Voice of Thunder
A passionate podcast discussing topics of faith, family, and church. We believe God's Word is powerful!"Is not my Word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" (Jeremiah 23:29)
Voice of Thunder
Slavery & the Bible with Jonathan Lee
Are you ready to challenge your understanding of a hotly debated topic? Join me, your host, Lance McKenzie, and my guest, Jonathan Lee, as we dissect the contentious issue of slavery in the Bible and its stark contrast with slavery in the American colonies. We debunk common misconceptions and discuss the topic in depth.
Together, we voyage through the different forms of slavery prevalent in biblical times, highlighting their significance and the importance of grasping the original context. Our conversation on Paul's teachings about slave treatment and his revolutionary message within the Roman Empire paints a vibrant picture of the New Testament's portrayal of slavery. As we break down the treatment of Hebrew and foreign slaves in the Bible, we challenge the widespread belief that non-Hebrew slaves suffered harsher treatment, providing evidence from scripture and historical research.
Our exploration doesn't end with human attitudes towards slavery. We dive into God's view on slavery, considering how it relates to the gospel, and offering a new perspective for both skeptics and believers. We end our enlightening conversation on a note of hope, discussing the ultimate freedom found in the gospel and the importance of holding steadfast in our faith. Join us in this engaging discussion that promises to challenge your perceptions and expand your understanding.
Welcome to Voice of Thunder, where we declare the earth-shattering truths of God's word about culture, family and church. I'm your host, lance McKenzie. Welcome back to Voice of Thunder. Today I've got Jonathan Lee, a friend of mine, on the podcast. We're going to be doing this podcast together. Him and I have been working a lot on this subject. I appreciate him being here. He's from Savannah Georgia. He's a preacher and evangelist. He helps at his church in Hinesville. He works there at the church. He's a golly young man. I appreciate him being here and being willing to help me. We've been friends here for a little over a month, jonathan two months.
Speaker 2:About two months.
Speaker 1:We really hit it off. We talked about the Bible and the Lord and kind of got the same heart about stuff and decided to do a podcast together. Thank you for coming on the show, Jonathan, and for being here. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, I appreciate you. Brother. It's good to be here today, good to be with you and be able to do this podcast with you. Sure is a blessing. Like you said, it was really good getting to meet you and your wife when y'all came around our area evangelizing and staying for a little bit. I do believe it was about maybe two months and some change ago, not sure, time tends to fly by and we lose track of that kind of stuff, but it's been a blessing to know you and minister alongside you and in a service or two. We sure do appreciate that, appreciate everybody listening today. Just a little background on me. I don't have any sort of formal education. I've just been a Christian for about seven years now and just studying. I do preach, I tinder it and teach Sunday school at the local church and go and minister at other local churches whenever I get asked. Not a whole lot of credentials, just a young man who loves the Lord and likes to study the word Awesome.
Speaker 1:We need more of you. I'm telling you. We need more men of God who will be in the Word and strive to be faithful. Today we're going to be talking about a kind of a touchy subject. I actually had a person at work really come up to me and asked me about this subject and began to question me on what the Bible said about it. Maybe as a listener out there you've had this.
Speaker 1:This guy came up to me and said hey, how can I believe in the Bible when the Bible supports slavery? I really had somebody at work ask me and one of those questions that just kind of floors you. I was just totally out of the blue. I hadn't studied a lot on it and prepared for that. I tried to give as best a response as I could and try to send him something to watch as well, but I just really wasn't prepared. I was kind of blindsided by that.
Speaker 1:How can a loving God support slavery? He took me through the scripture in Leviticus 25, verse 45. It says, moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall you buy, and of their families that are with you, which they beget in your land, they shall be your catch this your possession. You shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for possession. They shall be your bond men forever. But over your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor. So how can a good, loving God allow slavery people to possess or own other people and even to encourage Christian slaves to respect their masters? In 1 Peter 2, 18, it says servants be subject to your masters with all fear, not only the good and gentile but also the unjust. How can a good, loving God command that? I mean, how can a good, loving God encourage slavery like in the American colonies?
Speaker 1:If you go look at the slave code of the early American colonies, it is. It's terrible. That code was just awful. The slaves were considered property, not people, and they retreated as such. These slaves could not testify in court against the white in the early American colonies. They could not make contracts. They could not leave the plantation without permission. They couldn't strike a white person, even in self-defense. Again, this is colonial America. They could not buy and sell goods. They could not own firearms. They couldn't gather without a white present. The killing of a slave was almost never regarded as murder and the rape of a slave was treated as a form of trespassing. I mean just awful. And so we're going to start off with that question, kind of a loaded question. But, jonathan, how can a loving God allow slavery like in the American colonies?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:So, brother Lance, the first thing I'd like to do here is kind of set some boundaries, so to speak, and just note that this question kind of, like you said, it can be a loaded question, just depending on who's asking the question and why. So there's typically, you know, two kinds of people that are asking this question. You've got the first person who is, you know, likely an atheist or an unbeliever, and there are people who are trying to prove Christianity false. They're arguing against Christianity in the case for Christ and then you have a second person who would be asking this question and that person is the kind that is genuinely curious about slavery in the Bible and, you know, wanting to know why it's there and what we should think about this and how to understand it properly. And so I want to address those two people first. And to the first person that I mentioned, who's trying to prove Christianity false, the question is really a strawman, because that person is trying to attack Christianity and attack God and use slavery as an attempt to attack God. But God's not guilty of slavery, man is, because slavery is an institution created by man, not God. So in answering this question and the questions to come in the podcast, I want to lay the foundation in that we're not trying to absolve God from guilt of slavery. We're not the justifier of God. God is the justifier of man, and so just speak to that person for a moment. And then to the second person who is genuinely curious about this topic, about slavery and God's point of view on that and what scripture says. This podcast and us going back and forth here is going to be an attempt to accurately portray slavery in the Bible and how God actively addresses the issue of slavery, as we'll see throughout the scriptures and later on into what we would consider modern society. And so that's the two kind of people we're going to address here today.
Speaker 2:But to actually answer the question of how can a loving God allow slavery like we see in the American colonies? I've got four main points here that I would like to share this morning, and those four points are judgment, sanctification, grace and witness. Now, when we're talking about God allowing slavery, I want to make sure people understand that, since God has not been the cause of slavery, that man has been the cause of slavery, that does not mean that God cannot use slavery. So I just want to make that clear. But the first point is judgment, and we see that God uses slavery as a form of judgment, especially against his own people. More so severely. We see in the scriptures that the children of Israel are actually subject to slavery, I believe, more often than we see others subject to slavery, and so there's multiple occasions of that where God uses the bondage of slavery as a form of judgment over his people Egyptian slavery, assyrian slavery, babylonian slavery, there's there's several instances where his people are taken captive and that's a form of judgment that he casts on them for their disobedience towards God. So that's, that's a reality we see in the scripture.
Speaker 2:Now, sanctification is my second point, and and second Thessalonians, chapter one, verses three through six, when we see the scripture and I'll actually pull it up here real quick so that we can just briefly read it, because I want to make sure I give the correct context of what I'm about to say this is Paul speaking here, and he says we are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is me, because that your faith grow exceedingly and the charity of every one of you all toward each other abounded, so that we ourselves glory in you and the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which he also suffer being it is the righteous thing, with God, to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And so what we see here in the scripture actually is that persecution and this could be in the form of slavery is actually a token of the righteous judgment of God toward his people, and persecution in the form of slavery is a way that God uses suffering to actually sanctify his people. And I know, brother, from some things you've told me and things I've told you, that when we have to go through situations in life just apart from slavery, you know nothing, obviously to that link. But whenever we do endure some sort of suffering in life that it does sanctify us, it causes us to have to rely upon God more and shows us our need for the Lord. So that's the second way.
Speaker 2:Third way is grace. God's grace is sufficient for his people and his strength is made perfect in weakness. So the picture that we get here is not that slavery in itself is a good thing, like we said before, but that God takes what the devil and the world and the flesh is meant for evil and turns it for good for those that love him and even those who don't at times. So this is a really good point here would be that Joseph, you know when Joseph is sold into slavery and this is will address us a little bit further on but when Joseph is sold into slavery and he ends up in Egypt, egypt is blessed because Joseph is there. So you know, we see where God really puts his grace on display towards the one he calls into this, into this kind of state and the one he uses in this state.
Speaker 2:And then finally, don't want to overdo it, but my last, my last point here and I got this over the evening, yesterday evening and this morning as I was studying a little bit more as his witness, and once again we'll just look back at Joseph that God uses Joseph as an example of a servant, being used as a witness. And while he was in Egypt, all of the land prospered. So you had to know that Pharaoh and all these people saw that once Joseph got there, that Joseph claimed his God to be the true God. You know Joseph served his God and that the people ultimately flourished while he was there, and so you know we use that as a witness to the unbeliever that you know God does use these circumstances and he does prosper and preserve his people through even the most adverse circumstances. So those are my four points of why God would allow slavery like in the American colonies, not that he approves of it, but that he uses it in a form of judgment, sanctification, grace and witness. So what do you think on all that, brother?
Speaker 1:I'm right on, right on board with you. I read something the other day that I really liked. It said that the devil has a plot, but God has a plan, and I really like that way of looking at it that you know, men might have a plot. His brothers had a plot to put them in slavery. Some of the horrific I mean it's absolutely horrific things that were done to slaves, that the devil used it and was trying to oppress men and hurt men with it, and that men used it to oppress other men. But God has a plan in all of that. He can squeeze out of no matter the situation. God can squeeze grace and hope and joy out of any situation. And I would say, in addition, that's my first part.
Speaker 1:My second response to that would be that to the atheist or the person that's questioning this, the skeptic and I'm trying to, I want to be charitable, that's not trying to be mean, but I feel like when you attack slavery again, I'm not trying to argue with them or hurt anyone's feelings, I'm just pointing out the fact that whenever you are coming against God and you are judging God, saying that God was not fair and how he acted in some way, you're cutting off the very branch that you're sitting on.
Speaker 1:You want to attack morality and you want to attack the idea of God doing this. How dare God do this? But you're attacking the one that gives our right and wrong. How are you going to say that this is right and wrong in another culture? You know why? Isn't it not a little we're going to talk a little bit like the culture, but aren't you a little bit intolerant of other cultures to say that it was wrong for them to have slaves, or for this or that? Actually, everything becomes without a God, without a higher authority than us. There is no right and wrong and you cut off the very branch you're sitting on.
Speaker 2:I guess that would caveat.
Speaker 1:My response to that would be you know where are you getting this right and wrong from? You're stealing from God to accuse God. And then, as well as I studied on this and kind of looked on it, it is a little bit of a loaded question. When people think slavery, they think of the American colonies type of slavery. But the Bible's version of slavery is radically different. Radically different and in fact it's not even fair to use the same word for slavery. It is unfair to try and call them the same thing and really it's an attempt to try and emotionally combat you, to make you emotionally respond to that, because they're so wildly different the Bible's version of what they call slavery and then what the American colonies did. They're so different you can't even use the same word. It's like a guy who works at Walmart as a door greeter saying he worked, and then the guy that worked down there in the mines for 12 hours he also worked. You can't really use the same word. We would usually say something like the guy down the mines, he worked hard, the other guy has worked. They're so different from each other it's really not fair to even call them the same thing.
Speaker 1:I just want to read a list of some of the regulations, because in the Bible there are regulations on how you treat a servant or slave. I want to read a list of these and you'll see, as we go through these, that they are radically different. American colonies treatment versus the treatment in the Bible of their servants or slaves is radically different. Can't even call them the same thing. So the first one we're going to look at I believe there's five of these and I'm going to go through these quick.
Speaker 1:First, if a man harms his slaves' face, the slave goes free. It's in Exodus 21, verse 26,. So much as an eye or a tooth is injured, that slave would go free. There was no restriction like that in the American colonies. You could beat a slave almost to death and there was no restriction. A second restriction or regulation was that if a slave was killed, the master was to receive capital punishment. That's Exodus 21, verse 20. The third one, the third restriction, is that a runaway slave was not to be returned to their master. That's in Deuteronomy 23, verse 15. I'm going to read it Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee. He shall catch this. He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place, which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it likeeth him best. And it goes on. It specifies thou shalt not oppress him. That's so radically different than what the American colonies had. It's not even fair. They call them the same thing.
Speaker 1:They had the entire underground railroad system as a way of trying to help slaves escape from their masters. It was hard. There were people that it was their job to return slaves and in the midst of all that you have people like Harriet Tubman I believe that's her name that she would help those slaves escape. Harriet Tubman would be living in Israel. She would have said shop in Israel, because you want to be in the place where a slave can run away and he's not to be returned to his master and he's not to be set back, In fact, to give him a place to live on top of that within the city gates and to not oppress him. It's so radically different than the American colonies.
Speaker 1:The fourth difference is that if a slave was raped, the man must marry her and she become his wife. He must protect, keep her and their children and be able to inherit the estates as any other woman. And that's the difference between that and you normally check with 22, 25 through 29. And let's say the man marries this woman and he doesn't like her or whatever, he begins to neglect her. And actually this chapter 21, verse 10, if a man married another woman and he began to withhold from her any food, it says Raymond, or duty of marriage, it says she. If he do not these things in the herd, then she shall go out free without money. Without having to pay money, she can go free.
Speaker 1:And so not only would the man be judged and punished for what he did to this woman, which is a horrible thing, but he would have to protect her, keep her, provide for her. She would be treated not as a concubine or a mistress, but she'd be treated as a wife, Protected, loved, kept, every need provided for, and if she felt like she's being neglected, she could walk out free of that relationship anytime she wanted, without having to pay money for her freedom, which is radically different than the way that they treat him. Again, you can't even call it the same thing as the American colonies. And then the last one, number five he who kidnaps a man, whether he had sold him or as he'll hold him, shall he put to death. And X is 21 16. That verse alone would have collapsed the slave trade of the American colonies.
Speaker 1:That verse on he who kidnaps a man, whether he sold him or so, holding him, shall he put the death. It was death penalty, capital punishment, to kidnap a person and that was their typical way they'd go and they'd kidnap these slaves and take them to America. That would not have happened If they had followed that verse. That slave trade would have collapsed. And I know I want to specify as well the way I know that it's different is that there's something called the slave Bible and you can look this up. It's history the slave Bible. This is the Bible they would give to their slaves that would come into the American colonies and they had to rip out parts of that Bible to make their slavery biblical. They had to rip it out to make their servantship or their slavery biblical. They took out several scriptures and go Google this he who kidnaps a man shall he put to death. They ripped that one out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course you should not turn over?
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course. Deuteronomy 23, verse 16, the one I read about a not returning a slave to his master. They ripped that one out. And the Galatians 3 28, where it says there's neither Jew nor Greek. Now they're bond or free. They ripped that one out.
Speaker 1:They did not want their slaves to have that in their Bible because they would realize that how they were being treated, it was not the way the Bible said to treat your servant or your slave, and that tells me that even they knew that what they were doing was wrong and they were still in rejection. So for anyone who comes and says why would God allow slavery in the American colonies? He didn't. He never endorsed that. It was wrong from the beginning. So that's kind of. After my research, that's what I kind of found and looked into that it is radically different and it probably good right now to define some terms when we talk about slave or servant at the beginning of this and define what we mean by that. So, Jonathan, when we talk about slave and the Bible, what do we mean by that? What is the Bible mean when it says the word slave? Because the meaning of words is important. People will manipulate words and change their meaning to fit their purposes. What does the word slave mean? The Bible.
Speaker 2:Amen. Yes, so we know we live in a society where people, like you said, they change words and this is outside of the context of someone being young and using slang but people literally just take words and completely disconnect them from their meaning to mean something else, to try and propagate some sort of agenda. So when we look at the Bible and I do want to preface with this just for a moment that I think the slave Bible, I think that was a wonderful little resource right there, and as we continue, I know that you have other external resources and I think that's a great thing. That will only strengthen us here, and as I move forward, I want to do my best to just stay where the scripture is and see how it stands for itself, and then your external resources, as we'll see, just support that even further.
Speaker 2:But the Bible only uses the actual term slave once, and that's found in the book of Jeremiah. Now that, of course, is according to the King James Version. That's just my preference there and so. But in that version of the Bible, slave is only used once. Now we have other terms, such as servant man, servant, woman, servant and bond servant. Now those are used over 500 times in total in the Bible.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's important to make sure that we're using the correct terms. So, really, when we're talking about this, servant is the word used in the Bible and it's used in a variety of capacities. So when we say servant, we don't just mean one thing wholesale. That's very important to note when studying anywhere in scripture, but especially on this topic, that a servant is used in a variety of capacities, in that it's not going to mean the same exact thing every time you read the word servant or man servant or bond servant or hired servant. So I mean you already see some distinction there. So what are some different types of slavery that you see in the scriptures, lance, and can you kind of flesh that out for us, brother Sure?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I do prefer this by saying as well. I looked a little bit at the word servant, slave of the Bible too. In Hebrew there is one word, there's ebed. I believe it's ebed is how you pronounce that it could be wrong, but there's one word and it is used for like four or five different ways and they're used, like you said, in a variety of contexts and words change depending their meaning changes depending on how they are used and where they are used. Kind of like, for instance, you have a fly in your pants, you fly in the sky and you have a fly in your suit. You have the same word but they change dramatically. They don't know where and how they're used and throughout the Bible you will see different contexts for how those words are used.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, you have the Egyptian slavery. That was a type of slavery and it was very harsh, very rigid and it had a long term effect on the Israelite people and how they treated their slaves and how they treated aliens and what they called aliens and foreigners, really just people who were not of Hebrew descent. How they treat them because of their treatment and bondage to Pharaoh had a long term effect. Then there's another type of slavery the Mosaic law given by Moses. In that slavery there is a difference in how a Hebrew and then a foreign slave are treated. There is a difference. They're both treated humanely, but there is a difference of treatment.
Speaker 1:And then in the New Testament you get into another form of slavery, the Roman form of slavery, which was harsh but also at times could be more gentle, just dependent on the owner and what they wanted to do. But again, it really depends on what you're talking about. When we talk about slavery you can't envision the same type of slavery for all of it. You have to. The context matters a lot on it. Jonathan, I wanted to ask you when did slavery start according to the Bible? Do we have somewhere in Scripture where it started? If you can fill us in on that?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:So this is something I did some studying on, actually, and once again, like I said, we can use some outside sources to kind of reference that we get from history when it does come to men being servants and stuff like that. But just for the sake of the biblical argument that we have here today, I want to note that we do not see a clear indication of when slavery or being a servant even begins in history. But we do have some possible points of reference. Some of them are speculation, where we do have one where we see a clear indication of people being bought and sold as servants. And so the first point of reference I'd like to note today is that it's possible that there were servants before the flood took place. And so here is one of those speculative instances where we don't have explicit evidence in Scripture, none that I know of externally here, of course, because we're talking pre-flood, so anything carried on would be word of mouth. Obviously. We're told that the thoughts of men in the days of Noah were continually evil, which also means that their actions were too, because sin begins with thoughts in the mind, in the heart. So if that's the case, then I would say it's likely that it's at least possible that even in this time there were men and women being used and abused as servants. But once again, that's a speculative thing, so we can't really grab that and hold on to it as far as slavery beginning. So.
Speaker 2:But a second point that I do want to note and this is where we get into scripture is that in Genesis 9 and 26, we see something take place in Noah and his family's lives where the sons see him naked in his tent and they go and they cover him up, and this is where Noah explicitly states that Ham's son Canaan so he had three sons Ham, Shem and Japheth but Ham's son Canaan, the one who saw him, would be cursed and be servant to his brethren. Now Noah explicitly states that. But remember, just like you were saying, brother, is that the word servant is used in multiple capacities. So this doesn't necessarily refer to slavery, like in the American colonies either. Like we said before, it just could be that they would be servants to those people and that would kind of develop the hierarchy in terms of work and jobs. So, but I do want to point to our last instance we have here, and this is Genesis 37 and 28. This is the account.
Speaker 2:Once again we're going back to Joseph. It seems to be a star here in the podcast today that Joseph is sold by his brothers as a servant to the Ishmaelites. So this is a place where we definitely see it's starting to take place, where people are being bought and sold as servants. So I know that, if nothing else from before, we can definitely put our flag in the ground here, so to speak, and say that servant ship slavery began here. But something I do want to point out once more, when we're talking about the difference between American colony slavery and Old Testament slavery, is that something worth noting? Here is the next time we see Joseph which is just like a chapter or two later, after he sold, he's become a prosperous man, and so I think that that speaks a whole lot about servant ship back in that day and how it wasn't exactly the way we picture it, as you've said. So tell me what you think about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's important to go back and always look at where something started from. You can tell a lot about a movement from where it starts. You can tell a lot about an institution or a company by where it starts, kind of where it grows out of, and I think it's kind of the same thing. When you look at this, you know you're going back and you're looking at these. Where is slavery started?
Speaker 1:The Bible, the kind of see God's attitude from the beginning and from the beginning, is never viewed as a positive thing. It's always viewed as something negative. It is always viewed as part of a messed up, broken world and a reality of a broken world. It's never viewed as something good. You know it's an act of judgment. It's Noah saying hey, you know you shall serve your brother. And again, we don't know what kind of servant ship is being talked about here. But the point is is that it's never viewed as something positive, whereas marriage and institution created by God is seen as something positive, something that's seen as something good and something that God supports and even created. But you never see God creating slavery. Man created, god regulated it. I think that's important to see that it's not, at least at the beginning of Scripture. We don't see anything that says, hey, god approves this, and I think that's important. Is there anything you think?
Speaker 2:That's very good. I didn't even I think that's a great point of view as far as the negative connotation behind it, especially there with Noah, I didn't, I didn't really pick that up like you did. I thought that's that's really good, how that Noah when he cursed his son, it definitely wasn't a good thing. So and once again, that's not to reference to like cruel and harsh servant ship, but it's still, like you said, is negative. It's viewed in a negative light and it's instituted by man but regulated by God. I think that's really good. Now there are a couple of things, not just in the Old Testament but in the New Testament, even brother, where we bump into some mentions of slavery, of being a servant, and one of those instances is where Paul is speaking, or namely he's writing, rather in a letter to the church, and he doesn't condemn slavery and he doesn't command the slaves to go free at this time. Maybe you want to speak to that a little bit, maybe point us to the scripture where we see that and tell us what's going on there. Sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:I do want to preface. You know we're talking again. We're talking about context is important. The type of slavery that Paul is dealing with is Roman slavery, which is a type of slavery that could be very harsh. It could be very generous, but it also could be very harsh to.
Speaker 1:The Romans were an odd people that could be really generous or really harsh, depending on their mood. And just in my research, what I read in my research was that the slaves were underneath the total control of their masters. If a master wished, he could have a slave executed while there was. This was frowned upon because it was seen as foolish, like a man burning his house down, and that's foolish. But it's his property. He can do with it whatever he feels If he wants to burn down. If I took a chair outside, I want to set on fire. You know my neighbors might think I'm crazy, but I have the right to do that. That was the view, and so you know why wouldn't Paul condemn that slavery?
Speaker 1:Or when you go and you look at the scripture, ephesians 6 and 9 is just one passage. There are other passages, but this is the one that stands out to me. Masters, do the same to them and stop your threatening. All right, he's speaking to Roman master. He's speaking to wealthy, influential men. He's speaking to power. He's speaking to men of authority, wow.
Speaker 1:It says stop your threatening, knowing that he, who is both their master and yours, is in heaven and that there is no partiality with him. I mean that's an unheard of in that society to call is from my research and from from why I looked up. It doesn't hurt up to call a social superior, to treat a social inferior equally and even treat him as a brother. I mean they treat them as brothers and sisters. They would eat at the same table.
Speaker 1:What when they had the big feast everybody would come to the same table. In the book of James, james commands hey, don't treat someone. If you have a rich man, come among you, don't treat him different than the poor man. I mean it's just unheard of. You know that's unheard of during that time period in the New Testament. In the New Testament you find no restrictions on spiritual gifts. It's not said, hey, you know this, you know if you can use a spiritual gift if you're a free person and you know you're this gender and this age. There's no restriction on spiritual gifts in the church. There's no restriction on those who are going to be pastors. There's no restriction on whether or not your slave or free, whether you're a free born or you're not, and that's unheard of.
Speaker 1:So Paul definitely does not endorse that version that Roman slavery. He definitely does not endorse and he condemns that form of slavery. He endorses them treating each other as brothers. But in answering the second part of that question, why didn't he command the slaves to go free? I mean, I get why he didn't, I get that he condemned it, but why didn't he just command the slaves to go free? Right, he's speaking for the Lord. Why didn't he just command the slaves Go free. And in answering that I want to say that, first, paul was a slave himself. He was a slave to Christ. Christ was his master and he had been given orders from the Lord and his orders did not include fixing society and involved fixing people. It was involved fixing people.
Speaker 1:He had a very different view of the world and his mission. Second, paul's view of the end of time and his belief on where history was headed, that history has a goal, history is running after a goal. His belief on history had an influence on his, the way he lived his life, now that the future affected how he lived now. It was not his job to fix society but to fix people for future society. That was Jesus's job. To fix people, that was Jesus's job to come back and to create a perfect world. It was Paul's job to get the people in this world ready for the next. It was his job to get them on the ark. It was not his job to try and fix society. This world is going to fall apart, but we're getting ready for another kingdom. There's another kingdom going to come. And I think also, lastly, there's just a practical side to this. It is very hard to preach the gospel when you're dead or in prison. It's really hard to preach the gospel when you're dead. It just is really hard to do that.
Speaker 1:The Romans greatly feared a slave revolt. This is something that throughout history has been true about especially oppressive slavery. There's a fear of slaves revolting and attacking. In fact, slaves in Rome were not allowed to wear the same color or same type of clothing. They didn't want the slaves to know how many of them there were, because they feared that they would rise up and overcome their masters. And so that is important to realize that if Paul had commanded the slaves to go free, rome would have slaughtered him. They would have slaughtered every Christian, because there is no way that they would have allowed this movement to continue If it had meant attacking or destroying the slave trade. So that's kind of my response to it. What do you think, jonathan? Do you have anything to add to that?
Speaker 2:Well, I do want to stop for a moment and give a big amen. You got two preachers in here talking and then you start talking about Jesus' job to fix us. I can't help but say amen to that, paul. I think he knew that it wasn't him doing the work, but it was Jesus and Jesus was just using him. But I do think it's interesting here that one thing you noted I did want to touch on this for a moment in the New Testament with the restrictions and stuff like that I think it is interesting that even in Paul's letters we see, when he talks about leadership, that those that would be judges and make decisions would be those in the church that were not regarded very highly, they were not esteemed very highly.
Speaker 2:So the lowly were chosen to make judgment decisions even in the church. Later on that we see. But that was something that kind of stuck out there to me in the moment while you were talking. But I do think, as far as Paul condemning slavery and commanding the slaves to go free, I think that the answer really is found. A good answer to this, anyways, is found in 1 Corinthians, chapter 7 and 22. And I'll read this here for you.
Speaker 2:And this is Paul once again talking to the church at Corinth, writing a letter, and it says for he that is called in the Lord being a servant is the Lord's free man. Likewise also, he that is called being free is Christ's servant. So I mean, you just hit the nail on the head, brother, when you're talking about Paul. He's a slave in a sense, or a servant in a sense himself. You know Paul. Here he's directing the focus off of the physical state of a man and onto the spiritual state of a man. Paul, he knew what the priority was, he knew what the mission was, and he was out there to get that done, and that was to preach the gospel and let people know that their spiritual state is what mattered. And he says here in the scripture you know, see, if you're a servant in the world, don't be concerned about that, because you're a free man in Christ. But if you're a free man in the world, recognize that you're a servant to Christ. So you know, we're made free in Christ and so therefore we serve Christ. And so I think Paul's focus here, just like you said, it's not his job to fix the world but to preach the gospel. And I'm right there with you, his focus isn't on social justice, even though that you know, that might come as a product of preaching the gospel and people being converted and believing on the Lord Jesus but the focus, ultimately, is on spiritual justice. Spiritual justice, and that's what God does Now.
Speaker 2:I do just want to add a quick note right here, and we'll touch on this later. But if you look down at the next verse, at 23, it says ye are bought with a price. Be not ye the servants of men. So this language that we see here I mean he's speaking in a language that's very clear when we're talking about buying and selling servants and he says you're bought, but not to be the servants of men. So he's not speaking out against, you know, being a servant in the sense of working to feed your family, obviously, but servant in terms of who is your God. So we'll touch a little bit on that later, but I think that that's just wonderful right there.
Speaker 1:I do want to add one thing. There is a scripture in Corinthians as well. You say in that reminder of this there's a scripture in Corinthians as well that says that you know for everyone to stay in the state they are. And he talks about marriage and he gets into being a slave. But he says to a slave he says if the opportunity comes to be free, then take it. So he definitely did not view it as like a caste type system. There are some, especially, I believe, among the Hindu religion. There were some views of you know, whatever you're born into, you're stuck there for life. You can't ever leave. That. And that was Paul's view. Paul's view was not, you know, caste system, you're just stuck in this place your whole life. He said no, if you have an opportunity to buy your freedom to get out of it in a way that was legal and lawful, then take it. So he did not view people as bound, so to speak, in that system. So I also wanted to point that out as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's awesome, and I'm remembering the scripture you're talking about, and I remember that he notes that you know if you're called by the Lord being a servant, then he says the phrase he uses in King James is care, not for it. So, in other words, don't be concerned about your social status, Don't be concerned about who you're having to serve here on the earth as far as to makings meat and stuff like that, because now you're serving God. So, yeah, just a wonderful addition there. Now, something that you did mention earlier when you were talking about the different types of slavery. You mentioned the Hebrew versus the foreign slave or servant. So can you maybe talk to us a little bit about that? The laws that were regulating the servants in scripture that we see from the Lord?
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah. So that's what you talked about is Leviticus, chapter 25, verses 45 to 46. And it says I'm going to read it here what we're going to find as we read this is we're going to find that there was a difference in how they treated a Hebrew versus a foreign slave. There was a difference in how they were treated, excuse me, and the laws governing them, and we're going to see that as we step into this. So it says verse 45, moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, I then show you by, and of their families that are with you, which they began to land, and they shall be your possession and you shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for possession. So that's what it says. You should take them as inheritance for your children so that you can pass these non-Israelite, these foreign slaves, down.
Speaker 1:The difference between a Hebrew and a foreign slave, a non-Hebrew slave, was that a non-Hebrew was a lifelong slavery, and they shall be your bond men forever, but over your brethren and children of Israel, you shall not rule one another with rigor. Now, someone might look at this and say well, this means that you can treat your foreign slave, your non-Hebrew slave, harsher than you can your Hebrew slave. And that's just not true. As you go through scripture, you'll find that first, there is no. The law does not make a distinction and it regulates slavery and regulates servanship. It does not make a distinction between hey, this is true, but only true for the Hebrews right, and it never says that it deals with them equally, so that there's never a distinction in scripture. So those laws regulating and prohibiting, for instance, if a slave runs away, that is true for either a foreign or a Hebrew. If a slave is a foreign or a Hebrew and he gets his eye or his tooth hurt, he's allowed to go free.
Speaker 1:God did not create a second set of rules for the foreigners. They're viewed as equal in the sight of God. Second, the Jews, throughout history did not make a distinction when applying the law about being a slave or being a servant between foreign or Hebrew slaves. So I know this is history, it's not the Bible, but it's interesting to see how did the people that received this law, the Jews, how did they interpret and apply it? And as you look into it, you'll find in the Talmud, you'll find that that's a Jewish. It's not a biblical document. It was created many years later by rabbis. But you'll find in that Talmud that there is one set of rules for Hebrew and foreign slave. They did not treat them any different. There's just one set of rules and number two during the rabbinic era.
Speaker 1:There's a certain time period of Jewish history called the rabbinic era, excuse me, that the slaves would be given one year to convert. They'd have one year kind of as a trial period. If you were bought by a Jewish owner, you had one year to test the waters and be like ah, do I like this Jewish thing or not? And if you chose to not convert, they would sell you to a non-Jewish slave owner. If you chose to convert, they would redeem you, they would buy you makes me wanna preach. They'd redeem you, they'd buy you and set you free. You'd be set free, wow. And so that shows that the way that they interpreted this was generous and for anyone who would say well, yeah, but you know they're gonna treat foreigners badly or whatever.
Speaker 1:I would just point you to there are a lot of scriptures in the Old Testament about treating foreigners well, and it's because they endured the slavery among the Egyptians that it forever etched in their heart and in their conscience how to treat those who were not of the same race or nation, nationality. So, for instance, leviticus, chapter 19, verse 33, if a foreigner dwells with thee in your land, you shall not mistreat him, for the foreigner that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one of the born among you, and thou shalt love him as thy self. For you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord, your God. So and that's just one verse, you can find a multitude out there, but it was.
Speaker 1:They viewed foreigners and they viewed those who were not of the same race or same descent. They viewed them as you should treat them as one of your own. You should treat them as love, as Christ said. The law and the prophets are summed up in this love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. That's exactly the heart of a law of God here. And so for anyone who'd say, well, yeah, they didn't treat him the same. Well, that's not the command of God. The command of God was to treat them as one of your own, so is there anything you wanna add to that?
Speaker 2:Jonathan, yeah, no, that's awesome, I mean, I'm right there with you. I think it's pretty clear in Leviticus 19, right there, that when God mentions that the Israelites were foreigners, you know, in the land of Egypt I think that's something that is really worth noting and highlighting there is that God mentions them being foreigners when he's talking about other foreigners. So, in other words, don't forget where you came from and don't forget what I've done to you and, like you said, do unto others. So I definitely agree with you on this one. I think that, bringing in those other references, like you said, though we don't find them in scripture, we do find research that does support this idea that even they understood you know, even though we don't have an eyewitness directly from that point in time anymore even they understood, through the passing down of traditions and laws, that the way that they would treat their servants was not in cruelty, and so I don't find any evidence of God approving harsh treatment towards anyone. You know, yes, not servants, not anyone.
Speaker 2:So there are some distinctions made, like you said, that do require a little more study and prayer and revelation, but I believe the point here is clear that God is not a respecter of persons when it comes to you know his children, you know the ones he chose versus those that he didn't. So, yeah, amen. But there is another crux, so to speak, or another question perhaps for the unbeliever or the one who is curious. And one of those distinctions I made earlier is that we do see in the scripture where God did allow lifelong slavery, and so why don't you speak to that also for a minute and tell us you know what you got there as far as that's a pretty hard one to tackle. You know lifelong slavery.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is really tough and you'll find that in Leviticus 25, verse 46, that they shall be your bond men forever, it says. And that is a tough one, it is a hard, you know, when we're looking at that, you know, especially when I first looked at it, I was like man. How do you answer someone?
Speaker 2:with that question.
Speaker 1:But as I kind of dug into it, I began to read some that kind of brought some clarity to it. You know I'm gonna answer kind of in three parts here, but the first part would be is that remember that if a slave ran away from their master they could go free. And if you, if you're God's goal, if God's goal was to create the slave machine like we had in the American colonies, if his goal was to create this massive slavery system, that would be the wrong way to go about it right, they would have all been free, so they would have all been free, they would have all ran away, and then you were commanded to give them a place to live, away from their master and basically shelter and protect them and hide them.
Speaker 1:So that very much shows you that if they ever were mistreated they could just run away. So in some ways it was semi voluntary. They could stay if they wanted to and if they were mistreated they could run away and start their own lives. That's the first part. The second part to that is to remember that the Jewish culture and the laws of God were very different when it came to owning land. And that has a huge influence, if you think about it.
Speaker 1:If I can't buy property and instead of a place to grow some corn or have some cows out there to milk and feed, if I don't have a way during that time period to make money and have a place to live, it would be cruel to just let me go. If I could not own a place and that was how it was in Jewish society Foreigners were not allowed to permanently own land. They could lease it, like rent it, but you could not permanently own land. So Leviticus 25, verse 23, talks about that, that the land shall not be sold forever, but the land is mine, for you are strangers and sojourners with me. So if someone was set free, they would not really be able to have a land of their own to build and raise a family, to grow crops, to make money. So that's something important too, that it would be somewhat cruel to let someone go free and then they basically be homeless.
Speaker 1:The third thing I wanna point to this is kind of getting to the theological side of it, but the third thing is that the law was not given to create utopia. I think sometimes we get this idea in our head that Moses' law, the goal of it, was to create a perfect society and that wasn't the. If that was the case, you don't need Jesus, right, you need Jesus because that law could not create perfect society, not because the law wasn't good or didn't have good in it, but because people aren't good If they're trying to build a house and you get crooked lumber. You'll never build a straight house with a crooked two by four.
Speaker 2:They just build a half Amen.
Speaker 1:And you know that you're the construction business. I'm sure you've had a deal with that. Yep, definitely. But you can't create a straight house or a straight wall with crooked lumber.
Speaker 1:And so the law was given, and you can see it in the New Testament. It was given to prevent lawlessness, to prevent immorality, but it was not the utopia, it wasn't the final goal, and you can see that in Jesus' teachings. Jesus said that Moses, for instance, in Matthew 19, he said that Moses gave you the right for a bill of divorcement, but in the beginning it was not so. In the beginning, god created male and female, and it was a lifelong marriage, one man, one woman, for life. So, and he said, because of the hardness of your hearts, again, crooked lumber crooked two by fours.
Speaker 1:Because of the hardness of your hearts, moses allowed this. That tells us something about the law. That tells us that God set the bar low for them. Yeah, but even then they stumbled and messed up. And so I think it's important to see that that Jesus is gonna come back and create a perfect utopia. That's not the job of the law, and there's a law stuff in the law that was given to regulate a time period of history, not given to create a perfect society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. The analogy with the crooked two by four is awesome. Working in construction, of course, the materials you use matter. You've gotta have a good foundation, obviously, or the whole house is gonna fall, and perhaps we could say that the law is like a two by four. That's straight for every person that is measured up to that. Compared to that, well, they're gonna look like a pretty warped and crooked two by four. It's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you definitely can't. I mean you just you can't build off of that. So you can't build off a sinful man, so there has to be another that comes along, namely the Lord Jesus, and so I think that the information you've given on this one is definitely valid and worth considering. Something that I noted was the ability for the foreigner to lease land but not own land. I could see that kind of as a means of protection for God's children over being overrun.
Speaker 2:You know, in Egypt, whenever the Pharaoh came along behind Joseph, that was something he was concerned about, because the children of Israel grew to be so big and prosperous that he became fearful of them, and so that might be God's way of kind of safeguarding from something like that and saying and perhaps it's a secondary safeguard because obviously don't do it because he said not to do it because the land's not yours to sell, it was given to you. But on top of that, if you can't sell the land, then therefore you can't be overrun by foreigners coming in and buying up the land for whatever reason. So, but I just wanna personally add in right there yeah, so I think that's pretty interesting, just to add in right there. On the end, though, that the lifelong servant was optional for the owner.
Speaker 2:You know the owner it doesn't seem like, had to keep that servant for an inheritance. You know, at any point that servant could be made free, like you said, or that servant could run away, or just a wide variety of options there. But do notice this that in Leviticus 25, let me pull it up right here in verse 47, I thought this was very interesting, looking over it also. 25, verse 47, this one speaks about a sojourner becoming rich in the land and it says and if a sojourner or a stranger wax rich by the and thy brother dwelleth by him, wax poor and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee or to the stock of the stranger's family, after that he is sold, he may be redeemed again, one of his brethren may redeem him.
Speaker 2:But the main point that I wanna make here in verse 47 is the potential of the foreigner becoming wealthy, yes, in the land where they could also be a lifelong servant, and so it's possible that those that were qualified I'll say it that way, I reckon for the lifelong servitude could be bought by a foreigner that was not a lifelong servant and ultimately ended up free. So a bunch of different options there. So I think that that's a good way to look at it well rounded and it kinda helps us deal with that issue when we struggle with it. So Jonathan.
Speaker 1:So what does God think about slavery? What is his view on slavery? How?
Speaker 2:does.
Speaker 1:God feel about it? That's kinda the bottom line. That's kinda the question we've been getting to. How does God feel about slavery?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've uh, that's kind of where we've been going kind of circling around this question, because ultimately, that's what everybody wants to know. The unbeliever, as we said before, wants to see how we're gonna justify God in this case, whereas the the curious believer, or the curious unbeliever even, you know, is really trying to find out. All right, bear bones. What is God telling me about slavery? You know, yes or no, right or wrong, that kind of deal. So this is really where the rubber meets the road. And so what does God reveal to us in his word about himself concerning the issue of sleep? Well, in order to best answer that kind of question, we don't need to look at the topic of slavery or or being a servant itself, but we need to see what God thinks about man, because Slavery is an institution that involves human beings. So, really, what does, what does God think about the human being? Is the question at hand, and so, based on scripture and the Genesis account, we know that every man, every woman and every child is made in the image of God, and, because of that fact, that means that every man, woman and child, every life, has a value that God has placed within that life, and it can't be measured, you know, and we can use this argument for several other topics, but in this case, god shows us in his word how valuable Human lives are, and so that's, that's one thing that we see where God tells us about how he feels about humans and mankind. Another, and we hit on this earlier, is that God is no respect or a person, and so, therefore, if God is no respect or a person's, then he's not biased you know, you can't pay him off, so to speak and he's not unjust or corrupt. He's none of those things like human beings are. So instead, he's holy, he's righteous and just concerning all things, including slavery. So and you hit on this earlier and I thought, man, he's gonna knock it out the park right here, he's just gonna take it on home.
Speaker 2:But God said and this is the first and great commandment. So God said that the first and great commandment is this Thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy mind. All right, so that's the first and great commandment. Now check this out. He then said the second is like unto it thou shalt love thy neighbor as Thyself. So what God is saying here is when you put him first, you treat each other Like you're supposed to.
Speaker 2:So we clearly see just from the first and second commandment that slavery like that in the American colonies is clearly a sin against a man and Ultimately a sin Against God. So it's really cut and dry for the answer. What does God think about slavery? God thinks that slavery in the American colonies form not the biblical form that we went over For, where God gives us parameters in which to work and treat each other decently, but when we treat each other with cruelty and inhumanity, slavery like that is a sin against God. So what do you think about that? That's that's my take on it, I believe, from the biblical perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think if you want to know how God and what Jesus thinks about slavery, go look at his kingdom. There's no slave there in the future. There will be no slavery in his kingdom. We, as Christians, believe that Jesus is coming back. He will be the Lord of all nations America, russia, china, ukraine, every nation on the planet. He will rule over them and when he rules, there will be no slavery. It says on Micah 4 and 4 this, this passage here speaking about what the future kingdom is going to be like. What is the ideal kingdom? This is what it says. But they shall sit every man under his own vine and under his own fig tree.
Speaker 1:Every person is going to be sitting in their own land, in their own place, and none Should make them afraid, for the mouth of the Lord of Host has spoken it from all the way back, even in the Old Testament. Even back then it was saying look, there's a coming day when there will be no oppression, there will be no one to make you afraid. And Jesus in the New Testament, the new covenant, he said this, but he was at the beginning of his ministry. In book of Luke, luke 4 and 18, he said this the spirit of the Lord's upon me, because he's annoying me, to preach the gospel to the poor he has sent me to heal the broken heart. To preach deliverance to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, so that liberty them that are bruised. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Speaker 1:There at Luke 4, 19 is the year of Judea, believe, where they would set the slaves free. He said that's what I'm coming to outcome to set slaves free. And God's kingdom, oh, there'll be no slavery, there'll be no one to oppress anyone else. That will come to an end because of Jesus. He will come and that's how he views slavery. Um, yeah, I believe, and I think you believe this too, that in all the Bible we can see the gospel being preached. I just even in this I believe the gospel Can be preaching is preached. Um, you want to speak to that? Speak about how the gospel is preached even in slavery, how the gospel is preached through this.
Speaker 2:Definitely amen. So, uh, yeah, the the gospel is the centerpiece of the whole Bible. It's the good news, and even when we look at slavery, like you said, we can see the gospel. Something I want to mention here is that, um, I personally these are just my personal feelings on it but I believe that slavery is man's attempt at being God. That's ultimately what I see here, and so I want to kind of just map this out for just a moment.
Speaker 2:When we think of slavery, we recognize that slavery, or being a servant, is when an individual buys another individual, yeah, and the individual that's bought, their sole purpose becomes to serve their owner, the one that's bought them, in any capacity that is required of them. All right, so that's, that's what we see. Now check this out God bought his children with the price that we mentioned earlier when Paul was talking in the letter. Um, that God buys humanity, buys mankind with his own blood, and when an individual is bought with his blood, the sole purpose of that individual is then changed from serving themselves To serving him in any and every capacity he calls us to.
Speaker 2:I was talking to my wife about this and I and I mentioned this to her at the dinner table and she looked at me and she said so, god is a slave owner. And I kind of I kind of chuckled for a minute, because when you say it like that, it it almost sounds completely terrible. Um, but she was getting the point that I was making. And here's the point is if that's the case, then what's the difference? Right, yeah, what's the difference? So? So here's the difference Is that, remember I said, man's trying to be God.
Speaker 2:You see, when man does this, when man tries to buy and redeem one another, it looks like slavery, but when God does it for his people, it looks like salvation. Amen, yeah, that's, that's the bottom line for me. You know, uh, man with slave trade and everything like that is just A, a mimic of what God really has done for us, and God is the only one that can do it for us. You see, we can buy one another to try and fulfill our goals here on this earth, but when God buys us, he fulfills his ultimate purpose for all of his creation, and so that's, that's the gospel in a nutshell, right, there is that God has bought us, so we're no longer slaves to this world, but servants to Christ.
Speaker 1:Amen, brother, can you, can you take that to the cross? Show us how, in the cross, he did that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I sure can. So, um the cross, right? Jesus sent, or God sent, his only begotten son, jesus, and Jesus lived a sinless life, virgin birth, lived a sinless life, and the wonderful thing is is Is I'll put it this way, this is a. This is a really good, uh, illustration of it. Let's say you're in a courtroom and there's a stack of speeding fines, and you're guilty of all these speeding fines, and the judge looks at you and says You're guilty. So what do you then do if you're guilty for the speeding fines and you can't pay all of them? It's a stack, let's say, a hundred speeding fines. There's no way you could pay the price. It's so high, it's impossible for you to pay. All right.
Speaker 2:The deal is, though, that if someone can pay that price, that can pay those speeding fines, that judge can legally Dismiss your case. That judge can look at you. He would look at me in that instance and he'd say jonathan, you're guilty of all these speeding fines, but somebody's paid for every last one of them. You're free to go, and he can dismiss the case, right? Well, yeah, that's what we see at the cross.
Speaker 2:We see that all the fines, all the sins against god, whether it was, uh, american colony, slavery or, you know, adultery or any other sin that you can think of, the worst sins even that man's committed. I know I've sinned against god in in ways I'd never want to tell, but he knows, yeah, yeah. So what christ did is when he went on the cross, he walked into the courtroom and paid the speeding fines. And so now god, as the judge, can look at me and say you're free to go. And and that's how we get the cross out of all this is that, though we're guilty, jesus stepped in on the cross and paid our speeding fines.
Speaker 2:Yes, so amen, that's that's where I get that brother. So.
Speaker 1:Yes, I Well. I look at jesus. I feel like the gospel is seeing this. Whenever you look at jesus, you see him In black chains, just as he sees slaves in black chains. You see that christ Knows our struggle and knows our pain and can identify with us. He was in chains. He was falsely accused, as they were falsely accused. He was given injustice Rather than justice. Just as many slaves throughout history Were, he himself endured pain and torture on the cross for us to submit them endured unjustly pain and torture.
Speaker 2:We can identify with him and he can identify With us.
Speaker 1:And all of that, his entire purpose and all of that was to redeem humanity and his world, to break the power of slavery from the inside out. I think they're On the cross. You see him redeeming humanity from every form of slavery. What are that?
Speaker 2:slavery me owning possession.
Speaker 1:But man, this is not the slavery out there that have nothing to do To the other human being, owning of the human. It can be Addition to drugs, can be enslavement to that, can be enslavement to, to every form of passion and desire you can think of alcoholism, just Pornography, lust, and when the master cracks the web, you respond and and all of that, all that is sin. Every form of slavery, even possession of another human being, that sin he has come to redeem. To redeem means to buy back, to buy free, to buy someone's freedom. He came to buy us freedom.
Speaker 1:Is that, like you said, when christ does it, it looks like freedom. It is a deliverance from that, that bondage, and I think it's a, it's a glorious thing. But when you see that, that in his kingdom they will be finally real Freedom, a person can be free from the shackles of possession of the person but still be enslaved in their soul, he's come to say it all free, totally, completely. It set the race free and I, we have a wonderful god that we willing to come and do that for us.
Speaker 1:We have no right to deserve it, for aren't it like you said? We were? We broke the law, we, we, uh, we broke the speed and find we deserve to be in that court. But he has come to remove them and to redeem both the slave master and the slave that they both need to be bought out of the slavery of sin and coming to freedom of serving the lord. There's freedom in serving him. I'm no longer bound by the passions that held me, but there is a freedom that's come into my heart that I can do his will and walk after his way, and I'm thankful for, kind of god, it's like that.
Speaker 2:Amen. Me too, brother Amen.
Speaker 1:Brother, thank you so much for for coming on today and for being on this podcast. I I hope that for those who are listening to it, I hope it's been helpful to you. I hope you learned some stuff. We had to learn some stuff. We had lots of research. Both of us did for this and I hope it helps you answer the, the critic, but also see the, the goodness of god and all of this, that we do serve a very good god and now we're headed to a wonderful kingdom with Jesus as the king. Hope it's been helpful to you on this episode of voice of thunder. Jonathan, is there anything you want to add before we close?
Speaker 2:out Amen. Just want to say thank you for the privilege and opportunity to come on here and be with you. Um, most importantly, like we did right there at the end, just share the gospel, share the truth that god's given us and and strengthen one another in christ and and, ultimately, to Bring the truth to those that are believers and unbelievers, that god would be glorified. That's, that's ultimately why we're here to glorify god. So just thank you, and we appreciate all that y'all have done for us and everything there.
Speaker 1:So Thank you for coming on taking it to tell. I know it was a lot of time that to come on today. You got a little on the way, a little fine. Are you telling the name people now? Are you publicly telling the name of people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sir, we are Little little.
Speaker 1:Titus is on the way. So be praying for Jonathan and his wife with little baby Titus on the way, and be praying with us. We've got a little baby archer that we're trying to To to juggle and juggle life, so pray for us. I would love you guys, and god bless.