Paradigm Shifting Books
“What are the must-read books for personal and professional development?” If you’ve ever wondered this, you’ve come to the right place. Join us as we dive into 40 essential books that everyone should read. Hear directly from the authors as they share the key paradigms and principles necessary to unlock your full potential. Hosted by brothers Stephen H. Covey and Britain Covey, this podcast is your gateway to transformative insights and growth.
Paradigm Shifting Books
Book #14 Trust & Inspire by Stephen M.R. Covey
Exploring the book ‘Trust and Inspire: How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others’ by Stephen M.R. Covey.
We have a leadership crisis today, where even though our world has changed drastically, our leadership style has not. Most organizations, teams, schools, and families today still operate from a model of “command and control,” focusing on hierarchies and compliance from people. But because of the changing nature of the world, the workforce, work itself, and the choices we have for where and how to work and live, this way of leading is drastically outdated.
Stephen M.R. Covey has made it his life’s work to understand trust in leadership and organizations. In his newest and most transformative book, Trust and Inspire, he offers a simple yet bold solution: to shift from this “command and control” model to a leadership style of “trust and inspire.” People don’t want to be managed; they want to be led.
In this episode, Stephen M.R. Covey takes us on a deep dive into the origins and key paradigms of the ‘Trust and Inspire’ leadership model, contrasting it with the traditional ‘command and control’ approach. He shares powerful insights drawn from his experiences, highlighting the value of creating stewardship agreements and demonstrating how this new leadership style can transform our ability to lead. This conversation offers both practical advice and inspiration for aspiring leaders and anyone looking to enhance their interpersonal relationships.
00:00 Intro
01:24 Genesis of Trust & Inspire
05:36 Key paradigms of Trust & Inspire
13:34 What Trust & Inspire is not
26:52 Real world examples
43:18 Leadership vs. management
53:59 Practical applications: stewardship agreements
If you like this podcast and the books we discuss it would mean a lot if you left a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts ;)
All right, everybody. Uh, this is Britain here. Welcome to another episode of our podcast paradigm shifting books. Uh, this week, once again, we have on our father, Stephen Covey. Uh, we've had him on before. We can't help it. He's great. And he's a lot better than we are. So we're going to have him on again. I also had to point out that, uh, this was me talking Britain because I had multiple comments last time saying they can, it literally sounds like one person's doing the podcast because we have such a similar voice DT. So,
Stephen:Yeah, that's funny, but I've, I've heard the exact same comment, um, from a few people that say I can't really differentiate between when Britton or Steven is talking.
Britain:Yeah, my, my, uh, one of my coaches said, it sounds like you say, all right, Brin, now this, and then Brin answers the questions or Brin asks and answers. Anyways. Um, so yeah, we'll, we'll try and distinguish a little bit. Maybe I'll talk with an accent, but, we're happy to have our father on again. This time is for his new book, trust and inspire. And if you have listened to the previous episode, when we talked a little bit about it, uh, perhaps. Um, you can be excited about some of these awesome new things we're going to talk about. All right, dad. So we want to start this off by first talking about what the Genesis of trust and inspire is. Obviously we had you on for speed of trust. Did trust and inspire flow out of speed of trust? Um, where did this come from?
Dad:Well, first of all, I love being with the two of you, my son. So it's exciting to be on this podcast with you again. So thanks for inviting me. And, and, uh, I think, uh, you guys are amazing and it's a lot of fun. So trust and inspire it. It actually, it's somewhat came at a speed of trust a little bit, you know, doing a lot of work with organizations all around the world on speed of trust, but. It also had its origin really, the roots of it kind of was in parallel with speed of trust. It was back when, when, um, your grandfather, you know, my dad, Stephen R. Covey, your grandpa, when he was alive and we would do these, these, uh, uh, you know, seminars together, these big public programs, they'd get like a thousand people and he'd take three fourths of the day and talk about the eighth habit at the time. And I take a fourth of the day and talk about the speed of trust. But it was during this that, that, um, your grandfather, my dad, he would, he would do these contrasts and he would ask people these questions at every one of these seminars. He'd ask this question. And by the way, there'd be like a thousand people in the room representing, you know, all levels of management and all kinds of organizations from businesses to government, to education, to, uh, to, uh, Athletics, healthcare, everything, not profit, not for profit. So he'd ask this question. He say, how many of you in the audience believe that the vast majority of your workforce has far more talent, creativity, ingenuity, capacity, and capability than their current job requires. Or even allows them to contribute. How many has, you know, how many of you have more capacity than you're giving? And almost every hand in the room would go up that there's a lot more capacity inside of people than we're getting out of them. Then the second question would be, and how many of you are under intense pressure to do more with less and less? And again, almost every hand would go up in the room. And it was just a juxtaposition of those two questions that here we are under all this pressure, we got to do more, um, than ever before with less resources. And yet we're not tapping anywhere near into what people are capable of giving. There's a lot more inside of people that we're not getting out. And to me, that that's a leadership issue that, that, you know, what's wrong with the way that we're leading, that we're not unleashing the potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people. And we're leaving it untapped. That's a leadership issue. And I began to think about this and come up with all these contrasts at the time. I didn't call it, command and control and trust and inspire until later. But I started to have these contrasts of, you know, kind of the traditional way of leading. It doesn't tap into all this talent. And then this new way of leading that taps and unleashes all this talent that's inside of people and came up with all these contrasts, but it was really doing those seminars with, with, uh, with Papa, with your, your grandfather that, you know, got me thinking this way that the way that we're leading is not working. And it's not tapping into the potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people. We got to lead in a new way. So that's really the original Genesis. And then as I taught Speed of Trust over time, where I'm teaching people how to build trust, I also gained some new insights that became part of Trust and Inspire. So that's kind of goes way back to the original origin. And it starts with, uh, With, uh, your grandfather.
Stephen:What are, what would you say are the key? And it sounds like you've touched on it a little bit, but what are. What are the key? What's the key paradigm of trust and inspire or maybe key paradigms? Maybe, maybe it's multiple. Um, just wanted to ask that up front. As, as you see it,
Dad:Yeah. I think there's a few key paradigms. I do think it's multiple. So here's one is that the world has changed all around us in profound ways. And yet our style of leadership has not changed, or at least it's not kept paced with this changing world. Most people are still operating out of the old model of leadership. the traditional, more hierarchical model. I call it command and control. Now what's happened is they've gotten better at it. It's become more advanced, more sophisticated. I call it enlightened command and control, which is a better version of it. But still we view people still too much like things. We're just trying to get better at it. You know, if you, if you play music in the dairy, And the cow produces more milk. We're almost like, you know, trying to play music in the dairy to get more productivity out of people. We've become better, more kind and gentler, but it's still a command and control paradigm. And we got to catch leadership up to this changing world. That's one paradigm that we got to shift our leadership to be relevant for our new day with these younger generations, with, uh, the changes in the workplace, with all these changes going on and the need for collaboration with disruption everywhere. We got to lead in a new way that's relevant. That's one paradigm. A second paradigm is that our, our, our intent usually is good. We want to bring out the best in people, but our style often gets in the way of our intent. And you know, intent is kind of what we're hoping for. Um, it's really what we want. Style is though how we're showing up. And so our intent is usually good, but our style, how we show up often gets in the way of our intent. And then finally, maybe another paradigm is that, um, we need, you know, most significant, um, break throughs. Our break withs, that's what Papa taught your, your, your grandfather, a break with traditional theory. So we need a break with the traditional command and control into a break, you know, a break with that whole approach. And so what I'm talking about is not different in degree. That's why I call it authoritarian command and control. And then we may be different in degree as. We become an enlightened command and control, but we need something that is different in kind, a break with that old way of doing it. And that's trust and inspire. It's a whole new paradigm of how we view people and how we view leadership. It's a more complete paradigm of people and of leadership, a more accurate paradigm, more relevant paradigm than the limited command and control paradigm of people and of leadership. And so, Those that's another big paradigm shift that's in the book, you know, how, how do we view people? How do we view leadership? And I try to introduce a more complete, a more whole, a more accurate view of people and of leadership. And that's a different, that's a break with the traditional thinking that's, you know, that's trapped us in command and control all around us.
Britain:Yeah. Oh, I love it. Um, I, I really do love just the, the, the simple idea that the world has changed so much in the past. I don't know, however many years, 20 years, whatever it is, but the leadership style hasn't quite kept up with it. Um, sorry, the lights are turning off.
Stephen:it's not,
Britain:Sorry. You might have to clip this one, T.
Stephen:no, we're going to keep it. Britt, Britt, Britt is in the middle of, uh, the season, obviously with the Eagles right now. And so he's doing a lot of these interviews at the Eagles facility and the lights flickered on and off. So Britt
Britain:we're, we're keeping that in the podcast. All right. Sure. Yeah,
Stephen:we're keeping it in. So Brett has to occasionally get up and wave his arms around in the, in probably in the receiver's room at the Eagles facility. So
Britain:I'm in the Eagles receivers room, uh, right now, and it turns off the film room. So anyways, data, uh, I, uh, I think before maybe we, we jump into a couple of very specific things in the book. Um, I wanted to know, why do you think it's important to. Name the new style of leadership to kind of give a name to this new style, trust and inspire. You know, you mentioned command and control is the name you've given to the, the older style. I really like that. You give a name to it. Why do you think that is important?
Dad:I think it's important that we're not only clear what we need to move away from, But what we need to move toward and to, and I think most people get the idea of command and control. You know, you say the words, you know, he's all, he's a command and control leader, he's a, you know, that, that kind of like the traditional hierarchical top down, just barking up the orders. And, and micromanaging sometimes that type of thing. So that's clear of what we, and I'm saying we need to move away from that because people don't respond very well to command and control, especially the younger generations, you know, Gen Z, your generation, millennia, millennials, and you know what? Actually, every generation, even mine, baby boomers and, and Gen X, no one likes it, it's just that we're more accepting
Britain:I was going to say my generation just won't show up to work the next day.
Dad:Yeah. your generation just doesn't respond and you know, you don't you don't accept it. My generation accepts it. They don't like it though But we accept it
Stephen:And us millennials are like caught in the middle. I
Dad:yeah I'm like caught in the middle and and then GNX is a little bit more like the baby boomers on this they kind of Deal with it. They don't like it either So so, um, but when I saw it when I say command and control most people get it And most people don't like to be, you know, micromanaged and they don't, they don't like the command and control style. So I'm, it's one thing to say, okay, we need to move away from this. Great. But what do we need to move toward? And if you, you know, there's a, there's a Greek expression that the beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms. So we've got to name it rather than just say, we got to have a new way to lead. We do have need a new way to lead in a new world of work rather than just saying, Generically a new way to lead. I think we need to name it. So in contrast to command and control, I'm naming it trust and inspire. You know, again, three words in contrast, in contrast to what we're moving from, to what we're moving toward. I think by naming it and if the name itself, um, gives you a sense of aspiration and where we're going and it does trust and inspire, that's helpful actually. To make progress and moving towards it. And I, so I think it's, it's not enough to know where we're moving from. We've got to know what we're moving toward and we need to name it and describe it. And I think the best way to do it is by contrast from command and control to trust and inspire. That's the kind of leadership that's needed today.
Stephen:agree. And I love, I love the name trust and inspire. I feel like one of the geniuses of your book, dad, is that you have named the new style of leadership. Um, one of the things I want to address up front before we get into a few more specifics is. What let's, let's talk about what trust and inspire is not because I know a lot of people when they hear trust and inspire, I think the initial reaction for a lot of people, not everyone, but for a lot of people is, oh, this is just a feel good. know, let's, let's talk, let's talk about, yeah, let's be nice to people and this kind of stuff. But, but that's, that's actually not what Trust and Inspire actually is. So, so maybe address, and I know you talk about this a lot, but what, I mean, what, what is Trust and Inspire is, is not soft, right?
Britain:but really fast. I, I wanted to interject that. Yeah, I also agree and have heard, um, just, I think when a lot of people hear this, they might think, I see how that's relevant, but not in my industry because I play in football. I'm in a football, you know, and, and not just that, but other places. And I think that a lot of people, it's easy to see this and say, that's relevant. I could see that, but not in this industry, this industry, you know, whatever it is. So yeah.
Dad:Yeah. Yeah. No, great. These are, this is really important because people, when they hear trust, inspire, they like the idea. It feels aspirational. It feels good, but some do wonder, is this relevant in my world, in my situation, my context, like you said, Britain, my industry alike. So what, what it is, what it is not, here's what it is in just one sentence. Trust inspire is a style of leadership that gets results. You always got to get results. It's a style of leadership that gets results. In a way that grows people and inspires trust. So we're not just getting the result, which we want. We're also developing people, growing people, unleashing people, unleashing talent, and we're building trust along the way. We're bringing people with us, but here's what it is not. It's not soft or weak. Now, trust and inspire is strong. I think it's the strongest form of leadership. You can demonstrate very high expectations, high standards, high demands of people. It's just that you start by seeing the greatness inside of people. So you believe it's in them. You're going to try to bring it out of them. And if you didn't see that greatness, you wouldn't be as demanding of people. So it's not soft or weak. No, it's strong. Trust and inspire is not, um, a lack of control. No, you just shift the control from you having to hover over and micromanage someone to instead building an agreement together around the trust that you're extending to people. And then it's the agreement that governs. So you don't have to micromanage the agreement governs, but there's expectations and accountability built into the agreement. When you extend trust to people, it's not a lack of structure. You can still have all the structure that you need. It's not a lack of vision or direction. No, you could be a very visionary, trust and inspire leader, have all kinds of visions of what, you know, what you're doing. It's not a lack of high expectations or accountability. low expectations inspire no one. See, I think this, I think that sometimes when people hear trust inspire and they view it as soft, they're misinterpreting it. They're, they're viewing it as kind of like the opposite of command and control. I think trust inspire instead of being the opposite is a third alternative to it. Here's the way to look at it. So if command and control means excessively hands on in my leadership style, I'm, I'm excessively hands on. The opposite of that, I would call abdicate. Abdicate and abandon. Abdicate and abandon. That's excessively hands off. There's no leadership there. There's no vision, no direction, no expectations, no accountability. That's just kind of whatever you do is fine. That's not leadership. Trust and inspire instead is hand in hand. We're doing this with people, but we're doing this with expectations with accountability. See a trust and inspire leader can be strong without being forceful. They can be demanding without being, um, Um, demeaning, they can be, um, in charge. And have control without being controlling. They can be detail oriented without being distrusting. They can be authoritative without being authoritarian. And they can be decisive without being unilateral. See, you can be all these things. And so it's a third alternative. It's a better way to lead. And I think it can fit different personalities and, you know, different, uh, you know, strengths that people have. It's not a one size fits all of this soft leader. No, it's a strong form of leadership. It just starts by seeing the greatness inside of people and that your job is to try to unleash it as opposed to trying to control people or micromanage them. And, and so, but it can be as strong as it needs to be. So I'll give you an example. Let me tell you who I think is a trust inspired leader in your field. Um, Brett. In, in, in football as a coach, I think Nick Saban was a trust inspired leader and he's, you know, he's very strong, very demanding and you know, and people will see the, you know, the memes of him just slamming his headphones
Britain:And the clips of him and Will Muschamp just going crazy on the sidelines.
Dad:Yeah, and yelling at people on this net. So yeah, he yells a lot. Okay. He yells a lot, but you know what? Ultimately he is just demanding because he believes that people have talent inside of them and he's trying to bring it out of them. And he does it not only of his players, he did it with his coaches too. And he, and he said, he was quoted as saying this, he said, I want my legacy to be that. I helped a lot of people to be successful in their lives. In other words, he wanted to bring out the greatness inside of those people. And he took chances on coaches, gave a lot of people second chances, inside the greatness in them and greatness in others. And you look at the players that come back to him and with respect
Britain:Absolutely.
Dad:he brought out of them. So, but his style, an average person might look at him and says, he doesn't seem like a trust and inspire leader. He's, he's yelling at people all the time. No, he just, he still trusts and inspire. That's what I mean. You can be very strong. It just starts with the belief that there's greatness in people. And your job is to unleash it, not control it.
Britain:Absolutely.
Dad:What do you think of that?
Britain:I mean, I love it. Um, because, you know, I, I'm around people who have played for Nick Saban every day. And like you said, the respect they, the reverence they speak his name with in a way. And, um, Yes, he was very detail oriented, extremely detail oriented, extremely demanding and held people accountable, but they also talk about him, like I said, with a reverence, almost as if he's another father figure and, and that he held them to a standard that they wouldn't hold themselves to. So I, I think it can accomplish both. And I think a lot of times too, people. People misinterpret mix up, like you said, don't let your style get away of your intent. And I think that happens a lot of times. But you have to be authentic to yourself. I've had coaches who were not the yelling type that come in and try and be the yelling type. And we all just look at each other like, what are you doing? Like, we know that's not you. You know what I mean? Especially the first week as a new coach, you know, they come and try and be this. But then I've had coaches who are the yelling type And And you could tell it's just part of their personality. They, they just got a loud voice and you, you respect guy holiday. My receiver's coaching college, loud voice yelling all the time. And, uh, but if he didn't do that, we were, then we were like, okay, what's up with coach, you know, like something's wrong. So I think you can be authentic to yourself and your personality. You don't have to become a shell and just trust and inspire soft skill. Right. It's, it's, it's. It's accountability anyways. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
Dad:being demanding. It might be clarifying expectations, holding people accountable to those expectations. And someone on the outside might look at that and say, that's not trust and inspire. I would say, absolutely. It's trust and inspire. You can't, you're not inspiring anyone. If they're not, if there's not clear expectations and accountability to those expectations. You got to get, live up to it. Otherwise you're not demanding or asking enough of people. There's more inside of them to give. And also you can still have your own personality and, and be your, you know, you know, authentic to who you are and your approach. And so this is not a one size fits all. It's not a soft milquetoast approach to leadership. No, trust and inspire is a strong approach to leadership. Be your own person, be, have your own uniqueness, your own personality, your own style, but your meta style, your overarching paradigm. Is that there's greatness inside of people. You see them as whole people. You know, they have a body, heart, mind, spirit, and I'm trying to bring out the very best in them. And, and then that's how I view people. How do I view leadership? I see that there's enough for everyone. I have an abundance mentality. So everyone can succeed. I want everyone to succeed. And I see leadership as stewardship. And I see that my job as a leader is to go first because I believe that that's how enduring influence happens, is that I go from the inside out, not outside in. See, these are fundamental beliefs of a trust inspired leader, a paradigm of how I view people and how I view leadership that's more complete. And that is where really this is about, not whether someone in their personality, you know, likes to, you know, has a uniqueness in how they approach things. They can keep that uniqueness. The real question is, are we unleashing the greatness inside of people? Do we see it?
Stephen:As you are sharing this message now, trust and inspire has been out for what a year now, roughly or less than a year.
Dad:about two years
Stephen:Oh, two years. Wow. So it's been out for a few years now you've had the opportunity. To be able to share this message, um, all over the world now, what, what has the response been like as you, as you talk with people, as you speak with people around the world, how do people respond to this? Do people want to talk about it? Do they resonate with it? What's, what's the response been like in your, in your experience?
Dad:Yeah. It's been amazing and, and, uh, remarkable people really resonate with it. And they want this to work because, because, um, they, I, I have people that try to identify a trust, inspire leader in their life and try to have them think about someone that was a trust, inspire figure, leader, person, coach, mentor, friend, you know, boss in their life and what that did for them. And what if they could be that kind of person for another? So they want it to work, but they do ask the question that both of you brought up of, Is, will this work for me, this work in my, my industry, my situation. And when I say yes, it can, there's a third alternative. It's not soft, strong. And when I give him that paradigm that. Absolutely it can, and that this is more relevant for a changing world, more relevant for a need to work fast and to adapt to disruption and technology changes that are hitting us and to collaborate and to innovate, to stay relevant, to attract talent, to retain it, to engage it, to inspire it, to deal with all these generations that want to be led in a different way. Then they say, yes, this is so relevant. So they really respond to it. They say it's relevant. It excites them. They're a little questioning if it's going to be, if they can apply it in their situation. But then when I lay out a framework of the fundamental beliefs, the paradigm, and then the stewardship's and say, you can learn this, you can get good at this. They get really excited that they can do it. So I had exciting reactions from really all over the world. From people and from leaders and from all, you know, all walks of, uh, society, from business to government to education, even military. You think military is ultimate. That's where the words command and control come from, from the military, but they respond to trust, inspire leaders. And, and, uh, because you got to adapt and respond to how wars are fought today. And you can't command and control your way to everything. You, you have command and control a doctrine of command and control, but your style of leadership needs to be fluid and fast. And Trust Inspire is fluid and fast.
Britain:And, and I feel like along with almost every either leadership principle book or, or anything like that, self help, it feels idealistic at first. And I just want to encourage anyone listening, As you read this book, you realize how applicable it all is. It feels like in essence, things like this always feel idealistic on the surface, um, but they're very practical. And in your book, as you outline the five emerging forces and the two imperatives of our time and, and the different frameworks and. You know, you almost put it in chronological order of how you should do things. It's, it's so applicable and I love it. Um, just, just for people listening to you, do you have any specific, I don't know if you can even share, you know, specific corporations that you've worked with that have liked this. Um, anyone like that, or like you said, the military, but any specific company that you might be able to share about,
Dad:Um, all kinds of different companies. I'll tell you one though I'm working with right now is a pennant group. And, um, I'm actually on their board of directors, their healthcare services company. I'm on their board because they believe so much. In this approach to leadership, they asked me to be on it and, uh, and they believe in, in this kind of approach, trust and inspire as a way of unleashing the potential, the greatness, the talent that's inside of people, they say, we're a trust and inspire company trying to unleash this and do this. And there's many, many organizations. I just was with, uh, recently with, uh, Wegmans food markets, big grocery store chain in the
Britain:Hey, I went there two days ago.
Dad:Did you do Wegmans? They're a great company. They, they, they, they, they have great trust with their customers. Customers love them. They're in the top five of the Harris reputation quotient, which is trust with customers, but they're also in the top five of the hundred best companies to work for, which is trust with your own people. So that's the two imperative. See, they're winning in the workplace, excuse me, they're winning in the marketplace with their customers. You know, one of the top five brands in the country. And I think they're doing that because they're first winning in the workplace with their own people. They build trust with their customers because they first built trust with their people. It's inside out. And Colleen Wegman, Danny Wegman, Nicole Wegman, extraordinary company, great leaders. They're a trust inspire company and leaders. And then I can look at other examples, how Cheryl Batchelder at Popeyes, she's a trust inspire leader that turned Popeyes, the fast food franchise, turned them around completely. And, and they went from 11 and their stock price is 79 under her leadership. And, and, um, but she did it by first building trust with their franchisees and, and, and modeling. The kind of leadership that is needed, you know, with humility, with empathy and listening. And then by trusting the franchisees and listening to them and, and, um, and then by inspiring them by connecting to people with, with people and connecting to purpose. And then even, even a big company like Microsoft is a good example of when I look at Satya Nadella, he's a trust inspired leader, their CEO, completely different style of leadership. When he got in. And what, what had been, and he modeled the behavior again with humility and courage at the same time, both and with authenticity and vulnerability with empathy and performance. He trusted him. You know, they, they moved from a management model to a coaching model to trust the people. He said he had a growth mindset for everyone. And then he inspired by connecting people, connecting with people through caring. And belonging and then connecting people to purpose and demeaning the contribution and he unleashed the greatness and they went from under his leadership and also I should say of Kathleen Hogan, who is his chief human resource officer that he put in it to be his kind of person to help transform the culture. They went from, I think, 36 a share in their stock price to, they're over 400 today. They unleashed the greatness of their organization by first unleashing the greatness of their people. They also are now innovating today. Now they're reinventing themselves around the cloud first, and now around AI. And so they're winning in the marketplace through innovation. And through collaboration, but they're also winning in the workplace with their own people. They had a cutthroat competitive culture. It was at war with each other inside before when he came in and he's turned them into collaborators inside and, and they, they measure thriving, not just engagement, but thriving of their people. Again, they're not perfect. Nobody is. But, uh, under Nadella and Hogan and their leadership, their trust inspired leaders and they have lead and they've unleashed the greatness of the organization by first unleashing the greatness of their people. So there's all kinds of examples. I could go to education, you know, both universities and K through 12 and into healthcare. I mentioned pennant and, and I could go into not for profits and in government and, and, uh, military. So people do respond to this. They actually resonate with it. And they do have a little bit of worry. Is this being idealistic? And then when they see how practical and tangible it is that there's three stewardships, you model, you trust. And you inspire modeling, trusting, inspiring, and the idea that inspiring is learnable as a skill, that's like a paradigm shift for them. And so they get excited by it.
Stephen:Ever since you mentioned Popeye's, I've just been, I wonder if Cheryl had anything to do with their spicy chicken sandwich, because that's the most delicious thing ever. Sorry. I, I, I totally was focused on that. So, uh, there's that, that I'm, I'm actually really hungry now, but those are great examples though. One question I had, let's, so we're talking about maybe some specific leaders and this is something I've, I've wanted to ask you about. Is let's, let's talk about a leader like Steve jobs. Um, uh, many people probably who listen to this podcast, the type of people that listen, or, um, I wouldn't be surprised if they've read Steve jobs biography or, you know, I've heard about Steve jobs and clearly Steve jobs. I mean, he, His, his products and Apple have changed the world, um, in many, many different ways for, for most people. Um, and I would say that he probably inspired a lot of people, but I also read accounts of kind of his leadership style and he sounded like he was. Sometimes really intense, really extreme in some cases, berate people, which I know kind of the berating part is definitely not trust and inspire, but But wanted to ask you about someone like Steve Jobs, and I guess it's hard because you're, you're, you're reading a, you know, a third hand account. We weren't there. So it's probably hard to judge. Really? We're hearing it after the fact. But when you hear someone like a Steve Jobs, I mean, how do you, you know, how do you see someone like a Steve Jobs? Was he a trusted, inspired leader? Did he have elements of it? I know that's kind of a hard question and again, probably not fair because we, we weren't there the whole time to observe, but just want your opinion on that.
Dad:Yeah. It's a really intriguing question. And again, um, like you said, We're kind of projecting, we don't know for sure if we weren't there. I would say this, that, um, I think he probably had elements of it. And I think also they probably had times where his style got in the way of his intent. He certainly inspired that, that one probably undeniable that he inspired. I mean, look at this. He, he revolutionized, what was it? Five industries, just completely different shifts in paradigms of how they approached their thing. I think it's five industries. Five or six, right? Where he just literally rethought it. And so that inspires to have someone do that. And, you know, and his vision for what was possible in his, his taste and his standards and his expectations inspired. So he's certainly inspired. Um, you know, the question is, you know, was he a micromanager and there's by some accounts it sounds like he maybe was. I also know that his intent probably, Was to, um, to try to trust people. I know that he made this statement, um, that he says, it doesn't, he said, it doesn't make sense to hire smart people and then tell them what to do. Instead we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do. So I think that was in his intent. When I hire smart people and kind of trust them, and he probably had times had his style get in the way of his intent. And my guess is that he himself had such high expectations. And he also probably saw so clearly things that were possible. That maybe others didn't see, that maybe there were times where he, you know, got involved and maybe micromanaged too. So, I'm going on the accounts I read too, and not, not any experience. But, I think, in some ways, we're all like this. Not just Steve Jobs, I think we're all on a continuum of becoming more trusted and inspired. I don't think any of us have arrived. I haven't arrived. I'm still on this continuum. I mean, think about it. My style gets in the way of my intent. Think of when we go on a family vacation and we go to the airport and I get an airport face,
Britain:Yep.
Dad:right? I get all freaked out and nervous cause I know all the things that can go wrong. I start telling people what to do and where to go. And, And, I say, no, no, especially when you guys were younger. And you know, I'd say, no, go to the gate and you guys, I want to go shopping or I want to go get some food. I said, no, just go to the gate and sit here. I'll go get you the food. And I just kind of just would tell you what to do, barking out the orders. And, you know, because I know that if you don't show up on time, the plan's going to leave without you. And, and I acted like he had no responsibility, no initiative to show up, but I'd get all freaked out. I believed in you guys. It's just, you would not know it to watch me at the airport, right? Because my style was getting in the way of my intent. And you guys would say to each other, Dad's got airport face.
Britain:That's become, that's become a coined phrase in our family. And my, my Leah, my wife will say that to me sometimes before a game or just before anything. Yeah. I, I, uh, I think that's a great example. And I guess two things with that is the first is, you know, does this apply to people who aren't in a leadership role capacity in their job, whatever that is, you know, and maybe you can speak on that just in everyday life, whether that's parenthood or whatever. Um, and second, just commenting on that is, yeah, I think it's when the external stressors get so great that you, you kind of, you lose it in a sense. And so what is, what is your advice in those moments or for anyone who's in kind of a new, a new leadership role, capacity, parent, whatever it is for when those times do come up?
Dad:Let me take the second question first. Of kind of when the stressors come and hit you and the like. Um, I think that you need to become self aware. That sometimes there's certain triggers, certain situations, there might be even certain relationships. Yes. Where you're, that might kind of provoke you for your style to get in the way of your intent. For me, honestly, you know, airport face. I mean, I think of myself at airports and how I get stressed out and I, I've tried to become aware and, and you know, because the irony is here we are going on vacation, but nobody's having any fun. Cause I've got all command and control and everyone. So my style gets in the way of my intent. So now I'm becoming more aware of it. And I can step back from it and you know, when the pressure's on for someone, it might be that quarterly earnings, I got to hit the numbers in the business. I got to hit the numbers and the pressure's on. And it's very easy to just kind of go back to what we know, go back to the command and control. So I like, I look at it this way. that in a sense, imagine I was learning a new language. Let's say I was going to learn Italian. So I go to Italy. I'm practicing my Italian every day. I'm practicing it all day. Italian, Italian, Italian. I'm watching TV in Italian and everything's Italian. And then one day I'm doing a home improvement project. I'm putting up a picture. I take the hammer. I missed the nail and instead I hit my thumb. Now what language? Am I going to cuss out in when I hit my thumb?
Britain:England.
Dad:I'm going to cut that in English. Even though I've been practicing this Italian, when the pressure's on, when you know the stressor happens, I hit my thumb with the hammer. It's natural. I'm going to go back to my native tongue. And in a sense, for many of us, if not most command and control is our native tongue. It's what we know is what we're good at. Trust inspires like an acquired tongue. We're learning it. We're trying to get better at it. So you just become self aware. That I got it, that, you know, that there's certain situations where it's very easy. I can get triggered where my style might get the way of my intent, certain situations, certain relationships, certain things that happen and you become self aware and then you make conscious choices of saying, I'm going to choose to lead in this way and become better at being a trust inspired leader in these hard moments. And I, I think we can do that and get better at it. So that that'd be the first point on that. I think it's really insightful. I think the other thing is, I think the key to becoming a trust inspired leader. Is to first be a trust, inspire a person. I think it starts with just who we are. And I think everyone is a leader because you lead yourself, you lead your life and you lead in relationships and you lead in your home and you lead in your community and in your neighborhood, we can all lead in relationships. So leadership is not a position. It's a choices. Papa, your, your grandfather taught it's a choice, not a position. Everyone. Is a leader and and we can be a trust, inspire a leader without having to have a position of authority or a position that overseeing people you can lead and how you live and how you lead in relationships and build relationships and, and, um, in parenting, I think parenting is the ultimate trust and inspire leadership because think about it. You're, you're trying to help your child. See their potential and develop their potential and ultimately unleash their potential. See, communicate, develop, unleash. That's trust and inspire. See, I, you know, I see the greatness inside of my children. I'm trying to help them come to see it and help them to become it. And so that's trust and inspire. So I think that it's all walks of life. So again, I come back to the key to being a trust and inspire leaders. The first key. Be a trust and inspire person.
Stephen:A question that I have thought a lot about and I know comes up, especially for like new leaders when they first get put into like a management position, like a formal management position. What would you say? What's the difference between leadership and management? I know it's a loaded question. I believe that they're different. But, you know, in your experience, what is, what is that difference between, you know, someone who just got promoted to be a manager, right? That's the title of their job is to be a manager. What's the difference between managing and leading?
Dad:Sometimes it's semantics, but I think there are useful distinctions. Actually. I think this, I think, think of it this way. We want to manage things, but we want to lead people. So management of things, of systems, of structures, of strategies, of the numbers of the business, you know, you manage things, but you lead people. And I have to put it this way. People don't want to be managed. But people do want to be led and they want to be trusted. They want to be inspired. So it's not either, or it's not good and bad. They're both good, but manage things, lead people, be efficient with things. See, management is an efficiency paradigm. And I want to be efficient. That really is great thing. A great thing with things, again, strategies and processes and tools and systems and structures and the numbers, inventories, uh, facilities. Be efficient with things. Be effective with people. See, effectiveness is a leadership paradigm. Um, and you know, management, I can get compliance leadership. You get commitment, which includes compliance, but so much more, um, management, the focus is on motivation. So it's in, it's in, it's extrinsic. It's outside of people have a heavy carrot and stick motivation, rewards, heavy focus on rewards, nothing wrong with that. We need rewards. We need that. It's that does matter. It's just that, right. Inspiration is what tie is tied to leadership. See motivation to management, inspiration to leadership, which includes the base management. But you're now tapping inside of people. It's internal, it's intrinsic. You're trying to light the fire within because that fire once lit can burn on for months, if not years. Without the need for constant external stimuli, you know, more carrots, more sticks, more, more, more rewards. You throw out people, you would light the fire within that can, again, they're motivated by themselves. It's inside of them. And there's a power to that. So, so again, I don't look at it as either, or, but rather, and, but the key distinction, manage things, lead people, be efficient with things, be effective with people. The moment we try to be efficient with people, uh, We lose our effectiveness. You know, you try to try to be efficient with your spouse or with your partner. It doesn't work very well. Instead of listen, understand with, always remember this, that with people, fast is slow and slow is fast. So if I try to be efficient with people, don't listen. Don't take, take the time to build a relationship, to build trust. To understand, just try to be efficient with them. Just get right to the answer. In the long run, it's going to slow everything down. Spend a lot more time revisiting the relationship, trying to build it back up and the like, because the efficiency paradigm doesn't show enough respect and understanding and empathy and love toward people. But instead, if I go slow, be, you know, with people fast, fast as slow and slow as fast. So I go slow, build a relationship, listen, listen, Show respect, understand, get on the same page, try to really work together. Then once you build that trust, you move fast. I wrote a whole book on this. As you know, speed of trust, nothing is as fast as the speed of trust and nothing is as inspiring as a relationship of trust and as happy as trust. And so again, it's, it's, and, but, The key distinction, manage things, lead people in all its, you know, iterations. And that's throughout the Trust Inspire book. As you guys know, I contrast throughout the entire book that's kind of goes down that path of command and control Trust Inspire in a thing paradigm versus a people paradigm, a management versus a leadership paradigm. And again, I'm not downgrading management. I'm just saying in its context, context matters. Manage things, lead people. This is a book on leadership.
Britain:I love that. And, and something came to my mind as you were talking just I bet there's a difference between even leading people like in the workplace who are voluntarily there and leading people who are kind of against their will in a situation like kids didn't really choose their parents or, you know what I mean? Like, um, I would have chosen you though. Don't worry. But it,
Dad:Okay. Thanks.
Britain:either that, or, you know, kids didn't choose their teacher in school or whatever it is, whereas it's like. If you're a 35 year old working at a job, it's like, in a way you kind of choose that, so they might be more willing, you know? So I feel like this whole idea of, you know, slow is fast in those scenarios. I mean, we all can think about someone who. Trusted and inspired us some teacher who actually took the time to not just like you said, quote, carrot and stick things, but really see us and our potential. Um, so I just think in those scenarios too, not in the ones where they might be a little less inclined to really put their full effort in, um, that really applies.
Dad:I think so. And that's where you being a trust inspired person and leader or teacher or coach or mentor or friend can really make a difference on someone. Maybe they weren't even expecting it. And, and, uh, I think of, uh, you know, Lin Manuel Miranda that. that wrote Hamilton, created Hamilton and, and, uh, the great play and, and also, uh, Moana and did that, um, in Conto. What's that? We don't talk about Bruno. No, no, no. You know, that went in Conto, right? This great playwright, but he talks about how his eighth grade English teacher, Dr. Rembrandt Herbert, he goes, he goes, he's the reason I am where I am today. Okay. Because he talked about how in eighth grade, he said, I, he said, I did, I wrote a musical instead of getting, doing my homework for an assignment. And he came up to him and said, you know what, Lynn, you could be good at this and you should stop hibernating in my class. And you should be doing this instead. See, they had a student led theater club and he said, do you got this in you? So he didn't do his homework. He turned in a musical instead, doing his homework. You know, a command and control teacher would have said, do your homework. A trust inspired teacher said, you could be good at this. It's in you. You should be doing this. You can do this. And he probably also added. And do your homework too. And, but, but, but Lynn said, he saw something in me and he helped me come to see it myself. And he is the reason I am where I am today. And see, we have a chance to be that kind of trust, inspire person, figure, mentor, friend, coach, leader, parent, aunt, uncle, grandparent to those around us to see their potential, to communicate their potential, so that they come to see it, to develop it. And unleash it. I call this see, communicate, develop, unleash potential. But it starts with seeing it because two people could see the same third person and one see nothing and the other see greatness. Even though it might be lying dormant, you know, like seeds in the ground that maybe you don't see anything at first, but if the conditions are right, those seeds will grow and develop our job as leaders is like a gardener creating conditions to develop the seeds, to develop the people, the greatness is in the seed, the greatness is in the people we see it and we help them come to see it. And when that comes full circle with, with Papa, with your grandfather's definition of leadership. That leadership is seeing and communicating people's worth and potential so clearly that they come to see it in themselves. That's trust and inspire being that kind of person for another.
Stephen:It's really inspirational. Um, as you talk through this dad and I'm reminded when I think about this trust and inspire approach. And if I ever have questions about it, I say, is this practical? And then I turned around on myself and say, how, how do I want to be led? Do I want
Britain:Yeah.
Stephen:with a command and control person? Or do I want to be with someone whose fundamental beliefs about me? Is that I can be great and can do great things. Like I would much rather be with a trusted, inspired leader versus a command and control. And that's where, when I flip it on its head, I say, this is not just practical, but this is the answer. This is. This is what we need in today's world. Um, and that just resonates so strongly with me. So one, one other thing, you know, before we wrap up is we like to get into at least some type of application. And obviously the easiest application with these, with this book and any book we review is to read the book. Cause I think you get most out of it, but I thought it'd be good if we, Kind of wrapped up talking a little bit about stewardship agreements, um, because I feel like the stewardship agreement is kind of the key, as far as an application goes with this, like setting up a stewardship agreement is kind of the key to applying. Trust and trust and inspire where I think anyone that's in a formal leadership position or even formal if you, you know, whether it's kids or, um, other situations, it's something everyone can do, and it changes the nature of the relationship. So wondering if you could talk a little bit on the application side, maybe, maybe let's go at it from stewardship agreement.
Dad:The whole idea of a stewardship agreement is this, is that, you know, whenever we're talking about trusting people, see, cause again, there's, there's three, first of all, in the book, I talk about three stewardships Me is an essential responsibility that we have as a leader. Another way to say stewardship is that it's a job with a trust. And I believe that as leaders. We have three jobs with the trust that we have in in leading people and they are these to model the behavior that we would like to see to model the values that we have, you know, that the company has that the team has we model we trust people. And we inspire them. We model, we trust, we inspire. Modeling, trusting, inspiring. And the stewardship agreement is a way to kind of take trusting and make that real and practical. But it really covers all three stewardships because of the process of building it together. And so the idea is that rather than just telling people, Hey, I trust you. You know, go out and do whatever you want. We built an agreement together around the trust being extended. And that agreement has two halves. We clarify expectations around the agreement and we agree to a process of accountability to those expectations. So clarify expectations. Practice accountability. That is the agreement we build. That's a stewardship agreement we build together. So, Hey, if I'm going to trust someone, I'm trusting you to take care of, you know, to, to lead this team. I'm trusting you to manage this project. I'm trusting you to, You know, to do this or that, or what have you, I always do it with extension with building an agreement with the person with expectations and with accountability. And rather than see a command and control leader might have an agreement, but they often, they just dictate the agreement. They just tell him, you know, here's, here's what you'll do and I'll judge how you're doing it. They dictate it. It doesn't inspire anyone. And, and people, if there's less involvement, there's less commitment. A trust inspired leader builds it together with the person so they clarify expectations. And then, and that includes what results are we after? Expect the clarifying expectations has three pieces to it. Desired results. What are we trying to do? What results are we after? Second, guidelines. Oh, by the way, desired results, we want them to be outcomes, not methods. You know, actual results, not activities. So that we're delegating around outcomes, not telling people how to do it, but rather saying, we want to hit the numbers. We want to accomplish this. We want to achieve this or that. And grow the business or, or manage the profits and grow the brand. So outcomes, not here's how you'll do it. That's methods. So we desire results, but we do give people guidelines. That's parameters to work within, um, you know, guardrails, things to make sure that we're, you know, with, within what limits within. You know, and it's kind of legal and ethical and moral type of guidelines of, you know, do it the right way, live the values and getting, you know, results. Cause you don't want to get results at all costs and cheat, get results. And then we have resources. That's what I would have to work with financial and, and, uh, um, human resources and technological resources. I can tap into, so I'm empowered to get those results. So just, you know, clarify expectations around results, guidelines, and resources. And then we practice accountability, which is. The other half, and that's how will we know how we're doing against the expectations? And so, you know, and, and the, the key thing is trust and inspire. You build this agreement together, people can report back on how they're doing against the expectations. They tell you how they're doing rather than you having to go over, hover over and micromanage and, and say, I see how you're doing. I'll judge you. Now they judge themselves the expectations. You built that together and they report back to you as you've agreed upon. And you could agree at maybe with someone that's weekly accountability. Maybe with someone who's monthly or quarterly, just depend upon where they're at. You know, you know how important it is for you to be involved, but you can flex it. And then you have consequences to that accountability. You know, what are the natural implications of achieving the results or not? And so that's a practical way of building an agreement together so that when you trust someone, it's not a blind trust. It's a smart trust with expectations, with accountability around the trust being given. That's a powerful agreement. And, and, um, and here's the net net of it. People are three times more likely to achieve results when they're trusted through an agreement like this. So it's better for their outcomes, better for the business. Better for the team, but also it's better for the person they grow and they're happier. They like being empowered and not micromanaged. They feel happier and they perform better. Everyone wins.
Britain:All,
Dad:the practical outcome of a stewardship agreement.
Britain:all of this is just reminding me of us creating my curfew in high school. I think I was your Guinea pig. I mean, I think we were your Guinea pigs for, for creating this because it was totally this type of agreement we were talking about now, look, I can either, we can have a set curfew at like 10 PM or we can give you more freedom, but we both decide on the On the punishment. If you don't, it's a system of discipline, not punishment, all this stuff. I totally remember, but it was great. I give you credit because I got to stay out later. So I won there. And you, and I felt trusted and, but I always had to respond right away with the text and I had to have my location. Anyways, this is just funny. Cause this, it was totally one of these agreements. It was, it was a
Dad:Yeah.
Britain:mutual thing.
Dad:Mom and I tried it with you, you kids. And for the most part, it works. We tried it with you. It started with Steven with your driving agreement
Stephen:that didn't go too well.
Dad:Well, but then, but then, you learned and it went great after
Stephen:that's true.
Dad:and then the trust went to, we never had, never worried again.
Stephen:That's
Britain:say the whole idea of the. It's a system of discipline because you had already pre agreed together on the consequences. Yeah, it made it not personal and I wasn't surprised if I, you know, mis you know, didn't keep the agreement. It was great. Yeah,
Dad:the consequences because you were very clear on it. If you chose to violate the agreement, then you knew that you had consequences as part of it, it was more disciplined, not punishment. Cause it was not arbitrary. It was agreed upon together. And it was your, your call. And, and so no, yeah, I think it really works. I learned it from, from again, Papa, your grandfather, my dad with green and clean and seven habits, where he taught me to take care of the lawn, the yard. this is back before they had automatic sprinklers. He said, I want the yard to be green and clean. And he trained me what green look like training, what clean look like, and then turn it over to me. And I judged myself. Yeah. And like you, son, with the driving, it took me a couple weeks and at first I didn't do it. I didn't respond at first. And then I kind of learned that, Hey, I got to be responsible and that I own this. And, but I began to see myself differently as capable that, that I can do this. And I, I'm, I'm, I have it in me and I began to take responsibility and suddenly I owned the job and I took care of the yard and it was green and it was clean, not only for that summer, but then was green and clean for the next 10 years. And Papa, your grandfather, didn't have to worry about it again. See, he went slow to go fast. You know, he's trained me for two weeks. Expectations and accountability. Want the yard to be green and clean? Well, walk around the yard every week, you tell me how you're doing against green and clean. So, I judged myself. And after this, never had to worry about it again. For a decade. Until he turned the job over to Sean. And then Sean never did it. My brother.
Stephen:See, I think this whole discussion around stewardship agreements and setting up the agreement, it should be one of the first things that a newly appointed manager or, you know, leader in a company should be trained on. Because I feel like that is the constant issue in so many, at least the organizations I've been a part of. It's always, uh, people didn't clarify expectations up front. Didn't talk about how you can do your job and what's expected. And then review kind of consequences. And if you just do that up front at the beginning, it solves so many issues down the road and it, like you said, it's, it's still, it's trust and inspire, but it's not, there's, there's still accountability, there's still performance, there's still all the things that matter, right? You still get results. But you're just setting and clarifying it up front. And it's just amazing to me and seeing other companies I've worked for, people I haven't worked for, but seeing other, it's just amazing to me how many managers and newly appointed managers it's just like. They have no idea how to manage or, you know, lead their team because they don't have anything set up like this. It's just kind of like this nebulous. Oh, I need to manage them. And just simple stewardship agreements would literally change that.
Dad:have absolutely. And you implemented this Steven with the company that where you were leading themselves and you helped the sales team grow dramatically, like 10 X through this type of approach of building an agreement with someone and where they felt empowered, they felt trusted. And there's expectations and accountability, not a blind trust, a smart trust, but together with that clarity and with the accountability built in and them feeling empowered. They brought out the best in them and it does brings out the best in people. So you perform better three times better. The research shows. And, and uh, you know, people like being trusted. People do their very best work when they're trusted. I do. You two do. Most, I think our listeners and viewers do, and I think our people do. They do their best work when they're trusted. All of us are just afraid of having to be a blind trust or losing control. The stewardship agreement makes sure that it's a smart trust, not a blind trust, and that we haven't lost control. We just shift it. From us having to hover over and micromanage to the agreement governing.
Stephen:This has been great, dad. Um, I'll just end by saying I, I feel like you're the perfect person to write this book, Trust and Inspire, because, uh, you've been in Trust and Inspire leader and dad. In my life, and I know Brit would say the same, um, and, uh, yeah, you, you weren't perfect, obviously, um, but, but we knew, uh, I always knew the intent and I always felt trusted. I, I always felt like your fundamental beliefs about me, were that, you know, I was going to do great things. And it was, it was one where, I wanted to work hard and do good for you because, because you trusted and believed in me. And that's, you know, that's, that's I think how everyone wants to feel. And Brent, I'm sure you'd echo the same thing.
Britain:yes, for those who thought that was me talking.
Stephen:Yeah, maybe we should start announcing first.
Britain:I agree. This has been wonderful. Thanks again.
stephen-m-r-covey_2_09-09-2024_195014:So here's a practical thing to end with, to our listeners and viewers. I invite you to identify one relationship that you would like to transform. And you might ask, you ask yourself this question, who in my life, and this could be personally or professionally in your family life, your work life, who in my life would benefit the most By being more trusted and inspired by me. I invite each of you to identify someone in your life that you would like to become a trust and inspire person, leader, figure for that person, just like someone has been for you in your life, you become for another in their life. That's my invitation to each of you. Try it. You'll be inspired by it. Identify someone and you'll be amazed the impact it will have.
Dad:At the end of the day, trust and inspire is a belief in people. There's greatness inside of people and that as leaders, our job is to help them see it and become it and unleash it. And I think people do better work that way to have someone believe in them. And then not. And that again, it's strong. It's, it's not a soft form of leadership. It's the strongest form of leadership there is. Cause there's expectations and accountability and you want to live up to that and you feel compelled and it brings out the best in all of us. So I think we all respond. To be, to being trusted, to be inspired, to being believed in. It's a better way to lead. And we need this in our world today because we're living in a world that's dangerously low in both trust and inspiration. And we can be models of a trust inspired leader that can become mentors to others to help bring about a Renaissance of both trust and inspiration in our world today. Thanks sons. Love being with you too. Proud of you both.