Transforming Relationships: Embracing Roles, Integrity, and Growth in Marriage

What if understanding your partner better within the roles of marriage could completely transform your relationship? Join us as we share a compelling story of a client navigating the intricate journey from being an individual to embracing the role of a spouse. We also feature insights from a Jewish rabbi, who argues that men and women achieve deeper understanding and support within the defined roles of marriage. This conversation addresses how selfishness and lack of boundaries threaten relationships and touches on the controversial impact of infidelity-promoting apps like Ashley Madison.

In our discussion, we challenge common misconceptions about relationships, integrity, and societal expectations around marriage and family. We dive into the hacking incident involving Ashley Madison to highlight the dangers of deceit and question why prioritizing family over career often faces backlash. The episode delves into the importance of honesty, commitment, and proper guidance for young people to understand their identities and roles. Through personal stories and experiences, we stress the necessity of self-reflection and personal growth in fostering healthy relationships, urging listeners to cultivate clean motives and avoid pettiness for a more authentic, fulfilling life.

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Send questions and comments to Taylor@TaylorHartman.com Or Cathy@TaylorHartman.com with “Podcast” in the subject line.

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:13

Hello listeners. This is Dr Taylor Hartman. I'm back with Kat Larson, my good colleague. Hi, Kat.

Speaker 1: 0:20

Hello, better colleague. I'm good You're better, so we'll just call it.

Speaker 2: 0:24

You too. I'm actually very excited about today's podcast because we're going to talk about relationships. And uh, I had a very interesting experience recently with a client of mine. She's terrific, red, single and wants to get into a relationship with a guy. Who's struggling with that and I'm partially struggling because she's so sharp and he's not sure he wants to commit to raising his game. But he said why don't we just go back to being friends? And she said nope, sorry, pass that one. We can either be a date to marry or we're done. Wow, and she goes I want to send you this podcast. We'll tell you why I feel this way. So she sent me a podcast from this Jewish rabbi.

Speaker 2: 1:06

That was just fascinating and in essence I can't even remember his name. In essence, what he said was men and women were never supposed to really understand each other, that we did a social experiment where we put kids together with each other genders so they would get to know each other and understand each other and communicate better. It's been a colossal failure. It's not worked well at all. But he said what people don't understand is when a man becomes a husband and a woman becomes a wife. Then, in the roles they play, they can be very understanding of each other and valuable to each other. And I was like I was just thinking about the dynamic of what he was talking about when I see so many young people that are struggling to connect and move forward in life in a relationship because they keep working at it as a man and a woman instead of.

Speaker 2: 2:01

What would the role be if I were to choose to be your husband and a wife? So here's the example he used that I love the man is flirting with other women at the swimming pool, so they go to a counselor. The woman says to the counselor he's flirting with other women at the swimming pool, and I don't appreciate that. And he said well, the counselor says he's acting like a man. That's what men do. They flirt because they want to have an impression or be important or whatever. He's not being a husband. That's the problem. He's not chosen to be legitimate in the role he chose when he embraced you.

Speaker 2: 2:37

Or when girls get away for a weekend, they don't have a wife's night out, it's a girl's night out. So they go back to being women, not wives. And I'm telling you, kat, I was listening to this going this is really good stuff, like it really is intriguing to me. I started thinking about that in terms of myself and other people that I know that if you actually step into the role of a husband or a wife, it makes sense about the sexes and the differences of the genders. It you start to appreciate how they bring different gifts to make this work. And if you don't have that, if you don't need that we're not husband and wife then it may not work as well as you think it does. Like it may be easy to stay in the friend column, right, but you don't really grow.

Speaker 2: 3:28

You don't really come together in a supportive role for each other, and in my experience as a therapist, I have repeatedly seen that when couples do embrace their roles, like in a healthy way, they're happier every single time. Married people are always happier than single people when the marriage is right every time slammed up never a question in my mind. They're less selfish, they're more motivated, they are inspired to grow and change and learn different than what they were alone. Now, when they don't embrace their roles or they resent the other person's role or they undermine by being disloyal or going back to their gender bias as opposed to their role bias, then they aren't necessarily happier. They're limited and they feel lost or stuck. So I'm throwing that out there for our listeners. I've not heard this before, so I'd be intrigued with your reaction to that. I loved it. I think it's a very powerful statement of can you find a reason to make the relationship better as a couple than you were single? What do you think?

Speaker 1: 4:38

Yes, yes, and I think it's really convenient to step in and out of those roles to serve yourself when it comes to selfishness, right, right. Well, let's talk about that.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Selfishness is the number one reason relationships fail, right, whether it's business, or it's marriage or children or parents, whatever it might be. So if you don't manage your selfishness correctly, it actually works to a disadvantage of yourself and others. Right, but if you could actually manage it well, it actually works positively. For example, if a wife is with a husband who is not hearing her and she learns to speak to that selfishly I need to be heard that actually enhances the relationship because her motive is clean.

Speaker 1: 5:23

Right.

Speaker 2: 5:24

She chooses not to do that and stay unheard, I think she's actually being less selfish, but less effective for the relationship. So we all have to play a role in a healthy way, right Setting boundaries, for example. Like, for example, no, I don't agree with cheating in a marriage. No, that doesn't work for me. So that's a boundary that people set right. We all set different boundaries all the time. Like you're not going to speak to me that way. That is another boundary people can set.

Speaker 1: 5:55

This is interesting. I don't know if anybody's watched it, but there's a thing on Netflix. It's a documentary on Netflix, and it's about this app called Ashley Madison. Did you ever hear about Ashley Madison? I had heard of that, yeah. So what it is it's? It's an app for married people to cheat. They don't want to get divorced.

Speaker 1: 6:15

And this whole thing is about how the CEO says you know, you're feeling this way. He didn't think he they were, he was doing anything wrong, right and and and. So it was like you're feeling this way. He didn't think he was doing anything wrong, right, and and. So it was like you're feeling like this your marriage. You know, you've been married 25 years boring, boring, boring. You don't want a divorce, you love her, but you need some excitement, right? So I'm just providing a place to do that instead of right. I mean, it's what you're talking about, it's it's all wrapped up in that, which is like when the marriage piece, the role that you step into, you know, traditionally, you know I'm sitting there watching and looking at each other, going what Well? And tell yourself it's OK, you just made the comment. So the CEO says, yeah, yeah, so these people are relationships and I love my spouse but I also need some excitement.

Speaker 2: 7:09

Uh, no, excuse me, you don't love your spouse. Like, stop with that nonsense. You're actually believing something that's a lie, and now you're going to use that lie to justify why you deserve excitement. And it's unbelievable to me, cat in mental health, how often people take a truth and they water it down to where it justifies their behavior. And it does not work, it never will work, it never has worked. But we always find different kinds of ways to justify being illegitimate. And then, when it doesn't work, we're like well, that was unfortunate. Well, unfortunate, not just unfortunate. You destroyed a very healthy relationship, a very healthy possibility in your life, right, because you didn't want to abide by truth.

Speaker 1: 7:54

Well, you should watch. It really is fascinating, you guys, taylor, you should watch it because what happened is they got hacked and people and the they didn't want any money. These people that hacked them didn't want any money. They just said shut down your site or we're going to make all of your clients public interesting. So what they do, they did it. They made it down. No, no, no. They the ashley madison called their bluff these. They thought they were bluffing, they thought it it was good. They weren't. They let go. I mean, and it was like everybody from A to Z you could think of, and their pictures and their what they were asking for and what they were doing and their connections.

Speaker 2: 8:37

Well, you know what saddens me? I think it's sad when people look to the wrong source for writing the shit for getting things right.

Speaker 1: 8:47

That was my question to you, as you're talking about relationships and roles and when things feel bad and it could be a misalignment of role identification, right, like my role as a wife, and to be able to agree with it with your husband, right, right. So I'm sorry, go ahead. I interrupted you.

Speaker 2: 9:07

No, there's a young man that recently spoke at a Catholic school graduation. He's 28, has two children practicing Catholic and plays football for the Chiefs and he's the kicker. And in the, in the commencement speech he recommended that people get married and start a family. And uh, and there was blowback, like people were so upset that he was suggesting that that's what people should do. And I sat there and first of all I thought what's wrong with somebody sharing their beliefs that that would make you happier in life to have a family in your life as opposed to a career, like.

Speaker 2: 9:51

What's wrong with saying that? And you may not agree with it, it doesn't mean that the person shouldn't be able to say it. We've been saying for years women should have a career, so what's wrong with us then also saying women should want to have a family? Now, you have to pick, at the end of the day, what you want. It has to be you that says that. But it's interesting to me how we cannot allow for people to share their perspective on what would make people happy, and then we have to decide. We have to say would that make me happier or wouldn't that, and why would that be? We have to say would that make me happier or wouldn't that, and why would that be? And I think what's sad about that is, you know, actually our society is tilted now to where you don't have many children and so we are not able to sustain. With the lower birth rate, with people that are aging, it's really shifting in terms of society as well. It happened in China, where they put them to one child Right, and it didn't work so badly. They've now gone the other direction. You must have three I think it's three children now, like they've reversed the whole kind of process, and I think it's unfortunate when people start meddling with nature and start guilting people into believing they don't have the common sense to make the right choices, how it should be. And then people are not happy when they play it out and they wonder why? Well, because, like in math, mental health is two plus two and you can think it's five. You can make it six if you want, but it doesn't change the truth it's still four, whether you like it or not, two plus two is four, and so when we talk about relationships nowadays, so many kids are so confused they don't even know what they can be or how they can be or what would make them happy. We don't give them a chance to grow into that. We don't guide them. We don't direct them, and I think it's unfortunate. I think it's very unfortunate because I have seen so much heartache and pain from people who were misguided, made choices that came back to haunt them later in life, because no one ever gave them feedback on how to improve it, enhance it, make it better, do it right, do it healthy.

Speaker 2: 12:02

And when I say right, what I mean is like, for example, if you commit to loving someone, then love them. Don't say you're loving them by having sex with somebody else because you're trying to prevent leaving them. So if I do have sex with somebody else, I can then stay in my marriage and that's because I'm a good guy and I'm loving. No, you're not loving at all, not loving you. You're not loving at all, not loving you. You're not loving them and you're not loving me. Having sex with it's just something you have come to believe in to excuse your behavior.

Speaker 2: 12:32

And I think also in terms of relationships, cat, how often when I'm working with a couple, I'll say so what is your work to do in this relationship? Well, it's not my work. I, I've been the good one. It's their work. They need to do Like okay, but you can't fix them. Obviously you've done a poor job If that were your goal for a lot of years. So what is it you could do? And it's interesting, sometimes they'll say to me I should have gotten out a long time ago. So their way of dealing with it is I should have escaped this rather than work at it, take an ownership for it.

Speaker 2: 13:08

And I'm not saying every marriage is right. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying look at your motive. Is it really legitimate, like why you are in the way you are in a marriage? Or have you perhaps not taking credit and responsibility for things that you do that are healthy and unhealthy in the relationship? Have you gotten stuck into believing somebody else is undeserving of you doing your work because you think they should do their work instead? That kind of behavior does not make you successful. It works against you. So I think it's very important we come back to relationships. So how am I as a husband versus a man, and am I justifying my behavior? Because I'm thinking of myself as a man instead of a husband? And that's what I would like our listeners to think about the roles they've embraced. For example, an employee, this thing, this silent quitting that was around for a while, quiet, quitting, yeah, wake up.

Speaker 2: 14:10

You are not a good employee, right, you are lying, you are cheating, okay. So stop justifying it as an employee. Let's start looking at it as I made a contract to work for this company and as long as I've chosen to do that, I should work for this company. I can't just take a paycheck because I've decided they're unworthy of my work. It's that irrational thinking that drives me insane, crazy, and that's what I want people to start thinking about.

Speaker 1: 14:40

I think, too, that you know how you come to something from I don't even want to say it so like the things that were in your life when you were young and the values and how your parents were and what you saw. I mean there is a lot to look at in that, like what you saw your mom and dad be, what your religion said, if you were brought up with religion, what was wrong, what was right, if there was pain, if your dad never left and never showed up again. I mean there's a lot of work to do before you get to saying a role of a man is. I always think you have to look back and go what was I? What was I fed in terms of relationship?

Speaker 2: 15:18

Great point? Right, that's a great point, if you like. You never saw them have a legitimate argument or disagreement, right? All of a sudden you're like you like you never saw them have a legitimate argument or disagreement, right? All of a sudden you're like, did you have an argument? What's wrong with us? Right, good? Or, like you said, I like that, the pain or trauma, what may have happened to you? Yes, are you over that or are you still playing that out in your life today? There's a man I work with it. He hates women, but he really thinks women are the problem, and it's so clear to him, like he's not even a question, who the problem is. But his trauma from his mother and his first wife are so embedded in him that he can't see women at all for what they are well that negative eyes, yeah, and you know, I mean to go back to what we were talking about this.

Speaker 1: 16:03

I mean there's something going on. This ashley madison company was making you know. I mean to go back to what we were talking about this. I mean there's something going on. This Ashley Madison company was making, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars a year worldwide, Worldwide.

Speaker 2: 16:14

It tells you that there are a lot of people that are thinking falsely and believing that it's legitimate. Yes, but at the end of the day, I can tell our listeners that if you want to believe that you can make untruth into truth, you're wrong. Yes, You're kidding yourself. At some point it'll come back to haunt you. At some point, unfortunately, you will find that it was false. It didn't work out. So the sooner you can take ownership for why am I believing or making an untruth something I can live with as truth, the sooner you can redeem yourself and get better in life instead of following a falsehood, taking yourself someplace you shouldn't go.

Speaker 1: 16:54

Absolutely, and you know I am not the poster child for this cause. I have struggled a lot, but I will tell you, like this work, that, that I've learned from you just what you just said. I'm a yellow, I'm yellow, yellow, I'm about as yellow as you are in terms of my numbers on my profile. Right Go to our website, take the profile, um, if you want to know which numbers are. So I was, prior to my marriage to Paco, yellow in all the bad ways. I don't need to expound. Use your imaginations, people.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Just take your imagination, listeners. Whatever you're imagining is cat.

Speaker 1: 17:36

Right, was cat. And so then you learn this, this and, and I can, and I'm not saying, oh, great me, I'm just telling you it shocked me. I told paco this last night, when we're watching this, this documentary, I said you know, from the day we met, you know I haven't it's been hard and bad. We've had all the stuff I have, you you know, like investing in, in the relationship and what you're talking about, and and going back and digging up stuff and going to retreats and getting beat up by Taylor and all the things we do to grow Right, is it's like? Not once did I ever look outside. And I'm not saying woo, aren't you a great person, I'm just saying that did that didn't come naturally to me. I'm not blue. I help you, aren't you glad?

Speaker 2: 18:19

Aren't you glad you didn't look outside? Oh God, I mean you think about how it would have traumatized even more of the process, right?

Speaker 1: 18:28

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2: 18:29

I do love where you've worked at, what you've done with that and how you've looked back at your family life, how you were raised and that kind of mind you've been very devoted to wanting to improve and grow rather than excuse.

Speaker 1: 18:42

That's it, that excuse word. Yeah, like, go to the place that you get excused. That's been my journey this year. Go to the place that you get excused or offended. Excuse yourself or you get offended. That's my biggest growth right now. I don't know if it's always going to be that way, but that's right now where I get offended. I'm like why am I offended right now? I love that. That's so good.

Speaker 2: 19:02

I hope our listeners heard that, like what Kat's working on, would be really, really good for all of us to consider. If you're the kind that gets offended, ask yourself that why am I offended? Don't say, well, how dare they do that? Go, go a different route. Why am I offended by it? So good insight. I really love that mindset. Yeah, really well done.

Speaker 2: 19:21

Yeah, I hope our listeners understand my goal here is for you to think about how to make life healthy, and you can only do that with clean motives. You cannot make it any other way and I don't want you to stoop in life to the pettiness of people around you that may be illegitimate, don't want to do their work, want to blame you, whatever they want to do. Please don't go that route. It doesn't make you better to become like them, and it's not that it's easy. There's times when you're like are you kidding me? I just want you to think in terms of all right, how do I lift myself to where I can be legitimate? That's what I want you to think about. Work only on that element in life. What do I need to do to be more legitimate in this relationship? Don't stoop, don't give up the essence of who you are. Commit to that process and you'll be much happier in your life.

Speaker 1: 20:12

Yeah, so good. I remember from the old days I would always like write things on my mirror. So this this week is going to go. How do I lift myself? Because I think that's good too. You know, like, like, I like that, I like that, even visual. Like, how do I get above the fray of all of the stuff?

Speaker 2: 20:31

that's going on. Lift yourself out of it. It's so true, kat, we are living in a world that is very chaotic, and if you're not able to kind of get clarity as to what is right for you, what works right, yes, clean, yes you get trapped by it. You get sucked into it and unfortunately, it's kind of like women and their bodies with what society has done in marketing. Yes, like gee my, that is so degrading to make a woman think that's what you have to be or do to be a woman, and yet it's like you say, millions of dollars are spent trying to do that kind of stuff all the time.

Speaker 2: 21:03

So I want our listeners to know you're fighting against a society that works against you, and unless you can get grounded and really clear about who you are and how you are, you're vulnerable to getting sucked into that too. And once you get sucked in, I want you to know it will spit you out and it will not care. Society does not care how damaged they make you. All they care is you connecting on their terms to their message, and so you've got to create in your own head what is the message I want my life to be about? What is it I am most committed to and how do I get there in a positive, healthy way, instead of an unhealthy excuse written. What is the message I want my life to be about? What is it I am most committed to and how do I?

Speaker 1: 21:41

get there in a positive, healthy way instead of an unhealthy excuse-ridden way. What is your message Like when you go? What message have you committed to yourself in your life?

Speaker 2: 21:51

I think the message I'm most committed to is that I matter, and if you matter, then don't destroy that. Don't do things that make you less than valuable. Don't do things that erase your legitimacy. Don't demean yourself in a way that people would not be able to trust or respect.

Speaker 1: 22:10

That's probably been my style's been my whole life. That's like so compassionate to yourself, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 22:16

I am, but I am nice to myself.

Speaker 1: 22:19

But that's a really important thing.

Speaker 2: 22:21

When I see people that are just not nice to and they're wonderful people Like they are. They're probably better than me, and yet they're harder on themselves and they don't really know how much magic they bring just being who they are. I do think I wish more people would be more willing to accept that, because I think the world's job is to make you think less of yourself, not more. And yet there are some parents, siblings, spouses, who do such a great job of reminding you you do matter and you are wonderful and I do believe in you, and those are fortunate people because they have people that are supporting them in life. There are many that don't, and they're the ones that I really believe in you, and those are fortunate people because they have people that are supporting them in life. There are many that don't, and they're the ones that I really feel bad for, because they're fighting against a world that is kind of empowered to remind them you are less than you think you are and you matter less than you think you do, gosh, I love that.

Speaker 1: 23:13

Your answer surprised me. It did. I love it. It always surprises me. You're so intriguing, taylor Hartman. You are a mystery. You never know what we're going to get.

Speaker 2: 23:24

That's right, that's right. It was funny I had a friend say to me so I love your podcast and I listen to it and you guys are so random Like you really are random I said absolutely 100% true, he goes. I have another podcast that I listen to and they're structured and it flows. They can tell if they've really kind of laid it out. I said oh no, that's not ever going to be me and he was great, he goes. I just see the difference and I appreciate both and they're both very different and I think that's a very cool way of looking. In our podcast I think you've been very, very agreeable to go along with the free flowing, freewheeling, whatever the topic comes up in the day. Oh yeah, that's my style, that's where I come from.

Speaker 1: 24:01

Yeah, I love that. I would be scrambling. No, all right, fine.

Speaker 2: 24:08

But we'll be back next month. Yes, we will, and do let us know your feedback. We would love to hear from you. Yes, you can always reach us at taylorhartmancom. You can reach Kathy at taylorhartmancom or taylor at taylorhartmancom and give us feedback or insights. We are always interested in those and suggestions. Yes, like things that are mattering to you in your life, we'd love to hear them.

Speaker 1: 24:29

Yeah, Because we love you. We Talk to you next month, all right, bye-bye. Hey, color Code family, it's Kathy Larson. I want you to take down a number. I want you to put this in your contact list under the people code. The number is 385-526-2350. Again, 385-526-2350. Again, 385-526-2350. Text the word VIP to that number and you'll get back from us a request for your name and your email. That way, we'll be in touch with you on anything that's happening at the People Code, any offerings, exciting things that are coming up, and you can let us know what your needs are by texting us at that number. Look forward to staying connected even more. Thanks so much. Talk to you soon. Bye-bye.