Paradigm Shifting Books
“What are the must-read books for personal and professional development?” If you’ve ever wondered this, you’ve come to the right place. Join us as we dive into 40 essential books that everyone should read. Hear directly from the authors as they share the key paradigms and principles necessary to unlock your full potential. Hosted by brothers Stephen H. Covey and Britain Covey, this podcast is your gateway to transformative insights and growth.
Paradigm Shifting Books
Book #1 - The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People with Stephen M.R. Covey
Exploring the Origins and Impact of 'The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People'
In this episode of Paradigm Shifting Books, the hosts welcome their father, Stephen M.R. Covey, to discuss the renowned book 'The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People' by their grandfather, Stephen R. Covey. They delve into the book's origins, the unique perspectives Stephen M.R. Covey brings from his professional and familial experiences, and the evolution of paradigms and principles central to the book. The discussion also addresses listener questions about applying the habits in today's rapidly changing world, the challenges of living by these habits, and the concept of primary and secondary greatness.
00:00 Introduction and welcome
01:53 The origin, development & release of the 7 habits
18:07 Personal reflections and Impact
21:22 Primary vs. secondary greatness
27:52 Applying the 7 habits in the NFL
34:03 The power of habit 1 - be proactive
37:30 The hardest habit to live?
42:37 The 8th habit
44:28 Relevance of the 7 habits today
48:12 Understanding paradigms and how to shift paradigms
01:05:00 How to apply the 7 habits to your life
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Welcome everyone to another episode of Paradigm Shifting Books. Today, we're really excited and happy because we have our dad, uh, Stephen M. R. Covey back on the podcast. If listeners who've listened in the past may remember the great episode we did, actually up in Montana, we recorded that. On, on your, on your book, uh, the speed of trust and as you know, dad, and, and obviously with, with Brit joining the podcast, even though we've already recorded, you know, I recorded with our uncle, Sean, your brother, Sean on the seven habits. Britt didn't want to not have an opportunity to also review the seven habits. I mean, that's one of the inspirations that we both have for this podcast. And obviously our grandfather, Stephen R. Covey, who sometimes we'll refer to as Papa, cause that's, that's, that's how we call them. Um, but Stephen R. Covey, who wrote the seven habits have had such a huge influence in my life and Britt's life and inspiration for the podcast. So that's why you're back on, dad.
Stephen MR:I'll take it.
Britain:I didn't want to go without doing the seven habits that I had to, and, and yes, for all listeners, uh, I don't think it's something I'm going to be able to curb, probably going to refer to him as Papa unknowingly. So if you hear that, that is our grandfather, Stephen R. Covey. Um, and we also have quite a few. Messages from listeners and questions that we're going to add into the mix. So, uh, listen for your question and we, we appreciate all questions that have been asked.
Stephen H:that's kind of what we're hoping for in this podcast is to have engagement with the listeners. Cause again, Brit and I are not experts ourselves on any of this. We're just curious and interested and inspired by, by all these books, especially this book seven habits. So dad, you obviously have. Kind of a really unique perspective on the seven habits. Um, not just because. You were the CEO of Covey Leadership Center and had a huge part to play in growing the seven habits from a business perspective, but obviously you grew up with, uh, with Stephen R. Covey as your father, your dad, and you witnessed kind of the development of the seven habits over the years. So that's, probably the first question I have is can you describe how Papa initially. conceived of the idea of the seven habits, you know, what, what inspired him over the years? What, what did you witness growing up and, and, and on?
Stephen MR:first of all, this is so exciting to be with you guys, to do this. It's really fun. And, and especially to be with my sons and have this chance to do it. And also just like, uh, Brett, you want to make sure you had a chance to weigh in on the seven habits. Um, I feel the same. I didn't want uncle Sean, my brother, Sean, to be the only one that gets to talk about the seven habits. So you're, the fact that we're doing this is great. And, um, Here's what I will say is initially the seven habits were kind of taught as individual principles one by one before, before, uh, um, my dad, before Papa, Stephen R, before he put them all together. Habits. Initially, I remember as a kid growing up in the home and one time we had a family meeting and he talked about, you know, kids, we got to begin with the end in mind. And you know, that later became habit too. But at the time it was just a standalone principle begin with the end in mind. And then in other times we'd hear about, you gotta seek first to understand then to be understood. Now later that became habit five, but at the time, It was not taught in, you know, in sequence and conjunction. It was just a standalone principle and, and kind of almost every one of them, I can remember at different times being taught that principle and it was really just over time that, that, uh, Stephen R began to say, Hey, let's put these, I'm going to put these together. Into a sequence. It became more clear that there was a real power in a sequence that individually, the principles were, were powerful, but in sequence, they're even more powerful. And the idea that a private victory, precedes a public victory. And then you go from dependence to independence to interdependence. And there's a sequence and then you renew it all. You know, what became habit seven sharpen the saw, which was really the idea of renewal of any of all of these. So that's kind of how it started as individual principles. They were being taught and we, and we kind of learned these in the home. I think that we were the, you know, us kids, your aunts and uncles were the, we were the first Guinea pigs for seven habit. As individual principles, you know, taught one by one at different times and, and, uh, over really, you know, 10, 15 years before it kind of all came together. As a model, as a sequence of seven habits of high defective people. So that's kind of the most interesting thing. And, and then also seeing how, just how, how impactful it was, how universal, how it impacted people everywhere in the world. And the interesting thing about it is Steven began teaching seven habits about a S seven habits, about a decade before the book was published. So, so, uh, you know, he began to teach it as seven habits and there was, it was a whole 10 years later before the book came out. So that was really interesting to see the interest in it and the impact that it had.
Britain:It's really, it's funny to hear you say that you guys were the, the Guinea pigs, uh, because we all know that. That Papa used to like to have family meetings and councils. And I even remember being a little eight year old and having a family council. And I think I might've mentioned this on our other episode, but me just like wanting to run away and hide because I'd be like, Oh, Papa's having another two hour council. I'd get my cousins and we'd be like, let's go. Let's now, if I could go back, I would get. Anything in the world to be a part of those councils. Cause this is the stuff we would talk about. Um, but I can't imagine with where you guys were, you, you, you'd always tell us that Papa used to go pretty long on those and he lacked a little bit of awareness with the family councils. Oh,
Stephen MR:As kids, we had three hour counsels. Seriously.
Britain:that is hilarious.
Stephen MR:And it's the same thing. I look back now and I say, my goodness, how blessed we were. But at the time, we were like you. We were not any different. We were bored stiff. We just wanted it to end.
Britain:Yeah, I love it. Um, well, because you, you had such an early, um, just opportunity to, to listen to those, did you notice any significant changes over time? How did the, the, either the idea for the seven habits or any habits in general evolve over time? Were there any significant changes, um, things called by different names that initially started as something? More habits, less habits. What changes did you see over time? Yeah.
Stephen MR:The principles were always the same, but the names changed. Um, I remember, I remember seeing a seven habits presentation and there was a one page handout on it. And I saw, um, the seven habits. The first habit was called proactivity. The second habit begin with the end of mind was called creativity. And the third habit put first things first was called productivity. You know, they were phrased in these one word expressions, but it was the same principle, you know, that you're productive, you know, you put, because you put first things first and you're creative because you begin with the end in mind and so forth. And then I think when, when habit four, I remember it was called mutual benefit. Which is the principle behind it. And then, and then, um, I think have a five seek first to understand then to be understood initially was called a mutual understanding. And, and I can't remember what synergy was called. Um, I think it was called creative cooperation and then sharpen the habit seven, sharpen the saw was called initially renewal, you know, but then, but then over time, it was the same principles, but then the decision was made to put these in the form of, of an expression of a statement of an action oriented thing, a verb, something I can do begin with the end in mind, put first things first think when, when, so more action oriented. Not just a noun. But it was always, I always remember it being seven. Um, because again, the C, the big idea that came to Papa was the idea of, of sequence of, of these principles that the real power was in the sequence. And, and, uh, so rather than just teaching them as I said, principles, what if, you know, habits one, two, and three, that's all about helping a person go from dependence to independence where they can become, you know, capable, responsible person. Because they're, you know, they're proactive. They begin with hand in mind, they put first things first. And that kind of is this private victory that if you can win the private victory with yourself, then you can go out and win public victories with others. And, you know, and then that was the next three habits, four, five, and six, which was about working with other people. Interdependently going from independence to interdependence. And so that, that was always the same. And then the renewal habit, habit seven, sharpen the saw was always the same. So they're always with seven,
Stephen H:Um,
Stephen MR:but the names were different. They, they also used to make, you know, Papa's name for seven habits was initially the seven basic habits. Of highly effective people, the word basic was there because he was kind of saying, look, there's other things that people can do in life, but these are foundational. These are basic habits, but the publisher said that's too long. We got to shorten it. This is the seven habits. And so that was kind of fun. The subtitle changed a lot through the years because initially the subtitle was. It was The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and then the subtitle was Restoring the Character Ethic. Then over time it changed to Powerful Lessons in Personal Change, which is more descriptive of what, you know, what the gain would be for a reader. This is about personal change, and here's great lessons, powerful lessons. But it started as Restoring the Character Ethic. And that really came from, from what started this all for, for, uh, where Papa put this all together was the idea that he did that 200 year study of the literature. In, in America, um, where he looked and saw that for the first 150 years, the, the, the literature was focused on character. And then the last 50 years, there was a shift from character to what you might call personality, more skills and more, more techniques and things. And, and and that, that shift from character to personality, you know, was probably maybe not helpful and that These seven basic habits were all about kind of restoring the character ethic, going back to character as the basis, the primary greatness, not just secondary greatness. So those were some of the shifts, but it was always seven. Don't ever remember it being different than that, but the names changed. Um, the sequence was really always the same, but that, but that's what, that's what came through as an insight to, to Stephen was that sequence matters.
Stephen H:Well, maybe one more one more question around kind of the genesis of all of this is you mentioned your family. So your brothers and sisters kind of being guinea pigs. And I think Brent and I can relate to that in some sense of if anyone listens to the speed of trust episode. Dad, dad used me as, as kind of a guinea pig on some, some, some, uh, trust, trust issues I had as a teenager. So, um, but outside of, uh, out, out, so outside of family, I've always wondered. What else contributed to him being able to come up with these insights? I mean, he was a university professor, which obviously is a big one. And then didn't he do a lot of work, you know, before leaving as a professor, he did a lot of work with large corporations for years, right? Like this was, this was like a 20, 30 year process. Of coming to this is my understanding, right? I mean, I've always wondered like how, how, how was he able to synthesize all of this the way he did?
Stephen MR:it's interesting cause Stephen used to always say that it takes 10 years to write a book. And in the case of seven habits, I think it's, it was 20 years. I think he literally worked on this for, for years, but it began the way you described son. It was, it was, he would go out and, and, uh, begin to teach companies. And again, he would teach individual principles. He would teach, you know, what became habit five, seek first to understand, then to be understood. And then separately, he would teach, begin with the end in mind, or separately, he would teach put first things first. And it was just over time as he was doing this and he was, he was doing leadership development, training, speaking, consulting, and began to work more and more with companies. And it became more and more clear that, that these principles were valuable, but if he could organize them, Make them accessible, tangible, you know, actionable. That was really valuable. And that's where this sequence ideas came to him, you know, private victories, receive public victories, go for independence to independence, interdependence, and then renew it all. And then that's when he started teaching that idea. And then pretty soon seven habits was born as seven habits. But again, he went another decade. Teaching seven habits to businesses, to organizations all around the world before kind of the book came out. So it really was a 20 year journey probably. And even before that, because it was really his whole lifetime that kind of all the influences and it was his own experience, but also it was the experience of working with clients and getting feedback and, and hearing from others and seeing how it works. And maybe when it didn't work and what was valuable and what people lobbed onto. And so it really was a, you know, a couple of decade process of producing what became the seven habits.
Britain:And that feedback that you're talking about, that feedback loop, what was that like in that process of publishing it? Yeah. What was the perception of it? What was the, you know,
Stephen MR:Well, the feedback was really good because it was come directly from clients. Cause again, um, you know, dad was doing the client work just out there. Working with companies and people would respond and say, this really works. And we're connected to it. And, and so we knew, I knew when the book was coming out. That it was going to be well received because because the clients were responding so well to the training and to the speaking so I knew the book was going to be well received, but it was interesting though, the very act of publishing, the publishers don't know that he's doing this training and stuff. and and I think we have a total of like 27 rejection letters from publishers that, that, uh, where. You know, the, the agent was Dupree Miller, Jen Miller, and she went out and went to all these publishers saying, we're going to run a, write a book called the seven basic habits of high defective people. And I've seen a lot of these and some of them say, well, you know, we think this is a nice idea, but we don't think it's big enough to sell very many copies. So we're going to pass on it and things like this. And where some people would say, Hey, But not big enough or a nice idea, but it's been told before or this or that. And, and, uh, so 27, I think there's 27 rejection letters and then, and then, uh, but then Simon and Schuster caught the vision that this could be big. Um, but I knew it was going to be big. Because I'd seen, I was with, with, uh, you know, your grandfather, um, when he would be presenting it with, with clients, I saw how people responded to it. I just saw how personal it was to people, how practical it was and that this could really work. And so I knew, I knew it was going to take off and it did. And it was not an instant success, but it kind of was like a build and, and make it like a rocket ship that just was taking off and going higher and higher. And then pretty soon it just. We're going to orbit.
Stephen H:You mentioned you were able to be with Papa quite a bit as he's teaching people the seven habits over the years. Um, so maybe more personal question, but you know, do you have a memory and experience of how, of how your father influenced? Your own understanding of, of the seven habits of, of living an effective life. Does anything, you know, stand out to you?
Stephen MR:A whole bunch of experiences. Um, one was even when I decided to join, um, the company and I had, I was coming out of business school, I'd had a couple of, Years work experience prior. I had an opportunity, you know, on wall street, pretty exciting. I had an opportunity in real estate development. That was pretty exciting. I'd worked with them before and those were the reputable offers, you know, and then, and then I had a chance to, to join with, with, uh, with, with my dad, your grandfather. And that was just a small company fledgling, you know, no one had heard of it. And this was my business school. All my classmates are going to wall street or they're going to investment banking or, or to consulting firms or manufacturing companies and stuff. And, and then I ended up joining this, you know, it's hard to call it a family business because it wasn't, it was just a small fledgling firm, but, but this was before the seven habits had been published and I knew this book was going to take off. I just, I just knew it cause I'd seen it but the principle on this was the idea that, uh, purpose and impact. Cause I remember just trying to decide what to do and I was leaning towards maybe doing, um, The, the real estate and, and, um, the real estate development. And I remember, uh, uh, Papa coming to me and saying, that's great. If you want to do that, my question to you is, do you want to build buildings or do you want to build people? And, and it was a way of me of saying, you know what, I really do want to build people. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with building buildings. That's a useful thing. It's valuable. We need buildings and that's important too. So that's an important purpose. It just wasn't my purpose. So I started to, you know, it was a way of learning kind of begin with the end in mind. For me, what matters to me? What, what are my, you know, what are my values? What, what's my end in mind? And again, I'm not going to judge anyone else's cause they, you know, building buildings might've been perfectly for perfect for their end in mind. But for me, I was more drawn towards, an impact on people and partly because I grew up with dad and, and, uh, I saw this and I saw his influence and it was kind of in my DNAI felt. And, and so, but that was kind of a, a way of, of, me discovering what is my end in mind and have I thought about my end in mind, what matters most to me? And, and, and it was really the principle of it. That, you know, we've heard him teach all of us that life is about contribution, not accumulation. And it's about creating value and having impact and making a difference. And so that was my way of kind of learning habit to, for me, beginning with the end in mind, for me, what's my end in mind. What are my values? What are the things that are most important to me? And I kind of learned it through the process of deciding to join the company.
Britain:That's honestly, whenever somebody asks me what my favorite quote is, I always say that one
Stephen MR:Do you?
Britain:yeah, I say life is not about accumulation. It's about contribution because I think it's so easy to get wrapped up in that all of us do. I do it. I almost have to fight that on a daily basis. And I think initially. When you hear that quote, you kind of think of it as a little bit unrealistic, like, okay, but can I really live a life where I'm content with the purpose being contribution more than accumulation? Because everything geared towards us today is to try and accumulate, accumulate wealth, accumulate accolades. Whatever it is, um, and really as I fight that and I have my purpose be more based on contribution, I am so much happier and accumulation comes as a byproduct, obviously, but that that is one of my favorite quotes and principles from from Papa that I think is so powerful in the seven habits
Stephen MR:I think it is. And he later kind of expressed it another way, a couple of other ways. When, when he would call primary greatness. Versus secondary greatness.
Britain:Yeah, expound on that because I think that's such a great
Stephen H:well, that's literally, it's weird you mentioned that dad, because that's literally like where my mind went just barely. Because a lot of, a lot of, a lot of listeners that have, you know, typed in questions, which we appreciate, we appreciate. A theme of some of the questions was around, like, how could, like, how can I be successful? What is success? And I feel like if you get on the internet today, and you, you know, I've done it, go to YouTube and you say inspirational successful videos or something, and then there's all these different videos, and they, it's like they're all, all different things, and, and most of it feels around Like accumulation, not contribution. I'm not saying all of them. There's great stuff out there, but I feel personally that this, the concept of primary and secondary greatness is great. So I just wanted to mention that, that I felt like that's with you going that way. I think it's relevant to the questions people asked about this episode and where my thoughts were too.
Stephen MR:I think it's an important point, what you're just mentioning that, that look, there's different ways we can kind of say what success looks like and what it is, and, and there's, there's a secondary greatness, which is things like achievements and accomplishments, right? And accumulation and, and titles and accolades and things, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It can be a good thing and we want that we want to achieve. We want to accomplish things and, and, and, and such. And so that, that is, it's a greatness. It's just. It's secondary only because what's, what a primary greatness is, is, is the development of character, of integrity, of respect, of empathy, of compassion. You develop yourself, you develop your character, your desire to contribute, to, to add value, to make a difference, to have purpose and meaning and contribution in life. And so a focus. First on primary greatness of developing your character and your competence and your integrity and your maturity, your courage, your consideration, your empathy, that that by having a, by having a mindset, it says that matters becoming and being. As opposed to just seeming or pretending, you know, if you put that kind of first, then you'll also have some secondary greatness that will follow naturally. You can achieve and will achieve. And so it's not like it's good and bad or either or, but it's just kind of a, a prioritization of primary greatness, focusing on really becoming and being and not just, achieving. And accumulating. And so it's just a kind of a, a frame of mindset, a framing of it. Steven was pretty realistic about this too, you know, cause there is a Maslow's hierarchy of needs you move from survival, that's where you're on the low end of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You're trying to survive. To stability. Now you've improved, um, you're more stable. To success. Now you're achieving to significance and now you're kind of contributing and giving back, but there is kind of a hierarchy and it's kind of a flow and it's hard to just say, I'm going to go to significance when you're trying to survive and be stable and trying to build a foundation. So there is a, there is kind of a. Hierarchy. And there is kind of a process of getting there. That's why, Hey, a lot of us are in the survival. We're trying to survive. We're trying to get stable and we're trying to achieve success. But if you just all along have a mindset of saying this is good. And my mindset is I want to ultimately move towards significance. Towards contribution and I'm on the journey. I'm not fully there yet, but my mindset is to get there. Then that gives a framing for all of this. And so it's not seen as well accumulating as bad. No, it's just part of being on the journey, but, but along the journey, we can still have a mindset of contribution and of significance of mattering, of trying to make a difference and rather than waiting until the very end saying, Hey, I'll contribute after I've accumulated. We say, no, we try to, we try to contribute along the way. We don't just wait to the end. So that, that's another way of thinking about it.
Stephen H:Brit, I want to ask you, um, this whole concept of primary and secondary greatness for you being in the NFL. This has had to have been kind of a well, it's almost like a work perception of life in some ways where where you are. In the top percentage of players in the world in a sport, there's obviously a lot of money, a lot of accumulation, a lot of You know, people wanting to appear certain ways. I mean, what, I don't know, it's the exact question I want to ask you around that, but how, I know it's been just an interesting thing for you to grapple with the last couple of years. I mean, how, how have the seven habits, how has this concept helped you? And I know you're not perfect at it necessarily, but, but what's your experience been with that? Cause I think it's, it's a unique experience. There's very small percentage of people that have that.
Stephen MR:Really true.
Britain:Yeah. I honestly, I think that, and maybe it's the tale as old as time kind of adage of when you, when you look around at these, these guys who are making millions of dollars or so successful top percent in the world, some of them literally top one or two in the world at what they do. Um, and. You, you see through personal conversations with them that at times it's just an endless pursuit and endless chase of things that don't bring that peace, that happiness, that security in their lives. And it's just. And it's really fascinating to talk with people who, you know, the quote money can't buy happiness, right? Who people think, Oh, money can buy happiness. Well, no, I've been around people who have enough money to quote unquote buy happiness, but they, you know, there are times when they just don't have it and they, they look for these outside sources. And that's why a lot of them get into reading. That I've had many teammates ask me about the seven habits and I've given the book to many of them, uh, many people talk about this idea without knowing what to call it primary and secondary greatness. Uh, but I think it's just that idea of that the peace in your life doesn't come from accumulation. And so you should still try, try for that accumulation, um, because it's important and it does bring happiness. But I think that that stability and that peace. Um, you need to couple it with that primary greatness. And so I definitely have seen that. I, people assume all the time that because I'm in the NFL, I must be happy and have achieved my dreams. And, and there's still, I feel like with everybody, there's still like this almost emptiness that you feel that. That you only feel as you strive for primary greatness. So I think the power comes in the coupling of the two. Um, because yeah, even in the NFL, right. You, you talk with guys who they still just crave that idea of primary greatness and loving who they are as a person and really respecting themselves and looking in the mirror and being proud of what they're doing and the person they're becoming. And I think that's what the power of the seven habits is in, right? Is it gives people back their lives. I've heard you say that dad. Um, and I think maybe just allude to that a little bit, just the power of the seven habits that you've seen.
Stephen MR:It's powerful. Cause like you're saying, if I can have that private victory, in other words, that I feel like, gosh, I'm, I'm, I'm, true to myself and I know who I am and I'm trying to live my best way that way. If I could start there, there's a power that comes from that. And that gives me the power now to work well with others because I'm secure and I can be more abundant towards others. It's hard to be abundant with others if you don't feel secure yourself. So it's hard to think win win with others if you're just fighting for your win and you don't feel like you've got that sense of, of of peace and security. So that's why the first three habits. You know, moving from dependence to independence, that private victory, that's why it's so powerful because it gives people a sense of security and of that. I'm working on myself and my character. I've tried to lay out my values and I'm trying my best to live to them. And when you do your best at that, there's a sense of peace that comes in a sense of power. That comes from that integrity, that being true to who you are and who you want to be. And again, none of us are there where that's why you're always on the journey. And then now that helps me do the same thing now with other people where I can work well with others and, and go from independence to interdependence and think win win because I feel secure. So now I can try to. Do something better with another person. And I seek first to understand them to be understood habit five. And then I synergize. We, we try to create something bigger, better where synergy is where one plus one equals three or five or 10, something that we create this better than either one of us could do on our own. And that's the power of that, that public victory. And there's a power that comes from that, that we're, we're better together.
Stephen H:All
Stephen MR:and there's power in renewing it. And that's the strength of the seven habits is it takes any of us where we're at and gives us something we can immediately. Work on and, and, and get better at and, and, and gain a sense of, of clarity, of integrity, and a power, a piece of security that comes from this. And, and, and so the seven habits is a great way to operationalize this idea of primary greatness.
Britain:I think that all listeners are struggling with something and just. To start off the habit of be proactive. And that sounds so, so generic, but when you read it, anyone who starts reading that, I think feels this. Empowerment come over them of, okay, I know I'm stressed at my work about this particular thing, but that is outside of my control. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I've learned. And in the NFL is there's so much outside of your control. I mean, I'm competing with guys who are bigger than everyone's bigger than me. I'm competing with guys who are bigger than me. Faster than me, stronger than me, everything. And. But this idea of being proactive is focusing on only what you can control what's on your circle of influence. And you, you learn to be okay with the things outside of that. And that brings that power to you is like, I'm not a victim to whatever's happened to me, to the situation around me at work or in my job. Um, at least my mental state doesn't have to be because I have a few, even if it's only a few things I can control. I'm going to master these. I'm going to dominate them. And you learn, you are okay with the results because things outside of your control, they don't affect you nearly as much, even if it directly affects you. It doesn't affect you internally. So you feel that power regardless of what's going on outside of you.
Stephen MR:I agree with this Brit that, that habit one. Be proactive and recognizing that between stimulus and response, there is a space we can choose our response, we can choose to focus on our values and not just respond to the circumstances and we work in our circle of influence and not our circle of concern that we can't. Impact that's empowering because it suddenly makes it easier to deal with life's injustices and all the things that we can't do anything about from the weather to the economy, to the fact that there might be people that are better than us or faster than us, stronger than us. Okay, well, what can I do in my circle of influence and to grow that circle of influence? Cause when you focus there, that circle of influence grows, but when you focus on the external circle of concern. All the things that are out there that our circle of influence actually shrinks and we don't feel that same sense of, of power that comes. So just so useful that simple idea, be pro, be proactive,
Stephen H:I feel like each of the habits, depending on the season in your life. Can all of a sudden make a huge impact on you. Obviously habit one, be proactive is one that's universal for everyone. But for me throughout my life, and especially as I've studied the seven habits more seriously over the last decade, it seems like each of the habits can kind of grab, grab ahold of you at different times in your life, depending on your situation. And there's so much power in them. So that's actually, uh, one of the listener questions dad that came in, Actually, it was, it was multiple listeners. Um, they had a question for you personally, and, uh, one is from, who was it from, uh, Alexa?
Britain:Yeah. Alexa cleverly. We actually got this from quite a few people, but Alexa was the, was the main one.
Stephen H:Yeah. So she, she asked, which habit does he think is the hardest to live?
Stephen MR:I would say, uh, almost like your answer, Steven, that at different times, a different one might pop to the top of the list. Where suddenly, uh, what's going on in my life, a different habit will pop up. And it could be this, you know, for example, think win win sounds really easy. It sounds good. And then you're put into an environment and situation where there's only so much resource that can go around. There's only so much. And it's hard suddenly to. Think when, when, when it looks like I'm in a win, I'm in a, you know, win, lose environment in situation. I could do the same with, putting first things first, that can be really hard. It sounds easy to put first things first, but then life happens and all these proximate things hit you. And second things can easily become. Right there. They're proximate. They're popular. They're right in front of you and and so on. And, you know, seek first to understand then to be understood. It's just human nature to want to be understood first. And, and right now we're in a world where everyone's fighting for air to be understood. So, to say, I'm going to try to understand you first when I. I feel like I'm not even understood that, that can be really hard. So, you know, any of them can become the hardest. I still would, for me, it's still have it one as, as, as the foundational habit, be proactive, but it's so easy to become reactive in my language where I start blaming, you know, he makes me so mad, wait, does he makes me so mad, like I don't have a choice. And it's very easy to become reactive. It's very easy to focus on my circle of concern, not my circle of influence and, and, and to blame. And, and so for me, I come back to have it one, but at different times in my life, I could have answered with any of the seven habits.
Stephen H:Actually this morning, before we interviewed, I, I listened to, The back end of seven habits, one of the additions where Papa has like 15 common questions, people ask him and someone actually asked him that question, like, what's the hardest habit? And he says, habit five, hands down seek, seek first to understand them to be understood. And it was so funny the way that he said it. He's like, People just want to talk about their feelings and do it and I just want to be efficient and, you know, so it was funny to hear that because because we all knew we all knew him, but it was, it's great too. It's not like he had maybe mastered the 7 habits in the sense of teaching them, but he openly admitted. Not in living them, like it was, you know, even for the author, it was a constant journey for him. It was something you kind of never arrived to, right, of living the seven habits perfectly. He struggled, he struggled with it too.
Stephen MR:he did. In fact, uh, I'll share this. One time I was with, uh, with dad, he was asked, uh, do you live the seven habits? And he said about 80 percent of the time. And he basically was saying, look, I'm, I, I struggled too, but I always course correct, he said, but I always course correct, get back on track. You know, this is hard. It's very easy to become reactive. It's very easy to not listen. It's hard to listen when you feel like you're right already. You come in thinking I'm right. And then you might just go through the motions of listening. Cause again, the paradigm shift is you don't listen to reply. You listen to understand and there's a difference between understanding and just replying. And that, that's hard. And it's very easy to just kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait your turn. Be patient. Listen that way, but not really to understand. That is a hard one. So I can see why he, why he would say that. And he always felt like habit five, Was the most significant kind of breakthrough in, in human interaction. Seek first to understand, then to be understood because human nature is so much the opposite. I also would say this, that someone asks, well, what's the most difficult habit? I would just say, what's the one that. You're struggling with the most, you know, to someone and, you know, maybe make that the number one habit for you right now. And that might change over time for any of us.
Britain:I love it. I I'm gonna cause we have quite a few questions. I'm just gonna, we can do some quick responses to these if we want. Um, Kind of out of order and things. Nolan Faley from California asks, um, if you had to pick an eighth habit previously unmentioned, what would it be?
Stephen MR:We got an answer to this because, Steven ended up publishing a book called the eighth habit and it wasn't that he forgot one cause he really, the seven habits is quite complete and whole. The way it's sequenced and structured, but the eighth habit, there's like another dimension to it. So it's, it's less than I forgot to have it. Here's a new one. That's the same as the, you know, the other seven, just another one that was forgotten, but more a new dimension that adds dimension to all other seven habits. And it was this, it was the eighth habit. Find your voice. And inspire others to find theirs. And so it's like another dimension in the sense that it's another manifestation of the private victory, leading to a public victory, the private victory, which is you find your voice, who you are, what you're about, the primary greatness and your contribution, your uniqueness, find your voice. And then once you find it, now work with others, inspire others. Define theirs. So it's like lighting the candle. That candle once lit can light a lot of other candles. You can help others find their voice too. Then you have a ripple effect on people. So it's really kind of just adding a dimension of saying it's a, it's an upward spiral of living these seven habits and then helping others live them. And you apply it to yourself. You apply it in your relationships and it becomes this ongoing virtuous upward spiral of, of integrity and power and then impact on others. Find your voice, inspire others to find theirs. So that's the eighth habit.
Stephen H:Another question that came in from, uh, Ryan in North Carolina, and I actually know Ryan. He's a good friend of mine, really insightful person. This was his question. He said, as the seven habits book ages. And the world changes faster than ever. Do you think the application of these habits has changed over the years?
Stephen MR:Yeah. Great question, Ryan. Um, yes and no. Um, yes. In this sense, it's maybe more relevant today than ever before, because you know, like I just used to have at five right now in our society, no one feels understood. No one's listening or if they're listening, they're not listening with intent to understand. They're just listening with intent to reply. Look at our politics. Look at our, look at the, you know, the conflict that's going on and, and, and people don't feel understood. So is there ever been a more important time to apply? To live habit five of seeking first to understand that's a gift. That's like giving someone air, you know, what oxygen is to the body. Understanding is to the heart, to the soul, to the person. And when someone doesn't feel understood, they're fighting for air. If you will, psychological air, emotional air. And to understand another person is like giving them a gift of, of air of, of, you know, they feel heard. You may not agree. Understanding does not mean agreement just means you're trying to understand. And, and that is so important today. Um, habit one is so important today, uh, when there's, you know, so much outside of our circle of influence. Again, it's always mattered, but maybe more so today, but also have it one speaks of the unique human gifts and endowments of independent will and self-awareness and creative imagination and conscience, and in an age of artificial intelligence. This is genuine human intelligence, wisdom and in and, and unique human gifts, conscience and the like and, and self-awareness. It is so important at, in a time like today and and I could go on and on with each of the seven habits. So it's a great question, but I find that because the seven habits are based upon principles and principles are timeless and changeless. Now the application of those principles will change. You know, the practices will change, but right now there's so much change going on, it puts a premium on what's changed less and, and people want an anchor during a time of change. And so that's why, you know, your primary greatness of who you are, your character, that's really important as you're navigating all these changes that are impacting and whip sign us. To focus on what's changeless and the seven habits are changeless principles from the inside out. And so maybe because there's so much change, it's even more important to have that, which is changeless principles. Seven habits or each habit is based upon a principle that's changeless. Now the applications. Adapt and respond, but we want that changeless core more than ever before.
Britain:we had a couple of questions that I think you just answered Dr. Moore from New Jersey. Hopefully that answers your question kind of about, about the same. Um, now I think it'd be good to really quick reference just that, you know, we've named this podcast paradigm shifting books, and that is a phrase that comes from our grandfather, the paradigms, right? He talks so much about paradigms. Uh, and that's, I think part of the beginning of seven habits. So if you could explain kind of what he meant by paradigms, why they're so central to the seven habits. Um, And how you'd recommend people control their paradigm shift, their paradigms, just the whole, like the whole concept,
Stephen MR:Steven didn't invent the word. Um, it's a scientific word, right? That started with Thomas Kuhn's book, the structure of scientific revolutions and how you have a paradigm shift, You know, and it's really true in science where, you know you, you, you have to understand something and then you get new data and it shifts the whole paradigm, the way of thinking about it, so paradigm shift from the Greek. Paradigma. It means a mental map or model. And this was always important to Papa that he would, he would say this. He'd say, we don't see the world as it is, but rather as we are our head. Creates our world, the mindset, the map we have of the world helps us interpret it. And if you have a map, you know, a map is meant to describe the territory. We hardly use maps anymore today because of our phones. You know, we just plug it in and GPS takes us there. But. You know, think of a map that's trying to describe the territory. So I might have a map of a city that lays it out, but what if you had an inaccurate map of that city that was inaccurate and you're trying to follow the map, you know, not using your GPS, just following a map and, but it was inaccurate or even if the, what if the, what was entered, what was in the GPS was inaccurate, it was not an accurate map of the territory that would lead you You know,
Stephen H:right.
Stephen MR:destination. You, you would get frustrated and, and, um, and so you got to have an accurate map of the territory. So this idea of a paradigm of how we view the world was so important. Because it guides and it predicts and it explains as the power of a paradigm. And it's also the fastest way to, have greater impact and to change your behavior. Yeah. Dad used to always say this, that. If you want to make small changes, change your behavior. But if you want to make big changes, change your paradigm, how you see the world. Get an accurate map, a more complete map or more whole map of the world, of people, of leadership, you know, and that's the idea. So a paradigm shifting book, I love the name of your podcast,
Stephen H:Um,
Stephen MR:it's saying, look, if we can get a, have a paradigm shift, get a complete, a more complete, more accurate map
Stephen H:playbook.
Stephen MR:of leadership,
Stephen H:The playbook.
Stephen MR:everything differently. It comes from that. And in a sense, each of The seven habits is a little bit of a paradigm shift from traditional thinking.
Stephen H:easy
Stephen MR:example of, you know, habit one, be proactive. The, an incomplete, inaccurate paradigm is that I am a product of my circumstances, a more complete, whole, accurate map is no, I'm a product of my choices, not my, I'm influenced by my circumstances. And heavily influenced, but ultimately I'm a product of my choices. I can choose my response and so forth. And so that's the idea of a paradigm. It's how we view the world. And when you have a paradigm of something, then you, you interpret things differently. You, you filter out evidence that doesn't fit your paradigm and you magnify the evidence that does. And so you literally read things into it based upon that paradigm. So always start with the paradigm. That's right. He starts the book with looking at something and someone sees, you know, a young lady and someone sees this old lady on this little map of viewing things and they're both right, but it's your conditioning, how you view the world that influences how you interpret the world. So we gotta, we often never check our assumptions, our paradigms, and that's the idea. Start with that. So powerful when you do.
Stephen H:You articulated perfectly the reason why we called this paradigm shifting books is, that's what I have always been struck with with with with Papa's work is he'll always start start everything off talking about paradigms. And the way you see the problem is the problem. And I think so many other people are focused on what's, what's the quote. It's for every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil. Only one is hacking. Well, only one is hacking at the root or what's the exact quote.
Stephen MR:Yeah, is, is by Thoreau for every thousand hacking at the leaves. There is only one hacking at the roots
Stephen H:At the roots. Yeah. And
Stephen MR:There's only one striking at the roots. So we're trying to go to the roots, go to the roots. Stephen used to always say that, you know, seven habits, that the key thing we're trying to teach here is paradigms. And principles to have a more complete, more accurate paradigm. I've learned about paradigms that they're generally less that is right and wrong, you know, good and bad paradigms, but more, more or less complete. You know, some paradigms are just less complete. Like, how do you view people? Do you view them just as economic beans, just a body? Well, that's not inaccurate because people do have a body. Okay. And they do care. They, they want to get paid. They are economic beans, but they're whole people. They also have a heart. So they want to care and to love and to belong. They have a mind. So they want to grow and to develop. They have a spirit. They want to contribute and add value and make a difference, have significance. So it's more complete to view someone as a whole person and not just an economic bean. So an incomplete paradigm is, Hey, people are just, all they care about is money. A more complete paradigm is they are a whole person. They do care about money, but they also care about relationships and about growing and about contribution. That's more complete.
Britain:what I've always found fascinating with Papa's work on paradigms is how quickly a paradigm shift changes, just everything, your behaviors, right? What's the quote where he says something will change your behavior faster than focusing on change of behavior will change your behavior. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Stephen MR:Yeah. They're the change in paradigm will change your behavior a lot faster than a focus on behavior.
Britain:Yeah,
Stephen MR:to change the behavior, change your paradigm.
Britain:Change your paradigm, which will then in turn change your behavior faster than just trying to white knuckle it saying I'm gonna. Wake up at 7 a. m. And I'm going to do this. Um, a quick example that I use is I hate, I hated weightlifting always. I it's just, there's nothing worse, right? I'd rather go out in the field, run some routes, but I was always so small and I hated weightlifting. And I hated when the coaches would pick a general weight for the receiver group. And. Here I am in the same group as some of these guys who can lift twice as much as me. So I hated lifting. Um, and I always dreaded having these lifts. And then one day I just looked at it. Uh, someone told me they said the best ability is availability and you have to lift so that you're available on the field. And so that in literally two seconds shifted my paradigm of weightlifting from getting strong so I can bench 225 pounds and block a linebacker to. This helps me stay healthy and stay on the field. Literally within five seconds, my entire paradigm shifted and my behavior shifted. I wanted to go to lifts. I started adding more lifts to the end of every lift, just to focus on these small muscle groups to help me stay healthy and for injury prevention. And it was amazing how that in literally five seconds, my whole paradigm shifted my behavior. I got excited to go to lifts. I got excited to. Lift extra just for the focus of injury prevention. Uh, and I think that's a perfect example of just how a shift in paradigm of how you view a certain situation completely changes your behavior, uh, way more than just focusing on your behavior.
Stephen H:Well, and that's for Brit, for you. I know that's, that's like a 10 year paradigm you had because you hated lifting
Britain:I hated lifting. Oh my God.
Stephen H:Yeah. But that is, that's a really, I, I haven't heard you talk about that before. That's a really good example of a paradigm shift will immediately switch your change, your attitude and behavior. And sometimes it can be instant, right? And other times it's, it's, it's more of a, more of a process. Yeah. So yeah, Dad, is there anything around paradigm shifting? Like if say someone's listening and they're like, I, you know, I I'd like to shift my paradigm around, around, around something in their life or on the way that they see themselves or see others. Is there anything practical around, you know, around shifting your paradigm? Cause Seems like in that moment, Brit had like a, it's like a, almost like an aha moment revelation instant. And I think there's probably times in our lives when that happens, but probably more often than not, it's, it's maybe incremental and maybe I'm wrong, but love, love to hear your perspective on that.
Stephen MR:And, and, um, you know, and Brit yours in a sense with a 10 year paradigm shift, but then it was instant how it happened when suddenly you heard this, that'll make myself available. And suddenly you're viewing lifting differently. I love it. It's a great example. I would say this that, so if the fastest way to change your behavior is to change your paradigm, the question is, what's the fastest way to change your paradigm? Well, here's a way of thinking about it, here's a practical tip. is. Um, change your name, change your role, you know, so see yourself differently, see the role differently. So for example, when, you know, Brit, you got a, um, you've got your young son and think of how your world changed overnight when Nelson was born overnight, you went from, just, uh, a husband to now, suddenly you're also a father and you got a new name, I'm a dad and a new role, I'm a parent. suddenly that impacts how you view everything with that child, because you got a new name, your dad, you're a parent and a new role, new responsibility. And so I've learned, you know, like with leadership, rather than see yourself as the boss. See yourself as a steward, have a stewardship for those that I'm leading to serve them. And suddenly it's less about me and for more about them. New name. I'm not the boss. I'm a steward and new role. I'm a leader. And so you change your name, change your role. Um, Papa used to all the time talk about, uh, um, like Mano La Mancha, Don Quixote. And, and how he would give a new name to Alfonza, the, the, woman of the street and Don Quixote came in and said, you are, you're, you're Dulcinea. This extraordinary person, and it's a new name he gave her and she began to see herself differently. In a new role, she had a paradigm shift about who she was as a person. You know, I look at the eighth habit. That's a way of saying, you know, find your voice and inspire others to find theirs. So that they, you find your voice, suddenly you have a new name and a new role for myself, for my life. I found my voice. I found my contribution, found this difference I want to make. So sometimes that's going to be a very practical ways. Other times it happens just, you know, in a variety of different things. I had my own where I got bogged down with all these people asking for what I called quote favors, asking for help, asking for an endorsement, asking for all these different things. I just get bombarded with all these favors, but I was looking at it. Transactionally.
Stephen H:format
Stephen MR:And then I had a paradigm shift of, here's a chance to serve. Life is about service. service above self interest. And I suddenly went from I'm doing favors transactionally for people to I'm serving. These are acts of service. It's not transactional. I have nothing, I expect nothing in return. Learned this from Steve Young, the great NFL quarterback. Calls it the law of love, where, you know, you see people As he believes God sees him and you're expecting nothing in return and you're seeking another's healing. And I began to see suddenly I didn't view it as favors, but rather I'm trying to help another seek another's healing. And I expected nothing in return. So paradigm shift. I heard this from Steve that totally impacted me so they can happen instantly. You know, dad tells the one of on the subway where
Stephen H:couple
Stephen MR:has this instant paradigm shift, where he sees these kids misbehaving
Stephen H:I'll
Stephen MR:And and bothering everyone on the subway. And, And then the dad is there doing nothing about it. And, Stephen was so bothered by this. So he finally goes up and says, Hey, control your kids. Can't you see him? They're out of control. And the man said, well, yeah, you're right. I'm so sorry. We're just coming from the hospital where their mother, my wife just passed away. And I guess they don't know how to deal with that. Neither do I, frankly, suddenly instant paradigm shift
Stephen H:sure. I was
Stephen MR:suddenly his behavior changed. My dad behavior changed to how can I help versus judging the person
Stephen H:do that.
Stephen MR:so they can be instant like yours was Brit.
Stephen H:and write it
Stephen MR:They can, you know, like what I had when I heard Steve Young described.
Stephen H:gotta keep
Stephen MR:How to view people rather than transactionally, but transformationally,
Stephen H:not good.
Stephen MR:and, or they could happen over time as we start to think about things differently and, and shift paradigms. But that's the power of a paradigm. It changes behavior faster than anything else. And it impacts change faster than anything else. That's why to have, you know, paradigm shifting books. These are books that are. Big books, big ideas with big paradigms that if we can understand this more complete, more accurate paradigm that could shift our entire world. So I love it. I love what you're doing. It's exciting. It's fun.
Stephen H:We appreciate it, dad. And we, we've loved having you on again. I get the feeling we're going to have you back on sooner than later. Um, and, uh, and I just want to also acknowledge, uh, all the listeners who wrote in questions. That was great. We'll do it next time. We'll do it, uh, further in advance so we can get, um, more engagement, but man, we had quite a few come in and that was, that was awesome to see that. So we're
Britain:And sorry,
Stephen H:yeah,
Britain:was just going to say sorry to those who we didn't answer your questions in the recap video. We might go back and do a couple of those ones.
Stephen MR:Yeah, that's probably my fault. I tend to give long answers and, and, uh, as opposed to quick ones.
Stephen H:it's fine. But we just, yeah, we just want to acknowledge that. So, um, maybe that we always like to end the episode around, you know, and we, we've already done some, but like around an application of this. So kind of the application question for this one would be, since the premise of the book, seven habits is around how to be an effective person. Where, where should one start? Outside of reading the book itself. So obviously that's, that's an obvious answer is like read the seven habits, dive deep into this. It'll, it'll, it'll truly change your life and your paradigm. But, but what, what, how would you answer that? If someone wants to be a more effective person, I mean, where do they, where do they start?
Stephen MR:I'm glad that you did say, read the book, because I try to read it literally about every year. Every time I read it, I experienced it through the lens I'm looking through now. Through my challenges, my problems today. And I find this is such a useful construct. Um, Jim Collins in the forward that he wrote for seven habits said, this is like what Steven R. Covey did for human effectiveness is the equivalent of, of a windows or what Apple did an operating system that made technology accessible, usable. Um, and because it was a human interface. It just makes it accessible. And these principles have always been there. The seven habits makes it accessible. So, you know, read the book, reread the book in the new 30 year. Anniversary edition has got Sean, your uncle, my brother, he wrote all these additional insights. So it's, it's the seven habits as written. And then he, he gives some added insights to it. It's really, really useful. So that that'd be one. But then I'm going to come back to habit one because it's just so practical. And if you do two things first is watch your language. And try to use proactive language. You know, I choose to, instead of I have to, and avoid, he makes me this, or he makes me that, or blaming, pointing, but rather, Just really look at your language of, I choose this and I am responsible as not, it's their fault, his fault, her fault, and so forth. I just find that the language is where it creeps in first. If you become aware of the language, it can really be helpful. And then just focus on working within your circle of influence. Doesn't mean we're not aware of our circle of concern. No, we are, we're concerned about it. It's just focusing there doesn't produce. Doesn't produce outcomes. When we focus on our circle of concern, our circle of influence actually diminishes. But if we focus on our circle of influence and work at the edge of our circle of influence, so we, yes, we do the things that we can directly control, but even those that we can kind of partly influence, that's kind of at the edge. We maybe don't completely control, but we could influence it. So it's a circle of influence, not of just control, but of influence. We can find that growing and expanding and you're doing it, Brett, with what you have to do. You're doing it, Stephen, with the work that you're doing in your professional life. I try to do it as well, but that is just maybe the most immediately practical application of the seven habits. Between what happens to us and, you know, the stimulus and our response, there is a space and we can choose our response based upon our values, not just our, our moods or our circumstances, but that takes proactivity. We pause, we choose our response. We focus on our circle of influence and not be reactive with just immediate circle of concern. It's just so useful. So practical, so empowering. If that's all you did, you'll find it'll give you a little bit of a private victory, and then you can go from that victory to another victory to another victory and get a greater sense of integrity, of clarity, of power that, you know, I am who I say I am, and I can do something about this. And that will really be empowering for your life and be a foundation to continue to ripple out. So that's a great starting point for, I think all of us watch your language, use proactive language, not reactive language. I choose to, and I have to, and then focus on your circle of influence rather than your circle of concern. And you watch your circle of influence grow and grow and grow. And then as that happens, we have that private victory. And when we have a private victory, we can then have a public victory. It truly is inside.
Stephen H:Huh.
Stephen MR:habits is that it's inside out.
Britain:Thank you so much, dad, seriously. And thank you to everybody who's listened. Um, we were excited to have you on dad and we hope that this has been good and short enough and effective enough that people stuck with us the whole way.
Stephen MR:Hey, we went an hour and look at it this way. Bobby used to go three hours with, with, with me, two hours with you guys. I'm only going one hour. So I hope so. I hope there was.
Stephen H:this has been great. Thanks, dad. Love you. And, uh, yeah. Thanks again, listeners for, for tuning in. We'll, we'll be back with, uh, an application episode here in, uh, in the next couple of weeks.
Stephen MR:Can I say this? I love both of you. I'm proud of both of you. I think this is amazing what you're doing and I'm glad that in focusing on these paradigm shifting books, you're including, um, our family's books, you know, uh, uh, Papa's book, seven habits. Cause I think this is, is the foundational book for, for any individual in life. And it's just so basic to, to, to learn these principles from the inside out. So this is great what you're doing. I'm proud of you both. Love you.
Britain:Thanks
Stephen H:Thanks, dad. Love you.