squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 0:38

Welcome to the Working It Out podcast. This is the first episode of our new series where we're adding a little twist to our set of questions. On top of the user exploration into a person's relationship with physical activity, we're also digging into the root causes of inactivity and casting a conversation over to yourselves on LinkedIn to get your thoughts and feelings. Got a big guest first to kick off. It is our very own CEO of Sport England, Tim Hollingsworth. Hello, Tim. Welcome to the Working It Out community.

Track 1: 1:08

Good afternoon, Alex. Hello, everyone. Thank you very much for inviting me to be the first guest of the new series.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 1:13

No problem at all. I thought we'll kick off with a bang. So what we do first with the Working It Out community is we have a locker, a large locker where we invite all of our guests to put one item into it. About their relationship with physical activity. We've had Lauren Steadman, GB athlete, where she, she put in her avocado socks, where she went to the European championships, she forgot to bring a specialized socks that was perfect for training. So she actually won a European championships in a pair of H& M socks. So they're in the locker And then we've got born Barikor's pull up bar because born loves to pull up and things like that. Is there a specific item that you would like to put into our locker?

Track 1: 1:54

Yeah, thanks for putting me in the same category as Lauren and Born for this sort of thing. I mean, people I know well, both, particularly Lauren is one of the truly fantastic Paralympians of the last eight years or so. I thought about this actually, because you gave me a bit of a bit of a heads up that this would be a question. And I've settled very keenly on something from. It's, it's actually an indoor home rowing machine is made by a company called JLL, and it's probably about a 10th of a price of a concept 2, and it was very sort of cheap and cheerful, but three weeks into lockdown in 2020. I was, I had a bit of space in the house to have something like this. I decided that I would get off Amazon a rowing machine with the view that it might add both to my and my son's sort of exercise that we were able to do and allowed to do. And I didn't realize I was partly, I was quite pleased that it arrived while I was addressing the whole organisation. So I literally answered the door to a man delivering me a rowing machine, which I thought was pretty good for supporting them. Secondly, I had to assemble it. So I was quite pleased with myself for that. But most importantly, why I've chosen it, it's become quite a profoundly important bit of kit for me. It saw me through that period every morning. Usually with the today program on as I listen to the latest news of what COVID was doing to the country and our and to society. And I could sit and I could stare out of the window where it was situated and even in short bursts, just, you know, get a bit of my blood flowing, my energy going in the mornings. And so for all of that period and for quite a long time afterwards, it was a daily part of my routine and my life. I've had a bit of work done recently in the house, which has enabled me to get it back out again. I'm not here every morning now, unfortunately, for that respect, because of the way that life is and Sport England is. But still, when I'm here, it's a way to start the day. So actually, it's a pretty profound piece of kit for me. It's a bit of, I know it's not a pair of socks, but it, you know, of all the equipment in recent years. That, sort of spur of the moment almost decision to get myself something that I could use every day is what I would choose.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 4:02

I was trying to predict the item because I just like a game I like to play with myself of what someone would say. And I was doing my digging into your history and I've listened to multiple podcasts. I've heard about how your sporting moment you'd like to achieve as to hit a test century at Lord's, if I've got that correctly And

Track 1: 4:21

Well, I don't know. There's a number, but that would do certainly. Absolutely. Yeah.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 4:25

Scoring a goal Fulham. So I

Track 1: 4:27

Yeah.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 4:27

like it would be a sporty item, yeah, it's got an indoor rowing machine. So is that sport which you do regularly? Is that, was that one that you did as a child?

Track 1: 4:37

I never rode, never rode on water. I actually sort of very much in the context of physical activity and wellbeing rather than sport. It was, I mean in the same way that, you know, if I am in a gym, I might jump on the rower to warm up rather than the bike or treadmill. It's to me to be a good. Exercise for me. No, I mean, all those things that you, you listed, absolutely. But I don't possess the equipment because I was never any good at, you know, the reality was never going to happen. It's not like Lauren and her, you know, I won my European championships in these socks. I mean, this is not the bat. I'm not giving you the bat that I scored my century at Lords with. I'm I would be far more likely to give you my sort of empty pint of beer on my picnic hamper if I was at Lord's, because that's, I tend to spend time watching cricket there and not playing. The reality for me was it felt very practically something that's very real in my relationship with being physically active, which is, it was in lockdown an essential part of how I started every day. Get my thoughts together and also get the blood flowing in a way that meant a lot. And so I've chosen that.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 5:39

That's amazing. So we'll lock that in the locker. Thank you very much. I think what we will do next, we'll jump into a bit about yourself and if you could introduce your role and I've mentioned that you're CEO of Sports England, but your role and what is link is to physical activity for those who maybe are listening from different sectors.

Track 1: 6:00

Yeah, and I completely get that it won't be as apparent to some as to others. Yeah, no, I've been chief executive of Sports England since November 2018. So I'm now into my sixth full year. And my two primary shaping. The things that have shaped that time one obviously the pandemic and everything that that did to spawn physical activity in this country and also the way in which it forced us to think and behave differently. But secondly, also, it's just over 3 years since we published our strategy,''Uniting the Movement''. Which was a transformational approach to Sport England and how we operate and how we work and really reversed the long held assumption that more people playing sport is the answer to a more active nation. Actually, what'Uniting the Movement' is underpinned by is the belief that a more active nation is the answer to more people playing sport, but also there is a good deal more that we can benefit from investing in, supporting and driving. People to be more active in their everyday lives for all the physical and mental benefits that can accrue. But I think increasingly we're realising to in order to connect them better to to their selves and to the communities around them. So I'm basically responsible. Well, actually, no, there's lots of people in sporting the responsible for stuff, including, including you, Alex I'm accountable. I'm accountable for supporting them as the chief executive. It's my job to make sure that we have first the opportunities, the resources, the capacity, the capability, the space, the relationships, the credibility to deliver, and then secondly increasingly in this in this political age to make sure that as a government agency, as an arm's length body responsible for both exchequer and lottery investment, we have best part 300 million pounds a year to invest for those that don't know. So it's a substantial sum, but I can't remember the exact figure, but it equates to something like 18 hours of the NHS budget. So if you are talking about what we're spending on trying to get the nation healthier and more active, you can see the potential value of that. And our link to physical activity therefore is profound. The whole purpose of'Uniting the Movement' is when we move more, we're stronger as a nation, as individuals and as a society. And my job as CEO is to create the conditions for that to happen and then to account for the decisions that we make in delivering it.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 8:24

I wouldn't be saying these types of things to every CEO, but for those who don't know my history and why I'm interested in having you first and going into a bit about your personal relationship with physical activity, because my personal relationship was always linked to an organisation close to my heart called Greenhouse. We won't go into them a lot today, but a coach who influenced me a lot was a coach called Tony. I've spoken about him on a previous series, I found a passion for sport and physical activity because he challenged me to be the CEO of Sport England I didn't know what that meant at the time, I knew, I didn't know what that role did but the part of being accountable is the part which at the time sounded cool. Some people, some people may not, some people may not think the same, but I was like, that's got to be a cool thing, being accountable, but I can imagine the pressure is quite high. So, that's given me, gave me a sense of purpose, knowing that there was an organisation, a role to aim towards, not saying that I'm coming for your job, but it was always

Track 1: 9:27

I hope you are Be a couple of years yet, but I, you know, absolutely, I hope there's lots of people that would aspire to this job. It doesn't, it doesn't come without challenge. It doesn't come without high you know, moments of pressure, for want of a better word. I'm not trying not to use the word stress, but, you know, there's obviously a clear amount of responsibility and accountability. I think it's quite important to make that distinction. If I was responsible for everything in sports England, we would fail. Lots of people have days, you know, day to day responsibility for making sure we're doing the best we can do for those we're seeking to serve. But you weigh that against the accountability and it's a real privilege because you feel actually you've got some levers and some opportunity to affect change. And if that's a motivation and if that's a belief, then that I think is the key. should be the key driver of a chief executive. It's a very distinct and different role because of that accountability, but the privilege in it is your chance to take something forward with a knowledge that you can actually affect it and influence it.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 10:32

yeah. That just, it's motivating for me personally. gives, it's always given me that direction because I didn't know what I wanted to do before that greenhouse coach challenged me to do that. So I was like, right, I was failing GCSEs. I had no idea what I wanted to do. And it gave me that real purpose to, to

Track 1: 10:49

Well, brilliant coach. What a brilliant conversation.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 10:52

why I continue now to advocate for them and always drop them in where I can. But what we're going to do to Today is, dig into your relationship with physical activity. We've done a bit in terms of the item you'll putting in the locker. What I'll be interested to know is when it comes to physical activity, if I say, let's do some activity, what one emotion do you feel when it comes to physical activity? What's the first thing that comes to your mind?

Track 1: 11:20

I don't know if this counts as an emotion. I hope it does. It's I want to choose purpose. And that sounds, it sounds like a sort of fairly formal or should be joy or whatever, you know, but in my personal life and in my professional life, I get purpose from physical activity. I get purpose from it individually because, personally, because I am a man in my mid to, yeah, still mid, more than late fifties. I've been through a journey where I fundamentally have stopped. Participating in organized sport to greater and lesser extents. It's no longer is part of my life in the way that I would like it to be perhaps, but also simply can't. So the importance of remaining physically active has increased and that's both for my health and well being, but also for my connection to you know how it fits into the rest of my day and the responsibilities I've got. So I definitely feel purposeful as an emotion. When I think about physical activity, I want it. I want it to be part of my life, but I also want it to make sense in my life as it sits now. And then it brings purpose too, because that is why I'm getting up in the morning currently, professionally. It is to understand what sport and physical activity, and it's important that we link the two, whilst also recognising that the ultimate goal is a more active nation. the purpose of what I'm seeking to achieve while I'm in this role.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 12:44

so

Track 1: 12:45

It's a really interesting

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 12:46

have a real mix of emotions when it comes in as a very valid emotion. Definitely counts. I People dreading it from to buzzing about taking part of the first thing that comes for me is I quite closely aligned with purpose without physical activity. When, when I stopped playing team sport, my mental health took a real dive and I couldn't figure out what it was until I'm realized it was not necessarily sport itself. It was the team part of that. So I had to find that again, but in terms of purpose, do you feel there's ever been a time where. You've lost that sense of purpose and how did that feel?

Track 1: 13:25

I mean, for a long time, I mean, I joined the, I've been in the sports sector for 20 years. And so for that period, it's had a direct relationship. I've had a direct relationship with sport at high performance level in an administrative capacity, I hasten to add. You know, I had seven years at UK Sport and then I was the Chief Executive of the British Paralympic Association for seven years before joining Sport England. It becomes immensely wrapped up in your life when you're working in that environment, particularly the BPand Paralympics GB being such a phenomenal organisation for social benefit alongside it being a phenomenal organisation for performing and competing at, you know, major international competitions. So prior to that, though, it was a very different relationship. It was more distant in terms of purpose. It was, I played sport a lot when I was young. I was never very good at anything. I'm quite sort of, you know social club competitive at table tennis. I, you know, like to think that, but then you,

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 14:28

I've heard on the colleagues

Track 1: 14:30

day. yeah, yeah. But then when you think that, and then you come up against somebody who actually can play the game at a decent level and you realize you're playing a completely. But you know, beyond one or two things like that, it was always only for recreation. I then went through a stage that lots of parents will do when you have, you know, children, in my case, sons who were going through their sporting journey as young people. So I ran touch lines and help put cones out for football. And I particularly actually, my oldest son did row for a period of time and I learned to and then drove the coaching launch. for his rowing club. So I was contributing in a more volunteer way. And now at this stage it is much more about just the basic purpose of being physically active to help me be as fit as I can be and stay as fit as I can be in what is quite a relentless life. And I make no apology for the fact that one of the other emotions I considered was kind. So I want to be kind to myself about my physical activity, because it's very easy to beat myself up and say, you know, why aren't I doing more or why aren't I prioritizing more? But actually, in the current time, I think I'm more realistic about what I can do and what purpose it can bring me. And I hope that that comes through in my day to day relationship with it.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 15:51

There's a few interesting points there. I think being kind to yourself as terms of a relationship with physical activity. I think if you're within the sector, there light shining on you. And with me and my friends, my friendship circle, I've told them I'm doing the London marathon, it's just assume that of course, that's something Alex is going to do because I'm the one in the sports sector. It doesn't mean I can't.

Track 1: 16:14

The sporty one.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 16:15

sporty one of the friendship group and the family. So it's just assumed that I'll be running marathons, doing ultras and all these kinds of stuff, when really they're just as big a milestones. I've always said in every activity that I do, my mental game is my weakness. And so the thought of a marathon and treading for that long is mentally a challenge, but it's harder for people to understand because they go, well, You can just, you can run that distance. so I'm interested to know as well, what your relationship with activity looks like going through education, because you didn't take the sporty route through education. You went through the route of Dramand English. So what

Track 1: 16:56

Mm-Hmm.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 16:57

did your relationship with physical activity look like? whilst whilst studying, whilst going through your degree?

Track 1: 17:05

At that level, by that point yeah, I did a an English and drama degree which, and in fact I have a master's degree in drama. I'm probably am the only sports administrator possibly in the world that can probably state that that's where there, I didn't follow traditional route. And for 20 years of my career nearly now, I worked outside of sport. In, you know, wider roles in sort of public relations, public affairs and communications. And that was my routine. And so when I was studying, it wasn't as so many of my colleagues have wonderfully done. And I see now, either people who are. who were at an equivalent age competing at a very high level. So, you know, I've got a Chair at the moment who is probably one of the most profoundly important Olympians we've ever had in Chris Boardman. I mean, he, relative to other cyclists, didn't win a whole bucket of medals, but he was the one that proved it was possible. And he was the one that broke the mold, and he was the one that, you know, was a relentless search for perfection in his sport and recognizing that that is a very, you know, what he was doing when he was at that age versus what I was, my relationship, you can't compare. But equally, as you know, Alex, we've got lots of colleagues who were extraordinarily engaged in playing sport and competing various levels at that time. For me, it was recreational even then. Through, so through university it was recreational. I lost the time, my chosen interest in and passion for sort of dramand theatre which led to quite a lot of performance. That's quite time consuming. So, relative to the ability to go off and play, particularly cricket, which is a game I've always loved. I would say that that was possibly when I transitioned from playing a lot of sport. To loving what sport is and watching sport and what role sport can play and starting to think about being more active. So at that time I, you know, I can remember this was a long time ago, but I can remember during my studies, for example we didn't quite have the gym culture then that we've got now, but I would go for a run and just, you know, stay fit whereas I wasn't playing university sports.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 19:15

Yeah.

Track 1: 19:16

I played some recreational sport, I mean, as part of the football team for the whole period of my studies, for example, but it was very five a side. Yeah

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 19:24

necessarily a bad thing as well. Cause I didn't take part in any of university sport. It wasn't for me. I'm always, well, ability wise. And also I used university as an outlet to meet friends and socialize and I prioritized that. I think what is interesting as well. was when we spoke to our RuPaul's Drag Race Vinegar, we spoke about the, how much physical activity their is in dramand in theater and in their case, drag and how much being on stage and acting and performing for an hour requires you to be physically fit.

Track 1: 20:03

Oh,

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 20:04

So.

Track 1: 20:04

phenomenally so. I wouldn't, again, that's at a level which I'm not wouldn't have claimed to be, but I mean, we, for example, as a sidebar to our main studies, we did a tai chi. course because that ability to have strength and balance and physical coordination is an element of performance. Definitely. So there is overlap. I think the biggest overlap for me, though, actually was the, was that sense of connection that you have to others, that sense of engagement in a common purpose that sense of to a degree performance and, you know providing, providing for other people. So there's lots of overlaps in that, in that bit of it that helped me subsequently. But it did, it did at university mean that I started to lose something of the, I still went home and one of the, one of the sports that mattered to me in my youth, which I still like, was I played, my dad played golf. So I would play golf with my dad. And that was something that when I was on my school holidays, I would play golf with my dad, but I wouldn't go to university and be, you know, and I didn't, I didn't play golf at university. So I became itinerant in my actual life. sporting context. I guess what I never lost is the thing that ultimately led to me applying for and being brilliantly fortunate enough to get the job at UK Sport, which was in 2004, a long time ago now was my love of it and my knowledge, therefore, of it in a way that I've followed it consistently. And whether that, you know, that's really important to where I've ended up now because it gave me a connection to. I had a job at that time, which I determined was one that was just, I just wasn't motivated. I didn't have purpose to go back to what we're talking about. I didn't have any purpose other than the salary that I was earning. And I wanted to go and work somewhere where the actual purpose of the organisation was a motivation. And I was very, very lucky that that turned out to be UK Sport.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 21:57

Amazing. And so we're picking on a few things there. One. I could talk about golf all day, so we're going to have to do that outside of

Track 1: 22:04

Yeah, we'll do that very happily. Yeah,

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 22:06

up golf since I've been''retired'' American football, I'm obsessed with it, so we'll talk about that outside of this. The one part which was interesting is that you used to play golf with your dad. And that links to the next section around your earliest memory of being physically active. Is there, there an early memory of being physically active that you can remember?

Track 1: 22:33

Yes, there is. Actually, it's probably not the first thing that we did. My father was quite heavy influence on me. He was a very good cricketer, my father and then subsequently golfer. I'm not good at golf, but he was a very good cricketer. And he had a love of sport generally. But I can remember and I think I would probably have been about seven or eight. We were coming up to the annual cross country race at school, and there was such a thing then. And I can remember where we lived, there was a sort of block that you could run round that would take about two minutes. And It was probably only a few times, but it felt like a lot to me. I can remember going out and doing maybe three or four of those blocks with him standing outside our house with a stopwatch. And just, you know, sending me off, watching me come around the top and run down to him, shout out the time for one lap, send me off again, and actually that sounds dreadful, but it was wonderful because he got me into a place where when the actual race came along, I did you know, there was a dispute whether I can remember who I lost to, but there was a dispute as to whether I came second or third in the race that year. I maintained second, but apparently I was passed just on the, on the line by slowing down. But so my, my earliest memory is that actually is of just being in some way in a position where, yeah, it sounds a bit enforced, but actually it was him imbuing in me. You know, the need to take stuff seriously if you're going to do it enough, but also never putting pressure on I mean, if I turned around and said, No, thanks, I don't want to do this, it wouldn't have been a problem at all. But because I said I wanted to get to that point. He was just there with his stopwatch. And similarly him, you know, throwing, throwing tennis balls at me in the garden to try and get me to play forward defense. I think he's the result why I never learned to score runs particularly but it was quite hard to get out because he just. So I think that my only memory is about my father actually, not school, but actually my father.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 24:38

That's amazing. I So we, talk about cross country and you said early enough, I was also in my cross country team. I was quite lucky to have Richmond Park on my school's doorstep. So we used to,

Track 1: 24:49

Okay, yeah.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 24:50

after school, we used to run around Richmond Park. So that made me interested in running. Cause otherwise I wouldn't have been, it was

Track 1: 24:56

Also a lovely place to run round. I did the Richmond 10k one year and that's, it's lovely.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 25:01

beautiful, beautiful place. So you say it's a link to your dad that you do the laps. It sounds like you even. In a few things you've said today, even though you've never, it doesn't seem like you take yourself too seriously. It seems like a bit of structure and competitiveness is important to you when it, when you think about physical activity as well.

Track 1: 25:25

Not anymore.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 25:25

Not

Track 1: 25:26

No, I'm realistic. Goes back to that being kind. Now it's just about my relationship with physical activity now is very much in the health and wellbeing space. And actually, and we count this, and we absolutely should count this, but probably the most constant physical activity in my life now is dog walking you know, because it's so important to do but also it is a, such a regular feature, and I'm, instead of beating myself up and suggesting that I should be you know, playing five a side football midweek or you know, joining a golf club or actually I haven't got that space in my life right now. I've chosen to live quite a long way from London, which means that I spend quite a lot of time, you know, either on a train or away from home and regularity that's required for the commitment of playing isn't there, but what is, what can be there is regular physical activity. What I am though is innately I hope this sounds as benign as I think it is competitive. So even though I might not be very good. hence the table tennis, you know, I still like to, I like to sort of you know, try and do of my best when I'm in something like that.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 26:35

Be the best version

Track 1: 26:35

of yourself Best advice I've ever heard, you know, the best thing I always say to anyone, and if I do a talk or a lecture or anything, particularly about careers, was Abraham Lincoln, who said, you know, whatever you are, be a good one. You know, I mean, it is the best advice you can give anyone and that sort of tries to extend to my, you know, thinking about anything that, you know, might involve some element of competition, but I've lost all that sense of having it in real terms in my life. I'm still very privileged. I'm surrounded by it. So what I have been able to do over the years is be surrounded by extraordinary committed competition. Learn from that and the people that do it. If you have Lauren, you mentioned Lauren as one, I'm sure you've had others as well. You know the athletes that I've encountered, particularly in the Paralympic context. Jordanne Whiley has been on the podcast. Okay. Excellent.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 27:30

yeah.

Track 1: 27:30

Good stuff. I mean, a very good company. The reality of being in that proximity. I made a very clear statement at the start of my time at the BPA was that I would never wear a tracksuit in anger. Because I was never credible in that environment and it was one of the best decisions I made. You know, I'm was the administrator there to make it possible for others, and I got a huge amount of reward from that. But it probably demonstrates to you, you know, the answer to your question is, you know, the competitive urge is not there any, in terms of sport, but the love of it is. And I'm very much, my relationship to what you want to talk about, which is, you know, physical activity more generally is quite personal.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 28:11

So. Perfectly going on to from physical activity into physical inactivity.

Track 1: 28:18

Yeah,

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 28:19

this is the new hopefully exciting part of the podcast where we are going to be starting this causal map. So for those listening, a causal map, what it tries to do is talk about inactivity, then we people, and we're putting this out to our LinkedIn network, what the causes are. And then when we get that first layer, We then dig into them and keep digging into them until we find really specific reasons for inactivity. And then we discuss as a group how we can potentially resolve them. So that's the, hopefully the aim of this new series is to see what potential change we could make by being an online social media based podcast based community, which hopefully is an exciting thing. So if you were going to start out mapping the causes of inactivity, where does your thought process start?

Track 1: 29:09

Well, there's a tempting answer, which is to say I am privileged to be able to access great reams of information about the causes of physical activity and have seen it firsthand, you know, in my role. I mean, the reality is little of this now for me is personal. I have a huge professional reflection on the causes of inactivity. But actually there is one profound bit of it that can, is personal to everyone. The, you know, the mix that we work to, and I think it's right, is that behavior is obviously driven by, it's, it's what we, you'll know of, Alex, is that the COM-B model, that

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 29:50

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 29:50

behavior is a mix of confidence, of opportunity and motivation. And the biggest single failing we've done historically, I think, as a nation, let alone as a sports sector, is to believe that the primary driver of inactivity is motivation. That people just don't want to do it. I think that's not only wrong, I think it's a failing of understanding. If you're in a community where there is very, very little facility base, or it's not safe to be out on the streets potentially, or you don't have the the income that can enable you the time and the space to think about it, or you have a physical impairment or multiple physical impairments or other conditions that limit your capacity to exercise then the opportunity of being physically active is a massive limiting factor and obviously also in the driver that we've identified and tried to be more holistic about what physical activity means and can count. Historically, we've also defined it through competence as well. So. You know, to be physically active, you need to be able to play forehand or kick a football well, or, you know, badminton or squash or some of these, you know, some of these technical sports, which are brilliant to play, but are not easily accessible to people for whom they're not part of their natural life. So I've thought a lot clearly about and we've got evidence from active live surveys and elsewhere that the historic stubborn inequality in the data is that we have historically. served two thirds of this nation pretty well to be active. 60 odd percent, currently isn't it, around 60, 66 of the nation do 150 minutes a week, which if we're all going to go via the definition for activity, that's what the chief medical officer says is an active life. But then you take it down to inactivity, which is doing less than 30 minutes in a week, 30 minutes in a life that basically any activity that raises your heartbeat and is done to a moderate intensity. Well, then surely we've got to understand why it is that people feel they can't even do that.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 32:01

Mm-Hmm.

Track 1: 32:02

And that's about a quarter of the population currently. So we're failing, we're failing them. I don't think it's their failure to be motivated necessarily. Motivation comes from opportunity and it comes from the sense that it's for, it makes sense to you in the, you know, we meet people where they're at rather than them coming to us. And I think the biggest, so let's talk, when we talk about inactivity, let's talk barriers. Yeah. What are we putting up as a society in the same way that, you know, if you're familiar with across the the variants of the medical and the social models of disability, the medical model of disability was a basis of defining disability about what the impairment that the individual has limits them from doing. The social model reverses that and says what are the barriers that are put in place by society that prevent someone with that impairment from accessing stuff. I'm a huge believer in the social model, therefore, and I think it applies to activity more broadly. Instead of thinking, what are the limitations of the individual? What actually have we, you know, what barriers we put in place societally to make it harder and whether that's social economic circumstance or other forms of inclusion, whether it's facilities and opportunities, whether it's outside space that's safe and welcoming, whether it's community based, you know, interactions, whether it's more importantly, people feeling that it's good for them, understanding why, recognizing that, you know anything counts, recognizing that any, any activity will benefit them if they do it in a way that's sustained and you know timely. All of that is a social barrier that we can remove if we work differently to do so. I put motivation down the list. And I think it's one of the biggest lessons that we can all learn, where those of us that care about a more active, healthier, happier nation is that we've got to work to remove those barriers before we start to point the fingers at inactive people and say, why don't you do more?

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 34:06

I've, I've just got caught out in listening mode there, rather than being an interview mode.'cause I completely agree with a lot of what you've just spoken about. I think barriers is something that I've always been interested in, even my dissertation at university, was around barriers specifically for females and those going through, from university age into adult life, like 19 to 25. That's, that's what this girl can, is of huge interest to me personally.

Track 1: 34:32

Yes, Yes

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 34:33

the part which I'm interested in there is we talked about the COM-B model and you very clearly seem to be focusing on the opportunity part of the COM-B model. And that's something that you seem quite, well, whether you call it personally or professionally passionate about. That's the area which if we were going to narrow down into one, you would potentially focus on. And then, and then from that, we speak about the social model, when we, if we're going to say next steps in our, in our mapping, we've got, you say physical activity in the middle, then opportunity, how, where does your brain then go in terms of how can we then start addressing activity and opportunity? How do we create branches off that? What, where does your thinking go?

Track 1: 35:19

Straight away to an understanding that imposition of opportunity is the wrong approach. It has to be created for people and that's very different. Straight away it goes to therefore the levers that I have. and we have at Sports England at our disposal, but more importantly, why as a strategic imperative in'Uniting the Movement'. I make no apologies for reversing back to'Uniting the Movement' because it's fundamentally a strategy to support this, this agenda wholeheartedly was a realization that unless you work collaboratively and collectively and locally, you're always going to have barriers because you'll not address the structural or systemic barriers that exist. I have a brilliant example I'll try and remember the numbers, but talking to someone about the young people in a secondary school in Bristol. Only yesterday and after school, only 11%, I think it was, I haven't got the numbers in front of me, but only about 11 percent of young people after school were involved in some form of sport or physical activity. And the biggest single reason for that was that where they were and where their school was situated and where they lived. It did not feel safe. And so, you know, you can't invest in creating sports and physical activity opportunities without acknowledging that there is a bigger, more systemic barrier there, in that example. which is actually the communities in which people are living. So, how can you work to engage that community directly so that they create opportunities that do feel safe? And that will be often about trust, and it will be about getting the right people involved, and it will be finding those organisations who those communities can work with, as opposed to believing that you know, in a different phrase, build it and they will come. You know, whether it's a building, a facility, or whether it's a group, you know, just provide it and people will then use it. There are so many other determining factors. That's why opportunity is so key. So I definitely think that that's where we should start, which is the understanding that we need to turn the telescope around. And instead of thinking we're looking down on the problem and coming up with solutions, we ask the problem. You know, we try and get the problem to come to us, if you like, with what we can do differently. And I think that's a very important work, you know, if we talk about Sport England for a moment, we're putting a huge amount of money in the next five years into sustained investment into working locally, place based working. Because it's hard. It requires real collaboration as opposed to sort of superficial collaboration. Very good phrase I heard once that, you know, good collaboration is a contact sport. And I think you've used that in your pod. And you said something which I had in your, in your LinkedIn post, sorry, about your time, two years at Sport England. It can be exhausting because it is relentless because it's competition. It's, it's a collaborative sort of exercise, but it's true. That if you're going to properly work with people in a way where you are changing things, you have to, you know, you have to be properly engaged with them. And I think we've had a superficial relationship with it for too long. So my, yeah, my principle where it's my starting point for this is how do you. In order to address the barriers, how do you first understand them? And I think we're doing a lot more than we ever have before to work to that as, you know, a sector and I think'Uniting the Movement's' belief that that is the only way that we are ever going to tackle and hopefully reduce, if not remove the stubborn inequalities that exist in activity. We have to start there.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 38:55

I think there's really interesting point there because I want to bring back to an interview you did in 2019. You were three months into the role.

Track 1: 39:03

What did I say?

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 39:05

and No, it is good. It's a good thing. There's a lot of links here. You said that. wanted to focus on three P's, one being purpose, and it's quite interesting that that is also your, how you find your personal emotion when it comes to activity. There's a huge link there between how you apply your work and your personal emotions to activity. So there's an amazing link there, which I've, I've just seen. But then the other two areas that you said you wanted to future work to be focused on back in 2019 was around People and Place. So there, there were your three Ps and you can clearly see that what you're saying when you're talking about'Uniting the Movement' strategy, when you're talking about how you would start to address barriers, your message hasn't changed.

Track 1: 39:55

No I haven't said purpose, people and place. for a while. When we started out on the consultation for what became'Uniting the Movement', that was my working title for the strategy.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 40:04

Okay.

Track 1: 40:05

I, But you're absolutely right, the principles behind it. And if there's a fourth P, it's partnership. So it's an acknowledgement that actually you can't do it alone. But it was the very clear realization in the work that we were doing, but also all my, all my understanding from a personal and professional perspective that You know, that everything happens in a place. That's a very easy thing to say, but it's true that it can't happen without the people that can make it a place that people want to be engaged. And there needs to be some, there needs to be a reason for it. So purpose, people and place was a very, for me, simple way of describing how we needed to work differently. Because a lot of. Like I say, we have really served quite well a portion of the population for quite a long time because those things sort of fitted naturally into their lives or, you know, we're able to do so. We were fundamentally in doing that. Not addressing those for whom purpose and people and place were not there and for me, not least as the stewarding of public money, that seemed unfair. So, you know, when it comes to our investment now you can make a direct correlation to the brilliant work that's done in the health service and sector. Many people I'm sure will be familiar with, you know, Michael Marmot, the, you know, the sort of health guru in terms of the philosophy of how you should provide for public health. And he came up with the phrase of, you know, proportionate universalism as a very simple metric for how you choose to invest public money in this case, which is that everyone should be available, have it available to them. We shouldn't exclude anyone from the opportunity in our case to be active and play sport, but let's not pretend it's a level playing field. So the disproportionate focus should be investing in those that need it most. So in the same way that they're in health care, not everyone should have the opportunity to be healthy and access health care. But patently, some people require it much more directly than others in certain communities rather than others. So you are disproportionately focused on them. We've taken that and applied it to sport and physical activity. And it was through the lens of recognizing purpose, people, and place. I feel quite nice hearing it again, actually. It's still very fundamental to our work. We just moved on in terms of some of the language we use. But, purpose is the central theme of'Uniting the Movement'. We all are very fixated on place and place by, you know, working in place. And we know how important people are to that. So, it still exists.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 42:30

so yeah, there's even a few bits there. I think throughout what we're talking about with opportunity, if we're digging into that, everything we've spoken about really has been around. collaboration, collective action, how we're working collaboratively in place, and even yourself saying, adding the extra P of partnerships. In terms of working collaboratively and addressing inequalities, how do you feel we are currently doing what do you feel we're learning from in terms of reducing inactivity through working collaboratively?

Track 1: 43:08

Yeah, I, look, I try not to overemphasize my positivity because we've got huge challenges moving forward, but I have witnessed. In the five years, but particularly in the three years since'Uniting the Movement', a genuine intent for organisations to work better and more effectively together. And whether that's governing bodies of sport, but it's more paid pertinently. You can see within the active partner network that sport has across the country. A real groundswell of intent. I think we've managed to shift people's mindset towards the opportunities and the benefits that come from working collaboratively and recognizing that no single organisation or no single sport or no single part of our sector will ever independently be able to resolve the challenges that we collectively face. Where I think there are real next stage hurdles to overcome is where we are now, which is two-fold How do you translate that sentiment into action? How do you move from having a shared belief that collaboration is a good idea to actually doing it well? And I don't think that that's a bad place to be, but it is absolutely the sort of key metric now for success. I don't, I think people are more willing to talk about a collaborative approach and get into rooms together to talk about how they might work together, but actually coming away with something that's genuinely different is a different thing. And secondly, to that point, the honest appraisal led by you know, particularly I think in our case our sort of ambition and purpose of, you know, reaching those in our community have been less well served. to to recognize that some of that partnership needs to be with new and different organisations to those which historically we've worked with. And, you know, to think about the unusual suspects in our relationships, as opposed to the usual suspects in our relationships and how that can change. That said, it's a movement and I am absolutely committed and one of my personal measures of success for'Uniting the Movement'. And The whole premise of your questioning and getting people more active is everybody on the path? Because, you know, traditional national governing bodies of sport still play a fundamental and key role in activity in this country. And how much better it would be if they've actually got a much better lens, for example, on some of those organisations using their sport for social change. So if you've got Brighton Table Tennis Club down doing this amazing stuff that it is in Brighton in getting people to play, how well connected are they actually to what table Tennis England are thinking? I keep coming back to table tennis. I don't know why, but we are, basketball and the, and the many community clubs or England boxing and the many community clubs that use sport like basketball and boxing to engage young people particularly. And then you link that through the sort of. Local relationships that can be partnered and brokered, not least with the active partner network. And then you think about the local authority and other publicly owned and privately owned leisure sector and the role that a UK active or someone like that can play in helping them to come much more to the table so that if we do do a campaign like This Girl Can, it actually has resonance and meaning beyond You know where it was before because you can see it live and living in those facilities. So that sense of working with everybody in the sector mustn't ever go away. But our point and our challenges right now is we're only going to move the dial if we think about and work with unusual suspects. Completely

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 46:52

agree. I think that's why in my previous role at the YMCA, I was really interested in us working with public health and the whole systems approach and that everything

Track 1: 47:03

Yes,

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 47:04

and the movement talks to the

Track 1: 47:06

whole system.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 47:08

whole,

Track 1: 47:08

And

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 47:08

whole system change, whole systems approach. Exactly. So when I saw Sport England were moving that way and that was my next future role, I was quite excited. It felt like. timing was good for me because I'd stumbled across this systems approach just naturally in my role. And then, and then it came that Sports England doing that.

Track 1: 47:27

We're still learning. Absolutely. But, you know, it is, it is fascinating. And for me personally I mean, you know, I think interesting for me and Sport England and, you know, sitting here and looking at our role and we have a very important role and responsibility in sport, you know, as the community and grassroots investor, but also as the as the sports council that brings with it some authority and some responsibilities that we take very, very seriously, but equally you're some of the my favorite partnerships. I mean, you mentioned YMCA working with YMCA. Working with the National Trust and the Forestry Commission and the Canal and Rivers Trust, you know, thinking about the places and the spaces people are active, as well as, you know, what their, what their activity is. They're fascinating partnerships, very different, but so aligned around common purpose. Or look at, you know, as a last point, the sort of 15 or so. Charities that make up the Richmond group that, you know, collectively account for millions of people as beneficiaries who are living with at least one long term health condition. You know, they're really important partners for us as charities. So people like the Stroke Association and Diabetes UK and Parkinson's and Rethink Mental Illness and British Heart Foundation. And Mind, you know, these are all people who've now we've built a partnership and a relationship with and a collaboration with because they have got members of their communities who are demonstrably finding it harder to be active and feel the benefit of that in their lives. Our partnership can help drive that and actually. Create the change we're trying to see. So a fascinating outcome for me and whole system change is what it brings to the table.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 49:10

So summarizing for today, what I would like to throw out to the LinkedIn network is a is if we're building this we're building this map We've said that the first routes off of that map is going to be for yourself is the COM-B model that's that's one arm and within that we're saying we wanted

Track 1: 49:30

Opportunity.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 49:31

on opportunity I think it'd be really interesting for The community to really dig into that we've spoken about something today around collaboration, place based working, understanding place, developing partnerships. So my challenge to those listening and to the community is to figure out, okay, what, thinking about those areas. it be working in place or collaboration, what are, what do you feel are the causes of inactivity within them, or do you feel passionately about, about addressing inactivity in a different way, which isn't just about opportunity? I think that's what will be really interesting in the next phase in what the, what the listeners and sector feels. Do you have any feeling

Track 1: 50:14

No, I would be really fascinated. I'm really fascinated too. And I don't underestimate the fact that necessarily we've probably gone down, down one path. But you know, the easy common denominator to consider in the data is the overlap of inactivity with social economic circumstance. So it's quite, you know, it's quite obvious from that, that opportunity is always going to play a factor. And the equalizing out of that might seem painful for some, but it's a hugely necessary part of what we're about. I know I came personally from quite privileged. You know, background and didn't encounter any of those barriers to entry that are so apparent in so many of the communities in which we now work. And that's that for me is really important to recognize. And that our job is to enable everyone to have the benefits of a happy and healthy life.

squadcaster-06df_1_03-14-2024_163850: 51:14

I think that's an amazing place to stop. I think that's a nice, nice way to finish this. So thank you very much for today, Tim. Hopefully that was an interesting listen for people and please do head over to Working It Out on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. Thank you very much.

Track 1: 51:31

Thank you, Alex. Really enjoyed it. Thanks for asking me.