Seeds, Sacrifice, and Service: A veteran's journey to healing through the soil | Jon Jackson of Comfort Farms

I am honored to invite you to my conversation with Jon Jackson. Jon is a former US Army ranger who served six deployments in Iraq and Afganistan. In 2014, he built and founded Comfort Farms – A 20-acre farm in rural Georgia, as a place to help veterans on their journey of reintegrating into society. 

Readjusting to civilian life was a challenge for Jon, who suffers from a traumatic brain injury and PTSD. He did not find hope or help in the traditional systems serving veterans. Each year in the US, thousands of veterans die by suicide. In starting Comfort Farms, Jon aims to bring this number down, and provide a space for vets to work and heal together.

This is a story about service, sacrifice, and the healing powers of nature.

Read more about Jon on urbanexodus.com/blog

Transcript

Jon Jackson: 0:00

but it's really interesting that you know, when you put that same guy around pigs or sheep or goat or you know, raising chickens or something like that that wall that human interaction creates between us is all of a sudden knock down when you're dealing with animals in that same aspect. And so can a warfighter, build the memory for compassion for intimacy, forge trust, working with animals in that space, especially when those animals are giving birth and delivering and they're right there part of it.

Alissa Hessler: 0:36

Do you ever dreamed of making a radical shift? What does it take to build a more intentional life? What is gained from reconnecting with yourself with community and with the natural world? I'm Alissa Hessler. I've spent the last decade meeting with people all over the world who have made remarkable transitions in their lives. How do they do it? What did they sacrifice? What have they learned? Stepping away from convention isn't easy. But we all have the power to reclaim the things that we've lost, to slow down to change course, to create the life we want for ourselves and for future generations. The urban Exodus podcast shares, practical advice and inspirational words to embolden and guide you on your own journey. These are the stories of those brave enough to venture down the road less traveled. This is the urban Exodus. Urban Exodus is community supported programming, please consider sponsoring an episode or making a contribution so we can keep these conversations going. The easiest way to contribute is to click the support button on the top of urban exodus.com. You can also become a member of the urban Exodus community to peruse our archives of hundreds of photos, stories and interviews of people who love city life, or subscribe to Apple podcasts premium to have access to bonus episodes, our rapid fire interviews with guests and our new mini podcast ditch the city where I answer listeners questions and offer practical advice on a whole myriad of topics. If you have a question for an upcoming episode that you'd like us to consider, please send us a DM on Instagram, or through our contact us page. Thank you for helping me continue to do this work. I couldn't do it without all of you. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban exodus to your friends. I am honored to invite you to my conversation with John Jackson. John is a former US Army Ranger who served six deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. And in 2014, he built and founded comfort Farms, a 20 acre farm in rural Georgia as a place to help veterans on their journey of reintegrating into society after serving, readjusting to civilian life was a challenge for John, he did not find hope or help in the traditional system serving veterans. Each year in the United States. 1000s of veterans die by suicide. And in starting comfort farms. He aims to bring that number down and provide a space for vets to work and heal together. agro therapy describes the practice of healing through the soil. And it is what John hopes to pass on to every vet who stays at the farm. John's other passion is seeds. On comfort farms. He is growing varieties of heirloom vegetables that are either rare or near extinction. He is working on building out an heirloom seed company and is currently writing a book on the experiences he went through while chasing his African lineage through seeds. This is a story about service, sacrifice, and the healing powers of nature. So I am absolutely honored and thrilled to have on the podcast today, John Jackson, John Jackson served six tours of duty as an Army Ranger. And when he returned back to the States, he started comfort farms. And I'm gonna let John talk about what comfort farms does. But as the daughter of a veteran and the sister of a veteran, I just I so appreciate you and what you've dedicated your life too. And I'm really excited to get the opportunity to speak with you and to share your story. So thank you so much for joining us.

Unknown: 4:56

Thank you appreciate that.

Alissa Hessler: 4:57

First off, I wonder if you could just share a little bit of your personal backstory, where you grew up, and the journey really to where you are now.

Unknown: 5:07

I grew up in Jersey City, New Jersey, and I was a city boy, but both my dad who was from LaGrange, Georgia, and my mom, who was from Liberia, Africa, they met and I was born in that place, I grew up with a lot of, you know, Southern culture and African culture, like really kind of mixing in the space with very traditional family. And, you know, in different views on the world is lot of, you know, a lot of Mali counterparts. I was fascinated with, with food as a start, you know, getting older. But one of the things that took place, 911 happened, and part of my childhood, and my doubt, because I was born, you know, I was literally born looking at the Liberty State Park and the Twin Towers and right from my bedroom that was on the second floor. So when that took that, when that went down, a large part of my childhood went down. And I was going through a transition at the time with my ex wife, and the military just seemed like the perfect fit to serve my country and do something that I thought that I should be involved with.

Alissa Hessler: 6:16

So you served six tours of duty, both in Iraq and Afghanistan as an Army Ranger. And I wondered if you could talk about your time in the army and your experiences in combat.

Unknown: 6:27

Yeah, so my first my first deployments were with the third IV 1/15 infantry unit that I was with. And that was, that was all I rack. And after my rack tore my to our rack tours, which were extremely lengthy, I decided to go Ranger and I needed to, I just, I felt like I was just going to be in the thick of it for most of my all my military career. So why not go with the best, right, and so I went, and I became a ranger, and did four more combat tours with them. Combat for me was just, I mean, both frightening and exhilarating, at the same time. I mean, it's just, you know, you trade for the fight as much as you can really nothing prepares you for warp. And once you're in it, it's just one of those things, you you thrive when you don't, you know, in that setting, and I really haven't become a whole different type of person live in an environment, where I look forward to being in combat, and I look forward to, you know, going over to going overseas and deploying, because honestly, for me, it was, you know, living in the black and white over there was a lot better than living in the gray here, right, it's way too many shades of gray. Over in the military, you know, when you're when you're in combat in combat zone in Iraq and Afghanistan, obviously, it's really just kind of black and white, you know, just people that hates you and stupid that love to write. And that's it. And so, you know, I just kind of thrive in that environment. It was, you know, it wasn't predictable. But nonetheless, it was something that my heart was set on. And I was set on being a really good Ranger. And I really did great job doing it that doing that job.

Alissa Hessler: 8:12

There's this, you talked about it a little bit living in the gray back home, there's this duality of war, that I think that it's hard to explain unless you've experienced it, but it's something that my dad has talked about when he was in Vietnam, like, there's so much kind of fun parts of war, you know, in addition to the horror, and so I wondered if you could talk about what that transition was, like, coming back to your home and returning to that gray, what it was like to return to civilian life and the struggles that you faced?

Unknown: 8:46

And but first thing that comes to mind is that you know, as a, as a combat vet, you know, you have to change our minds and our attitudes in a place of horror in order to survive. And how do you do that is you do your senses, right? You don't what it means to become human who we are right? Like, you know, the care and compassion and things like that you killed over, because you have a job to do. It builds callousness around us where, you know, we we choke at things that are not acceptable in our society to joke about that's how we cope, right? And we laugh at things that are probably gruesome and and totally horrific, but those are things how we cope. And over here in America, many people are so quick to say, hey, let's start a war, you know, center send our guys over the war and women over the war, but they're not willing to accept the consequences of those actions of, of men and women who go to war and have asked to adapt to be a warfighter. They want you to go and do your job, but they don't really know what that entails and what that entails is losing a part of your life. that you will never get back for the society and the biggest transitions and the issues that we are the biggest issues that we have with transition that's is transitioning from that warfighter to civilian again, and there's a huge disconnect, there's a bridge that you can look at, but you really can't walk across because it's not meant for you, the ideals of people trying to create this space for veterans from people who've never been in combat or who've never served is so far off from reality, it aids and enables our vets who are, you know, who are homeless who are using drugs and alcohol to, to, to heal their pains and things like that. And so that's why we have so many problems within our, with our military people, because that transition from from war to civilian lives, that those those bridges aren't meant for facts. And that's one of the things that we're trying to do is build that transition in a more holistic way. You know, we're events can find it acceptable and find it easy to kind of let their hair down. Be okay, with being okay, if that makes sense.

Alissa Hessler: 11:13

Absolutely. I mean, you talked about doling your senses and building these calluses. And that's really what's required of you to go out and, you know, basically see people as enemies and have that ability to take human life for the sake of kind of a greater good. I wondered, you know, what your transition was like, when you got home? Why did your family decide to move out to the farm? And, you know, you've told your senses, how did moving to the farm, kind of reinvigorate those senses.

Unknown: 11:47

So, for me, I had no plan in place to VA was not a place of that I could find confidence in due to the turnover of therapists that were involved, you meet one great therapist, you really, really like and you're ready to start this process of opening up Pandora's box. And then you come back, and there's a new therapist that wants to start over at the same place. And then you come back, and there's a new therapist, and then a new therapist, and then a new therapist, how can you start your process of of letting go of your past and moving forward into your future? If you're always telling the same old stories to new people that are trying to evaluate you and me just seemed like a very, very, you know, destructive system? Because from vets like myself, why do you deserve my story? You know, why should I sit here and talk to you? How invested? Are you with me? I know that my team that I went to war with is invested with me, why should I be why should I sit here and talk to you and be invested, you know, telling you something that you really don't care about at the end of the day, or I'm not even going to conclude this process with you at the end of the day, because it's going to be with somebody else. And so for me, I told my, you know, my VA and the people that cared about me, you know, in order for me to stay with my family, because I was ready to leave, I was, you know, I had a suicide attempt at one point that almost took my life. And I crawled away from that. And I felt, I felt that in order to, to do something, I needed to go ahead and create this space. That will keep me super, super busy and keep me around, not necessarily emotionally, you know, from my family, but just around because I was just ready to walk away from everything. And and I'll be honest, you had not done that out. I would never even be here talking about

Alissa Hessler: 13:45

what was the idea behind moving to the farm? And how did you notice yourself changing from a mental, physical and spiritual perspective when you arrived there?

Unknown: 13:56

I'm a planner, I sat down and for 18 months while I was in Warrior Transition, unit access, getting out as disabled back for moon sustaining war and whatnot. I decided that I was going to do this thing, right. I didn't know what the thing actually was, I was going to do the same. So I did play it. And I didn't know what all that even meant. I just went sat down and I charted this plan, like a blueprint for what a sustainable program for veterans were like. And I developed that based on my activities of serving for some nonprofit organizations while I was still active duty to help veterans transition because I was event that was transitioning, and I wanted to know about the programs that was there and there was really nothing out there. There was the word Wounded Warrior program that was out there. But even though as an alumni, it was not for me, it wasn't something that I felt that was just, you know, like to get my life back on, you know, and at the time it was just Hey, man. You know, it just didn't fit, fit me. And so when I decided to help create an organization into to solve some problems, I wanted to go from the roots down versus the roots up. And I started thinking about my experience in agriculture and how much I love, you know, just being an urban farmer. And maybe I can use that as my kind of like my segue into like helping, you know, veterans not knowing that it would really help. But the first person that I really wanted to help and focus on was myself. And so now I get into this space, where I seek these things into existence. And I'm talking all over, you know, country and the state. And someone heard me talk and they had a programs very similar up here in Milledgeville, Georgia, where they were helping homeless people and drugs and alcoholics to kind of get their life back together. And they had this, they asked me if I was interested in doing my program there and help supporting them by running a thrift shop to help support their program, and they would get the use of this land that was not a farm. And I was like, no experience farming and no experience doing anything. And I'm like, Oh, hell yeah, let's do. It wasn't exactly Hell yeah, let's go do it when it was more or less, like, you know, what, this is gonna really challenged me every single day to do something. And I did it with the help of my board, you know, kind of talk about the benefits of it. And I just settled on and I told my wife, I said, Hey, you know, what, why don't we go and do this thing. And here's the plan, this is what I'm gonna do. And she's like, you know, girl from Indiana. She's like, you know, like, and I'm like, Yeah, you know, and it was, I just felt like, I just felt like, we were going into the unknown, to a place that we've never been. And the only thing I had to rely on was my life, impact, impeccable work ethic, and nobility to like, you know, people that I serve, and making sure that the mission is at the top of everything. And those are kind of like the three fundamentals that I had to kind of make sure that this is what I'm going to do not knowing anything. And so when I got to the place with this plan, remember, I was an urban farmer, just formerly in the city and and so now I'm like, what, 20 acres, it felt like someone gave me that small country, you know? Really? Yeah, so that's where it was, there was no infrastructure, there was nothing It was just stand alone when there's just grass. You know, it's a lot of these rinky dinky trailers all over the place, and, you know, a bunch of garbage, you know, transient people tend to bring with them and leave. And it was like, Okay, I'm gonna make the sense of farm, but I don't know what

Alissa Hessler: 18:10

I mean, building a farm from scratch is no easy feat. And then running a nonprofit is no easy feat. You're saying what the early days kind of looked like, but over the last couple of years, how is your mission and offerings evolved? And how have you navigated through these periods of growth and evolution?

Unknown: 18:29

Oh, man, like, you know, I start working on this, I started building this place into a form right. And the first thing I had to go to was like, you know, I'm starting this okay, you know, I lost myself war. And as John Jackson range of John Jackson Well, actually, I start off as Johnny Jackson you know that all my friends knew me and then when I went to military became John Jackson and those two different individuals. So So Johnny Jackson, my mom and Alma branch High School, please like that's who they know me just jovial this John Jackson more fire, right, like totally left the walked after, you know, actually the yard, okay, that's who this guy is. And coming to this farm, I'm trying to find this third evolution about myself I lost myself I'm never going to be that young guy that everybody knew back when I was young kid. War has changed me a lot. It's also destroyed a part of me but it's also build another part of me So who is this big guy? Right? Who that's literally this. You know, when I tried to help vets understand this, you know, like you're, you're going into this this place. And so I kind of liken it to like the caterpillar, cocoon and the butterfly right? So it's like, you know, you know, and a warrior. You know, you're crunched lunch, destroy And the effects of that will really put you in mush days, right. And so that's the country's, how you emerge out of that is simply, that's the process that, you know, I felt needs the most work. And so I wanted to center the farm as not necessarily the cocoon, but the hand that reaches into the cocoon to help vets have this much better quality of life. And that's kind of what I focused on for myself, because one of the things that I did with that was I focus more on the earth, teaching me lessons that I didn't necessarily learn from myself or from my parents or from anybody, right, and just shut up and listen, because I found out that the farm speaks loudly if you're willing to listen, and listening to beings and things that aren't necessarily talking your language. But teaching you a lesson has been the most fulfilling part of my life. When I'm depressed when I have anxiety. I run to the farm, I get work, I get busy. People can't believe that as the owner and the founder, you will probably find me in a pigpen scooping a crap out. As in I had one producer talking to me like do you do all that and it's like, course man like this is, this is what it's about. But I do these things, because I enjoy and it's not work for me because I'm learning something. Every single day in this the font has taught me so much out of the fiddling time, had been able to help other people learn things about themselves this process.

Alissa Hessler: 21:41

Calling all small business owners, are you looking to expand your customer base beyond the reach of your local community, speak to our loyal audience of over 38,000 listeners by sponsoring an episode of the urban Exodus podcast. For more information, visit urban exodus.com/podcast. I know that the name comfort Farms is a tribute and I wondered if you could share the story behind the name.

Unknown: 22:11

Lone Ranger buddy Cali comfort he got killed on May 2010. and Afghanistan. He's really good dude. And really likable guy and an exceptional leader. You know, he went on our first mission that we had. And, you know, as soon as him up, you know, the night prior, the way I sent him out on the first mission is not to where I received them back. Right. I've lost many, many, many, you know, Rangers along the way, and also, you know, soldiers that I had the honor to serve with. And so call call comfort represents all of them. When I was sitting down with my strategic goals on you know, how we're going to help veterans and things that I can do and really be a part of, you know, it still went through all of my friends names and everything that went through and comfort farms kind of just popped up like wow, comfort farms there after brand new Ranger buddy Cali comfort. And the dichotomy of all this is that, it there's nothing comfortable about comfort farms, which is beautiful, because Calvin joined the Ranger Regiment because he wanted a comfortable life. And veterans understand that we only grow in our discomfort, not in our comfort. You know, and so you know, when when you're out there and you're getting attacked by the enemy, you don't run away, you gotta fall through, you got to attack the things that are attacking you because you got to put it down. And so those are the same type of lessons that we need in our life. You know, there's things that are causing us anxiety things is causing us to become depressed because we haven't handled or we don't have the tools to know how to handle them. So instead of avoiding them and go towards drinking, which will end up losing, you know, you're losing your relationships or end up, you know, being homeless or things like that, let's run towards the things that are giving us the most trouble like we did in the military. And so that's kind of where the idea of comfort forms came from. And I couldn't think of a better person that I can look up to every single day, you know, after Abdon cow a comfort was one of the amazing leaders in my life and portraying that spirit on the farm is something that that that's what I live for.

Alissa Hessler: 24:24

It's such a beautiful way to honor him and just probably to really, you know, stay true every day to what your mission is and what you're doing there. I wondered if you could explain agro cognitive behavioral therapy and the impact that it's had on veterans who've been a part of this therapy it comfort farms.

Unknown: 24:41

agro cognitive behavioral therapy is a term that I coined. I'm not a you know, I'm not a PhD doctor or anything else like that. But as I as I tried going through in this space, I have a background and in science and just work from pre plan GRANT laboratories, you know, doing all types of weird stuff for federal and private agencies, you know, within that space, but I'm also a Falconer, right since this cool thing where I travel wild bird and, you know, trying to the hunt with me, right. And so I took those concepts of behavior and not not just animal behavior specifically, but more like creditor beat predators who only live to do one thing, and that's like, eat, kill and eat, right, that's all they want to do. And, you know, once I started learning the process of, you know, how to become a better Falconer. I started really, really thinking about this process for veterans, and what could potentially lead to therapists understanding combat Vets more who may themselves have never experienced combat, and, you know, one of our what our motivations, right, and so our motivations to, to act for combat vet is to be able to use all of our senses, to be able to use the things that kept us alive in the first place that could also benefit our community in our societies. Instead of looking at things as a, as, hey, this guy has PTS, PTSD, or PTSD, as in super negative thing, understanding that there's certain types of different types of things that happened in war, that helped train veterans who are diagnosed with PTS or PTSD, to be advantageous to, let's say, a business. Because if you're looking for someone who is, you know, hyper vigilant for quality assurance, quality control, and making sure that you know, things dress, right dress, and very efficient, someone with, you know, who has been in combat is really, really going to hone in on those things and take those things seriously, versus someone who hasn't looked at life that way. And, you know, especially when it comes to towards the safety of others. And so how can you use utilize the skills that combat veterans have in the real world, and take people who are considered disabled and make them enable, right, and so the farm was a perfect way for me to do this. Because with, with agro cognitive behavioral therapy, my hope was to kind of initiate a covert type of curriculum for veterans to kind of rebuild themselves back. So, for instance, what that would mean is, hey, you might have a guy who's, you know, he's not feeling intimate with his family or friends. And he just like kind of reclusive and doesn't want to doesn't want to be hugged, doesn't want to be kiss, right. And so obviously, the, the wife is going to feel a certain type of way, you know, the kids may feel a certain type of way, you know, as people around him, they feel a certain way. But it's really interesting that, you know, when you put that same guy around, around paying for our sheep, or goat, or, you know, raising chickens or something like that, that wall, that human interaction, that 20 foot wall that human interaction creates between us, is all of a sudden knock down when you're dealing with animals in that same aspect. And so and a warfighter, build the memory, for compassion for intimacy, forge trust, working with animals in that space, especially when those animals are giving birth and delivering and they're right, they're part of it. And that builds the bridge for those things that make us human. And that we use animals have to go back and get slaughtered. And it's so interesting when I have that she has worked in this space, where they've had to slaughter animals for food, that they they end up crying. They haven't cried a war for so long. But yet now they're feeling this very compassionate emotion about this one animal that they know has to go to slaughter. And for me, that's kind of like brown groundbreaking, right? It's to feel human again. And so like I said, this isn't a this isn't a thing that's like being practiced in our medical, you know, arena. But I think if there are therapists that are willing to step out of their comfort zones and explore some non traditional and unorthodox ways of helping veterans, I really think connections can be made on that.

Alissa Hessler: 29:35

So beautiful. I think that they're reconnecting with animals is a way of rebuilding those synapses, right? Like the calluses that have been formed. And it's hard to do it with human beings because there isn't that shared experience, right?

Unknown: 29:52

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And animals are not going to care about your bad day. They're going to be great. For for you to see him every single day, right, they need to be fed, when storms hit, you gotta go out there and build the shelters for him, right? We learned things. And there's, there's a lot of things that I talked about with vaccines, like, you know, we can't build our shelters in the rain, because it's dangerous, we have to build them on the good days and taking advantage of those good days. Well, that's just like us as individuals, the time we build our shelters is when we're, when we're having fun. And when we're when we're good. And when we're paying attention to, you know, our lives as as like meaningful, those are the time to build our shelter those the time we build our networks, right, because when the rain comes, it's going to come, you know, you might just want to kind of, you know, be alone, and you might just want to be able to take time to reflect. But if you haven't built anything around that when the rain comes, it pours, and you not feel every single bit of it. And so I try to help vets understand that, you know, just to farm life, like these are the things you think you're coming in for farming. But what conquer Farms is teaching us really, you know, a lot of other skills to be human. Again, I don't have an actual number. But we've helped a lot, a lot, a lot of people. But I will tell you the most important aspect of whatever it is, are the number of veterans who are literally moments away of putting a gun in their mouth or doing something that will take their lives. Those are folks that I stay up with all night that I've really tried to make myself available for I don't care what time that's why I exist so that no one would ever feel alone going through that like I did. That's that that that happens often. And we try to help these vets get the resources that they need in the trauma beds to be available for anyone that wants to help themselves. And I'm so proud to say that every vet that has been able to call me that I've been able to spend time with I've inspired them, and they've in turn, done amazing things that often inspire me. So

Alissa Hessler: 32:02

I mean, let's talk about that. Because absolutely staggering number of veterans die each year by suicide. They've put those numbers more than in combat, and in your opinion, how are our current systems really failing? And how can we work to find these kinds of alternate solutions to help heal and rehabilitate soldiers when they return? I realized that what you're doing there is one piece, but are there any other things that you know, if you could kind of like wave a magic wand and fix some of these systems? What would you do?

Unknown: 32:34

The military has taken great steps right now into making this transition process a little bit easier. There's this thing where six months out, if you have six months out to turn the week, the military has allowed me to leave and go for like 15 weeks to kind of study and do anything that you want to do, and you're paying for it. Right? So whereas when I was in the military, it was like, man, you're, you're, you know, you're you're you're running with the snowball catching up to you all the way down, you know, until you get out of the military, right. So you don't have time to transition. Coming back out to this life and trying to adapt is tough, especially if all you know is combat, because you come into this life. And here with a understanding of, you know, things need to be done, and mistakes to people. And so this go back to the gray, right, there's many different shades of gray, and now you're forced to be around people who don't really care as much to you know, what not caring leads to not caring leads to the whole team dying, right? Or something, somebody's gonna get hurt. Because of your attitude. You might, you know, you might have members that want to show up late for work, and you know, that, hey, it's always 15 minutes prior to the time that you're supposed to be there, that happens over and over and over again. And it's super, super stressful for vets living in that environment. And so it's kind of like, you know, vets resort to self medication, when they get out, they resort to all types of things. And, you know, it's kind of like, now that the military sees that, you know, maybe we need to take this hands off approach and let our military men and women, you know, kind of take their lives in their own hand at this junction, I think is the greatest thing that that has happened because even with our program right now, we're getting military folks who want to come to come for farms, and we didn't have the ability to take them because they needed housing. But we just had Georgia manufacturing Housing Association donate to five bedroom homes at the farm for us in we furnished we furnish one of them are working on the other, but we will be able to take at least eight you know military personnel every 15 to 17 weeks for the steel bridge. program in, we're going to really focus on everything that we've been doing that comfort farms, I just hope to see a lot more programs kind of focus on that in giving our vets a way to express themselves in this space.

Alissa Hessler: 35:14

I saw that you got those homes, and that's going to be such an incredible way to bring people there. Maybe there are other veterans who are listening. And they love what you're saying. And they maybe want to create something similar where they live, do you have any advice on ways for them to kind of get started or, or figure out a way to build kind of a community run veteran farm, that also helps kind of be a bridge to people coming back from combat?

Unknown: 35:41

Yeah, so that's the biggest thing, there's a lot of moving pieces, right? The first thing that you have to do, which we're setting up this program, I would love for any bet, who is who is wanting to be in that space, literally come to comfort farms for those weeks, and really kind of get enveloped in kind of what we do. Our future programs are going to be geared toward helping leaders be in that space, to really the biggest challenges that we have, in order to do that is to really figure out what type of leader we are in the first place. You know, what you did in the military and how you acted in the military and behave is completely different animal outside in this space. So understanding what type of leader you are, and what type of people you need to be around you to compensate for your weaknesses is going to be a big thing. And so this is not ego driven work. This is work that you literally have to be a servant of yourself, other vets, your family community, like you are the lowest person on the totem pole. And I tell people that when they come and work for me, they say they want to come work, nobody works for me, I work for everybody else, right? My job is to make sure that you know the people that we have, you know, working at the farm, I give them the tools for them to be successful. Because if they're successful, the organization's successful, our veterans who serve the communities we serve are successful. So what's really the biggest thing is your mindset in in Seoul, right? Like where is that if being a servant is not something that you want or to do, then this is not the job for anybody like that they can participate in other ways, but just requires an undying commitment, passion to doing the right thing, and to healing, not only yourself, but our communities and our planet in the most pure spiritual way that that you can ever imagine. And so that's why this works. That's why comfort performs is work and why we got a pretty good pulse on our program.

Alissa Hessler: 37:50

What does it mean to you now to be able to devote your life to be in the service of others, and to really be helping rehabilitate veterans who are coming home from combat?

Unknown: 38:03

Well, I mean, it means the world to me, and you know, it, literally, you know, we represent 1% of the population, that shoulders, the, the security of this of this nation, you know, and so when you are a servant, your servant, regardless of what you think, right, and regardless of what what you do, everything is, is motivated by the service of others. And it's when we're not serving on the capacity that was as great if not greater than our military service, I believe that that is when we start getting the spiraling down and out of control for you know, vets like myself who need a purpose. So farming for purpose, creating opportunities for a purpose, you know, everything is purpose driven, which falls back in line with the agro cognitive behavioral therapy, everything is, is geared toward helping others and, and stepping out of your shell in doing, you know, and just doing the right thing. And that's my service, you know, and, and that's what kind of keeps me going through the bad days, you know, when it's when it's raining, or it's cold, and hey, that's what Mother Nature has given me. Right? The same when I was in the military. And we have the, you know, the, we always say, hey, name random name training. It's kind of like, carried over the same, like, things that I did when I was in the military over into the form that help people like, you know, because honestly, people look at me, and they are even a leader, wherever you're at, they're gonna look at you to see what your attitude if your attitude is crappy. If your attitude is like, you know, I can't do this or blah, blah, blah, we're always negative that's gonna steal down on everybody else. So it's really important for me to maintain I mean positively, especially in the most tribal times because of it. And the people around them really rely on that.

Alissa Hessler: 40:08

I just wanted to give an enormous thank you to all of you who have made contributions to offset the production costs of this podcast, it means so much to me that you find enough meaning and value to pledge your support to keep this going. If you haven't had a chance to contribute, we've made it really easy for you just click the support button on the top of urban Exodus website, you can also get access to bonus episodes, rapid fire interviews, and our new mini podcast, ditch the city by signing up for our apple podcast premium. Or you can become a member of the urban Exodus online community where you can access hundreds of photos, stories, interviews, tutorials, videos, and more. Find out more by visiting the membership page on urban exodus.com. the distraction of it in some ways is part of the healing, right, like just keeping yourself busy and occupied and focused on that purpose. And I think like for all people like beyond not just veterans, I think every person, you know, is seeking that kind of looking for what their purpose is, or where or their, you know, their passion and their skills kind of overlap. And I wondered if you had any advice for anyone who is looking for that, but there may be feeling overwhelmed at just the enormity of the problem that we're facing right now and feels like they don't have any power to make real impactful

Unknown: 41:38

change, you know, big problems, right? Big problems, require big solutions in it is very difficult to put those things in place, when you have a destination in mind. Because it's, you know, it does become overwhelming, understanding that you're just a spoke on the wheel, versus the whole wheel really helps. Because we're just one part into progressive way of thinking and healing process. We're not the thing, we're part of the thing. And so when I realized that, you know, if we take our mission veterans as being part of the, you know, the mission that we're serving, everything else, there are other organizations out there that are that are helping, and we want to be a part of those organizations that are helping versus versus not, you know, and so my advice to people is to just worry about what you can do, and your footprint, because there's no way we can save all the world, that whole world, but we can save the people that happen to come around us in our, you know, our debt our taxes are, so I worry about my community, and the veterans that are within that community. And those people are inspired to share what they've learned with others that are outside of our community. So I just focus on them and not get overwhelmed.

Alissa Hessler: 43:16

That creates ripple effects. And I love what you said about not having a destination in mind. Because I think that as you work towards purpose, and people see what you're doing, and they want to be a part of it, like you could go down any number of pathways and, and just being flexible and open to collaboration. I think that's all such good advice. I mean, we're living in a particularly divisive time in our country. And as someone who's built something that brings to keep people together of all different backgrounds. I wonder if you had any advice on the best way to build bridges and foster meaningful dialogues and create community that isn't just one type or group of people?

Unknown: 43:58

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God, you want to talk about divisive culture then and things? It is? It is not? First of all, I think one of the biggest things that we've been able to do is separate the farm from our own personal, political and social beliefs. Right. So the farm and as a nonprofit, I run it in the way that my nonprofit is inclusive to everyone versus being exclusive. Right? These are the things that and I encourage friends from all different walks of life, in people from all different walks of life, we share one commonality and as the love of good food I've learned and Afghanistan and Iraq through some of the most craziest times and things like that, you know that You know, here we are fighting these people. And the one time that we are able to ever get some sort of diplomacy was when we sat down broke bread and ate food together, right. And so I came up with this kind of this thing that said, you know, I kind of disbelief of mine is that, you know, food in music brings supplements in table, like, literally, you know, we could disagree on everything, but when we can share it, share each other's food, and we can tolerate each other's music, you know, cultural expression, again, this 20 foot walls are broken down to three footballs where I'm not making, I'm not making the termination about individual that I don't know, I'm actually, you know, making decisions on a person that I do know who has a family like mine, who, who is interested in some of the things that I'm interested to. And I think that's kind of like, the way that we, we come together and colorforms has done such an amazing, amazing job with, with bringing people to the table to break bread. And I have seen people who are on total opposite ends of the spectrum, for political and religious actually sit down conversate. And just, you know, having the greatest time with one another, and it is so special, and magical to see those things, especially when they become like good friends over Facebook, and then, you know, fight over politics and can't wait to get back to the farm so they can drink whiskey and have fun again, you know, so

Alissa Hessler: 46:37

I mean, I really think exactly what you said food and music and conversation and, and people like won't even have conversation anymore. And there's like, almost like, you know, political, like badges that people wear, where they won't even communicate with one another. And I think that by creating those community spaces where people can maybe have some of their stereotypes broken down or challenged, that's where real, you know, change can be had, instead of like yelling at someone.

Unknown: 47:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's so funny, you know, I'm conservative, I have followed conservative principles. And I remember talking to one of my conservative friends who's really, really conservative. And, you know, I was telling him that, you know, I believe in reparations, right? And he's like, what, you know, and so his ideas about this things were totally one way and till I really, really start talking to him about, you know, like, literally, like, what does it mean to be Irish American, you know, Hispanic, American, or all these American isms? If you look at each one of those cultures, and even his cultural Italian American, he actually looked at it too, and was just like, Well, yeah, all these things are associated with my cultures, new Americans. And I asked him a simple question. I said, I'm African American. So please explain to me what is African about my American? It the light bulb went off? And I was like, exactly, it's, it's, I'm only African for what you told me I should be. Not what my culture. And I said, imagine you being Italian for what I told you that you should be not what your culture is. And he actually started crying. Like, he literally teared up because he was like, how, like, in his mind, like, how could you? How can people like have that ripped away from him because he knew how much that meant to him. And that was what we had a conversation on that led towards, you know, building what was broken building what was ripped away building what was torn down, right, rebuilding those things. And so he was just very, like, wow, but those are the only conversations that you can, you know, we can have hard conversations and make them palatable, right. And I use, I use our audience and colorforms as a way to have those like, really those, those conversations that you'd see that would just lead to straight fights on social media. We have those conversations amongst ourselves and in very safe places where where we all respect one another in a way that's just super uplifting.

Alissa Hessler: 49:14

Absolutely. And I mean when you are able to show the humanity behind someone and actually share your lived experience with them. And I just really appreciate that you are fostering community that is able to create kind of open dialogues and let people share experiences with one another because I think that that's the only way that real change can happen.

Unknown: 49:38

Yeah, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I want from nothing. i The hardest conversations I run towards so it's like, get ready.

Alissa Hessler: 49:50

Oh, absolutely. I would love if you could talk about the late P Dumont, I'm gonna butcher this I'm gonna butcher it can you say correctly festival?

Unknown: 50:00

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, it's called the LEA pa demand festival. I was trying to find like a veterans type event that we celebrate the lives in the sacrifices that are best for me. And I was just trying to do it in a way that was just super meaningful, and run towards the things that, you know, scare most of us. I had an opportunity to attend a few breweries and the butchery festival is based on the the French word to share means to butcher, right. And so, you know, dedication country and throughout the world. You know, people, you know, they kind of butcher an animal on Sundays, and they have make everything from head to tail a fest, you know, all the meals for the for the following week are going to be made with this animal. And so the next week, another family, you know, provides the animal and so forth and so on. So that kind of builds community. So what we decided to do was how to, you know, how do we honor our events? How do we how do we honor the warfighters who came before us to do some great things, the sacrifices that they made for our freedoms, and so the bursary for me was like, Hey, this is it. This is the one event that I know that I can do from that to really do it. And so we decided to claim the French I live in the Piedmont regional Georgia. And so instead of calling it the Piedmont, illusory, we call it the LEA candy Mont Bucha ring, which literally means the butcher at the foot of the mountain. It's become an amazing vet event. We have celebrity chefs that come here every year to take part. A lot of people in the chef community closed in businesses down and they just bring their their teams out. And it's all because of really, really getting closer to the veterans, to the vet trend community. We do. Active at the LEA Pittman fishery we do in an epi ceremony, a sweat lodge from based out of the Lakota Nation, and we have the sweat lodge for our kill teams, because you want their minds and their souls to be right. Last year, we also did a woman sweat only which never happened. Even the lady from Lakota Nation has never done an only woman sweat. And it was powerful because of this word vets and vet women who were there primarily veteran women who needed their own healing and in a place to be able to the top up there on the top of our Ridge looking over the low fishing group. And then we do a veteran sweat, no distraction. Sweat is specifically from veterans in over the years we have had so many veterans tell other veterans about this. And the participation for veterans across the country has just been insane. In so this three day event is just a festival to reflect on the wives and the sacrifices of our veterans who have paid so much, but also the farmers who are also part of 1% it gives so much in total so hard to provide food for all of us and we pair them up with butchers and, and chefs, you really bring the reverence to every single dish that immediately can be a part of and so it's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful festival. That's that that small, we don't allow more than 350 people, attendees there. So the chef's have been invited by me to come in, I have to know him and seeing you know, out of spirit is because we leave all of our egos in the street before you come up in the comfort farms. Because there's no egos bigger than the ones of the boots. Yeah, cow comfort in the platoon standing up there in the middle of beautiful display a memorial of a 75 soldiers who who've passed and marines and airmen who sacrificed their life that are pretty much at the Center for the whole creates

Alissa Hessler: 53:57

beautiful and you're going into your sixth year of this event, right. And it takes place in January.

Unknown: 54:03

Yeah, so January 13 14th, and 15th is the butchery for next year 2023 It's always the Martin Luther King birthday weekend. So more MLK weekend. It's 16th that Monday, traditionally it's going to be this three days. Did we get people rolling in that Monday prior all the way up until tickets were about to go on sale through our website at stag redstate.org We're going to be selling tickets for that. The biggest thing is, if you don't only you have an opportunity to make to do three days, two days or one day. Most people are coming to do two to three days. But if you do the three day that first day is where we are doing humane slaughter and under on the farm with safety and teaching farmers and teaching people want to homestead or self sufficiency, how things will need to be done with the most amount of reverence that we can for our livestock. So that's those are the things that we push and then on Sunday that's kind of what In our day, our family day, we raise a huge hog for that event. That's a really special time, if you can only make it one day, Sunday's the day to be there at six o'clock in the morning on Sunday for our service out and password. So that's a beautiful event that we do.

Alissa Hessler: 55:17

I know that you have a passion for heirloom seeds and trying to grow and reintroduce and save varieties that otherwise would be lost. I wondered if you could talk about the seed collective that you just started. And quite honestly, I'm just amazed by you, John, I have no idea where you are you juggle all the plates that you have in the air? Yeah, tell me about Tell me about your seat collective.

Unknown: 55:43

I started a small seat collective called out to blonde seed collective. And the purpose of this was like I talked to you about after the war, trying to find ourselves, I started to do that I started to go back, you know, yes, I know, I'm American. I was born here. But I did see DNA. The only thing that I'm attached to here in America is a is a slave ship that came in on around the early, late 1600s, to the early 1700s. And as a slave ship that came in, and went to Virginia, so that's what my my ancestors went to in Virginia, from the slave ship. And ironically, they arrived at the port of comfort, you know, ironically, way back when, right? And so that's where they were, I wanted to do history and to Hawaiian. Yeah, um, you know, my ancestors. But you know, being you know, being African American here is really difficult on trying to find any type of history for who you are, right? I mean, let's start with last names. And, you know, I don't even have my I would you, well, we can go into that. That's just an obvious thing. But what I, what I decided to do was that the easiest way for me to find out who my lineage was, was to look at all the distinct cultures that make up me, and start following the C trails. Just a thought, you know, don't do that. Well, when that happened, the world started opening up to me in ways that I cannot believe I'm writing a book about this, actually, I am the Aachen blondes he collected. The phrase for that, or the kind of like, the slogan is, seeds are the only inheritance given to us by our ancestors. So if you really want to learn who you are, we have to learn about the foods that got our cultures, that inspired our cultures, right. And those those foods seeds help us so but when they're replaced by GMOs, and when they're replaced by a, you know, all these other groups that are out there and replacement through these through these lab seeds, we lose our culture, we lose, it's literally literally cultural genocide. And those things have to stop. And so the seed Collective is literally kind of a library to save seeds of the African diaspora. And all the seeds that mean that that are coming from, you know, ancient Africa, but also from the Americans were Africans who were enslaved by Native Americans as well. That's a part of the culture down in the Caribbean, the things that they did, that's a part of the culture. So learning about this seed collective and what the foods were for, in the subsistence has opened up things for me in a way that it's just been number one empowering, and as an educator to help people like, we have these tough discussions, and we make them palatable through food, literally,

Alissa Hessler: 58:34

the tangents of like the cultural eraser of enslaved peoples coming through and not being able to track your ancestors or who your kin are, when you talk about it. In the essence of seeds. It does become this really like palatable way, again, of delivering very difficult truths. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your book project two, because I know that those are directly related to one another.

Unknown: 59:04

I spent half the year researching this thing. And putting it in giving all my research, I'm now going forward in doing the writing. The book is titled black seeds matter. And it's one of these things where I'm going through my seed journey to help find my to talk to my ancestors through seeds, right, what were the lessons that they that I was not taught in school, right? Because through colonialism, my history only started with slavery. Right? That's just how it is. You know, when I was in private school in Jersey, it was just, you know, Hey, John, you know, yeah, you're black, and it's slavery and Harriet Tubman that was it, right? There was no benefits to the world from from my people. There was nothing that came That was good in my African mother, I was embarrassed by her, because of how Africans were depicted here in America. And so my whole point is, you know, look at the black contributions through not only food, but following, following the food journeys of the empires that existed because of these foods, where they are now, at the end of the day, Africa is the cradle works civilization. And so it's like, my whole point is to show everyone to protect the African inside of them at the end of the day, you know, and that's kind of what I'm gonna do seeds. And so

Alissa Hessler: 1:00:38

talking about seeds to, like, the reason that protecting varieties of seeds are even more important now is that we're kind of living in this changing climate. And I wondered, because farming is a profession that's so connected to weather and the seasons, what changes you've noticed to weather patterns and climate in Georgia in recent years.

Unknown: 1:01:05

Oh, man, I tell you, seeds are so important for the main reason is that you really in my my good friend, David Cohen, he taught me this out of Michigan, he's a seed saver, and a great friend of mine, that you really can't have a local food program unless you have a local Seed Program. So how we work with seed companies and we bring in, you know, seeds from all over the country, into our region to grow, like we what we really need to do is be adapting those seeds to our climates, because things are changing, we're going to be experiencing cold in certain parts of the country that we haven't drought in other parts of the country, and our seeds need to reflect that. And if we're not doing it on a regional local level, we're going to suffer and we're we just make more room for these non viable seeds to come out from chemical companies that address those things, not naturally, we even go further than that. Right now, I'm taking Dr. Elaine Ingram's course, on on the soil food web. So that way I can really understand, you know, our soils in the microbes. When we take a little when we pay attention to our soils, more so than our food. Now we're into a much deeper, deeper conversation on the sustainability of this planet. There was many, many indigenous techniques that extended out of Africa, into Brazil, and up into Europe and across into India and Asia, that were developed for sustainability. And those that have kind of practices that that old indigenous knowledge is what we need to go back to the English language is one of the you know, is one of the languages that separates our ecosystem from who we are like, we're separate, we refer to trees, things and animals and things in it, versus how indigenous people looked at them as spirits and beings as part like we are part of these things. And it actually were the lowest part of these things not higher than anything, when we it really starts in how we educate our children. And, you know, we're not asking people to, you know, be tree huggers, per se, but to really understand that, you know, our planet is a living spirit, it has energy, and that energy exists in all of us. And we need to take care of that, as not separate from it. But as being a part of it is part of the immune system. And so our language needs to change how we view things need to change, it's just a whole, like, I can go on that topic for ever. But that was a big part of how I started making my transition into, like a more wholesome, like, good quality of life was really connecting myself unplugging from, I would say, the views and ideas of what people think is normal and acceptable. And you know, unplugging from that and plugging back into the earth as being part of the system. Because when you're part of the system you want to take care of.

Alissa Hessler: 1:04:16

Ah, yes. And I think that that is so much of what this project and the people that I've sought out to speak in this project is about, it's disconnecting from, you know, in some ways people could call it capitalism. I know, again, that's another one of those trigger words that freaks people out, but, but it's like this idea of us being separate from the natural world and not being like a part of it and putting hierarchies in place that we're at the top when really like we all have to function together. I just so appreciate the work that you're doing in all facets of your life and, and how it's all interconnected. Did with one another, but also like feeding these different parts of you that are passionate? What legacy Do you want to leave behind for future generation?

Unknown: 1:05:12

So that's a great question, I would love to, especially with my children, starting there first, to be ambassadors of the world, just right underneath their feet to really look at that, hey, you know, they, you know, in order to take care, in order to take care of the planet, that they have to take care of the soil that they're standing on, you know, you know, learn from Mother Nature, like all the lessons that are there, you know, I mean, there's so so many lessons and apply those into our lives, they should be our foundation for teaching for education, for compassion, for, for truth, everything that we do to pursue excellence in a way that it's just, just, like, natural and noble, I work hard with them to try to teach them the natural way, the natural world in ways that I don't, I have not necessarily grown up learning, but because of this project, it has forced me to, like really do some deep, you know, like soul searching within myself for what type of human that I want to be. And I'm just trying to create, do my part by giving my my children and my family to the world to make it better, you know, and then aspects I do, do, I do my job with what my kids because they're there, they're part of this world, and they're gonna be our next, you know, future leaders and policy makers, and I want them to have a really good foundation and truth of this earth, you know, in a way that that is that they can speak to it intelligently, and keep their anger under control and be inspired people and also seek to be inspired by others. So that's, that's, that's what I wanted to do.

Alissa Hessler: 1:07:01

How can people support your mission, learn more about your programs and find you online, follow your journey,

Unknown: 1:07:09

you can follow us at stag vets inc.org. Sta je VTSI mc.org. Sign up for our newsletter, we're actually undergoing a new website change relatively soon. So you can follow us there, Facebook and Instagram at comfort farms, you can you can follow us there as well. We post a lot, we're very active on social media, between those three, just kind of, you know, stay in touch, send me a message, if you get questions. I'm always willing to answer, it'll just take me a few days to get to him. But if you send it through the website, our admin will get it. And she'll put it at the top of my list.

Alissa Hessler: 1:07:51

And do you have any advice for anyone that might be listening to this who knows a veteran that struggling on just the best ways to plug them in to something to help them?

Unknown: 1:08:01

Yeah, so if you know a veteran that's struggling, first thing is acknowledge the struggle, acknowledge that, hey, you know, things, you know, things kind of go, you know, south, sometimes a be non judgmental, right about those things. Offering time and space is always is always a good thing, respecting that. But also respect the fact that, you know, let them know that these are normal, and that you're not here to judge you're there to, to listen, if they're willing to talk, you know, and be, be available be available, it takes a lot of trust for that to T to speak up, because a lot of vets have been let down. And so just just be positive. And even when things are very negative, just always continue to stay positive, once they're willing to talk. And that's kind of like the purpose, the number one way to kind of connect them to resources, if you know of anything, their place, always connect in the comfort forms. And to me, I get I get messages from all over the country about that. And I'm working with, you know, currently on a lot of different projects. So I have a lot of other resources that we can kind of help with and always willing to help that is definitely willing to help themselves.

Alissa Hessler: 1:09:16

Thank you so much, John. It's been an absolute privilege to speak with you and appreciate Yeah, absolutely. And I hope I get to meet you one of these days and just keep up the amazing work. Yeah. You're You're such an inspiration to all of us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again, John, for joining us on the show. Some of my key takeaways from this episode. First, you can't have a local food movement without a local seed movement. Seeds are a vital part of our history, and they are often missing in the local food conversation. As John would say, seeds are an integral part of our heritage and are a gift passed down to us through the generations after speaking with John, I have an even greater appreciation of the many sacrifices the veterans have made. My brother, my father and my grandfather's all served during wartime and all returned with the inevitable mental and physical scars of combat. We need to support organizations like comfort farms, who understand what veterans are going through, and can offer alternatives to heal and readjust to civilian life. And lastly, the healing effects of nature have no bounds. Hiking agro therapy, forest bathing swimming in the like. There's something so therapeutic, beautiful and profound about the natural world. To donate to comfort farms, you can visit stag vets Inc, dot o RG. Hi, friends, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the urban Exodus podcast. This is a listener supported program that is only made possible through your continued support. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban access to your friends. An enormous thank you to my incredible producer Simone Leon, and my amazing editor Johnny Saul, and my music man Benjamin Thoreau, and thanks to all of you for listening. I'm Alissa Hessler, and this is the urban Exodus