Have you ever grasped a book that felt like a key to unlocking the secrets of your heart? That's the treasure Dr. Heather Browne brings to us, blending her expertise as a psychotherapist with the soulful touch of a poet to navigate the complexities of love, communication, and intimacy. Our conversation is a journey through the emotional landscape of relationships, facing the trials of hurt and deceit head-on. Dr. Browne's anticipation for her new book, Speaking With The Heartis contagious, and her guide promises practical wisdom for anyone looking to strengthen their bonds with others.
When was the last time you were able to feel someone's pain without having lived it yourself? This episode reveals the transformative power of compassion over empathy. Dr. Browne shares a personal tale of comforting her mother that tugs at the heartstrings, illustrating how our presence can be a beacon of hope in another's darkness. We dissect the nuances that differentiate empathy from compassion and how embracing the latter can change our lives. This segment of our dialogue is an invitation to honor the unique realities we each inhabit, fostering a connection beyond mere understanding.
To wrap up, we ponder the profound influence of leading with compassion in our daily interactions. Dr. Browne and I look at the world through a lens of kindness, considering how a simple shift from ego to heart can profoundly impact our lives and the lives of those around us. Before we part, I leave you with a challenge: to become an advocate for joy in your community, to celebrate the triumphs of friends and strangers alike, and to freely distribute compliments that might just make someone's day. Dr. Browne's insights are more than just food for thought—they're a call to action for anyone seeking to infuse their week with a spirit of generosity.
Did you find this episode uplifting, inspiring or motivating? Would you like to support more content like this? Check out our Support The Show Page here.
Have you ever grasped a book that felt like a key to unlocking the secrets of your heart? That's the treasure Dr. Heather Browne brings to us, blending her expertise as a psychotherapist with the soulful touch of a poet to navigate the complexities of love, communication, and intimacy. Our conversation is a journey through the emotional landscape of relationships, facing the trials of hurt and deceit head-on. Dr. Browne's anticipation for her new book, Speaking With The Heartis contagious, and her guide promises practical wisdom for anyone looking to strengthen their bonds with others.
When was the last time you were able to feel someone's pain without having lived it yourself? This episode reveals the transformative power of compassion over empathy. Dr. Browne shares a personal tale of comforting her mother that tugs at the heartstrings, illustrating how our presence can be a beacon of hope in another's darkness. We dissect the nuances that differentiate empathy from compassion and how embracing the latter can change our lives. This segment of our dialogue is an invitation to honor the unique realities we each inhabit, fostering a connection beyond mere understanding.
To wrap up, we ponder the profound influence of leading with compassion in our daily interactions. Dr. Browne and I look at the world through a lens of kindness, considering how a simple shift from ego to heart can profoundly impact our lives and the lives of those around us. Before we part, I leave you with a challenge: to become an advocate for joy in your community, to celebrate the triumphs of friends and strangers alike, and to freely distribute compliments that might just make someone's day. Dr. Browne's insights are more than just food for thought—they're a call to action for anyone seeking to infuse their week with a spirit of generosity.
Did you find this episode uplifting, inspiring or motivating? Would you like to support more content like this? Check out our Support The Show Page here.
Mike Rathbun:
This podcast is part of the Deluxe Edition Network. To find other great shows on the network, head over to deluxeeditionnetworkcom. That's deluxeeditionnetworkcom.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Kindness, we see it all around us. We see it when someone pays for someone else's coffee or holds the door open for another person. We see it in the smallest of gestures, like a smile or a kind word. But it's different when we turn on the news or social media. Oftentimes what we hear about what outlets are pushing is the opposite of kind. Welcome to the Kindness Matters podcast. Our goal is to give you a place to relax, to revel in stories of people who have received or given kindness, a place to inspire and motivate each and every one of us to practice kindness every day. Hello and welcome everybody to another episode of the Kindness Matters podcast. I am your host, mike Rathman.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Before we begin our show today, let me talk about the Deluxe Edition Network's podcast of the month. They have two for the month of February. The first one up is Films and Fermentation, and that podcast follows three friends who like to talk shit about movies while getting well shit-faced. The hosts, kevin, mike and Leo, discuss various movie topics in conjunction with their favorite libations. It's a podcast about alcohol and cinema Cheers.
Dr. Heather Browne:
The second podcast on the Deluxe Edition Network's podcast of the month for February is Friends Talking Nerdy. Friends Talking Nerdy is a podcast hosted by Professor Aubrey and Tim the Nerd that delves deep into all things geeky and nerdy. With their passion for pop culture, science, mental health and technology, the hosts offer insightful commentary on the latest trends and happenings in the world of geekdom. Through their engaging banter and lively discussions, professor Aubrey and Tim the Nerd create a fun and informative space for all nerds to come together and explore the latest trends and ideas. Those are the two podcasts of the month on the Deluxe Edition Network. Go to deluxeeditionnetworkcom to find out more. And now on with the show. My guest today is a psychotherapist specializing in couples, communication and intimacy, grief, loss, spirituality and faith, and transforming lives into expressions of beauty and joy. She has a brand new book out and I am so happy to introduce Dr Heather Brown. Welcome to the show, heather.
Speaker 3:
Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Are we doing a little happy dance Because the book just came, was it yesterday?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yesterday it's like around five, it came out very much. So it's been it's been a little year and a half journey in stepping in to do this, so it's a long process. So it's it's wild that it's out. I haven't touched it yet.
Dr. Heather Browne:
My copy's come tomorrow, so I'm waiting, you know to see my that's a smell of ink on paper and all.
Speaker 3:
And I did a coaching program with Ashley Mansour and it's a wonderful program, Author Ignite, and it helps you learn how to write your book and publishing and going through the whole process of editing and how to get it out there and the cover and hashtags and all of these things. And one of the things she had us do when we submitted the book the first time for the first edit was to write a letter to yourself that you get to open once you're published.
Speaker 3:
And so that letter has been in a prominent place in my room for 13 months. Oh my gosh and so I thought do I open it yesterday and I thought no Wait to oh, you haven't opened it yet. Uh-uh.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3:
Because I was officially. I'm officially, you know, published because the book is done. Sure, it's out yesterday, but I thought it's not. I'm I'm waiting to get my baby, so I'm gonna. Okay, alright open my letter.
Dr. Heather Browne:
That's so exciting. But now you've written a lot, you're, you're well published, but just not in book form, right?
Speaker 3:
Right.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Is this so much better?
Speaker 3:
It's so thorough and you know, when I write an article, I'm writing about a specific topic.
Mike Rathbun:
Sure.
Speaker 3:
And a specific part of a topic and I love doing that and I've written hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of poems. I have two poetry books that are out and I love them. But writing a book on helping people in their relationship and walking through hurt and anger and deceit and anxiety and triggers and love, languages and intimacy and sacks and money and kids and hand holding and cuddling and loving each other deeply and devotedly, that's rich.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
It's a huge gamut. It's not just one little piece. And so for that, yeah, because it's like slipping into a warm bath that you like, luxuriate and for a long time. It's not just a quick shower.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right.
Speaker 3:
And the way I wrote it, because I wanted it to be different, of course, than any other book out there. So I wrote it instead of like this is how to be in a better relationship, this is how to have better communication. I actually walk you through it. So there's exercises in pretty much every single chapter, and some of them are throughout the chapter. So I'll say okay, now I want you to go do this. I'll spend two minutes here, spend three minutes here, and then come back and I'll say okay, so what did we learn here? Let's talk about that. What was hard here? Let's talk about it. What did you love here? Let's talk about it. So it's kind of, in an essence, like a workshop book.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Okay.
Speaker 3:
Because we know a lot of times how you know we just don't do it. But there's the place yeah.
Speaker 3:
You know, like I know I should but, and so I just take away the but and just say and here we go, Let me help you with that, Let me guide you on it. And there's a lot that we can learn about how to even approach communication that for some reason we're not taught. Did a podcast last week and the host said you should be in every single high school in college. You should be in every single high school in college in the US or the world to share with them this knowledge, because nobody teaches us. I'm like I know that looking at communication very, very differently than we do it to make it more effective, to make it more respectful, to make it more honoring.
Speaker 3:
There's the place of not abandoning yourself and not blaming the other, and I think our world really needs to look at that. We abandon ourselves and then we blame the other person for us feeling abandoned.
Speaker 3:
We really need to know how to be solid within ourselves and carry ourselves in our integrity, and then with that I determine what I can do in a relationship with somebody else. But if I'm not really solid in me, then how am I going to have a conversation? Because I'm going to veer all over the place. So I spent quite a bit of time at the very beginning helping people really recognize their thoughts, their feelings, their needs, their beliefs for them and how to step into a relationship differently, where you are learning how to walk side by side, even though you have very different opinions.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah, Sure, and you focus a lot on compassion, yes, in your teacher, in your, in your business. I guess that's a good way to say it.
Speaker 3:
But I mean just in general, you focus on compassion and I think that's the most beautiful gift we have as humans that we can love. Yeah, I think that's the most beautiful thing, and what I have found is, the longer I'm here, it's up to me how much I want to love is up to me, how much I feel love is up to me, and when I no longer rely on somebody else to be the person to provide that for me, when I decide, oh no, I'm going to love me no matter what, like, I am going to help myself, walk through today as best I can and treat myself with respect and kindness. I'm just going to enjoy being Heather, because it doesn't feel good hating Heather. It just simply doesn't hating Heather, doesn't feel good beating Heather up. I don't know why we ever decided it's so hard to love ourselves.
Speaker 3:
I don't have to be sad that we've decided that, because it doesn't have to be, can be. You don't have to think you're amazing, but just simply let it be okay that you're like. I'm six foot tall. That just is. I'm a woman, that just is. I'm 60. That just is like I don't have to fight it, it just is.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah, there's nothing you can do about it, so you might as well love yourself for it anyway.
Speaker 3:
Might as well. I mean, now we're starting to do things about some of that, but that's another topic. But for me, the one thing I can offer is my compassion. Sure and I know this the more I live in compassion and the more I offer it, the better chance there is of it being received.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Amen, because I was. I was thinking about compassion and empathy and I was thinking you know, do people mix those two up a lot in your experience? Are they used interchangeably? No, I went, no they are.
Speaker 3:
they are confused a lot and they are different.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yes, similar. They're similar, but empathy is being able to to see yourself in another person's troubles, whereas compassion is being able to see yourself in another person's trouble and wanting to help.
Speaker 3:
Yes, yes.
Dr. Heather Browne:
And that's the big difference, because I always think you have to have empathy, to be kind, but compassion to me is more really the necessary thing.
Speaker 3:
Well, and for me the difference is in empathy. I have to feel, I have to feel for you in your situation and feel I somehow kind of understand it and compassion. You don't, you don't have to understand it at all.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right.
Speaker 3:
If I see a child starving in India, I do not understand that.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
I can have deep compassion. Can I really have empathy? Not, not. I don't know what it feels like to be starving to death.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right.
Speaker 3:
I've gone without food is three days. That's a long time, but that's not a month Right. So, to me, compassion, this is also the other. This is the difference. For me, empathy, there's a, there's a big piece of you in that. I recognize that, I align with that. I understand that. I've had that experience too. So I'm going to feel closer to you because, basically, this reminds me of me. Compassion is not about me at all. Right, that's what can I give to you.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right, right.
Speaker 3:
We don't need to focus on me. Whereas empathy, it is largely about us joining in our commonalities, compassion is just a giving of the heart.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah, and basically not you. You've had a big year. I mean your book just came out and then in November your Ted Talk yeah, dropped.
Speaker 3:
Yep.
Dr. Heather Browne:
And I was watching that Ted talk and this will come full circle, but bear with me you were talking about. There was you. You related a story. Your mom had some mental health issues when you were a child and paranoia.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, Schizophrenia and alcoholic.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Okay, and you related a story and I should just have you tell the story. But your compassion, there was what really shown through and if you want to tell the story, I'll let you. But yeah, that really struck with me. Stuck with me and struck me.
Speaker 3:
Well, it was pivotal and, yeah, I'll do it in a snapshot. People can go listen to my tactics that they want the whole story.
Dr. Heather Browne:
But please do. I'll have the link in the show notes.
Speaker 3:
Perfect, just like this quick line of it. So when my mom would go into psychotic episodes, we all try to pull her out. Like you know, ginny, that it's not. That's not what's going on, this isn't happening. And so one day, when I was 12, helicopters were flying over the house and she thought they were coming to get her, and my dad did what my dad always did and said like Ginny, you're crazy, it's all in your head. We're not coming to get you.
Speaker 3:
And I remember looking at her and she was petrified and I remember thinking like this isn't working. Telling her this isn't real isn't working. She's petrified. So I asked a really important question, which was what does mommy need? When she needed to feel safe, yeah, I did what probably any 12 year olds going to do Grab my little blue blankie named Bambi, and I threw it over her head and I held her and I just said, like they're not going to get you, mommy, they're not going to get you. And so then, when she came out, she looked at me and her eyes seemed to say you believe me and I didn't. I did not believe her reality.
Speaker 3:
But it didn't matter, you didn't need to it didn't matter, because I needed to know and honor she believed her reality. And so in doing that and in giving that love, in caring enough about what she needed and trying to protect her with my blue blankie from what she thought she needed protection from, and holding her and being there with her, my brain kind of went and I went. Okay, this is important and I have just bridged between different realities Because I've honored them both. I didn't need her to be in mine, no clue how to go to hers.
Speaker 3:
But, love, compassion, caring for, was the bridge, and I thought that is what relationship can be, that is what communication can be. And so I came out into teenage years not thinking anybody ever would really understand my reality, because I realized they don't live it. So yours is going to be different than mine. So I don't have to fight mines right. I don't have to fight that yours is wrong. I can just say I don't really get yours. Help me understand as much as you can what I need to know to respect yours. And it also showed me that in every situation where someone is struggling yourself included angry, hurt, sad, dejected, rejecting whatever it is there needs to be more love, and we can always, if we choose, offer love simply because it's the compassionate thing to do Doesn't mean they've earned it, doesn't mean they deserve it. Doesn't mean I agree with anything they do.
Speaker 3:
I can simply be compassionate because here is another human being who's struggling or suffering and I have been that I was homeless for a month, like I know what it can be like to have life be hard and I would have wanted to be treated well in those moments. I have moments where I'm not completely solid in this reality and I would hope someone would say, hey, heather, like you seem to be a little tense here, like let me help you with that. But we all want to feel safe, we all want to feel loved. If you think of the nature of being born, the man and the woman coming together and joining and becoming the embryo and then growing within the mommy's body, being attached with the umbilical cord, needing that for life itself and then needing the breast or the bottle for life itself, we long to be important, we long to be loved, we long to give love. And so I just think, well, because I know that, do I do that every day? Am I compassionate every day? Am I caring every day?
Dr. Heather Browne:
We'll be right back with my conversation with Dr Heather Brown, but first let's hear from a deluxe edition network podcast from Don Brody called History. I'd Like to. Well, I'll let her tell you.
Mike Rathbun:
Hi, I'm Don Brody, a comedian with a history degree and the host of the podcast Hilf History. I'd Like to Fuck. Each episode, I am joined by a new guest who has brought me a subject from history that they want to know more about. Then I hit the books. I dig deep in the anals and stimulate. We've covered Frankenstein, houdini, joan of Arc, pompeii, the sale of witch trials, right. Join us and find out for yourself that history is a party and everybody's coming.
Speaker 3:
In my TED Talk I talk about a homeless man who just went right into my soul and I thought about it a lot because I looked at him and I could have not I could have looked at him, closed off.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Sure.
Speaker 3:
But I didn't. And so in that moment, that bridge was from my soul to his soul, from my heart to his heart, and I was moved. And we have all had people in our lives where you just say thank God, thank God, thank God, thank God, thank God you're here because they know, you desperately.
Speaker 3:
If we remember that, if we keep ourselves in a place of I want to be open and accessible to love in you in whatever way I might be able to, it's a different way of doing life. If I wake up this morning and say, how many people can I love, how many people can I bless, how many people can I touch, I'm going to be way more excited to step into the world.
Dr. Heather Browne:
If.
Speaker 3:
I wake up and say, oh my God, there's so much I have to do and I have to go to the office and people are going to need me and I'm tired. I want to do this. It's not going to be a good day.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah, no, no, no, for sure, so do you walk your life speaking with your heart.
Speaker 3:
Do you walk your journey speaking with your heart? And so oftentimes we don't. But we can quickly catch that and say oh, what am I doing? This is all in my head, this is all in my ego. It's like where's that best part of me? My heart is my best part of me? Why? Would I not want the best part of me to come out as much as possible?
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah, for sure. I think this world we have today could use so many more people like you, because I, you know, and that's just the thing. I was watching interviews of potential voters the other day and one of them said you know, would you listen to this person who has opposing views than you? You know views that are opposed to yours. Would you listen to them and try to explain to them why you feel the way you do? No, no, because they're throwing a political label there.
Speaker 3:
Well, but if they would want to hear, sure, I mean, I can share what I think and I believe.
Dr. Heather Browne:
I think people just don't want to hear. They're not willing to get to that compassionate part where they don't see other people as people of a different religion or a different skin color, or a different political party or, whatever the case may be, as another human being.
Speaker 3:
And isn't that wild to think? Yes, there's these billion people on the planet. For whatever reason, we are each here. How bizarre for me to think that my little speck of heather dumb means anything more than anybody else's little speck of them. I mean, how can I think I'm more important than another person when all I am is one of eight billion?
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right.
Speaker 3:
And how can I say you are supposed to be a particular way Like you get to decide 100% for you. I could decide 100% for me and I'm living a life that, for me, calls me and blesses me, and I hope he's a whole bunch of good in the world. But at the end of my life, I will have lived my life and I'll be dead and that's it, right. There's some like stacked order of oh, I've been so amazing, therefore, and I'm dead. I'm dead, right. What I hope happens is at the end of my life, I hope, when I meet with God and creation and all of that, what I hope happens is they say like, what do you think? What do you think? What I want to say is oh my gosh, thank you.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
Thank you. You gave me this incredible experience and I love so much of it. And thank you for letting me be heather Like. Thank you for choosing like this body, this mind, this personality. What a hoot.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Thank you for not making me a Jane or a Janet or whatever.
Speaker 3:
I would have been grateful to be Jane or Janet, but like thank you for what was mine.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right.
Speaker 3:
And thank you for giving me as much of an awareness as I have had to want to bless Right, because for me, that's my greatest thing being children of the world, being in relationship and like loving on others. For me, that's my biggest thing. For somebody else, it's something different, and then they would think for something different. Maybe it's making music. How glorious. I don't have a gift. So, yeah, like this is for us to decide how do we play this game, how do we walk this role, how do we do this dance? And I just see people who and myself included who just waste so much of the time being frustrated and pissed off and resentful and angry and bitter, and I think God, another day went by where you missed the sunset.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right yeah.
Speaker 3:
And the thing went by where clearly you didn't love you, because if you had loved you, you wouldn't even be focusing on this other crud, you would just be focusing on oh, I am in a good place, let me step out of here. I'm not going to be in this conversation. Let me go pet my dog.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right, oh, my God, is that the best? Yeah, just that will lower my blood pressure to like 10 points just petting my dog.
Speaker 3:
So one of the things they say when you're in deep depression is, if you're able to get a pet or volunteer, yeah, because you're loving on something else, and it validates that you can do something, that you are important, that you have an impact, that you need to be here, that others need you. Because depression is really the loss of the belief that we are important in ourselves.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Oh interesting, I've never heard it put that way.
Speaker 3:
I've never said it before, so thank you for that, but that's what it is.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Copyright Dr Heather Brown.
Speaker 3:
There we go. I don't someone else is going to have to read it back to us because I don't even know what it said but that I don't feel good in the beingness of me. I don't know how to get out of that, and so when you bring in a pet or a volunteer, my focus now becomes what I do for you.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Right.
Speaker 3:
And because pets and people who are needing are grateful. You get back and then you realize, oh, I can do something. When I was at my lowest, it was freshman year of college and I was definitely in a deep depression. I would never kill myself, but I for sure wanted God to kill me and I went to a psychiatrist because I knew I was not in a good place. And he said to me what is one thing that used to bring you pleasure? And I said dancing. And he said OK, I want you to dance for an hour every day until I see you again.
Dr. Heather Browne:
It seems like a long time.
Speaker 3:
It was, and I said it's not going to do any good. He said I don't really care, I want you to do it. I'm thinking man, I'm thinking jerk, but then I'm also thinking he's the doctor, ok, and I am largely obedient. So I went and the first day it was just stupid, it was dumb, it was forever. And then I went back and crawled into my bed. Second day, same thing, just hated it, got pissed off, got angry. This is so dumb. Why am I even doing this? This is a waste of time, like being in my bed is a better fill for my day.
Speaker 3:
And so the third day I thought, well, heck, if I'm doing this, I'm bringing music. So I brought music. At least I listened to music and it was a little bit less treacherous. Day four I'm like, screw this, if I'm doing this, I am dancing, darn it. So I danced and I hated it. I was mad, I was jumping and I was leaping and throwing my body and I was tired. And then the fifth day I kind of danced. When I went back to his office he said did you do it? And I said yeah, I did. He said good, and then he started to move on to another topic and I went wait.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Aren't you going to ask me how I felt?
Speaker 3:
Yeah, aren't you going to ask how it went? And he said no. And I said why? He said because you proved to yourself that you can do something when you don't want to. And if you want to share with me how you felt about it, go ahead. But that's not the point of what I had to do. And I was angry with him because I wanted it to be important, and so I told him I'm angry right now and he said why? And I said because I want my experience to be important to you. And he said why is that? And I said because I want to be important to you. And he said congratulations on stepping out of your depression.
Dr. Heather Browne:
He was brilliant Wow he was brilliant.
Speaker 3:
I learned so much in four sessions from that man, wow Key. Though such a key, I'm going to do something because it'll be good for me and, if you can move it to, and I'm going to care about others in my experience or want to share my experience now I've given myself value.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Yeah.
Speaker 3:
There's something about this that I think you need to know, wow. That's not a depressed person. That's a hurting person, healing person.
Dr. Heather Browne:
Wow, so cool. Well, heather, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. I really appreciate it so much. Wishing you so much good luck, thank you, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3:
Good luck. Yeah, thank you for talking to me.
Dr. Heather Browne:
I am honored. Your book is out. Speaking with the Heart.
Speaker 3:
Yep, it's on Barnes Noble, it's on Amazon and I believe the link is on my website. But if it's not on my website, go to Barnes Noble on Amazon, because it just went up. So we're working on that as we speak.
Dr. Heather Browne:
We'll just put both those links in the show notes.
Speaker 3:
There you go, and if you go on, well, we've got the links. I'll send you the links of actual books, so you have it too. But if you go on Amazon, if you type in Speaking with the Heart, just type in either Dr Heather or Dr Brown there's a lot of speaking heart books and so if you put my name in there it'll pop up quicker, and any questions that anybody has with it I'd be honored to answer. Please let me know. Love to have Amazon reviews. Love to have people share it. I just really hope that, my 27 years of being a therapist and working with people trying to help them connect with themselves and love themselves and honor themselves and honor the person that they are with, I hope that my book is a love letter, because that's what I wanted it to be, and so I hope it blesses lots of people.
Dr. Heather Browne:
I'm sure it will bless a lot of people. I know I feel blessed and I haven't even read the book.
Speaker 3:
I'm just speaking with you. I'll send you the Amazon link as soon as we're off.
Dr. Heather Browne:
That's great. Thank you so much again, Heather. I really appreciate it and we will talk again soon.
Speaker 3:
Sounds good. Bless you.
Dr. Heather Browne:
I feel so energized after talking to Dr Heather Brown. That was a great conversation. This whole feeling of leading with compassion in our lives and using that to help others and ourselves as well is so fascinating to me. I'm going to definitely go out and get her book. You can do that too. I will have all the links in the show notes for her website and obviously, for her book as well, and that will do it for another episode of the Kindness Matters podcast. Thank you for listening today. I appreciate it so much. We'll have another episode out next week, but in the meantime, be that person who roots for others, who tells a stranger they love and look amazing and encourages others to believe in themselves and their dreams. You've been listening to the Kindness Matters podcast. I'm your host, mike Rathbun. Have a fantastic week.