Leading People
Gerry Murray talks to leading people about leading people. Get insights and tips from thought leaders about how to bring out the best in yourself and others.
Leading People
Navigating Career Challenges with Caroline Dowd-Higgins
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Ever wondered what it takes to make a radical career shift?
My guest, Caroline Dowd-Higgins, did just that, and her journey is nothing short of inspiring.
In this episode, Caroline opens up about her battle with workplace burnout, the pivotal moment that prompted her to leave a demanding executive role, and how she leveraged her transferable skills to find a more fulfilling path.
This conversation is a goldmine for anyone grappling with career stressors or contemplating a major career pivot.
Drawing from her latest book, "Your Career Advantage: Overcome Challenges to Achieve a Rewarding Work Life," Caroline offers practical guidance on navigating career transitions, recognizing red flags in unfulfilling roles, and making informed decisions about staying or moving on.
The episode also explores the transformative power of a resilient work culture. Caroline discusses how company values and flexible work schedules can significantly impact individual and organizational success. And, we look into future work trends and the importance of aligning work schedules with personal productivity peaks.
Caroline also has a special offer for our listeners.
Curious?
Tune in now to this treasure trove of insights and actionable advice for achieving a balanced and rewarding career.
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Wide Circle
Welcome to episode 57 of Leading People with me, Gerry Murray. This episode is brought to you by Wide Circle, helping you make better talent decisions. To learn more, visit widecircleeu. That's W-I-D-E-C-I-R-C-L-E dot E-U.
Speaker 2:C-I-R-C-L-E, dot E-U. But if you wake up every day with that pit in your stomach thinking, oh, I don't want to go to work, or you have the Sunday night blues and you're dreading Monday morning, that's a sign.
Speaker 1:In today's episode, we're diving deep into the journey of career transformation with Caroline Dowd-Higgins. In today's episode, we're diving deep into the journey of career transformation with Caroline Dowd-Higgins. Ever wondered how to pivot from a challenging career path to one that brings joy and fulfillment? Curious about how to navigate workplace burnout and thrive professionally while honoring your personal well-being? And what does it take to future-proof your career in an ever-evolving world of work? Caroline shares her insights on these pressing topics drawing from her extensive experience as an employee, coach, speaker and author. So let's hear what she has to say. Caroline Dowd-Higgins, welcome to Leading People.
Speaker 1:Thank you, gerry, I'm delighted to be with you today. Great, I came across your work a while back and I really hooked on to this topic of careers and you know it's talked about a lot. I have it with clients that I work with. You know what type of careers are people having today and you know, are they leading somewhere, are they people being challenged and everything else? So it's gaining more and more prominence. So I thought this would be a great topic for my listeners, and you also have a new book out, which we'll get to shortly. But first, how did you get here? Like what person, place, an event or you know stands out in your journey to where you are today? Or was there like an epiphany moment? And why did you choose this career path that you're on currently?
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for asking. I'm delighted and honored to be with you today and your global audience. And I'll tell you, jerry, my career path has been rather circuitous. I call it the zig and the zag and I'll help our global audience understand that I started on one very particular path and then went in a very different direction. So, long story short, I'll give you my history.
Speaker 2:I started out my career as an opera singer and absolutely loved that career. I'm based in the US and had wonderful experiences performing and singing, mostly throughout Europe and some in the United States, and it was an extraordinary experience. But for those out there who are performing artists or in the world of music making or theater making or opera, we know that it can be a feast or famine existence. And that was quite a roller coaster to be on for 10 years existence. And that was quite a roller coaster to be on for 10 years. And, as much as I loved it, I really started getting frustrated, being known as the starving artist. There were some wonderful, robust times where I had a lot of work and then there were very slim times where it was extremely difficult. And I'll tell you, I'm going to be very honest and vulnerable with you and your audience. I really was at a crossroads and I had a meltdown after 10 years giving it my best in this career, thinking I'm working so incredibly hard yet I'm not able to make ends meet. And that was the epiphany and that was the catalyst for change. And Jerry, again, very long story short, I had wonderful opportunities to work with a career coach who helped me peel back the layers and understand what else I did well and investigate what other interests I had, which led me to what I call my accidental second act, and that is in the world of career and professional development. So for 20 years I have been working as a coach, as a speaker and as an author and a trainer, and it has been the most extraordinary career shift that has brought me great joy and great satisfaction.
Speaker 1:And just looking at your background a topic I guess we'll get to a bit later on is this notion of transferable skills right? So that you know this can be. Sometimes people can feel that they only have their skills are only applicable in one context, and I think we live in a world now where this is probably less and less true. However, let's get to the book. So what is you've written? I think two books isn't that right, but what is the title of? Well, I kind of like the, really like the title of your first one as well, but what's the title of your second book for our listeners?
Speaker 2:I'll tell the title of the second book, but I will share the first one too, because I'm very proud of that book and the title. But the new book is called your Career Advantage Overcome Challenges to Achieve a Rewarding Work Life. And very simply, jerry, I'll tell you, as the world navigated the pandemic and now the post-pandemic journey, the world of work has changed dramatically. Out of necessity, during the pandemic many, many workers were forced into remote work options and people got used to that around the world and really enjoyed that flexibility. So there's a real struggle now in the world of work and the challenge is overworking to the point of exhaustion and debilitation and even burnout.
Speaker 2:So this book is really an opportunity for the listener, the reader there's an audio version as well but for the reader to think about a day-to-day challenge that they might have at work. And this is a playbook. It's a bit like having me as your own personal executive coach to say, hey, I'm having a tough day with my boss. Well, there's a chapter for that, how to navigate that conversation. Or I'm interested in advancing, or I'm looking for a promotion. There's a chapter there to really walk you through what you can do to be empowered in your life and career.
Speaker 1:These are all real issues that I'm sure already our listeners are going huh. I can identify with those types of issues. Let's start with who is your target audience for this book, ben? Have you thought about a specific type of person, or are you finding that certain type of person is really attracted to what you have to say?
Speaker 2:In my practice as an executive coach and a speaker and author. I have a niche market working with women, but it's been beautiful to see, as the post-pandemic journey has evolved, how men are really receptive to this as well. So I'm delighted that I work with people of all genders, but the beauty here is that these are folks who are in the world of work. Most of them are not entry level. These are folks who are mid-career all the way through, those who are considering retirement, and I believe that that span of time means that people have a lot of responsibility at work and they're also trying to navigate life and career. And, jerry, that's the biggest struggle that we're having right now and personally, I was at a point where I was helping people enjoy their career and love their life. You don't have to swap or trade one for the other. You can do them simultaneously.
Speaker 1:Enjoying the insights and inspiration. Make sure to catch every episode by subscribing to Leading People on your favorite podcast platform, and please take a moment to rate us. Your feedback makes all the difference. Remember to follow us on our social media channels and join our LinkedIn group for more content and connection with like-minded professionals. Stay connected, stay informed and let's grow together. You talked about the overworking, which is probably something that's going to interfere with somebody's ability to enjoy their life, and maybe even trying to get the separation, the balance, right, but you mentioned this concept of work addiction and this idea that we're kind of we get addicted to work, and what's the background to this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm so glad we're talking about this. It's a really important topic and let me frame this by telling you that the World Health Organization has designated burnout, stress and overwhelm as the biggest threats in our world today for people's health, but they also defined burnout as a workplace issue, not a self-care or a personal health issue. The health impact is very debilitating and can be very negative and cause health and wellness issues, but they stem from work, and work addiction for me was like an addiction in any situation, whether it's substance abuse or gambling or overspending, and it's this perpetual need to do something. I love my work, but that wasn't an excuse to overwork to the point of missing my life. My comfort zone was working. That was something that I always knew I could do extraordinarily well, and I literally shut out relationships and the people and the experiences in my life.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not blaming anyone. I'm not looking for pity. I'm not wanting people to say, oh, poor you. I realized that was my own issue, but I finally got clarity because I realized to what end there's a point of diminishing returns and I was working so much that the quality of my work suffered and certainly the quality of my life suffered. So I had this aha moment, this epiphany, after the pandemic, and I left a full-time executive role in an organization that I really enjoyed. I was earning excellent money, so, by all accounts, I was successful in career, but I was very unsuccessful in my personal life, and that mattered to me. So that was my catalyst to change and in 2022, I decided to get off that proverbial treadmill and now I'm in my own business full time and I'm enjoying life and career, so I find that to be a real success story.
Speaker 1:You use a very nice metaphor in your TED Talk about being on a road with lots of red lights. Would you like to elaborate on how that plays out for people and what they can do about it?
Speaker 2:I would actually and you know it's very interesting because the reality is there are people that struggle all the time. I have another phrase that I used in my Ted talk and I say the suckiness is real and let me let me share that colloquialism. Right Things happen. You have a difficult boss, you're not earning the salary you want or you're frustrated with your work environment, but the suffering is optional. And back to the red light green light analogy. So often people are on the wrong road and they're not in a career where they're playing to their strengths or there are outside factors that are impacting them and impacting their wellness in a negative way. So I realized I was on the road with all the red lights and I needed to get on a better road, and that shift helped me thrive in my career and also live a wonderful life.
Speaker 1:When I was listening to it, I was thinking about the times in my life where I've stayed too long on the road with the red lights, so I think that's probably something that a lot of people out there might identify with. So the book has six main sections in it. So I think what could be very interesting now would be let's just walk through the six sections. Of course, please go out and buy the book if you want to learn more, but just for the purpose of helping people understand why it has these six sections and what people can get out of each, because I think each section can be probably digested on its own in a sense, because it's a playbook right idea. So it may not be that all sections apply to all people. So let's let's go through um each section briefly and just explain what our listeners would get out of each section by reading it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I'd love to set this up, jerry, because I think the context there will help our listeners understand why I have six sessions. During the pandemic, I was very active on LinkedIn I still am, but I was writing a LinkedIn newsletter a blog of sorts every week and I was writing it in response to what I was hearing from coaching clients and from colleagues at the time and the struggles that people had. So I knew these were real and I knew these were relatable. These were common scenarios that so many of us experienced and that's what really led me to respond with these articles that had resources. So after a year, after we really ended the official pandemic and got back to work and got back to life and a more sense of normalcy, I realized there's something here and I want to compile these articles, these blogs, into a book and add more content so people never feel alone when they have those career stressors. So, for example, people never feel alone when they have those career stressors.
Speaker 2:So, for example, the first section is titled moving up or moving on. Should I stay or should I go? And I imagine there are people nodding their heads in agreement around the world that are saying, oh my goodness, I've been there Again. Maybe it's a tricky colleague, or maybe you're not earning the compensation that you want, or maybe the company values don't align, or, as I said earlier, maybe you're just not in the right role where you're playing to your strengths. You're on that road with all of those red lights. So that is all about how do I think? Am I in the right place and is this where I can do my very best work? Am I in the right?
Speaker 1:place and is this where I can do my very best work. The second so how would people know if they, how would people know if they were in the right place? Just what's a pointer or two, what are one or two signs to tell them you're in the right place or maybe you're not in the right place? What are one or two typical things you keep hearing about?
Speaker 2:Such a good question. So the first thing I would say is values alignment. Does the organization hold the same beliefs and values that you do? And by that I mean, are they honoring what you need to do well in that work environment? A really savvy mentor shared with me decades ago the most important question that we all need to ask every day is this the place where I can do my best work? And if you can answer that question, if you're in an organization where you are empowered to do your best work, then you're in a good place.
Speaker 2:But if you wake up every day with that pit in your stomach thinking, oh, I don't want to go to work, or you have the Sunday night blues and you're dreading Monday morning, that's a sign and we're going to go back to that red light analogy. It's time to be more aware and really think about is this the right place where I can thrive? So values, I would say, are very important. And then the second part of that, and I alluded to this earlier are you playing to your strengths? Part of that, and I alluded to this earlier are you playing to your strengths? So many people have a performance evaluation that's negative and a boss or a supervisor is constantly helping them try to fix something or improve upon something. Now, I believe we're all human and we all have an opportunity to grow and there is an opportunity to polish our strengths. But if we're in the wrong role it may be that we're not well suited to bring our strengths and our skills to that role that misalignment happens and you have the ability to say I'm in the wrong role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's an evolutionary thing here, because you talked earlier when you talk about values, beliefs and even being in the right or wrong role Over time. If leaders change in your organizations, they can shift the whole culture and value sets by their values and the people they place around them. So it could be that five years ago it all was hunky-dory for you because this was the world you wanted to. You came into the organization. Most people go into organizations quite enthusiastic and the question is always what happens to create a situation where they don't feel enthusiastic anymore after? Sometimes it can only be six months, but sometimes it's two, three years. So, yeah, I think there's something there that you need to be. It's that you're always in a dynamic context and it can be that you have to pay attention to signals in the, in the environment that that say things might change. Check in with your values, check in with your beliefs, check in with what you're being asked to do. Am I, am I able to be the best version of myself, right? You?
Speaker 2:nailed. You nailed it and Jerry. I'll pull one more thread there because I also want to give everyone permission to change your mind. So sometimes it's those external things or the evolution, to use your excellent word. But sometimes we think I'm bored or I'm in a routine or a rut and it's monotonous and I need something more stimulating, something more challenging. That's okay. Often we grow out of an organization or we grow out of a role and we're looking for change to honor our strengths in a different way.
Speaker 1:So that's a nice segue into section three, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. Section two was thrive where you are right. How do I focus on where I am and what I can do? Well, but the next one, section three, is challenges that suck, using the colloquialism. And you know, it's really important for us to understand that work is difficult. We spend more waking hours at work than we do with our families. When you think about sleeping a good seven to eight hours a night, typically we're in a work situation nine hours, sometimes 10 hours, and for those that are overworking, many, many more. So how do we navigate those challenges? I can't tell you, jerry, how many people come to me and say I have a difficult boss and that boss is really impacting their, their growth, their health and wellness and the success in their organization. So I have a lot of content there how to deal with tricky individuals. You know, working is like being in a family. Sometimes they can be dysfunctional and we need to learn how to communicate in such a way that we can get along with people.
Speaker 1:And all the research shows that the boss has a profound impact on a person's, how a person feels and everything else at work. And I guess that might even be a segue into the fourth section, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So the fourth section is well-being at work, and I'm reading this right from my book how to Excel in your Career and Honor your Health, and, jerry, you know, I think it's really interesting because for decades people were working so intensely and they weren't thinking about their health. Again, the pandemic and so many things that are happening in the world have given us a new lens to think about honoring our health and wellness, and this overwork phenomenon is global. It's not just a US scenario. It's certainly prevalent in the US, but the data tells us it is a global phenomenon and so many organizations were burning and churning their employees, saying, look, if somebody goes down, they're replaceable, we'll hire somebody else.
Speaker 2:Personally, I think that's unethical. I don't think it's an appropriate way to treat human beings. It's more than just the bottom line and the profitability of an organization, but it tells each and every one of us we need to take control over our health and well-being. And there are savvy organizations now that are prioritizing wellness and they know that it's also increasing productivity, it's increasing retention and it increases engagement, which all adds up to a great business model and happy and healthy human beings.
Speaker 1:I probably just as a slight retro in this, when you were in a cast member in an opera, it the whole cast gets shaky when when a key member or anybody even who has a role to play is is not available or all of a sudden gone, because now it's not just what they did. Specifically, is that whole learning and everything that went into everybody participating, collaborating in the final production right?
Speaker 2:You know, as a fellow musician, you know it's an ensemble. Even if you're a soloist, you often have an accompanist who is supporting you in an opera, you have a conductor, you have a full orchestra, everybody down to the people that are helping with the sets and the costumes. So it is very much an ensemble effort and I agree with you. I liken that to the world of work in non-musical scenarios. So the way we behave with our colleagues matters.
Speaker 1:Right, and that creates the vibe. So I think we're now into section.
Speaker 2:Yes. So the next chapter, the next section, I should say, is the office vibe. Company culture matters and, jerry, I'll tell you it's really interesting. So I am part of Generation X, I'm in my 50s and I would tell you that it's really fascinating. I've learned so much from our younger generations, first the millennials, who are younger than Gen X, and now Gen Z, the 20-somethings, who are very much in the world of work, and I'm grateful for these younger professionals because they've said very clearly we want to work in cultures that celebrate well-being, that think about the world of work, looks at a work culture.
Speaker 2:Years ago and I'm not saying this to be negative, but our baby boomer folks that are older than me were my mentors and my sponsors and it was all about the post-war generation of work hard, put your head down, you will do great work and people will recognize you. Hard, put your head down, you will do great work and people will recognize you. Things have changed. It may have worked in the baby boomer generation, but it has changed dramatically now. So that company culture of honoring the individuals who work for the organization really matters. This concept of loyalty is out the window. My father has passed away, but he worked 45 years for one organization. That is unheard of today, that kind of loyalty, and it's both ways. So culture is what helps people stay in an organization longer.
Speaker 1:Coming up next, caroline delves into what it means to future-proof your career and shares invaluable advice on how organizations can create workplaces that honor both productivity and well-being, plus learn how to leverage your strengths to navigate a fulfilling career journey. So back to our conversation. Okay, and then I suppose this last section is really about knitting all that together, or synthesizing it, and you tell our listeners what you call it, Future proofing your career.
Speaker 2:And, Jerry, you know there's no exact science to say that you are not vulnerable to be laid off or let go in difficult economic times. But there are savvy things that all of us can do, and the lens here is not only for the individual, it's for the leaders and for the organizations at large. How do we create workplaces where people can do their best work? How do we navigate this desire on the part of individuals to have flexibility? The data tells us that flexibility is more sought after than monetary salary. That's how important it is to have that flexibility. And the big rub, the big struggle right now many organizations offered hybrid and remote opportunities in the beginning of the pandemic and the years that followed, and many of those companies are now calling all their people back. And there's a huge, huge rub. The reality is they have real estate, they have leased office spaces or they own buildings. So I get the business model, but people are clamoring saying flexibility matters. So this really dives deeply into saying how do we create a future workplace where people want to be?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so those are six compelling topics that form the structure of the book. When somebody goes into the book, then what types of things can they expect to get out of those sections?
Speaker 2:So it's very practical. It's very hands-on and they're short, pithy chapters. I would tell you, Jerry, someone can sit down and read the book cover to cover, just like they can listen to the audiobook cover to cover. But I, they can listen to the audio book cover to cover, but I like to think of it as something that sits on your desk where you dog ear or you highlight or you have post-it notes and you flip through when you need something. So let's say you're going for a new role and you're up for a promotion, Go to that chapter and at the end of that very brief chapter there are pro tips which are very succinct and pithy, action steps that you can put into practice.
Speaker 2:This is very actionable. It's not theoretical. This is what we do in theory. It's very much roll up your sleeves. How do you get this done? Which is really what coaching is all about. Yeah, so there's an element of not being totally prescriptive but suggestive and trying things out. See that these things help you reframe a situation or make progress. I guess this is where design thinking. Sometimes people are frozen because they think I don't know exactly what to do and I believe, try something, Try a baby step. You don't have to have it all figured out. I call this a bias to action. Instead of sitting back and thinking about it for weeks and days and months, consider what you can do today in a very small way. That'll move that needle.
Speaker 1:So a topic that it's probably worth just touching on again because you mentioned it earlier on. It used to be a real sort of stigma topic, but today I have more and more conversations where, oh, where's such and such. Oh, he's on burnout. Uh, I had lunch with a former colleague, a young lady that worked for me 10, 12 years ago, and, you know, after a few minutes she's like well, I, I had a burnout last year, but I'm okay, I'm getting back to where I want to be now.
Speaker 1:I'm, you know, and and this has become more and more like this is real the thing is, as you said, it's an organizational thing. However, most of what I'm seeing is let's help the individual, right, so it's all about the individual. And if somebody oh, they've had it, let's put them on a program because obviously they couldn't cope or they couldn't do this. And yet, on the other side of that coin, the more and more I've looked into it, the more and more I've read about it, the more and more I've spoken to people about it it's it's, it's, it's not necessarily that the person if this, there are the structure of they.
Speaker 1:Always there's a saying that says structure drives behavior. And in an organization, you have buildings and you have organization structures etc. And the structure will also drive the flow of work and how it lands on people etc. So can you speak a little bit about what you've been seeing now this last couple of years, as this phenomenon has evolved but also become a little bit more acceptable? And what are you seeing? How are people emerging from this? People you know that go through it. What sort of patterns are you seeing there?
Speaker 2:So a few thoughts about organizations. So let's define burnout and remember the World Health Organization defines burnout as a workplace issue, not a self-care issue. So I want to help our listeners understand. It's an imbalance in resources, whether it is human resources, colleagues, personnel, technology, finances, tools, whatever you need to do your job, and I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:Often organizations reduce their workforce, they lay people off and then they redistribute the work from the people who are gone to the existing people that are remaining, so that one individual, as an example, now has the workload of three people. They're earning the same money, they have the same title and they have just as much time to do three times the work, which leads to overworking. Much time to do three times the work, which leads to overworking. So then they end up working more hours, they're working around the clock, the stress and the anxiety builds and that's what leads to burnout.
Speaker 2:But I want to share with you this has to change at the organizational level Because, as much as it might have made financial sense in the beginning to let people go and pile all that work on the remaining people, that's not a long-term or a sustainable solution. Eventually those people that are burned out and exhausted will leave and it costs a lot of money to find a new person to onboard them and train them and bring that back up to speed. And I said earlier, I also just think it's not the right thing to do ethically when we think about how we treat human beings. So I hope that companies will start to embrace that. But the real systemic change that needs to happen here is a holistic look at the workforce and the workload.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's a nice segue into a question here. What does the future of work look like from where you're sitting, for companies and talent? And we don't necessarily just have these issues of overwork and burnout. We now have the emerging phenomenon of AI coming into the workplace. So, just when you look at this and none of us can predict the future, of course, however, we can look at patterns that are conditioning how the future might evolve. So what are you noticing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I hear you that none of us can predict the future, but there are futurists and there are researchers and there are many entities that are really looking at trends and predicting what's happening, and one that I follow is called the Future Forum, and I learned a lot and interviewed several individuals from the Future Forum in my book, and one of the biggest issues that I mentioned earlier is this idea of having work flexibility when people have lives and, let's say, they have children and they need to tend to the children or elderly parents. I mean, there are so many things that are happening in our personal lives. The reality is it's often difficult to navigate both challenges at work and in our personal life. So something that is experimented with right now I'm not sure how much it's happening in the rest of the world, but I'm seeing it start to evolve in the US is a four-day work week, where individuals are thinking about a shorter work week but intensive time, and they know they've got that long weekend ahead of them and that is aspirational, something that they're excited about. So they're going to hunker down and really focus during those four work days and the early research tells us they're incredibly productive and they're well rested because they actually had more time away to reflect and process and enjoy their lives out of work.
Speaker 2:I'll also share, jerry. In the manufacturing industry around the world we have seen what we call three shifts, so three eight-hour shifts in a 24-hour cycle. For generations People have worked overnight and they just knew that those three shifts were excellent for high productivity. I think in the knowledge economy and what we call white-collar economy in the US, we should then think about that too when you think about your sweet spot.
Speaker 2:Some people are early risers, they're what we call early birds, and they're very sharp in the morning. Others are night owls and they're most productive at night when the business is closed. So how about being creative and taking a risk and thinking of a 24-hour clock when people could plug in at their very best time? Of course there have to be some collaboration hours when everybody comes together, so it can't be completely random, but let's honor efficiency, engagement and when individuals do their very best work. So those are two nods to how we might experiment, looking at the future, to really honor how people can do their best, best work at the future to really honor how people can do their best, best work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it reminds me a little bit about I don't know whether you're familiar with the London Business School professor Linda Gratton's work. She has a very forward thinking and right at the early part of the pandemic she wrote an article in the Harvard Business Review saying that this whole thing about whether people should work from home, how many hours and all that was not a black and white issue. A lot of it depended on and I guess this is something that is not often organizations don't always focus on but the outcomes tend to be the most important thing. What is that person there to achieve? And then how can they achieve it, rather than what are they there to do? Right, which is often the way it's interpreted.
Speaker 1:And oh, if she's there to do that or he's there to do that, they must be at their desk two days a week and then whatever. And she was pointing out back then and remember this was the early days of really trying to figure this concept of hybrid remote. Up until that point it was kind of a luxury in many organizations. You got that flexibility and then independent freelancers had that kind of flexibility by nature of their work. But all of a sudden we were confronted with it and the more people I talked about this, they keep telling me yeah, you cannot come in and just put a one size fits all on an organization.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and I remember that article actually, and it started the concept of the term presenteeism, and in the US we have a phrase called butts in seats. Right, you have to be in the office, you have to be seen. But to your point and to the great article that you referenced, the reality is it's about outcomes and what kind of work are you doing that is impactful? Just being present and being seen in the office doesn't mean that you're doing great work or that the results are there. So if we shift the mindset to outcomes versus being present in the office, great things can happen.
Speaker 2:Now let me also be clear, because I know we have a diverse global listening audience. That doesn't work in every career field. Right, in the hospitality industry, you have to be there during certain times of day. So I get it, it is a luxury often in the white collar and the knowledge industry, but it is something that we do need to investigate, because people are pushing back, saying I need more life and this career is debilitating and and that is going to be a long-term problem if we don't solve this yeah, and I mean manufacturing also has a similar dynamic where people have to be there to work on the line at the same time.
Speaker 1:You know, ok, robotics are there now, but they still need it and look. The other thing is, if you work at the front desk in a hotel, when you go home, you go home. You often don't have to worry about until you come back the next day. So, pros and cons for different ways. It's like this idea of putting different lenses to look at it different ways. It's like this idea of putting different lenses to look at it.
Speaker 1:Once again, a lot of work is being defined today and a lot of practice and interpretation of what we should be doing through that knowledge worker lens, when actually a lot of people out there are going. That doesn't apply to me. I can't relate to that. However, I think it's been fantastic talking with you and, like all good things must come to an end. So let's get to the last little couple of minutes of this conversation, and okay, so what would be some of the most important takeaways that our listeners would get from reading your book or listening to the book? What would be? A couple of things you'd hope that they would take away? Two, three things.
Speaker 2:Terry, thanks. I really appreciate the opportunity to summarize this. So, number one you always have power and often we relinquish our power in life and career. So if you're unhappy, recognize that and do something about it whether it is reading a book or engaging with a coach, or maybe even working with a sponsor in your organization to think about how you can improve that. Number two playing to your strengths really matters.
Speaker 2:If you're on that road with all of those proverbial red lights, take a step back, give yourself a chance to reflect and figure out why you're unhappy. Often we're on that treadmill of life and we don't give ourselves a pause to truly reflect. And finally, number three give yourself permission to change your mind. Quite often people have training in a certain career field, like I did as a musician. I went to college, I went to university and I studied music and it never occurred to me that I could do other things until someone else gave me permission to look at those transferable skills. So give yourself permission to change your mind as well as your career. It's never too late to consider something new.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how can people get in touch or connect with you, caroline?
Speaker 2:So, terry, the best way is to find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active on LinkedIn. I write a lot, I have a podcast of my own, I share videos and articles and blogs. So that would be a lovely way for people to connect. And I would also like to extend an offer. So, the first person that connects with me on LinkedIn and please add a little note and mention this wonderful podcast, and please add a little note and mention this wonderful podcast Leading People I will give you a single free coaching session. So that would be an honor for me to be able to reward you with a coaching session. So just make that note clear when you connect with me in LinkedIn and we'll make it happen.
Speaker 1:And I guess that will be really around the career thing and you know, do you want to spend some time reflecting and working through? So that's absolutely, absolutely brilliant offer. So those who stayed to the end now off you go and get on LinkedIn, look up Caroline Dowd-Higgins and connect with her for that special offer. Caroline Dowd-Higgins and connect with her for that special offer. So, caroline, thank you for sharing your wisdom, insights and advice with both myself and my listeners today. Jerry, thank you, it's been a pleasure. We'll be taking a short break and we'll be back in a few weeks with more insightful conversations with leading people about yes, you guessed it, leading people. Until next time.