Career Development

This episode is from the #growthmonday #livewithrollis  show with guest:
🍊 Madeline Mann 🍊 

We talk about growing in your career, getting that interview and landing the job!

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Transcript

Rollis Fontenot III:

If you're really focusing on your career search. If you want to hear from someone who has walked in the shoes of an HR person to kind of give you some advice that she's got she's got a masterclass. And she's done a lot of great things on the career coaching side, so I want to welcome you to the show Madeline. Madeline man.
Thank you so much for having me here. Happy to be here.
We actually met on clubhouse, which was cool.
Yeah clubhouse has been a blast. I've just made such deeper relationships on there.
Yeah, it's been really cool, you know, and the past couple of weeks I haven't been on as much as I had been before. So I need to get back on it, any any late breaking stuff you want to share about clubhouse or your experiences on there.
Um, no, I so I spend a lot of my time helping others, giving, giving my expertise to others, but on clubhouse, I have taken the complete learner stance. Like I remember joining your room and you gave me some amazing advice and we talked in like one in the morning or something wacky like that and you're giving me advice on like the ways to hire for like a remote team and all that kind of stuff, and I just think that it really is great. I think a lot of people are promoting it in a way where they're like, Oh, this is a way to get your thought leadership out there. But, and I think it is, but I've just found, I've gotten so much great advice, even from my nutrition, and you know the different ways that I can I, yeah, like build teams and all of those things, there's just so many amazing people on they're just happy to have conversations about their favorite topics.
Awesome, I think I took the same stance as you that I was there originally more for the learning aspect, more so than hey you know, I'm awesome, come, come work with me kind of thing. And I've learned a lot on there, I think that this is actually might be a good cue for those who are looking for that next step in their career, they may learn some great stuff on there, what maybe within their industry, which is would you say,
Yes, I have your job search programs and in the coaching program we started getting. I had some invites to hand out and we started getting people into clubhouse, and it's not about necessarily only going into those rooms that are like, get your resume reviewed get your LinkedIn profile viewed which is good, but also get into those rooms where you're just simply having conversations about your industry, right that healthcare industry and these different dynamics and this and that and I think that that is an amazing way to just authentically build these relationships.
Yeah, that's a great point. No, I love that point and I would, you know, one of the things that we've been talking about a lot to where we think that things are going. Is is more about the human connection, more than ever. When it comes to looking for that next position so being able to network, like you said, having those deep meaningful conveIt is it this point so job searching, and applying to jobs has such a low barrier to entry, you know, before it was you'd have to mail something in or you're handed a piece of paper and you might have to drive there or mail it whatnot, and now they're such a low barrier of entry that there's so much noise. And so how do you get above the noise, you know people, you build relationships, they're not going to build relationships with, you know the 500 applicants they'll probably build relationships with five of the applicants who actually take make that effort. So I think with with job seeking becoming quote easier it's actually making it a lot harder, because there's just so much more noise and people are blasting out their resume to in every direction.
Oh this is awesome. So, man I want to kind of break down a couple of things that may be you. By the way, I want you to say your first name for me.
Madeline. Okay, Irsations, whether it's clubhouse or any other platform, being able to network that way. How important do you think that is in a job search.
It is it this point so job searching, and applying to jobs has such a low barrier to entry, you know, before it was you'd have to mail something in or you're handed a piece of paper and you might have to drive there or mail it whatnot, and now they're such a low barrier of entry that there's so much noise. And so how do you get above the noise, you know people, you build relationships, they're not going to build relationships with, you know the 500 applicants they'll probably build relationships with five of the applicants who actually take make that effort. So I think with with job seeking becoming quote easier it's actually making it a lot harder, because there's just so much more noise and people are blasting out their resume to in every direction.
Oh this is awesome. So, man I want to kind of break down a couple of things that may be you. By the way, I want you to say your first name for me.
Madeline. Okay, I
want to make sure I was saying your right okay, Madeline. So Madeline whenever we're whenever we are starting that extraordinary kind of rethink pivot in our career, what's one of the things that you do normally talk to a person about when they say you know what, I kind of want to make a shift. I don't think I'm going down the right path, I want to go into an area maybe I don't I don't have that experience, specifically for that job. I want to make that pivot, how do I get there, what advice would you give in that in that instance,
the best thing you could do is the first step is knowing exactly what that pivot is and if you know what you want to pivot into half the work is already done, amazing, you're focused, but a lot of people don't know what they want. So the first thing I would tell them is to get really clear about your next move because what so many people will do is they do what I call hitchhiking through your career, where they'll apply to a bunch of roles that seemingly could be a good fit, you know the read the job descriptions I think I could do that I could be good at that, and I call it hitchhiking because they send all these applications they stick out their thumb and whichever company's whichever rolls it choose them, that's where that's their next step, whoever gives them the offer that's where they go, which is a lot less intentional, so really zoo zoning in on that. And you know this very well, as well, that companies are actually looking for people who are extremely intentional about their career changes they don't want someone who is, you're going to be my career, experiment, I'm going to join your company, maybe I'll leave in a few months after I realized this isn't the right move for me because I didn't do the pre work on my own to understand if this is the right move. So, it comes from both sides right it comes from helping you to not make too many career changes in your life because you're more intentional and also the company's, they can smell it from mile away, they say, We don't want a career experimenter we want someone who even if they're changing careers, they're sure they're sure footed about it. So then the second step would be to start building relevant skills and experience, which people think is impossible. It's impossible to build experience without having someone hand me an offer letter I sign it and then then pay me money, but there's so many other ways to do that. It can be a matter of if you have a current job, start doing special projects at the current job and don't under value, even if it's a special project that you work on for three hours a week. If it is showing the skills that are needed for that next role, flaunt it make it your main bullets of your resume. I also think that personal projects are incredible. So, if, let's say I wanted to be a recruiter or something like that I would maybe, you know, volunteer, I have a neighbor who owns a brewery, like I would maybe volunteer to help him recruit staff now that that that breweries are open, I would maybe, you know, do, like, I'd be a part of an organization like a, an organization my community and I'd be the one to help recruit volunteers, all of these things show those skills without someone handing me an offer letter, and so really getting a bit more creative, and that's what people want to see on their resumes and that's how you overcome that gap.
Wow, that was, that was pretty amazing there I gotta give you this for that, that was there are so many things you hit on just now that I align with perfectly. I'm one of the things that, you know, sometimes they'll come to me as a recruiter, because they see the recruiter my background, hey, you know, I want to see if maybe you can help me out. I'm looking to kind of make a change over to healthcare, okay great. What what's what. What job are you looking for in healthcare. I'm not really sure I have this background, what do you think is best for me. That's not my job, I can't. I can't do that. My mind is blown at that point I cannot help someone who doesn't have specificity is not that specific about what they want, and an employer is also not going to want that they're not going to want to figure that out, what's better, no, no, maybe in some cases if you see someone, you get to know someone like going to your earlier point, if you get to know someone, maybe you get a chance to know their qualities like those top five applicants you talk about those five out of the 500 that they know, then they say you know what, Johnny Susie whatever I see you've got this skill set, you may not be the right fit for this one, but I got this other job for you. That's another thing, but it's based off specifics like they have this other job, right, that they can refer this person to, but someone like myself. I'm not going to be able to give that person advice without figuring out what they want. First, I love what you said about 50% of the battle is figuring out what you want being very specific, very intentional things it's very term use. I totally agree. We have a Katherine came in, Catherine says great to see you, Ross, well great, good to see you too Catherine thanks for being here, and those who also are just now signing in feel free list of what city or state, country you're signing in from, let us know where you are in your journey, are you looking right now, are you kind of thinking about making a career move. Is it something you've thought about have you thought about a pivot. Are you perhaps an employer or a talent acquisition recruiter or something of that nature, maybe you can give it, give some of your advice and your thoughts, and some of your experiences. So one of the things I wanted to cover to Mallon is in terms of the steps, I know you're gonna, you probably outline this in your class, maybe you can kind of give us a little bit of a cliff notes if you will, steps on maybe like, 123, as far as what you mentioned, I guess, step one is to be intentional about what you want, right, as probably number one, what what steps two and three be in this process
of making a career change.
So okay yeah so we had, you know, zoned in on exactly what your next step would be the second step would be really understanding, making sure you understand what you'll need to do that role. I think a lot of times people will read job descriptions and say, I can do those things it'll list maybe some soft skills. They'll think I'm a good communicator I know how to, you know, plan events and stuff like that and, and what they won't really read between the lines, or they won't have had conversations with people in the industry will understand okay here's here's the lingo, you need to know here's what they actually, you know, here's some of the cues of some of the things that you should have under your belt, and so they just kind of go into it being like why do I keep getting rejected is because everyone else who's getting the interview, has those specific things on their resume, and it's not that you can't get those on your resume, it's just that you need to be more intentional, so really making sure that you're having lots of informational interviews, not just relying on online research, but really understanding, okay, you know, as I'm talking to people in this industry. When they look at my resume, literally asking them, what, what would I have to change on my resume in order for me to be considered for a job at your company. And that can be very revealing. Then once you feel like your resume and your skill set is to a point that you can move forward. I say, Yes, applying online does work at times so I don't think that should be a completely disregarded approach but especially if you're a career changer. Typically people who get interviews from applying online are people who, who fit that industry who fit those role specifications pretty closely so if you've done really good pre work like building up the right experience then maybe applying online could be fruitful. But if you're feeling like there's some major gaps there. One way to, to overcome them, is what we're talking about earlier, is building those relationships, because when people get to know your character. When people get to know your passion and see how you have become quite the student of the industry and the profession, and that you bring a lot to the table they stop seeing you as a black and white Resume page and start seeing you as someone who is actually maybe bringing cross industry knowledge which will actually make their team better, who is bringing this dynamic view who is someone who they'd love to work with, and that completely changes the conversation so building those relationships, making sure it's a long term play instead of a short term play. I've had many people in my programs, where I like I keep telling them keeping persistent keeping persistent they'll get rejected for role that role will pop up again, because they've done such great work, building those relationships before, and continuing to work on themselves between when that role is open. I've had so many students my programs, land the role, the second time, because it's like as soon as it hits online, they have those relationships, they're like hey look what else I've done and they're like, oh my gosh, how can we not give this guy or gal, a chance, and then they just grab it.
Okay, so I have two questions I want to ask you hope I remember both of them that my first question is in terms of I wanna, I want to see what how this lands on you. So let's say I'm looking for a job, because you've got experience as a talent development manager on the HR side, as well as a career coach. How does land on you if, if you're seeing my application come in multiple times for multiple jobs. Let's say it's like I don't know, like 10 jobs have applied for at your company. What What are your thinking as an HR person or as a career coach, what do you think at that point. Oh,
I love this question because I'm almost ever asked it but it's such a real experience. So if it's all different roles, like they're applying for all different roles about the cross company it's at once a product manager role another one's a customer support another as a marketing coordinator, I'm gonna think, hell no, there's no way we're hiring this person because they, they cannot be good at all of those, they can be like okay or pour it all those roles but there's no way that they are like, amazing at all of them so they obviously are not targeted, and they haven't been building those skills and and their value isn't clear to the company. Now, if it's, they're applying for customer support associate and customer support team lead and, you know, member experience, associate you know, and I'm like, okay, okay like this person has, has like a realm and so that that wouldn't be a flag. I think one of the things that I want saw in someone's cover letter that ended up landing her an interview. Was she put in a cover letter. I applied to this role, six months ago, I was so excited to see it, open again. And here's why. And she said why she's so interested in the company and what she brought to the table and how that matched what the role was. And so, that spun her reapplying into a strength. So, her being persistent and saying, I have been watching your company, waiting, I applied before, I'm going to apply again. Companies want people who are passionate, and so that was a great indicator. So I would say yeah, just make sure that it is, but also the other thing the final thing I'll say on this topic is ideally, if you're, if you're applying and you're not getting responses or whatnot. Just make sure that your whole strategy isn't every time the job opens up to you to apply like there should be more proactive correspondence trying to build other relationships that kind of stuff
like that, that's a great point. So, basically what I'm getting from what you're saying is that you at least want to have a theme, right. So, you mentioned customer service. So, yeah, there are different jobs, different roles, but they're within that kind of like customer service kind of theme, versus the other example he gave was product manager and and customer service and all these different other things. I like that point so you got some balance, you have a balanced approach in that if there's a theme there if you if it's easy for the recruiter to see why you apply for all those different jobs that make sense, whereas others all over the map, they're like yeah this person doesn't know what they want. They don't know what they want. Did I get that right.
Okay, yeah, maybe it makes a lot of sense. Okay. My other question for you is, and I talked to someone about this not too long ago, I see a lot of people on LinkedIn, and maybe they do this in the resume too, they, they lead with 10 years of experience or 20 years of experience as a strength. And what I explained to someone is that that does that doesn't that doesn't differentiate you from anybody else because whatever everybody else has 10 years of experience, then how do you how do you differentiate yourself. So, what are your thoughts on that whole thing about do you lead first with the amount of years of experience is that something you tell your clients to lead with
wow this is another question I've never gotten, which I think is such an important one. I completely agree with you 10 years of experience 20 years experience whatever it is, is not yeah it's it's generic and also really especially in how fast things move today it's all about quality of experience. So if you have a quality of you are really up on the latest technologies and you can hire for React Native engineers which you, no one has 20 years experience of hiring React Native engineers because it didn't exist 20 years ago so stuff like that where it's like, we, you know, companies want to see that you have specialized knowledge in the things that you would be doing for the company and so yeah I think that really emphasizing those certain expertise, and also as you know, in the job interview in the resume, almost, you know, companies very rarely look beyond the last role the last two roles last three roles after like three roles are like okay yeah yeah that was that's old news like let's focus on what you've done lately and so I think really, like, let's focus more on what what are some of your key accomplishments, especially as of late, what are some of the skills you've been building over time. And, and, yeah, I think also, if you ever putting years of experience on your LinkedIn, or your resume and it doesn't almost nearly exactly match the job description that could actually be a trap for you to be determined as overqualified or under qualified and we don't want to make it that easy for people to to disqualify you.
Okay, I have so many notes on this I have so many questions now. Okay, so probably those in the in the in the audience if you have any questions let me know, I'm but I'm gonna keep running lists, I'm gonna try and get, I'm trying to I'm trying to ask questions that will hopefully that will help some of these folks who maybe they're afraid to ask on their own or don't know to ask. One of them is you said earlier you said cover letter, you said you read a cover letter. Now, I personally as a recruiter, have not utilized cover letters that much, I'm looking straight at the resume, but I noticed you said cover letter, in your experience, how important is a cover letter. And how often do does the HR team look at cover letters.
Okay, so I think you and me in this session right now is the perfect example of about 50% of people read cover letter so I read cover letters you don't like that's really normal. And so, that's not an exact step but it's just basically it's a flip of a coin. Right. and what happens is, if the coin comes up, you know tails or reading the cover letter, that could make or break your application, that could be an amazing way for you to get in. Now, if it come up comes up heads. It could be that you just, you know, quote wasted time writing that cover letter, which is a total bummer, like, Why did I do that so there's definitely pros and cons, but I would say for me, and what I've noticed typically is, you know, for those who are at larger companies a lot higher volume hiring and that kind of stuff, cover letters often go to the wayside. But as you get more into medium and small organizations, that's when cover letters can really make a big difference because when it comes to, I've worked at some companies that had some niche industries, I worked in the blockchain industry, where we found that it was easier to hire people who are already passionate about the technology than to convince someone who is unfamiliar with the technology of what it was and why you should think it's cool. And so, I would look for in the job in the cover letter, people who already took that initiative and we would hire people who were less qualified, but more passionate, simply because, you know, these types of companies I mean they run on people who are very iterative and are willing to work in uncertainty and build their skills and really have that longevity, where they can be passionate about their work and so it depends on the type of company but that was a case where cover letters, really truly were make or break because we were really saying okay we're going to hire really smart people and train them and help them with their skills a bit as long as they have the baseline skills and the baseline passion.
I like this. Okay so in my field, in, in healthcare, I'm going to give example let's say it's registered nurse, and they have years of experience. Let's say it's our nurse, and they're looking for an or a nurse position. That's where I think and I also qualify. When I said don't want to cover cover letters, I don't look at them first. I will look at a cover letter, if, if I need to feel I feel like I need more information, right, especially if it's like one slip like if it's 5050 kind of thing. But if it's an or nurse, and it's for an or job, and they have like three or four years of experience. I'm not really concerned about the cover letter. I'm like let's get him on the phone to see if they're a fit. It's more cut and dry. But I can see it where, especially where like you what you said you want to see somebody who's passionate about the field or in the case, I would maybe you'll agree with me on this, if they're fresh out of school, or it just kind of explained the reason why they applied for that job or what, maybe some of the stuff they've done in the past, that is applicable to that job, or maybe it's for an executive position to have also found love the point you made for the small and medium sized companies, But for the executive position I probably would expect some level of a cover letter at some point, if it's like a CEO or CFO, I would think, yeah, I would definitely read that. That's another one just kind of follow if you have any more clarifications on hearing with cover letters.

I really agree with what you said when you said I look at the cover letter to clear things up to get a little bit more information that and job seekers should know this that cover letters are not the first, first line of defense. Start with the, the resume, and then the cover letter gives more detail. Absolutely. And you're right, like if someone is right on the money like they are perfectly qualified exactly we're looking for your right, cover letter, you can probably get by without having one or having a very brief one, but I think there's some things where, especially for career changers, a look at the resume and think okay I can understand how someone with this background would have transferable skills into this, but it kind of seems, but I want to make sure on their cover letter, that this is an intentional move that they're explaining why or anything that's like a little bit funky about the resume, they can explain in the cover letter and be like hey like I know it looks like I, I wasn't working between this time but here's why, or something like that. It's, yeah, the cover letter is to really clarify those things.

I love that point okay. What this is, this is where I would love a cover letter, let's someone, let's say someone's been hopping around a lot. They got a lot of different jobs, they explain the cover letter, why I'm seeing so much movement on their positions I know either myself or the hiring manager gonna warn like why this person I would like for jobs in the past five years. So I think that cover letters could really help on that stuff because I could explain hey look this this company merged this company got bought out, you know, my husband moved or my wife moved or what, I don't know, just something to kind of help give some, some background on why there was, why they're why I'm seeing what I'm seeing. I think is a big help. So thank you for clarifying my thoughts on, like, I think I have a more balanced view, because I was like before this conversation I was like, oh, yeah, a couple letters, it's kind of outdated. But now as I'm talking to you like yeah I do see, I do see what it could be still useful in a lot of cases. Thank you for that. Okay, so Madeline. What, what's probably what's one of the biggest mistakes that youth, you see people make in their job search, either a pet peeve or a biggest mistake that you've thought of, and thanks to all my comments coming in from from I think he's, He's he's he's way across the world. He sees dialing in. So thanks for coming in. But yeah, what's your thoughts on that, your your biggest pet peeve, or biggest mistake.

One of the biggest mistakes is oftentimes, and we, we've kind of talked about this briefly of folks in healthcare industry or in other industries, of thinking about applying online or applying to jobs pursuing jobs as you submit an application just like you would when you're going, you're trying to get into a master's program or an undergrad program or whatnot, you submit an application, and you wait patiently and all of the applications are reviewed and then at the end you learn, if you were accepted or not, that is not always the way companies, roll, they might, you know, they might open up applications, they might get through some of them but there's too many so they start setting up interviews with the ones that they come up first, or with the ones that slide across their desk from previous interviews have they done before but they didn't. They didn't hire them, but they still want to possibly interview them again and referrals, like there's all these different inputs and your resume, simply just may never be read, ever. And so what's detrimental about that is you might have been the perfect person for that role, but because the, you know, digital pile of resumes is so high, and there's all these different inputs you sitting on the sidelines is actually hugely detrimental. So, what I really recommend is, is, yeah, making sure that your resume is seen building these relationships getting referred into companies, following up with the, with the hiring manager or whoever is in charge of that process, and just making sure that the job search is more active, and I always really simple way to understand. If you're doing a good job is, is how many interactions with humans you have, so never count and apply online as something is like a check the box. No, you need to have an interaction with a person, sending an email, a LinkedIn message a comment on a post any sort of correspondence that counts as a really productive, job search move.

Oh I like that, that's that's really cool. Okay, so you made me think of something else just now. Oh wow. The question was on the tip of my tongue, and I forgot I wanted to get your opinion on this. Oh, what was that, by the way we got someone else just came in and said, beautiful show. So thank you. Um, what was that, okay, you were talking about replay that last point for me again, it because as you're saying,

so saying you shouldn't measure your job search in application submitted but interactions with people. Oh yes,
yes. Okay, interactions, okay. So, what types of interactions, do you think are the most meaningful during a job search, describe for me, because we know applications that doesn't count. Don't just like spray and pray and 100 You know 100 applique. So we want to be specific. What other interactions, because sometimes people are really confused about what's appropriate, of what kind of interaction should I have with this potential recruiter or hiring manager, they just interviewed me can Should I, should I email that hiring manager directly, should I go through the recruiter, what should I do, so I know this is going to allow folks minds, what kind of interactions are good. As you're as you're coaching your clients.

Yes, you definitely one of the worst ones is sending your resume and saying hey can you refer me Hey, I want this job like please consider me, it's just, it just really kind of is very transactional, I really recommend a bit more of a customized approach. So it could be setting up an informational interview someone or asking for an informational interview saying, you know, hey, Patti. I saw that we both have master's in Organizational Psychology, and you ended up following this path of talent development, I would. Would you be open to spending 15 minutes, so I can hear about your story. And then you can get on the phone, and of course, naturally, you'll tell Patti about like who you are, what are your aspirations right now I'm looking for my next role, I'm considering the industry you're in. How do you like working at your company. And this is a way, and here's the, here's the wild thing people love telling their story people love sharing their wisdom, it feels very fulfilling to a lot of people. So if they say yes, they're saying yes, because they will enjoy this conversation too. And I think one of the things is, is I you know I did get my masters at USC and they have this, this activity where they tell all the other masters students to do informational interviews with alumni, and I did a bunch of them where they called me, and so many of them would get on the phone, and they'd have their list of questions, and it would be so efficient to be like, Hello. Okay, tell me about your typical day. Okay. What is your least favorite thing about your job, and I'd get off the phone and I was like, I don't know who I just spoke to was it a robot, like really part of it is being human, having conversation, building a relationship, it's not a transaction, I think we need to get out of that mindset.

Ah, this is this is going, that's I love that this is a great one. Okay, so I have another follow up question for you. I think that a lot of times today, with the amount of resumes and applications that are coming in for the recruiters themselves and hiring managers, it's incredibly confusing because I read a study not too long ago, this is the oldest study that anytime we're presented with more than seven choices at one time, it becomes becomes increasingly difficult for us to differentiate one choice from another, it doesn't matter what it is, if it's seven cars that look pretty much the same or if it's seven kinds of chocolate seven cans of wine. What seven is kind of our magic number that's a max. Once you get like an eight 910 12 It's like it's hard like Okay, I can't remember. I tasted that well I'm not sure if I like that one if it was this is this one here, we start getting mixed up. So my question to you is with these jobs that have 50 100 200 300 applications coming in, and it being so difficult for the differentiate. What are some things you're suggesting to your clients to help to differentiate them and do you agree with the thought of, there's just too many choices sometimes for hiring managers to make.
Absolutely there's too many choices. There's also a lot of distrust. When you're looking at these resumes. One out of four every, out of every four resumes has a lie on it. How do you know which one has a lie on it, I don't know you. So what do they end up doing they end up taking, you know, Bob in accounting walks over with a resume says hey, you should hire you know you should interview this guy he seems pretty cool and we go, we're looking at this, this resume pile like sure Bob like Bob knows something that I don't know about this person like that makes my decision easier so that's why referrals are so potent because it helps just get away from this, this pile of the unknowns. And so yes, I think it's, I think the referral is is definitely a silver bullet. I think the the follow up the relationship building. And also, I mean, if we're going to talk about some of the more edgy things to do. It might be that you put together some sort of really cool like for example I was watching Tic Toc the other day and I was swiping through, and this guy proposed a new app for David dobrik who's like a for anyone who's familiar with him, he's like a major like YouTuber tick tock guy, he like proposed a new app for him, and he's like at the end of it because like this is my this is my job application like cuz he's like building it on the platform that David dobrik is really talented on, And so it's just like, you know, just thinking about ways that you can stand out where you can show your skills in a way that is not just the way that they're asking for it, which is typically a resume.
Ah, like that, that's a great idea. Yeah, thank you. You're not your enemy at this one lady, years ago, it was on LinkedIn, she had put something on because she couldn't, couldn't find a job hardly anywhere and she really wanted Airbnb, she wanted so bad. And she end up putting like this big posting about Airbnb and it kind of went viral, and she got the attention of the CEO, I don't know, she ended up getting the job or not but she got the ticket to the CEO of Airbnb. That's how successful she was with, with her post so that's a great idea. Okay, so my other thing is, when it comes to. Okay, going back to ease we talked about that, that interview with the person, what should the person should have done differently when that whenever they got you on the phone, your willingness and I agree with like most people are willing to share their experience when they got you on the phone, what should they have done first, at the very this construct that call more perfectly.
Yeah, so, so we're talking about informational interviews, this person is, you know has a budding Human Resources career they hop on the phone with someone who, who, like me who has, has years of experience in the field, they hop on in the first thing I want to hear is, is who they are, like, and sometimes people take this too short, like oh, actually I've seen more people take this too short than too long but I've seen it go both ways, too short means. Hi, I won't take up too much your time, what do you do every day, you know it's just like, okay, like they just think I would never want to know anything about you, which is very humble but it's not true, I would I, when some we're calling someone and doing an informational interview. You want to know who you're talking to you want to know the context about what they're passionate about because that's going to change what I say in the conversation as well it's going to change how I relate to you and how I deliver information, and so you want to give like a couple minutes about, um, you know, I thought I was going to be a marine biologist, but then I did, I took this class and I realized I'm really interested in social psychology, and, you know, here are the types of roles I'm interested in and that's why I was so excited and and saying why you're excited to talk to that person. That's why I was so excited, talk to you because I saw that you also have a background, you know, in biology and kind of moved into this space or whatever, I don't actually have a background in biology, but, um, but really just kind of giving that context and then me as a person. Okay, great. And then I, the second thing is make sure that you are leading the conversation I've been in some of these where it gets a little bit awkward, where it's like, like I'm kind of, I can be sometimes say, like, uh, I don't know, dominating presence is the right word but you know I, I'm, you know, ready to talk ready to chat, and sometimes it almost feel like, oh, you know, I should probably let her lead the conversation, it's like no no you call me like I'm here to, I'm here to just reflect the information that you're looking for. So make sure you're in control of the call and then just really make sure that you've done, like you should never ask them a question that could be very easily looked up, like, How long have you been at your company. Um, you know what, what did you study in undergrad, like, you know, of course, if those things are not on their LinkedIn profile. Of course you can ask them, but it is, is like really, you know, not that great if someone's kind of spending your time doing that, I know at this point there's, like, you know, I'm definitely much more discoverable than your average person. So, that is a bit different but most people they do have a lot of information online anyways to get those baseline questions, and then I would say the final thing is, you'd be so surprised, is how few of people who when they've asked me to do informational interviews with them, how few of them say thank you, like, very rarely do they do I get an email later saying hey, that was really helpful to me because of XYZ, have a great, you know, week, month life, you know, And so I think that it's amazing it's such a missed opportunity because you should be thanking them you should be following up with them a month later, telling them hey you know you told me about this this and this, here's how I'm implementing it, people actually want to hear about what how what they said impacted you. Even if you do the opposite of what they said or even if you end up not going in that career direction because they, they're part of your journey now and so I think that's a huge missed opportunity for most people.
That was great. I, because I've given a lot of advice over the years to help people take time out of my schedule to help them and never got to think, no follow up, whatsoever, and never really offered anything to the router, or in a reciprocal society so you would think that if you spend the time to help them they will come back and say hey you know what you helped me that way. Is there any way I can add value to you or help you. I have several never don't do that, but I will say this, a large percentage still do follow up later. They do say thank you, and that's where that which I very much appreciate it. So I agree with you 100% that a simple thank you really helps, and not just like thank you at the end of the call, like you said, following up later.
Yeah. Yeah,
it makes 100% sense to me. What are some things I can expect if I'm looking to make this career either change or just looking to level up in my career and I'm taking, I'm going to this course you're talking about. I'm just curious like how long is this course. How long can I expect to see results from it, I just want I'm just curious at this point what, because this is masterclass and that's all I know.
Yeah, so I have, I have two programs, one, one, you can access right now on my website which is called standout resume, which is like, like really like in one weekend you can knock out your resume it like has been getting people like interviews within days of doing it. It's, it's affordable, you kind of like get in get out, and I'm in there in a private community giving people feedback on the resumes every day so that one's a blast, and then my one, which is my one where I'm actually giving live coaching so I just get all these requests all the time of like, I want to work directly with you, Madeline and so I have that, then that one is kind of like the, the bigger course which is called standout job search, and that one is where there is group coaching and it's, it's full A to Z from like your resume to your cover letter to your, all of these like networking approaches that I've never released and there's all these different frameworks and email templates, it's like, it's basically like a culmination of all of the things that are like almost a little bit too potent to make to public because I don't want to make it oversaturated and where everyone's using the same approaches so I put all those kind of secret edgy approaches into one course where it has coaching and a private community and all that and so that has been an absolute blast and that's actually what I think you're referring to is I just recently did a masterclass to welcome people into that, and people have been flowing into the program, and it's just been it's just been really fun and really cool program.
Cool. Excellent, um, any, any tips you want to give on resumes specifically from, let's put your HR hat on, because I know you're on the you're on the HR side still, when those resumes come in, what are the one of the first things you notice on a resume. Hmm.
So resumes, when, when you look at a resume, it's typically, um, you scan it in more of like an F pattern so the top of the resume. The top area really gets a lot more attention, and there's kind of offshoots as you go down but if you kind of like then there's a kind of a scanning along the side that is, is less dense. So really the information at the top of your resume is really compelling right like you notice, are they in this city that I'm interviewing for. What's their most recent job title like is this, you know what, what kind of company, are they just working at, those are some of like the top cues that just immediately stand out.
Okay. By the way, When you said earlier about one in four resumes have a lie on them. You reminded me of a movie I saw recently, Tom and Jerry.
Oh, I haven't yet. Okay.
So, there, there's a situation where this lady basically just rips off the top of the resume, and puts her name at the top and presents itself as if it's her and they were so impressed in her experience. But like, it wasn't just like one out of four, it was literally everything on the resume except it was at the top. Listen today it has been an awesome, awesome day, really appreciate all the advice and stuff you gave. Any, any thoughts you want to leave folks with as we kind of wind up things in terms of in terms of job search career resume whatever you want to share.
I think it's really all about having clarity about your next step, and then making efforts to not treat it as a numbers game, but more of a relationship game.
I like to, yeah, like they're very much. What's advice you would give yourself before you start, let's say you just graduated from from USC is, what advice would you give to that version, Madeline.
Yeah, I think that we sometimes we emphasize, especially on our resumes, what we're most proud of, and what we put our blood sweat and tears into and, you know 50 hours a week we worked on that that was the biggest project we did. Instead of focusing on what is the most relevant information to the company, and I think a lot of times we're too close to our own story so people will emphasize things that just in their head, they're like, oh, like if I can only tell you the story like it
was, it was changed
my life and that's how I became the person I am, but it's like yeah but does it show the skills and does it show a very logical connection to exactly what you'll do in this job. No it doesn't. And so I think really reframing it you have to think about from the company's perspective and so that's, that's like I have this thing called like the glory formula that I teach my programs that each letter of glory stands for a different thing and it gives you this very intentional process and I've had people go through and be like, wait, I get it now, I have been doing. I thought my glory was something else I've been focusing on all the wrong things, and it just completely, you need that complete mindset shift.
Oh, like that. Okay, one last question for you I wanted to ask. It's always stressful when you put in your resume and your your your applet your application and you're waiting for a response, or you put in for that you did this interview, you think you nailed it. But you still have to wait to get an answer back. What are some things that you suggest to deal with that stress of waiting.
So there's two things you do off the bat. First thing is, don't assume that that that opportunity is going to come through for you, so keep your job search moving full speed. And the second thing to do is to not assume that you're not getting it, so still, still also consider that you might still get it even if it's been a few weeks, and I actually did it folks want to go, it's like right on the front page of my website Madeline man calm I wrote a follow up email templates for you to send. And so if you just send those follow up email templates. You can often hear back a lot faster, but I just don't want you to read like, oh, it's been two and a half weeks that means they hate me. No, like they're these people who are hiring are the busiest people in the organization. The only reason they're hiring is because they have more work than they have people, so don't take it as a signal that they hate you, but also don't take a signal as I got the interview that's my top choice. I'm going to just cruise, keep the pedal to the metal, but also keep following up.
That's gold right there. I want to see what the audience has to say welcome.
Very good. So, Joanne, just put your, she just, she just put your website and they can the comments, those of you who are watching. And those of you watching, please if you're watching even the replay go ahead and put in your comments what resonated with you the most, what was the best tip you heard over our session today I'm curious, and if you have any follow up questions let us know myself and Madeline are both tagged in this, so we'll be able to see your questions. So feel free to ask a question, even if you're watching the replay. Thank you for watching today. Let's say bye to everyone. Hi everyone. As are awesome.