Mental Wellbeing and Fulfillment for Litigators: Sara Lord Interviews Gary Miles

This episode is dedicated to Mental Health Awareness Month -- May 2024 -- in which we explore some of the keys to achieving wellbeing as a human litigator.

Lawyers contemplate suicide at "an exceedingly high rate." Whereas 4.2% of adults have reported contemplating suicide, that figure is 10-12% among lawyers. According to a study published by MDPI, lawyers are prone to mental health issues, including anxiety, depression, and substance abuse. "[O]ur findings suggest the profile of a lawyer with the highest risk for suicide is a lonely or socially isolated male with a high level of unmanageable stress, who is overly committed to their work, and may have a history of mental health problems."  Released in 2023, the authors of the study -- Stressed, Lonely, and Overcommitted: Predictors of Lawyer Suicide Risk (Krill, Thomas, Kramer, Degeneffe, and Anker) -- say there is a need for interventions to address these risks,  including  "education, resources, and support for lawyers to better manage their workload, modifying work demands and expectations, and promoting a culture of openness and support within law firms."

With that as a backdrop, guest host and legal analytics professional Sara Lord interviews success coach and former litigator Gary Miles about the professional dissatisfaction litigators experience  when the pursuit of fulfillment clashes with high-stress demands -- from burnout to depression to imposter syndrome. Explore practical strategies for managing anxiety and embracing mindfulness, like reframing your thoughts, celebrating even small achievements, identifying trusted colleagues and mentors, the importance of rest, and reaching out for help. Learn some of the wisdom Gary imparts via his counseling services.

Feeling emotionally crisp?  “There is always a solution. Always,” Gary says.

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Need Immediate Help? If you are in the U.S. and experiencing thoughts of suicide, call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988 or IMAlive at 1-800-784-2433. In the UK and Ireland – Call Samaritans UK at 116 123; in Australia – Call Lifeline Australia at 13 11 14; in other countries – Visit IASP or Suicide.org to find a helpline in your country.

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This podcast is the audio companion to the Journal of Emerging Issues in Litigation. The Journal is a collaborative project between HB Litigation Conferences and the vLex Fastcase legal research family, which includes Full Court Press, Law Street Media, and Docket Alarm.

If you have comments, ideas, or wish to participate, please drop me a note at Editor@LitigationConferences.com.

Tom Hagy
Litigation Enthusiast and
Host of the Emerging Litigation Podcast
Home Page

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to the Emerging Litigation Podcast. This is a group project driven by HB Litigation, now part of Critical Legal Content and VLEX Company's Fast Case and Law Street Media. I'm your host, tom Hagee, longtime litigation news editor and publisher and current litigation enthusiast. If you wish to reach me, please check the appropriate links in the show notes. This podcast is also a companion to the Journal of Emerging Issues in Litigation, for which I serve as editor-in-chief, published by Fastcase Full Court Press. And now here's today's episode. If you like what you hear, please give us a rating. Yeah, so today we're going to talk about you because we're worried about you.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Frankly, you're a litigator. It's stressful. What are you doing, man? What are you doing with your life? This whole thing looked way better from a distance, or you're fine, but you just want to hear this anyway. So you've got demanding clients, of course, complicated cases, a lot of stuff to keep track of. You might have difficult colleagues, say, or difficult clients. You've got a lot of high billable hour requirements, maybe and, by the way, you need to drum up some new business and you got to help the marketing team. You got to get out there and You've got to get out there and write. You've got to get out there and speak. There's a lot to do. You might be competing for career opportunities and money and again, you've got the workloads. Anyway, you might be stressed, you might be frustrated, you might be unfulfilled. I promise this gets a lot more cheery.

Speaker 1: 1:48

Gary Miles is a success coach, author and former litigator. He knows what you're going through and he helps lawyers struggling, like maybe you, to find fulfillment and success in a career that you know they really thought was going to be a lot more fun. Frankly, he's been described as inspiring, motivational, wise, patient, thoughtful. He's an exceptional listener. They hear nothing about his dance chops. Gary coaches clients through issues and disputes that are holding them back. He wants to help them achieve their dreams. So there you have it. He's an experienced trial attorney, trained mediator. He was managing partner of Huseman Jones and Miles for three decades. He doesn't shy away from difficult situations and that's borne out by his volunteer work as a marriage mentor and couples counselor. Good God, gary assures us there is always a solution Always.

Speaker 1: 2:48

And I welcome back to the Emerging Litigation Podcast, sarah Lord, considered by her friends and colleagues as a terribly competent ray of sunshine. Sarah is a former practicing attorney with a decade of experience in data analytics. She applies her experience in law firms and businesses to address the cultural and practical barriers to diversity in law. She applies her experience in law firms and businesses to address the cultural and practical barriers to diversity in law. She applies her talents to support the creation of value through legal operations and putting clients first. Most recently, she was managing director of Legal Metrics, where she led a team of experts focused on providing the tools to support data-driven decision-making in legal operations and closer collaboration between law firms and clients through the use of automation and the standardization of industry metrics. Sarah earned her JD from New York University School of Law. And now here's Sarah Lord's interview with attorney and coach Gary Miles, and because I can't help myself, you'll have to hear me there toward the end. Hope you enjoy it.

Speaker 2: 3:53

Welcome to all you podcast people in podcast land and welcome to Gary Miles, our guest for today.

Speaker 3: 4:00

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here, Sarah.

Speaker 2: 4:03

So let's dive straight into the deep end, gary. We continue to read about attorneys who are struggling to find joy and satisfaction in their careers, leading to mental health issues, addiction and even suicide. So what happens after swearing in that leads so many of us to feel drowned and defeated?

Speaker 3: 4:24

Well, I think it happens Two problems. The one is we accept the first job we get. We're the best job. Best is defined by most money, most prestige. But we haven't really taken a step back and thought what do I want to do? Where do I want to be? Where do I want to work? What kind of people do I want to work with? Do I want to have independence and autonomy? And so sometimes we take this job that we think it's going to be just fantastic Can't believe I got that offer and then it's not at all in alignment with what we were actually looking for. And so we're there three years in and we get frustrated. Why did I pick that job? It's not what I want and it comes down to expectations. We think when we get this job after working so hard in college and law school and interviewing all our problems are going to be solved, and they really aren't. There ends up being more stress, more competition than maybe we ever envisioned competition that maybe we ever envisioned?

Speaker 2: 5:28

Is the stress and competition in the legal environment necessary? I certainly have heard over the course of my career that the pressure cooker environment, the backstabbing, the competition, is necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. What's your?

Speaker 3: 5:45

perspective on that. No, I don't think it's necessary at all. That's my opinion. I have always looked at the world as a world of plenty. I don't think we need to compete for the one or two clients who are out there fight tooth and nail to get them. I think we can all do well in law school. We can all get good jobs. We don't have to worry about beating out the person sitting at the desk next to us to get that job. So I don't think it's necessary at all, and I think a lot of other folks feel that way and they leave that pressure cooker and some start their own firms. They create the culture they want, culture they want. They may create a firm where work balance, life balance is critical. Folks are allowed to have flexible hours and we can make the law practice whatever we want it to be, and I don't think we have to buy into the fact that that's necessary.

Speaker 3: 6:38

I did litigation. A certain amount of competition is inherent in litigation, because it's going to be me against you. One of us is going to win, one of us is going to litigation because it's going to be me against you. One of us is going to win, one of us is going to lose. You can't change that. But we can do that in a way that is professional and courteous and doesn't need to be as competitive as it is that are primary when it comes to practicing law that, if resolved, could help litigators specifically recapture the joy in their careers.

Speaker 3: 7:12

Well, the one struggle so many lawyers deal with is a billable hour model. I think it creates so much stress for so many. It creates conflicts between the law firm and the attorney. I'm being told to bill more hours. I don't have enough work to fill those hours, or my work's only being measured by how many hours I bill. They don't really appreciate who I am or the quality of my work. It creates conflicts between the law firm and the client. But for litigators specifically, the main thing is what our mindset is.

Speaker 3: 7:43

I tried cases for 45 years and in the beginning I was so obsessed with whether I was going to win or lose, and specifically whether I was going to lose. I expected to win, but I worried so much about losing. It just created this whole pressure throughout the case, throughout preparing for it, and we worry about what other people will think about us. What will my client think if I lose? What will Sarah think of me if I lose? What will other people around me? How will they judge me? And all those thoughts are so unproductive, create stress and make us more likely to fail rather than succeed.

Speaker 3: 8:17

The analogy I always give is I play golf. I play golf a lot and if I'm heading over the water and I think, what's it mean if I hit into the wooder, how will that affect me? How will that affect my score? I'm going to hit in the wooder because it's what I'm starting to obsess about. But if instead, I think I like trying cases, I like taking depositions, I'm going to prepare my opening, I'm going to prepare my witnesses.

Speaker 3: 8:41

That's fun, I'm good at that. So I encourage trial lawyers to think about the process of what you're doing, think about how you're helping your client, but stay in the present, stay in the moment, stay in the preparation mode, stay in the being a lawyer mode and stay out of the future, because we don't know what the future will be. I had a good friend at my club who was a great tennis player and I said what is one thing that makes you so good? He says I don't care if I win or lose, I don't care, I just go out and play tennis. And that's such a great thought to have.

Speaker 2: 9:15

That's really difficult for litigators when you're approaching these cases that have a significant impact on your career, have a significant impact on your client to be able to step back and separate your own identity from the outcome. The outcome Since a lot of these cases are very high stakes even if they're not a lot of money, even if they're not a big public impact for the clients, they're huge, they're material, they're important. So if you are really looking to make that mental separation for your mental health purposes, for your ability to focus and be successful individually as well as professionally, are there certain recommendations you have for those litigators to sit down and really identify their primary struggles and what changes they may want to implement?

Speaker 3: 10:24

Sure. So in terms of their primary struggles. When I coach a client, I say what is it that causes you stress? What is it about your work, about someone you work with, about the kind of emails you get, about the kind of communications you get? What is it that makes you anxious and stressed? Is it worrying about the future? And that's the first step is identifying what is it in my life that creates anxiety or stress. And the next step is how do you feel when you feel stressed? What's the first thing that happens? Your heart races, you get sweaty, you get shorter breath. What is it? And then we can start unpacking that. So you're starting to feel stressed. You got that email. Okay, let's step back. Is that something you did to cause that? Is that the client being a client? Is that something you can change?

Speaker 3: 11:13

And I encourage my clients to accept those things in their life. They can't change. I just coached someone who has a very difficult client. He will always be a difficult client. Instead of getting frustrated that this difficult client is difficult, just know he's difficult and get through it and do your work. And if you don't want to represent him, don't represent him. That's your choice. But if you're going to represent him. Don't get mad at him for being difficult.

Speaker 3: 11:41

So I think a lot of it comes down to acceptance of those things we can't change, being mindful of how we're feeling, and the one thing we have power over is our thoughts. You know, if I'm kicking field goals for the Ravens and I'm Justin Tucker and I got a 64 yarder to win the game, if I'm thinking the whole game rides on my right foot, I'm probably not going to do so well. So he has trained his mind to just focus on his technique. The 64 yarder practice is the same as the one with three seconds left in the game and we can do the same. But it takes practice and it takes work to really change what we think about.

Speaker 2: 12:16

So if I'm struggling and I am identifying what I find to be most stressful, what I find to be most anxiety inducing, determine what I can change, what I can focus on and what actions I need to take. That impacts not just me and my client. It impacts the professionals around me. So when it comes to addressing this in the workplace, is there still a stigma around that? Are there certain practices that can help somebody maneuver those relationships effectively?

Speaker 3: 12:56

I don't think there's any stigma about what you just said. If we change how we think I mean, if we're working in a law firm with 100 lawyers and a certain number of partners and some difficult staff that work under us there are going to be some frustrating people there right, there have to be in the world, because none of us are perfect and I've learned that when I focus about what's wrong in someone around me which I used to do all the time it's a very frustrating place. But if, instead, I focus on what they're good at, it's a better place. And there's no stigma about how I think, about people changing my thoughts, being a better listener, being more empathetic. There's no stigma to that. The only stigma that people fear is when they're really struggling and need support, and sometimes people are afraid to reach out for it because they're afraid then I'll be judged as being inadequate or not good enough or a failure.

Speaker 2: 13:49

So if those are stressors for them, if they're concerned about being able to have those conversations at work. The more senior you get, the more control you have over your environment. But let's say you aren't at a partner level. You're an associate. You're a senior associate, maybe a junior partner, and you are feeling anxiety and you need the buy-in from the rest of your team to make some changes to your, your workload, your process, your approach. How, how do you do that when you're afraid that even raising the issue is going to put a black mark on your name.

Speaker 3: 14:35

Well, the one suggestion I always have is find someone outside the firm you can talk to about it, so you really process what's going on and you make the right choice. That's what I found with the clients I work with, where I mentor them, where they feel most grateful they have someone to talk to about those circumstances and they can help to determine the appropriate response. Appropriate response may be it's OK, it's no big deal. I was obsessing about something that's not that important, it doesn't really impact me. Or it may be this is really a big deal and I need to say something. Or it may be even if I say something, it won't go well.

Speaker 3: 15:12

I need to maybe look at a different environment in which to work, but having someone outside the firm you can talk to, because one of the biggest problems all lawyers have is this feeling of being disconnected. We work in a law firm with a lot of lawyers, but we're afraid to really be open and genuine with them because we don't want to be judged. We don't want the managing partner to think we're not good enough. So the struggles we're having we often struggle in silence and that just makes it so much worse to struggle in silence.

Speaker 2: 15:42

And I certainly know many attorneys practicing in law firm environments who feel like whenever they try to make a change, if they ever try to address some of their stressors get a little bit of support.

Speaker 2: 16:00

They get told that they are failing in their career, they're not pulling their weight, they're not doing everything that is expected of someone in that position in that firm. And the larger the firm is, the more prestigious it is, the more that can feel overwhelming in the sense that you're getting it from all sides. You know, in a smaller firm you certainly can have the same kind of pressure and the same kind of culture, because they're frequently populated by people who grew up in bigger environments and brought that culture with them. But I think in a smaller firm there's a feeling of you have a few more options. Right, you can leave a smaller firm, go to another firm and there's less of that shadow that comes with you. But if you're at one of the top firms in the country and you're struggling and you're leaving that environment, it can feel like the whole world is now aware that you aren't a good fit, because you need a little more attention, you need a little more support, you need to carve out a little more space.

Speaker 3: 17:25

Do you have any views on that? Well, I think there's a lot of truth in what you said, except I would. If I was working with that individual, I'd work with them to change their mindset. Maybe you weren't a fit for that big firm, but so what? That's not who you are, and you may not even want to be who the person has to be to be happy there. Maybe it's more important for you to have some independence and some autonomy and some time to go out and play golf or listen to music, whatever it might be. Maybe your family's more important. Maybe you want to choose your own path, create your own culture. So that's okay. I would encourage, I would work with that person, help them see. It's okay that you aren't a fit there and maybe that's what it's supposed to be and there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 3: 18:09

You know, I graduated number one in my law school class. I clerked in federal court. I never worked in big law. I never worked in big law. I wanted. I'm not sure exactly what my thought process was at the time, but I think I realized I'm probably more independent and more entrepreneurial and I went into a small firm. I ended up owning and managing it for 30 years. I think that's who I was supposed to be. I couldn't fit into someone else's box. That isn't who I am and that's okay, even though on the surface, someone might say why didn't you go with the biggest firm in Baltimore which I could have done instead of going to the small firm that not many people have heard about? I think that's where I was supposed to be.

Speaker 2: 18:48

Yeah, and that's certainly difficult for attorneys who have come out of law school and gone to a large firm where the workload is overwhelming and they're running themselves into the ground. I have found that a lot of those individuals can't even find the time to think about what they want. They were just chasing the prestige, chasing the paycheck in order to pay off the student loans, in order to check all of those boxes. And when you sit down with them and say, you know, in order to check all of those boxes, and when you sit down with them and say, well, what are you looking for, they don't really have an answer because they haven't what they need. And how they respond in different situations and where they feel comfortable and all of these introspective is that a word?

Speaker 3: 19:50

Yes, introspective is a word. Okay, good, all good words, you're right on.

Speaker 2: 19:54

All right, awesome. So it seems like that really is key to the kind of job satisfaction and well-being that I know you've been focused on in your role as a guide, as a coach.

Speaker 3: 20:14

I think you're right and I would say to that person, if we ever spoke and he or she said I don't have the time to do that, that's the problem, actually. That points up with the problem is you don't think you have two hours to find some time for yourself to sit outside on the patio on a Saturday morning and reflect about what's important to you and where you want to be Saturday morning and reflect about what's important to you and where you want to be. And that's something that has to change, because there's no more important client in our practice than ourselves. And I always think, however you look at it, that we should carve out two hours a week minimum and make ourselves our best client, give ourselves the attention we give to our best client, because we deserve it. I mean, it's our life.

Speaker 3: 21:01

We're not owned by the firm. It's our life and we're responsible for the choices we make and we're never stuck. We have choices. We can be who we want to be and be where we want to be, doing what we want to do, and particularly if we're in a big firm, we obviously have a great reputation, develops a good skill set, did well in school. We can create our own world and make it exactly what we want it to be If we're willing to take that chance to do it. Sometimes it's easier to just be stuck and be a victim of that, but it takes courage and some work to really figure out what we want and then make it happen, and some work to really figure out what we want and then make it happen.

Speaker 2: 21:39

So if I want to carve that two hours out but even the thought of that is anxiety inducing Do you have any recommendations on how to baby step my way into that Ways to do it? That might reduce some of the anxiety that I'm having just thinking about it.

Speaker 3: 22:06

Well, I encourage all my clients to literally plan each day. So plan on Monday what we're going to do and when we're going to do it. But when it comes to carving time out for ourselves, carve two hours out on a weekend and don't take calls, don't take texts from the office. If we're married, let our spouse know. You know I'm going to do some reflection and maybe the spouse wants to be part of it. But it also really helps to have a third party help with that, because sometimes we really have a hard time figuring ourselves out and one of the problems I've seen is so many of us limit our future based on our past experiences.

Speaker 3: 22:41

I remember when I was starting my podcast. I have my own podcast. I remember starting and I thought I could never do that. You know I'm 66 years old. Who starts a podcast at 66? And I realized why my coach had me say you can do that. I mean you'd be great at it and I couldn't see myself for that. And so often we can see in other people a future that often they can't see in themselves, because our vision my vision for you isn't constrained like yours is by your past experiences, and we often we look at our past. We look at our failures, our obstacles, our limitations I'm not very good at, you know, I'm not very good at public speaking or whatever it might be and so we can create a world and make it whatever we want to be, and just have a vision of what we can be.

Speaker 2: 23:27

That sounds lovely, and it sounds lovely to be surrounded by people who are helping you in that mission, right? So having a network of individuals who can relate to what you're going through and can help you think through possibilities and help flag your skills as well, like what you are good at, because sometimes we have our own skew that may not be reflective of reality or may no longer be reflective of reality, and having that network sounds like it's a great way to break through some of those barriers.

Speaker 3: 24:11

Yes, it can be. And we talk a lot about imposter syndrome and it's crazy how many lawyers don't see themselves as being the successful, competent, intelligent, experienced lawyer they really are. They're the only ones who don't believe in themselves. And that's how having a good friend, a professional colleague, a mentor, someone who can really say look, you are that good, look at what you've done. And I find that with my clients, all the time they keep saying I'm afraid I'm going to screw up. I say, well, how many times have you screwed up in the past? That was a problem. They almost never have. They're very, very good and very successful. But we're our own worst enemies. I'm so hard on myself. My wife drops something. I said that's okay, We'll clean it up. I dropped something. It's the end of the world. What a clod. How could you do that? The way we talk to ourselves is so much harder than we talk to our spouse, our child, our best friend, our dog. It doesn't matter, we're so hard on ourselves.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Yeah, that is an excellent point. That voice in our head can be pretty critical when it's talking about our own failings isn't the right word our own areas of growth really to track it and see where we are and how we're doing, and give ourselves kudos as well. How often do you stop and say I did a really good job?

Speaker 3: 25:36

Right.

Speaker 3: 25:36

You know, we don't really do that, and that's an important thing, what you just said. We should celebrate our wins, and that's something I have, someone my clients do every day. Write down, you know, often we go to bed and we're stressed, we're worried about how this will work. We're worried about that next email. What's going to the client going to say tomorrow, which we? What's going to the client going to say tomorrow, which we have no power over, when we're trying to go to sleep? So I say, instead, celebrate your victories. What worked out well today? Who did something nice to you? Who did something helpful? What good ruling did you get? What work did you get accomplished? Write down a list of your victories for the day, the things you did or the things that were done for you.

Speaker 2: 26:14

That were something you have to be grateful for, and I'm a big fan of thinking about things incrementally. So when I'm thinking about two hours a week, if that feels overwhelming, starting with a half hour and saying oh, the world didn't end. I wasn't around for a half hour, I turned my phone off. That's terrifying. And yet at the end of the half hour everyone was still alive. You know nothing, nothing dramatic happened that couldn't have waited that. And then kind of pulling that and saying, okay, well, let's try an hour and let's let's step it up so that you're not spending two hours that first time, just in in a panic, right, you're, I've carved it out, but I can't do anything productive because I'm too worried about what I'm missing, right?

Speaker 3: 27:01

And you make a good point. It doesn't have to be a two-hour block in a week. It could be 30 minutes four times a day and really I think it's a great practice to wake up in the morning and before we rush to get dressed and get our coffee. Some of us are late getting our coffee today, but and get our coffee. Some of us are late getting our coffee today, but before we get our coffee.

Speaker 3: 27:18

You know why not spend 15 minutes just in reflection? You know, what do I want to get done today? Where am I? What could I do better? What am I grateful for? Just a little bit of mental reset before we start our day, and maybe that means we get up 15 minutes earlier. But if it's at 6 30 in the morning, no one's going to miss us, you know. Or whatever time it is, just take that time. Go outside for a walk if the weather's good, or sit out on the patio or in your kitchen or on your lounge chair and just be quiet. And we do get addicted to our phones, like you made a joke, but it's very hard to turn off our phone. Turn it off, put it aside and just be present with ourselves enough.

Speaker 2: 28:00

Put it aside and just be present with ourselves. I also just one of my practices. I started a couple of years back, when it was clear that I'd be working from home for a while. I bought an espresso machine for my cappuccinos, decided that that was more affordable than more affordable than you know buying one, buying cappuccinos every day.

Speaker 2: 28:20

So, and I have to say that the 10 or 15 minutes it takes to make the coffee, when I'm doing it myself and I'm steaming the milk myself and I'm grinding the beans myself it is it can feel like a lot of time, but it's like mental downtime. It's a 15-minute window for me to just reflect on what's coming. The rest of the day I am making the coffee effectively on autopilot and I can let my mind settle and prepare for what's coming in the next step. So I feel like sometimes it's not just about setting aside time to stop and think. It's about building extra time into some of your daily tasks. Don't rush through everything in order to get to the office as soon as possible to do all of the tasks that are that are on your backlog, cause there will always be a backlog, there will always be something else to do, there will always be more and instead building in that little bit of luxury for whatever that is for you to get, that, that mental break throughout your day.

Speaker 3: 29:35

And if I would add to that, you were kind of talking about your morning routine, and so was I, and that's so important. But during the day is important too. Analogizing to sports. If I'm running a marathon, I don't train for a marathon by running a marathon seven days in a row before that, because my body would break down and I'd be burned out. If I'm trying a case for next week, if I spend the first seven or eight days before it working 12 hours a day on that case, I'm going to be burned out, I won't be sharp, I won't be on my best game and we take a timeout in a basketball game so the players can have a break and we need to take a timeout during our day. I have found folks are so much more productive when they actually take time off during the day and you say well, how could that be? I lost 45 minutes taking off those three 15-minute breaks. You will be more productive, you will get more done.

Speaker 2: 30:29

So, Tom, what do you have to add to this conversation? I know you have thoughts.

Speaker 1: 30:34

I couldn't help but think Think of the tie into Buddhism. I have to think you have some influence from that, gary. I don't know, but the whole thing about dwelling on the past and Buddhism, it's like the past has to take care of itself.

Speaker 3: 30:48

Right.

Speaker 1: 30:50

And then if you're dwelling in the future, you're catastrophizing, you're worrying. It's not terribly productive. That's not to say you don't learn from the past, you don't plan for the future, but you're talking about being in the moment. I going through some stress myself. When I was starting my business and there was all this calamity, I finally had to put something on my desk that said what can you do right now? And then you talked about the, about spending the time reflecting on yourself, your career. What kind of questions are people asking themselves in those kind of moments that you would recommend? What's that self-conversation like?

Speaker 3: 31:30

What are my most important values? What is it that is most important to me in my life? What can I do as a lawyer that I would really, really enjoy doing? What would light my fire? What would I have fun doing? What does that look like? Is it big firm, small firm, my own firm, government, working for some public interest group? What does that look like? Where do I physically want to be? Do I want to be in a city, a town, virtual? What kind of people do I want to work with? What kind of clients do I want to represent? What kind of law do I find fun and invigorating instead of boring and mundane? Those are the kinds of questions that I help my clients walk through to really chart what they want their path to be.

Speaker 3: 32:15

And maybe they end up saying I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. I just need to change the way I look at it. I need to stop making myself a victim. Or they may say this isn't what I want at all. I've been trying to put this round peg in the square hole and it doesn't work. I don't fit here, that's okay. That's okay. Don't worry about being judged by other people. They think it doesn't matter. What matters is if we're happy, fulfilled and satisfied.

Speaker 1: 32:46

Yeah, that mindset changes and I know you're not saying it's easy, because it can be a lifetime of thinking one way that, oh, I'm a failure, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do that. It occurred to me one day. My sister-in-law is a social worker, counselor, and she was talking to me about affirmations and me I just think my default is oh, that's ridiculous, those are silly. And then it occurred to me it's like well, certainly, telling myself negative things about myself works, so why might not the reverse also work?

Speaker 3: 33:20

Well, affirmations are a good process and we do fill our mind with negative thoughts about ourselves. So you're right, why not look at ourselves as successful and worth it and deserving? But the other thing I encourage people to do is to write a self-image of yourself. As you see, you now Strengths, weaknesses. Who are you as a lawyer, as a person, as a family member? And in the ideal, perfect world? If you could have any image of yourself you want, what is your ideal self-image of yourself? What does that look like? And that's the goal where we try to get to, and so often we find we're actually a lot of those things already, but we don't give ourselves credit for it, or we may find this is what I see myself doing. This isn't the ideal me to be doing what I'm doing now.

Speaker 2: 34:10

So thank you again, Gary. I really appreciate you coming on.

Speaker 3: 34:14

Well, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you and Tom Really appreciate you coming on. Well, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you and Tom and I thank you guys for all you do to help make the world of litigation a little bit better, to help lawyers be more informed and to have resources that they can tap into to answer some question or some need of their own.

Speaker 1: 34:34

That concludes this episode of the Emerging Litigation Podcast, a co production of HB Litigation, critical Legal Content, vlex Fast Case and our friends at Lost Street Media. I'm Tom Hagee, your host, which would explain why I'm talking. Please feel free to reach out to me if you have ideas for a future episode and don't hesitate to share this with clients, colleagues, friends, animals you may have left at home, teenagers you've irresponsibly left unsupervised, and certain classifications of fruits and vegetables, and if you feel so moved, please give us a rating. Those always help. Thank you for listening.