Ep 173 - Creating Space: Leveraging Introvert and Extrovert Strengths with Todd Weinstein and Jenn Kaye

Have you ever wondered how introverts and extroverts can effectively collaborate and communicate in both personal and professional settings?

In this enlightening episode of The Quiet And Strong Podcast, host David Hall chats with Todd Weinstein and Jenn Kaye about their unique partnership that beautifully balances Todd's extroverted expressiveness with Jenn's introverted thoughtfulness. Listeners will discover insights into leveraging individual strengths, the importance of creating space for diverse communication styles, and the transformative power of effective communication in leadership.

Todd and Jenn explain their transformational process of communicating with confidence and presence, creating clarity around your message, and how self-awareness and focusing on your strengths can significantly boost confidence. Whether you're an introvert or extrovert, this episode offers valuable strategies for enhancing your interactions and building stronger relationships. Tune in to learn, grow, and be strong.

Episode Link: QuietandStrong.com/173

CCP Journeys | Todd Weinstein | Jenn Kaye

Jenn Kaye & Todd Weinstein share over 40 years of experience in Leadership and Professional Development through coaching, consulting & facilitation.

As an extrovert, Todd enjoys painting a picture with as many words as possible, is winner of the Word Count Olympics & relishes in redundancy. An executive coach and team facilitator, Todd has a rich background in leadership & organizational strategy. 

As an introvert, Jenn loves exploring the Rubik’s cube that is human communication, is author of The Overthinkers Guide & savors brevity. A master facilitator, language expert and executive coach, Jenn brings a rich background in executive presence & communication. 

Together, they are the co-creators & co-conspirators of Communicating with Confidence & Presence™, a transformational learning experience for mid-level leaders who are at the pivot point of strategy & execution.

After years of recognizing that traditional “training” or on-demand learning while having short-term results, was not creating systemic or lasting change, they partnered together with a shared vision for a program that would change the way leaders approa

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Transcript

Todd Weinstein [00:00:00]:
But it does feel like a true partnership that we built over the years. Jan, I don't know if you have a a thought on what you've seen in the differences there.

Jenn Kaye [00:00:08]:
It's really fun to watch the differences when we're creating or designing or fulfilling something. Let's say we're putting into writing. Todd will pull up a document and start typing. Right? Like, he'll just dive right in and start doing. And and one of the things that I've learned and so deeply appreciate is that's part of his process. Like, it's like talking it out, whether it's writing it out or what have you and giving him the space to do that. Then we come back in with edits and probably take out anywhere between

Todd Weinstein [00:00:36]:
40% because of you know?

Jenn Kaye [00:00:38]:
How can we do that? Rather than saying, no. No. Don't do it this way or I wouldn't do it that way. It's I I going back to this idea of creating space.

David Hall [00:00:57]:
Hello, and welcome to episode 173 of the Quiet and Strong podcast, especially for introverts. I'm your host, David Hall. I'm the creator of quiet and strong dot com. This is a weekly podcast dedicated to understanding the strengths and needs of introverts. Introversion is not something to fix but to be embraced. Normally, we'll have each episode on a Monday. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform. Leave a review.

David Hall [00:01:21]:
That would mean a lot to me. Tell a friend about the podcast. Help get the word out there. The introversion is a beautiful thing. Jen k and Todd Weinstein share over 40 years of experience in leadership and professional development through coaching, consulting, and facilitation. As an extrovert, Todd and Joyce, painting a picture with as many words as possible is a winner of the Word Count Olympics and relishes in redundancy. An executive coach and team facilitator, Todd has a rich background in leadership and organizational strategy. As an introvert, Jen loves exploring the Rubik's cube of human connection, is the author of The Overthinker's Guide and Savers Brevity, A master facilitator, language expert, and executive coach, Jen brings a rich background in executive presence and communication.

David Hall [00:02:20]:
Together, they are the cocreators and coconspirators of communicating with confidence and presence, a transformative learning experience for mid level leaders who are at the pivot point of strategy and execution. After years of recognizing that traditional training or on demand learning while having short term results was not creating systematic or lasting change, they partnered together with the shared vision for a program that would change the way leaders approached executive presence. Alright. Well, welcome to the Quiet and Strong podcast, Todd and Jen. It's so great to have you both on the show today.

Jenn Kaye [00:02:59]:
Thanks for having us today.

David Hall [00:03:02]:
And, so we have business partners, and one's a introvert, and one's a extrovert. And I think this is this conversation is gonna be a lot of fun today. Alright. So, Donna Jen, just tell us a little bit about yourselves and and then how you started working together.

Jenn Kaye [00:03:18]:
So it's really kind of interesting. Collectively, Todd and I have over, I don't know, maybe 30 years at at least, right, of experience in HR, leadership development, communication through coaching, consulting, facilitation, all kinds of organizations. And what was interesting is we met Todd, correct me. Where did we met? It was the ATD conference, I think.

Todd Weinstein [00:03:45]:
Yeah. I think years back at an ATD conference, I was one of the participants in one of your workshops, and I had been invited by a mutual colleague and got to watch you in action and just really felt like I connected with some of the things that you were sharing and the way you were sharing with the audience.

Jenn Kaye [00:04:04]:
Yeah. So Todd and I, we had we ended up having this really great conversation and and exploration recognizing that we had similar, philosophies around training and development and recognizing that this idea of traditional training or even on demand learning while having some great short term results, it wasn't really creating more systemic or or lasting change. It wasn't really being sustained. And so we came together to explore this conversation. Todd, I'll let you talk a little bit about your your background in leadership.

Todd Weinstein [00:04:41]:
Yeah. I think I remember a lot of conversations, long conversations where the theme was, I think there's a better way to do this, you know, than the traditional way of training. And I have a background in leadership development, organizational change. And so I was looking at it through that kind of organizational lens because I had been doing that internally for so long and realizing some of the things that, you know, have been happening for so long in training, in quotes, were not leading to lasting results for people. They were sort of a one hit, great experience for the moment, and then people would return to their, you know, typical way of leading other people. And what about for you, Jen, in terms of your background? I know it's different than mine.

Jenn Kaye [00:05:27]:
Yes. So my background is in language communication and, somatics performance. So it was really this unique match of 2 different lenses with an aligned philosophy that has become a really elegant, fun, creative, and collaborative partnership.

David Hall [00:05:46]:
Yeah. And I'm looking forward to getting more into that, into the work that you're doing together. But, of course, first, let's talk a little bit more about introversion, extroversion. So Todd is the extrovert and Jen is the introvert. And Jen, let's start with you. So when did you figure out that you were an introvert?

Jenn Kaye [00:06:02]:
This is so interesting because growing up, I don't think I ever looked at myself through that lens. And it's one of the greatest gifts where as a facilitator, you're doing your own learning. As a coach, you're doing your own exploration. So it was actually in my own development that came across MBTI and that whole idea of where we get energy from. And that was really enlightening for me because as a performer, as someone who my my roles always were about serving people, it made a lot of sense that that's actually where I get energy from. So that when I get really quiet or I go internally to process information, it it was just a huge connector. So that's where I first found out was MBTI.

David Hall [00:06:50]:
Okay. And when I asked this, not in all introvert struggle, but did was it a struggle for you to introversion?

Jenn Kaye [00:06:58]:
That's a super interesting question. I don't know that I've ever thought about it through the lens of struggle necessarily. I will say there was always an element of I feel different from the people around me and I couldn't quite describe it.

David Hall [00:07:17]:
Okay. And that's great. And and I always wanna say that not all introverts struggle with it. Some are just confident and know their gifts, and it's great. And then some do and are able to learn to embrace, and that's that's a lot of what this show is about. And then there's still some out there that need to embrace their gifts. What is the strength that you have because you're an introvert?

Jenn Kaye [00:07:38]:
I think one of I I there are probably two strengths that I really lean into as as the introvert while confessions of an overthink are right here. I I think the deep listening, I really take time to listen to what someone is saying so that I can really understand what's underneath. Right? Maybe a little more root cause rather than the surface level. So one aspect is the the listening and the other is creating the space to be heard. So rather than in injecting myself, I take that time not to not only listen, but process and create that space.

David Hall [00:08:19]:
Yeah. How do you create that space to be heard?

Jenn Kaye [00:08:22]:
You stop talking. That's the the the the first the first one is is really to stop talking to remove the agenda about anything that they have to say being about you. And then that allows you to be fully present to the person in front of you and what their experience in that moment is. And by being present, then you bring the curiosity. And again, I I think if we're talking about a struggle, one of the biggest challenges is removing yourself from that. It's not about you. It's about them. And that task the space if that makes sense.

David Hall [00:08:59]:
Yeah. So important. And then on this show, we talk about strengths of introverts, but we also bust some myths. Is there a myth about introversion you wanna bust today?

Jenn Kaye [00:09:09]:
I think everyone has their own version of introversion. There's no one way to introvert. You know, it's not a one shot wonder. So if we look at what was it? It was on the, the the great pyramid or the temple of Alexandria. Someone's going to if I'm going to completely demolish the actual reference of know thyself, know thyself. And when you know yourself and what it is that you need. So if it is that space or time to get your energy from some place else, know thyself and find your own find what introversion is for you.

David Hall [00:09:46]:
Well said. I love that. It's it's really that's the whole key. We're it's about half the population are introverts and half extroverts. And, of course, that means that we're not all the same. We have a lot of differences and that's beautiful. Yeah. Get to know yourself and what you need and understand what other people need.

Jenn Kaye [00:10:04]:
Yeah. And be able to ask for what you need. I think for introverts, especially, there's a pressure maybe self created and self generated that we need to show up and be present and have the behavior of extroverts. And and so sometimes we'll push ourselves into that. Going back to the know thyself when you recognize that maybe you need some space or time or to disconnect from people or spend time outside to be able to learn how to ask for it, whether that's setting boundaries, whether that's finding the things and saying to your children, your partner, your boss, give me 5 minutes or, you know, let me get back to you tomorrow and taking the space that you need. I don't think we do that enough as introverts.

David Hall [00:10:47]:
Yeah. And those are yeah. You mentioned a couple really very important needs. Absolutely. Todd, we've had a couple of good conversations about introversion and extroversion. When did you first learn about the differences in our personalities?

Todd Weinstein [00:10:59]:
Yeah. I I mean, if I really go back, I'm the son of a clinical psychologist. So I think there was something in my early upbringing that always had me exposed to the differences in people and actually had me curious about it. I I noticed early on that I had a an energy gain from collaborating, from being in conversation, and that started to, you know, get me aware of my own natural tendencies. I went through m b I MBTI certification, and that's where I really got the language and the understanding of introversion and extroversion and where we get that energy from. The personal experience for me, the 2 things maybe that have been helpful when it comes time to extroversion versus introversion, what was leading a team of largely introverted people? When I realized that they didn't work the same way as I did, I couldn't just get a bunch of people in the room, start brainstorming and asking questions and expecting ideas to to generate. And that realization came when one person came to my office at the end of a meeting going, you know, if you want us all to be more involved in those meetings, you may wanna give us a heads up about what we're gonna talk about and what you'd like to maybe do some brainstorming around. Even a day or 2 in advance would help.

Todd Weinstein [00:12:12]:
So I did that, and sure enough, it was a completely different meeting. So I started to realize what the unlock was with a team that were largely quieter, more reserved, and I would say probably self described introverts. That was a huge opportunity for me to learn what it really felt like to create more space. The other thing is I realized as a someone working inside organizations around talent and talent development and setting up people for promotions, there was a bias towards extroversion. And so with assessments and other tools, we really tried to shift the way we looked at who's ready to move up in the organization by not just being the person who's the loudest in the room, the most talkative, the most likely to speak up because there were so many great ideas and perspectives that some of our quieter leaders had that weren't getting recognized. So working to do that. And then the last thing I would say is I'm holding I know your listeners can't see this, but this is a nicely printed business card that just says stop talking on it. And my colleague Brenda made those for her coaching clients, and she gave me one.

Todd Weinstein [00:13:23]:
And I I literally keep it here on my desk because it's a good reminder when I'm coaching to, you know, just keep my mouth shut sometimes and ask the question and and listen. So that's that's been a really useful practice for me.

David Hall [00:13:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. You definitely highlighted some of the key things that I learned. Like, with brainstorming, sometimes we're gonna come up with some great things together, like, the collaboration, and and I do enjoy it. But also as an introvert, a couple of things, I do some great deep thought and come up with great ideas on my own, and we have to look at both of those things are valuable. And the other thing is you mentioned preparation. For me, that's key. If you wanna discuss some things maybe I haven't thought of before, I need an agenda ahead of time.

David Hall [00:14:14]:
I need to know what's happening. And just understanding all these differences, you know, that introverts, we think deeply. Can we think often before we speak? Extroverts, you said, you know, you you get an energy from collaborating. So I do sometimes, but in general, you know, I'm generally gonna, you know, think before I speak. So, yeah, those are all such important things to understand.

Todd Weinstein [00:14:36]:
Yeah. For me, it's the other way around. Right? I'll say something. It doesn't quite make sense. And then in conversation through others, it starts to make sense. I'll think about that, and then I'll speak more. So I I definitely notice that difference when and Jen and I work differently and yet complimentary ways. She recognizes sometimes I'm gonna bring a lot of words into the mix.

Todd Weinstein [00:14:58]:
And I recognize sometimes just staying quiet and thinking about what she's saying rather than just immediately responding has been helpful too on my best days.

David Hall [00:15:09]:
Yeah. And I don't know about you, Jen, but I want the things I say to make sense the first time around. Are you tend to be like that?

Jenn Kaye [00:15:18]:
David, I am so much like that. Yeah. And I'm laughing. So I one of my signature processes is how to communicate better in 10 words or less. And the process, it's 5 steps. The process actually allows you to internalize and connect with what's happening for you. It's what I call bridging that magical gap between what you think, what you feel, and then the words that actually come out of your mouth. Because I do need that I I I want to be clear and there's a lot that happens.

Jenn Kaye [00:15:46]:
So I work with a lot of engineers and it's to me, it's just a system. How how can I systemize what I'm thinking and feeling so that I can be clear in what I think it is that I'm communicating and feel confident about it the first time?

David Hall [00:16:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So definitely, we're talking about some differences. And, again, you're working together as as as partners. Are there other differences that you've had to learn to work through?

Jenn Kaye [00:16:11]:
Todd, do you wanna

Todd Weinstein [00:16:12]:
Sure. I would say recognizing the differences in our styles. You know, when we first started talking, at least from my perspective, Jen, it felt like we were philosophically aligned on things, and we didn't quite know each other's work styles. So the more we got into working and developing our communication with confidence program and philosophy and tenets, the more we started to discover, I'm gonna bring in a lot of words more than I sometimes need to. Jen's gonna be more quiet and thoughtful and then say, you know, that well thought out idea. The other thing is we have different backgrounds. So I I really learn have learned a lot from working with Jen around communication, succinctness, ways in which you can bring in your idea and express it for your audience. Whereas, you know, I like to believe that I have helped bring in that lens of what is important for leaders when they're communicating throughout the organization, the differences in types of messaging that are needing to happen at different levels, but also a real appreciation and respect for those differences in a way that I think has allowed us to strengthen our programs, to create a good experience for our participants.

Todd Weinstein [00:17:26]:
I mean, everyone gets to see a little bit of something in themselves if they're working with both of us at the same time because they can recognize if they're more, let's say, talkative or a verbal processing, that there's gonna be a little bit of me in them maybe. And with Jen, they may see and notice. Look, I'll I'll give you an example. Jen, I noticed this this week. When we go to lunch breaks, I'm more likely to be sitting, like, with a group, chatting with 3, 4 people, like, having a bigger conversation. And I look over at Jen's, like, having a pretty, like, in-depth exchange with one person. You know, and so that I think that's a really good example of just noticing. And everyone appreciates those differences because they're connecting with us in different ways.

David Hall [00:18:10]:
Yeah. I can imagine that that I I've been through this. I've, done some presentations with a extroverted colleague of mine, and I can, definitely see how that was powerful for those that you're presenting to where they can see differences and that it all works together and it's a it's a good thing. There's no good or bad here. It's just there's different and we need to understand our differences. Like, I'm gonna be the same way. I'm gonna if in that situation, there's a lunch break, I'm gonna wanna have some good deep conversations, and I know somebody, not good or bad, is gonna wanna have a lot of conversations. It's all good.

Todd Weinstein [00:18:45]:
But it does feel like a true partnership that we built over the years. Jan, I don't know if you have a a thought on what you've seen in the

David Hall [00:18:53]:
differences there.

Jenn Kaye [00:18:53]:
It's really fun to watch the differences. So Todd will often when we're creating or designing or fulfilling something, let's say we're putting into writing, Todd will pull up a document and start typing. Right? Like, he'll just dive right in and start doing. And and one of the things that I've learned and so deeply appreciate is that's part of his process. Like, he it's it's it's like talking it out, whether it's writing it out or what have you and giving him the space to do that. Then we come back in with edits and probably take out anywhere between people and our competitors. You know? And then we do that rather than saying, no. No.

Jenn Kaye [00:19:28]:
Don't do it this way or I wouldn't do it that way. It's I I going back to this idea of creating space, I think we both sort of observe where each other is and what each other needs. And rather than either fighting for the same space or approach, create the space and allow for it and and yield and and work with that. I I think that's when Todd, would you is was that

Todd Weinstein [00:19:53]:
Yeah. I would agree. And the other thing I would say is there's I mean, I'm a fairly visual person, so that's why I'm often using models or things that I want to look at things. And, Jen, my sense of you is you have a fairly embodied sense of the, you know, the the work that you do as a communicator. So once Jen gets up and starts talking to a group, you know, there's like a wrapped attention on her because of her presence that I think really serves her well. And and, you know, one might not know that she's more introverted because of the way she shows up in that way. But there's a lot of thought and a lot of under the current that's going on there before she is going to speak up in that way in a very thoughtful approach to what she's going to say. I might have one idea of what I wanna start with and then start talking and then bring in other things.

Todd Weinstein [00:20:43]:
So we have different styles, and I think people appreciate when we're facilitating what that looks like too because it shows a bit of our personalities.

David Hall [00:20:52]:
Yeah. Just, go ahead.

Jenn Kaye [00:20:54]:
Sorry, dear. Could I add this? Because I think it's it's interesting. So INFP here and the the the feeling the feeling my way into things. As Todd was saying, it's it's it's feeling where people are at. It's feeling the energy in the room. It's assessing things. And then he and I get to come back. We have what we call micro adjustments in the moment so that anything that needs to shift based on, you know, both ENTP for Todd, INFP for me.

Jenn Kaye [00:21:26]:
And so that that thinking and feeling, we get to adjust and make micro choices in the moment as to how to best serve others. So even through those differences, we model the extroversion, the introversion. We model male and female facilitation. We model what it's like to disagree in a really elegant way. And so I think all of those things maybe come together, David.

David Hall [00:21:49]:
Oh, that's beautiful. And, yeah. So I'm a thinking person too. And so it's there's definitely lots of different personalities. There's lots of different personality strengths that we have. There's lots of differences, nuances. And I I focus on introversion, extroversion because I just see the issues that come with it. But thinking it versus feeling, there's gifts there on both sides.

David Hall [00:22:14]:
But if you don't understand how someone's approaching from a feeling aspect where you can actually feel other people's feelings, And Todd and I might not so much. You know? It's more of a logical approach. There could be a lot of misunderstanding there too. But if you can harness those strengths like it sounds like you have both have, that's that's amazing.

Jenn Kaye [00:22:34]:
We have a lot of

Todd Weinstein [00:22:35]:
I won't I won't always say it's always been easy. I mean, I think anytime you're in relationship with someone you're working with closely, you're gonna have disagreements. There are different ways that you approach things. There may be frustrations. I also think the way in which we've learned to communicate those feelings or those thoughts with each other has been a testament to how we've gotten through those in a way that's helped make, you know, our products better or our deliveries more effective. It's just like any relationship, you know, there's gonna be moments where you don't always see eye to eye. It's the ability to work through those things that we've been able to do. And like Jen said, sometimes even modeling, like, in the room with people so they can see what that looks like in a healthy way.

David Hall [00:23:20]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. This is this is all such good stuff. Let's talk about the the work that you are doing. Tell us about DCP journey.

Jenn Kaye [00:23:29]:
Well, CCP is a quick way of saying communicating with confidence and presence. That is our signature program, and the journey program is a transformative process that helps leaders transform the way they communicate and lead others. It's it's it's a cohort based learning. We call it a journey because when it comes to all of these things, communication, leadership, confidence, presence, it's a lifetime conversation and a daily practice, not a, you know, magical like, you blink your you know, cross your arms, blink your eyes, and you're magically confident and present and everything shifts. So we do believe that that it's a journey, and it it creates the opportunity for leaders to transform the way that they communicate for greater impact starting from the inside out.

David Hall [00:24:21]:
So tell us more about that. Go ahead. Yeah. I was

Todd Weinstein [00:24:24]:
just gonna add in a little bit. I think the other thing is it looks at communication not just through a single lens of, like, presentation skills or or certain things that people sometimes equate to going to per through programs like this. It looks at a much broader sense of communication. So when people are engaged in this program, they're thinking about all the different contexts with which they're communicating in meetings, facilitating, leading large efforts in dialogue and simple conversation with one other person, influence, all those things, and, you know, the way they present and show up if they have to give a presentation to the executive team. So while it's getting at the executive presence, if you will, piece, it also helps people recognize how they're showing up everywhere. And sometimes the confidence they're feeling is related to the lack of clarity with which they need to express their message and who they are as individuals. So once they start to get clear on all that, we start to see them transform, as Jen said, into a much more confident and present person because they now know, a, who they are, and, b, what they actually want to say and how that relates to their broader context.

David Hall [00:25:40]:
Yeah. And so I know you both were telling me you just came off a 3 day workshop. Obviously, we don't have 3 days here, but I'd love to hear we would love to hear in a nutshell, how do you do this? What are the issues with communication? How do you overcome them? How do you help someone create confidence and presence?

Jenn Kaye [00:25:58]:
I love this question because it's really not helping them create it. It's creating a space where they can access it. And so the stories, beliefs the stories and beliefs that they have about who they are and why they're there is really what's holding them back. And so by creating that space and connecting some of the dots for them by truly creating an experience, which we think about it through the lens of self, others, and ecosystem. And while we could teach anybody how to stand, what to say, and how to say it, at the end of the day, if when they don't believe it themselves, that's really where the breakdown comes. So it's not about the tact tactical aspects of how to give a presentation. As Todd was was saying, when they can access their own authenticity and get clarity on what the stories are, what the beliefs are, what they think is holding them back, and recognize that that's actually not what's holding them back. They shift their entire perception of themselves in two and a half days.

Jenn Kaye [00:27:04]:
Would I Todd, would you say it's really between the afternoon of that that second day after the presentations? So on on day 2 the day 1, we just have sort of an introduction. Day 2, they come in and straight out of the gate, they are giving a 3 minute presentation that is videotaped and given back to them for their own review so they can access, right, their their own internal feedback loop by watching themselves, by listening to themselves. They get input from from each other. Then Tuesday afternoon, we have a lot of content. And I think, Todd, this is that afternoon between the the content and clarity and communication, asking questions. We it's a little more tactical on, you know, how to self regulate their emotions and then see that their leaders who have participated as well, it's a dual enrollment process, don't see them the way they see themselves. It's it completely unlocks Yeah. Where they come in.

Jenn Kaye [00:28:01]:
So that by the afternoon of day of 3rd day, they present again. They've only got 8 minutes to prepare. They have completely shifted. They stand, and they're more confident. They're more clear in their messaging. Their presence is more relaxed. There are fewer filler words. And it happens automatically because they've accessed their own confidence and presence.

Todd Weinstein [00:28:25]:
Yeah. I think 2 things happen on that second day to your point, Jen, that we we really noticed this week as we have another program deliveries. 1 is the awareness of the gap between what they were saying and thinking about themselves versus what other people actually experience. Right? Because now they start to see an objective video of themselves and 11, let's say, pieces of input from others, and they start to see that I actually am way harder on myself than other people actually experience, or or I felt more nervous than actually other people saw and experienced themselves. The second thing that they start to understand is some of the physiology and the brain science and the pieces around why am I doing that? What's happening in my body, in my brain, in my mindset that is holding me back from feeling confident? And once we start to put those pieces together, then by day 3, they start to see, okay. So now that I understand how to do this better, where do I wanna go apply that? Well, that's in inside my organization or that's with strategy or influence or other pieces. Now I know where I can, you know, channel that good shift in my communication style or my leadership approach towards having an impact in, you know, the broader ecosystem as Jen said. So those are kind of the 2 pivot points that start to happen in this program from what we notice.

Todd Weinstein [00:29:46]:
The way that happens might differ by person, by style, by, you know, introversion, extroversion, But that's ultimately the the process that's starting to unfold for that.

David Hall [00:29:56]:
And how do you help them start that process? What what's what's some examples of something that might be part of this workshop?

Todd Weinstein [00:30:02]:
You were talking about your, you know, 5 steps. I don't know if you wanna share a little bit more about those pieces or others.

Jenn Kaye [00:30:08]:
Well, I think it begins. When we look at the first step, David, it's it's giving them a chance to reference themselves. So we start with a presurvey. We start with a pre survey for both themselves and their and and their managers. So, you know, we have a baseline starting point. And, Todd, I think that's where it begins because of the questions that we ask. So as an example, we ask them about their their comfort level with different ways of communicating. Then we ask them 5 words they would use to describe themselves.

Jenn Kaye [00:30:39]:
Five words they think others would use to describe them. And and then anything that we might not know that you'd like to share with us. And that's where we get some really interesting and, I think, vulnerable information, Todd, of, you know, whether whether I'm an introvert or this is where I struggle or I have ADHD or I can't hear in one ear or people really let us know so that on the background, we have a little bit of personal insight. And I think that's the first point of reflection that they actually have for how we get them there is by asking questions, and it starts with that.

Todd Weinstein [00:31:17]:
And we we provide that back to them in the workshop so that they can start to see what they said was important, the biggest challenges they were having. We also help them tap into what they're like at their best. So another thing that really helps to unfold is not to make this all about problem, you know, deficit. How do you leverage the things that you're already good at? What are the strengths, the gifts, the things that you already naturally bring? And helping them tap into their sort of at my best state also helps to rewire a little bit that tendency to always think, you know, I'm doing something wrong or I'm not getting where I want and changing the paradigm a bit. So that strengths based approach also filters into that first day in a way that they they have a very clear picture of where do they want to make a shift, but also what do they like at their best that they can do more of or leverage in a new way. And that is an an empowering factor for them.

David Hall [00:32:18]:
Yeah. I love that you're taking a strengths based approach. I had another podcast interview this week, and many people on my show said they went through the experience of what's wrong with me. You know? And my guest said, you know, it's really it changed that to what's strong with me. And I just I just love that. You know? It's like, that's what it's all about. What are my strengths? And, you know, you'll figure out your weaknesses, but if we could focus mostly on our strengths. So I love that you're taking that approach.

Jenn Kaye [00:32:49]:
I think a strengths based approach really is very complimentary to even the idea of introversion. And that looking for what right? Looking for where you're strong first. Looking where you're energized. What comes naturally to you. I have multiple certifications with standout, and that it never ceases to amaze me that we're we're so conditioned to look for what's wrong, and most of us are paid, right, to to bridge that gap and to look for what's wrong. And so the idea of looking at ourselves and looking at each other for what's going right, what's going well, what am I great at first? And often our strengths are something that's so instinctive and so natural for us. It would never even occur to us to think of it as a strength. So to be able to bring that approach in and reflect it back and have them recognizing continues to be a thread in helping them increase their level of confidence of going, oh, wait a minute.

Jenn Kaye [00:33:48]:
There are all these things that I actually do really well, which is how I got to be here, which is why I'm actually trusted, and my leadership has invested in me to be here rather than looking at me as a problem to be fixed.

David Hall [00:34:01]:
Absolutely. So when you're when you're both doing presentations or communication type workshops, it really is all the different forms of communication like like you said, whether it's 1 on 1 or meetings or presentations. It it's about the whole everything. Correct?

Jenn Kaye [00:34:16]:
Correct.

Todd Weinstein [00:34:16]:
Absolutely. And we we ask people to come in with specific examples of things that they're working on or the context effectively. And and they're they're often different. So they're learning a lot from each other, and they're seeing how, a, they maybe have similar challenges or areas that they're working on, and sometimes, b, where they have strengths in areas that others don't and they can support and help one another, which is a huge part of the peer learning aspect of working with a cohort.

David Hall [00:34:52]:
Yeah. And so I know some of these questions you probably could give me hour long answers. But what does, in a nutshell, what does effective communication look like?

Todd Weinstein [00:35:03]:
You know, I was thinking about that question. The first thing that came to mind was was you, David. I mean, you've you've done a 170 interviews on this podcast. And I would I would be really interested to know what you have seen as effective yourself after so many of these interviews. And then I'd love to sort of comment on the back end of that.

David Hall [00:35:25]:
Okay. So as far as myself or other people that I've talked with?

Todd Weinstein [00:35:30]:
Right. As you've learned from these 170 interviews, was there a sense of what effective communication looked like from those?

David Hall [00:35:38]:
Well, just, you know, from the introvert extrovert perspective, I've definitely over many years now, at least 10 years, have learned that for me to be my best, I need to prepare my best. And you can't prepare for everything. But whether it be a meeting or even a conversation or the podcast, For the podcast, I put together questions, and I send them. Often, my guests are introverts. Todd, you know, you're amongst the handful of extroverts I've had on. And still the extrovert, some appreciate the questions. One extrovert that I had on my show said, yeah, I just wanna be free. I don't I don't wanna think about it ahead of time, which is fine.

David Hall [00:36:21]:
I just I don't operate that way. And just really understanding that what do I want to share. And then there's gonna be things that I haven't thought about, but then getting really comfortable with, hey. Give me a minute to think about that or talk talk to you tomorrow. Just really understanding that I think first as we've been talking about and then I speak and also just remembering and I think Jen was just talking about this that what I have to share is important. You know? Yeah. If you're giving a presentation, guess what? It's because you have some expertise that, you know, you're not giving it you're not being asked to give a presentation on something you're not expert in. So just remember that you have something important to share.

David Hall [00:37:06]:
And the other thing is I I I don't know if there's any correlation with perfectionism and introversion, extroversion. I think we can definitely be harder on ourselves because we spend a lot of time in our heads. And just remember, something else was I'm not perfect. You know, I'm giving this speech. It's not gonna be perfect. It's I'm gonna prepare my very best, but nobody's perfect.

Todd Weinstein [00:37:26]:
Yeah. And so the the short answer to that question in my mind would be maybe three things. 1 is the the message transmitted, the message received. Right? And and if you're saying something that you think is clear and isn't landing in a clear way and you don't know that, then you can think you're communicating effectively and you actually aren't. The second thing is, do you know your audience? You know, do you know the person or the group that you're speaking to in a way that isn't just coming from your point of view, but understanding, empathizing, appreciating what they are going to be receiving? And then probably the third thing is, do you know how to be in dialogue? Even if it's with a group, do you know how to ask a question and listen? Do you know how to create a two way communication loop? Because sometimes people think they're communicating, let's say, leaders I work with, and they're just standing up at a town hall going on for 45 minutes. Did they create any kind of interactivity? Did they listen and build in some of the input from people ahead of time, or did they just stand up and talk with a deck for 45 minutes straight? So so communication maybe has some elements of those things, and being able to validate and verify that what we're saying is actually being heard and received and that that person feels heard when they speak up is a huge part of that and and a big part of what I know I work with leaders 1 on 1 with, and we see that a lot in our programs. Jen, what would you add or look at differently maybe?

Jenn Kaye [00:39:01]:
In light of our time and to your point, David, before I step before I step right down the rabbit hole like Alice in Wonderland because this is I could have this conversation all day long. Right? This is this is the the the geekery for me. So I I think, Todd, you you said that and I'd like to acknowledge that you shared that quite succinctly.

David Hall [00:39:24]:
Thank you.

Todd Weinstein [00:39:27]:
Lifetime practice.

Jenn Kaye [00:39:28]:
Exactly. Exactly. It's a lifetime conversation and a daily practice. No. I I I would certainly echo everything there. I think there's a stat that up to 70 percent of all communication can get lost between the the sender and the receiver. And so the effectiveness of being able to be in dialogue, to ask questions, to listen, to do all of those things is especially important for effectiveness.

David Hall [00:39:59]:
Yeah. And, here's a a related question. So, yeah, I love how you said the message needs to be received. How is it being received? There's so many everybody has their own lens that they're receiving that through. You know? It it can be a big challenge to reach many different people at the same time with many different needs and things. What do you say about that?

Jenn Kaye [00:40:22]:
Here's what comes to mind if if I may. So my background's in languages. I majored in Japanese. I minored in Russian. I speak some Spanish, some French, and a couple other things on a good day. I speak eldest child, which is different than middle or youngest child. It's dog, cat, horse. Like so my my point being that, you know, while I could go on, I And And and so having an understanding of the other person as Todd was saying, that the context in which they're coming from, you're you're going to adapt your message.

Jenn Kaye [00:40:57]:
You it's it's a bit little bit like building a bridge. You might speak to a friend very casually or a family member and say things in a very different way than you would your key stakeholders or the c suite. And and so as that adapts, that was one of the things that I learned in in Japanese. People would say, oh, it's such a People would say, oh, it's such a hard language. It it it isn't. When you

David Hall [00:41:16]:
look at there is such intentionality in

Jenn Kaye [00:41:17]:
what I'm saying and who I'm saying it to. And and so that piece, David, I saying it to. And and so that piece, David, I think in answering your question, that's what comes up to me is that if we can look at it through the lens of we're constantly in a state of translation. And if we can be curious about how someone else is communicating and why. And rather than taking that personally, I I I I do speak the occasional male. It's a very different language. You know? As a female, it does take some translation. It it becomes so much more fun and so much lighter and so much more effective when, you know, when you think of it doesn't matter if you say the grammar wrong or the pronunciation is a little off.

Jenn Kaye [00:42:05]:
The fact that you made even the effort to understand and speak somebody else's language, Right?

David Hall [00:42:17]:
That

Jenn Kaye [00:42:21]:
Right? That openness to it rather than a shutting down of it.

David Hall [00:42:24]:
Wow. And just to kinda sum up, how can people be confident and have presence? How would you wrap that part up?

Todd Weinstein [00:42:33]:
I think Jen said it before. You know, this is a lifetime conversation and daily practice. So we need to continually be working on ourselves, understanding ourselves, and and identifying the behaviors that are gonna help us be most successful in communicating. Of course, joining us on a CCP journey is one way to do that. But just continually being humbled by the confidence and presence that people bring when they go through these programs by tapping into what they know they're good at, starting with those strengths, what's working, and then identifying what are the specific behavioral shifts using video and things like that, or even recording yourself on a phone conversation and listening to yourself after can be a, like, a very simple way to notice filler words, interruptions, ways in which you're communicating that you don't even realize, but there's data there to to notice. I think the other thing I would just share briefly is this is a huge opportunity. You know, the pandemic had a way of amplifying the importance of communication and transparency and, you know, diverse communication approaches because of the way that people are now working together and making decisions. And we were looking at, like, a a Grammarly Harris poll that estimated that $1,200,000,000,000 annual loss across US businesses for poor communication.

Todd Weinstein [00:44:01]:
So if people don't recognize that it's kind of everyone's opportunity to do something about that, then they may see communication as everyone else's problem but their own. So I think the way in which people get better is by breaking it down into small, clear behavioral shifts, mindset shifts, awareness to that internal and external state, and and slowly starting to see that that can make a huge difference in the quality of their relationships, their interactions, or their their outcomes that they want, wherever that may be.

David Hall [00:44:34]:
Yeah. I love that. So it's it's a it's a life it's a lifetime work, but a daily practice. That's amazing.

Jenn Kaye [00:44:41]:
Yeah. It is. You're you're you're never there. You're never at some imaginary destination of there. We hear we say this in our language off often. Oh, I'm not there yet. Well, there is a constantly moving target. So we're it's it's learning how to appreciate here.

Jenn Kaye [00:44:59]:
And as Todd was saying, find find what's next. We very strongly believe that communication and of itself confidence and presence. These are essential or meta skills, not actually a soft skill.

David Hall [00:45:12]:
Yeah. I could talk to you both all day. This has been a wonderful conversation. Is there anything else that either of you or both of you wanna add today that you haven't already?

Jenn Kaye [00:45:21]:
Oh my gosh. This has been so much fun. Thank you. Thank you, David, for having us and and having a deep meaningful conversation and dialogue. I've really appreciated it.

Todd Weinstein [00:45:33]:
Likewise. It's been wonderful to be in conversation with you and and with you, Chen, as always.

David Hall [00:45:41]:
So your workshop sound amazing. Where can Pete find out more about the great work that you're doing?

Jenn Kaye [00:45:46]:
People we we always believe that everything starts with the conversation. So our our email is hello@ccpjourney.com. You can visit our website atccpjourneydot com. And for any questions, please reach out personally. We we cherish that opportunity and believe that it all starts with a conversation and getting to know the person in front of us.

David Hall [00:46:06]:
Sounds great. Thanks again, Todd and Jen. This has been a wonderful conversation.

Jenn Kaye [00:46:10]:
Thanks, David.

David Hall [00:46:11]:
Thank you. Thank you so

David Hall [00:46:13]:
much for joining me today. I look forward to further connecting with you. Reach out at david@quietandstrong.com, or check out the kuaiandstrong.com website, which includes blog posts and links to social media channels. Send me topics or guests you would like to see on the show. If you're interested in getting to know yourself better, there's now a free type finder personality assessment on the Quiet and Strong website. This free assessment will give you a brief report, including the 4 letter Myers Briggs code, and you can also have the option of purchasing the full report if you'd like to learn more. I'll add a link to the show notes. So many great things about being an introvert, and we need those to be understood.

David Hall [00:46:51]:
Get to know your introverted strengths and needs, and be strong.