#224 Mo Samuels - How to Fight Through the Worst Times of Life

Can a simple shift in mindset completely change your life?

In this episode, we sit down with Mo Samuels - YouTuber, online coach and founder of Physique Incubator.  

We tackle topics like Mo’s upcoming competition, the influence of travel and environment on happiness, the power of meditation, and the practice of personal accountability. 

Learn about Mo's practical approaches to creating content, managing hair loss, and the importance of surrounding yourself with a positive social circle.

Smash that like button and make sure you share your thoughts in the comments!

Mo’s Socials:
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@MoSamuels1

My Socials:
Instagram - Darrenlee.ks
LinkedIn - Darren Lee
YouTube - Darren Lee

(00:00) Preview and Intro
(00:41) Life in Asia
(02:36) Being Aware of Your Emotions
(05:30) Delusion in Western Society and Personal Accountability  
(08:30) Having an Entrepreneurial Circle and Learning from Others
(13:14) Starting a YouTube Channel 
(15:43) Facing and Overcoming Fears  
(22:10) Managing Dopamine Burnouts
(24:12) Leaning Into Bigger Goals 
(28:22) How To Streamline Focus and Efforts 
(30:39) Mo’s Content Creation Process 
(36:01) Procrastination vs. Speed in Execution
(41:10) Growing Outside Your Comfort Zone
(46:39) Overcoming Hair Loss
(51:45) Debunking Finasteride Myths 
(53:23) Importance of Consistency in Hair Care 
(57:25) Alcohol Impact on Health and Fitness 
(01:07:32) UK and Irish Drinking Culture 
(01:10:29) Balancing Fun and Responsibility 
(01:13:30) Evolving Social Habits 

Transcript

Mo Sam: 0:00

Starting is the hardest part. Starting anything is the most difficult thing, and I'm a perfectionist. I want things to be perfect.

Darren Lee: 0:06

I'm much more an entrepreneur than like anything else, and that's a blessing and a curse, and what that just means is like I'm very comfortable with shipping things really quickly.

Mo Sam: 0:14

I honestly think I would have not needed the hair transplant if I took finasteride or start taking it sooner. I think that the biggest thing that you can do to optimize your testosterone is ignore all this shit online about all these like specific things. If someone tells you that there's like a specific one thing that you need to do, it's fucking snake oil.

Darren Lee: 0:31

Before we start this week's episode, I have one little favor to ask you. Can you please leave a five-star rating below, so we can help more people every single week. Thank you.

Mo Sam: 0:41

I like food, bro. I'm a'm a. I'm a man. I love to cook. I love how things taste. I think like foods are fucking art. So I always try and even if I'm eating poverty calories, I always try and eat well as in, make actually tasty shit, rather than just being a bodybuilder.

Darren Lee: 0:54

How did you find that? Asia for that?

Mo Sam: 0:57

Oh man, I loved it. I think Asian food is the best in the world. Um, like, I walk around England and I can just tell why 60 of people are fat and obese. It's like you look at what they're eating and then you look at the food quality and what people eat day to day in asia. You know, like bali's a little bit more westernized I've been there's a lot more fast food, but places like more rural, like obviously, um, china, japan, thailand, uh, vietnam, cambodia, going kind of down the the ladder of the hierarchy rawness, it's just the food is just so good there, like there's a reason why people live so long and they're so healthy it's also do lifestyle factors right.

Darren Lee: 1:32

Like you know, most people that come to bali or thailand, they're like, oh, I'm so happy here, like life is so much easier. It's like, yeah, because it's fucking sunny all the time. Like your food, yeah, four dollars for a day. So it's like, with all the different factors leading into it, leads you to having a better life. Like no matter how hard, like my business is. Like when I wake up and I see the sun shining and it's 32 degrees, 33 degrees, and we're going for a run or going to the gym, it's nearly hard to not be happy, right, or to not be positive, at the very least.

Mo Sam: 2:02

Yeah, yeah, bro. I said to myself what? Because I've managed to escape the uk quite a few times in winter, some some years I do it some years I don't like. The first time I moved to portugal during lockdown, um, I was like bun this, fuck this, I'll get over to portugal, managed to escape, live there for a little bit and then this year I've lived in thailand, obviously across the winter, and every time I'm I'm just no matter how anything else externally is going overall. Obviously I have my issues like hiccups of happiness, but overall my happiness, just purely due to weather, like you said, is massively different, mate.

Darren Lee: 2:36

It's so interesting, right? Because for someone like yourself who's been through so much shit, you have a very good awareness of, like your emotional state, like when you're in thailand. You were saying you're not happy or you're aware of things happening? Why do you think that is?

Darren Lee: 2:52

an awareness in what sense like you have an awareness to say like, oh, like I need to make a change, or things. Things aren't going well, or more like your emotional state right at that level. Maybe it could be to do with, like all the surgeries you've been through, all the ups and downs you've been to, but most guys would sue it at that point and just say I'm in fucking thailand, give me a chang beer and let me go to some bucket party. Right, it's almost like you have an ability to slow down and be like oh, this is actually how I'm feeling. Maybe I want to make these changes and stuff. Was that always the case? Case, are my million miles off there?

Mo Sam: 3:27

No, I don't think it was too much. I've never really considered this. I thought of this. It's just obviously your own. Thoughts and feelings and emotions are your own, so you just assume that everyone else has that trail of thought and trail of thinking.

Mo Sam: 3:38

But if I look back on it, I'd say something that's definitely maybe more mindful and maybe able to observe my emotions better as cliche as it is is meditating. I've done that every day for the last, probably coming up to four years ago. Like I started doing it, man, I basically had a the whole classic white person had a monstrous psychedelic experience where I was transported to another realm of reality and thought I was dead. And then since then, every day, I've started meditating because, like this is great, like I want to, I want to kind of keep this, uh, make this mindset stick. So I think that's been a big one for me in terms of being more aware and being more able to observe my thoughts, feelings and emotions better. And then I think it also comes down to if you want to tie it into the leg stuff as well you I'm a firm believer in you can do anything you want to do.

Mo Sam: 4:26

You can change your reality, you can achieve anything that you put your mind to it. So if you're not happy, it's like we can live in this state of ignorance, delusion, where we just repress it and push it away and then it's only going to make the fucking problem worse. Ultimately, or you can not be a pussy, tackle the problem ahead and be like okay, be very real with yourself and not delusional. Be like, okay, what is causing me to feel like this way and what are the steps I need to take to fix this thing? Because ultimately, you have control over your reality the things you can control, you can control. Things you can't control, you can't control. So who gives a fuck?

Darren Lee: 4:58

yeah, 100 man. I'm reading, uh, dan cole's focus at the Earth of Focus at the moment, and the very beginning of it is about discerning between what is actually in our control and what is not in our control. And, like Western society and a lot of societies will tell you, like you know, this isn't your fault. Like you're fat, you're lazy, you're broke, it's normal, right, the vast majority of people are fat, lazy and broke. Therefore, if you are suiting on watching Netflix, that's completely normal over there.

Darren Lee: 5:30

And I almost grew up with that mentality that like you're going to grow up and you're not going to have money, because you know middle-class, lower-class family, we're not going to have money.

Darren Lee: 5:38

And then it wasn't until I kind of left the world of university that I was like wait, you can have money, you can have freedom, you can be fit, you can be shredded, you can travel the world. So it's interesting, right. It's a fact that, like a lot of, I've learned this myself a lot of the beliefs that I would grown up around not necessarily programming to me with my parents which was a big indicator, 90 of them came out to be not true. Uh, especially around having to work with people, having to follow other people's plan, and this is actually an interesting one. I remember my early jobs like nine to five jobs in big companies, like prestigious companies in London, and guys telling me that I was going to get out of shape at the end of my 20s, that it was a phase, being fit and healthy was a phase and I was going to get that fucking office belly. But where do you think that comes from? Like you think that's like insecurity or is just mainly, uh, society, especially like in the western world?

Mo Sam: 6:34

I think it's more painful for people to accept that they're the problem and it's their fault, the situation that are in, whether they're fat, whether they're broke. It's a lot more painful to be like, okay, like I failed, I haven't got what it takes to do this thing, to be very real with yourself, but rather than going okay, or versus going, for example, oh, it's something else's fault, it's my job's fault, it's society's fault, I feel like we, especially in the west man, we breed this like this, like fucking mindset of mediocrity, like, oh, it's okay to be this, it's okay to be fat, lazy, gluttonous and not doing. It's not your fault well, it fucking is your fault. And it's like it's okay to be fat. If you want to be fat, but at least own it, at least be very honest with yourself that it's it's not someone else's fault, it's entirely your own fault and if you want to change that, you can change it. And this is the whole thing of like victimhood and victim mentality and and not being able to change our circumstance, which is an absolute killer, I think, dude, and like you're saying about university as well, about when you're, when you're in that job, and people being like, oh, you're not there to get this body, etc. Etc. It just comes down to as well like we're so especially in the uk, I feel like we're so, or the west in general. We're so blinkered by what other people are doing in in the sense that people want to drag you down.

Mo Sam: 7:45

If anyone is doing better than the normal, they're trying to do things differently. It makes other people feel bad. It's like hate comments. When I get hate comments on TikTok, or especially TikTok, it shows yourself to a new audience or YouTube. Obviously it's not nice, but I don't give a fuck man. I just think, like, what sort of person is going to sit there and get emotionally affected by something that I'm doing? A person online they're never going to meet, they have no idea who they are, purely for existing like how fucking miserable must that person's life be? So yeah, I think taking ownership and being very real and delusional not delusional of yourself is like the first step to actually making a change. If you do want to do it and you can can fucking do it man.

Darren Lee: 8:30

You know, it's so interesting, like the circles that were in like broadly in like entrepreneurs, creators, fitness space. When I see someone doing well, I'm like that's fucking sick, like how can I take that into my world? It's like I was watching your videos, looking at your thumbnails and stuff, being like fucking hell, like the way like literally the effects in his videos are so sick, like how could I? That could be applicable to our podcast. And looking at someone like louis I remember louis put up something about uluwatu the other day was a drone footage and I was like how could I do a drone footage or something else, just like learning through people and like honestly bouncing ideas off each other, like that's the whole idea of like having a strong network of people. But again, it's it's to do with your surroundings, right, but you do need to break away from that. I think that's why travel is the best you know. Nature is the fucking best teacher. It's so cliche, but it really is.

Darren Lee: 9:19

In the beginning, I think for me, I was quite young coming away from this and the way I observed it was that when you go off to do your own stuff. So it's quite interesting. I learned this from Charlie Morgan, it was like the impact of time on everything to do with life, right? So let's say, you come out of university, we both did economics and I'm like all right, cmo, like you're in this job over here, I'm in this job over here. We're kind of the same, so we're kind of friends. But as time splits off and mo becomes a fucking fucking jack chad and goes off over here and then I'm just becoming like a fat, miserable prick over here, that's when there's a there's a, there's a delineation between the two, and that's when you start having resentment, regret, all this kind of stuff. But when mo's over here, he's not looking back, almost like you know what are my old friends doing? He's just pushing on with his life the way it should be.

Darren Lee: 10:09

And I think that's when you're going to get into a stage whereby I call it the category of one effect. You're in your own category, doesn't matter what's going on around you. You're not a competitor, you're not competing with other youtubers and other creators on instagram and tiktok. You're just doing your own shit. You're waking up every day, you're getting your steps in, getting your cardio, in working towards your next goal, and you honestly don't give a shit about what's going on around you. I think that's the way I kind of view a lot of this stuff versus oh my God, comparison effect. Look at his obliques, look where he's going, look at that chick. You know it's catching yourself in the wrong process. You end up playing the wrong game effectively.

Mo Sam: 10:44

Yeah, man, it's a bizarre one Because I've thought, I've pondered about this long and hard recently. It's something I've thought about and I always used to preach like not giving a fuck about anything, like not caring about the opinions of others. But then I've kind of really delved into this over these last few months and it's impossible not to care about the opinions of others unless you're some sociopath or complete psychopath who's a self-obsessed narcissist. It's just not doable. But then I was hanging out so I said to you before it's cool, I hung out with Hamza and he had a private mastermind and a few guys that are absolutely killing it.

Mo Sam: 11:17

I was lucky enough to get invited to that in London and I was in this room full of guys, young lads, that are absolutely slaying in business. They've flown over from Dubai or whatever to be here or in this fucking beautiful hotel and like that they're doing stuff. For example like uh, I don't know, just, let's say, take some pictures down the street or filming themselves down the street, and like people are looking at them, like what are these dickheads kind of doing, or that they're doing that. And then I realized that these people and it's, it's all. It is a sprinkle of narcissism.

Mo Sam: 11:46

But these people don't, aren't even on the same fucking level as everyone else, like they don't even put themselves in the same category. So they do care what people think, but they care about the people who matter, that are doing a similar thing to them in terms of, in terms of that, and then it's like that they disregard the opinions of the people that don't matter and aren't doing what they want to do, because why would that matter? And yeah, bro, I think that's a. Really that's something I realized recently. It's like you kind of have to elevate your social circle and spend time with people that are doing better than you and kind of detach from those roots in order to grow and in order to see, in order to break free of that. Because I'm from a small town man, like I'm from a small town in cornwall, and there's something that in ireland, though not cornwall, take it no, but it's the same effect, right.

Darren Lee: 12:36

Tiny, tiny, yeah, yeah middle of nowhere.

Mo Sam: 12:39

I said, no way, you don't sound very coolish to me, but uh, but yeah, but um, but yeah, bro, it's like I remember and I absolutely love the guy, like I haven't seen him in years but I'm still good friends with him. But I remember when before I started doing youtube and I said to my mate I was in the car with him, was driving, we're driving to surf, like all we used to do really was surf down there because there's nothing else to do and I said to my mate like oh, I, I think I think I'm gonna start in, I want to start a youtube channel like and document, like fitness and gym and other things, and just like start making videos about this. Like what do you think of it? And it was like mo, like I really don't think that's a good idea, like it's like what I think you said, like it's pretty gay, what are you gonna?

Mo Sam: 13:14

Like people are gonna like it's gonna laugh at you, gonna look like an idiot, like that, as in telling me not to do it, and I was like fuck, like I almost, like I almost didn't do it. I was like you know what? Like what? Why not Like? Why don't I just go for it and see what happens and kind of disregard his opinion, and then it's just like that man about not getting caught up in those little. I forgot the initial question I've blabbed on for so long.

Darren Lee: 13:39

But not getting caught up in don't matter, I think for sure, man, and there's two ways to look at that too, right? So, like the guys who excel, naturally, uh, they have a superiority complex, so they believe they're bigger than the system they're bigger than the problem.

Darren Lee: 13:51

They're bigger than the, the problem they're trying to solve. So this is the, the uber ceo, who's trying to build like the biggest fucking uber app of all time, it's like and a crazy challenge to undertake, but the same time, then, for someone who's like just starting, the way I view it is if you've ever read Rick Rubin's. Well, the chapter is called the Beginner Mind in it, which is like we always want to have a beginner perspective.

Mo Sam: 14:14

What's the book?

Darren Lee: 14:15

going. It's his latest book. I have it up here. It's called the Creative Act. The Creative Act.

Mo Sam: 14:20

I've written down the other book you said as well. I've got a habit of like holding book titles to create that okay you.

Darren Lee: 14:25

You'll love this man, but he has a concept in it called that the beginner mind. He recorded a great podcast with Rory Sutherland on this recently, last year and the process was basically that, like going into everything, you should be looking at it from the creative aspect. What it is that I truly want to do, like for you, it's create right. You wanted to create videos, you wanted to share your knowledge, share your passion for fitness, and that became like infectious because 160 000 other people also share the same love, for you have right. So when you're looking at something, it's like having that beginner's perspective being like can I do this out of genuine curiosity? It doesn't have to be creative, it can be anything. So it's like me getting into running again.

Darren Lee: 14:59

Right, I'm doing long runs now and I honestly don't give a shit about the outcome. I'm just doing it because I enjoy it and it feels good and whatever happens from there, and I think looking at it from that lens is almost like a nicer way to ease yourself into something. So, whether it's a business content writing, instagram, twitter, tiktok, you can kind of ease yourself in with less expectations, and I feel like that's the first mile effect. Right, fear is a mile wide and an inch deep uh, for this exact reason, because it's all in the top six inches of your fucking brain versus how can we move forward like so kind of to make this actual for people. Like how would you advise people going zero to one with, like some of their biggest fears that they're trying to face?

Mo Sam: 15:43

it's about boundary pushing and it's incredibly simple. It's the simplest thing in the world, but it doesn't make it easy and that's again it's like another thing why people don't do it. It's like the solution to a problem is often very simple, but it's not hard. People want easy, quick, painless, and it's like the way to get over anything that you fear. I've spoken about this a lot and I've had a lot of fears growing up. I've been kind of thrown into the deep end with many things. It's just about finding what scares you and using it as an indicator. So going towards fear rather than running away from it, that is step one. When something elevates your heart rate, whatever, it is like approaching a girl at a bar, uh, like coffee shop, et cetera, et cetera, like, rather than turning away from it and not doing it, it's about using fear as an indicator and using it. Okay, I need to grow in this area. So this thing that scares me, I'm actually going to do and go towards. And then already, by doing that, you've separated yourself from 95% of people who use fear as oh no, I've got to go to my safe space. I don't like this feeling run away from it. So then, by conditioning yourself to lean into those fears, like using it as an indicator and then going into it. You're gradually going to force yourself outside your comfort zone, bit by bit, and then it's effectively exposure therapy. So all you're doing is you're doing something that scares you a little bit and then you get a bit used to it, and then you do a little bit more and then you get a bit used to it, and then every time you're basically expanding the circle of fears, what scares you, and you're just becoming this more towards this person that you want to be.

Mo Sam: 17:14

It's like the example of I'm actually really scared of heights. So I remember I used to go yeah, I'm actually really scared of heights, man, yeah, and I used to go climbing with my climbing and my dad. He used to like maybe he's installed a bit of this on me, but he used to force me to go climbing with him and I remember being like 1015 foot up a climbing wall when I was probably that I was six, seven years old and just cry in my eyes out like please, like let me down, because it was so high and so terrified, and then he would like force me to climb and force me to go up it's probably child abuse now, but it's character building at the same time and then, uh, he, I'd go, I'd get higher and higher and higher and higher and then eventually I kind of get used to it. It'd still be really really, really scary. And then, for example, as I've got older I've done a bit more climbing as well. As I've grown up I stopped doing it. I've got back into it and kind of had that terrifying like fear of heights et cetera, et cetera. But then it's like, the more you do it, you go a little bit high, you push past that fear and you're like, oh, that isn't too bad, I didn't die. And then you can kind of increase from that.

Mo Sam: 18:17

So if you well, you probably know, dude, I have a skydiving license, I like to skydive. It's course for this very reason, like using for as indicated, I wanted to do it without ever having done a skydive. So I did the first tandem skydive after paying for the whole course, and it was the worst thing I'd ever done, mate, I thought I was gonna throw up, pass out, like die, there was none of this. Like like Will Smith's, like oh yeah, you jump out the plane, you get this like blissful euphoria. Absolutely not. Like I think I'm just a putty, because I didn't get any of that, I just wanted to, wanted to die. I was like this, I'm dead, I, I, um, I forgot to breathe as well.

Mo Sam: 18:51

So when I like you're sitting on the door of a plane, you the instructor's like would it go on three? So you go one, and then he goes on two, so you don't hold him to the door, and then, as soon as you go into freefall, everyone's like this is where it gets. But now this is just where it gets. Absolutely like. My brain was just like yeah, you're dead. Now, like this is the end of your life. Held my breath the whole way down. Um, cause my ears to pop. I was like all bunged up. I couldn't hear anything, thought it was going to pass out, got on the ground out and then we're like right now it's time for your solo one. So, yeah, so so you do one tandem, one strapped to someone, and then after that you're effectively on your own. You jump out of two instructors with you, but you've got your own parachute, you're not tethered to them at all. Um, you just jump out of the plane and then it's like, if you fuck up, what the fuck you fuck up and yeah, man.

Mo Sam: 19:41

But the story behind this is that I did that second one, or the first one, by myself. It was awful, it was terrible. Second one was also terrible, but then it started to get like slowly better and by the time I'd done 10 or 20 of them. It's like the fear subsides and then this like magical thing happens, where there's actually psychology behind this. I can't really remember it, but when we overcome something that we fear, it's almost like it's kind of where adrenaline junkies come from. It's like this addictive feeling because we've overcome this incredibly difficult task, that our brain is like you're going to die, you've survived and you've overcome it and you've kind of conquered it, and that feeling is really, really good.

Mo Sam: 20:21

So it gets to a point, like with me and Scott in any way, where now it's like it's no fear, just pure enjoyment from that place, where it's absolutely terrifying and it's like obviously not going to that straight away, but it's about instilling that mindset, or building that mindset, where you're stepping outside of your comfort zone, bit by bit, doing little things. Let's say you're socially anxious or socially awkward. Maybe you can try and make two second eye contact and give them a little nod as you walk past with someone and then you try and say next step would be saying good morning to them on a morning walk. Next thing would say try and spark up a conversation, just building up, building up. And it's the same thing for all fears, use it as an indicator.

Darren Lee: 20:57

Do you want to launch a podcast for your business but you don't know where to start? Remove the stress, pressure and all the overwhelm that comes with it by working with Podcast University. If you're an ambitious individual who wants to build your influence online, grow your own podcast and also stand out from the crowd, podcast University is for you. We help you with the strategy, equipment, the content, your guests, everything you need to create a top tier podcast. If you want to learn, learn more, check out podcast university and start your podcast journey today. Man, that's such a good example.

Darren Lee: 21:29

It was like I just spoke with alex michael recently. He's based in dubai and uh, michael, and he's on like 300 in a year, and I said exactly this was like how did you do it? Exact same two from skydiving. He said it's gotten so crazy now that he's doing like five or six a day, but again, it was a fear. Right, it was a fear, but it's the conditioning at the end of it that he feels perfectly fine, so now he can basically do anything as a result. Right, it's like you're using it as a barometer and this is what how can I skills to some degree stack? Right, you do one thing and then you realize okay, I didn't die from it. How can I add on another thing? How can I add on another thing he actually made a good point that I thought you might find this interesting that you can get like a dopamine, like burnout from skydiving. Have you heard about this?

Darren Lee: 22:10

okay, no, no go on, if you, if you dive like too many times in a day or over a weekend, you basically have like get adrenaline, like fucking fucking it like burns your adrenaline basically, and afterwards then you can get like a depression stage for like a day because you're like, because you're like basically just at home like trying to like recover, because your brain is firing for like fucking four days straight.

Darren Lee: 22:33

Now I don't know, I was just kind of funny because it's funny, kind of side tangent, because like you, were literally jumping out of a plane, right now I can believe that.

Mo Sam: 22:42

I don't know if it's. I haven't actually experienced like a depression afterwards, but you, you are. Even though, even though I'm pretty chill, I'm pretty zen now, uh, your heart rate is obviously still going to be elevated, so it is like at the end of the day, you do feel fucked. I normally do five or six in a day, sometimes seven, if I'm at like, uh, jumping somewhere in spain, for example, and it's like my heart rate is going to be like 110 for probably the duration of the day, and then I pack my parachute as well, which is, I'm pretty bad at it, so that's strenuous as well in the heat. So it's equivalent to probably doing like seven, eight hours of like light cardio. So, yeah, you do definitely get that fatigue. But yeah, that reminded me of something. What did you mention a minute ago, before that?

Darren Lee: 23:28

what did you mention a minute ago before?

Mo Sam: 23:30

that. Was it the multiple, multiple drops or the depression from it? I can't remember for now. It's just just before that I can't remember, it doesn't matter both of our brains are frightened man, it's all right. Yeah, my 1700 calorie days and, uh, still probably being stimmed out and pre-workout from this gym session is um, melting my, my brain.

Darren Lee: 23:46

Let's chat about some of the prep work. So we were chatting beforehand about like going after big goals. I think it's like on our brains, like the type A ADHD brains, that are just like they need something. Right, we just need something. How come like out of everything you could have done and like you're running your business, you're creating content, you're doing a bunch of shit. Why was it that you wanted to go back to like bodybuilding versus like trying something different?

Mo Sam: 24:12

I think it's because it's almost like what you touched on earlier with that book. I feel like I'm very good at doing things that complement each other, so I'll do something that I enjoy and love doing, but they all tie in very well in a weird way. So it's like I used to be a videographer, for example. I used to do videography work. I used to work on film, and I didn't start doing that because I wanted to make money from it. I started doing that because I enjoyed it and it just so happened that that gave me the skills to make YouTube videos, for example. So it's almost like one of the reasons that I did that is because I said to you I can't remember if it was the start of this podcast or before the podcast but I had a massive surgery, a lymph node transplant, like Um, and then I was like to myself okay, I w, I want to do, I want to do something really hard and it is either triathlon, ironman or a men's physique show. I wanted to do one of those two things and then I kind of like started training, like recovering from the surgery, and that idea got pushed down to the back of my head and then it got to, maybe around the end of the year, and I just realized that I was living in Thailand, a sick life. I just realized that I wasn't happy. I wasn't didn't feel like I was going anywhere or progressing. I was like I need, need a struggle, I need something that's difficult to get me in, that fucking locked in headspace and I was like what was the heart? One of the hardest things I've ever done. Obviously, all the surgeries that I've had don't really want to put myself through a surgery for no reason.

Mo Sam: 25:32

Second thing was the. Was it competing in the past? A men's physique show? That's one of the hardest things that I've done. And I was like I promised I'd never do it, but I was like you know what? Like the I said to myself at 2024 for me is going to be I've got it written down no-transcript, healthy, it's not maintainable, but all it comes down to at the end of the day is it's like anything that's worth having.

Mo Sam: 26:10

It's a fucking mind game. It's about ticking those boxes, doing your cardio every day, day, even when you don't want to being organized. Doing your steps every day, even when I'm doing. At the minute, I probably spend about three hours in the gym in total two hours training, one hour doing cardio, and I'm doing 12,000 steps a day on top of that as well, and that's ignoring everything with the diet, etc. Etc. Then obviously I've got everything else to run as well, whilst being starving and emaciated and like literally, there's so many things happen to your body that you're that are not talked about. So, yeah, it gets a little bit. A little bit difficult. My character building man 100.

Darren Lee: 26:43

So like, let's, let's go through that process of like leaning into her thing. So that's super fucking interesting where, where gene that comes from for you? Because, like for me, it's about, you know, I don't want to be drifting, and I was drifting before in previous jobs and I know what that feels like, but when I'm pushing towards something. So for me it was like the podcast initially.

Darren Lee: 27:02

Well, I competed when I was younger, then it was like the podcast, and then it was like making that really good, and then we broke that into a business and then that business grew and then I left the job and then I wanted to push harder and then we wanted to get to seven figures and then we wanted to get to eight figures and then I wanted to push harder and then we wanted to get to seven figures and then we wanted to get to eight figures, and then it's like it's always like chasing, but then I've added in more fitness stuff than as a, as a subsequent second cause of effect.

Darren Lee: 27:24

But some people would say like, oh, like you know, you have to appreciate the good times off of this, which I actually genuinely do, but then it's still, I want to push more and that's why I think, like we have a similar brain in that way Like how do you decide what to lean into, is the question Like how do you decide what to actually pursue that's worth pursuing, that isn't just pursuing something for the sake of it? Basically.

Mo Sam: 27:52

That's a difficult question because I'm very equally. I have this ADHD brain and I love to pursue, try and do everything. So I'm really trying to streamline and refine and refine my focus and only do a couple of things. That's a difficult one. I'd say it's a combination of go on, what you're gonna.

Darren Lee: 28:14

I'd say you do a lot of different things. Well though, it's like you do a lot of things at 80%, versus kind of pissing at random stuff. Though.

Mo Sam: 28:22

Yeah, I think it's realizing that if you try and do everything, everything is going to fail, if that makes sense. So you can't have it all. You do have to pick the few things that you need to focus on. It's like the most successful guys that they're always known for one thing. It's like if you name like what Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson, like they're all known for one thing. They're not known for 10 different things, like Jeff Bezos starting Amazon. So it's like you do. You, if you pick everything, you're going to fail and you have to pick select few things to do.

Mo Sam: 28:54

And then I feel like in my life right now, I haven't made it. I'm not where I want to be. It doesn't mean that I'm not happy, but I'm not where I want to be. I'm not, at this end point, ultimately, where I want to get to. So I'm still in like a little bit of an exploratory phase, but in order to tackle okay, rather than doing loads of different things spread out, I'm still doing things that are intertwined with each other and even if I fail at a certain thing, the skills that I've acquired from trying that thing are going to complement other things and improve them in the future.

Mo Sam: 29:23

It's like okay, training, for example, building the experience, training. It's going to benefit my social media. It's going to benefit my coaching business I can coach people. It's going to make more clients want to be with me. It's going to instill a mindset that's going to leach into business, whatever it is of working hard, of ticking the boxes, of doing the shit that needs to be done when you don't want to do it. And then it's like okay, when I used to make, like films for fun, videography, it's like okay, I was originally pursuing a career in film that I didn't want to do because it's shit ultimately. And then it's like, okay, I applied that. I can apply that to taking photos in the gym. Again, I can apply that to youtube. I can apply that to if I wanted to. Everything failed. Tomorrow I could start, go back into videography and start a business, marketing or you know. So it's just about that I like that man.

Darren Lee: 30:07

I like that a lot. Like it's almost like you found that ikigai intersection already, but intuitively, like it came from just a good dress. Like like fitness content, videography, having a good life, living a good lifestyle as well, and kind of binding them all together. I actually want to ask you about the the content side specifically. So, like kickoff sessions has always been like helping younger people live a richer, more fulfilling life, but we've always focused on like building businesses. A lot of stuff that we're building, that I'm building specifically as well it's always content. It's always content focused.

Darren Lee: 30:39

Every single business I've built has been organic from content and I think it's just a huge lever that people can pull that almost people have like a lot of mental barriers thinking that, like you know, you need to have all the equipment, you need to have everything in that kind of way. I'd like to get your thoughts on like your process for how you create videos. Like, is there some ways you do you think of it when you're like doing your cardio? Like, how do you come up with a video ideas? Do you do your editing? Like, talk me through that process.

Mo Sam: 31:06

In terms of YouTube. So I originally started it from from a really weird approach. So I just create for the sake of creating, like I never wanted to be a YouTuber. I never wanted for it to blow up. I probably did want it to blow up, but I would just make stuff because I loved making it. So the last couple of years, I'm like okay. Well, the last year, I'm like okay, I need to treat this more like a business and actually aim to grow it and kind of switch up the style of content, because I used to make anything and everything.

Mo Sam: 31:33

If you follow me for any length of time, I've made videos breaking into festivals. I've made videos meeting up with girls on Tinder. I've made videos on like motivation, on mindset, literally, you, you name it. I've kind of done it. So I was like, okay, I need to. I need to kind of pick what I'm going to niche down on and focus down on and what am I good at? What value can I bring people? What's going to help the most people? And am I good at what value can I bring people? What's going to help the most people? And then I'd meet people in the gym like every now and then someone would spot me and be like oh, I love your YouTube videos or something like that. And the first thing I'd always ask them I still do it now is like, what videos do you like? And it always comes down to something relating to mindset, something relating to improving yourself, fitness or motivation, and then that's kind of what brings people the most value and like, okay, that that gives me a purpose in terms of creating.

Mo Sam: 32:20

Then, when it comes to actually making videos, now what I do is the actual video ideas. I'll just have the most random times. It's like normally when I'm not doing anything. So driving is a really good one. Like, yeah, if I'm, if I'm driving, like I fucking love driving. Just like four or five hours sat in the car, because it's the only time I'm actually with my thoughts and haven't got any distractions for a long period. Like I'm not going to meditate for four or five hours or anything like crazy like that.

Mo Sam: 32:44

So when I'm in the car, quite often I'll just literally sit there, listen to some tunes, um, chill out, relax, and I'll just think of shit, and then quite often the ideal pop into my head. Or maybe I'll be in the gym half for a set and ideal pop into my head, then I'll stick it in my notes and then basically put a title down in the notes. Um, I've got like folders for YouTube shorts, reels. Put a folder down into that notes and I'll write like the title of the video or the title of the show and basically just that kind of premise for it. Then what I'll do is I'll bulk it out a little bit, I'll transfer it into Notion and then in Notion I've got a folder for videos where I'm videos that are yet to be filmed and then it's like a little table so I can have a template videos that we filmed.

Mo Sam: 33:24

I have, like I brainstorm 10 titles, I brainstorm a variety of thumbnails and then I brainstorm like an intro, a middle and an end for those videos to create some structure for it, for those videos to create some structure for it, like who's my avatar, who's the audience, how can I add value to people? And then basically just come up with a rough kind of script for like what I'm going to say in that video. So that's kind of how I've switched up a lot differently recently in terms of the actual being more thoughtful with my content creation, because I literally dude, pick up a camera and just film some shit which is not sustainable and I sustainable and I felt like I was burnt out from it true, true, but man, this, this approach you're doing, is fucking sick.

Darren Lee: 33:57

Like I'm a nerd with this stuff, like I'm such like I'm in my business with all of our like podcast clients, like, so you run multiple podcasts. You run people like Rob Lips, his podcast and a few big boys, but like I'm so much in the detail with this stuff voluntarily I don't need to be, but I love the idea of like how you think of ideas, like how you come up with ideas, how you scope out the like, the concepts and whatnot. So I love this. You know you mentioned there about the. You find ideas from weird pieces.

Darren Lee: 34:23

So rick rubin spoke about this process, which is like you want to do things that are mutually exclusive. So he talks about, like washing the dishes. So washing the dishes is like a meditative process, because there's an input and output and an outcome, and in the process of doing that you start thinking like, oh, like, maybe that note that I was playing like the keynote on that fucking guitar. If I did it this way, it would sound like this. And then you start getting different inspirations. So, uh, was it da vinci? I think it was da vinci. I could have fucked this up. He would fuck two different colors painting against the wall, okay, so like a blue and a yellow, and he would watch it fall and then he would just observe it and then he would have like a different idea with something completely different. He would quite literally watch paint dry and that was the kind of idea inspiration from it.

Darren Lee: 35:16

So, like a lot of shows that we work with, they go zero to one. They're starting. You know, a lot of the people will get very uh, bogged down on, like what should I say? What should I do this, what should what, what do I do? And my approach is like fall forward, like have a general approach, and then just fucking start recording, like you did initially, and then you kind of think like okay, let's slow down a small bit, let's put a bit a few bells and whistles on top of it, you know, and then you can start getting a bit nerdy with notion and a bit flashy. But it's interesting, right, it's like you had a lot of success just making it up with your, with your phone or your camera, and now it's when it's more strategic. It's like you are using all those skills you based, that you built and and then their baseline for going forward.

Mo Sam: 36:01

A hundred percent and it's like starting starting is the hardest part, so starting anything is the most difficult thing and, like, I'm a perfectionist as well dude, I don't know if you're the same, but I strive for I want things to be perfect, and it's probably something that's held me back massively, because I'll either not do stuff, I'll actively procrastinate on not doing it because I want it to be perfect, and it makes me feel it doesn't make me feel good if it's not perfect.

Mo Sam: 36:20

Or maybe it's like some insecurity where I feel like if I do something and it fails, it's going to feel awful. So it's easier not to do it and I want to make it as perfect way. But I think like, yeah, a massive one is just getting is just death by numbers. So just keeping on doing that thing whether it's like Instagram posts, whether it's whatever it is just like keep doing it, throwing shit at the wall and eventually one piece of shit is going to stick, and then you can kind of get an indicator in terms of like okay, which way do I go with this content? Which way do I go? Do I go with this thing?

Darren Lee: 36:49

But you think really this is interesting. You actually look back on it and think, okay, what, which one worked, and which which direction should I go? But a lot of people will stop at that point and just think, oh, it's not working. Now, actually, unfortunately, I would say I'm the opposite to you in that approach.

Darren Lee: 37:04

I'm very much more uh, like I've learned that like I'm much more an entrepreneur than like anything else, and that's a blessing and a curse, and what that just means is like I'm very comfortable with shipping things really quickly, like releasing stuff, moving things really fast like releasing posts, releasing content, writing copy, like speed is like I always think, like done is better than perfect, done is better than perfect.

Darren Lee: 37:30

And just keep on moving forward. Now, that came from building five different companies in my early twenties and then I'm all crashing and burning, right. But that's my brain. It's like, how do we build a prototype? Because I still have like frameworks, tools, processes, systems, but it's like once they're in place, we can just ship the fucking thing and just get some feedback, yeah, which is a blessing and a curse. Right, I'm not at 160,000 subscribers, but I feel like if I procrastinated, I definitely would just be fucking nowhere too, right. So again, it's the, it's a, it's the creative and logical brain working side by side.

Mo Sam: 38:17

I feel like that's the way to do things, though it's kind of a balance between the two. It's it's like don't get caught up on on perfection and don't get caught up on I completely agree that we'll just get stuff out there before it's even ready. Like, do it, set yourself a top, like a, like a limit, do it to the best of your ability and then just like, get it out there and pump it. Then I think also it's like a little sprinkle of okay, looking at what works, what can we do, do better as well, and actually going in a going in a given direction with it. So it's like me and my YouTube, for example.

Mo Sam: 38:44

Obviously I've completely switched up the style of content that I've done fairly recently. So it's effectively for me like I'm very aware it's almost like starting a new channel again. So it's like I have the option to I could start a new channel. I might do it eventually, who knows? But I've started to regain some momentum slowly on the videos and see what's worked, but effectively I'm trying to reach a completely new audience. So I might as well be starting from square one Again. I've gone from making these festival party Tinder videos with some weird like occasional motivation stuff to making more fitness-based, motivational-based, like sit-down style of content. So it's like I'm in that kind of growth phase where I'm just like I've got to pump stuff out, I've got to get more on it, and then I've got to focus on what works and eliminate what doesn't.

Darren Lee: 39:27

Dude that reminds me so much of like Joe Delaney's channel. That's exactly what he was in.

Mo Sam: 39:33

I've chatted to Joe a lot about this.

Darren Lee: 39:37

Yeah, yeah, exactly what. Yeah, he was in. I've chatted to joe a lot about this, yeah, yeah, and I remember he I edited the fucking podcast man. He said this to rob on rob's first podcast, like we released the first one, and he said the transition has to be slow than fast. So, like joe did all the tinder videos, all those types of videos, and then he slowly transitioned to fitness education, fitness education only and then that process was like, I think, man, I think he said like 18 months he was slowly weaning across over. It was during like COVID times, and then he created the second channel then, which was just called Joe Delaney, for just things with his family and whatnot right and they're like more of his cinematic exploration, just whatever he wants to do, but I just think it's

Darren Lee: 40:15

interesting. And there's also nothing wrong with that, right? Because, like you know, I always remember this. I said this to Louis the other day as well. We were having breakfast and I'll never forget this.

Darren Lee: 40:26

Joe put up a video before and it was like a Q&A and someone was like when are you going to Ibiza, when are you go to ibiza? And he was like I don't want to go anymore. He was like I've gotten to the age whereby my years in ibiza I've had a lot of fun and now I'm doing other things. But he was like yeah, I also don't want to be the person who's in the club, who's looking around a club at six o'clock in the morning and thinking I'd never be with these people sober. So why am I with them? Yeah, fucked up, basically. And then that's when I started doing the evolution of like moving away from it, and I think there's nothing wrong with that. It's more again, awareness, back to the awareness piece, being like am I fucking confident in my own ability enough to change tactic and not worry about some you know, random, fucking 21 year old's opinion on the internet? Basically.

Mo Sam: 41:10

Mm-hmm.

Darren Lee: 41:11

Yeah, interesting man. So you've done a nice movement there, yeah yeah, well, I feel like it's early days.

Mo Sam: 41:18

We're just seeing uh, seeing what happens with it really, and just uh going, going in a given direction and just putting our head down and producing some stuff. But it's an intro. Yeah, it's interesting with the, with the joey d like. I spoke to him a lot about this because he actually trains at the same gym as me as well. So I've recently, um, yeah, had a little session and talked to him about this a lot and uh, and yeah, bro, he's just a different breed, like the guy as well is. I don't know what it is, but have you chatted to him?

Darren Lee: 41:45

I've had him on a podcast. I found my 100.

Mo Sam: 41:47

Yeah, he's. He's just like, he's just built different like he's so seems so content and like I don't know what it is, but it's an admirable mindset is so like alien to me, which is fucking sick I love that man.

Darren Lee: 42:00

So actually let's, let's dig into that because you know, everyone on the fucking internet is trying to tell you about how much money they make and everyone's kind of falling into that. Like pad, I'd like to make money online space, but you're completely correct, like joe didn't never linked into that, you know. Uh, he actually openly takes a piss at that sometimes. But everyone going to dubai and running off credit cards. But again, what do you think that is? Do you think that's more of like a like being comfortable, being comfortable in your own skin, like having a good awareness that you don't need to be somebody? You're not. What do I think? What is? Do you think he's acting from the position of he? He's comfortable in his own himself, so he doesn't try to. He doesn't need to pretend to be someone that he's not, because he's more like self-aware of himself, right, like he's a very like stoic, philosophical, chill individual. It looks like he doesn't need to try to impress people.

Mo Sam: 42:49

Basically yeah, I, I reckon he's just very secure and has, and he's just content, like he's just content with what he has, his life that he has, he appreciates, appreciates it and it's like he's done very well for himself. But he just has that element of like being content with where he's currently at, which is a very good place and uh, and yeah, I think that's a good, I think it's a good thing to have, like a really good thing to have, because he's he's very successful, he's smashing it and it's like, but he's also content with what he has, which is like a rare thing. And I kind of aspire to get more of that mindset about appreciating appreciating where you are right now and being grateful for what you have. And it's like it's that constant paradox, isn't it? That juggling that between, okay, you've got to have some want for more in order to do more and be more if you want to do this like mega crazy thing, but equally, if you don't want to be miserable, you've got to appreciate where you're currently at and enjoy where you're currently at right now, like, look you're in, you're in a sick place in Bali. You're doing this. Uh, run it, run all these businesses doing this podcast. We're having a sick conversation together. This is our job, but I'm sure you still got dreams and aspirations, you know.

Mo Sam: 44:02

So, yeah, man, I reckon it's just about that, really isn't it? And also realizing that I think the realization kind of moving away from it, but the realization that if you are constantly chasing something that's just out of reach and you tell yourself you're going to be happy when you get to this point or do this thing, you are never going to be happy or content. And then and then for me it's like that was a realization, not a realization something I've read or something I learned on this kind of self-development, self-improvement journey. And it's like, okay, like you're never going to be happy if you base your happiness on this one thing that's in the future, like when I get this. So it's like you've got to appreciate the present moment, right now, with the things you do have, regardless of how shit it is or how shit it isn't.

Mo Sam: 44:44

Because it's like what's the saying, do you know? When you look back and you're like, oh, those were the good old days. Yeah, we're living in them, man. Yeah, you're living in the fucking good times. Now it's look back on this day like having brexit of louis in bali. You're gonna be somewhere else. You'll be like fuck, like remember that. That was incredible. So I guess it's just to have cultivating that and appreciating those things it's just so easy to get caught up on like other people's shit.

Darren Lee: 45:08

That's the reason why I asked with the you know, the joe, joe's perspective, because it's very much more introspective, like he's able to identify that, saying like you know, I'm happy out, I have my family kid, kid, I'm chilling, everything else is a bonus. I kind of view it as sometimes that from that perspective, like everything is bonus points because I already have everything that I need, right, like I'm fucking fit and healthy, I'm not going to die like tomorrow. But it's like you kind of have that kind of perspective and then, yes, you have like goals and dreams. But I think that's the reason why your prep has been going so well. Your prep has been going so well Because when you were a kid, doing it basically, or last time right, it's like, oh, I just can't wait to finish, can't wait to finish, can't wait to finish.

Darren Lee: 45:46

And I describe that between the infinite game and the finite game. So the infinite game continues forever. It's not about actually finishing the competition, it's about being fit forever. It's not about making money and becoming a millionaire, it's about building businesses forever. It's not about like making money and becoming a millionaire, it's about like building businesses forever. So relationships you don't get into a relationship for it to finish a month later right, it's infinite. That's the main goal, whereas a lot of guys are acting from like scarcity and it's finite, it's. I have to make this work in this instance, otherwise it can never work and that leads to just a life of like misery, basically. So it's a good way to basically be able to kind of bounce the two off, um, and it allows you then to be happier with okay, I'm not where I am, but I want to be able to get there and in the pursuit, yeah, it's going to be fucking roadblocks here or there, you know yeah let me ask you about hair loss.

Darren Lee: 46:39

So I don't know, have you've seen my channel? But one of my biggest videos of all time I've been around hair loss. So I have a fucking YouTube master's degree in hair loss.

Mo Sam: 46:51

Oh really. Yeah, man so give me a bit of backstory.

Darren Lee: 46:56

You're going to find this interesting.

Mo Sam: 46:58

Yeah, yeah, let's go, let's get it.

Darren Lee: 47:00

So I got hit with the hair loss fucking reaper when I was like 16, 17, just genetics or or whatever actually you might find this what we, what we hid it under that hat oh, no, man, I got I got a fully long hair.

Mo Sam: 47:12

I was sick, bro, I was sick. I was like I was like is it gonna be like nothing on top now?

Darren Lee: 47:17

no, no, no, I gotta fucking man. I got long hair now and everything right, but I'll tell you the full story because you're gonna enjoy this, yeah, yeah so let's go I uh, I tore my crew shit, I'm playing rugby, my acl and um. I got a surgery basically, and in the surgery I got a blood clot afterwards and I fucking ruined my knee like super bad. They told everyone to amputate my leg. It got really fucked up dvt yeah, below my knee.

Darren Lee: 47:43

So, yeah, doc, doctor missed it, uh, surgeon, uh, someone else missed it. My mom of all fucking people caught it as a nurse. And then I got an ultrasound leg was okay, whatever, but I got put on blood thinners, warfarin in particular oxyban a warfarin okay, warfarin. And many years later, I found out that warfarin loses your hair it no way, I didn't know this it starts binding fucking dht and you start to lose your hair.

Darren Lee: 48:14

So this was many years later but from when I was 16, when I had my leg fucked up to 20, I got such bad hair loss man, really, really bad, and I was like what the fuck is going on? So at like 22, when I finished uni, I was like getting ready to get that fucking hair transplant rang a big clinic in Ireland when I was living there and they were like yeah, you know, you can do it in a few years, whatever, but the thing is you have to go on finasteride afterwards, otherwise it's not going to work.

Darren Lee: 48:43

Right, it's not going to work yeah, yeah so I was like okay, so I have to go on finasteride there, I guess. So then I just said to myself, well, why don't I just go on finasteride now, and if I get a side effect from it then I'll just come off it? And then she was like, yeah, it seems, seems a good idea. So about three years ago, three, four years ago I went on fast trade. No side effects, uh at all. I just pissed a bit more for the first month. That's only that me. But man, yeah, hair re-grew a shit ton like really, really intensely yeah, hairline yeah hairline I was growing pretty much fully.

Darren Lee: 49:15

Same with the back of my head, like I have fucking long hair down to here. Now, man, it's all tied up. Um was on ketoconazole. I'm still on ketoconazole. Uh, I didn't go on monoxone. Uh, I just didn't need it. Uh, what else I've been on? I've been on a shit ton of biothin. I have derma roller, all that kind of shit and yeah, it's been crazy. It's obviously transformed. Like my confidence around it was super insecure as a kid around that, all that kind of shit. And now I did. I didn't need a surgery, basically, but I'm obviously not a pro but opposed to it, although I haven't spent two years growing my hair, so I'm kind of hesitant to cut it all off to to uh, to get a transplant, but embrace yeah, go on, go on bro.

Mo Sam: 49:52

I was just saying embrace, embrace the bald for a little bit, mate, it feels I, I feels good.

Darren Lee: 49:57

But I'm so. I'm so committed to growing the long hair. That's why I'm like I don't want to spend another fucking two years growing it but I just thought it's interesting right because, like I've been on finasteride for so long, I have no side effects. Test is perfectly fine, estradiol is fine, progesterone is fine. Get my bloods done every six months, three to six months, and no issues.

Mo Sam: 50:18

How much finasteride are you taking? About 1.2 milligram a day. Oh wow, so you're on a slightly high dose than normal, slightly upper.

Darren Lee: 50:27

Well, you can only get five milligrams in Asia for more spirit.

Mo Sam: 50:30

Okay, I see, yeah, because it's prostate aplasia yeah.

Darren Lee: 50:35

Yeah, and I have to break your fucking hands.

Mo Sam: 50:41

Where would I buy one of those? Oh yeah, you are in Bali. To be fair, probably don't sell pill cutters very commonly, and if you order it, you're probably going to end up with a gunshot wound somewhere in you.

Darren Lee: 50:50

Are you an entrepreneur who wants to build your influence and authority online? You may have tried some of the hacks and tricks, but none of it has worked. And it makes sense. 90% of podcasts don't make it to episode three. Of the 10% that are left, 90% of them don't make it to episode 20. That's where Vox comes in.

Darren Lee: 51:08

Vox creates, manages and grows your podcast for you, on your behalf. If you've not been getting leads, not been growing consistently, you haven't found your tribe and you don't know what to do, vox is the answer. Don't just take our word for it. In the past couple of years, we've managed over 35 podcasts. We've also been able to generate over 55 million views with 500 episodes produced, and not only that, generating over $1 million for our clients in products, services and sponsorships. So if you want to learn more about how you can build a great podcast and have it fully managed for you schedule about how you can build a great podcast and have it fully managed for you schedule a call with me at Voix and we will help you achieve your podcast goals.

Mo Sam: 51:45

Yeah, there we go. But yeah, man, that's fucking interesting because I actually saw something today on YouTube. I wrote a comment on it. It was on James Smith's video. I really like his stuff. He'd done a video on hair loss and it's a sick video. I like the dude but it's sick video, like I like. I like the dude.

Mo Sam: 51:59

But there's this, like I was reading the comments and there's so much scaremongering surrounding finasteride and it's like. So I've had a hair transplant. I don't know if you know or not, but I've had a hair transplant about I come up to six, seven months now. So it's looking, it's fucking looking pretty good, if I don't mind me saying um, yeah, bro, um, and I honestly think I would have not needed the hair transplant if I took finasteride or start taking it sooner. So I started taking finasteride about two years ago but by that time I already had all these dead regions in the temples, um, in the temple regions of my hair, like, if you're, if you listen to this, I make a lot of youtube videos on it so you can just search if you want to see it um, but it was like that area, those those follicles have been, it's rised and and I died Like there was no hope for them and I had it's probably around when I was 18, 19, my first year of university.

Mo Sam: 52:50

I started to really notice when I was super young that my hairline was, to put it frankly, fucking clapped, like it was not looking good for me. And there's videos on my YouTube that I've used like a few times in my hair loss videos and you're like, yeah, this guy is going to be completely bald by the time. He's like 23, 24 years old, but through microneedling, minoxidil like some other stuff, keep his cortisol alone, like being pretty. It's like anything, dude, like you can improve your appearance and change your reality so much. But all you've got to do is just be consistent with it and do it every little day, every single day, and just like actually put some effort into it.

Mo Sam: 53:23

Um, I managed to do a lot of, make a lot of progress on it, but still I was so scared of any finasteride associated side effects. I never took it and you need something for that dht to that, something that's going to stop that dht, which the root cause of the issue minoxidil doesn. You can get other things that are like rosemary oil and salpameto, which are less efficacious DHT inhibitors, but for the vast majority of people, you need something that's going to be pretty powerful at stopping that DHT from getting to the scalp and, yeah, there's just this huge fear-mongering online about it. And finasteride okay, side effects do happen, but, as we've we've just spoke about, as of the like I don't know, five, six, seven, eight people that I know who are all on finasteride, all in a similar situation to me um, young guys in my 20s, 30s. Not a single one has had any side effects, and it was actually mike, first time I was chatting to, that got me to take it. So I believe mike's natural, like, whether you believe it or not, like controversial yeah controversial.

Darren Lee: 54:23

It's actually all the internet talk about it bro, it's actually rob, it's actually rob lipset.

Mo Sam: 54:28

That made me believe mike was natty, because I always thought he wasn't natty and I was like what do you think, rob? And he was like mate, like uh, he's like hand on heart and they're like really good friends. I I believed it like I'll give him the benefit based on that and, um, like I think there's a lot of people on the stories that look a lot worse than mike, for example. So it's, he's like an absolute outlier. But I was like I was like, okay, if mike can get no side effects, look like he does, and I believe that he's natural. Because one of my real concerns as well was like my physique getting shit because I'm suppressing testosterone or something along those lines, and I was like, okay, I'm going to give it a go. So I started on a topical solution of finasteride. I was using like one mil a day um straight into my scalp because I was so scared of side effects. But he said to me is like, if you think you're going to get side effects, you will get side effects. So I was like I was going into the mindset of it's going to be completely fine and it was completely fine man, and I can talk about it all day to you bro. But the studies I think the side effects are reported in about 1% of people on finasteride, like even extremely mild ones, and then I think of about that 1% it's something like 5% of people in another study who reported side effects. They were determined from being effects from the placebo effect versus the actual effects from the drug itself. So it's just crazy how much your mind can actually play tricks on you and make you think you're going to get side effects. So I started on the topical um one, one mil a day on my scalp just to get full scalp coverage, and then since then I started, uh, about a year after my hair transplant, about a year. So I was on that for maybe two, three years in total. About a year ago I then started on an oral finasteride instead, so half a milligram a day, um, well, no, it's six months ago actually, half milligram a day. Just after my hair transplant I went to an oral form of it, so a pill, and then I increased that about three, four months ago to one milligram a day when I was like, okay, I'm not getting any side effects from this, it's nothing, nothing bad is happening. So I'm probably gonna be all right.

Mo Sam: 56:26

And I think the thing that people need to realize is like, okay, if you want to go bold, go bold, but if you want to save your hair and you want to keep your hair, you need something for that dht, that uh, to inhibit that five alpha, our five alpha reductase.

Mo Sam: 56:40

And, um, if you're a fit young guy who you probably are listening to this that takes good care of their health, that isn't overweight, doesn't drink loads, doesn't smoke loads, doesn't have chronically low testosterone, you're probably going to be completely fine. And it's like the side effects do exist. But the people that are at risk of those side effects are going to be people that are in that category maybe overweight, older men who are almost hormonally compromised anyway. Then that little 1% change in those endocrinological levels are going to push them over a boundary and maybe give them some really negative side effects that aren't desirable. So it's like but if you're like that, dude, you should put your fucking health first. If you're like that dude, you should put your fucking health first. If you're fat, smoking, not getting any sleep, with no testosterone, I think your hair is the last thing you should worry about.

Darren Lee: 57:25

It's lifestyle factors number one, right, number one. It's a first and a fix. So, like, if your test is like super low to begin with and you got it done and you're on it, that might put you over the edge, like I remember, have you got yours tested Because you're natural too right? Like, do you get yours?

Mo Sam: 57:40

tested. Yeah, yeah, I've got blood tests. Yeah, well, I want to be like a Mike Thurston where everyone's like this guy's fucking natural. But yeah, I've got my testosterone done pretty much yearly. I've got one done for about six months ago as well.

Darren Lee: 57:51

Interesting enough, I switched from topical to oral finasteride because I wanted to see what it would do to my actual dht levels well, see, this is the thing is like, uh, when you're testing your test, when you're testing your testosterone, there's so many variables going in. Which is your training, your sleep, everything? So it's like, yeah, if you were just looking at that in isolation, you have to control for all the other variables, and then you have to control for, like, even when you get it done the day, right if you drove to the clinic versus getting it at home. So there's always like that variance, basically. But the reason I'm saying this is because I moved over. So like, when I went on it, I was like party boy fucking in ibiza up for like four days straight, like four years ago, right, three years ago, yeah, and I remember my test man was very average, like 550 what do you remember?

Mo Sam: 58:37

550, okay well 550.

Darren Lee: 58:39

And then I got a coach I don't know if you know him, his name is darren mcnamara. He's training in that gym that you're training in, but he's moved to rotterdam now and I've been with darren for three years. We did a very heavy bulk, came down off it got my test on it was 690 and then I moved to and then I went off alcohol. I've been off alcohol for two years and now it's at 750. So I'm older, I'm, my test is higher and I'm on all these you know, so-called drugs for finasteride that are meant to destroy my testosterone. So it's obviously to do with the lifestyle factors. Right when I was a party boy going out 100% yeah my testosterone was obviously lower right and my muscle recovery was

Darren Lee: 59:19

lower. So I just think it's kind of interesting, right is the fact that, like you, can't look at one metric in isolation. That's why I kind of I don't know much about this, but I know, uh, that company, uh x health or health expert, called in the states. Okay, they do 68 biomarkers I. I imagine it's super expensive, right, but the reason for that is because they're meant to test, like all the small nuances, so that you know if it is something that's wrong with your liver, is it directly wrong the liver? Is the wrong wrong with something else? And what you end up taking?

Darren Lee: 59:49

And if they're physicians, I know generally only recommend like one they'll they'll prescribe one or two small different things to help either a vitamin or a mineral deficiency. They don't put you on a go to shit. It's actually a stripping out process because they say, oh, you have this small thing you need to focus on. I just think it's interesting, right, because obviously people don't have access to the money and they can't pay at all this kind of stuff. But when you go deeper into trying to optimize your health or just try to be a fucking better person, basically in general, um, you can start kind of thinking about these things on isolation and kind of adding them in one by one basically yeah, man, I.

Mo Sam: 1:00:25

I think that the biggest thing that you can do to optimize your testosterone is ignore all this shit online about all these like specific things. If someone tells you that there's like a specific one thing that you need to do, it's fucking snake oil. It's like all you need to do. It's like, oh, eat some almonds for selenium, that's a fucking great idea. It's gonna get your testosterone to like triple natural. It's like no, it's like I see this stuff all the time. But the. It's like the, the, the, be all or end.

Mo Sam: 1:00:50

All is literally get good sleep, like have good sleep hygiene. Um, have a good social circle, be doing good stuff, be improving, being feeling like you're in a good place in your life, train hard like eat well. That's going to do better than anything. Any kind of supplement you can take, like, if you don't have those things in place, it's not going to. And try not to drink a lot of alcohol as well. It just destroys our REM sleep, doesn't it?

Mo Sam: 1:01:16

So that's going to be the biggest thing to improve in that testosterone and get that numbers up, I think. And then the effect or the change of one specific aspect within testosterone from finasteride is going to be so minuscule minute it doesn't really matter, because all testosterone, all finasteride is doing at the end of the day is just blocking that DHT, but then we can kind of make up for it with other forms of testosterone, which is quite interesting. And also another interesting thing, dude, is with finasteride you actually get a little bit of an increase in free testosterone, I think, when you first are taking it, because you're preventing testosterone from binding to DHT, so you actually get a little bit of an elevation in testosterone to begin with. Anyway, I'm not sure if that's long-term or it goes back down to baseline, but it's an interesting one that is actually gives you a little bit more, so some people will experience a slightly better sex drive sometimes interesting man initially when taking it, that is, I'd say I.

Darren Lee: 1:02:10

This is why I love like the og fitness space. Like I don't know what would you be? Would you classify yourself in that og fitness space? But it's like I heard rob stop by this recently, which was like, you know, they think it's all about the red light therapy, the fucking cold plunges, yeah, this, whatever. But he's like at the end of the day it's just training, nutrition, sleep, and then everything else is like the one percent on top of it. But it says training, nutrition, sleep, that's it, that's all, that's that yeah, that's it bro.

Mo Sam: 1:02:38

Yeah, I don't know. I'm saying, definitely, getting into that og territory is such a weird thing for me to say, um, but yeah, I feel like there's, there's like this is something as a coach. There's a lot like this is something I really consider with my clients. There is what's practical, what's optimal and what's enjoyable, especially when it comes to training. And it's like if something is 100% optimal let's use example of a training program but a client fucking hates it, like they're going to get shit results from it, that it's not sustainable, they're not gonna be able to do it. So it's a bit of a balancing act between, okay, what's practical, what's enjoyable, but then what's also optimal for them and they're gonna enjoy enjoyable but then what's also optimal for them and they're going to enjoy.

Darren Lee: 1:03:26

I like that man, so talk to me about alcohol.

Mo Sam: 1:03:29

What's your thoughts on that? Alcohol, yeah, mate, it's a bit of a weird one. I think everyone goes through the phases where they've drunk a lot, they go out and party and I'm not anti-alcohol or anything like that. But when I was younger, at uni, I went out, for I went out quite a bit. I was drinking a fair bit at university. I was never like a classic, like university lad. That's probably a bit more of like a autistic social recluse. When I found the gym, um, but like when I was, I probably started drinking from from a very, from a very young age. I almost had like it was almost like 16, 17. I was going out getting drunk at parties, at underage drinking while I was doing it, um, and then obviously I did it a bit at uni as well, but not not loads. And I think the reason for that is just like I know how fucking terrible it is for you from like I love to go out, I love to enjoy myself, I love to socialize and like now, I'll have like a glass of wine and my girlfriend over dinner or something like that every now and then. But in terms of like what I get out of it, it's like, is it worth it. And from a, from a, okay, a.

Mo Sam: 1:04:27

Let's consider like a physique point of view, when you have alcohol in your blood. It is everyone knows it's a poison, it's a. It's a poison, it's like the the best thing we can do to destroy the way that we look and destroy our physique. So, because it is a poison, our body's going to prioritize the breakdown of that alcohol in our blood. So if we have any fatty acids in our blood, if we've eaten a big meal like anything at all protein, carbs and fats, like those fatty acids floating around and we've also got alcohol in our blood, we're going to prioritize the metabolism of that alcohol. So everything else that's not alcohol is just gonna get stored as fat. So if you go out and you eat a fucking kebab, like so alcohol also it reduces your inhibition. It makes you fuck undesirable people, makes you eat undesirable things, like it affects us mentally in that sense as well. And then you let's let's say you go out and you eat a big fucking kebab. It's not, you're just not getting the calories from the kebab. You're actually changing the way that your body's going to store those calories as well because of the alcohol that is present in the blood and then throw in as well mate. It's like so many things throw in as well sleep. So the importance of sleep on testosterone, on muscle growth I think it's REM sleep that alcohol completely destroys, like one of the most important stages of sleep. If you are drunk, you basically get no REM sleep whatsoever. So that's an equally crazy one. That's going to affect the way that we look as well in terms of our body composition, because sleep deprivation is directly impacted to that. And then thrown as well that the protein synthesis, so muscle building, is affected by alcohol. Our fat loss is affected by alcohol. Our fat loss is affected by alcohol. All these things is absolutely insane. Then also thrown the fact that when we're sleep deprived we have a higher cravings for sugary foods. We also have lower inhibition Like there's studies that show we actually have these cravings and it changes our composition. It's like all of these things if that's just a purely physique point of view are getting changed by alcohol.

Mo Sam: 1:06:22

Dude, and for me as well, it's like if I go out and have like a big night on the lash, I feel fucking awful the next day. I literally feel like I have clinical depression. I could go out to ibiza. Drop, let's say drop a disco biscuit and I'd feel great the next day and the next few days I'll be fine. No, come down, no terrible feeling, nothing.

Mo Sam: 1:06:45

I go out, I get blackout drunk. I feel retarded when I'm drunk, like I guess I guess I might lack this kind of like dopaminergic um response that some people get. Like I know louis has this like alcohol alcoholic gene where it just makes it feel amazing. I feel like shit, um, the next day it wipes out two or three days. I'm just like bro, like this is not worth it. And it's like, again, going back to the thing, like we're, we are slaves to society and what other people are doing, like I'm not saying I'm above this, I am a slave to social conditioning. It's like just because other people do something doesn't mean that you should do it as well. It's like the average person is fat, broke and miserable. So it's like I'm probably going to try and avoid doing all the things that these people do regularly in order not to be like that 100%, 100%.

Darren Lee: 1:07:32

It's so funny, right, because it's just a UK and Irish thing that we push to boundary solver.

Mo Sam: 1:07:38

So I'm not I do kind of love it as well. It's quite funny.

Darren Lee: 1:07:41

It's just a funny. It's a funny way to look at it because, like, let's say, people in in central Europe, right, they're not cool with diabetes. Well, maybe some, some guys that go to Ibiza love the session.

Mo Sam: 1:07:51

There's lots of people in Europe love music, to be fair, and obviously yeah it's like huge in Berlin, but binge drinking isn't a big such a big thing, is it yeah?

Darren Lee: 1:07:59

exactly, exactly. But so I'm not against alcohol. I'm against me drinking alcohol for that reason, because I just know, like me and like my traditional friend group, what we'd end up just doing as a result. Right, and it's like you're just pushing yourself way too far and it's like you're eroding any sort of progress you're making. Right, it's funny you mentioned about the actual impact on your training, because I think that people don't even realize that right, like as a health coach, you're able to actually mad, examine mad thing.

Darren Lee: 1:08:26

Yeah see, like what the actual reality is, but it's just, it's just for me. It's like it's it's taking two steps forward and 50 steps back with what I'm trying to build right, and it's almost like if I try to do that, I'm just deliberately self-sabotaging, and you'll find this quite interesting. I've ended up kind of mentoring to some degree. A lot of people with alcohol just very passively, like very, very just here or there, and a lot of guys very similar to us just end up self-sabotaging. They're in good jobs, making good money, or they're building businesses, and then they end up just kind of going off to not off the rails, that was a bad way to put it but just kind of flicking a switch, going out, getting super fucked up, uh, hating themselves, regretting themselves, and it must be something in like what?

Darren Lee: 1:09:14

Alcohol is a depressant, right, it is ideally a depressant. So you wake up and you feel like shit. But the way, the reason why I would feel like shit is because I'd have like gin and then like fucking 14 mentos and then like some few cocktails and then something, some other shit on top of it. So you're adding in all these different layers basically. So yeah, I don't know man I'm one thing I would say go ahead.

Darren Lee: 1:09:38

I was going to say I am kind of worried is probably a bit too fair, but almost like worried for people in that position who don't realize the severity of it. Because there's a lot of guys that are like talented and smart and they have a lot going for them, but they're caught in that loop of going out getting pissed, thinking that that's the thing to do, or to think that that's the thing they have to do, and then it's a waste of potential Because, like that was me for the first five years of my 20s right, I'd be in diabetes every year, be in the closing parties, be in every festival across Europe, did everything, went to Berlin, did all that shit and it was fucking great. But at the end of it I realized that I was basically in the exact same position I was in when I was 20.

Mo Sam: 1:10:29

Yeah, that's the thing, bro, it's. It's um, okay, have your fun, but earn it. Like. That's what I say is like, have you have your fun, enjoy yourself, like you can go to an. I'm going to go to Ibiza this year. I probably go a couple of times, but I'm going to earn those times that I go. I'm going to go for, like, okay, maybe two or three days. I'm going to go out twice, so maybe I'm going to go out what? Four times in the year in total, ibiza and I have earned that fun.

Mo Sam: 1:10:54

It's like I feel like I'm only doing that thing because I've put the work in to get that time off and like, aren't that hard work and got to that place? And it's like you do need time off, you do need to kick back and enjoy yourself. But it's like being, again, not delusional of yourself. It's a big one that I've been thinking about recently and very and they're very real and just like, okay, like moderation is key. Like what can I like? Am I overdoing it? Am I going to ibiza for a few days and, being relatively sensible, having like a big night out a couple times, or am I going there for a week, two weeks, drinking every fucking night, getting absolutely no work done and regressing in all aspects of my life man, that's actually what happened to me.

Darren Lee: 1:11:37

That was the last time I drank was I did seven days for that, exactly, so I flew from singapore really ballet ballet. To what? Was this, uh, two years ago, on the 26th of june, was the last time I drank. Okay, okay, cool, it was in, it was in ibiza, and then I came back and it was funny, wasn't it, man? I barely even drank for the fucking week, but I was out for seven days and we booked for seven days and I was like, oh, we're gonna take a bit of bit of time off.

Darren Lee: 1:12:03

No, no, I literally went out every single day because I had the availability, right, I was there. I remember I opened up my laptop once on the wednesday. The press published on a podcast and I just closed the back down and I left. Yeah, no, harm, nothing like nothing went wrong. Right, nothing went wrong. It's just the fact that I left being like and it was ironic because the people that I interview are like you know, they're all like entrepreneurs, founders that are like fucking whatever, and it's like I felt like a hypocrite because I was trying to like aspire to be that individual. And then I was there, just like fucking in dc10, and I was like, well, did I earn that? Right back to your point? Not necessarily, so the last two years for me have just been kind of huge with that and yeah, it's interesting yeah, it's.

Mo Sam: 1:12:49

I think. I think you've got to ask yourself as well a lot of people it's like are you going out just to get fucked up, like for the sake of going out and getting fucked up? Because when I used to go out that's what I would do and I would be there and I'd just be like. I get to a point like 1 to AM, like Chris Williamson said this, and it's like nothing good ever happens past 1 AM, and I agree with that so much. You get to a point you're there, it's like 1 to AM, you're surrounded by cuntsunts you don't even like in a place you don't even want to be in playing shit music and you're just getting fucked up for the sake of getting fucked up. So it's like that is not good man. But then I feel like for me it's kind of evolving into something different. Where I will go.

Mo Sam: 1:13:30

I'll go out like I really enjoy going out. I'll go out a few times a year to like very specific events that I like really look forward to, and I go there for the music, not to get fucked up, to be like the vibe, the music, and it's kind of like a bit of a hobby that I enjoy. It's okay, I'm earning that time off and having that time off. I'm not going crazy overboard, I'm still. I'm going to only get out a couple times having a really good night, but then the next day I wake up feel pretty good, maybe get some work done, uh, chill and it's. It's like just finding that balance between the two things yeah, man, we'll finish up on that note.

Darren Lee: 1:14:03

I actually said exactly that to to louis. I said, like the problem that he's having right now he's facing is the fact that he loves the music more than the session. So therefore he feels like that if he's actually not going to the sessions, he's actually losing out on the music or like the experience of music right, because that's what he's actually fundamentally interested in is more interested in the music. And like that was that's me right. Like that was me for a long time was that? I was like fucking, actually, I still want to see these ajs, I still want to see these people, but it's a second order of consequences if you're not going to do it. But yeah, man, I want to say a big thank you. It's nearly fucking midnight here.

Mo Sam: 1:14:44

Got to get my REM sleep. Oh bro, that REM sleep. You've been staring at a screen. You're getting no REM sleep tonight. Testosterone is going to be through the pan Bitch tits are going to grow from the master, I'd make you doomed.

Darren Lee: 1:14:55

I want to say a big thank you, man Best. I want to say a big thank you, man, best. Luck in your competition. No doubt you're going to smash it. Man, you're looking absolutely fucking mental and, yeah, I'd love to do the next one in person. Come out to Bali, bring the missus, do a big round table be a lot of fun.

Mo Sam: 1:15:09

Mate. Well, I'll get out to Asia again very soon at some point, so our paths will cross for sure, dude. Thanks for having me on, dude.