#219 Matt Jacob - How to Increase Creativity as an Entrepreneur & Creator

Has creativity lost its soul in the social media game?

What does being original even mean anymore?

In this episode, we sit down with Matt Jacob, photographer and the host of 'The MOOD Podcast', combining artistry and dialogue to inspire creatives.

We explore the definition of creativity, the lack of originality in the era of social media, and how personal and societal status impacts creative expression. 

Matt shares his journey from flying jets to capturing life through his lens, reflecting on the importance of passions intersecting with your professional life. 

We delve into the psychological and philosophical aspects of creativity, discussing how solitude and boredom can spark true creative fire, and why being surrounded by the right influences is crucial for personal growth.

Enjoyed this deep dive into the foundations of creativity and authenticity?

Hit like, leave your thoughts in the comments, and don't forget to subscribe for more discussions with unique voices like Matt.

Matt’s Socials

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@mattyj_ay

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattyj_ay

Instagram: Darrenlee.ks

LinkedIn: Darren Lee

Twitter: Darren_ks

(00:00) Preview and Intro
(00:50) Is Creativity Dying?
(03:14) Matt’s Idea of Creativity 
(06:23) The Pursuit of a Creative 
(09:29) Chasing Status and its Downsides
(13:18) Surrounding Yourself with The Right Influence
(16:17) Detaching Creativity from Financial Gains
(21:56) Status as a Fundamental Human Driver
(29:23) Who to Learn From
(33:04) Recognizing One's Own Expertise
(37:43) Creativity Stemming from Solitude
(41:16) Entrepreneurial Rebellion and Self-education
(46:08) Mastery at The Price of Suffering
(50:53) Finding Your Passion 
(56:13) Matt's Trip to Abu Dhabi
(01:04:25) Globalisation Hurting Nature's Way of Life?

Transcript

Matt: 0:00

There's no level of status that's satisfactory right For more than a temporary period of time.

Darren: 0:06

You know, influence by Robert Cialdini breaks this down. It's like the influence of other people around us makes that elevation pitch.

Matt: 0:11

That's hugely important, isn't it? It's who you spend your time with as well, who you choose to learn from, who you have around you, because you're just a product of that at the end of the day.

Darren: 0:25

I'm trying to detach the creative side with it, with the. I need to make this work because I have like, I need to exist in the world, and that goes back to human psychology, which is like we need to fundamentally like, like, actually live, and that means we have that never-ending pursuit right, because we're so used to. Before we start this week's episode, I have one little favor to ask you. Can you please leave a five-star rating below so we can help more people every single week. Thank you, where I want to start, would you, is you think we're stripping the creativity out of the world?

Matt: 0:53

uh, it depends how you define the world, because the world is just our perception. Right, it's the. The world is exactly how an individual sees it, and so you know, if you, if you were to look through the eyes of a member of the general public in the Western world let's take a middle-class Westerner who's probably on social media five, six hours a day Uh, certainly the, the, the younger generation, because that's what they've been brought up with and you were to put them in the limelight and say and ask the same question, or at least we were to make them the subject of the question and say yes, I don't think creativity means what it used to mean. For sure, I don't think it's as authentic or as original as it used to be.

Matt: 1:44

And there's a huge difference between being unique and being original, because everything's so ubiquitous these days that we live in an age of abundance, and creativity is no different. You know, you have people doing courses on how to be creative these days and it's like well, for me, that kind of takes the meaning of being creative out of it. Right, if you, if you learn how to create ideas, then for me that is the antithesis of creativity. So like, I don't know it's a very good question to open up with. I feel like um a true creator is of more value these days.

Darren: 2:21

Put it that way the reason why I think the term like creator, like, even exists right now is because it's creative in a vacuum, right, like creative within social media is not creative in the artistic sense, like when I look at your photos and the documentation that you've put together and the the travels you've done, especially in the middle east, like that is creative, right, because you're like literally going around the desert and sand to try to find that creative angle, whereas I think creativity is like, looked at through, like a vacuum. And I give you a simple, stupid example would be like running an ad. Running an ad, they have the creative, which is the image, and then people think that because they changed, that, it's creativity as a result. And like, how do you think about that? Right, because my kind of view is like there's like sparks of creativity within the activity, but it's completely different than the art of being creative actually is the art of being bored.

Matt: 3:14

That's really where creativity stems from, or at least used to. You know now, nowadays, exactly how you said, and people conflate inspiration with emulation, and you can have an inspiration, but you should try not to emulate that or plagiarize it even worse. Right? So I don't know. The definition of creativity is extremely vast and it's probably changing all the time. It's way overused these days. It's.

Matt: 3:40

You know, I'm a creator here, I'm a creator there, and what does that mean? You know, I did a video about this the other day and it does get frustrating. And I don't even think I'm a true creative. I take inspirations we all do. Whenever we wake up, we're inundated with sensations, thoughts that come from nowhere, you know. So there's no like a lot of it is. I saw your post today about status. A lot of it comes down to status, like I'm a creative, as if there's some kind of kudos to that. It's like that's really cool being creative. It's like no, it's.

Matt: 4:11

Even if you are a true creative, I don't believe that's of any intrinsic value that you've created. Excuse the pun, because you are who you are, you were. You are not able to change that. You. You were born into a family. You were born into family. Whether it's good, bad, somewhere in the middle, you cannot create your own thoughts. All you can do is choose, you know, uh, responsible and maybe creative decisions based off those thoughts and philosophies. You know, you, you don't choose to pick up a book every day. You think you do, but you have a thought. I fancy doing some reading, right? So when it comes to creativity, um, I I don't really know how to answer that.

Matt: 4:55

I know that it rubs me out the wrong way when it when it gets this because I I like nice things, I like discernment, I like quality and I like standards, and too many times and too many people these days put that in the negative column.

Matt: 5:13

It's derogatory, you're snobby, you're elitist, as if it's something bad that we should talk about or even think about. I like to have things that we label excellent. I like to have people that we label geniuses or masters right, in which case people have worked their whole lives to get to a certain point, through strife, through good times, through bad times, through whatever trauma they might have, through anything right when they've worked for so long to get where they want to, or at least be proud of a body of work, let's say. And then it gets completely stripped from underneath them by things like social media influences, people who call themselves creatives when they're not really creatives. They're doing it for you know their definition of success. That's why it rubs me up, because creativity is talked about these days as if it's a success feature on social media. It's a status thing more than it is a true form of art or a true form of creativity, something that you actually create from scratch, that is original to yourself.

Darren: 6:23

So that pursuit of something creative like you know the never-ending, like lifetime, infinite game of creating something and you're always continuously getting better can also be taken into the context of like, of building something right, because if you're building something adjacent, it's like you're always playing the game, it's a commitment, it's mastery, basically, absolutely it's mastery, but it's mastery with a different um purpose or a different end goal. So, like, there's the artist who follows mastery, wants to become like excellent at what they do, whether it's photography, painting, whatever. And there's the other side, which is more like the profit-driven individual who's seeking mastery for an outcome, to do a profit right or to do economically. Where do you draw distinction? Just in the mastery piece of like that pursuit right, because they're both trying to be excellent at something. Or add in a third vertical, let's say an athlete, right?

Darren: 7:13

You know I mentioned before I was bodybuilding, I was also a sprinter and as a kid you saying both is, you would nearly almost say, like artistic. Artistic in the way he ran and the way he trained, the way he pursued like mastery. What's the difference there? Or the similarity Is the similarity?

Matt: 7:28

I don't think they're mutually exclusive. And I think you know, if you touched on entrepreneurship, which is probably the essence of creativity, you know if you're starting a business and, even better, if you've got your own idea for a business, what better form of creativity is that you start from this tiny little root and your goal of you know plenty of trees that last hundreds of years, um, that that is the the essence of creativity. So I don't think like and this is my problem is that when people talk about creativity, they, they, they conflate it with digital presence, online status, and you know, that's why it kind of goes into the art world. So I think, to answer your question, I think that there is no real distinction. You can find creative I've talked about this on my videos.

Matt: 8:14

You can find creativity in any form of life. Now, whether someone like Usain Bolt would be called a creator, I certainly would call him an artist for sure. Whether that means he has an excellent level of creativity imbued in that, I don't know. I don't know enough about his let's be honest a lot of it's genetics, and then he went from having a genetic base level to being superhuman. Right that. I don't know what encompassed that difference, so I probably couldn't comment but that there is artistry and creativity in literally every form of life.

Darren: 8:49

That's what makes life fucking amazing, and I don't follow football. I think this is a waste of time, but that's why people call it like the beautiful game, because when you play it properly, it's elegant. You get me, it's like elegance, though you see, like an amazing football player or whatever, it's like elegant the way they move around it. Obviously, the execution is different. Uh, let's go back to status. So the reason I wrote that, which is basically everything in life, is to do with, uh, an elevation of status, and everyone is driven by status. And the reason why I said that is because my perspective and many others is and I've got this from other people is that the actions we take is to elevate our status, but we don't make the we don't, we don't make other actions to decrease our status in society.

Darren: 9:29

So people want to move away from moving down a level. That's why people stay shitty relationships, shitty jobs, they don't take like opportunity. That's why people wear like designer clothes or they go to the best bears or they get certain coffee. It's because it's a perceived, perceived increase in status and deep down, like that's a big psychological trigger to market to, because when you're marketing a solution, you can say, hey, like, do you want this new watch and then people's perception will be say, okay, this is going to elevate my status and that's like an age-old, like marketing thing, which how people move up the the status ladder. Now I want to get your thoughts on that. Because you drive, or you fly jets right and private planes, you've probably seen status at its highest end in terms of, like wealth. People's individuals like how do you think about that? Because that's nearly at odds to what you do in your private life, which is photography. It's on both ends of the spectrum.

Matt: 10:27

I think it's the root of all evil and suffering, to be honest, I think, well, the pursuit of it, because there's no level of status that's satisfactory right For more than a temporary period of time I just don't. I've never seen it. I've never seen the argument against that statement. So, and I've lived it right, when I first started flying private jets, I thought I was the fucking big easy, you know. I was like, yeah, I've made it, you know, and I would, I would swan around in my uniform or I'd swan around in my private life with a Rolex on and buying everyone drinks and, you know, being an utter prick, basically. So I know, I know I turned away from that a lot in the last kind of four or five years because I was very unhappy, and so I don't believe that status has any or any kind of beneficial property to human existence, and the root of all that is just desire, right? It's just desire to go from one level to the next level, to satisfy our ego. So I see it all the time and I feel sorry for these people and, knowing that, I know how it feels and I still wake up every day fighting it. You know, there is a business is great. Examples Like well, you can come and look at my business. You know it's not. You know it's. There is a business is great. Examples like well, you can come and look at my business, you know it's, it's not. You know, most of it is just fulfillment, pride, enjoying, enjoying the process and hopefully, the, the revenue and the, the profits at the end of the day. But, um, there is still. There's definitely still some there, like you mentioned coffee, like I'm obsessed with coffee. I've been learning about coffee for 10 years. But there's always, there's always an element of look at the clothes I'm wearing, look at the coffee I'm serving, look how cool this is. You know it's like that. That is all status. Um, so look I'm.

Matt: 12:17

I'm one to shy away from the Western construct of status. How we're brought up, I'm sure, how you were brought up in terms of not in, not in a blaming or negative kind of way. Just that's the way our parents thought they had to bring us up. That's the way the society dictated, that we were kind of brought up, or at least expected to move through life with full-time job. You know, the education system is a complete joke. The formal education system is a complete joke. The. The formal education system is a joke and I went through it. I loved it. But I look back now and go I didn't do anything with anything that I learned. I learned. I've learned more in my last five years ten years than I did 20 years at school and that's important, right, that's where you are.

Darren: 12:59

Where you are, though, because at 41, right, you're learning more. But how much people put down the, the education fucking toolbox after they finish school? Right, and like. That's why, like, a self education will make you like a living formal education all the way around. So, if it makes you killing, formal education, make you a living, but and it means you're up to you on that.

Darren: 13:19

But I think what's as interesting as the fact that those things that were bought into they're conditioned right, so. So, like going to university, which I bought the ticket, going into those jobs, which I bought the ticket, that's the condition to you. Same with buying the mortgage, buying the house, buying the care, and it's keeping up with the joneses right, and, as you know, influence by robert cialdini breaks this down. It's like the influence of other people around us makes all that elevation pitch, and that's probably why, like, you're probably having a little bit of looking at your own industry and photography saying, well, these guys are just doing it for more likes and more engagement, but it's almost like an elevation of status continuously. So it's kind of it's just an interesting way to think about it because, like, a lot of are all drivers, as you mentioned, comes from other people, but it's about having that discernment and picking individuals that you actually want to follow but not emulate at the same time. How do you think?

Matt: 14:08

about that. That that's hugely important isn't? It is who you spend your time with as well, who you choose to learn from, who you have around you, because you're just a product of that at the end of the day, especially as an adult, and that's one reason why I don't know about you, but one reason why I moved away from the UK. We were in this. Suddenly wake up, we're in this fucking rat race through no choice of our own. Well, I've got to get the house, I've got to get the mortgage. I'm debted up to my eyeballs Just to say that I've got a house to fit in with my peers, right, it's ludicrous.

Darren: 14:40

And then you need the range over.

Matt: 14:42

That's 2023, but that's the thing you go back home now and all they talk about is you know, they compare kids for a start, and then they they and then they go you know what car have you got?

Matt: 14:53

you know, and they, they've got a huge debt on their car or they've got a huge debt on the house, and then it's a house off, right, it's who's got the bigger house where that house is, you know, it's just, it's crazy. So, yeah, coming back to your point about the photography industry, I just don't see a photography industry anymore. It's, it's, it's um. I don't know what it is, but it's, um, it's a status game. It's just a rush for status. And so, look, I I'm not saying I'm perfected anyway and I understand where these challenges come from and why people struggle with it and why people fall into it, um, but I just don't think it's, it's, I don't think any, uh, I don't think anything good comes from it. It's interesting.

Darren: 15:33

Right because without like an economic driver, historically like society hasn't moved forward. Right because, if there's an economic driver, we've innovated like we found, like cures for medicine. We've added in food at a way to like produce food. Going back like time and time again yeah, I know where you're going with it.

Darren: 15:49

That's different though. No, no, I know. But I want to try to say is that there's been like that pursuit to like make new stuff better but then add in a on a site to that. They're trying to add in like creativity to that. So let's take an ip right, like the way like Steve Jobs put a thousand songs in your pocket, right, that was like creative in that art. But then the fact that now, going forward, it's like everything has to go back to those premises for it to move forward is where there's like a problem. Do you get me? There's a problem, kind of. It's a problem solution continuum.

Matt: 16:18

So it was like so, basically, taking a step back from this is like, how can you actually become more creative without like selling your soul? Basically, how do you think about that? Um, I think you have to learn to be bored, you know. I think this is why you have courses of how to be creative. It's just the wrong. It's just the wrong way to go about it.

Matt: 16:37

And I don't want to get too spiritual, I'm not that spiritual, but I I enjoy time with myself, I enjoy time in a quiet room and most days I make a deliberate practice of it, because I think, if you ask any successful or prominent artists these days, the same question and it's either a mental health struggle that they have to get through, and from that is blossoms creativity, because they spend so much time in a, in a screwed up place that this just comes, ideas come, thoughts come, voices come, or it's they, they, they spend time in solitude, they spend time sitting, writing, thinking and uh, and from that it would be amazing, you know, it is amazing. Just having 10 minutes by yourself in, with no devices, nothing around you is so powerful to to be creative. I'm just talking about creativity here. Um, let alone if you try 30 minutes an hour, two hours, just just sit around, no devices, and try it yeah, right yeah, right every day how much like what would you write about is any framework you use?

Matt: 17:43

um, I wrote, I wrote, I write poems. Maybe once every few weeks something comes to mind as I sit down and have a good, just kind of hash out for an hour. Uh, I journal every day, um, and that, yeah, that's it. I mean I I'll go. I'll go some days where I I feel like writing whatever comes to mind, right, I mean I'm writing every day notes, ideas. My memory is really bad, so I'll always have like a notebook or, if I'm at my laptop, my notes open, just because if something comes in I need to, otherwise I forget it, and then I get frustrated and angry that I've forgotten it.

Matt: 18:22

So, um, yeah, I think, I think back in the day, creativity was something that was, you know, almost organic and there wasn't kind of you were. You were either very, very much a creative or you weren't. Now it's just the rush because it's cool, or there's a status attached to it, or there's money attached to it. I mean coming back to what you're talking about in terms of capitalism essentially, if there's money attached to something, then the flock will go there, right, and so that's what happened with digital media, with social media, with YouTube especially, and people were going wow, I can fucking make money from talking from home. Making videos. That is brilliant. I mean, I do it, you do it, it's fun, you can get your voice out there, and I'm not. I think that's brilliant for the world, but what that does it just. It just homogenizes creativity a little bit more.

Darren: 19:18

Because you almost come down to what's working right.

Matt: 19:21

Yeah, you now create for an algorithm, I don't care what you say, wherever everything gets put online right. When was the last time people went to galleries and exhibitions and museums? And you know, always try and make a point of doing that If I can. Certainly in the big cities I go to um because it's just, it just brings you down to earth and I miss that. As a 41 year old, I feel old saying that kind of thing. But you know I miss film, photography. I miss like go. You know, film is cool these days.

Matt: 19:50

So it's like I don't want to shy away from trends, but as soon as a trend comes and it becomes popularized, you know, you, you, you don't really want, I don't really want it, I guess it's. I mean, it may be fun, but it's not. It's not a pursuit that I think is unique or anymore and therefore very valuable. You know the valuable things in this world are unique and original at best. So you know the same with businesses it's you can create the same business as that next successful business, but you can be more of a success if you have a little uniqueness. That could be the, could be the CEO, it could be a system, it could be a price point. It could be any part of it, right, that that's unique. So I think we don't place enough. We, as in the Western world, don't place enough value on uniqueness, because we think it's elitist, and we think you know why. Why should that person be better than me? Why should that person have more than me?

Matt: 20:46

So, going back to what you're talking about, status, I think I think that you know, if you, if you were to I mean, there's so many stats you can throw around here, but giving back is is one of those things you talk about dropping status.

Matt: 21:03

If you, if you're one that gives away to charity or does things for charity, you guys included, us included there isn't, there is a level of status that doesn't necessarily come with that, unless you shout about it and then you're just a prick. Right. The real heroes in the world do those good things without anyone knowing about it, right? They're the gems in this world, and so there is nothing wrong with people making a billion dollars if they give 90% of that away to charity, right, but they don't. They don't because we live in a world of greed and status, and I'm all for creating businesses, creating wealth, moving things forward, evolving society, but as long as we give some of that back to the people that need it and I just don't see that anymore it's just a race to the bottom, but a race they perceive as a race to the top. You know, fuck everyone else.

Darren: 21:56

I'm gonna rise up the status ladder until million people get hurt well, that's interesting, right, because the charity piece is like what people do beyond the business. But it's also go back to status and increase the status, right, they're doing it for that perception, right? Uh, well, they might not be ideally doing it, but it's at a subconscious level, you know. Or they start an organization and then mention it as that, and a lot of this is subconscious, right, a lot of it happens under the hood.

Darren: 22:22

Some people could be intentional, but a lot of it does happen at a second it's the second order of consequence as a result, and I always think about the first, second, third order of consequences from your actions. Going back back to, like, your pursuit, right, do you think that because you're a pilot and you have photography, do you think you have a different opinion than if you were just a photographer? Because now you still have like the love and the effort and you have like almost like an income to accommodate it. But it's also, if you went all in, you could lose the love for what you love.

Matt: 22:57

Yeah, it's a battle that I have every day in my head and I know it's a battle that many, many artists have, because pick any art form and it's, generally speaking, going to be difficult to make money from it. A the competition is rife. I mean we just talked about it. A the competition is rife. I mean we just talked about it, um. B. Just the demand is is so low, um, or the budgets are so low. If you're, if you're working with you know you might be lucky. You get a collector, come along and go, I love all your stuff right, and he's a billionaire you don't get into it for that?

Darren: 23:29

no, of course of course not.

Matt: 23:30

The intent is just to make. The intent is literally just to make something right, to make a story, to make a series of something, to make one piece, to make a song, to make a film or whatever it might be right. If I'm not saying that is people's intent, most of the time it isn't, it's to make money. But when you're talking about true art, true creativity and my it is, yeah, that is the intent behind it. So look, I balance. There have been I hope my boss isn't watching this, but there's probably been five times in the last two years where I've written a resignation letter just because, not because I don't love the job I mean, I don't love it as much as I used to just because we can be so busy sometimes. It's just exhausting. It's not good for my health. I still love flying It'll always be in my blood but I want to see where I can get my photography to and I don't think I can do that until I give everything else up.

Darren: 24:31

Do you want to launch a podcast for your business but you don't know where to start? Remove the stress, pressure and all the overwhelm that comes with it by working with Podcast University. If you're an ambitious individual who wants to build your influence online, grow your own podcast and also stand out from the crowd, podcast University is for you. We help you with the strategy, equipment, the content, your guests, everything you need to create a top tier podcast. If you want to learn more, check out Podcast University and start your podcast journey today. Yeah, and just an observation from like, what happened with me right, was that I was recording podcasts for years and it is the creative pursuit, right, and it's my actual expression of like, how I show up, how I interact, how I learn. It's like my creative outlet and everything that happened from it was a bonus. Like, everything was just like. It was like magic beans or new opportunity right, it was just like a new thing. But the second I left my job. That went away and what was replaced with was actually more like anxiety, because it's like I need to make this to work.

Darren: 25:34

Now, I'm not saying this is like get rid rid of the art, I'm just saying that before, when it was like a magic playground, when I knew I wasn't making 100k a year in finance. We had to make it work. And it didn't change the art. Well, you could argue it did. But what it did was it changed the success metrics. Because when before, when it was like magic beans and stuff worked, and now, when things work at a thousand times the same result, like like we've grown so much more, I don't get that same you know kick with when it was like a hobby. And this is just a reality. It's not saying that it's right or wrong, it's just what happened.

Darren: 26:11

Right, and the way I kind of see that is because I went from being like someone who was a hobbyist to someone who's just an entrepreneur not just an entrepreneur, but I'm trying to, I'm trying to detach the creative side with it, with the I need to make this work because I have, like, I need to exist in the world. And that goes back to human psychology, which is like we need to fundamentally like, like, actually live psychology, which is like we need to fundamentally like, like, actually live. And that means we have that never ending pursuit, right, because we're so used to that, um, like innately, that we don't want to die, right, we don't want to be pushed out of the tribe. We also don't want to die Now. That's not going to happen.

Darren: 26:45

But when you're alone in your room at 11 o'clock at night, when you need to make this work, that's when those thoughts come in, being like we need to make it work, right, um, and when you have that, we need to make it work. That's when people make compromises. Now, I didn't, I wasn't making compromises, but that's when I've seen people lose the love for what they do for those reasons. Does that make sense?

Matt: 27:06

absolutely.

Darren: 27:07

I see that, I see it all the time and that's probably why I haven't made yeah, jump, yeah what you do is so unique that that's why, like this is a unique conversation, because I've never had like a photographer on my podcast, because usually whenever I have people like this stuff, like make the jump from nine to five, everyone's like, yeah, fuck that anyway.

Darren: 27:23

And just like run with it. Right, and like people are they're not thinking about it in terms of creativity and art, right, they're like, how do we make this work and replace my income? You know, and that was me, it was like how actually I wanted to get 50 of my income, 60, and I did it. And then the second I got 60, I just left it. I was like, ah, it's grand, get rid of it. And that's kind of the way I kind of think about from a business perspective, because we want to just live and exist and somehow like not die, basically, right. It's just difficult for me to see like how a creative person or like an artist can, can excel in like an economic sense when the, when the art is about the art, it's.

Matt: 28:04

It's a complete different paradigm it's extremely difficult and I would say there's less than one percent of artists that are able are able to achieve that and just before I finish up, this point is um, I spoke with polina pompliano recently.

Darren: 28:16

She wrote the hidden book called hidden genius, and she, like served, she didn't survey, she studied thousands of like people that were at the top of their game, multiple different fields and one of them one. One section of the book was on creativity and she studied da vinci really closely and what da vinci was able to do, where he kind of popularized the idea of two things that are mutually exclusive and how do we find the binding agent? So he would fuck like yellow against the wall and then he'd also fuck like an egg against the wall and he'd watch the egg and the yellow paint run down the wall and he'd be like hmm, and he'd just stare at her for like an hour and he'd find something that were two mutually exclusive elements and put them together and like that's how. Like that's not how ideas come from, but it's almost like how you spark something.

Darren: 28:59

So let me give you a personal example. You know helping people with their podcast and me just being a good marketer. They're mutually exclusive, but then they just come together or something like that. Right, the reason why I'm saying that is because that's almost what needs to happen for it to be a business as a photographer. You have photography and you have business and you need to find an intersection If you are to do that, not say you have to. I'm saying if you are to do that?

Matt: 29:23

how do you think about that? Yeah, I'm working on it every day. I've definitely found where I can fit in the photography world. If it ever went to a full time, I mean it will. It's just a matter of time. It's it's going to swap where I do photography way more than I do flying. I'll probably still do a bit of flying, you know, for the rest of my life because it's in my blood. But you know the the the photography business model is you cannot survive and it does come back to survival, you know. You know that that neanderthal brain of ours, you know we might think, oh, we haven't earned enough money this month, we're not going to die, right. But that the subconscious says to us that you know flight or fight brain. It's like, well we've, we feel like we're going to die and that's why you can't override that right definitely not.

Matt: 30:09

it's hardwired into us. So that that's why I haven't made the jump yet, because it's too comfortable. You know, I get paid a really good salary, just got a pay rise. It's like, fuck it now. Like this is making it really difficult for me. Man, it's dying on handcuffs? Yeah, it is, but I'm utilizing every minute of my spare time that's my dog Utilizing every minute of my spare time to put something in place where you know, it's not just about taking photos, that's just my love.

Matt: 30:34

And if I can, if I can create a business model where I don't need to take other people's photos for them, uh, I'm winning right, because then I have the freedom to do things like this podcasting, where I enjoy it. If I can find a way to monetize that properly, I'm happy. Or I, that's the goal, and then the education side of it. So you know, I, I, I that's the goal, and then the education side of it. So you know, I.

Matt: 30:57

I talked to a lot of photographers about this and I've, I've had experiences of doing, doing workshops myself and having clients with me. That's so much joy it's giving, it's giving back. It's that fulfillment, satisfaction of, of seeing progress from someone who you know you're passing on your fuck-ups in life and your mistakes in photography and saying you know this, this is, these are my mistakes, this is how. This is where I don't want you to make the same mistakes, seeing that, being proud of it, and at the same time, you get to take photos as well. So there's this beautiful kind of symbiosis, symbiosis, symbiotic symbiosis, beautiful symbiosis between uh kind of that, uh kind of that, what you're talking about the mix of mix of those worlds. We've got education on one side and photography on the other right but it can be a combination.

Darren: 31:44

I think, absolutely. I think my observation of you right now we met a few times right is that, like you don't realize the stuff that you've already done though you know I've noticed that like about yourself you don't realize that, like this place, like the coffee shop you have, like it's amazing, like for anyone that hasn't seen I put up on my story a minute ago like it's like one of the most beautiful places I've been to in bali and it's just a coffee shop downstairs and everything is like meticulously put together. And I think you, like it's a curse of granted knowledge said it's on your podcast we don't recognize how good what we do is because it comes so easy to us. Like when I'm looking at the rocks downstairs, I'm like where did you get these rocks from? But from you. That's like, yeah, that's like you just like, oh, volcano, okay, who gets up there? Who gets this place? Bring it down, let's test it. I think that's the stuff that's undervalued and, like justin welsh says, like there's always like a hundred thousand000 between your ears that you don't realize and not to say that's the whole purpose, but it's the fact that you already have a beautiful coffee shop. You already have an amazing studio, you really enjoy photography and you want to have that as a creative pursuit. You can let that be the creative pursuit, just like Kickoff Sessions is to me. I don't give a shit about monetizing to true sponsors because I don't need to. I'm not strapped for cash, right if it comes whatever. But it's not a, it's not a force factor.

Darren: 33:04

Now, I was just very lucky, all right, I was very lucky to be in a position that I'm in, you know, a very. I was someone who was like a scarce mindset just because, like didn't grow up a lot of money. I had a lot of businesses that I failed. This one has hit really well, so that has allowed me to. So it's uh.

Darren: 33:18

I've heard this many. I was told as many times that you can't tell someone with a scarce mindset to just be abundant. You can't tell a broke person just be full of money, right, and also like same with, like, uh, ufc. You can't tell like someone who's not in the ufc how important the ufc isn't, but then you have to get there to realize it. So, going back around circles, the stuff you've already built is already hugely significant and you just need to almost lean into that this is my observation right because, like it's already like amazing and the setup you have here, and then allow everything else to be that enjoyment still, because you will still want to pursue that. For the type of brain that you are, you know you're more it's really interesting. Actually, we can just take a small tangent on this the fact that you have a logical brain as a pilot but then you have a creative pursuit. Oh yeah, but I'm a really shit pilot.

Matt: 34:07

I don't know about that man. I'm worse than I used to be and I know that and I'm still extremely safe. And we meet a lot of pilots on the road. We go to simulator where we meet other pilots, we train with them. So you got 15 years in the business. You kind of know where you're at. In terms of like quality level, I'm kind of above average, but I'm very fortunate. I work with colleagues who are 10 times better than me, because my love for that's not to say you can be a good pilot and just take a tangent into piloting. But but I like that though you can be a good pilot.

Matt: 34:42

Yeah, you can be a good pilot and you sorry, you could be a you can be an excellent pilot. If you're not an excellent pilot doesn't mean you're unsafe or anything, just means maybe you're you know as keen, maybe you don't have you know the encyclopedic knowledge that you need to about the aircraft, and there's a lot of ego in piloting and it's a lot of who knows more, and so there's that aside, but that there are uh, there are a lot more better pilots than me. But that is because when I was, you know, 10 years ago, when I was 30, I loved it. It was my life. Um, I got extremely lucky. I mean, I've been extremely lucky throughout my whole life in terms of my upbringing. We weren't, we didn't have much money either, so it was, it was always like that.

Matt: 35:24

Why I went to private school. I don't know how I got sponsored. I got a sponsorship, my brother got a sponsorship. My parents scraped every kind of we had nothing at home but I had everything at school, kind of we had nothing at home, but I had everything at school, and so all I saw were these rich toffs, you know millionaire parents, and they were coming to school in porsches and bentley's and I'm just going I'm in my clapped out voxel corsa like breaking down every month.

Matt: 35:48

I'm just going what? This isn't right. You know there's a. So I was always like, oh, I want to be like them, want to be like them, want to. So that's, that's kind of where the entrepreneurial kind of itch started.

Matt: 35:57

But the, the pilot thing, uh, yeah, I mean I, I it's, it's very logical, but there's also an art to it in itself, because you know, you, you, 75 of it is a computer doing things for you. But if you don't know how to get the best out of that computer is same as your laptop, right, you could spend someone could spend 10 hours writing an email, whereas we might be able to spend 10 seconds writing an email because we know how it works. Or we use AI, or whatever we are able to make things. I say we, anyone, anyone who's proficient in something can make it extremely efficient, to the point where it's a flow. You go back to the football analogy right, it's 11 people, 22 people on pitch, the team's 11 people. You put them in certain places where it becomes an art form, right, and if you get, if you fuck that up, it's just logic, right?

Matt: 36:48

So there is a technique, there's a style to piloting, but generally speaking, it's logical and that is why I fell out of love with it. That is why I love flying a plane. I can fly. It's like photography I love holding a camera and creating something out of it, but everything else is. I don't know where that switch came from, but there was always this underlying urge to do something a little bit more creative and actually it came. I was answering some questions for an interview the other day and I'm like wait, you know, where did you your pilot? Where did the entrepreneur thing come from? It's like, well, I always had it, I, I had it. I don't know, probably since I was 16, 17, you know wheeling and dealing, doing silly little stuff, right, failing one thing after another. But this pressure of parents, money, my love for piloting, like I want to chase that, I want to chase that, but there's always this kind of like all my time off was spent either playing sport or trying like a little business.

Matt: 37:47

Whether it was piano tutoring or a cafe or something like that.

Darren: 37:51

All of it, you know, obviously didn't work out, but are you an entrepreneur who wants to build your influence and authority online? You may have tried some of the hacks and tricks, but none of it has worked. And it makes sense. 90% of podcasts don't make it to episode three. Of the 10% that are left, 90% of them don't make it to episode 20. That's where Vox comes in.

Darren: 38:11

Vox creates, manages and grows your podcast for you, on your behalf. If you've not been getting leads, not been growing consistently, you haven't found your tribe and you don't know what to do, vox is the answer. Don't just take our word for it. In the past couple of years, we've managed over 35 podcasts. We've also been able to generate over 55 million views with 500 episodes produced, and not only that, generating over $1 million for our clients in products, services and sponsorships. So if you want to learn more about how you can build a great podcast and have it fully managed for you, schedule a call with me at VOIX and we will help you achieve your podcast goals. But that's how you followed status in that realm to get to that point your podcast goals, but that's how you followed status in that realm to get to that point.

Darren: 38:58

So, in again influenced by Robert Cialdini, he talks about authority and when you become a doctor, everyone's like, oh, he's a doctor. That's actually not true. Your doctor lab coat is what brings in status. So if generally, people will bow to authority with someone who has the status, just like someone who's a pilot, right. But there is different levels to becoming a doctor and it depends on how long your lab code is. So if you have a short lab code that comes to just below your bottom, you are just an entry-level doctor. If it's a little bit longer, you've passed your residency, and if you're an MD, it's the longest and people perceive you differently as a result. And actually there's been lots of malpractice as a result because people with a longer coat can have a wrong diagnosis of a problem and then the nurse will implement that because she won't think about it.

Darren: 39:39

It's called the click run reaction. It's like how, like any animal may click run changes based on their own habitual, like auto, like senses, right. But it comes back to like status and and that pursuit which is kind of like how you got into that space, which is how I got into, like the finance world and the tech startup world, because I was following that click run reaction in my brain which is like, okay, this is obviously the best thing to do, but at the same point, I was always tinkering and changing and moving things on the side. Were you ever a rebel in?

Matt: 40:10

what as in?

Darren: 40:10

you didn't like taking orders always, so I was a terrible employee but I terrible employee, terrible student, but this, this is the weird thing about me is that I'll do the work, but if you tell me to do it, I won't do it exactly right.

Darren: 40:24

So so for for context, like I, I didn't, uh, study or anything until I was 17. That blew up my knee, okay, and at that point I was like, probably player, probably player, probably player. And I blew up my knee. I was told I wouldn't get into any university. So then I left school, just showed up during when I needed to, and I went to the medical library in the university and I sat there for two years learning the past 17 years plus the next two years of university work, okay, and it was because no one told me to do it, I just did it. I turned green, okay, got to university, actually barely scripting the university, they were nearly right. And then the next four years, I didn't wait to be told what to do. I'd have, like, all my final year projects and stuff done. I had my final year project done in november it was june, may, the following month following year and the whole idea was that if someone tells me, I won't do it. And same with business. And I actually just very recently had a call.

Darren: 41:16

So I bought into this new program. I hired this new mentor. He's like a very like famous entrepreneur and the program starts in February, in May 2nd Is currently Can you tell who he is? Shan Hanif. He owns a company called Genflow and called genflow and uh, yeah, genflow is like they're one of the biggest agencies in the world and I bought into the program recently and, uh, I bought the program in the middle of april and I was like hey, can I start early, just like the course material and stuff. And they're like that's kind of weird to say.

Darren: 41:40

But whatever, gave me the material and yesterday I had the onboarding call. I hopped on onboarding call and I was like, yeah, everything's done. I've already implemented all the systems. The team are already using templates. It's already implemented here. Implemented all the systems. The team are already using templates. It's already implemented. Here's all the new clients we signed and here's all the new work we do. And the onboarding guy was like you are one of the most fucked up people I've ever met in my entire life. He was like no one has ever finished a material and actually implemented it before the program started. And he was like why'd you do it?

Matt: 42:16

And I was like because I wanted such a weird dilemma, dilemma, right, uh, and that's just been the nature of being. Can you get me another coffee? But it's the nature of being an entrepreneur, though, right, and I imagine what it is. I mean, I ask because I I hate having a boss and my boss is like one of the nicest bosses I've ever worked for. He's he's legit legend for for a multi-millionaire um, I just, but I just don't like I hate being told what to do and I can feel my wife's eyes right on me now burning a hole in my face, mine I, but I, I'm the hardest worker in the room.

Matt: 42:41

You know, if it's something that I, no one tells me to do and I'm just like, well, this needs to be done, I'm going to do this and I want to create this, and then I add this onto my plate and add this on. So I want, want to do it, I want to do it, I want to do it. Someone tells me to do something like, fuck off, no, I just won't do it. It's weird. I've been like that since I was a child. Um, my dad was very strict. Uh, you know, he's a military guy, so he was very strict.

Matt: 43:02

I must be something from there. I'm not getting into psychology too much, but yeah, it must be. Something like that emanated from there, where I, just when I went to university and I don't know, everyone goes crazy at uni, but I went I was like freedom, you know, rebelled, and I kind of haven't stopped since. I mean I'm so professional, respectable, but you know what I mean? It's like I, I want to go and prove myself. All the time I'm going to create something for myself. All the time it's all about to create something for myself.

Darren: 43:29

All the time it's all about creating something, making something, and that fulfillment of creating something that you're proud of I it's like a drug, it's a feedback loop, right, and that's why putting stuff out to the world and getting the like, the, the feedback, like the, the signals, is what's most addictive and also as a blessing and a curse right most addictive and also as a blessing and a curse right, because there's two sides to that is like you want to go achieve something really big and get that fulfillment you have for yourself, not the validation separation with that, but just mean that that's the purpose as a pursuit of creation, right and building. That's what I feel you know is like like I'm definitely not in like the super small startup phase anymore, but that's where most people like romanticize the most, right, they're building something, they're getting something off the ground. That's where you people like romanticize the most right. They're building something, they're getting something off the ground. And that's where you see a lot of people struggle going one to 10 because they've lost like the kind of like essence for it. But it's one to 10 that makes and this is an interesting point to get into actually it's like I would say, I would argue that like a lot of the magic comes in that phase, whether you're an artist or whatever, because when you get those newbie gains and there's like there's um, there's a graph called the emotional state of change, which is like in the beginning you get uninformed, uh, optimism, it's like this is great, I love photography.

Darren: 44:39

And then you get like the realization of what's happening. And then you're in at the trough of misery and you're like, well, what the fuck's happening with photography? And when you stay in that like horrific pool, you come out at her end with, um, it's like something enlightenment or some shit. But that's like basically how you like learn a skill or whatever, right, but I've just got really, really good at like loving the pain and I've always been had a really high pain threshold. Entrepreneurs generally do just just, uh, embarrassment, fear, struggle, like the anxiety of not knowing the change. The state of change internally came from sport, came, yeah, came from, came from multiple different things, so that usually when I'm at that trough, I'm I'm quite familiar with staying in the pain, uh, which is what has let me, in the small pursuits that I do come out the other end. So I'd kind of get that.

Matt: 45:25

Your thoughts on that too, because, like, learning something is hard, right, and I don't think people, these, I mean I sound like, I do sound like an old man listening to myself, I agree with you people don't want to suffer for anything these days and coming back to you touched upon mastery and I want to go into that at some point, but I I feel like that's such a rare thing these days. I was being to uh fellow photographer and podcast this morning and he's been a wedding photographer for 20 years. I mean 20 years of weekends shooting someone else's weddings and and he's fucking good at it, like it's just second nature to him. He's got no, he's perfectly happy. But he, he does it right.

Matt: 46:08

Not for the photography. He does it to share people's love, like to be part of a very special day. It's not about the images, not for the photography. He does it to share people's love, like to be part of a very special day. It's not about the images, not about the photography. It's not about the money, definitely not about the money. And so, um, what was your question?

Darren: 46:21

I would say like um learning, learning a new skill and going through the pain of it but then staying with it. Because, like peter teal, the famous like investor talks about like zero to one and I don't. I honestly don't think zero to one is hard, because I think that getting into something is exciting.

Matt: 46:37

I think one to ten is like the worst position possible yeah, I talk about the patience of consistency all the time, and I see the most successful people and they not only consistent, they have the patience to be consistent over a stretch of time In front of game. Yeah, absolutely yeah, and I think I think we, we certainly. Uh, you're an outlier, but you know you're you're the only 28 year old I've met 28, 28 year old. I've met recently who who just sees the world in a very mature way. That isn't like I need this now, I need this now, I need this now and then that now, and then you know what. What's that person doing.

Matt: 47:14

I need to be like them, and I don't blame the younger generation at all. If I grew up with what we have today in terms of the social medias and just the vacuous nature of every bit of information that comes across your desk, I would be the same. Like you know, I'm bordering on that anyway now. So I don't see the pursuit of mastery anymore. I don't see the pursuit of suffering, because true genius and true mastery comes from suffering, comes from pain.

Matt: 47:45

We live in a world of abundance, so we have to go out and actually create some kind of suffering, some kind of difficulty. We actually have to go out certainly someone like me who's been privileged all my life. You have to go out and actually create some kind of suffering, some kind of difficulty. We actually have to go out, and certainly someone like me who's been privileged all my life. I have to go out and put yourself in difficult positions every day. You have to go and make a dick out of yourself every day. You have to go and be prepared to be wrong every day and then be admit that you're wrong and just go again and go again, and go again, and go again. That is. That is the only way I see the most successful people in the world, whatever industry creating that success from. I don't. No one gets rich quick. You know it's a cliche, but they don't Well it's.

Darren: 48:23

It's a 10 years of absolutely brutal pain to get to that point whereby you win Right, and that's why I think the reason why I would try to have like a unique opinion on this is because when you're already trying and you're out on your own, you're already winning. You're already ahead of 99 of people. So if you hear all this shit and people say, like your photos suck or whatever, or whatever the feedback is, it's like those guys are not people you want to get feedback from. I have some like people in our network that are ultra successful, right and like have made huge business and everything, and I actually care about their opinion because they have gone and done the stuff that I want to go achieve. So if they say something to me like hey, you should do it this way, specific, or maybe I didn't like it the way you had, like this, I'm like, oh, that's good feedback, it's good feedback. But all the other stuff where most people get caught up on, like all the worries, all the pain and stuff that is all again back to status, they feel like that they can't let that go right. But I've kind of already kind of eliminated that. So for me it's more like the infinite game mastery, pursuing something, going all in on something.

Darren: 49:17

Because whatever I said on a newsletter recently was like sometimes people just want to be around people who are obsessed with stuff, and because we live in a life of mediocrity whereby everything, everyone is average, right. So if you find someone who is just obsessed with something, people stick to it. So zach pogreb is a perfect example of this. His word is obsession. He follows obsession, so he's obsessed now with. He was a bodybuilder, I think. Now he's obsessed with marathon running. He's trying to run like a sub 1 240 marathon. Six foot three, 200 pound, right.

Darren: 49:47

The reason I'm saying this is because I've had clients who have stayed with me because they just think that I'm like addicted to what I'm doing and you want to be about it, right, whatever about the business, but you want to be about the thing.

Darren: 50:01

So that's why we can kind of sit there and go over this stuff whatever, because I'm just generally like obsessed with the object. And for me that came to a lot of pain, right, because I was in startups, went to big companies when the smaller companies was trying different stuff, and then it was only until I found the podcast which I was like this is something I control my entire life at, irrespective of outcome, just because I enjoyed the pursuit, um, and that's allowed me to play the infinite game Right, and that's taken a bit of time time, of course, but that's why I'm very hesitant to start new stuff, because I only want to start stuff that it's on that infinite game, and we actually have only got to that realization recently with a few things that I'm working on in the business right now. It's like this is something that we can definitely do infinitely. Let's do it, um, versus like I don't know, not a get rich quick scheme, but two new things you could start which looked at good opportunities, but they're not aligned to what you want to do.

Matt: 50:53

So, and that's really, really important is is Simon Scribb talks about this like number one rule do what you love, like find that everyone has something in their life that they love, and it could. It doesn't have to be like a business venture, it could just be planting flowers, or it could be walking a dog, or it could just do something that you love, figure out something you love, and if you end up, the more you think about that and you decide I want to create some, I want to create a business, something won't start with something you love and then figure out how that might form over over a period of time. And I think that it's it's super important when it comes to photography that the best photographers who I know are obsessed with it. They just and I and I am I think about it every day. I love it, I just love it. Right, I'd love everything about it. If you have that maybe obsession might be the wrong word, but maybe it's suitable for you but if you have just that passion, like the passion for what you do, everything else just honestly just doesn't matter, because as long as you maintain that passion and you don't get distracted like you're talking about, which is super easy to do, right, I've got to do that and I've got to do that, and maybe I should do that just to hedge my bets. It know it's like no, no, no. If you, if you really truly want to view, if you're able to identify a goal, then the only way you can pursue that goal is with passion, with with doing, choosing something you really really want to do, and the rest you'll figure out. You really will. Not only that, people see that passion and what you're talking about, like you attract people, want to work with you because they see it. And I've had this in my last business.

Matt: 52:35

We were so passionate about our business in Hong Kong, which was a chain of gyms. We were so we just loved every just. We lived it day in, day out, for years, nonstop, for years, and we would get investors because they were just like well, I just want to invest in you. I don't, I didn't, I don't care about the business, Like I'm not investing in business. I want to invest in you, I want to be around you. People wanted to be around us because we were just infectious. We just want to talk about this all the time, right, and for the majority of people, they don't want anything to do with that, right, it's not their space, there's not their interest. Like it's boring, oh god, they're talking about that again. But the people who had a level of interest in it, right, they want to be around you.

Darren: 53:13

They want to be around people like this they want to be around as well, right you? Want, of course, yeah, of course, and you've probably seen that too. Uh like, over the years, as you got more into photography your old mates that you used to go to the pub with, they're like, oh, they're like, yeah, that's kind of weird. He does all this photo when I started getting into photography.

Matt: 53:30

I got so much shit from my mates when I then when I started putting videos on youtube and posting on instagram, just having a digital presence and then starting the podcast and stuff like that oh my god, I've got now.

Darren: 53:41

It's just quiet would you say that they they're not like mates anymore, or do we do on the peripherals?

Darren: 53:49

yeah and like that's happened to me, right. So, uh, and how I described it's kind of funny is that when you start, when you launch, people are like, oh well done and actually want you to fail. Yeah, I think I went through this with you before was the fact that you know when people, when you leave your job, everyone claps. But they clap because they see you as a perceived drop in status. And now they're beneath you because matt doesn't make money anymore, right. And then they then they think, oh well, you know he's over there. This is subconscious, it's not really conscious. Sometimes it is conscious, but then as you grind, grind, grind, you're in a fucking warehouse for like four years straight. When they see the TechCrunch article, then it's insecurity, because now he's up here, right, and he's done all the work while I was in the shit job and I was sitting there in London buying mortgages and getting kids and stuff, yeah, but most of the time they don't think you worked hard for it. Well, that too, right?

Darren: 54:34

oh, he's just got given that that's why they would kind of stop engaging with you as a result. Right, and if I was to look at my followers of Instagram, which I don't really care about, but I for that exact reason, because I've just been on my own for a very long time building.

Matt: 54:52

That's why things like Instagram are just so bad. They are making society like that and we're talking the majority of the global population now are like that. They get jealous like that. They think that what they see on Instagram is reality or a broad version of reality where it's just a snapshot or a fake snapshot at best. So I, you know, I I'm definitely not going to go down the social media route.

Matt: 55:20

But, on that note, spoke to um, had this discussion with a potential client, but a guy who's kind of learning the photography techniques, but just kind of dipping his toes in the photography world, figuring out whether he wants to make the move, and we got into the social media argument and he was like, yeah, look, I just you know, I'm trying to grow my social media and putting good photos and his photos are great, but he's getting wrapped up with this status, he's getting wrapped up with the validation and he's putting and this is so many people right, put a photo on there. And he said you know, I've got I think he's got like 7,000 followers or something, which is amazing If they're all real followers. You saw them in a room, fucking amazing. And that was my thing. He said I got five likes on a photo, I said, yeah, but if you showed your photo in this studio and with five people around, how proud would you be? Like I would. I'd take that any day of the week to show some of my photos to five people. What a day, fantastic.

Matt: 56:13

But we forget because it was just digit, right? You think about youtube subscribers? We've got 68 000 like. Put put them in a stadium and get them to listen to you, right? That's incredible. We just forget. We just see. See a digit, right? So it's again. It's the perception of what is reality, and I guess that's know a different topic for a different day. When it comes to social media, talk to me about the trip you did in was it Abu?

Darren: 56:38

Dhabi? I said Abu Dhabi, in the desert.

Matt: 56:40

Yeah, it was a couple of years ago now, again, sparked from just a desire to tell a story that you know, most of my photography is based around stories that maybe people haven't heard about, of people of other people that maybe people haven't heard about around the world, and it's why travel is to get educated. When you get to meet people which I have done in a privileged position, flying around the world myself and meeting other people from other cultures and learning more about that, that makes my desire to go and kind of capture those stories even even stronger. So yeah, the the the nihilist in me thinks that the world is pretty much on its on its back in terms of nuanced cultures, um, minority populations, ethnic groups around the world. We live in a place now that's full of it, really, but it's dwindling as well. You take many African countries, take pretty much the whole of those Emiratis, the UAE states all completely commercialized and westernized now, whereas 10, 20, 50 years ago, a lot of different tribes, um bedouins and sub-tribes of of the bedouin culture were, you know, living these fascinating authentic lives in in the desert. Uh, off, nothing.

Matt: 58:07

So I wanted to go and see if I could find some of them, you know, know, and, uh, I was. I was actually there with work and had a, had a week in between trips and I just stayed there and, um, yeah, I mean it was a pretty much a failure of a trip. I couldn't, I couldn't. I ended up in Oman. I ended up driving. I mean, dubai, abu Dhabi, all of those tribes are gone, so they've been sucked from the desert through both climate change and globalization. Sucked from desert into the cities because cities pay and the desert's getting drier so the camels can't feed, and so there's just, you know, going to the desert. There's nothing right. So my story had, you know, ended before it even begun.

Matt: 58:48

After like four or five days of just meeting people, reccees, researching, I found some places in Oman which is about from Dubai. It's about a six hour drive, just across the border. So rent a car. Usually my projects are pretty well planned. I've got a fixer on the ground. I know what story I'm trying to tell. I know what people I'm trying to capture.

Matt: 59:09

This was different. It was, um, I ended up on this weird Island, uh, in the, on the Northern tip of Oman, finding these people that still kind of live this authentic, very old way of living and refuse to kind of go onto the mainland and be be globalized and homogenized with the rest of society. So, yeah, that was, that was fun and they were. You know just often they are. They, as in these types of people often the nicest people you'll ever meet. You know just so humble. And we live in a place now where you know we talk about status and stuff. They don't give a fuck about it. Yeah, there are a lot of people here that obviously want a paycheck. It's just human nature. It's just human nature. But when you talk about status and an image and validation, you know it's not endemic to the whole of society. I just feel like in the West it's just almost cancer of our society, where we're just constant need to rise up.

Darren: 1:00:07

It's massive hierarchy, absolutely. I actually heard something super interesting on this before. It was like there was a guy I should really get the name but he was going into the Amazon to find these tribes that are being like untapped, you know, like no one's gonna access them, or they had mild access to the outside world. For the most part they wanted to be their own and they eventually found the tribe and when they went there, a lot of them had like infections in their feet because they used to climb the trees, so like these really bad infections. The average lifespan was like 26 25. They had really bad like um, like not heart disease, but a lot of like diseases, infections and whatnot.

Darren: 1:00:47

And they asked them the question being like I didn't ask them the question they like surveyed them of like what they wanted, and they wanted electricity, they wanted access to water, to clean water, to clean food. So it was almost like they were, they were protecting their tribal instincts, but they actually wanted to move away from it, even within that ecosystem community. And that was a very interesting observation because it was like we thought that they wanted to be on their own but they were like no, we're just very remote that we actually do want the outside influence, which is kind of interesting. As you go back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, they couldn't satisfy the base level, which is food security water. But then when they had satisfied that with electricity, that was a solution because it was like hydro water and whatnot the next one came up then. I just thought that was very interesting to analyze because, like I'm with you on that right Is that we need to almost like preserve, like the way things were done in the past.

Matt: 1:01:41

No, I'm not saying that at all. I understand what is happening and what will happen. You know it's just sad and what will happen. You know it's just sad. It's just sad that for me, as a photographer who gets drawn to cultural portraits and cultural nuances and documenting that, I feel like the beauty in life, and certainly the beauty in humanity, comes from those differences. Now, if we're all, have you been to China? 100% homogenized, right, it's the the, you know, and it's deliberate, it's deliberately built like that. It's a billion people that live, okay, there. There are some you know I'm completely generalizing a whole huge population here but generally speaking, they've built a system where everyone's kind of equal in in some way or another. Everyone's the same. Well, they're kind of trying to buy out the remote areas, but generally speaking, you know it's it's the buildings all look the same, everything's gray, it's. You know you can't have many flash cars or the cars are roughly the same. It's just, it's just like. It's just just that's. That's how it describes. It's just.

Matt: 1:02:49

I, I don't want to under a big Asian city, right and now you put your head above the parapet, you get it chopped off, right. So it's like you know, we want to celebrate difference, we want to celebrate nuanced perspectives, we want to celebrate conversation, we want to celebrate different opinions, as long as they're responsible and intelligent and informed. We want to celebrate different ways of life, and I just I feel like we are losing that, or at least we're not respecting it. So, um, where you might find tribes that are very grateful for, you know, the basic human needs? There are plenty of tribes and and subcultures out there that don't want their land being bought, that don't want the next power station to to to come on their land. They don't want the government to just push them out because they need land.

Matt: 1:03:37

I mean, every country you go to nowadays is is. We have to feed the growing population right. Feed them with housing, feed them with food, feed them with more cattle, feed them with just everything. It's just. It's just. It's just a world of supply, right. We've got to fit everyone into boxes somewhere, and all that means is that we're going to take away the beauty in the world. Whether we're going to implode it for ourselves or we're actually going to steal it from those specialties I don't know. But for me personally and I'm not arguing that it's a wrong thing for us to do that, because it's human nature we have to evolve, we have to progress. It doesn't mean we can't do it and are responsible, it's the survival versus the taking advantage dilemma.

Darren: 1:04:25

Right, we go back to in the beginning. You make the actions because you want to survive, but you've gone so far past survival because life is so easy that everything else added on like the next. The next massive building being built is not being built out of survival absolutely do you get me that's the difference agreed exactly, whereas like if we're in somewhere like Indonesia. I was in Sumba recently and it was beautiful, like we're going in a couple of weeks, no way.

Matt: 1:04:49

We're going in a couple of weeks, no way. Oh, it's so beautiful.

Darren: 1:04:52

What did you say? We'll have to pick your brains. God knows God knows what I said Like, everything is like, it's like, as it's very tribal. Yeah, that's one reason why I want to go and, without you know, absolutely tarnishing the way they actually live.

Darren: 1:05:04

But it won't be for very longer, for much longer. Up right now is like, even the culture there, even the landscape there. It's just so beautiful and I see that small murmurs of like yeah, there's being stuff being built like. Like, for instance, there's um, like a ritz carlton or some shit on there. There's one at least, what's the name of the place, the hotel that's there the knee, yeah, yeah, which is like a thousand dollars a night or whatever, but that's over like there is that where you?

Darren: 1:05:32

stayed no, god, no, stayed in a hut for, like sounds like fifty dollars a night, but it was a hub, okay. So where I'm going with that is just the fact that, like that's what it's interesting, because one of the one of the clients you have in our portfolio they have a climate change podcast and one of the guys that was on it made a really good point. It's like, you know, all of our phones screen savers and our laptop screen savers are of nature right, and we're like searching for that and we fly across the world to get to a pristine beach and all this kind of stuff, but we're actually dissolving this stuff that we actually want to get to right, or we're working so hard and it's like oh, yeah, we need to like build a business and sell the business to be able to get on the beach or to be able to go into nature, but it's like we already have access to these things and the best things in life are free.

Matt: 1:06:16

Right, I fly a plane mate, like it's not helping anyone. I mean, I don't eat meat. I hopefully kind of counteract that. That's also another conversation. But yeah, I think like it's just sad I'm not sat here saying I know the answers. But I know when I go to islands like Salaya and Sulawesi, or even the Maldives or some of the most beautiful places on earth, and you see waves of trash, and Bali, I mean, go down to Iluatu and on the right season, on the right side of the island, you can just see waves of trash. It's like what the fuck are we doing? Where's the responsibility and where's the education? And? Um, that's where the western world, the richer nations, need to take, take more responsibility and and that's why the erosion of beauty is just so sad and it's all man-made that's interesting.

Darren: 1:07:05

So how do you, how do you action that, before we finish up like what's, what can someone do to so they understand this? They realize it. What's the what's the lesson give?

Matt: 1:07:14

10 of their income away every month to what? To, um, something they believe in. Or if you're not sure, you can go to websites like effective altruism who can actually vet charities for you, um, you know, who have vetted charities for you over extensive investigative, investigative periods where they, you know, basically audit charities, make sure, because that's what people's biggest concern is 100% you know, how do I know if my money is going to get used appropriately? And so the argument with effective altruism is and I'm not a staunch supporter of it, but we, you know, I kind of take part in it, I guess but the argument is, rather than you go and, let's say, work at a dog charity and rescue dogs, if you've got the income to pay for 10 people to do that and you not do it right.

Matt: 1:08:00

So if you stay in a job let's say I stay in my job that I don't like but that brings in a good enough salary to put 10X the amount of money somewhere that's trusted and can leverage that money better than me giving up that job and going to do it myself, as the whole premise behind it For 10% of my income, like no brainer, like I'd rather suffer in a job that I don't like and not be a martyr or anything, but just be like, well, I'd rather do that and help that way than me kind of reassess my whole kind of life choices and absolutely much bigger impact. But you know, I understand we've been there. It's like, well, I don't really know where to put money, so I'm just going to keep it.

Matt: 1:08:39

you know, so, but that's where that's really where people can help. Education's the other thing. It's like just educate yourself. It's free, it's not difficult. Get off TikTok and just read a book, read an article, watch a podcast for three minutes. It's going to serve you better than than anything else. And I don't know how to get that message across to people because it's I understand it's an addictive pursuit, but you know, education for me is the key to to all of our, all of our solutions.

Darren: 1:09:08

If you think about like people in America, like 60% have never leftica or don't have a passport or some shit, like obviously they're 80, don't have a passport.

Darren: 1:09:17

Yeah right, their exposure to what's going on in the world is so small it's within their hometown, right. Some people, for whatever means, can't travel whatever. But I just mean the exposure you've had to the world and like with myself and like, obviously you're a pilot, you've flown a lot more than me, but just seeing that is a it's almost like an obvious choice. But mostly people like you, you experience a true exposure. Basically you realize what you need to make a change on by just having that experience and doing it yeah, but I mean, I think that's a bit of a cop-out, true, true, but that's what they don't realize it, though do you get me.

Darren: 1:09:47

They don't realize it because they haven't seen it.

Matt: 1:09:49

They yeah well, yeah, don't. You don't have to see stuff to be curious about things. I mean, they they see, everyone in the U? S has got a TV right, so everyone in the U? S has got internet, and so there is nothing stopping them to go. Well, you know what else is out there? They know that there's other countries that just can't travel.

Darren: 1:10:09

Yeah, that's true, like point where the UK is.

Matt: 1:10:11

So yeah, I mean I get that and there is a lot of responsibility that should be placed on governments, that should be placed on media companies. And when you think about how many people actually control what people see in the state of the US, we're talking like three or four major companies. It's like the food industry, right Same thing. So you can have so many brands and so many labels and so many sub companies. We're talking like three or four major companies. It's like the food industry, right same thing. It's like you can have so many brands and so many labels and so many sub companies, but at the top, it's like three or four companies, 100 media companies. So you've got these people dictating what information gets disseminated where.

Matt: 1:10:46

Let me take elon, for example. I mean how much, how much does he control in terms of narrative and information that gets out there? Right, a hell of a lot. How many companies does he own that's worth over a billion dollars? I mean a few. Who's invested in the companies? Well, exactly yeah. So I mean, look, I don't blame anyone. There's no blame here at all. I just feel like the responsibility can be shared and I think, as long as we've got the intent, we, as in society, have an intent both on an individual level and on a tribal level to to do the right thing. It sounds like a cliche, but it. It's really that simple. But you know it's too easy not to I get you. I say a massive thank you it's a great session.

Darren: 1:11:31

There's a lot of different things you've got to get into as well, which we're gonna need a second round yeah, I'm sure I think uh fia and elise are gonna lose their mind if we spend any longer. Man, thanks so much. Thanks for having me appreciate it, man.