Avoiding Healing Is Costing Us Our Self-Awareness - Amire Woolfolk

How do you partner with someone and heal yourself at the same time?

I get vulnerable with how I view my partner watching pornography and I share how I used it to dive deeper into healing myself.

Negotiating boundaries? Easier said than done in practice. Amire Woolfolk and I challenge the way we look at ourselves and our boundaries that are sometimes up for negotiation. This open dialogue will make you look at boundaries and coping mechanisms differently.

Follow Amire to listen to thought-provoking conversations on how we can regain parts of ourselves by questioning our own beliefs. You will not be disappointed.

4:08 What are the signs that healing needs to take place
7:36 How do you handle interruptions
10:14 Being offended by pornography
13:17 Learning what fulfillment is not
15:56 How presumptions block communication
18:40 Co-creating a partnership in healing
19:45 Boundaries with your inner child
22:54 Healing myself vs anyone else
25:41 Impact of pornography on relationships
28:59 How to deal with someone's coping mechanisms
31:20 Removing boundaries
35:30 Why you must own your trauma
37:04 Healing feels like dying
41:59 What happens when we disassociate from love
43:05 Coping mechanisms are distractions

Connect with Amire Woolfolk:
Website: www.comfortfreeconversations.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/comfort_free
TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@comfort_free
Facebook: www.facebook.com/ComfortFree
Youtube: www.youtube.com/channel/UCNii0FdB-rY58JSTl52I2Wg/

Transcript

Jen Li: 0:01

The heart of humans podcast explores the secrets to building flourishing relationships. We demystify the elements of desire, trust and love by interviewing conscious lovers and providing reflections to help you create the relationships of your dreams. I got to be face to face at least virtually with a mirror Woolfolk, a bright mind that I met off of the stereo app, I could have easily mistaken him as someone much older. He really humbled me with his experience at only 23 years old. He's the host of the podcast, comfort free. It is currently one of my favorite podcast talking about controversial topics. He is Christian. And while we don't share the same faith, we share similar values. Just when I thought this world is starting to feel like we can offend just about anybody. He's challenging people's critical thinking skills and personal development with his platform in hopes to provoke self awareness and discovery. We talk about my struggle with pornography in a relationship, why healing feels like dying, and much more. This is one of my favorite episodes. And I hope you enjoy it. Amir, it's so amazing to have you here. Last time that we've talked, it was on stereo. For those who don't know, it is an app that connects people from all around the world using an audio podcast people, guests can contribute. And co hosts Can I add people to join in on the conversation, I got to meet this extraordinary individual named Amir, and he is, gosh, he's a man of humility. Like when I when I talked to him, I got the sense of my own power. And I think that that's who you are to me when you walk around and you share that power with others so that everyone is able to detect that for with that from within themselves. And it really brings me so much pleasure to see you, Amir, like this is my first time seeing you face to face. Yeah.

Amire: 2:11

I felt I felt the mutual thing. I think that was the one of the ways that I knew we connected very deeply was that shared humility, like, I remember, you shared something, and it just really blew me away, like, first like, we tend to, like focus on the good things that we do. But to stop and acknowledge, even though you're probably actively trying to do something good, right, you're still openly admitting your flaws in the midst of that. And it wasn't like something that was very minute that you could just blow off. It was something very deep and intimate that the world could judge you on. And you boldly courageously shared that. And I was just very, very like moved by that. And I want to join you on that place. I was like, well, this is an opportunity to jump in her in this journey of vulnerability, humility. So yeah, we we hit it off. Great. You're one of my favorite people to talk to. absolutely one of my favorite people to talk to. Yeah, thank you so much. It's returned. I mean, this is the reason why we're here today. I had a conversation, but brief conversation to see what it is that we wanted to share. And when we talk about things, while we're vulnerable. It's not like we've moved past it. And we've entered a new identity, I certainly was still going through it, I was still going through the throes of not feeling complete, in my own identity as a stepmother, and certainly other forms of identity that I'm taking on. today. For me, I'm curious to know more about because healing has been an important part of your journey. Is that right? And you're absolutely 100%.

Jen Li: 4:01

Yeah. And what if you can share with others? For others? What are the signs when healing needs to take place? Because we can go about through our lives. But when do we know that there's something there, and there's a sign that healing needs to take place?

Amire: 4:25

Yeah, that's an interesting question. It's kind of funny because one of the symptoms of being damaged is sometimes I think, a lack of recognition of self. You don't have a lot of understanding of who you are or how you're moving. So it's like, well, how do I detect when something's broken when part of what it means to be broken means that I'm not detecting much, right. So I think it's imperative to notice the tension that you're having with your environment, the tension that you're having in your relationships, how is your relationship with You're setting like, how are you responding to mild agid things that are agitating you? How are you in typical conversations? And how were people reacting to you? I think that's like the very, very first step, right? Like the they say what is in the process that the first step is admitting that you have a problem. But if you're a broken person, and you're being introduced to healing for the first time or healing in a different place that you didn't even know you needed it like, well, how would you even begin to recognize it? And I definitely think that is where it is. That is such

Jen Li: 5:32

a deep question, how do you even recognize it when you're broken in your yourself? And you can't tell error from water? When you're a fish in water? You know, like, exactly your normal is the way that you've been surrounded in in your environment? Absolutely. I want it, I want to, I want you to continue, because it's easy to say that, like, maybe something triggers you more than what you would want. But like, how does someone really identify what being broken is?

Amire: 6:07

Right? Because normal is normal isn't normal, right? And I think we kind of we make it seem that normal is normal, when it's not right, your normal what you're used to, is not always okay. And as high as I am very sympathetic to a person who's not aware of that, because some people aren't aware of that at all. They're not aware that everything that they experience isn't normal, and every way that they cope isn't normal, either. And it's like, how would you be aware of this? Well, I it's really hard for someone without exposure, exposure, or someone prodding this ideas right in you or around you, or causing that tension, you know, we have a lot of very surface level relationships with people who, who don't invest enough in us and or love us enough to cause that tension when it's necessary sometimes, for us to recognize for ourselves. And so like, part of me is, like, I've stumbled a little bit, I'm stumbling with how I think about this, because we want to, we want to equip ourselves to do everything that we can, but I can't put the responsibility entirely on that individual or person. To me, it almost feels like they need some type of prompting that something is wrong, and that might not come from themselves. And might not, might not, might not write, I'm not saying that it won't.

Jen Li: 7:32

It's like it's a key distinction. Because maybe what you're saying is, someone else would have to prompt that journey to take place, like a new path to take place. Is that correct?

Amire: 7:47

Yes, kinda. So it's not like that. Like, you can't hold them responsible for having the information either. But when I can say is that there's genuine presence, they're genuinely present in your life, and they genuinely love you, that should start something, they might not have the information, but the connectivity, the fact that this person exists outside of your illusion should cause ripples in your pond. Right. And so like your pond is, it's not this clear motif or mosaic that you've created anymore. Someone has disrupted that. And that should challenge you to reflect I had an idea way, way long ago. And if we're going to go return to what we can do as individuals, this ties in very well as well. offense, offense isn't a bad thing. offense is a mechanism that we can learn from right. And so when we are offended, it's very easy to blame our outside circumstances on our offense. But it starts with that question. So I guess that would be the way that I would answer that. How are you taking up eruptions, disruptions, offenses, observe them and start to question them? I would I believe that that would be the very fundamental starting ground.

Jen Li: 9:07

Yeah, I could really crack open a whole lifetime of something that's very deep. The other way that I think people can really identify when people like myself, realize that healing does need to take place.

Unknown: 9:25

And this has happened

Jen Li: 9:27

multiple times, is when I reach a destination, a place that I've been working on. very similarly to some people that job that you want the relationship that you hard coveting the dream salary that you were looking for, the dream body that you're looking for, and then you get it and for me That's when I realized that it never fulfilled me. And it's as cliche as that sounds. It's it's one of the things that I discovered in my own offense to my partner's not my partner, actually my own relationship with pornography, and it's from for me. I idolized these bodies. And it was not okay. It didn't feel okay for my partner to look at these bodies in a way that Yeah, in any way, actually. And I felt it, I felt like it was offensive to me. But what, what could be celebrated sorry, for just the diversity of beauty in general. And it doesn't have to be pornography, it's, I mean, that's a whole other conversation but being I was not able to celebrate the beauty of femininity and, and the the variety that it shows up in I just felt completely insecure and, and ashamed. And a deep, deep wound came up, where it felt like I needed to control this situation. And that's when it really takes, you know, maybe a destination where you've arrived somewhere where you think then

Unknown: 11:51

something would make you happy.

Jen Li: 11:53

And you look for reasons, for example, for me, other other women's bodies to make it seem like

Unknown: 12:05

it's,

Jen Li: 12:06

it's to make it seems like it's something that needs to be fixed. But in fact, for for me, there's like a deep wound that I haven't been able to celebrate other people's bodies, and there's so much healing that's going that I'm, that's that's going to happen from this because it Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of all over the place right now. But I just wanted to share that because I'm not here to control my partner. And it's even and I'd never even asked him to quit porn. For me, I have such a judgment around my own body. And thus, I'm judging him for looking at other women's bodies. And so for me, it's like, Where's the healing? That I can? Where's the healing for me to be comfortable with other women's bodies?

Amire: 13:08

Right. And is, first off this is a lot of great things in there. Like even starting with what you were initially saying about. Like these things that you thought that you wanted, or like goals that you wanted to achieve. And there's a fence even there, even if it's a minute, one where you this is what fulfillment looks like, I've arrived to this place and there's not fulfillment here. That's an offence and it's a disruption that's that's entered, like it put a ripple in the pond. And then so it's like, well, then like, why, why am I not getting fulfilment from this? Right? Like, you know, there's questions that that can pop up. If we teach ourselves to recognize them all over the place. They're such as well, what was I? What was I really trying to satisfy or fulfill in this thing? Right. Like, I think that there's a relationship and agreement that you guys can establish, right? Where I think there's this sense of should or should not. And when we see expectations such as should or should not, we feel that that we shouldn't have to be vocal about it, because we, they we as we kind of have this presumption that they have the same standing on it as we do. And communicating from a place of our needs. Like, okay, this is causing a deep wound for me, and I'm not going to project what I think you should you should do, because you may come from a different worldview than me, but it is a conversation that if I'm going to stand up for myself, right, like, I need to, I need to have, because it's like, this is important for me, this is me taking care of my inner child and the ways that you're kind of violating maybe unintentionally and I don't think

Jen Li: 14:46

Yeah, I need to clarify first because it wasn't I have to clarify when you say projection, what really what I was projecting was my relationship with pornography. I've had Since I was 16, a relationship with pornography, and I was in deep shame for it, I would cover it as a woman, I also felt like it was a disgrace for me to gross to look at pornography. And my relationship with pornography was very, to me unhealthy. Okay. And it's it was a lot of it went to very extreme pornography where it felt like I needed to objectify people, in order to get pleasure. I wasn't looking for connection, I wasn't looking for passion. And that's what I projected on to him. unfairly. Right.

Amire: 15:46

And so that that makes sense. I was I was having conversations about this. I think this happens. And maybe this is a little bit of a tangent, but it's very important. Like there's a whole set of assumptions that we are presumptions and rules that we agree to. And we don't always question why they're there, like I was, it was really trivial conversation, like I was saying, like, where is it appropriate to? Let's say, you like to find a partner, let's say you're only going to meet this person once in your life, and you're genuinely interested? Where did the idea come from that it is allowed in certain spaces, right? Like the workplaces is inappropriate, whereas a coffee shop or or a bar is not like, why do we do those things. And so in the same thing with like, the presets that we have here that nothing came about by chance, but it came out from some intention, whether it's from my own personal experience individually, or as a massive cultural collective. Right? The presumptions that we have about these things come from somewhere. And sometimes we expect other people to join us in that instead of making it a conversation about what do I need? And even if, let's say it's not wrong, right? Or if it's not dark, or any of these things, right? This, it doesn't matter, because this is my need. And we can have a compromise in a conversation centered around that.

Jen Li: 17:11

Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I was able to express very clearly. And by the way, one of the things I get really self conscious of Amir is that I am a slow talker, I'm a deep thinker. But I'm also a slow talker, because I'm processing information at the same time. So I'm going to continue at my usual pace, because I've been reminded reminded to do so otherwise, I start trying to wrap up and simplify my thoughts without really getting deep into it. What really helped me was sharing my views and not feeling judged for it. And still allowing freedom for my relationship so that there is still room for co creation, there's still room for creativity, there's still room for us to have a collaborative relationship. And healing to me is like, it's it's something that I'm very cognizant is that that's my own journey. And no one else can fix that. No amount of flowers, no amount of money, no amount of recognition. could could ever fix that.

Unknown: 18:37

But I,

Jen Li: 18:38

I really wonder, that brings me to the next question. Like, what does it look like to heal inside of a romantic or familial relationship?

Unknown: 18:52

When

Jen Li: 18:56

people are aware, people are made aware of what you're going through?

Amire: 19:04

What does it look like for us to change and to heal in in the situation we've already met? We've already known each other. And now that we've known each other, like healing is bringing about change, and how do we cope with that change? Or how do we allow our partner to enter into our healing?

Jen Li: 19:22

Yes, how do we allow our partner or family member to be let into our healing?

Amire: 19:30

Yeah, great question. I think, for me in my personal experience, and I'm going once again, this is not anything that I've mastered, but I'm something that I'm actively going through that I have a lot of issues with is very difficult. is a very hard process. But like one of the things is redefining boundaries. And And sadly, if they are not agreeing to redefine those boundaries with you, then a question has to come up whether they need to be outside of that boundary. Like they're not included, because it's not anyone's fault. But these are my These are my needs, these are what I need to be functional and communicate with you in a healthy way. So sometimes changing those boundaries, which are weird, because when you meet someone kind of organically, there's a there's a dynamic that kind of forms. And that's going to change. If you really invite healing into the situation and all of this intentionality, it's going to change. I think the goal for healing in general is to find, quote, healthy coping mechanisms for yourself, or partnered with someone else, that that he that meet your inner needs, and that protect the the child, the inner child that was born out of traumatic experiences, right, in every instance, like with narcissism, clinically speaking, like they say that this person got emotionally stunted at a particular place in their life, right, like, let's say seven years old, they're still at the emotional maturity of this particular age, I think this happens to all of us, there's a theory about this going out that I can't think of the name of it, where you, you have dissociation, so you have identities that are fragmented at the ages of five 712, whatever the case may be. And those things, those are formed from traumas. So they take these snapshots of you in a broken place, right, and we, and those are real, and they're not necessarily going to vanish, but we can have a healthier relationship, we can, as we're old enough, be the parent for those things in places where they weren't protected and parented. And I think that's really what the core of like healing is getting out. getting at is finding healthier ways to fulfill the hearts longings. And it's also protecting that inner child. So this this dual relationship, and in my opinion, Hmm, what do you do you resonate with that at all? Do you? Or do you have any places where you would like refine that?

Jen Li: 22:05

Yeah, I absolutely agree with you on fulfilling our inner child that was sometimes never fulfilled. And I, I resonate with you on that. I also think that with boundaries, there are certain parts of our identity that can expand, I'm open to that idea to even if those boundaries are not something that's agreeable at this moment, right. Like, I'm open to it. I'm open to discovering what that is. I was going to make another point. But I lost it. This is why I should write things down. Yeah, and I think healing is also it's also up to us to identify what is ours? And what is what is someone else's? That's good. Because one could immediately judge me versus my partner. Oh, why do you have to do so besides just pornography? Or Oh, why'd Why do you have to do that? Your your his, your her partner? Why would you treat her that way? It's very easy to make those assumptions. But I think part of this journey is to identify what is ours, what do we feel really offended using the words offended, agitated, triggered by that's, that's ours. There is this martyr aspect that I think people will will take on to almost like, re recalibrate, or like revolutionize what a relationship should look like. in a new way, for example, I know deeply inside that sex is sacred. But I also recognize that I'm not at that level to really elucidate why that is. So I'm still in that journey to discover that I only have a small piece of what I think is a massive puzzle, not not a puzzle, but a picture of, of why I think porn is debilitating, because for me, it's very true and that aspect, but I also have to trust my partner because this is also part of the journey if I'm already miss trusting my partner That when he says it's not unhealthy for him that that's also something that I have to take account for. And that's that's not mine. That's not my I know, I spent, you know, we have a we have a son step sign together, there's so many levels of trust that we've deepened to get to this point. Do you? How are you? When you when you? Yeah, how are you? How are you? What are your thoughts on that? I

Amire: 25:34

want to I wanted to say something I want to be honest about something just before we go further in this conversation. I didn't, I was trying to hesitate on saying this because I didn't. But we're, we're, we're, this is organic. So I'm just gonna say I actually don't agree with port. I like belief wise. And so I was trying to find a way like, how do I hold this conversation? Without blatantly putting what I believe out there, like in a way where we can still have right entertain like, Well, now that she mentioned this thing, what can I pull from this, that we can talk about something seriously, but in this respect, I believe I believe sex is sacred in the same way that you do. And that it's not meant to be reduced down to self gratification, because it it, it separates it puts a veil and a wall between you and the other person. Yeah. Because it's not about you all, it's about you and what you want. And so like, even though the woman's body and the man's body is a pleasurable thing it is it is glorious, and is variety, and all of that that is very, that is very true. But you're taking this variety pack, and turning it into a consumer item. And that's not it to me honoring the sacredness and the intimacy that's present between these two things. And so like what I truly felt from my heart was like to encourage you like I love the I love the that you're still willing to work with him in that way, even though you disagree, but to also fight that that is a need in you that is being violated. And that's how I genuinely felt like, even though like this is something I'm partnering with, it's not something that I should settle for. Even though I'm partnering with this person, this thing is not something that I feel that I can settle for. And that's that's how I that's how I genuinely felt.

Jen Li: 27:20

Hmm. I appreciate that. Yeah. The old, the old argument with many people is in moderation. Right. And, to me, I don't drink. I don't there's things that I don't partake in. And there are certainly things that I do in moderation, too, that would be considered not clean, for example, smoke weed. But there are things that I absolutely abstained from the moment I was legal, I abstain from it. Alcohol, I abstain from drugs, other drugs, and casual sex on periods of time. So it's interesting, because I think everyone's journey is where it's done. Part of the healing process, in my opinion, is understanding where people are at, can they be instigated? Can they be provided? You know, this is the question, can they be provided some type of support? And what can that look like when we can encompass and accept their journey of where they are? At this moment? Hmm,

Amire: 28:42

I love that. That is really good. And that's very good for I think the persons involved in healing, I think that's a great way to answer the question that you even asked, like, how do we do this, it's like, there are going to be things where you clash, right. And that's very important, this other person still has needs to like your situation that you mentioned, is perfect, where, like, this is something that he doesn't feel as problematic for him. But it's something that causes a problem in you, right? And you're not saying that it is his fault, but it is something that is in you. And so in this place, like Well, how do I partner with where this person is at, right together? And that's also something that's very difficult. That could be a coping mechanism for him for him in some way. And whether or not we agree if it's healthy or not, it is his coping mechanism. And he feels like it's unfair for him to have to give that up. But in the same, right, you feel that like, well, this is violating and I don't have a way to cope with this.

Jen Li: 29:40

There's consequences to that there's consequences to removing a person's coping mechanisms flat, you know, flat out so there's, there's definitely some there's definitely some thoughts around that some one thought that came to mind was coming from a place of curiosity.

Unknown: 30:03

deepening that

Jen Li: 30:08

understanding of the defense mechanism, neck mechanism that is they think that they must have. I'm getting them to think a little broader, expanding that with curiosity.

Amire: 30:34

That's good. I like that. I think curiosity often brings humility. If you if you engage with it in the right way, I think that's one of the main things is like, you being curious, cause you to answer questions, of course, or to be to wonder, and it it defeats the assumption that you know, everything that's going on.

Jen Li: 30:52

And it's so hard, it's hard. We are lit littered with judgments. I'm judging him for like my experience. Like you feel me that's, that's how it feels right now. And that's not fair.

Amire: 31:08

And I agree. I agree with that. And then that's, that's another thing like, when someone violates something deep in us, like, it's a conversation, like, the I said, I presented there originally, like, a big thing to run into is redefining boundaries. But redefining boundaries, one looks like where about boundaries need to be placed? Right. But where was there a boundary place that we need to remove? Or that we will not agree that should be in place? Like Like, like I get this may be something that you struggle with? But is this something? Is this going to be a trespass on me? to? To give up? Right? Is this something that I right, like, justly should give up for the sake of this relationship? Or is this something very deep that I'm going to lose out on in this process? And then that often invites the question of if this other person has more work to do in themselves, right is revisiting that question is like, well, which problems like you said in the beginning are mine? And what is yours? That added to me, right? Because let's say that there was some, like, I triggered you in a particular way. And it made you very upset and hostile, and I stopped doing the thing that triggered you, but you still find yourself being upset and hostile? Where was it really the thing that I was doing? Was there a deeper lying issue that you can't just resolve by trying to control your outside circumstances?

Unknown: 32:32

Mm hmm.

Jen Li: 32:35

Yes, yeah. Take note of your patterns. Because I think that's a that's a keen, keen way of determining if it was actually that one thing that is making you upset, but really, and deeply, there is a very familiar pain, that that sometimes often feel you feel like you need to control. Yeah.

Amire: 33:06

Yeah. And that's perfect, because I think that's that response to the child demanding to be protected. Right? The inner child is demanding to be protected. And the way that it only the only way that it knows is to control to start to pause. And I think that's often why we go into imaginary things are going into our imagination, because it's something that we can control. There's an enemy, this really traumatic experiences, what happened to this boy, and in this TV show that I was watching, and so he, there was a he like fish. They were in fish tanks. And so he was going through this really dark tunnel and like someone was being killed behind him. And so for him, he started imagining fish floating through this tunnel that he's walking through. And that was his way to cope with his reality, because it was something that he can control.

Jen Li: 33:59

Yeah, regarding the child protecting ourselves, I have a three year old toddler. Do you know what he does when he doesn't get what he wants? I'm curious to find out. tantrums city life is all about him. There's a complete controlling manipulative exertion of mee, mee mee and we all sympathize with it because we all have that. It just comes out in a more eloquent way. And you know, like it can be manipulative, too. I'm just saying we, we do have that that toddler syndrome within us the end capability to want to protect the pain that we ought to feel what our right to feel and and then this Pain is much deeper than your pain. And I think that that's something that we can also keep in mind is that it's not a competition, it's not the oppressive Olympics. I never want to make it. Like, my pain is more important that your pain right now when every single person on this planet is healing, every single one of us,

Amire: 35:23

you could not have said that better. Like that is an ongoing conversation that I'm having, like I'm trying, there are people in my life right now that I know are dealing with deep wounds. But they come from a wealthy middle class background with two parent households so that they don't feel that compared to our experiences that they're entitled to the level of grievances that they have. And I'm like, like the fit. Let's say that, like I was in very dire drastic circumstances, those are those and may not impact me as a person, the same way that your experiences will impact you, I could be in a very dark situation. And it's not going to traumatize me, it's a potential that it does not traumatize me, obviously, there's a potential that it will, and that happens to many people, but there's also still this chance that it doesn't. And whether your experiences was bright and sunny, there's still an open opportunity in the same way for you to be traumatized. So why do we like I'd really hate the comparison game like like, well, well pay attention to my needs right now more. And I think it's from a fear, right that if we give them there won't be enough for us? Or, or if we give this communicating that, that we don't need the same thing that we're giving like we like because we're able to give it then we must not need it. So then I think the inverse thing is to snatch it, right? Like if I'm the biggest elephant in the room, then you have to pay attention to me, you have to give me my needs. I your your needs are not a threat to my needs, if I'm the largest elephant in the room.

Jen Li: 36:59

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I want to speak to your point that you brought up earlier in a conversation, because healing feels a certain way to people. And you mentioned that healing feels like you're dying. Yeah. Can you help people understand what that means?

Amire: 37:23

Absolutely. Um, well, first off, almost in a literal sense, it is a death. Because First off, I think, you know, and this is a pop culture term. Now that kind of I hate that it's been emphasized the way that it has without, like, take it. Sometimes when we repeat words too much, we take the deep meaning out of it. But ego death, for example, right? Like, ego depth, I think, is this Performance Base idea of being able to earn the things that you need, like the love that you need, right that dies, because you because then it allows you to address the actual problems. But the reason that I said that there's a ton of way that it's an actual death. But the reason that I said that, and the primary reason that I feel that way. There's a trend with salt with in the 21st century Generation Z, around mental health. And it's, it's always affirmative, it's always positive affirmations, I was just talking with the counselor about this, not my counselor, but a person that I know, that counsels about this the other day, and the way that we think about healing and the way that social media is projecting healing, they only want to focus on the positive affirmation piece, the places where we need to be affirmed. But they don't want to acknowledge a lot of the ways that we cause our own death. We cause our own pain. Like, that's not to reduce this idea that because it was something that I participated in, that it's not trauma, that's not what I'm saying, right. You can be the cause and a main participant in your own pain in your own loneliness in your own hurt, right. And that's the first thing that I think is hard. But the real kicker, that I think that people really need help with is to see where they're their own villain, which is really what I'm getting at one. And they need to they need to get out of their own way, which is hard for us to admit. But the thing that really feels like dying is when you have to give up unhealthy coping mechanisms, and there is nothing to substitute. There is nothing to substitute. And so when you have this method of protecting yourself this entire life, and now all of a sudden, you risk being exposed to all of these heartaches and these pains and these open vulnerabilities, you don't feel safe. And in that same way it feels like it feels like a death. If you don't have the ability to protect yourself, you're in the same way when you step into the place of healing, because you haven't adeptly learned the healthy ways to protect yourself. And you feel justified in a lot of those things, even if they're self destructive and in mitting that they're self destructive and taking the justification out of what is hurting you is, is terrifying, it's painful it brings, it does bring stress, and it's not pretty, it's good. It could be a lot of tears involved in that. It can be a lot of, you know, existential crises that along with that, that really make you look at you differently. I think one of the biggest things we need to do is see the inner monster in us that has been clawing at our, at our child, our children, the ways that we participate in that. And that hurts and it's hard to admit and then that thing needs to die. To make room for the person in us that can actually nurture that can heal, that can develop.

Jen Li: 40:43

Yes, yes. Yes, it takes up so much space, when you There is so much dissonance in in what you know, is intrinsically valuable, but you you are still trying to justify reasons of of your of why you feel a certain way offended. For example, if I were to stick with, oh, I'm offended with you watching pornography when I haven't really taken it inside? What do I have to heal within myself? What do I have to heal within myself to to release this disgusting judgment that I have with myself? When you go through that process, and you have an honest conversation with yourself, Is it is it one that requires like deep introspection?

Amire: 41:49

Absolutely. I thought there was an order to that. Absolutely. It requires deep introspection, like most definitely, you. One of the primary coping mechanisms of the human condition is self deception. Because love is something that we are taught needs to be earned. You need to put on a show, you need to be the most righteous, you need to be the richest, you need to be the most likable, you need to be like you need to have some particular trait about you that is redeeming so that you can be the person on the corner of the street dancing with their hat on the ground, asking for coins of love, put coins of love in my hat. And so we we, in order to feel that we will get the things that we need, we convince ourselves that we are good, and that the world is intrinsically our enemy, not us. We're not the evil thing in the world. And to remove that, that, that identity or that way that we identify with ourselves, to really start to look at ourselves as if we are a stranger. Like, like, I how prideful to think that we fully know everything about us. Just because we we've spent the most time but that doesn't mean we spent the most present time with ourselves. Learning who we are how we function intentionally looking at how we respond, like when you look at the habits that you have as if you were looking at a stranger, I promise you'll look at yourself differently and questions will arise. So I definitely absolutely 100% thing it takes deep introspection. Yeah.

Jen Li: 43:33

Because deep introspection isn't it's the opposite of distraction. And if our coping mechanisms are about distracting ourselves, whether they're bad habits or or destructive habits, we like Who are we without them? Right?

Amire: 43:55

Yes, that's good. I love that. And I love how you connected our coping mechanisms with distraction. I love that that is a beautiful connection one because because because coping distractions aren't always a bad thing, but they can be.

Unknown: 44:09

That's beautiful.

Jen Li: 44:12

I've been so so enlightened by this conversation here, right? here's here's my message right now is I encourage people to go deep into the places where there is discomfort because there's a lot of space where you feel like there isn't any. There's a lot of space.

Amire: 44:43

That is so good. I love that. I think that's a great note to transition out with. There is space, a lot of space in the places where you think there is not. That is so good

Jen Li: 44:57

for anyone who wants to hear more of them Near as thought provoking conversations, you can find him on Instagram at comfort underscore free and comfort free conversations.com