Affairs

Affairs, which soared during COVID,  are addictive and can cause harm all around.  In this episode psychologist guests Dr. Sharon Ryan Montgomery, Dr. Marcy Pasternak and Dr. Tamsen Thorpe share their expertise on the different types of affairs, how affairs impact children, the personality types of those who are more likely to have affairs, steps to take to heal from an affair and more.    In my practice I find that affairs can be painful and debilitating not only for the injured party but for individuals trying to get out of one.   Learn about how there are emotional affairs, virtual affairs, sexual-only affairs and fantasy affairs.  Learn about the intergenerational effects of a child being alienated (cut off) from a parent in hostile, high conflict divorces.    Our expert guests provide resources for how to heal after the effects of an affair.  

Dr. Marcy Pasternak, PhD (marcypasternak@gmail.com) is a clinical and forensic psychologist who practices in New Jersey.  She obtained her doctoral degree in Clinical Psychology at Duke University.  While her practice serves individuals of all ages in both the clinical and forensic arena, her special interests include marital and family therapy, divorce therapy, forensic evaluations concerning custody and parenting time, removal, refuse/resist dynamics, grandparent visitation, risk assessment, and personal injury.  She often serves as a parenting coordinator, parenting coach, and is also an accredited divorce mediator, conducting both divorce mediation and therapeutic mediation.  She conducts multi-day intensive family interventions through a program called “Building Family Resilience,” an outgrowth of her practice.  These interventions are for families in which a child resists contact with a parent.   Dr. Pasternak has served as a psychological expert in numerous counties in New Jersey.  She was a Clinical Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at New Jersey Medical School, UMDNJ, now voluntary faculty.  She is the past President of the New Jersey chapter of the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts and has given numerous workshops and presentations to the mental health and legal communities in New Jersey and nationally.   

Dr. Sharon Ryan Montgomery, PsyD (sharonrmpsy@gmail.com), is a licensed psychologist in New Jersey.  Dr. Montgomery completed her doctorate in psychology from Rutgers University in 1982.  Her areas of expertise are in Clinical and Forensic Psychology.  Dr. Montgomery has served as an expert in over 2000 custody disputes and has also conducted evaluations in criminal matters, personal injury, marital tort cases, and testifies in court on numerous occasions.  She also serves as an individual, couples, family and reconciliation therapist; as well as a parenting coordinator, mediator, divorce coach and supervisor of other psychologists.   Dr. Montgomery also provides intensive therapy workshops and weekend intensives for families in which a child is refusing contact with a parent through the Building Family Resilience program.   She is the Past President of the New Jersey Psychological Association and the New Jersey Chapter of the Association of Family and Conciliation Courts, Human Services Association and the Morris County Psychological Association.  

Dr. Tamsen Thorpe (drthorpe@directions-cls.com) counsels adults, couples and families in transition.  In therapy, she assists couples rekindle their relationship using a combination of techniques, the Gottman Method and Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy (EFT), addressing such challenges as affairs, parenting, communication, intimacy and conflict management.  In numerous research studies these science-based and structured approaches have been shown to be successful in decreasing conflict and relational distress, while increasing a stronger bond.   Fo

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SPEAKER_01 0:03

To love, learn, to laugh, to love, to be loved, to see beauty, to understand, to bring grace to the things that matter most. This is Psychology America with Dr. Alexandra. Welcome to my show. For every life stage, we have questions. Let's enhance our lives together as we explore the things that matter most. Today's episode is all about affairs. What they are, how we can define them, how it affects adults, who's at risk, how it impacts children, how we can protect children, and how it affects divorce. I have three expert guests with me who have written papers on the topic and presented and created workshops on this topic. I know these women very well because we have together served on a committee that helps to decide who the speakers will be and what the topics will be for the fall conferences and spring conferences of the New Jersey Psychological Association. So it's my pleasure to introduce Marcy Pasternak, Sharon Ryan Montgomery, and Tamson Thorpe. Marcy Pasternak is a clinical and forensic psychologist who practices in New Jersey, and her special interests include marital and family therapy, divorce therapy, especially forensic evaluations, custody evaluations, parenting time. She often serves as a parenting coordinator and parenting coach, and she's an accredited divorce mediator, doing both divorce mediation and therapeutic mediation. Dr. Sharon Ryan Montgomery is a licensed psychologist in New Jersey as well, and she has served as an expert in over 2,000 custody disputes. She serves as an individual couples and family and reconciliation therapist. She serves as a parenting coordinator, as a mediator, as a divorce coach, and she also participates and provides intensive therapy in these workshops for families where a child is refusing contact with a parent. And Tamson Thorpe, PhD, is a licensed psychologist in private practice in New Jersey. And she assists couples to rekindle their relationships using the Gottman method and also my very favorite method for couples, which is called EFT couples therapy. She addresses challenges like affairs, parenting, communication, and conflict, and she also does forensic evaluations in family law. Dr. Tamson Thorpe serves as a reunification and family integration therapist as well. This episode is dedicated to International Forgiveness.com, a place that shares free resources on how you can forgive someone who has hurt you, even if you don't reconcile, so that you can release your body and your mind of the pain caused by resentment. Please look at the show notes for more detailed information on our three experts today and how you can find them. So welcome to the show, ladies, and thank you for being here. Thank you for having us. Great to have you. Now, this is a heavy topic, and I have patients on both ends of affairs. Those that are having the affairs and those who suspect or know that their spouse is having an affair. And I would say that both ends are suffering. And the majority of the people in my practice who are the ones having the affair, they say to me, This isn't me. I don't want this. But they feel like they fell into it. So my first question is what are the current trends in who is having affairs?

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Well, this is Tamson Thorpe, and I'm gonna field that question. And maybe maybe I'll just sort of set the stage. Our hope today is that folks out there listening get some insights into a little bit of the background about affairs, what we know that is, to help them wrap their hands around this. Because you're absolutely right, Alexandra, those involved participating partners as well as sort of the injured or non-participating partner, many times they're going through a trauma, not always. Some people are are riding high on those hormones, those um chemicals that are changing their brain. But at any rate, our hope for today is that those people that have decided to go on and divorce and and cannot re forgive or rekindle, gain some insights about affairs as well as some motivation to maintain some grace or put their best self forward during the divorce for their own sake as well as for the children.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Well said. Yes. Thank you, Tamson, for that introduction.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

I would just say, you know, getting figures about divorce is fairly easy to obtain through court filings, but given the secrecy of affairs, you know, these figures are less reliable because it's it's self-report. So who's going to report that? Yeah, and one of the main studies done in 2012 relied on older data, though, and it was this huge database called the General Social Survey data, which is the American public. And they used 16,000 ever-married respondents. Um, and they found that 23% of men and 14% of women reported extramarital affairs. And they also found that infidelity substantially increases the risk of divorce, which was new new at that time. You know, we know that now, but that was not the accepted belief then.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Oh, the belief then was that infidelity did not increase divorce rates? That's right.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

The belief was that partners could overcome it and should sort of work on it with ease. Right. Before 2012. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 6:53

Okay. And you know, one this is Marcy. What one of the interesting things that what we also know now is what one of the changes is that more women are having affairs, particularly younger women. So that that's more of a recent finding as well, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, because the 2012 data was a lot more men. So what's the current, do we have the current numbers?

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yes, we have the current well, current. Um, another study using, you know, that huge database, uh, Wendy Wang published in 2018, found that in the age group of 18 to 29, um, women and men are about on par, although women are slightly higher. So at 11% and men 10%. But these are folks that are really just married. And I know Marcy and Sharon and myself, we definitely see this in our office. And I would even say it's higher than this, because again, she published it in 2018, but her data is a little bit older. And now, fast forward, and you know, Marcy's done some study in the area of COVID too, which impacted a lot of people's mindsets. But it's kind of surprising and a little sad that people so young getting into marriages, you know, and there's lots of reasons why I think people get in patterns or habits of sort of more anonymous, you know, internet kinds of sexual dalliances, and then they can't break that habit once they're married. But at any rate, after people get in their 30s, men are definitely outpacing women. And then as people get older, the gap widens. So men having affairs, you know, soar. And the interesting thing is that people continue to have affairs later in life. So we see this with the gray divorces, as they're called. And ru one other thing relating to, you know, your topic, our sponsor of forgiveness, because you had a wonderful guest on Robert Enright, uh, you know, world famous on forgiveness. Older partners are more likely to forgive.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 9:00

You know, so they are more likely to work it out.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Oh, very interesting.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

There's also a gender difference about who is willing to work it out. They have found like with uh with alcoholism or substance abuse problems, men are much more likely to give up on the relationship sooner and have less tolerance, particularly for their wife having an affair, whereas women are more likely to hang in there and try to uh work on it. We don't know why.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah, so if they have young children or a lot of children, there's been some research to show that those people are more likely to forgive, and that makes sense, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

It does.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

It's a practical thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

To make the effort to really try to keep it together.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

Right. And that research came out of Greece. A lot of the research all three of us use is international because we belong to an international association, and so we're kind of in touch with with what's going on in different countries. But but that was an interesting study on gender, age, and personality and the impacts.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Yeah, very interesting. Oh, you didn't mention about personality differences.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

Well, in terms of personality, well, I could just back up. There's a lot of factors that contribute to infidelity, and um, there's actually a free access on the internet to a whole book chapter, and it was published by the Singapore Management University, and it's called the Encyclopedia of Sexuality and Gender. That was published in 2021. So it's really new, and it really shows that you know the factors are personality, biology, so genes and hormones, and then relationship factors, as all of us know as we deal with couples, you know, attachment styles, how satisfied are they, how committed are they? And then there's like individual differences, so religiosity, you know, that is a protective factor. Again, no surprise for you know marriages to succeed.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

And cultural factors, that's that's also a big, you know, thing to look at.

SPEAKER_04 11:07

Well, and what's going on in the relationship? There, I mean the the uh relationship dynamics are key to why people uh have affairs, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

I actually had two questions that my patients gave me for this episode, and one of them is related. So I'm gonna ask it now. I was gonna save this one for the end. So this is a woman who said, I like it when I know that someone is attracted to me. And I know that about myself. Having an affair is so easy with social media. But having gone through it and finally getting out of it, my advice is this if you feel one ounce of attraction to someone who's messaging you, run. I wasn't strong enough to get out when I needed to get out. This means her advice, having the uncomfortable conversation you need to have, like saying, This isn't appropriate. My question is are affairs more likely to happen to people pleasers? So she she sees herself as a people pleaser.

SPEAKER_04 12:20

Well, you know, it's really um got a lot to do with technology. I mean, technology has absolutely taken the barriers down. It's affordable, it's private, you can sit in your bed and you know go online. People that would never dream, dream of having an affair, just stagger right into it because of the uh convenience and uh the accessibility. There's no question, if you look at the statistics, that technology has affected our lives in so so many ways. It has been so, so influential. If you have a neglected marriage that people have given up on, uh you know, a child-centered couple who are only um relating around the children and housekeeping issues, and someone starts flirting with you online, totally vulnerable. And it's very flattering. I mean, everybody's human in these ways, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_05 13:15

And it's really soared with uh during COVID. I mean, because everyone was stuck in the house and all these apps, you know, that that are there, also apps for married people. I mean, there was that really soared at that point.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

It soared during COVID, like emotional affairs, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

And because technology was our only way of connecting and related, people became extraordinarily addicted to it. And that has become a huge problem from you know, kids at three years of age to, you know, 80 years of age. People live on the internet. And it for many, it can be their only source of connection. And in COVID, that was true for so many more people.

SPEAKER_05 13:56

And you know what was also interesting, you know, what we found with COVID was that everybody was connecting, trying to connect with everyone that they had ever known to see if they were okay. And people were connecting with, you know, old boyfriends, old girlfriends, people they hadn't spoken to in a while, just you know, are you okay? And then the connection started. So COVID really um, you know, really increased a lot of uh what was going on. And um, you know, and it was also hard to just be in in the house with with you know your own family, with your own spouse. This was a diversion, um, it was a way uh, you know, as uh as Sharon said of connecting. So yeah, a lot of interesting information about that during COVID.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Right. And I think it it does boost self-esteem. It's it's a quick hit, and that's you know, hormone-driven and personality. Um and we do have some insights on that. Specifically, you know, the question, you know, to get back to this woman, we find that when people are not so agreeable, so the opposite of people pleaser and not conscientious, they're more likely to engage in infidelity. And interesting, you know, if you're an extrovert like me, that's associated, associated with more sexual promiscuity. And then if you have a personality disorder like narcissism, you know, you're more tolerant of risk, you're more self-centered, that predicts infidelity. So that's a you know, that is more clausal. And then, you know, lastly, if you're sort of a distrustful person, a manipulative person, if that's you know, part of your personality structure, you're gonna be looking for that to boost your status, your resources, maybe even take out revenge.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Interesting data, Tamson. Thank you. Thank you. Um, could we talk about? I don't know if this feels like backtracking, but some people may want to know what is the definition of an affair and are there different types of affairs?

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Well, yeah, there are definitely different types of affairs. I mean, obviously, uh and we always think of an affair as someone stepping outside of a committed relationship. I don't think it has to be a marriage per se, but certainly that there is some kind of a long-term commitment for it to be monogamous in some way, and that you've brought into a a third party and it's gotten too crowded. So that is, and it's uh fraught with all issues of betrayal and loss and dishonesty and integrity. And it just um you know serves to uh fracture uh that uh commitment or uh contract that one might have either on paper or in their own mind. Right. If it's a boyfriend cheating on you, I'm not sure that's really an affair per se, uh but you could get in the weeds and you know argue that out if you want to. And I think the pain in suffering over is pretty much the same, the emotional pain of it all. That's right. But yeah, we we definitely have you know uh types of um affairs. Yeah, uh, we know that people have just sexual affairs, where this is you know a guy who travels uh for business or a woman, and it's you know, everybody has too many drinks, and the next thing you know, they're um you know in bed with the secretary or whatever it may be, but there's not an emotional connection there. It's something of convenience, of opportunity, uh maybe lift your self-esteem for the moment. Those are probably the the more benign affairs, I would say, if there is such a thing. Emotional affairs are when people are really looking for gratification and the an emotional connection because they do not have one either in their deteriorated marriage, or they, for whatever reason, uh it's a long-standing personality problem. I mean, we know people who are just simply empty buckets, they always need those accolades to feel good about themselves. So that the emotional uh affair has much more power and probably the combination of the two, the great new sex and sexual attraction and chemistry plus the emotional is really what leads to people leaving marriages and going on and having new care. So those are the most probably uh uh lethal or um meaningful in terms of divorce rate is that combination. But we also have those virtual, you know, types of uh affairs now where it's just online. They're having you know cyber sex, they're you know, uh doing all kinds of things. They can hire people, you know, online to service them in that way. And then uh I always um throw in the fan what I call the fantasy affair because I had a patient who this really happened to this many years ago, and I was just astounded. I was a young psychologist in practice, and this woman had a crush on her boss, okay, and the boss was happily married. She ostensibly was in a a decent marriage, had two children, but she was enamored with this guy, and she found it absolutely impacted her ability to love and connect to her husband, and she ended up divorcing him.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

But there was no reciprocity from the boss. None. No, no, no, no, what's the no true story? And so because of the fantasy, she couldn't love her husband. Right, right. It would be m like me leaving my husband because I think that and cell washing's ador it's adorable. Can you define emotional affair a little more? Because I remember there were three things like there's an element of secretiveness, there's an element of sexuality, and you're spending more time with that person than with the person you should be with in communication.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

Yeah, um, I mean, I'm not sure that that's how we really delineate it, but it is the emotional piece of it, it's the connectedness, the feeling regarded with my soulmate. Yeah, it's on a very deep, meaningful level versus that it's just good sex.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Okay. And then just before you said some people are empty buckets, what were you saying about that?

SPEAKER_04 20:19

Yeah, I mean, I think there are uh certain kinds of you know, narcissistic personality disorders who uh do not have a consolidated sense of self-esteem, or it's like um putting sand in a you know in a sieve. It just goes out, nothing lasts. They they don't feel uh truly loved or good about themselves in some sustained way. And the only way that they can continue to feel okay about themselves is to have ongoing somebody be attracted to them, complimenting them, attention. Yes, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Yes. Oh, thank you, thank you. Okay, so I have a question. You have a couple, and the woman says, I don't love you anymore and I want a divorce. She doesn't mention that she's having an affair. He suspects it and hires a private investigator and discovers the affair. How does this discovery affect the divorce process? Does anything change?

SPEAKER_04 21:21

I mean, it becomes immediately hostile, it implodes. Well, you know, it's very interesting because people can be mutually miserable with each other. True. They're c they're threatening divorce morning, noon, and night. They're, you know, lining up to hire attorneys, etc. And they're both in agreement, this is what we're gonna do. The minute, the minute somebody finds about an affair, one becomes the victim, the other becomes the perpetrator. And that dynamic just it becomes pervasive. That the person feels more rejected, more betrayed than having just the benefit. Of a bad marriage.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

So it just it it trumps everything in terms of their attention. Their attention all goes to that.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

They obsess, totally obsessed. That is all they can focus on. I mean, and even to the detriment of their children, the divorcing process, trying to focus on finances, they want to know every detail. They cannot get off it. They want to go back in time, they want all the phone records, the text messages, they go through the computers.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

It's true. They become the investigators and yeah, obsessive about it.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Yeah. And I think what I would add is there's challenges to the divorce process. There's many kinds of contextual things that exacerbate it. And you were just saying the the gentleman hired a private investigator. And if the participating partner denies and denies and denies and does not sort of come clean in an honest fashion, and it takes a very long time, or these heroic efforts of a private investigator with pictures to prove it, that is really fuel on the fire. And I have a list of several of those, if you want me to mention those.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Sure, please do.

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Because Marcy, Sharon, and I have seen all of these things many times over, um, as well as I'm sure other people can think of it. But Sharon was talking about an emotional affair, and you know, an example I can give is when the participating partner shares very personal or private information about their marital partner with the affair partner. And you know, the the marital partner finds this out by the trail of text messages or the investigation phase, and that can be very harmful because that's really violating that in itself is a betrayal. Yes, that's a big betrayal. And so I was just gonna talk a little bit about other contextual factors that really throw fuel on the fire.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Sure. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

You know, we have seen affairs with extremely long durations, you know, to the point where some of these they lead a double life, you know, two households. And that is really a hard one to recover from. You know, I've seen somebody in an affair for 23 years, uh, Sharon, I think you said 25, Marcy, I'm not sure. Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Well, I it's very interesting because when you ask these people, you know, about the motivation and um, you know, what was that about? I mean, I mean, how did you even do that? I mean, yeah, really. I mean that I mean that's tax tax this guy had uh his girlfriend set up in a penthouse in New York. He he owned uh multiple uh grocery stores. And I asked him, like, what is this about? I mean, enlighten me. I'm curious. Yes. And he said, uh, well, you know, when you get to my stage and and status in life, you know, I've got the country club, I've got all the money I want. It sort of goes with the territory. It was an entitlement.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

It was an entitlement motivation. I mean, it shocked me, absolutely shocked me. That goes to the narcissism that Tamson was talking about.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Absolutely. And not only the long duration, but we see people that have multiple affairs, you know, one comes out and then it's a cascade of many other ones, and that's really hard to recover from because, you know, what's the guarantee? It won't continue. At that point, it's a pattern, it's a habit, you know, like Sharon was saying, it's an entitlement, you know, it's just part of their view, their self-view.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

So we're talking about how this affects the adults, both the injured party. We haven't talked about how the injured party is affected.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Well, you know, that's another thing I was gonna talk about, you know, STDs, you know, we advise all of these folks to go get uh tests, you know, that can affect both of the people.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Um, and some of the some of the things like HPV, it really only is expressed in the woman. The male is more of a carrier. Um, and some of those HPV strains can have uh can be cancer. So it's pretty serious stuff. That's serious. Yeah, and it could be a lot of money being spent.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Yeah, Campson, um, I I think the context is really a key factor too. Um, because uh it it's uh, you know, is the context of, you know, is it the neighbor that you're having the husband's have or wife's having an affair with, the best friend? I mean, is it the the nanny? I mean, what is the relationship of that person? Is it a younger person? Uh that tends to be a little bit more threatening.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Did someone get pregnant?

SPEAKER_04 26:47

Yeah, yeah. Or they involve the children have involved the children. Is it the children who come forward and say, Oh, by the way, just the daddy's friend Susie, her children. Uh so all of that, I mean, if you uh have multiple uh contextual factors like that that that uh you know mitigate against any kind of forgiveness or getting over it. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 27:08

It's multiple portrayals. Yeah, if it's uh a relative, if it's the you know, the next door neighbor, the best friend, um, you know, it's just it the impact is even, you know, double, triple.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

I notice when patients of mine, when they're having affairs and they have children, they also have a lot less patience with their own children. Yes. Because in addition to their busy lives, they're managing the emotions, let's say, of two men, their husband and the person they're having an affair with, they're managing the secret, they're taking time away from everything else to take care of the affair, and they end up being short-tempered in their own home, and then they're also upset that they're short-tempered because they know they're not treating their children the way they want to, and it seems to be a symptom of the situation. Yeah. So uh what does the research say about how affairs can affect the children?

SPEAKER_05 28:04

That's actually a really, you know, good segue into that because you know, it it could go either way. The the way you just describe, Alexandra, with being short-tempered, with more of neglect. A lot of times, you know, when someone's having an affair or there is an affair going on, and the person, you know, who is not having the affair is distraught, depressed, shocked, overwhelmed, um, you know, sometimes they can't function as a parent. So either way. So for the person having the affair, they uh can be so consumed with this this new relationship that they kind of let things slide with the children. Um more rules, you know, or anything like that. Um, they're they're more concerned about themselves at that point. Um, so the children are a bit neglected and can feel neglected for sure. Um, there's less attention paid to them, but that could also happen to the person who is not engaging in the affair because they can just be devastated and and it it have difficulty functioning, period, to the point of you know, real depression. So, of course, parenting gets affected with this as well. And you know, a lot of it all has to do with the age of the child and the developmental stage as well.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Oh, yeah, can you please speak about that? How does that affect it, the age?

SPEAKER_05 29:27

Well, I mean, in in general, children can feel a sense of guilt, depression, anxiety, um, anger, fear, you know, all of that. But younger children, you know, are very um egocentric and often feel like they've done something wrong. It's their fault. Maybe they um they need to do something to try to fix the situation. They really don't understand, they can feel abandoned, which is really what I was just talking about, because parenting has kind of maybe gone by the wayside. Um, they're really not getting the same kind of attention um that they usually um get because the parent is just not emotionally available. Um but adolescents, on the other hand, you know, because of their different cognitive ability at that point and their maybe greater understanding of of what might be happening, we'll blame, you know, uh there's a good guy, there's a bad guy, one parent can be viewed as a victim and the other one has done wrong, or they can become what we call parentified, where they become little adults. Sometimes because they are older, parents may feel like they can be confidants, which is the worst thing. Yeah, you know, and then sometimes if a parent is depressed and and not really functioning well, that can lead to this parentification as well and in a different way. They feel like they need to protect their parent, take care of them, try to cheer them up. Um, so they they become the parent to their parent.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

And that's a barrier to their own development instead of thinking about friends and grades and sports and kid things, they're thinking about that or being angry at one of the at one of the parents or trying to take care of the other parent, or maybe they don't even want to go out because they think the one parent will be sad without them.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

Exactly. I mean, and it could get even worse than that. It can end up in a parent-child contact problem. Um, if if uh one parent is being blamed, there's a bad guy, um, loyalty conflicts, you know, children becoming aligned with one parent, loyal to one parent, in the extreme, rejecting one parent, wanting to have nothing to do with them. I mean, it it could it could really get very, very bad. And especially with adolescents, it can affect their trust in their future romantic relationships, it can affect, you know, their their view of themselves and their own emerging sexuality. You know, they're just starting to think about dating, you know, at that point, at that developmental stage, and the thought of their parent doing that is like, oh, oh, that's horrible. So, you know, it really, really has an impact on children and on their relation, often on their relationship with the parent.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

How about adult children? How do they respond?

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Well, you know, adult children don't do well either. I mean, they they become very upset, you know, about all of this. I mean, it depends on where they are in their adulthood. You know, if they have families of their own, you know, it you know, that could be a protective factor because they're more focused on that. But, you know, it also could, you know, make them question their whole life and their own relationship. I mean, you never know. There's not that much research on on the adult children, but um, they become very, you know, distraught as well. I mean, it's it's not as if it's easy on them.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:59

Um, but they're you know, depending on where they are and how old they are, you know, it it it it can differ.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

The three of you have mentioned protective factors a few times. Can you talk about protective factors?

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Well, I think that one of the protective factors can be a program like this. Hopefully, people will uh you know listen because uh I think being educated about the impact, particularly to your children. One of the things that we classically see uh is that you've got these two people on in the opposite spheres. You know, one is rising from pain and can barely function and depressed, rejected, the other is dancing in the aisles, going to the gym, getting new clothing, madly in love. They're complete polar opposites. Okay, so the gay, happy person can't understand why the children or their spouse can't get over it. Why can't I introduce the kids to her? Why can't I she be part of uh you know our happy new family? And that premature ramming this down the children's throats can destroy your relationship with your children forever. So, really, you know, educating people uh about not putting their own needs first. I you know, I granted you're happy, you know, and this is all wonderful, but your children or your ex-spouse are not in the same place, and you now have to have some empathy uh to that and let them catch up. It's just sweet and simple.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Would you be able to give a timeline for people on that?

SPEAKER_04 34:35

My advice always is to say to the children, you need to let me know when you're ready. I'm not gonna force this. I understand completely. And when you are ready, I'm not gonna bring it up again, you let me know. And that is like magic. The minute they know it's in their ball cart, they have a different perspective on it.

SPEAKER_05 34:55

Yes. And the other thing is really, you know, not to pull the kids into this and not not to make them privy to any details or or anything like that, and you know, not to present yourself as as you know, a victim, um, because that could lead to parentification.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

So that's for the injured one. You're so you're saying both of them should not talk about it with the children.

SPEAKER_05 35:19

Not at all. Yeah, yeah. Not at all. It's ideally, children should not even be made aware of an affair. I mean, ideally, I mean if you know, oftentimes, you know, it's kind of a done deal. The children overhear, um, they overhear an angry argument, they um they might see um if the court's involved at that point, they may see, you know, divorce papers. Um, you know, it's it's really important to shield them because you're not doing them any favors, you're only really harming them to pull them into all of this. And oftentimes they feel they need to pick and choose, you know, who's the good guy, who's the bad guy, who do I want to spend time with, who am I going to reject? And that's the last thing you want your children to do. They they really need to be able to have a healthy relationship with those parents going forward, whether parents stay in the marriage or whether they divorce.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

I always say to both sides that this might be really hard, but you need to articulate to your children that they have the right to freely love me and freely love your dad or whatever, but give them permission to freely love both sides. And that includes the new wife or the new husband.

SPEAKER_03 36:34

Yeah, that is so well said. So well said, and I think it's important also that they know it's not their fault, you know, because children do tend to blame themselves, or as they become teens, they can be very angry and blame one parent, and it's not necessarily, I mean, Marcy, you you know you could say it probably better, it's not necessarily the participating or the injured party, right? It could be either exactly.

SPEAKER_05 37:01

It could be either. It it really could be. Yeah. Uh-huh. Children really need to to be kept out of this as much as possible, and so that they can develop the way that they are supposed to develop and not be um stunted in this way and pulled into the the high conflict. I mean, you know, when we have a parent-child contact problem, it only occurs when the there's high conflict between the parents, like a high conflict separation or divorce. It doesn't happen otherwise. So parents really need to be aware of that. That that's that's a real danger and very bad for for children of any age.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Can you talk about what the research says about children who cut off a parent? What are the psychological impacts of that?

SPEAKER_05 37:46

Well, you know, it could be devastating for a child. It affects, it often affects their future romantic relationships. Some of the research shows that it be can become intergenerational in terms of when they're adults and and they have a spouse and they have children, they can get into the same situation. They could end up in the same situation as their parents, being cut off from a child. And a lot of times, uh, you know, this is what they're used to. It this is what they've known. Um, you know, we as parents, we model uh family life, we model behavior for children. And this is what they grew up with, you know, it cutting off relationships. Well, you know, that's not such an odd thing to do then. This is what they're used to. So, you know, you can see that happening in their own adult relationships. And, you know, also that you know, there's interesting research um uh called uh the the boomerang theory, whereas you know, parents who are denigrating the other parent, it really comes back to haunt them later on when uh the children group grow up and become adults. And you know, sometimes the favorite parent becomes not so favored at that point um and it can even be rejected.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

I have totally seen that many times.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Yeah, I yeah, the intro the interesting um aspect of that research, it was on like 1,500 young adults. Uh, not only were they disconnected from the person who did the most of the bad mouthing, but they were actually distanced from both parents because there was so much conflict. So that was one of the first big research uh studies we had. There's another uh sh very small one that was done by Amy Baker, a developmental psychologist who interviewed 48 adults who had been severely alienated or estranged from their parents. And she found high, high percentages of depression, drugs, substance abuse problems. And as Marcy was saying, I believe 40% of them as adults were alienated from their own children, and that's really scary.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

That is astounding. Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah, intergenerational. And I just wanted to go back and and just uh give the research citing, the study on the boomerang. And I have a boomerang in my office actually hanging on one of my picture frames because it's such a um a powerful study. That was by Rowan and Emery in 2018.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

I know we've we've heard Emory speak, some of us. He's down at I think the University of Virginia. I would say one other thing, so we're talking about sort of denigration, and sometimes, you know, these things really escalate, and there has been some smaller studies, but you know, increasing, you know, when the anger really gets out of hand, um, you know, it could be by a teenager, it could be by, you know, either the participating or non-participating parent. But, you know, domestic violence, um, you know, we have to as professionals and and as caring sort of family members uh be aware that these things can turn very badly with police being called and DCPP getting involved with the children. And, you know, people are also at risk for suicide when affairs come out and divorce is, you know, started by one person, and substance abuse is also, you know, rampant. So, you know, we really advise self-care, getting into good therapy. You know, that means not, you know, somebody that's more sort of, I don't know if the word would be directive, but certainly not joining with a victimhood. Yes, he is a bad person or she is a bad person, but can really help this person process and move on. And it does take a lot of work and a long time, it can.

SPEAKER_05 41:38

Yeah, and and you know, Tamson, that latter point that you made is really important, especially if the children um are in individual therapy and there is a parent-child contact problem. If if the therapist really doesn't understand what that dynamic is about, it it makes it worse. It becomes more entrenched and more toxic. So that's something to really be aware of. Um, because we see that a lot when we're treat treating the parent-child contact problems. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

The mistake would be to allow the child to repeat narratives about the situation over and over and over again. Sometimes, especially with children that are considered alienated, they will have memories of things that they could not possibly have memories of, but it's planted by the injured parent.

SPEAKER_05 42:25

We hear that all the time. In fact, you know, it's it the term for it is borrowed scenarios, um, where you know, it uh all the children in the family will repeat the same story almost verbatim over and over again. Things that, you know, happened before they were born or they were infants that they would never even know about uh unless they heard about it, but it's very much a lie for them. Um and it's really toxic to the children. And um, you know, it's it's something you really kind of have to nip in the butt because the longer it goes on, the harder it is to reverse.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

Well, and Marcy, the scary thing about that is once these children incorporate it, it becomes theirs and they deny, you know, over and over again that it isn't, you know, it's true, it's true, it's true. They they won't give it up.

SPEAKER_05 43:11

Exactly. It becomes a fixed belief. Yeah. It's very hard to reverse and and very hard to treat. So the children are really being harmed and when that happens.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

I'd like to ask the um second question from a different patient and hear what each of you have to say about it. It's from a man who discovered that his wife is having an affair, and as of now he's making a decision to stay in the marriage. But uh his question is when does the healing start and what steps can he take that are in his control to heal from this?

SPEAKER_04 43:50

That's a great, great question. Um you know, I think you know, these people are so married and enmeshed in the past. So you know, the first thing is they're constantly looking backwards and trying to dig in the ashes, you know, of the why and the wherefore, and trying to get them to let that go is probably the most challenging thing, accompanied with all the blame that goes on.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

And what could he do to start to let go of the stuff from the past?

SPEAKER_04 44:24

I think keeping things in the present is what trust is built now. It's not something that you know magically comes from some uh above place. It's doing what you say you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

I think also your last podcast, I believe, was on meditation. And I really feel that if you have a practice of some kind of yoga meditation or taking a walk outside in nature can be very healing, developing your social group, you know, maybe getting some trauma-informed therapy, maybe EMDR. I mean, I think you have to, you know, really take um a holistic approach. And that could even be diet and exercise, you know, to heal yourself. You have to really work all those those angles. There's no magic bullet to letting go. It is a it is a lot of work.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Yeah, it's a lot of work. And and sometimes sometimes medication unfortunately becomes helpful uh necessary. Especially if somebody's depressed.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Do you have favorite books on helping people heal from affairs?

SPEAKER_03 45:31

I have a new one that's out that I like, but it is here for people that want to rekindle. It's uh by Kathy with a Kay Nickerson, and it's the courage to stay. And I have a few people working through that now. It's it's not available on audio, it's only a uh paperback, but it's a large font because you know these people are so stressed out they can't focus to read a lot of times. Um so, and I you know, I have them doing sort of homework, so that is geared for that. But there's several others, um, and and none of these books assume you know that you you can guarantee that it's gonna work out. Right. Marcy and Sharon probably have some good book suggestions on, you know, two houses, getting in a mindset of, you know, we are now the co-CEOs of raising happy, healthy children and take the emotion out, and this is a business we're running, it's all about the children.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

For those that separate and divorce, do you have book recommendations, uh, Marcy and Sharon?

SPEAKER_05 46:39

Bill Eddie is somebody who writes a lot of books that it can be helpful. Um, you know, especially uh focusing on parent-child contact problems. How do you spell Eddy? It's E D D Y. Okay. Um there's one don't alienate the children. Um, Overcoming Barriers also has books, there are tips for um for parents in terms of you know how to deal with the high conflict uh parent-child contact problems.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Oh yeah, please tell listeners how to find those programs.

SPEAKER_05 47:10

If you're asking about a family intensive treatment program, that is really specifically for parent-child contact problems. Those are intensive multi-day programs. Usually, although um we would like people to do this sooner than later, um, usually the people that go to those programs have really tried to do that on a more outpatient basis, you know, once a week, once every other week, kind of therapy, um, and and it just hasn't been successful. Um, and then there are these more intensive programs. Um we have one here in New Jersey, you know, building family resilience. So that would be a multi-day intensive kind of treatment program. But you know, when when it when it's there is not every situation has a parent-child contact problem. Um, so there are, you know, in terms of um therapy, it would be, you know, some someone, you know, who really understands um separation and divorce and works with children if you're thinking about the children, if it's the adults, also, you know, somebody who's working used to working with couples. Um, you know, that that would be something that I would recommend.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Thank you. Would any of you like to share how listeners can find you if they have questions or they want to work with you in your practices? Well, email may be the best way. Sure. Why don't you share your email addresses? Or actually I'll put it in the show notes. That's a good idea.

unknown 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

I think Sharon and I are both in Morristown and Marcy, you're in Wachong, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing with people all over the world about this very important topic, ladies. Thank you for having us. Truly grateful.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

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