Is Grad School for You?: A Guide for BIPOC Students (with Drs. Yvette Martinez-Vu and Chávez-García)

Season 5 is here and as we usher in the fifth season of Writing on my Mind, Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu and Miroslava Chávez-García join us to shed light on the unique challenges faced by first-generation BIPOC students navigating the graduate school application process. Their collaborative effort, "Is Grad School for Me? Navigating the Application Process for First Gen BIPOC Students," serves as a powerful resource guide for those navigating the murky waters of academia. Listen to learn more about the layers of mentorship's impact on the graduate school journey, the authors' personal academic challenges, and their real-life inspiration and actionable guidance.

About the Guests

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu is a first-generation chronically ill and neurodivergent Chicana academic coach, author, and speaker. She is the producer and host of the top-rated Grad School Femtoring Podcast and founder of Grad School Femtoring, LLC where she empowers first-generation BIPOCs as they navigate higher education. Dra. Yvette is the co-author of the book, Is Grad School For Me?: Navigating the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students with the University of California Press and co-editor of the bestselling Chicana M(other)work Anthology with the University of Arizona Press.

Miroslava Chávez-García is Professor of History at UCSB and holds affiliations in the Chicana/o Studies, Feminist Studies, and Latin American and Iberian Studies. She is currently the Faculty Director of the UCSB McNair Scholars Program. Author of Negotiating Conquest: Gender and Power in California, 1770s to 1880s (University of Arizona Press, 2004) and States of Delinquency: Race and Science in the Making of California’s Juvenile Justice System (University of California Press, 2012), her most recent book, Migrant Longing: Letter Writing across the U.S.-Mexico Borderlands (University of North Carolina Press, 2018), is a history of transnational migration, gender, courtship, and identity as told through more than 300 personal letters exchanged among family members and friends across the U.S.-Mexico borderlands. In 2020, Migrant Longing was named a 2019 Choice Outstanding Academic Title and in 2019 it received the Barbara “Penny” Kanner Award from Western Association of Women’s Historians (WAWH). In 2017, “Migrant Longing, Courtship, and Gendered Identity in the U.S.-Mexico Borderlands,” published by the Western History Quarterly in Summer 2016, received the Judith Lee Ridge from the WAWH. In the same year, that essay was also awarded the Bolton-Cutter Award from the Western History Association for the best article on Spanish Borderlands history.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Writing on my Mind podcast. I'm your host, dr Emanuela Stanislaus. Author, career strategist, scholar and diversity consultant. I'm on a mission to create community for women of color graduate students to complete their graduate degrees with confidence. On this podcast, we discuss all things related to the graduate school journey, including the ups and downs of pursuing a graduate degree. I also share personal stories and bring some friends along for revealing conversations about their graduate school journey and provide inspiration for others to level up as grad students.

Speaker 1: 0:40

Hello and welcome back to the Writing on my Mind podcast. This is Dr Emanuela and this is season five. This is the first episode of season five. I am so excited to be back. I am here with a new episode and I cannot wait for you all to hear this conversation that I had with Dr Yvette Martinez-Vu, as well as Marislava Chavez-Garcia. I am starting this conversation a little differently. Usually, I do the intros and then the guests are right there and we jump right into it, but we're doing things a little differently today. I am going to start off by sharing their bios and then I will go right into our conversation. Both of these guests are the authors of the upcoming book. Is Grad School for Me Navigating the Application Process for First Gen BIPOC students, and they're here to talk about their journeys navigating graduate school and how they came to write this book together and what they're also hoping that folks take from the contents of the book. So I really enjoyed having this conversation with them and I know that you all will walk away with some great insights and be inspired to share this episode with other folks who are considering going to graduate school. Be inspired to pick up a copy of their book for either yourself or to give to someone else, and again, I can't wait for you all to hear it. So let me start by sharing their bios.

Speaker 1: 2:25

Dr Yvette Martinez-Vu is not a stranger to the Writing on my Mind podcast. She was here during season three, so definitely check out her episode. I'll also put that in the show notes for you all to check out easily. But Dr Yvette Martinez-Vu is a first-generation critically ill and neurodivergent Chicana academic coach, author and speaker. She is the producer and host of the top-rated grad school Femme Touring podcast and founder of Grad School Femme Touring LLC, where she empowers first-generation BIPOCs as they navigate higher education. Dr Yvette is the co-author of the book that I mentioned earlier is Grad School for Me, navigating the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students with the University of California Press and co-editor of the best-selling Chicana Mother Work anthology with the University of Arizona Press.

Speaker 1: 3:30

And then we also have Miroslava Chavez-Garcia, who is a professor of history at USCB and holds affiliations in the Chicana Chicano Studies, in the Chicana Chicano Studies, feminist Studies and Latin American and Iberian Studies. She is currently the faculty director of the UCSB McNair Scholars Program. She has published three academic books and numerous articles focused on the Latinx history, immigration and US border and race and juvenile justice. As a first-generation immigrant Chicana with farm worker and working class roots, miroslava devotes her professional life to femtoring and mentoring first-generation BIPOC students, staff and junior colleagues. And now I will go ahead and leave you with our juicy and inspiring conversation. Again, feel free to share this with others. I think you all are going to be super inspired by these first-gen experiences navigating the graduate school process and with that I'll see you on the other side, all right, so welcome to the show, yvette and Milos.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Yeah, happy to be here, looking forward to it. Yeah, I am beyond excited to have the both of you on here. I have known Yvette for a couple of years now. I've been on her podcast. I've had her on my podcast as well. She told me about you, amitos, a couple of years ago, whenever you all got the approval for this book, and I had been super excited to see the journey of this book coming to fruition and couldn't wait to have you on the show and just super excited to have you and know that you all will be sharing some valuable information that the audience will definitely want to lean into and probably go ahead and purchase a book, right. And so let's jump right into this whole conversation and start with the big question for me like what inspired the both of you all to collaborate and write this joint book?

Speaker 2: 5:57

I'm happy to pitch in and get started. This is Yvette speaking. One of the things that I say a lot when talking about the idea for the book is that I feel like I have had the idea for this book for a long time, like I wish that this book was around. When I was an undergraduate I was looking for that book. I couldn't find it and I thought to myself why hasn't anybody written it? I still find it very, very shocking and surprising that a book like this isn't out there. But it was always just a dream and it didn't become reality until I met Milos when I was working at the UC Santa Barbara McNair Scholars Program.

Speaker 2: 6:34

At the time I was the associate director. She had come in to fill in the role of faculty director, so she became my supervisor and it felt like being around a kindred spirit. The moment we met we shared our backstories. I got chills just how many things we had in common and I had I'm not kidding that when I say this. I had not met up to that point someone who had been just embodying what it means to be a mentor and a femtor up to that point.

Speaker 2: 7:08

I have had other mentors in my undergraduate, graduate school and even professional experience. But sometimes there were tensions there and I'll talk a little bit more about that when we talk about our experiences with mentorship. But I really felt supported and I felt seen and heard and so when I was departing that position to leave to start my business, you would think we'd stop talking because she's my supervisor and I'm like please, and instead I don't even remember Miros you fill this in because this is where my memory just kind of fails me but I remember there was a conversation at some point where you told me if I had ever thought about writing a book, and I was just like I thought you'd never ask because I don't know that it would have happened if it hadn't been for your support, and I'm completely honest about that.

Speaker 3: 7:57

Yeah, no, that's a great. First of all, I just want to say what an honor it is to be on your podcast, to be in the company of so many amazing guests that you've had across. I have not listened to every single podcast, but I've listened to some really amazing ones, so it's wonderful to be here. I saw doing the book project with Yvette as an opportunity not only to communicate this information which I thought was really important in terms of the work around mentorship and all these different aspects but really it was working with Yvette. Now we're going to get personal here and what drove us Certainly it was everything.

Speaker 3: 8:26

Being at McNair was just part of my larger mission, of the work that I do and that we do. And so, thinking about the book project, I had listened to Yvette's podcast, read through some of her transcripts and when we were talking, yeah, she was about to exit or had just left and I said have you thought about doing the book? And she said I thought you never asked. And so it just seemed like perfect, like these two pieces of a puzzle just snapping together or however you want to sort of say that. And yeah, and I just thought like how great it would be to work with Yvette, somebody who's so in the know and so up to date with all these new tools and tips and tricks and things for graduate school.

Speaker 3: 9:00

When I joined McNair I just she had it all down. I just was like whoa, I'm, you know, not getting old, but I'm having it's hard to keep up with all the new stuff. And so she had such a repertoire and depth and breadth of knowledge of all the things that worked for students, and students really resonated with her and I thought this would be a great opportunity to do this kind of work. Actually, a faculty, some faculty, have written academic books but they don't reach the kind of audiences that I've always wanted to reach, and this is exactly what I've been wanting to do. This is why I came to graduate school.

Speaker 1: 9:31

Yeah, I, first of all, I wanted to say I'm inspired by the both of you and your relationship and, you're right, I've gotten that same kind of similar experience just through connecting with Yvette. That you're like, I just want to work with her, I want to collaborate, and so I get it that her energy is just so positive and, like you said, she's knowledgeable and knows a lot and she's just super helpful and genuine as well. So I get that for sure. And then the other piece, too, that I think was super interesting as well, because I did get a copy of the introduction.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Can't wait to get the full book, but you're right, it is an approachable book. You talk about it through your experiences. You normalize various things, challenges that you've had in terms of how do you even get to grad school and I know we're going to talk a little bit about that as well and so I think that's the biggest thing for folks that I really wanted to share. This is an approachable, practical book. It's not super academic. It is grounded in making this more accessible to folks, which I really appreciate. So I think one of the things that I'm curious about, and I think some of the listeners might want to know is what is your graduate admission story? What was it like for you? And I think maybe tagging that on, like are there things in your graduate admission story that you're really hoping that folks don't make that mistake, like, hey, this is what I did or this is how it, you know how it went, to kind of help folks, kind of understand your path and kind of how you're wanting to help them.

Speaker 2: 11:20

Yeah, I'm happy to share a little bit more. So my undergraduate story and graduate admission story was that I was at UCLA, I was an English major theater minor and at the time this was in the around the 2008, you know, job market crises. I was hearing about folks who were struggling to get jobs and I thought to myself, what am I going to do with this degree? Everybody I know who graduates from college gets a job at a coffee shop and moves back home. And I thought to myself well, I'm a child of a single immigrant mom of six. There is no space in her home for me. I do not have a place to move back to, so I have to carve a path for myself.

Speaker 2: 12:03

And going to graduate school actually felt like a safety net because I knew that I was receiving that support. I had gotten into the Mellon Mays Undergraduate Research Fellowship. I was part of the inaugural cohort and there was a lot of pressure because we were the first cohort to apply and get into graduate school. So I knew I was going to be supported, there was a good chance I would get in and that I would receive funding that could pay my bills to study what I loved. So for me it didn't even feel like I had any other options, and what I wish I would have known in retrospect is that I actually had a lot more options than just going straight into a PhD and I had the skills necessary to get a job right out of undergrad, and that it wasn't the end of the world if I took a gap year or two or more. So that's kind of a little bit about. I don't want to go too into the weeds because I also want to give space for Milos to share her story.

Speaker 3: 13:01

Yeah, thanks. Sometimes you kind of forget how things happen. In my mind, the narrative I've spun now over many years decades probably we could say is that it was sort of inevitable, this is the way it was meant to be, and so forth. Because, especially in grad school and academia, we're taught like we're useless outside of this context, like you have no skills, which is not true. Our research gives us so many skills. But you know, definitely, the transition from undergrad to grad.

Speaker 3: 13:27

It was all about being a first gen. We didn't use a language back then. We didn't have that language at all, so we didn't. What sort of like? I would think it was ignorance. You know this idea of being, you know being bliss, but not really. But I was a history major.

Speaker 3: 13:41

I was looking at my fourth and fifth year like what am I going to continue to do? How am I going to live my life? Very similar to Yvette, where I felt like I could possibly go home, but there wasn't really a home anymore for me. As I mentioned in the book with Yvette, my parents died when I was young. I was 12 years old and so I was raised by my aunt and uncle, who were very supportive, loving, but had a very small home and they had their two daughters and I just was like that wasn't for me anymore. I knew that wasn't a place to go for a long term. They were very supportive, but then so I just looked forward and I thought like, well, I met a professor who introduced me to research and I, in a way, I think I just was lucky but also had a lot of support and I wouldn't. I always take. I always think about the term luck and I don't think it's luck, I think it's creating opportunities, but I also definitely believe in the support.

Speaker 3: 14:27

So what happened with me was that I applied only to very few schools, like five schools. I don't even know why I chose them. They were like the top schools of things we say don't do and I was very fortunate that one of the schools was where I was at at UCLA when I did my undergraduate degree and, fortunately for me, a mentor there advocated for me. He made it possible for me to attend. They asked for more materials and he got me a one-year fellowship and then I was able to get more fellowship money because of affirmative action back when I was in school and from that I think I was just in a bubble.

Speaker 3: 14:57

I mean, I don't know what happened behind closed doors. I don't know if I want to know what happened at that admissions day of accepting applicants or not. I'd rather not know, but I didn't know. Now that I know all these things that go on, I thought, wow, how did that happen? I'm not sure, but I'm grateful for it. And now that we know so much more to make this process definitely definitely more transparent, because we had no idea what happened behind closed doors.

Speaker 1: 15:24

I love that and you know because of both of your experiences of not knowing right. Being first gen, I was first gen as well, and also first or second gen American, with my parents, you know, being from another country, so I think we have a lot of those similarities there. What, what advice would you share with others who might find themselves in a similar position of not knowing what their options are or thinking that a break isn't an option Right, especially if they're thinking about grad school or not knowing what the career options are for them when they're getting close to graduation? What advice would you have for someone in that position?

Speaker 2: 16:08

One of the things that I wish was a requirement for every single undergraduate across the board at all institutions, is for students to be taught a course on career development and on taking charge of your career, because that was the missing link, and also to have some sort of subsection within that course related to pivoting and how common it is to pivot in your careers and that it's becoming less and less, I guess, normative for folks to go straight into, you know, one major and then continue in that major into a career and then continue that career until they retire.

Speaker 2: 16:51

It's just, you know, things are changing now and I felt like I was placed on a path where I was expected to just follow the pipeline you know, from undergrad to graduate school, from graduate school to the tenure track, from that to tenure and retirement, and that is the case for some but is overwhelmingly not the case for all or for the majority of folks.

Speaker 2: 17:16

That's why there's so few people of color, that's why we're underrepresented in higher education and in so many other fields and professions. So I guess when I say that I wish that folks knew that they had more options, I mean I wish that people were emboldened and empowered by knowing that you're the one that's responsible for carving that path and for curating it, for planning it. You can follow what people tell you to do, but if it doesn't align with what you want to do, one day you're going to find yourself in a position and a role where you realize you're having a midlife crisis and you want to change everything completely. So I think that's what it would be is just to remind people that you are in charge of your own career, you are in charge of your own life and that if you go into college and graduate school knowing this, you can make more intentional and strategic decisions and seek out the support systems, the mentors and femtors that you need to get there.

Speaker 3: 18:19

Yeah, I would echo everything that Yvette has said. The only two other small things I would add is one is I always tell students like we all have similar not all of us, but I feel like the students that I speak to have similar goals in terms of, you know, working on issues of social justice and equity and inclusion to that there's not just one path or one means to get to the ends or to the goals. Right, there's different paths, people take different routes. There's so many different places in which we are needed, so it's not like I will only make a difference if I take X or Y, z, no, there's all these other ways that we need to, you know, step up to our cause or to your cause, whatever that might be. Another useful thing might be to do some sort of shadowing I don't know if that's a good term, but just to see what is the day-to-day basis. What are they doing? Sometimes we think like, oh, look what they're doing. That's like 1% of their life. The rest of the time they're just like in the library, or they're doing monotonous work, or it's just reading and reading and reading or whatever. So that's really important is to do that kind of shadow work. Important is to do that kind of shadow work. And it's kind of interesting too in hearing Yvette talk about this pipeline that we're set on. In many ways we're not set up for that pipeline yet.

Speaker 3: 19:23

It's kind of like I think a lot of us, because we have all these expectations I know for me it was always my biggest one is like I didn't want to fail, I want to make sure. And I remember this one moment when I was an undergrad I had a tutoring session with calculus and I liked to do math and I remember I would mess something up and the tutor was like, oh, mito, you failed. My heart just sank. I thought like oh my God, and I realized like, wow, this I don't want to say it's a failure, but like not wanting to let down you know myself or Mars, like having the failure that I think we project onto ourselves, that we think that other people are, we put pressure onto others, that we think they're thinking about us, but it's really us internalizing and trying to make sure that we don't fulfill those sort of expectations of others. And so I guess I just pushed myself.

Speaker 3: 20:07

I thought like I have to make this next phase because I'm here, I have to prove myself, prove myself, prove myself, and sometimes you do that. Okay, you can do that, but what you end up like you've got something. You look around like wait a minute, where am I now? What space am I in that is so foreign and so cold and so unwelcoming and miserable. What's happening? So, yeah, I think that's a great idea about that course. It's a great idea.

Speaker 1: 20:30

Yeah, I love all of this. All of the things that you're saying are singing to my career coaching background and the heart of what I do. And so what I'm hearing is advocating right for yourself and advocacy because we do have the ability to go in the direction that we want, whether it's speaking to others, having informational interviews, shadowing, actually using your university career center. Yes, like when I worked in the university, I always wished that it was a requirement and so hopefully we're getting there. But if you are a first gen student, sometimes if folks don't tell you that it's required, you don't even realize that that service is there for you and you're paying into it with your fees and everything like that. So definitely take advantage of that. And I heard, too, yvette with the taking charge. I don't know if that was like a note to my ebook. So if you haven't gotten a copy of the taking charge career guide for graduate students, definitely pick that up.

Speaker 2: 21:35

I was going to say you know what that was? Totally I guess I must have thought of you and automatically that phrase came out of my mouth. So I was like what's the word? Like maybe the subtext or something like in my head I was like, oh, we're it, we're on Emanuela's podcast.

Speaker 1: 21:54

take charge, I love that it just came so naturally to you. I was like, oh yeah, awesome it is. It is all about that. It's like knowing that things don't just happen. You have to do something to make the things that you want occur. A big part of that as well, right? So when you're not able to do some of the things, or maybe you're not seeing the progress that you're wanting to see, this is where mentorship and femtorship play a role, right? And so in reading the introduction, you also talked about femtorship, mentorship relationships, playing a role in the success that you had with graduate school, and so I wanted to see if you could share, you know, a mentorship story, or maybe even advice for how students can leverage these mentorship and mentorship relationships for graduate school admissions.

Speaker 3: 22:54

First, I think it's important to figure out what your mentorship style is either as a mentor or a mentee Like how is it you best like to receive advice or insights about your work If you're more of the person who likes to receive the cold, hard facts air quotes around facts versus somebody who likes to be just told gently, like here's, I'm being, you know, like support and warmth and comfort, and that comes first, and then I'm more the trained in the old school way. Maybe that's sort of you know, like support and warmth and comfort and that comes first, and then I'm more the trained in the old school way. Maybe that's sort of you know, chalk it up to my Mexican immigrant roots. But when I was in grad school I had there was a professor I took he wasn't my advisor, well, not my main advisor, he wasn't on my committee. I took a class with him, a two-quarter research seminar in graduate school, and I struggled with the writing. At the end of the quarter I produced a paper that he really helped me with. So it was wonderful. But at the very end he told me that he gave me the hard facts.

Speaker 3: 23:47

Or the hard fact I guess he said to me you know, it would be a good idea if you thought about taking a writing course, writing at a community college. It could really help you with. You know all aspects of your writing and for me, I was kind of stunned by that because I thought like, wow, with my writing that atrocious, is it that hard? But he was. Nobody had ever told me that. Nobody had ever taken me aside and said this is the problem, this is what you need to do to fix it. And I think that you know that's the way I've always operated and that's where I kind of operate with my students. But I have to be careful. With every student it's different. Some people could take it I don't say take it, but people could take the advice or not. I just feel like it's better to get it from somebody who has well intention versus getting on the other side where they're going to be just berating you for that case.

Speaker 3: 24:31

And so luckily, in terms of my writing, I had a different advisor because my first one left. The second one was an editor of a journal. He had been an editor for 30 years and so he taught me how to write. It took me a little bit longer to finish my dissertation, but he's the one who taught me how to write and over time, I just worked a lot, a lot on my writing and I still work a lot on the writing. So I think that that is really important.

Speaker 3: 24:54

And I would also say, in terms of the mentorship, it's important as well to learn how to take that advice right, how to process it and, especially if it's coming from the right person, you know, is it mentorship? How is it being provided? So that's the one caveat. I have many other things I could talk about that, but I think that for me, when I work with my students, I like to just tell them this and you need to fix this, this and this, and then just get to it instead of you know, I did have one student, though, who is now a professor, and she said to me at one point, when we were reviewing her stuff back and forth she said Milos, is there anything?

Speaker 3: 25:26

can you say anything positive about this? Oh, I said, yes, it's wonderful. I just want you to, like you know, focus on this and make it, you know. But now she's at an excellent institution R1, has.

Speaker 2: 25:37

I agree with what Miros has shared, but I do want to add the importance of peer mentorship as well, because I was that undergraduate and graduate student who was more introverted, who struggled to reach out, who didn't know the hidden curriculum, who didn't even know what the with faculty and those that I did have mentorship relationships with.

Speaker 2: 26:06

Unfortunately, some of them cut ties with me when they found out that I was going off the tenure track.

Speaker 2: 26:12

That is the harsh reality of when you make decisions and you pivot, not everybody's going to come along for the ride, and so, for me, my ride or dies have been my peer support, peer mentorship network. That includes folks that I met through the McNair program, and so peer mentorship is just as important as mentorship on both ends and finding folks who are willing to support you, no matter what your plans are, even if they are a little bit different from what they were hoping from you, and also finding folks who are willing to be part of a reciprocal relationship and can see you as a whole person, and also to have multiple mentors, because no one person can provide everything for you. Some people you know are really good at one part of what you need for your personal and professional development. Other people might be able to fill other gaps. So don't expect to have just one or two or a couple of mentors who do it all. Instead, branch out and, you know, see what you can do to receive support and to offer them support as well.

Speaker 3: 27:31

I'll add one more thing. One thing I realized, now that you know been in academia for several decades, is that your mentors also change and shift over time, and that's okay. Like at some point I thought, when I stopped communicating as much with one particular mentor, I thought, oh no, I'm going to lose them, I won't see them. It's like, oh no, now I need a mentor to help me, because now I'm an associate professor. Right Before, when I was assistant, I needed somebody for X, y and Z. Now I'm an associate professor, I needed to go to somebody else. And I think as we climb up the ranks, then it becomes trickier and trickier to find people that we can go to. And that's what I'm thinking about working on a project myself. What do we do when we get at this level? Who do we turn to for support? We know who those people are up there usually white folks but we want people who we can feel comfortable talking to.

Speaker 1: 28:26

So think about mentors also can come in and out of your life and that's okay, just depending where you're at. Great advice. I love that. I love everything that you all shared and love the concept of you know your personal board of directors and just having a bunch of folks that you can call on for various things. With that like. One of the things I'm thinking about is like advice that you all have given your experiences right and your knowledge in this book around what historically excluded students should really consider if they're considering the option to go to graduate school. Any advice that you have to help them in that area.

Speaker 2: 29:03

I'm going to say that it starts with the initial conversation of finding out whether grad school is even a necessary next step for them in their career and life. Because I have found time and time again that sometimes students expect to go to graduate school and like that's the next step for everybody, but it's. It's not necessarily the case, and I have also witnessed so many people of color women of color black and brown women who have gone at the top of the ranks. They tend to be the ones that go and get the highest degrees but then have the lowest salaries. And there's opportunity costs involved. There's the opportunity cost of the sacrifice, the time, energy, money, investment that goes into going to graduate school.

Speaker 2: 29:51

And so if folks don't do that initial self-reflective work of figuring out where do I want to go and for that career path do I need an advanced degree, will I get stuck at a point where I need an advanced degree? Will I get stuck at a point where I need an advanced degree to get there? Then, yes, definitely there's other things to consider, you know, like finding the right people, location, et cetera, like there's. I'm happy to have Miros talk about that part of it, but I definitely want to just stress the importance of having that tough conversation around. Is grad school even a necessary next step for you? It may not be necessary, yeah.

Speaker 3: 30:27

I think she answered that question really well. The other points are sort of, as you said, sort of standard like in terms of thinking about a graduate program. You know the location. Are you okay excuse me going out of state? Are you willing to deal with the new culture? Sometimes these other states have different kinds of cultures, laws, even right Some states, especially right now. Even the language sometimes is difficult to the references that people make too.

Speaker 3: 30:50

So, if you're going to be in a new environment, are you okay, willing to attend a PWI? Or do you want an NCSI or an APZ institution, these Hispanic serving institutions and these and so forth? Funding is important. What is the climate at the campus in terms of racial, ethnic and gender climate? And that is what is the environment like there for you. Are there supportive faculty and faculty of color?

Speaker 3: 31:14

If you don't have a faculty person who's willing to vouch for you, have your back. It's not going to happen. It's just not going to work, because even the fact that most departments won't take a student if there's no one in the department willing to work with them. So you have to make that personal connection, or at least professional connection through email or somehow, that that person is willing to work with you. So that's what I would say, but definitely thinking about whether it's even for you. I've seen so many people women of color in particular, as Yvette says doing all these things and in the end they decide to do the, you know, become the personal, this, or have their own businesses, because the institutional racism is this. So you would, you know, you exhaust yourself from that. It's just belittling at every moment. So we don't need that, we don't have time for that.

Speaker 1: 31:59

Right, we have no time for that, for sure, and you know that's a whole other podcast episode, right. But I think it's through those peer mentorships, the relationships that you have with others, talking through other people who've gone through that journey, where you can kind of prepare yourself for that journey yourself and see what it is that you want to do, what it is that you are not willing to do, the environment that you want to be in, and then you know make your decision based off of that. So, with that, what makes an applicant competitive when they are applying for graduate school? What should they be thinking about? What should they be doing?

Speaker 3: 32:44

All of the things, I think the one of the things that most institutions will look for is some kind of research profile, that is, you've carried out research in your area of interest and, if so, what does that look like? And also like what is the contribution of your research? It's hard, these are really hard questions to be able to answer, especially if you're coming straight out of undergraduate or you've taken a gap or you're what we call a non-traditional student, where you've maybe taken 10 years away and coming back. So there's other ways that you can talk about research, the strengths that you have, the things that you've been based on your experiences, that you can bring to the table. You know we talk about this in the book, about how, like, maybe you haven't been in a lab setting, you know, like in traditional academic lab, but maybe in your place of work, what kinds of work you've done there and what kinds of research-based or what looks like research. So talking about that is really important. And are you able to communicate those research experiences as well. So that's really important communication right, having the ability to write well helps. And also who you've worked with.

Speaker 3: 33:45

I hate to say that, but who's trained you essentially? Who have been your mentors? What's that training look like? Lastly, I'll just say that, even though it's not stated, this is part of the hidden curriculum. It's your trajectory. In some cases it's your pedigree. Sometimes it's more about your history, your personal history, the things that you've overcome, despite you know the fact that there was all these challenges that you faced, and how you've been able to sort of rise above that with support and so forth. So that's, I think, part of what people. I think the number one thing would be the research and how you frame that.

Speaker 1: 34:17

I have a follow-up too, before Yvette shares her piece. Go ahead In terms of research. Like I do get that sometimes when working with undergrads and part of the questions that they have is like how do I even get this research experience, especially if they're thinking about grad school, like, say, their senior year? What can they do to get that experience? Any advice from the faculty point of view in terms of how some of these students can find those opportunities?

Speaker 3: 34:50

I would say that sometimes on the campus that they're at, they can find some opportunities. Sometimes students will take either they'll stay in school for another year but sometimes economically that's not feasible or they will graduate and stick around and work in a lab, you know, hopefully making enough. That's the issue, like the housing, especially in California, housing costs. This is not an easy decision to make, but if they can make the sacrifice to participate, or even in a school setting education, somewhere related to what they want to do, so that they can have a strong letter of support or some sort of support from that place where they work.

Speaker 3: 35:22

Of course, when you apply to graduate school, they really look for PhDs and people in the tenure track to write letters for you. So I think those personal connections that you have with faculty or developing those at some point, just knocking on every door that you can, that's what we see. There's programs on campuses but sometimes by the time you're a senior they're like it's a little bit late for that. But I would say knocking on doors, going to the career center, trying to find ways. There's different ways you can do research, not just the one, but I think that it does become a little bit scrabble, but it can happen. It just takes a little more time.

Speaker 2: 35:50

I was just going to say. A lot of what Milos just shared has to do with applying for PhD programs in particular, and so I want to highlight what it's like to apply to professional programs and master's programs as well, because there is a strong research emphasis for PhD programs. There's no denying that. But if you are applying to more practical or applied master's programs, they're going to value the work experience or the professional experience just as much, they're going to value the professional letter and reference just as much. Much. They're going to value the professional letter and reference just as much. And you know, if you're applying to certain fields like, let's say you know this is like beyond what we wrote in the book, we primarily focus on master's and PhD programs. But if you're applying to MDs and JDs and those fields, they're going to want that kind of clinical experience or legal experience. They're going to want internships and externships. And so for the folks who maybe are seniors and know, actually I think I want to one day get a PhD, I would say don't discount the fact that you can get into a master's program or a post-baccalaureate program with no research experience. That is still possible. Of course, it's easier to get into those programs with research experience. But it's not impossible, it's not.

Speaker 2: 37:11

Something that we mentioned in the book is that there are a lot of admissions committees not everybody, but a lot of them are looking at them holistically. So they're looking at your entire package so you can have all the best research experience in the world. But if your essays are not strong, if your letters of recommendation are not strong, you're not going to get in. If you can't make a case for yourself, you're not going to get in. You're not going to get in. If you can't make a case for yourself, you're not going to get in. Whereas if you have a lower GPA and you're in a field where there's no minimum GPA requirement and you have very strong letters, if you polished and tailored and have strong essays, you have a pretty good chance.

Speaker 2: 37:55

So I just kind of want to kind of share some other options and some other perspectives. Because, yes, I know like we all want to have, especially if you're going the PhD route that research experience, the letters from all the top scholars. But there is no perfect application, just like there is no perfect person, just like I want to debunk this. You know the notion that we have to be perfect people, because perfectionism is a tenet of white supremacy. You don't have to be perfect to get in. You do have to be intentional and strategic to get in. So keep these things in mind, depending on whether you're going the master's route or the PhD route.

Speaker 1: 38:33

Totally, and I would also say that working with a coach can definitely help you if you feel like you're not strong in some areas, or whatever it is. I think it's all about how you present yourself, how you explain things right, so like, for example, I'm even thinking about maybe you didn't do research, but you participated in research research that took place on campus as a participant. You can spin that to where you can talk about how your approach to research would be a little different because of your experience as a participant, right, and so like. There's ways that you can go through that process and tell the story that you want to help position yourself as a strong candidate. So thank you both for sharing that information for us. Thank you both for sharing that information for us, and I think you know. Now I just want to talk about what you hope to be the biggest takeaway from the book that you have coming out. Can you share a little bit about what you're hoping folks take away from all of your hard work, blood, sweat and tears?

Speaker 3: 39:39

This is Milos. I want readers to realize that this is really an act of love on our part. I was thinking about this for a little bit, that here we're saying here are the tools that you need to be successful, and we're doing this because we care about you, we care about our community, we want to empower our communities. Yeah, so I think that for me, ultimately, that sums it up our communities, yeah, so I think that for me, ultimately, that sums it up.

Speaker 2: 40:04

I want to echo what Milos said.

Speaker 2: 40:05

It really is an act of love. It is, you know, I think that you know at the core of like what Milos and I have in common. I'm just projecting, so I might be wrong, milos, but I'm assuming that at the core, like, one of your values is social justice, and I've used social justice work as at the core is about loving, loving people and minimizing harm, and that's what I think that this book is doing. But, you know, from the perspective of helping more first-gen BIPOCs get into graduate school and learn about the process, if that's the route that they want to take, and giving them permission to make that decision for themselves. So, again, I just want to echo, you know, what Miro said and also what I mentioned earlier about making sure that folks are empowered and emboldened and galvanized to make decisions for themselves and to know that they have many, many options and that there is no right or wrong way and that they have their own trajectory. Even if it doesn't happen this year or next year, they get to decide this.

Speaker 3: 41:10

Yeah, one last thing too, and the dedication is about providing this to those who haven't had many opportunities in their lives, but also this idea of paying it forward, just thanking my mentors, just being mindful that this is the work that they helped me to do and I feel like I can't fail them, going back to the failure that I need to put this out there.

Speaker 1: 41:31

Awesome. So our time has come to an end and before I have you all share how folks can connect with you and follow you, folks can connect with you and follow you. I did want to share with folks that the book that we keep referencing, that I talked about at the beginning, is called Is Grad School for Me, navigating the Application Process for First-Gen BIPOC Students. It is available for pre-sale now and it does come out and is out for a general purchase on April 16. So definitely make sure that you go out and get yourself a copy. Support these ladies that are doing amazing work and are doing this work to really diversify the folks who are going and pursuing graduate degrees. So super excited about that and I will definitely put a link to get the book in the show notes, but we'll turn it over to you all to kind of share how folks can connect with you and follow you.

Speaker 2: 42:34

I'm happy to start. You can reach me. I have, I guess, three main ways. If you're on social media, you can find me on Instagram. My handle is gradschoolfemtouring so like mentoring, but with F-E-M and on LinkedIn I'm also available and you can find me with my name, yvette Martinez Vu. Place to find me is through my website, gradschoolfemtouringcom. You can pre-order or order your copy of the book on there as well. The link for that is gradschoolfemtouringcom slash book.

Speaker 3: 43:10

For me, the easiest way to contact me is through my email. I'm not on social media but my email it's chavezgarcia, all one word at ucsbedu or the UC Santa Barbara History Department website and they're under faculty people. I update that page. And academiaedu. I update that periodically. I need to do that soon. But yeah, those are the main ways to reach me. I respond to email.

Speaker 1: 43:35

I love it. Thank you all so much and I'll add all of those links into the show notes for folks to connect with you, purchase their copy of the book, share it with others widely, and that's it for today. Thank you so much for this great conversation. You shared some amazing gems that folks can walk away with and really action on in terms of their graduate applications, graduate school, navigating, undergrad in a way that helps set them up for success in grad school and all of the things. So thank you both for being here.

Speaker 3: 44:13

Thank you so much for amplifying our voices. Appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 44:16

Thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 1: 44:19

That's a wrap. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the Writing on my Mind podcast. If you'd like to support the podcast, make sure you follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts, rate the show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also donate to the show by clicking the support link in the show notes. Your donations help me to continue to put out new episodes to help support you and other women of color graduate students. I'd also love it if you can spread the word to other women of color graduate students to grow our community. Also, be sure to follow me on Instagram, tiktok and Twitter at Dr Emanuela. See you on the next episode.