Alex: 0:37

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Working it Out podcast. I'm here today with the Women in Football CEO, Yvonne Harrison. Pleasure having you here today, Yvonne.

Yvonne: 0:47

Thank you for having me indeed. Good to be here.

Alex: 0:49

No worries at all. So we're going to jump in with the first question, which we do with all of our guests, and that is a item to induct into our Working it Out locker. We've had some amazing examples previously. The one we've just done with Lil Duggan, she chose her varsity football team photo. So could you let me know which one item you're putting into our locker, please?

Yvonne: 1:09

Yeah, so for me, it would be an Adidas streetball trophy.

Alex: 1:15

Nice.

Yvonne: 1:16

Yeah, I won that a long, long time ago. Friends and I entered obviously streetball competition and we entered for the mixed, but we didn't, we were only women, like girls that and yeah, we ended up winning that mixed competition and that was pretty cool. And I think when I look back at that. It signified a lot because I think now look at the role I'm in, in leading gender equality within the football workforce. And the fact that there weren't mixed teams, if even take that back to my secondary school days we didn't have a girls basketball team. I played on the netball team. I wanted to play basketball. I played a lot with my cousins who were boys and I remember playing in school. On the boys team, begging the PE teacher and eventually said, yeah, and then we were getting absolutely hammered or the lads were and then so he stuck me on and just transform the game and top scorer and getting that recognition and assembly the next day, quite proud and embarrassed but actually, yeah, it just signifies the resilience. I think that I feel I've need to have throughout my career, but also like within my physical activity journey and it not always being straightforward, but still finding a way.

Alex: 2:29

Thank you so much. So street ball. Can you go into more information about what that is? How is that different to your normal football? What was the tournament?

Yvonne: 2:39

So it's actually basketball.

Alex: 2:41

Oh, basketball. Okay. Nice.

Yvonne: 2:44

essentially, it's just a short form off. So it's just in part of the core. It's very much three on three. Smaller form of the game and a bit more urban, a bit cooler. Yeah, so that's what it was. I used to play a lot of basketball and netball back in the day when I was a teenager. And yeah, a few of us decided we'd stick a team in and yeah, we went and won that. So that was cool.

Alex: 3:10

That's me going straight into, okay. So Yvonne's in a woman in football role, that street ball must be football.

Yvonne: 3:16

Yeah, I did play again. We didn't have a girl's team. football wasn't really what girls did. The lads played football at dinner, us girls just chatted around or whatever, like occasionally get involved in stuff. I did once join in and I've got the scar to prove it. I've actually got a scar on my hand here, which I just fell over playing football, just messing about. And yeah, I ended up shattering my knuckle actually, and I had to go and have an operation. So that was my one and only real experience of playing football other than with the kids.

Alex: 3:44

You said something really interesting there as well, in terms of it demonstrated your resilience and that's something that you've needed to have. Throughout your career. Could you go into a bit more information about that? Please? Like, why, where have you had to show resilience?

Yvonne: 3:58

Yeah, I guess at various stages and through various lenses, as a young person wanting to work in the sports industry, it's not the easiest industry to get into. I came into it as a route, as a volunteer actually with Greater Sport while I was at uni and navigating your way and then you're a young female in the industry. I remember I was 24. I think I got my first kind of big job as head of sport at Greater Sport overseeing what was the active partnership active sports programme back in the day. I was quite young and I needed quite a lot of resilience there because I think I felt a judgment from people. Like how's she got that job. She's only that age or, and that can sometimes be people that you work with or, in a network or whatever that kind of look at you. And actually on the back of that ended up doing a master's degree in community sports development. Cause I had a conversation with my boss and he was like if you did an extra qualification, a master's, it signifies, more knowledge, more experience. And I did it it was fine. And, I learned some stuff along the way, but I think, yeah, God. I didn't choose to do it I did it as a demonstration that I was able to do the job that I'd clearly been selected, to do. And then, aside from that, sport is more dominated by men and has been, and so as a younger woman, or even as a woman going into rooms predominantly filled with men, and some of the best people that have supported me in my career have been men and I've been quite fortunate really to be surrounded by good people. But also I've been on the receiving end of being in a meeting that I'm chairing and being asked, can I just take the minutes and can I make the tea? And you go a bit difficult to chair a meeting when you've actually taken the notes as well. No, and I have gone. I'm chairing that's challenging. Can you take the minutes and you should see some of the reactions you get there. So I guess there's that. I suppose if I stick another hat on, I had three children under the age of four. I was deputy, CEO, the resilience to come back to work to get over the imposter syndrome that inevitably you might have, someone's gonna come and do my job better, I'm not gonna be good enough, I'm gonna have forgotten everything. And actually to continue to prioritize both my family and my career, keep pushing on and find a way. So I think resilience has been a thing throughout, throughout really.

Alex: 6:25

Yeah, I think that's really interesting and specifically your point around doing the MSc because it was recommended to show the level that you believed you were already at. I think that's resonated with me because I, I did a degree and it, don't get me wrong, my degree helped me and it got me to where I am now but I felt like I had to do my degree to be able to move into a role. And I'm really glad the sector has moved out of, Oh, you have, you need this status for this certain role. And experience only qualifies you for so much. I wasn't fully experienced at the time, but I can see in your role being a head of support at 24. My interaction was, wow that's incredible. I remember I worked at an, at, Active partnership as well. And I was 22 when I left and I was nowhere near that. So my interaction wasn't, how did you do that? It's more wow, how'd you do that? That's well, how can I learn from you?

Yvonne: 7:21

you know what, great people. An unbelievable CEO in Richard Saunders, a fantastic line manager in Steve DeWin and people that believed in me and pushed me and saw my potential probably more than I saw myself at that time. I was always very career minded from being pretty young in all honesty and, but you still need that. You still need people to see something in you and say, you know what, why don't you just go for that? And what's the worst that's going to happen? If you don't get that role, that's okay. You're still going to learn along the way. And so I just thought yeah, I've never applied for a role like that. I've never interviewed for a role like that. So let's see what's what. And, I had a lot of growing to do in that role, but what it also showed me from a leadership perspective was. You can see the potential. If people have got the right character, the right culture, they've got enough of the skills and the knowledge to be able to do something, you can support them to grow, to become incredible and, do amazing things. yeah, I've always tried to carry that with me in my leadership of trying to find the potential in people and really take ownership of that nurture and develop side of people. Because I think one, Instinctively, I'm very empathetic and that's how I'm built, but two, I saw what a difference that made to me and I think that's my responsibility to, to help others in that way as well.

Alex: 8:38

I think we've said quite a few different words, which will link lovely to our next question. So I'm really interested in how you're answering it. I don't want to send you down any roads because there's been some huge words like resilience, leaders, leadership, empathetic when we're talking around emotions and physical activity. My next question is, which one emotion do you feel best represents your relationship with physical activity? Which one word would you use?

Yvonne: 9:08

Oh, there's so many, it's so hard. Probably relief.

Alex: 9:12

Relief. Love it. Why's that?

Yvonne: 9:15

It's a bit like my saviour actually. I, it's always been my happy space. I don't do it as regularly as I should all of the time. But it's the thing that's really, it's shaped my life. In all honesty, like I've always had a love of sport. I was always good at it at school, but beyond that, never like amazing. Some of the people I have the privilege of working with over the years. But it's like my sanctuary. It's where I feel my happiest. I've got great friends. I've always played team sports. So that camaraderie and that ability to connect with other people and win and lose and go through all of that emotion. And I suppose, when things are tough, when life gets hard, when you're stressed and at any age, really it's been the place where I could just forget about it and just get on a call or a pitch or whatever. Yeah. just it out or get in a boxing session and just batter something, like just hit some pads. And even now, like my PT jokes on me quite a lot because it's my therapy. It's that one hour, that PT session, it's just and I do go to the gym, but I love my PT session. And part of the reason of that one, I've got a great instructor class as a friend as well. But also they set it up for me, This is what we're doing. And I might give them a bit of gip about it. Cause I don't really want to do a kettlebell swing. And I certainly don't want to be doing that ski erg. Cause I hate, it makes me feel sick, but I don't have to think about it. It's do that, do this. Cause in every aspect of my life. I'm thinking about, whether that's my team, whether that's our business strategy, whether that's where my kids need to be, who's picking them up, what they've got on later, what's happening in my wider family. My friends are like, you just always like your head. It just doesn't switch off. so for me, that's just it's like my sanctuary and it just gives me that sense of relief. And I know everything will be fine when I'm done.

Alex: 11:23

That's amazing. When I was doing my, my digging into you, I saw him, you've got quite an active Twitter, which I had a lot of fun digging into. This is what I do with all of my guests. And what I did, what I've got noted down here is loves a PT session. So you glad you brought it up because there's so many tweets. Around PT sessions. I was like, this is fantastic.

Yvonne: 11:44

Always tagging This Girl Can.

Alex: 11:46

This is what I was going to talk about. Me now working at head of campaign activation, Sport England. And I'm looking after some activations under This Girl Can, I seen the hashtag. Back from, I traveled back to 2017. So near right enough when it started. So it seems like you really resonated with that message.

Yvonne: 12:05

Yeah. I, I think because of the career that I've had, I know that not everybody loves sport and physical activity. And I know the journey that we've all been on in the sports industry around, is it sport? Is it physical activity? Is it this, is it that? And actually I just passionately believe it can really help you in any way, whether that's you want to get in shape or whether you want to just be stronger or you want to, just give you head a rest, like it can. So for me, when that campaign came out from Sport England, like it really landed, it was so different. And I've never been somebody that I would class, as I've always loved sport, but I've never been particularly slim or particularly this or particularly that and you know Would you get me in a crop top and leggings? Absolutely, not at no point really and it's very rare that you would find that unless I was in the garden you know that It just represented me, that campaign. I really felt like I could connect with it. And so many other women that I spoke to did too. And the adverts were really powerful. And naturally, it was something so different from Sport England. So different. That's why we still talk about it now. Because it was, and it really did create a movement. And it gave women, that whole, I've got a perfectly executed manicure under these boxing gloves. Yes, you have. And I always felt in the job I was in, it was always about encouraging other people through whatever means to just be active and move a little bit more. And even yesterday I met the Greater Manchester Women's Football Board and Hayley from GM Moving was I had my trainers on and I was going to send her a message. I've got my active souls. I'm walking through Manchester. I could have parked nearby, but I didn't. I, I'm walking a 15 minute routine or whatever, because it's embedded in me. I feel like a responsibility to. Just spread the message. I love the campaign. I thought it's brilliant. And so many people that I know did too.

Alex: 13:52

Yeah. Hayley's been on the podcast as well. And she spoke about the active service. So it's a really nice link there. If you're listening to this one, haven't heard that one. Do give that one a listen, listen as well. I will plug my own stuff. I'm not,

Yvonne: 14:02

Absolutely.

Alex: 14:03

I'm not worried about doing that. In terms of relief I also saw that you, an interesting, quite keen runner.

Yvonne: 14:10

What I found particularly when the kids were young it became something I could do that a gave me the headspace to just escape the house and Be I could do it at any time anywhere no requirements for anything. I could plod along, I could go 20 minutes, I could go an hour. And it became quite interesting in terms of, it got, my husband started running as well. And then, you do like a 5k. Ooh, that's interesting. I wonder if we could do a 10k. You do it one year, you think, Oh, I'm going to try and do that next year. And I want to get in under an hour or something like that. Then I want to get in under 50 minutes. And then it's like, his granddad passed away. And so we were like, Oh we could do the Manchester 10 K and we could raise money for Beachwood cancer care center. Cause although he didn't have cancer he liked painting and he would often spend time there. He just was like one of the community and helped people that were there. So we were like, we'll raise money for them. And then we were like we can't just raise money for doing the 10 K. So what if we, why don't we do three 10 Ks? And why don't we do a half marathon? Should we try that? again but we did it and we raised a good bit of money and it just felt like a really nice thing to do. So I felt I always say to people with running you can get better really quickly because you just have to be consistent with it, which I'm not because I always wrestle with, oh, I need to go to the gym or I'm going to play netball or, oh, I'm running. I never do. It's always a bit of a mixture, which for me I'm all, I'm a terrible God only knows what my time would be on a 10k now. And actually I find that quite hard because I think, well did it in sub 50 and now you'd probably be in over an hour and I can't reconcile that in my head that's not good for me. So I then think what I probably should do is enter a 10k and then that would drive me to be more consistent and get there. But I haven't because then I'm committed to it, I do running. I go back to it in the sense that it's just something that you can do very freely and you don't need any special fancy equipment really. You just need a pair of trainers and off, off you go. So for a period of time, particularly when the kids were young, it was something I did a lot of and I enjoyed, but again, I would never have classed myself as a runner.

Alex: 16:16

Yeah, I am, I have mixed emotions about running. I always, I've spoken about this previously, but I've always had to, running was a, something which I always did for training for something else. So I was like, Oh, you're playing football? I'll do some running. Okay. Just to keep up my fitness. So it was that kind of thing. All running for a bus or a train. Like I see more as a mode of transport rather than a sport myself. That's how I think it should be categorized because just because it frustrates me the most. I know. Yeah. I'm scared to go back to a park run exactly like you were saying. Cause the last time I was recording is when I was trying to Break my a goal I had to know. And I just nowhere near that now.

Yvonne: 16:58

I went for a run last week and it was half an hour, just me and the dog, and off we went. And it was actually quite nice, other than the bits where you think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna die. but it was just a gentle plod and I'm like if you can do that's fine. But if I started doing it more often, then I would be, I'm fiercely competitive with myself, like no one else is driving me but me and I just. I've always been like that and yeah it's a real head wrecker when you know that you're not. And you know what else is quite interesting, like when we did that series of three 10ks and then the half marathon, we finished the marathon, half marathon, the instant next question people ask is, are you going to do the marathon, are you going to do the marathon? Absolutely not. Why would I need to do that? That's double the distance. I've just basically only just survived getting over that line. It just made me think, Oh yeah, why? is there always somebody pushing something, some is it not just good enough to celebrate that you've finished that and you've raised some money and that's enough?

Alex: 17:56

Yeah. And my friends were like, when you're doing, when I did the marathon, people were like, when are you doing your next one? I was like, never. That's a one and done thing. And I was like, there's no ambition for me. They'll be like, Oh, you'll be doing Ironman. And I was like no.

Yvonne: 18:08

yeah, blows your mind. It's like when you do a master's degree and then they go you've got enough material here, are you going to do a PhD? That would be an no. I'm not.

Alex: 18:15

Yeah. I do flirt with the idea of doing a master's, but it's not for me. It's just not for me. I really struggled to do the academic side of university myself. So if I just like the idea of the Masters more than the actual doing the work itself.

Yvonne: 18:32

Yeah, I think there's definitely an element of that. It's interesting for me because throughout my sort of career, I did my undergraduate in Leisure Management at Salford Uni. I then did this Masters in Community Sports Development at Bolton Uni. then, As a gauntlet for punishment when I was probably maybe six months into being CEO of Greater Sports and my first CEO role, I enrolled on a master's in sports directorship with Manchester Met Uni. And that was quite interesting because the motivation there was very different. And this is random sport network thing, but I was, Having a conversation with Diane Modahl in our office, her foundation had some space in our office and she was on this advisory board and they were looking for more females to do this course because it, they'd had one on the first cohort. And they had a bursary and I was like, Oh, what is it? Tell me about it. And I'll see who I know. And when I read about the course, I thought this is really interesting. And at the time I'd only worked like I'd come into great sport as a volunteer doing work experience. And I was then the CEO, like that's the only place I'd Had a job, if that makes sense The Thompson holidays, customer service, whatever, and a spell at a sports shop, obviously, everyone needs to know how to space them hangers. And so I thought there was a lot of people that were doing the course that were from the professional sports world. And I thought, I wonder if, what's my next move going to be? And I wonder if so. I enrolled on that and did a Masters in Sports Directorship. I had three young kids at the time. My husband was losing his mind with me like, what were you thinking? Again, where there's a will, there's a way. So I did complete that course and I actually did probably the best academic work I've ever done. But going back into it was so hard. Like even just the pedantics around referencing, I was like, why does anybody care about that? But I was glad I did it because actually the motivation was new network and six months into a really senior role and quite a high profile role for me at the time, it really created the space for me to think about myself as a leader, how I was leading the team, strong governance, innovation. And when you're deep in a job, often don't give yourself that time. Like you've got to be really disciplined to

Alex: 20:54

yeah.

Yvonne: 20:55

do that today because you know what, there's a story that breaks in the press or something happens and then you just, your day's not your own. Was really hard. But I was glad I did it. And the team knew about it because I'd come back in after I'd had me two days at uni and they'd be like, Oh God, what's she thinking? that's a great idea now. And actually that course, there was a lot of former professional athletes who again had not necessarily gone down any academic route before, not done any undergraduate degrees. And I think universities now, if I think of UA92, which is a class of 92's uni in Trafford, they, very different style of learning very much about life skills as well. Assessment base, very different. You don't have to do all the exams, unless there's a couple of courses where you do because it's like accountancy or whatever. But others it's like you present your assessments really different. So I think there's some really interesting innovation in higher education related to sport and otherwise. But maybe is worth exploring if you go down that route. And there's my plug for UA92.

Alex: 22:00

Yeah. I am having worked in HE for seven years, worked at Portsmouth University and King's College London. There was some really great entrepreneurship, innovate, innovator type, incubator type courses that you can do that kind of interests me more. How can If I've got a concept like this, is it the start of a bigger idea I have and that kind of link into HE is what I'm potentially interested in. And there's even with the course I did in sports development and coaching sciences, it's really helped my role in some aspects, but I'd probably say. 80 percent of the course, either I'm not using or it wasn't relevant. And I normally look, try to look at the units and go what can I pull from this? What nuggets can I take from this in the middle of a time commitment? Yeah, the ones that are around like entrepreneurship and incubators, they're the ones that really interest me. But yeah, the so we've spoken a lot already around your The kind of the different roles and we've touched points with different organisations you've worked for. So this next part is around your beliefs for the root cause of inactivity. But before we do that, I'd like to ask the guests to give a bit more information about who you currently work for, your organization, what role it has and what link it has to inactivity.

Yvonne: 23:17

So I'm the CEO of Women in Football. We're a leading organization driving gender equality within the football workforce, working right across the game, men's and women's football. We do that in three main ways. One is around celebrating the successes of women working in the game and really profiling and spotlighting that, which is important from a role modeling point of view, but also from a normalizing point of view, and football's been largely male dominated. And again, it's about shifting sort of perceptions of that and the power that has in broader society, really. And the second aspect of that is really about challenging discrimination and calling that out and supporting women who unfortunately do experience gender discrimination in the workplace with our legal partner, Mishcon de Reya. So we offer pro bono support for women who are in that situation. And then the third real strand of that is around education and training. So we offer a whole suite of opportunities for both women in the workplace. individually to support their career progression development, um, as leaders within the football industry. And then we also work with a whole range of corporate partners, be that clubs, leagues, professional services, organisations that sort of wrap around the football industry with our corporate membership. So they can become partners of ours. And ultimately then they have a whole suite of services that they're able to offer to all of their teams including. Men and non binary people. So it's a membership organization. It's free to join. So if you're passionate about gender equality within the football industry, then, check us out. It doesn't take long to sign up. And. Yeah, I guess the relationship to physical activity is an interesting one because for our organisation we're about the football workforce and making sure that is in place and that there are equal opportunities. I suppose how that translates back is, if we don't have women in roles in the football industry, how likely are we to be attracting women and girls to play the game? And watch the game. And so it's the cyclical thing and you look at, some of the high profile female coaches and the referees and officials. It's important that those people exist because they inspire other people to go down that route. And then a grassroots game. We know that the girls girls football and women's football returning to football that perhaps weren't able to play. It's important to have female coaches. So hopefully by showing that women work right across the workforce, you're inspiring other people to think, Oh, maybe I could get involved. And actually this thing that I did because my son or my daughter played football and I thought I'll help out on the sidelines. could actually turn into a career for me. Even if that's not, in the professional game it could be, but if it isn't, then there's still opportunities with sports development organisations, coaching organisations, as you'll know, to be able to move into this space. So I guess that's the relationship that we probably have around that physical activity. And I suppose because of my background being more broadly associated with grassroots sport and my history of kind of that ecosystem in the past. I'm always really conscious of we want people to play it, watch it, work in it. And even though our remit is not the play bit or the watch bit necessarily, we can connect into that and make sure we advocate for that. So often in my role, particularly around major championships, we're often approached by the media about, women's Teams, be that England or otherwise, and thoughts and, celebrating the successes and the progress, particularly after the women's Euros. I mean, it was insane here in, in England when that was taking place. And I'm very happy to showcase and celebrate that, but equally I'll bring it back to the reality of, Yes, that's inspiring more girls to play, but we need more and better facilities. We need safe facilities for women to be able to play. We need to make sure there's accessible transport routes. We need to make sure that young girls have opportunities to play and be seen and be talented in all sorts of places and not just the leafy suburbs. So I think as a platform for advocacy and change, even though we don't directly work with people, playing the game as such. That's not what our aim is. We have an opportunity to really showcase what's progressing and maybe where the challenges are too.

Alex: 27:47

Really glad that you brought that up because the idea of this is I don't want to sit in a bit of an echo chamber with grassroots and sports participation people and talking about the same ways that we're going to map out an activity. And I'm looking for a range of perspectives as well. The thing I saw first of your role is, yes you're working in the women's game and it mainly is the professional sector, but like you said, there is that ripple effect and of how you're inspiring the next generation to, to be physically active. So if you were going to map out the causes of inactivity, your role obviously influences your decision and you're coming from this from a different angle. But is there a certain route you would take in terms of addressing the issue in this country?

Yvonne: 28:32

The causes are complex, aren't they? From access to facilities, access to financial resource, parental support, cultural norms, health inequalities, inequalities more broadly in society. There are so many things that would prevent people from being active, I think. And I guess if you were trying to change that, I think the biggest thing for me, which is possibly why the, This Girl Can campaign resonated is really about normalizing physical activity in all its forms with all people. We're very conscious at Women in Football that when we are hosting panels, when we're organizing events, when we're showcasing imagery, we try to ensure as much visible diversity as we can. Because I think people need to see that. And from a physical activity point of view, we've also seen the impacts of physical activity in spaces that people live in, breathe in, work in, wanna be in, and not necessarily the shiny new facilities. I remember, many conversation around while there's a cycling national center, the Velodrome in Manchester, how do you get Manchester residents to use it? it's not theirs, so it's not for them. Is the perception from some of those residents. So for me, it's about making sure that you can be physically active in any sort of way. And type of person any shape or size or color or creed and any gender. And that's, that, that is really important. And I think the role that, particularly professional sport plays is really important in showcasing that. If we look specifically within football, the EFL Trust and the Premier League Charitable Foundation, they support all of the club community organisations right across the country. And there's so much work that's going on right in the heart of communities. And I think sometimes, I've seen over the formal sport versus the informal and I think There's no right or wrong. It's just about having a route for everyone. So if you want to go through that pathway and you want to be seen as a talented person and potentially, represent GB at the Olympics or Paralympics, that's amazing. There's a route for you, but equally. If you want to just be playing in the park, you should have access to that MUGA or that court in that park and not feel like you can't because you're a group of girls or not feel like you can't because you're from a certain community. Yeah, I think that accessibility and that visibility everywhere for me is the thing that probably more than anything will drive participation or not and try not trying to force people to do what we think is our version of physical activity in our spaces and actually do it where you choose in a way that you want.

Alex: 31:19

Really like that point. And I recently spoke to Dan from UK Wallball the CEO of UK Wallball and his points were very much around similar sorts of things saying, and the main point was the more we've tried to professionalize the sector for the benefit of the sector, it's only taking a certain amount of people with us. Some people don't want a formal setting. And like you said, he used the MUGA example as well to say, even that, why have we caged off an area for people to play and they can only be there. What about the rest of the green spaces, which they probably feel more comfortable being in, how can we make those spaces more accessible? When he spoke around Wallball, he said that is just such a simple concept of, you just need a wall and a bull and that's all they're promoting. And that's why they find it really hard to gain investment because they're saying, We don't want to track numbers. We want it to feel natural and something they can rock up and do. It's really interesting that you come up with the same. It seems the main kind of your main point, you've mentioned health a bit there, but it is around access. Is it, and your point around physical, like the role that Professional sports can play. You mentioned EFL Trust there. What role does what role could you see an organization like Women in Football or similar roles to yourselves doing to help tackle inactivity? I know you've said around the role model, so it'll be interesting to go into that point or if there's anything else that you're currently doing.

Yvonne: 32:46

We have close to 10, 000 members. In fact, by the time this goes out, we will have announced our 10, 000th member, so there you go, there's an exclusive today. Just make sure it doesn't go out before 5pm, please.

Alex: 33:01

Honest will be going out in a couple of weeks. Don't worry about it.

Yvonne: 33:04

Okay and all stages of career and all sorts of experience, but I think there's a lot of science and there are papers that sit behind women or people, but particularly women in senior positions and roles of success, many of them have been active in their lives. There's specific stats that, that sort of you can draw up and I can't recall them off the top of my head, but it's there and it's fact. So actually maybe there is something more about people talking about, not only the roles they do, but the things that they've done in their life. And I think it's just advocacy, isn't it? Physical activity is part of who I am. I have PT on a Monday at four o'clock. Technically, I guess that's the working day, but that's when it works for me. My team know it's in my diary. It's not hidden. I have PT at four. And I won't answer my call. I won't answer my phone in that hour. And everybody's aware of that. So role modeling, behaviours as leaders or people in organisations and ensuring that your team are aware that they can also do that. And actually, it's important, particularly when you work remotely, like I say to my team get yourself out for a walk and being on the screen all day, it can be hard work. You might have only moved up and down the stairs three times to make yourself a drink. And then, you're not been out of the house because you're at home. So I think there's something about role modeling behaviours and, Bringing that into conversations around, particularly when you think about wellness and stress management and also building networks and relationships, sport, physical activity can be a really great way to do that. But equally, would I feel dead comfortable going into a football competition? No. Why? Because I'm really competitive and I know I'm going to be rubbish. So I'm not playing. Do you know I'll have you, I'll play you somewhere else. So I also think it's about like, how do you do something that is going to be new to everyone or that there isn't going to be this just mass of people that are going to be really good at something, not just about trying different things. I think,

Alex: 35:05

I know I really like that. And I think there's a few points here, which I think will resonate as well. And so we've had quite a bit on This Girl Can, and I always like plugging that even though I'm so glad you brought that up. And you said around normalizing physical activity and all of its forms for all people. I think You said you do something like diversity in messaging, I guess my question is what else in terms of just messaging going deeper than that is anything that women in football does or organisations like yourself should do to increase the diversity in your workforce or in your membership.

Yvonne: 35:40

yeah, absolutely. For me, there's always conversations around how do we speak to organisations that might be working or connected to people who we might not be? How do we, pull relevant content or insights from people who might speak to a different audience than we're already speaking to. Just a couple of months ago, we launched our first ever membership committee For women in football, we had, I think, about 75, 80 people apply to be part of that committee. We've taken a smallish number of those people forward, everyone has to go through a robust process. They had to tell us about why they wanted to be involved in women in football, what they thought they could do to help and bring to the kind of conversation. And importantly, how they could not just sit there and represent themselves, but how can they reach into our wider community and people that don't yet know us to bring in thoughts and ideas and really check and challenge what we're doing and is it what's needed for the industry. So we work with organisations across the board really in sort of similar advocacy and lobbying spaces and not we take football into corporate organisations and our learnings and support them in their development. And then we have our annual survey where we really get a sense check of what's happening in the industry. And we utilize that to then advocate on behalf of our members around what needs to change and the representation. And so we also know that 60 percent of women working in the game who reported gender discrimination said that no action was taken and 16 percent said that they weren't even listened to. So we know that from a perspective of Women working in the industry, there is a challenge and we know that challenge is sometimes heightened if you are a woman from an underrepresented ethnic origin, or you're a woman from the LGBTQ plus community, or you're a woman with a disability and all of that translates seamlessly into participation as well. In my historic experience I've not seen the latest figures, but we know that is an issue. I suppose where I sit and when I go into some organisations, I do say. Women are not underrepresented in society, we're half of the population, and yet we don't have the pathways into the boardroom, we don't have our voices listened to, we have to prove everything to the nth degree and men don't necessarily have to do that for me, there is always a lens, and for our board and our team, women And then the diversity of those women, because not all women look like me, or sound like me or have the same lived experiences as me. So it's really important we challenge ourselves. And there's more that we can do in that space. the membership committee is one thing. We'll be launching something else towards the end of the year. That's really going to help us in that broader ED& I context. And we're excited about that. We're just working through kind of the timelines of some of that. But again, to get us in a stronger position to represent all women working in the sector.

Alex: 38:48

That's amazing. I think we'll leave that there. Thank you so much for joining us today, Yvonne.

Yvonne: 38:54

No problem. Thank you for having me.