How To Achieve More Intimacy With The Questions We Ask - Topaz Adizes

How do you create intimacy and openness in the digital world?

I interviewed Topaz Adizes, the creator of The And web series and card game, to hear his methods of preparing exes or strangers to open up candidly in front of a camera. The Emmy award-winning director has captured difficult conversations from thousands of people all around the world and we get to talk about how intimacy is shifting in the digital age, how to achieve more intimacy with the questions we ask, what makes people open up, and more. 

Tune in every other Tuesday for a new episode on Heart of Humans. 

3:31 Journey from filmmaker to digital creator
11:55 Intimacy is shifting because of the digital age
14:28 Our responsibilities in relationships in the digital age
17:51 Challenging conversations have the most payoff
22:03 Asking the best questions so you don't solve the wrong problem
22:38 Questions grew from the pain in childhood
25:16 How to create space for people's opinions
26:13 Intimacy in the Zoom (video) room
28:22 How to use your courage and vulnerability without fearing the consequences
31:34 How he prepares guests to open up and be authentic

You can find The And web series, card game, app and podcast here:
www.theskindeep.com

You can find Topaz Adizes's website here: 
www.topazadizes.com

Transcript

Jen Li: 0:01

The heart of humans podcast explores the secrets to building flourishing relationships. We demystify the elements of desire, trust and love by interviewing conscious lovers and providing reflections to help you create the relationships of your dreams. I had the opportunity to talk to a thought provoking human was produced several viral videos after an interesting transition from filmmaker to digital creator, Topaz. dieses is the founder of the skin deep and interactive design studio creating content and products that deepen human connection. I found the Emmy Award winning web series four years ago, when I watched it on YouTube, family members, couples and strangers engage in the most honest, unfiltered conversations all in front of the camera and then shared with millions of people worldwide. There were conversations that moved me to absolute tears. Just because I've never seen conversations like that before. We explore how intimacy is shifting in the digital age, how to achieve more intimacy with the questions that we ask, what makes people open up, and more. In this episode, I hope you discover the strength and courage to start meaningful conversations by asking the questions that invite in your humanity. Topaz, it's so nice to have you here. And I'm so excited to get into this. But before we start, I want to ask you what something people would be surprised to know about you.

Topaz: 1:46

That's something that people will be surprised to know that we owe, like who like to strangers, because no one's

Jen Li: 1:54

gonna be your friends. It could be strangers. Yeah. Like for me? I'll give you my example. Most people don't know that I don't drink alcohol.

Topaz: 2:05

Well, I guess. I mean, first thing that comes to mind is that maybe like my first kiss was like, at the end of junior year of high school, maybe playing basketball.

Jen Li: 2:19

Wow. That's authentic. I respect that. Yeah, it's been especially women at that age, assuming that you are women into women that in that

Topaz: 2:33

case, I was. I just think that's like, I feel like that's this kind of like that you hear that often. But I just the first person, first woman I kissed the first person I kissed I was end of last month of junior year of high school. So I'm a late bloomer, but I kind of was very shy. But I also knew that, you know, I didn't want to become physically intimate until I felt emotionally prepared for it. And, and that was the time that I did. And that's when it kind of unfolded. So people might be surprised to know, because I don't think that's right. I don't know what normal is. But I think definitely amongst my friends that was abnormal, too late.

Jen Li: 3:23

Well, you're advocating for an intimacy. And so I think that that would come as a surprise. I am curious, how did your journey lead you to create interactive documentaries like the end and the dig today,

Topaz: 3:40

I just began studying film in the language of cinema. And I considered going to film school but then decided just to kind of create my own course and teach myself and learn by doing and so I did that. And then I did that for about 15 years of working as a film director. That became kind of my thing. I had some success with some short films and festivals. And I think what Columbo needed really was putting a film of mine that went to can by accident on Vimeo without a password. The accident was it didn't have a password, because back then, like don't put out your short film. before it goes in festivals. And on the online keep it away from online because it's got premiere festivals, but by adding it put it on Vimeo without a password. That week, Vimeo picked it up as short of the week. And in a week, I had 400,000 views. And that shifted my thinking to saying what game am I playing? Am I in the game of creating, you know, cinema in the theater, which to me is like modern day meditation, because you're sitting there for 90 minutes, though your audience's is is focused their breathing patterns consistent They're, like modern day meditation? Or am I in the game of injecting ideas into the mainstream? And if I was like, well, the second idea is really interesting injecting ideas in the mainstream, I start to ask myself a different question. Right now like, how do I become a filmmaker? How do we wait for features? Like, what game? am I playing? am I playing the game of cinema, in theaters? Or by playing the game of injecting ideas in the mainstream? Oh, well, that's really interesting. I like that idea. Well, if that's the case, look, what just happened with the short film is how much time money and energy would have taken me to get 40,000 people seen in theaters, forget about there's no model for it. It's so difficult, but it costs a lot of publicity and money that instead you put online, and look what happens in a week, cool. I think the power of the end, which is deep listening, in the sense that two people are facing each other, asking questions. And you've removed an interviewer, because the two interviewees are the interviewers, it's just that there's no therapist is no, Oprah there's no somebody interviewing them. They're interviewing each other. And so because of that, immediately, after the first second, third question, they forget about the whole context. They forget about the cameras, and they're having a real conversation. And I think that we rarely get to see raw, honest, real conversations in the media that we're fed.

Jen Li: 6:27

Yeah. Yeah. So I, because you're saying that you're also building like a library of experiences for people to learn from? As I write?

Topaz: 6:37

Yeah, yeah, that's the full manifestation of the end. So just to give your audience like an idea. vn is an experience that illuminates the connection between what I mean by that is like, even the name, the end is a relationship with you. And I, us and them, it's the end of connection with you. How can we see that? How can you and I see that? And how can an audience see our connection? Well, in this case, we saw people having a conversation that would give them questions, I will see their faces at the same time. So you're reading the micro nuances in the face of the pauses, the reactions. And from that, as an audience, you get a sense of feeling of their connection, not by what they say, but by how they're communicating and voice, like verbally is just one part of communication. But there's so many other right, yeah, micro expressions, body language, posture, their tone of voice, you having a chance to watch that puts you right in the space of the and the space between them. And what happens is when you are in that space of other relationships, this raw, vulnerable, intimate space of other relationships, what naturally happens is you start wondering about the relationships in your life. Right? That's right, you start wondering, oh, how does this pertain to mine? How, how similar might have this conversation this dynamic? Or how different? Or what if I had this part of my life, and that is a that's what we've been building for the last years with last eight years with the end. And the full version of that is a social platform that is a library of 1000s and 1000s, and 1000s of conversations that are visually recorded in auditory recorded, so that you can type into this platform, you know, I'm scared of being unemployed. I mean, goes into 1000s of relationships, dealing with the same thing. So awesome. Like, you can watch it. It's like a library of human relationships for 21st century. So we're building that, you know, obviously, we have a podcast as well called us illuminated. And we have a YouTube series at this Kennedy talking about so. But that's where you found us. And

Jen Li: 9:06

that's right at the skin deep calm. You had mentioned that the nature of intimacy is shifting because of the digital age. What do you mean by this? Exactly?

Topaz: 9:19

We're living in epic times. We all know that. And everyone's wondering how that's affecting many different aspects of our lives, or like society and politics. You know, how is it affecting the emotional reality a big part of our experience as human beings? And it's because there are a whole new ways of connecting and engaging and we don't realize in our lifetime how much it shifted. Right? What I mean by that is a fifth a 12 year old kid now i don't think will have the experience in any kid younger will have the experience of column someone's house. Have somebody they like sweating with anxiety right? Dad Big Brother living sister will pick up because they can directly connect with them on Facebook and WhatsApp or tik tok or whatever, bypassing all the other kind of gatekeepers, where I was going up if you call someone that you'd like to call their home, and call my own number, which I share with four or five other people, that doesn't happen anymore. Yeah, as you go 1520 years, we will be unimaginable that you get on a plane sitting next to somebody for four hours, rubbing your elbow together, because just sharing this middle, you know, armrest and not talk to them. But everyone's on their phone everyone movie, it's okay to be in an Uber car. And not even really speak to them because you're on your phone and they're driving. You would never get in a taxi 15 years ago that actually talking them giving even simply given them the direct right of payment, the cash. Now you can get into a car that shows up at your house. You don't have to say a single word, it takes you to where you need to get to you get out you don't say a single word, you close the door, and you've paid them. Like the home now. That seems so simple. Now, it's so obvious, but it wasn't 10 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Airbnb was like a crazy idea when they say that this is this is gonna be crazy. They couldn't get investors because they thought people are gonna be God knows what's going to happen when you give someone your home. But now it's normal. And so new generations are drawing up in this normal, what they think is normal, they don't realize that things have shifted. Mm hmm. And so in this shift, how do we bring more conscientiousness to how we are living? By living, I'm speaking directly about how we're engaging relating to

Jen Li: 12:06

Right, right, and how we're interacting with people. Our

Topaz: 12:09

Yeah, and now with COVID it's just oil on fire. I mean, things have been shifting already so much in the last 1015 years. But now with COVID is like hyperspeed is like 3x fast. Right? Um, so you know, and, you know, just look at, I have a your one year old son. He was born with people wearing masks. He was born on March 24. He was born seeing people with math lab last year, March 24 2020. So what world is he going to grow up? And what is he going to assume is always been the case.

Jen Li: 12:49

Right? When he when he thinks it's normal to be in a car with another stranger and not talk to them?

Topaz: 12:55

Sure. Or I remember my grandfather, you know, I will be talking on the phone. And he would, you know, flicking on a football in the air. So you don't use phones to talk to people. You use phones to arrange a time and meet him in the park and talk to people in the park. Now, we don't even talk on the phone. We send text messages and what's bad monologue voicemails, I

Jen Li: 13:20

always believed it was strange to to talk on the phone for so long. Like when people talk about having a great connection with someone if I spoke like three hours or four hours with someone, like it's great. I'm like, how did you? How do you do that? But besides the point, I think you're making a clear indication that the society is now just unlike any other generation. And there is this dichotomy of technology that's separating us. But I think the end with what the hand is doing is really helping users bridge this gap. Like there are other channels that are doing this, too. I think like Jubilee is doing this cut is doing this where they're doing like real voyeuristic views into people's relationships, instead of what we're used to seeing on social media.

Topaz: 14:22

Sure. I don't think it's changed. I think I don't think it's good or bad. I think it's really important. I think it's really important, how we what questions we ask ourselves, I think there's been a long conversation of like, is this good or bad? I don't think that's a good question. You know, is this strange or normal or good like that? Just because you think it's happening? It's here. You can't stop it. It's like a flood came. You got to think about the flood is good or bad. It's here, like, what are we doing about? So this rapid flow that we're in, it's shifting the way we're It's here. Question is, what responsibility do we each taking? for ourselves and for each other? And for ourselves? I mean, like, as an individual, what content am i watching? How much time am I spending on Instagram? How much I was spending on what? What? Where am I spending my time? How, you know? How what, what media Am I ingesting just like vitamins, right? Just like the food you eat makes up, you know, your body. Same with media makes up your mental MindScape. Right. So that and then to for others, like, I just can deep I feel my team and I personally could speak, I feel very fortunate. Do something I love. And I'm doing something they feel is bringing more conscientiousness to the way we live with each other on an individual level on a communal level. And for me, it's like, okay, that's my way of contributing, of recreating the conversation. So that hopefully, in the format session, and where we build a Wikipedia pure relationships, where my grandkids says, Oh, yeah, grandpa was part of that. So if they want to see what a transgender relationship was going and contending with in 2010 2015, they can see that in the beautiful, beautiful, kind of like archive of our human connection and how it's evolving, right? Well, we want to, we now take for granted, we were one shot by, right? Once we what we now take for granted, we are one shocked by IE when Tinder first came out or OkCupid, or match, you're like, Oh, I'm gonna be so strange. And that's weird that I announced like, is it is not the Tinder thumb left, right? Like, what are you continue to go to people even use more? oil? Right? But it becomes so normal? Yeah, become so normal? Yeah. And I don't think we recognize how quickly we shift. And just bring consciousness to that shifting will hopefully bring us more present to ourselves as the relationships that arise. And then from there and can decide what to do. Yeah,

Jen Li: 17:17

well, I really got present to how much we take for granted, even the experiences that what, for what looks like a hard or difficult to go through is actually an experience in itself that that makes relationships so strong and unique. And I absolutely see that from from the people that you bring on to the show. how, you know, my next question is like, after filming 1000s of conversations from people all around the world, what is the most challenging conversation for people to have? That you find

Topaz: 18:06

the elephant in the room? I guess? That's a good question. What's the most difficult conversation to have? Or the one that the one that you don't want to talk about? You don't want to talk about that's the one that you do everything to avoid. And I what I know from personal life is like the one you don't want to talk about the thing you don't want to do the the conflict you don't want to face. That's the one that has the most payoff. Right? That's the one that like, if you do tackle it, if you do step into it, if you do lean into it, and take it on. And you then you weather the storm with that process, the payoff is greater than any other option you could go explore. And this was like, oftentimes, the path to like growth, and success and whatever we is litter is like not littered case marked. Benchmark is highlighted. The route is highlighted by where you don't want to go. The things you don't buy, like where the fear like the conflict, okay, why don't want to go there? Well, actually, why don't we go there? Why don't we open that up? And we keep following that. It'll actually lead you to the spot that might be most I'm not saying like go straight seek outcome, but I'm saying once in your life. Don't pretend like it's not there. Yeah. Gotta face it. You got to go into it. Yeah.

Jen Li: 19:50

I mean, it tends to I don't know from your experience, but in my experience, it tends to follow me around if I don't face it.

Topaz: 20:00

Bigger, gets bigger. Yeah, yeah, I think the flip side of that question like when you ask people, What's the hardest conversation to have? One thing I have learned from watching all these 1000s of conversations, is it's really important to be cognizant of the questions you ask. And so often in our lives, especially in Western society, we're so focused on the answer. Right, which we should like trying to solve, that we don't realize, maybe we're trying to solve the wrong problem. So before you put all the energy, take all that energy of solving and turn around and focus the energy on asking the best question for that moment. After right, but the best question for that moment for that situation? And then guess what? The answer unveils itself, it becomes so clear. Oh, my God. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's that is such that's like the biggest learning I've seen. It's just Oh, it's like, when you ask another question, it creates a new neural pathway, in your thinking, your values in your in your the MindScape, of how you, you view your reality, right?

Jen Li: 21:21

A change, for instance? Yeah, it changes the way you look at yourself as a human being.

Topaz: 21:28

Yes. And therefore, it changes your possibilities. And therefore changes who you be, who you can be. But if you're just focused on solving it and finding the answer, it gets hard. If you focus on asking a better question, it gets easier.

Jen Li: 21:50

Yes, absolutely. So I want her to really get to know how you come up with these questions, because you make people answer questions like, if you were to cheat on me, what would it be for? Or like, which one of my friends do you like the least? It's like, the questions themselves. You write them in a way where people have to answer it specifically, how do you come up with these questions?

Topaz: 22:21

It's hard for me to answer that question. Because there's so many different conferences have that come together to create that, and I have to say, like, look at my life, as baller parents got divorced, very young. I have great relations with them both. But you know, I witnessed their divorce, front and center stage, two people trying to connect with current and their greatest fears was what the other was calling out in them, you know, to people who rather difficult to connect with on an intimate level. And that created the Hump the pain in me, which turned into the hunger to search for these intimate connections with others. And the way I would do that is by asking questions, right. And then I stumbled after many years into the end, which is funny, it's like stumbling into a gift that that gift is come from the pain of my childhood, but it's a gift that because I've been able to like, just, I don't know where it comes, it comes from that, but like, how I do it, fortunately, with my team and at this candy, but we have some incredible like team members, you know, together, we've been able to like, create our process for how we create the questions, how it comes up, is still very much. And we've practiced it by, you know, through, we've hosted over 1000 conversations now for the last seven years we're at or now we've hosted so we see what questions work and whatnot, and also what sequence? There's many tricks to that. Not tricks, but many strategies to that is what's the sequence of the question. But do you leave a grammatical mistake or not? Because sometimes, if you leave a grammatical mistake, it creates a space for a little bit more in formality, flexibility, or not like if you make it right, so there's all these little things that we do to help create the space for the conversations. And so ultimately, it comes from like a hunger in me from pain of not connecting that I transformed. And then from collaborating with my other part, you know, partners and teammates at the skin deep in over having 1000s of hours of conversations and seeing the questions. It's clever,

Jen Li: 24:48

even leaving punctuation up spelling errors and punctuation grammar errors. Wow.

Unknown: 24:56

Spelling spelling, grammatical, grammatical,

Topaz: 24:58

right, more like Do you go with the official language in laymen terms? Do you use slang or not? You know, how do you? Do you sometimes not write it in the most efficient way you write it in a longer way. So you create the space. So for instance, very, very simple example would be like, what do I think about love? Okay, well, then you're going to tell me what I think about love. But then, if I put what do you think I think about love? Or granted? It's a lot longer question. Kind of tongue twister, what do you think I think about love that gives you permission to kind of be wrong. And I need permission for me to accept Oh, she might be wrong. But if it's like, what do I think about love, like, well, you better and I'm already on like, post defense mechanism, right? Because whatever she says must be true. So we're looking for the truth when I was looking for the opinion. So what do you think I think about love that creates more space. So some things like that.

Jen Li: 26:05

Yeah. Wow, the human experience is so subtle.

Topaz: 26:12

Yeah, and how do you think it's shifting now in the Zoom Room? Like when yours? You know, I'm doing a talk next week? It's like, how do we communicate now that we are humans with superpowers? communicating, you're in Toronto, I'm in California, you know, we're able to like, work with people and feel connected, who are all across the world, or even in the Zoom Room. Now. Something that we were never able to do before was we were never able to be with 30 people, 40 people, 100 people Hmm, and I'll be the same exact distance from every single one of them. Because in the Zoom Room, everyone is pretty much framed in the same way, there's a same distance for me to all 40 people, because everyone's like, on a medium shot. If I hold 40 people in a physical room, I have two, three people close, and then the rest would be farther. And so the one across the room was very small. Now we have superpowers, right? Everyone, 40 people, 100 people are all the same size, I can pick up their micro nuances in the same capacity for all of them. Versus in a physical room, we could

Jen Li: 27:21

write, and we judge each other by how many plants we have, and keep alive.

Topaz: 27:29

Great to that you can kind of see them in their life.

Jen Li: 27:34

I see. Yeah, I see it. That's great. Um, you know, when I, when I really listened to these people that should come on your show I, I see my own struggle with vulnerability, wanting to appear like the stronger one in the relationship. I think I mean, that's, that's, that's in almost any type of relationship, family, co working, you name it. So, you know, like, I'm curious, because, you know, for me, I'm developing myself today on how to be more vulnerable, and how to have more courage to be myself and giving myself that room. Like, we're like you said, Yeah, I have to give myself that room. But how do you approach it like yourself? Like, what do you think it is that enhances courage, and vulnerability for people to you know, say their opinions and say without fearing what the consequences,

Topaz: 28:37

practice, practice, every time it comes up, practice, like, do it. But don't see it as a final result, see this practice. So every opportunity you have is like practice, it's not the end result, you think is the end result like I have to be this full version of vulnerability, full version of courage. Well, that's a huge gap. don't see it as that see it as practice, here's, I'm going to practice. Therefore, I can be graceful with myself and accepting, I don't have to be perfect. You practice for a year or two, whatever it is 30 opportunities, guess what, you're going to get better and better and better and better, better. And that's what it is. It's constant. It's just this whole life. Again, we're trying to get to the end result, the end result is your death. And then it's all memory. So it's a flash, it's like, in the pen is gone anyway. So all it is is practice. Everything here is practice. Of what what am I creating in the now of which I will only leave behind? Yeah, because I'm going to be gone. But that's interesting question. I would ask you, your partner who has more power in the relationship between you and him.

Jen Li: 29:56

If you were to ask him

Topaz: 29:58

if I were well I asked you, because that's the question we asked. And the answer you often is like, between a pair. Yeah, who has more power in the relationship? And you say, you're always trying to be more powerful. That's what you meant.

Jen Li: 30:13

Yeah. Funny enough, we we go through similar life struggles, and I relate to you so much when you talk about parents that never really opened up and shared what conflicts they had, and, and instilled so many questions that I had, for myself and in myself. So, um, power? That's an interesting question. I think we, I think we share power, we don't let each other get away with things. We, we are highly accountable people and we hold each other to a standard. So I think we share the power, but I can be a little brat, you know, like I can, you know, I like to be annoying. And I like Ryan is yours, just to get is just to see if he can lose his composure. So maybe in a way I can have more power, but generally we share the power in terms of like, decision decision making.

Topaz: 31:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Jen Li: 31:28

That's a really interesting question. Huh? So yeah, it's really, it's really cool. Because when you get people comfortable in this space between, you know, three, four cameras in their faces, like, Is there something that you say to the people or direct? Or does the director say anything? About being authentic with them? How do you prepare these people to open up the way they do?

Topaz: 32:00

Yeah, great question. Um, first, you know, I'm not always in the room, which is great. At this point, for probably the last two years, we've trained our team members, or our producer churches to do it. And we know that it's, you know, this is not me, it's, it's what we do collectively at the skin deep. And we have an incredible team that are full of, you know, their hearts are incredible. And they're really committed to what we do. And they were so motivated by where we're really such an incredible group effort that it would you know, it's not possible, just me alone. So, so so what's great is like, what enables a person to hold that space, you're asking how to train it, it's really about priming and modeling. And just being right is, is not everybody can direct the and space because it's not things you say it's how you be. Right? And there are little, we're very aware of like one of the small things we do that create the space for people to feel safe. And then one of them is one thing I learned from making a documentary films I made is that the quality of the ink when I did normal, you do more no more traditional interviews. I realized that the interview, he would basically mirror the interviewer. So if the interviewer is asking questions, the interviewee and wants them to be more relaxed, and you say, Oh, can you relax more? They're not going to relax more, they're going to get tense. But if you just start relaxing in your being, they will too They will mirror you, huh? They will model Yes. So that's what our direction reason we create the space by being, which we have, for lack of a better word, his traits, but it's just a way of being and holding the space and exemplifying that that energy, if you will, that state of mind that space, and then the questions take off. Because frankly, if I put you with your partner, and there was like, was the last time I disappointed you, and how do you feel about it now, pretty quickly, you're going to lose, forget about the cameras, everything because you're having a real conversation. So we set up the space, we create a space and then we have a space over to the participants. And they can do whatever they want. And so frankly, all our success and you know, it's a mutual success. It's coated our participants who bring their corrosion vulnerabilities. That's why we that's why you are that's why I'm here talking to you. Because you saw them doing that in our space. We held a space but they did the work. And so it's about being I think that's a quote from Oprah. I won't quote it exactly verbatim but you know, she's like, Before you do in the world, you have to be in the world. Like Be it before in order to truly do it. You have to be it. Yeah.

Jen Li: 35:09

Yeah, that's a lot of love and being so I, I resonate with that I really see how much you are, are contributing to this world and to this platform just by offering that space for people. And I really want to thank you so much for doing such a fabulous job and sharing yourself here today.

Topaz: 35:40

Oh My pleasure. We appreciate that acknowledgement. It means a lot to us.

Jen Li: 35:44

Go get the card game the and card game and the end. And also download the an app. You can get your own questions and read them to your partner or your family or your friends. It is take anywhere easy to take and as soon just a stupendous game like it literally is my favorite game. I bring it everywhere to all my friends, parties. And they all ask where do we get one of these so I'm so glad to share this with everybody. Thank you so much Topaz