee. Ah, they went through the roof. They got a free cup of coffee.

Speaker 1 52:34

Yeah, well, I just flew back from Los Angeles in the back of the plane and it's very welcome to get some food it's you know and to get something to drink and feel and not feel to have to think, well, do I did, how much is this going to cost me? And and and everything else that goes with it. Yeah, I wanted to just quickly ask you about something because because it's a thread, red thread, the field rouge that often runs through, and I thought about it the other day before this interview. Um, I've always thought you're a great networker. Everything you talk about is I knew this guy, I tried to get the Hong Kong guy to fly into Brussels, I went out and I spent time with the Cabernet. How important is it to build these networks if you're trying?

Speaker 3 53:17

to build a career. I'm not really a networker, I think, but you, of course, you're know that people forget you possibly, but being around again, meeting the people, meeting customers of the company, meeting, in the case of the airline business, the other airline guys and, in the case of DHL, by Hong Kong because we started up with Cathay Pacific flying first at the time blah, blah, blah they. If you're honest and fair, then people will receive you, will talk to you. Yeah, it's not friends, but it's people you know. We'll receive you, we'll talk to you. Yeah, yeah, it's not friends, but it's people you know. And you have to be known as somebody who's straight, who's honest, who you can work with, who you can believe in and that's the way I react as well.

Speaker 3 54:25

I remember, you know, that one of the things I did after DHL was creating this fund a fund a fund to bring American technology to Europe. I had a fantastic advisory board. Anyway, the first day we had HSBC as a funding partner.

Speaker 1 54:52

Yeah.

Speaker 3 54:54

And the first day we went out Monte Carlo and freaking planes came down in September on the Twin Towers yeah, we were sitting there first call, so the thing collapsed. But so we never did. My father continued and my wife died nine years ago. He said, Rob, we'll be vice chairman. That's why I'm still working, I'm still doing these private equity things, I still do some consulting things like that.

Speaker 2 55:27

Yeah.

Speaker 3 55:27

Not for the money but hopefully keep the mind and I still do sport.

Speaker 1 55:32

Yes, you were playing in some what was it the under 90s? Or what was it Over 80s, over 86. World tennis.

Speaker 3 55:39

I just played the world championships over 86 for the Dutch team Last tennis. I just played the World Championships over 86 for the Dutch team. Last year I played individual now for the Dutch over 85 team. It's fun yeah.

Speaker 1 55:50

I have some friends who are now in their 70s and they also keep working, not because they need the money, but to keep them stimulated and to keep them sharp. So that's probably a useful thing for anybody who's getting older, just to take into account, because you're still, I mean. This is why I asked you. We had such a great lunch there a couple of weeks ago and I just thought this would and I think, on behalf of the listeners, I would say this has been quite inspirational to listen to you tell your story in such a yeah, in such a yeah. It's such a vibrant way. Um, just to to lead, to finish up, if there are people out there thinking, yeah, that I'd like to have I, you know, I'd like to have this career and grow my career and yes, say younger people, what would be some advice you'd give them as they're making progress? What are some of the things? Just to synthesize what we've talked about, what are a couple of things that you'd want people to take away from this conversation?

Speaker 3 56:45

Well, I think for people who want to make a career, start looking for another job where you get bored in what you're doing because it becomes a routine. So don't exaggerate. Try to find a job within the company you are, if not outside. It happens for people in the HL, it happens for people in DHL. It happens for people in IELTS, it happens.

Speaker 1 57:07

So a job you enjoy. A job you enjoy. Always enjoy what you do. If you're bored, stop doing it, find something else.

Speaker 3 57:13

Yeah. Secondly, I would say don't move because you get more money. Don't move. Only move when you think you will enjoy yourself more or you will learn something more or whatever. Just moving for money and doing the same, I would not advise it's helpful to have it. That's not the point. The point is, when you're young, when you're 30, you don't have to Try to enjoy and try to learn. Even now, today, I learn, I learn things. I do some consulting for a marketplace right now. About a year ago I didn't even know what a marketplace was. Now I do consulting for them Right. So make sure you're doing a job that you enjoy.

Speaker 1 58:02

Didn't even know where the marketplace was, I would do a consulting for them, right, yeah, so so make sure you're doing a job that you enjoy, and I guess if you're enjoying it, you're going to learn and that'll help you perform well and I guess the money will follow. Money will follow if you're good at it. Okay, rob. So thanks for sharing your insights, tips and wisdom with our listeners today.

Speaker 3 58:23

That's been fun, Thanks.

Speaker 1 58:25

Jay Thanks. Next, on Leading People.

Qualities of Great Leaders

Speaker 2 58:31

And I'll tell you, the worst leader in my personal experience wasn't somebody who was trying to set out to be evil. This was just a really underdeveloped human being who, you know, the reality of who that person was was just bleeding out onto everybody all the time and there was no intention. But my life was hell. My and I don't mean my work life. This is really important. This is why the quality of our lives hangs in the balance. I don't mean life at work was hard. I mean my life was hard, the endurance that my wife had to go through in the evening while I processed, trying to figure out how I'm going to survive this leader. What if we could get all those hours back? What if we could get all that emotion back? And so when I think about what would you? You know to your question what do organizations need to understand?

Speaker 1 59:22

My next guest is Tim Spiker, author of the book the Only Leaders Worth Following why Some Leaders Succeed, others Fail, and how the Quality of Our Lives Hangs in the Balance. Tim reveals the moment that sparked his passion for leadership development and shares insights from his own research into the principles that make great leaders. Plus, we delve into the balance of vulnerability and emotional health in leadership and the profound impact great leaders have on our well-being. You won't want to miss out on this enlightening discussion on. What Tim's research shows are the qualities that truly matter in leadership. Until next time.