#19 "Embracing the Neurodivergent Umbrella and Neurodiversity Paradigm" with Sonny Jane Wise

Sonny Jane Wise, the Lived Experience Educator, is a multiply neurodivergent advocate and the author of their upcoming book "The Neurodivergent Umbrella".  They come to us today from Australia with brilliant thoughts and feelings about the neurodiversity paradigm, the difference between neurodiversity and neurodivergence, and why neurodivergence is far more about our mindbodies and how we function than how our brains are wired.  

We share ideas about reducing pathologizing language, challenging the DSM, supporting self-diagnoses, and why there should be less gatekeeping and more umbrellas with regards to the intended inclusivity of neurodivergence. Sonny shares their visions of a society that makes room for people to unmask and diverge without shame or judgement. 

Enjoy this spirited and empowered conversation on your favorite podcast platform or watch on youtube. And please consider subscribing and reviewing (on apple, preferably) if you found this episode useful and please share! Thank you. 



To reach Sonny @livedexperienceeducator
https://livedexperienceeducator.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello, everybody. I'm Pasha Marlowe, the host of NeuroQuerying. And today, I say this often, I'm excited to have this guest, but today I'm extremely excited to have this guest because I've been admiring Sonny Jane Wise's work on social media now for over a year. And their work has really not only inspired part of my work, but challenged how I think about neurodiversity and neurodivergence in a brilliant way that I don't think anybody else could have done because they do it through color and art and wisdom in just a very creative way. So welcome, lived experience educator, advocate, writer of the new upcoming book, The Neurodivergent Umbrella, Sonny Jane Wise. Welcome. Hello, thank you for having me. Absolutely. So Australia, you're in Australia, right? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Which always shocks people, uh, surprisingly enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Where do they think you're from?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

I'm not sure, but I assume it's because I have such an erratic sleep pattern that they just assume I'm in another time zone.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Okay. Well, you're in another another world in time zone of your own. Uh I'm I'm all the way over here in Maine, United States. And uh so yes, we're in we're in completely different sides of the world, uh, different seasons, um, but very much aligned in our passion for reaching out to everyone about uh the neurodiversity paradigm and uh the difference between neurodiversity and neurodivergence, which I know that you we might as well just start there because I feel like I I don't want to say correct people, I feel like I have this discussion with people every day and sometimes it becomes an argument. And literally what I hear is people would rather be called because it sounds better, neurodiverse than neurodivergent. That's the the entirety of their argument.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

That is exactly what it comes down to, and like to the point, people will actually say that it doesn't matter, you know, what it used to mean, it matters, you know, what it means now. And it's like, but it doesn't mean that now. The definition of diverse hasn't changed. The definition of neurodiverse or neurodiversity has not changed. You're just using it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Thank you. Yes, exactly. So let's just start there. What is your definition of neurodiversity? Of a term, by the way, coined by supposedly by Judy Singer, whereas neurodivergent is a term coined by, I hope I pronounced her name right, Kasein Asum, uh, asu asasumasu. Yeah, no, perfect. Yeah. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Well, obviously, my definition of neurodiversity is uh Judy Singer's definition of neurodiversity. Okay. Um, and neurodiversity is just a biological fact that you know refers to the variants of human minds like within our society. It basically just refers to how uh, you know, people and their minds are diverse, just like, you know, uh nature is diverse, just like um, you know, gender is diverse, just like our sexuality or our cultures are diverse. Just refers to the variance in a population or group, and that population is human society.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

I'm noticing that nowhere in that definition did you say brain.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, so funny enough, funny enough, um, I actually had a conversation with Judy Singer um uh pro couple of weeks ago, and uh Judy Singer like finds that you know uh brains don't really sum it up because obviously, even if you ignore neurodiversity, every single brain is different. There is no one brain that is exactly the same. What Judy Singer means is that when we say mind, we mean like, you know, the way we function, that you know, every single person functions differently. Um and I know Judy Singer believes that uh the mind body is kind of more of an accurate term than brain, purely because people are not their brains. Yes, people weigh more than their brains, yes. Um moving away from saying brains.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Mind body, I like that. And yeah, and then in turn, how do you define neurodivergent?

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Well, I know this definition off by heart. Neurodivergent refers to someone whose mind or functioning diverges from dominant societal norms, expectations, and standards.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

You do have that by heart. It's as if you've got it so many times, yes. And again, no mention of brain. So it's a very societal uh view. So the difference when people describe neurodivergence as a difference in brains, that's not fully the whole story and not accurate.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Yeah, because it's just so much more than brains. Um, I feel like we're gonna say like brains so many times, but just not is this is like a podcast about zombies? But no, like it's because it's got to do with our functioning, it's got nothing to do with like, you know, the inner the inside of our brains purely because I think, you know, as well, so much of our neurodivergence is based on, you know, uh observable differences in behavior. Um, you know, and we don't have enough of that, you know, science, I guess, to be like, yeah, this person's brain is entirely different. We can assume, we can guess by you know, someone's differences in functioning, but you know, we don't have that clear cut, this is what this brain does, this is what this brain does. And as well, we also can't ignore the fact that there's neuro. So people automatically assume neuro means brain, whereas you know, it actually doesn't. Um, and so yeah, people get caught up on that prefix.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Neuro means mind or nervous neuro means nervous system.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

What what do you uh mind body? So the mind and the body together, like all of it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yes. And when I think about my neurodivergence, uh uh ADHD, autism, dyslexia, uh, PTSD, uh, it could probably name more, uh multiply, multiply neurodivergent, how much I embody it, how much it comes out in my my movement, in my relations with others. Uh, and so it it would be very challenging for me to think of this specifically about how I think, because because to your point, it is not, is how you move and interact with the world.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah. And I feel like as well, a lot of people kind of base what is neurodivergent based on uh uh like how your brain is wired. So often they can use that whole brain argument to invalidate or dismiss certain neurodivergence. Like obviously, you know, we know for autism and ADHD, our brains have are diff literally wired differently. But if there isn't that, you know, uh common argument or proof for other neurodivergences, they're like, oh, it doesn't count. But it's like it doesn't matter how your brain is wired. It doesn't matter if there's proof that your brain is different, it's all about how you function.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yes, yes. And some neurodivergence is innate and some is acquired, or would you say even learned? I think about Nick Walker's work, and she talks about in neuroqueer heresies uh monks and those that mutt meditate and change their brain so that it does diverge from the social norm, but it's learned. Do you do you see that in the neurodivergent umbrella as well?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

I I think so. I especially, you know, I think it's the fact that, you know, they don't just function differently, but they think differently, they feel differently, they meditate differently. I mean, even technically speaking, um uh, you know, left-handedness that could be uh classed as uh neurodivergence too, purely because uh, you know, especially throughout history, right-handedness has been, you know, was the norm. Um, you know, most things have been built for people who use their right hand. And obviously, uh right-handedness and left-handedness has like different features in the brain or something like that. Um, so like, you know, that's a good example. Um, another uh example would be, you know, giftedness. Uh while I'm not like 100% for the term, obviously, you know, gifted giftedness refers to individuals who have like a really high IQ. They fall outside the norm to the point that they think differently. So therefore, they're also neurodivergent. Um, mind you, you know, they're not neurodivergents that has been pathologized by society, but they do think differently.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yes, yes. And what is your uh perspective on trauma? Uh, those folks with trauma, how trauma changes the brain, do you consider trauma a neurodivergence?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Oh, absolutely. Purely based on the fact that they function differently. They interpret the world differently, they approach relationships differently, they have emotional differences, um, you know, they process memories differently. Um, you know, how they function or how they interpret and move through the world is different to the norm. It doesn't matter, you know, how they came to diverge, it just matters that they do diverge.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

Yes, which leads me to one of the questions I've been very much excited to ask you. If we're including all of this under the umbrella, which I agree with, and I don't know anyone who hasn't experienced trauma, for example, is are we diverging from the norm or are is it going to turn out that most people are neurodivergent? But then how can we be all neurodivergent, or so many of us be neurodivergent if we're diverging from the norm? But then how could we not be the norm if so many people have most people have trauma? Do you see where I'm going?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

I get this question a lot. And obviously it's a really valid question, and we need this question because it proves that there is no such thing as normal. Exactly. There is no such thing as normal, however, there is such a thing as, I guess, neuronormativity. There is such a thing as, you know, uh socially constructed ideas of how people should function. Same way how, you know, there isn't a normal gender, but there is a gender, cisgender, that, you know, has been uh catered to throughout society, that is centered throughout society. And the same goes for functioning.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

I love that you reframed it that way, uh, that it's about neuronormativity, uh, just as we see heteronormativity and the the social constructs of gender. And and so if we're looking at it from we're diverging from the normativity, uh, that's that's that's makes more sense to me. Uh, yeah, yeah. Okay. And then what about you mentioned pathologizing, the pathologizing language of neurodivergence for, for example, ADHD uh disorder uh at the end of that uh ASD autism spectrum disorder. And that if I say I am autistic, that feels true. If I say I am ADHD, I don't I don't like that I'm saying I am disorder, even though I want to non-pathologize my languaging around my identity. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

It's uh it's hard because obviously, you know, so many of these labels that we have embraced and have, you know, reframed, you know, uh is still based on the pathology paradigm. It's still based on the concept of disorder. So, you know, for a lot of words, uh for a lot of labels and diagnoses, you know, disorder is built into the term. Um, you know, for example, with autism spectrum disorder, you can get away with dropping the D and saying autism. Uh, same with you know, bipolar disorder, you can drop the D and just say bipolar. ADHD, we can't do that. Um, and I know, you know, different people have started suggesting different names, like uh I think one of them's you know, vast. I don't like that. I don't like that. Um purely because it's like, you know, uh, oh crap, what is it? I all I know is it ends with it ends in trait, and I don't like that purely because it implies that it's a single trait run of a spectrum or something. Um so yeah, I don't like the name vast. There's someone else who suggested another name, and I also don't like that.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

It's funny because I don't I didn't I don't uh assimilate them and retrieve them either because I didn't uh I don't it I don't attach to it. Attach them, yeah. I didn't integrate it. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, I made a joke uh last night on my Instagram about removing the two Ds from ADHD, you know, removing deficit and disorder. So then it'll just be attention hyperactivity and then it'll just be ah and then we could all introduce ourselves as ah or we could reverse that and go, ha, just to be and bring in the laughters.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Exactly. Yes. Uh I have heard that one of the reasons why there isn't a big uh push to change the labeling of ADHD and other um disorders, if you will, is because of the disability acts and some of the privileges that have now come and accommodations that have come because of the name and some of the laws that have been created, and that it would be messy. Now, of course, it's already messy, but it's interesting that that's the reason that I'm often given when I ask.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah, it's hard because it's you know, we do exist in a society that uh is rooted in the pathology paradigm that you know revolves around a DSM. You know, university, workplaces, uh, you know, government services, insurance, access to mental health, it all revolves around a DSM. So, you know, we are stuck having this paradigm uh, you know, give us, you know, the services and access to support and accommodations and proof that we need. But you know, I think it's also possible to acknowledge the reality of this, but then still, you know, uh emphasize that we aren't disordered, that we don't have a disorder.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Mm-hmm. Yes. I mean, when you mentioned the DSM, I really am now wondering. Uh I'm thinking about white supremacy and capitalism, of course. It's all made up and the patriarchy. Like, who made this shit up? And who wrote it, and who determined that this was the Bible of you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Well, funny, funny story. Uh, we don't have to go too deep into DSM because I could speak about that for hours, but basically, uh, and I'm gonna like paraphrase so much, uh, but basically at the beginning, uh, they like when psychiatry came about, they uh psychiatry were kind of like seen as quacks. They were seen as not real doctors, not real medicine. Um, you know, the medical prof uh community around them just didn't see them as valid. So they realized uh that psychiatry realized that they had to basically create a book to prove what they were saying. They needed needed to create a book so people would believe them that, you know, mental disorders were a real thing. So they ended up creating this DSM. And what I like to say is, haven't we learned not to like, you know, believe everything we've read? And so it it escalated from there. There's actually no scientific basis in the DSM, it was just used so psychiatry could get money and prove, um, prove themselves to the medical community that they were valid.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

It's all biased. Right. Oh my gosh, we keep we just have to keep following, uh, following the money and uh going upstream and seeing who's in charge here and why.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Like, you know, went from like 30 uh disorders to like 300 within a few years purely because they had to like you know keep adding stuff or you know, to make money and to profit and everything. They there wasn't it wasn't like you know, they did actual, you know, a lot of research or studies into these valid disorders. And I hope everyone knows that I'm using quotation marks. So like it's not like it was valid, it's just uh it's all made up. And if you actually like you know go into the history of the DSM, you can see how so many of the quotation marks disorders are rooted in capitalism and white supremacy and racism.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Yes, yes. In the late 1900s, when I was a marriage and family therapist working with the DSM because that's what I was trained to do, and that was seemingly the way to that that was all I was taught. And um, and yet innately and intuitively, it felt so wrong to look at people, to be with humans in all of their beautiful forms and sit with a family and then look for this family to one diagnosis, which had a code, which meant they'd get 10 sessions, which meant the insurance would cover it, that I would like somehow take all the dynamics of this one family and bring it into this like few words or this code. It felt wrong from the start. So I I left I left the profession um from that alone. I just felt intuitively wrong, and it's still how people are doing it, it's still how it works. It's yeah, really a shame. Um, I read today, and I can't remember who said it, but they were talking about gatekeeping. You know, are you neurodivergent enough to be called neurodivergent? Are you neurodivergent enough to receive these um accommodations? Uh and one of her, and she mentioned the umbrella. And I don't know if you did you coin the term neurodivergent umbrella? Um uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I haven't, I didn't, hadn't seen neurodivergent referred to as an umbrella for uh, you know, commonly. Um I do know I was the one that created like the first neurodivergent umbrella graphic that actually was accurate. Um, and the reason I did is because I'd seen a few other graphics that listed examples of neurodivergence that, you know, only listed the, you know, top four.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Yes, you and you included a lot of the mental health uh you know terms, and that was very helpful. I I use that graphic often often I refer to it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I think it's honestly my most popular graphic ever.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yes. Um, so this woman I was uh reading a post from today was saying, let's do less gatekeeping, let's let's stop building gates and hold more umbrellas, was the final line, right? I love that. Isn't that nice? And I had just these visions of everyone holding colorful, of course, rainbow-colored umbrellas, and just like this is an inclusive term, people. Uh neurodivergent is an inclusive term, and that there's a lot of uh gatekeeping uh within and outside the community as to like who can be called neurodivergent. And um, and if you don't have a diagnosis from a psychiatrist, are you sure? Are you sure you're neurodivergent? And I highly value self-diagnoses, especially as we get older, because we know ourselves so well. And frankly, we research the shit out of things, right? Because we are curious.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Oh, absolutely, right? And just the fact that, you know, some people uh just believe that, you know, individuals with certain diagnoses can't actually uh can't know themselves. And it's like, so you literally believe that people with, you know, certain mental health conditions or certain neurodevelopmental conditions can't know themselves. That's an indication of how they think and view someone with like, you know, a mental health condition. They think we're lacking insight or that we're blinded by our quotation marks, disorder that we can't know ourselves at all. I'm like, the ableism in that kind of assumption is just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

And so what is your dream? Vision outside of uh publishing this book, and I I'm it's going to be wildly successful, and then you'll be asked to write many more after it uh to dig into probably some of the issues within the book. Um, but what is your vision for the the future of the neurodiversity paradigm and the neurodivergent umbrella? What do you hope to see in your lifetime?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Good God. Um honestly, I would like to see prof every like professional adopt the neurodiversity paradigm. I would like to see workplaces adopt a neurodiversity paradigm. I'll like to see schools adopt it. I would like to see the neurodiversity paradigm be like a you know year-long unit or subject within, you know, uh degrees. Yes. Um I yeah, I would like it to be like a view adopted by society.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Yes, yes. Less uh with less pathologizing and uh more uh not just awareness, but and not just acceptance, but really celebration of it as well. Uh yeah, it's there's a in the in the ADHD uh community often I hear people saying, Stop calling it a superpower because it'll diminish our struggles. Stop calling it a stop saying we're spicy because we want to we want to acknowledge like the true challenges and we want people to understand. Oh I hate neuro, I hate neurospicy. I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that. Like why? Because it sounds better again.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Is it sounds more palatable? It sounds less, you know, it's similar to saying differently abled. That's how it feels to me. You know, you're not neurodivergent, you're neurospicy, you're not disabled, you're differently abled. It's just a way of making it sound better. Um, to you know, because you know, we're still so caught up on this idea that diverging is bad. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Right. And yet those who accept their divergence also accept and uh really appreciate thinking outside the box in all the ways. I think about how so many people I know who come out neurodivergent uh and start to unmask and start to really embrace this part of themselves, also then come out in all the different other ways, such as coming out queer. Like they're fine, they're of course it was always this way, but then they were starting to unmask and reveal their truth and be able to.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Yeah, again, rid of those boxes. Yeah. Yeah, stepping out of those boxes.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah. I just feel like it happens simultaneously sometimes, um, that that people step out of those boxes in many ways, and then it kind of unfolds in such a beautiful way that and often it's cut causes some uh kind of chaos initially of they lose people who don't like who they are when they're speaking their mind and when they're speaking their truth and when they're unmasked. Um, and then they gain, even more importantly, all these wonderful, colorful, neurodivergent, creative people in their circles. And that's such a beautiful transition to watch.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah, no, it really is. And I think, you know, that's kind of also part of the importance of moving towards society that accepts and embraces the neurodiversity paradigm. Because when we can do that, we are making room for people to unmask and be themselves and diverge without shame or judgment. And if we do move towards that kind of society where people are allowed to diverge and we don't pathologize people because they diverge, we're gonna have a whole lot less trauma. We're gonna have a whole lot less people growing up viewing themselves as broken or abnormal or unwell.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Yes. Yes. That let's end on that. That is that is uh truth and um and a beautiful vision for the future. Uh, when is your book coming out?

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Um, I have no idea. I believe it is this year. Um it should be uh probably from I'll go August onwards. So second half of the year.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Okay. Well, standing room-only lines around the world, I'm sure, to find that book when it comes out. Uh, until then, I know people can reach you on Instagram and TikTok Lived Experience Educators.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Are there other places that you um I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and occasionally TikTok. I haven't really uh caught up with a TikTok game. I don't think I'll ever catch up with a TikTok game, but I'm on there.

unknown 26:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

You're you're doing fantastic with the resources you have and the and the uh social media platforms are just so well done. So I encourage anyone who's listening to follow Sunny. And um you probably don't want a bunch of people emailing you and reaching out to you otherwise. But if they were to reach out to you and want to ask you a question, do you receive questions or do you receive uh I don't know, do you take clients or do you not really do that? What do you what do you do?

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Um yeah, I take questions. Um whether I answer them or not, uh depends. But yeah, I do take questions. And yeah, I do take uh I don't see like clients individually, but I do workshops and the occasional consultation and all that. So, you know, you can always email and just see what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Email and just hope. Just hope that for the best interesting on a day, on a day that you feel like answering it. Right. Yeah, I love it. You make that so clear, and it's it's really uh very boundaried and and uh as well as endearing when I read your website. I was like, Yes, that feels so good to read. I was just resonating. I'm just keeping it real. Absolutely, yeah. Well, once we unmask, oh, it would be uh exhausting to go back into the box and mask again. So here we are. Well, thank you so much, Sunny, for your time. I know it's very early there. I hope you have a wonderful day there. And um, I hope our paths cross again.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

No, that's okay. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

You are a very comfortable host. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, it's a pleasure. And I don't know who out there is listening because we're talking to the void, but hopefully, if you enjoyed this podcast, it would be very helpful if you subscribe and review and do all those things, but also share it so that other people can learn about the neurodivergent umbrella and the differences between neurodiversity and neurodivergence. And follow Sunny's work and uh yeah, let us know what you thought of this conversation. Um, so excited you're here neuroquering with us. Thanks, everybody.

unknown 28:56

Thank you. Bye.