Kyle Oliver: Hello, this is Kyle Oliver from Church Divinity School of the Pacific, and I am here with Bishop Kym Lucas, who is approaching her fifth anniversary as the bishop diocesan in the Episcopal Church in Colorado. Do I have the right terminology?
Kym Lucas: Yes. That's how we refer to ourselves.
Kyle: Great. Bishop Kim, thank you so much for being with us. I'm going to start with just a little bit of scene-setting here. There's a couple of things that are the basis of our conversation today, and the big one that we'll get to a bit later on is that CDSP is launching a curacy program that will give our graduates an opportunity to work in up to full-time paid ministry in their diocese after graduation and can take away some of the financial anxiety of making that transition from seminary to full-time ministry for folks who weren't already in full-time ministry.
The launch of the curacy program is part of the backdrop, but we've been finding as we've been having these conversations that we also just can't overlook the fact that we're in an interesting moment in terms of the deployment of clergy and leaders in the Episcopal Church. We're hearing a lot about a clergy shortage, long predicted, maybe now coming to the fore. At the very least, it seems like we're having challenges getting the right candidates connected with the right jobs in a wide variety of settings, full-time versus part-time, shared roles, different parts of the country.
how are you viewing the current clergy deployment situation, either from the perspective of the Episcopal Church in Colorado or from just your broader vantage point as a bishop of the church?
Kym: I have to tell you, I remember when I was first ordained being told that there was a glut of clergy and it would be really hard to find a job. [chuckles] In that time, it was really curious to me because I was one of the few priests that I knew ordained under the age of 30. I thought it was a little interesting the way it was being perceived. We've seen this coming as we've had a number of second-career folks go into ordained ministry, knowing that they were going to retire sooner than someone who started down that career path like I did. We've seen it coming for a while.
I feel the pinch here in Colorado, especially in terms of trying to find interim clergy. it is almost as if there are none to be had. The few that we have are deeply coveted. It was interesting. I was in a conversation with a bishop from the Anglican Church of Canada, and she suggested, perhaps we just have too many congregations and buildings. That was a very interesting way to look at it from my perspective. The reality that I live with is that my goal is to have emotionally intelligent, faithful, well-formed clergy. That's a process. That's something that doesn't happen automatically or happen quickly in my understanding.
I feel that tension a lot, that tension of feeling the need for more clergy and being committed that the clergy we have are grounded and healthy and well-formed. That's a tough tension to live with.
Kyle: Are there ways of responding, ways of adapting to the current situation that you're finding helpful or hopeful in your neck of the woods?
Kym: One of the things that I've liked about what CDSP has done, especially for my postulants here, is that it's allowed some flexibility for folks who are parents and have jobs to transition into seminary at their own pace. I've really appreciated that because I think it's really important in this day. We talk about with our commission on ministry, forming IEPs or individual education plans for folks because we're in a time where we need that adaptability and flexibility.
Kyle: It feels like there's a real benefit. I went to a residential seminary, but have been plugged in now at CDSP for a number of years. It's really remarkable the ways that people's home contexts, their home, their work, their connection to their diocese. Feeling the ways that those home contexts come into the classroom is really powerful and I think has given me a deep appreciation for what that flexibility can mean for the students who are getting to have that experience. If you could wave a magic wand and change something about how we do deployment, HR, whatever the right comfortable terminology is for you, if we could change something that is holding us back, I wonder what you think it would be.
Kym: I'm actually not sure because we're coming up on the graduation of our first fully-fledged curate, so she's going to graduate soon. I'm really excited about that because one of the things that I've been clear about, especially with some locally formed clergy or clergy that were in hybrid programs, I don't get the sense that they have a chance to grow in their priestcraft very much. What I am really excited about with regards to my newly-fledged priest that's coming out is that she will have that opportunity to work with and be mentored by an experienced rector who has done this ministry and has longevity in this ministry and does it really well.
That's exciting to me because I feel as though so many newly ordained clergy are just thrown to the wolves because we're struggling and there's this feeling of desperation and they don't have the time to observe and to learn and to experience the rhythm of the church year with a leader that could help mentor and support them. I am really excited about that. Do I wish we could pay them more? Of course, but we'll take it. We'll take what we have.
Kyle: Yes, absolutely. Let's transition to talking a bit more about this program. I'm curious if you're willing if you could share your initial impressions upon hearing about this new approach. What did you think when you found out these courses were going to be possible?
Kym: I was very excited about it, firstly, for the reason that I said, that I feel as though from my growth as an ordained minister, I was so blessed to be in a situation where I could be a curate. I could learn the work, do the work, but not have all of the responsibility. That was a beautiful thing for me. I like that this program offers that for folks. I also really appreciate that I have, like most dioceses, so many congregations with a single priest that are too big for a single priest, but not big enough to be able to afford a second priest. That's a hard pinch.
I think that's make or break for a lot of congregations. It's exciting to me that not only do I have the opportunity to provide a livelihood for new priests right out of seminary and to help them find the mentoring that they need, but it also gives a boost to those congregations who are doing okay, but need that one little piece to do better. That's very exciting to me, and so I was thrilled at the possibility that A, I get to keep those folks that we raised up and that B, we can actually help form them for the work of the church.
Kyle: I realize you may or may not be able to talk specifics, but are you hopeful that the kinds of places your folks will be heading are churches in that transitional zone where like a little bit of extra staffing bandwidth right now could help them grow to the next level? Do you think that'll be possibly a common dynamic?
Kym: Yes, that's my hope. It really is my hope.
Kyle: That's really exciting. That's very cool. In the midst of all that, I'm curious about other possibilities that you're excited about and possibly challenges with this program. What are you thinking about in terms of how to help people make this transition?
Kym: I'm hoping that the program will include some time for those in the program to debrief about it so they can actually learn from each other and each other's experiences. I think that's really helpful, and I'm hoping that there's some space for that or some planning around that.
Kyle: That's really helpful. As a diocese with some students at CDSP, what do you think some of the potential impact of this program could be in Colorado?
Kym: I think the impact for us is basically around the opportunity for formation and for learning and for us to-- as I said, it's always hard when I recognize that many of our postulants have to look elsewhere for work because even though there is a shortage of clergy, the number of congregations that can support a full-time curate are few and far between. For us, I think that will be a boon for us in that respect. I also think it's, as I said, really helpful to have that safe space to learn priestcraft with a mentor and a place where you can make mistakes and it's not catastrophic. I appreciate that. I am hopeful that we will continue to have really good candidates to send to this program.
Kyle: Do you see there being a vocation? I've heard this phrase thrown around before, a vocation as a teaching congregation. What traits in a congregation do you think make for a good landing spot for a curate?
Kym: One, I think stable leadership, both in the clergy leadership and the lay leadership, I think that is really important. I think mentor a priest with a good track record both in the congregation and in the diocese. I think a strong lay ministry, really well-formed lay folks are very important in that. I think a congregation that is committed to being engaged with its community. I think those are the characteristics that I look for when I'm thinking about who I'd like to suggest to curate explore ministry with here in Colorado.
Kyle: Those are great, thank you. As we wrap up here, you've already mentioned space among the cohort of curates to reflect on their experience. I'm wondering if there are other pieces of advice, other suggestions that you have for CDSP as we continue to develop this program. Kym: I don't know how much you're thinking about how the formation of a bi-vocational priest might be different than one who is full-time in the priesthood. We're here in Colorado, still having that conversation as the Commission on Ministry and I are in conversation about how does that look different? How does it look the same? We don't have any answers, so if you have them, please share.
[laughter]
Kyle: I don't think we have any either, although we've got students in both situations in these early classes of folks participating in this program or its precursors. We do have people heading into full-time curacies and we have people heading into curacies alongside other kinds of professional or ministry work. Do you see that there's going to be opportunities for both models in Colorado?
Kym: I think so. I think there are a lot of great congregations who have a lot of ministry engagement, but not a lot of financial resource. Figuring out how we find good leadership for them to help support and encourage them in their ministry on a part-time basis is going to be really important.
Kyle: Am I right that in terms of both the size of your state and the topography of your state, the one clergy person, multiple congregations? I know that model's working elsewhere. Am I right in assuming that that's maybe not a great fit for a state like Colorado?
Kym: It's really hard. In fact, one of the parameters we put around folks is that our hope is that they don't have to drive more than 45 minutes to church. That's a long distance, but we have big distances here, over 104,000 square miles, and churches in every corner.
Kyle: Fair enough. I don't think we have any answers yet about the formation of bi-vocational clergy, but I think it's a question that really is in the air and is ripe for conversation in the hybrid program where we have students who are in this program and in many cases, working full-time, "secular jobs". I think from the student side of things, those questions are in the air, but they're tricky questions. Maybe in a couple of years, we can be having a conversation about that.
Kym: That'd be great. [laughs]
Kyle: Bishop Kim, thank you so much for being willing to chat with us and for supporting your students through this program, and for joining us on Crosslands Conversations.
Kym: My pleasure. Thank you.
