A Breakdown of Societal Trauma and Healing with Psychotherapist Phyllis Leavitt

Imagine growing up in an environment devoid of love, support, or even basic respect. Now, imagine the coping mechanisms one might develop in such an environment, only to find that these mechanisms are not beneficial in the long run. That's what we delve into with seasoned psychotherapist, Phyllis Leavitt. From tracing the roots of societal issues back to familial or community-based trauma, we dissect the impact of discrimination, abuse, and neglect on an individual and society at large. We highlight the urgent need for more psychological education to understand and navigate these dynamics, further discussing how these problems are mirrored on a broader scale, threatening societal stability.

Are you aware of the two possible outcomes of an abusive upbringing - learned helplessness or identifying with the aggressor? Phyllis guides us through these dynamics and how they play out within our homes and society. We also touch on the overlooked gender dynamics and their societal impact. The conversation takes a deeper turn as we discuss the imbalance of power between men and women, the pendulum swing between genders, and the need for balanced role models.

But it's not all doom and gloom. We explore the impact of small acts of kindness and love within a community. The role of generosity in healing communities is highlighted, along with the sense of belonging that can deter destructive behaviors. We then switch gears to discuss the long-term effects of emotional pain and discrimination, emphasizing the crucial role of love and care. Finally, Phyllis gives us a sneak peek into her upcoming book that aims to underscore the importance of kindness and respect in transforming situations and lives. Join us as we delve into these pressing societal issues from a fresh perspective.

PHYLLIS Bio and links
I graduated from Antioch University with a Masters’ Degree in Psychology and Counseling in 1989. I co-directed a sexual abuse treatment program called Parents United in Santa Fe, New Mexico until 1991 before going into private practice full time. I have been a psychotherapist treating children, families, couples, and individual adults for over 30 years, and I have worked extensively with abuse and dysfunctional family dynamics, their aftermath, and some of the most important elements for healing. I have also published two books, A Light in the Darkness and Into the Fire, and I have a new book America in Therapy. I live in Taos, NM and I retired from my practice and focused on writing.

My website is www.phyllisleavitt.com

  https://www.facebook.com/phyllis.leavitt

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOdxqvDK9N421AZ5TTxqUgQ

https://www.linkedin.com/in/phyllis-leavitt-630179255/

https://www.instagram.com/pel2347/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello, hello, hello everybody. How are you all doing today? So we have Phyllis on today. We had a wonderful chat. Actually, I had to like stop her halfway through and turn on the recording button, because we were just chatting like old friends and it was amazing. I learned a lot about psychology and what, what's really going on in the world and and from her point of view, and we even challenge each other on certain ideals, and I like that. That was was a good intellectual tip for tat kind of thing, and I'm curious what you guys think. So when you make it to the end, give me a holler in reviews or messages or YouTube, and we'll go from there, phyllis. Like I said, phyllis was a great conversation and let's just get right into it. Welcome to the Josh Bolton show. We've done interesting and inspiring conversations, and now your host, josh Bolton. That's interesting. So what's the biggest one? You see, though, that coming up for? Like therapy, like trauma wise, is it like hurting the inner child and stuff like that?

Speaker 2: 1:20

You know, basically what I think brings people to therapy in the first place is something in their present life is really not working. Relationships aren't working, their creativity is blocked, their relationship with their children is suffering, they're having addiction problems or depression or mess of anxiety. So there's it's usually some kind of pain, like when you go to a doctor. Something in your body is not working and it's causing pain. You go to a doctor to heal and I think people go to therapy for the same reasons on an emotional, mental level and generally, what I have found over the many years that I've been a psychotherapist is that the original wounds happened long ago for most people, like in something in their family of origin, in their conditioning, perhaps in their community.

Speaker 2: 2:12

I know a lot of people of color, for instance, have had a lot of trauma in their community, not necessarily in their home, but in their community, being discriminated against as children on the playground, you know, which causes massive trauma, and so it's something in our conditioning that gave us a message that we're not okay, that there's something wrong with us or that we can't expect to be helped or loved or supported by other people, that we have grown up maybe with role models of conflict resolution that are highly aggressive or violent.

Speaker 2: 2:48

You know abuse, neglect on all different levels, you know it can be anywhere from just not really getting the love and support and affirmation you need and you know, just expected to be quiet and behave to overt abuse in a family or in a community and exposure to violence and hatred and discrimination.

Speaker 2: 3:12

So it can be any of those things, but it's something in our conditioning that leaves us feeling less than and then, as a result of that, most people come up with some kind of way to cope that hasn't really worked for them in their adult life. So you know, one child who's abused might withdraw and become sort of a loner, but really we all want love and connection. So being a loner doesn't actually work but it feels protective. And then at some point that defense mechanism breaks down or the defense might be becoming aggressive and starting fights with everyone. But you kind of get what I'm saying that the combination of what we've been taught about ourselves that isn't positive and isn't constructive or kind or loving, and the coping mechanisms that people develop to try to survive At some point for many people break down and that causes a lot of pain, but it also is a possibility. It creates the possibility for healing.

Speaker 1: 4:17

That's amazing. No, like you're, phyllis. That description you gave of the isolating to the getting angry that the reason I smiled and kept looking everywhere was that was me. I was like the only. I was the only white kid on a Mexican campus, so I got Wow, daily talk pretty much. And then when I went to junior high, being quiet wasn't enough, so I actually started fighting and I'm a big boy, I hit hard and that's where suddenly everyone's like he's a monster. So it's like crap, what do I do now? Kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 4:48

Yeah, exactly, and you're doing your best to survive in an environment that isn't supporting you to be your best self and your truest self.

Speaker 2: 4:59

And I took that exactly what you said, because I've seen that over and over and over again in one form after another, working with hundreds of clients over the years, that somehow we develop these coping mechanisms that we're trying to survive with that don't actually bring us the love and connection and belonging and cooperation and valuing that we all deserve, we all need and we all deserve.

Speaker 2: 5:25

And the same thing is happening in our country that there's an environment that's created by people in power, whether it's the people in power in the business you work in or the school you go to, or the place of worship you attend, or the government on a local or state or national level, there are people in power who are acting out those same abusive dynamics on the people that depend on them and that they have control over, with terrible results. And that's part of the way to start to understand what's going on in our country that these abuse dynamics, these dysfunctional abuse, discriminatory dynamics that are coming from the top down as well as from the bottom up in many families, that are dysfunctional, is putting our whole society at risk, and there's a lot to say about that and I can tell you more, but please ask any questions that you know I was going to actually ask you, like, what is your take on that?

Speaker 1: 6:25

Like whether the dynamics you're seeing from the top down but bottom up yeah, maybe I'm not fully seeing from a therapist point of view.

Speaker 2: 6:33

Right. And then I think many people don't see, not because you're blind or ignorant, but because we're not taught this like. We need this psychological education to understand what's happening to us. So there's some big ones, and I'll start with one of the really big ones that I emphasize in my book, and that is that in general and of course there are exceptions to every rule, right, I know, not everybody fits a certain mold of a pattern of behavior, but in general, when people are harmed, when they're abused or discriminated against or their bodies are violated or they're put down and made to feel small and unlovable and unwanted by the people that they depend on and the people that have power over them. So here I'm going to talk about an individual family where abuse takes place, and let me just say that from my experience as a therapist and I think many, many therapists could tell you the same thing abuse and neglect on emotional, physical and sexual levels in our country is epidemic. There are many, many people who are being hurt and violated in their own homes by their mentally unwell caregivers and parents. So when that happens to a person, if there's no rescue from the abuse and if there's no treatment for it, even if a person manages to escape from it. There are two very likely outcomes for people and again, not everybody fits this mold, but many, many people do. And these are some of the people that I have seen over the years in therapy and worked with good people, you know people who mean well, people who are really trying to survive the best they can.

Speaker 2: 8:24

But the two main outcomes are either you have learned to give up and become passive because resisting the abuser or the abuse has not worked, that you're not strong enough to resist what's happening to you, or resistance might even bring further abuse and punishment or alienation. So some people become very passive and it's called learned helplessness. That's a psychological term and that dynamic will follow many people out into adulthood, even when they leave home. That learning is so deep and so profound that they have that mindset, that coping mechanism of sort of like freeze and hope the danger will pass, rather than being able to summon up any appropriate means of protecting themselves, whether it's from physical assault or emotional assault or for just being misused and exploited by other people.

Speaker 2: 9:26

The other main outcome is the opposite that there are many people in abusive, neglectful homes who will do anything in their power not to be helpless, and they tend to fall into the category of those who identify with the aggressor and they take on the role model of the people who have hurt them and they become the hurters themselves and in some way you could say they become aggressively dominating. And the other half of people become passive and dominatable, they're submissive. And so what happens psychologically and of course we see this all the time is that they attract each other. The dominator is attracted to someone who will submit and the person who submits is attracted to someone who dominate them because that's what they know.

Speaker 2: 10:23

And this is a very, very dangerous dynamic in an individual home because it will perpetuate abuse that you have someone who becomes dominating and you have a partner who can't stand up to them and protect themselves and or their children, and we see this all the time and you read stories about it, the horrific stories of that, all the time in the news and on a societal level.

Speaker 2: 10:49

What it means is that you have, without an interruption and abuse, then you have more and more people who fit these two categories, if there's no help and there's no rescue, and so if that kind of abuse and neglect is coming down from the top, from the highest levels of authority in our country, where certain people are deprived of resources, they're deprived of justice, they're deprived of equal opportunity, and then you will have more and more people who will fit those two role models One becomes passive and one becomes aggressive, and you just have this escalation and, unfortunately, then you have a setup for the people who have identified with the aggressor to look for positions of authority in which they can dominate, and sometimes they run for office, and that's really frightening.

Speaker 1: 11:51

It is. It really is. So is it? Are we talking more like mayor level, congress level or presidential level? Or are we talking like this is worldwide, not just America?

Speaker 2: 12:08

Well, absolutely worldwide, but I talk about America because this is the country I'm familiar with, because I live here and I don't have the knowledge to talk about other countries, but clearly these dynamics are going on all over the world and historically have been going on. However, we have greater weapons now to wipe out our enemies than we ever had before. So when we have leaders in power who are of the aggressive, dominating nature and from their own wounds that are unhealed, generations perhaps of unhealed wounds, then we're at serious risk of a war that no one could recover from in this day and age. And so, for me, psychology and everything that it has to offer that I'm talking about, about family dynamics, is really the missing link in what we need to pull ourselves off of that ledge. The truth is that nuclear weapons are obsolete, but we don't get that. You know that if we use them, we're done.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Right.

Speaker 2: 13:20

And yet billions of dollars of hard earned money go into their proliferation. And it would be just like and I use this analogy all the time it would be just like if an individual family spent most of their resources on an arsenal of weapons that they put in their closet instead of feeding their children or getting them medical care or sending them for a good education. We'd say they were disturbed.

Speaker 1: 13:47

Right.

Speaker 2: 13:47

But we're doing that as a country.

Speaker 1: 13:53

Yeah, I think per capita per year we almost double what if we spent last year. So if it was like it's not actual numbers, let's say it's a billion dollars next year. We're doing two kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 14:05

Billions, it's billions of weapons that we should never create or use. And so to me and this is one of the many points that I make in my book, and I can't highlight them all is that that is a sign of mental unwellness. This is a mental health issue. It's not a defense issue. It's not an ideological issue. It's a mental health issue because mentally healthy people don't do this.

Speaker 1: 14:34

Right, right, right. I'm just curious, though I'm sure you go into it on your book, but I would love to hear your take. Do you think also stuff like YouTube, tiktok, instagram we're really feeding into that also.

Speaker 2: 14:49

Well, I think the whole social media thing, just like television, is a double-edged sword, and I think we all experience that. There's people like you who are doing these amazing podcasts and really trying to spread good, helpful, constructive, informative information to a general public that you personally couldn't reach on your own Right. So there are amazing uses for the technologies that we have and the social media that we have. There are certain movies and documentaries that are so amazingly informative and inspiring and that we need them. I just saw Sound of Freedom. I don't know if you saw that, but it's I've heard about it.

Speaker 1: 15:33

I never got around to see it in theater.

Speaker 2: 15:35

It's a remarkable movie, remarkable eye-opening, waking up kind of movie.

Speaker 2: 15:41

And so, for all the good, there's the shadow side, just like there's the shadow side of every human being, where our unhealed wounds play out. And I think the desire to dominate, the desire to exploit, the desire to mobilize people against one another, that all plays out in the social media too, and it is very, very of a great alarm and concern and it can be very, very destructive. And it's sort of like, as a population, are we going to eventually, if not now, advocate for the right use and I don't mean by that like there's a good and evil kind of thing, but the right use of the technologies we have, in the sense that do they further life? Do they further community? Do they further acceptance and love and valuing and peaceful conflict resolution? Do they further cooperation? Because if there's one thing we need to survive here on the planet Earth, it's coming together to solve our problems, and I think there's so many, but look at climate change. Are we going to come together to try to figure this out before it's too late?

Speaker 1: 17:06

Yeah, these are all psychological issues.

Speaker 2: 17:09

This is what psychology addresses. It addresses the hurt between people, the divide between people, the brokenness of relationship and its aftermath.

Speaker 1: 17:23

It's amazing Now that you say it. I've always considered psychology as one thing, but kind of politics I guess it's involved a little bit, but not as deep as you're saying it is, and it's interesting where it's like huh, it's a good point, because I had a guest back in March. He's like global warming is not real. He's like it's not real whatsoever. I'm like why I said I live in California. Why is it getting hot almost one degree Fahrenheit every year since 08? We're hitting 120s in Burama and that's not normal at all.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Right, good thing and I talk about the different dynamics that you find in dysfunctional and abusive families and neglectful families, and that's one of the dynamics is outright denial of the facts that you see before you. I've had clients, I've had many, many clients over the years who have been terribly abused in their families of origin, and one message among many that I've heard more than once is the abuser saying to the child we're the only people who love you. No one will ever love you the way that we do, and it's obviously patently untrue. But people get indoctrinated into believing things that are untrue. I didn't hit you that hard. The child might be bleeding, but the abuser says I didn't hit you that hard, stop crying. You're making a big deal out of nothing.

Speaker 2: 19:02

And these things happen. And these things happen on a societal level that people are withheld from. They can't earn a living wage, they can't live, they can't find a place that they can afford to live in that isn't rat infested or cockroach infested, and then they're told that they're lazy or that they're deficient or they're inferior. Because if you really pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, you could make it Not true, absolutely not true. And again, people that break that mold.

Speaker 1: 19:37

But we have yeah, there's always the outliers, the mavericks, but those are like few and far between. It's not anything you can base a study on. But yeah, it's true, a lot of people like I've been chatting with my girlfriend and one of my friends also and I'm both saying like how are we ever going to afford a house without having to buy a five room apart like a house and then rent out four of them to four other families just to barely get by? But like how are we supposed to do stuff anymore?

Speaker 2: 20:08

Right and I think you know. And then we look at homeless people and we say you know, there's just this sort of stigma against homeless people when the family dynamic of the family of America is creating massive homelessness. And that's one of the big points of my book is that we have to look at the family system of the family of America and say what environment are we creating for all our family members and stop blaming them for their symptoms and look at the root causes in the whole dynamic of how the family of America is run. I'm just curious Go ahead, no, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 20:51

Oh, no, I was just going to say, I'm just curious. Now a big one I hear and I'm not going to like say he's right or right, but right or wrong it's Adam Corolla is saying that most of our problems in America are because there's no good staple fathers in the house. Do you see that? Or is there a bigger, more political dynamic to that?

Speaker 2: 21:10

That was just a simplification, a bigger dynamic to that.

Speaker 1: 21:14

I mean I would love to hear it then.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Say, that's a symptom and of course, our symptoms, if they're not treated, become causes. So I think that's an important thing to know. If you have an infection and you don't treat it, it's going to create more symptoms in your body and it could kill you. But what caused the infection is what needs to be treated, right. So it's the same with our psyches. It's like, yeah, there are a lot of fathers who are not taking care of their children or abandoning their families or not paying child support or not being involved or whatever.

Speaker 2: 21:52

But what has the family of America been teaching young men? I mean, this is a huge issue that I can't address here, but I think there's. There's a whole list of things that are going on in our lives and what have we taught about family? Family is actually the bedrock of everyone's well-being and to the extent that our families are not supported, that people can't make a living wage, that they're discriminated against, you know there's a whole list of ills that there's no lot of injustice, these things are all brought together, given those burdens too at a young age.

Speaker 2: 22:40

What happens to the boys? What happens to the girls? Different things sometimes. I mean because of the role models. There's so much discrimination against women in our society still, it's just mind boggling. And yet every person has a mother. And if their mother isn't treated well and isn't respected by the men in the family, what happens to the role model for women? What happens to the role model for men of how they treat women, of how they see women, of what they believe about women? And so, as a society, these are so many of the deep things that need to be healed. So the uninvolved fathers are the tip of a big iceberg, if that makes sense, and there's so much about that. But you know, let you chime in there.

Speaker 1: 23:28

Thank you, I know I was just I wanted to type chime in on the, the female dynamic. That's a big one, I hear, but Now this is from the male point of view and this is where you can always correct me and I love it when you do. It seemed like the women are more Selfish and more they're not looking out for their man. It's more what can I get from myself? Kind of like a gold diggers mindset. Not all, obviously the arc, especially when I was like Dating before I'm a current, current girlfriend, it was all of them right oh, I get a free dinner off of him because the man has to pay, but I don't have to put up anything for him because I'm a woman. Mm-hmm, that's. That's more where I'm trying to get at like. But it probably reason that's men are very standoff to women because like, well, we're just all we are money to you, why should we even care about you? Kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Well, it's probably some one slice of the whole pie that you're talking about, but I guess what I would say as a big picture image around, what you're talking about is that Historically, women have been subservient to men in many, many cultures and had less rights than men in many, many and in many places around the world still do. In many places in the world, women have no rights. So I think what happens is and I don't think that's true in America, I don't think that the imbalance of power is as great as it is in some countries where women just are, they're the, they're the possession of their, their husband, certainly not that. But but I think what happens on a psychological level is, when people are oppressed and they gain some freedom, they tend to swing very far in the opposite direction. So if it couldn't be about me at all, now maybe it's going to be all about me. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2: 25:28

It's sort of like what you, you often see in countries where a people has been repressed and then they finally gain power and they become the oppressor instead of, you know, finding that middle Ground and I think that's the challenge, whether it's between male and male and female. In our country they're rich in the poor. You know all the structures is to find is to stop this intense pendulum swing between extremes, which is what is a lot of the rhetoric in our country is about today, and find a middle ground which is honoring both, honoring the feminine and honoring the masculine and Hopefully creating role models of relationship between men and women, whether it's in individual Relationships or how men and women are treated on, you know, on the national stage for everybody to see and witness and Be affected by. To find that balance. And right now we have so much polarization that is, that huge pendulum swing is between extremes that we have to find a middle. So I'm not excusing anyone from being selfish or self-centered, but I think in the big picture, psychologically we just want to understand it's a symptom of Of an extreme sort of trying to find its middle and not having found it.

Speaker 2: 26:49

Because I think, I think and you tell me from the man's Perspective. I'd be really curious to know what your view is I think we all want the same thing, even if we have a different hormones and different biochemistry and some differences between being male and female. I think we all want to feel valued, we all want to feel loved, we all want to belong. We all want to feel like we make a difference in somebody else's life and that we make, and that they make a difference in ours. So I think you know what. What you're talking about is symptomatic of the great divides that have been In place for many, many generations between men and women that haven't found their balance. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1: 27:36

No, I 100% agree. That was actually a big one me my girlfriend had we we've been, we were going for blood for the other day like she was cutting emotionally, cutting me up. I was emotionally cutting her up, we were both throwing things. And then eventually, I like Once the heated battle was over and we actually met each other in person, I told her. I said I just want to be heard and respected and just I said I don't feel hurt anymore, I don't feel respected, and it's like she put the same for me. But I'm like then how am I doing it wrong? Like not in a bad way, like what?

Speaker 2: 28:08

yeah, how can?

Speaker 1: 28:09

I learn. How can I do it in a way that you receive it better, right, and then that she has same thing. And I agree 100% what you said earlier. It's like a Lot of us men don't feel like we're heard. We're, just like I said, like a free meal, an emotional punching bag for most, not all, and as I. Why should we care about your feminine energy when you don't even care about us? Kind of thing, right.

Speaker 2: 28:34

And another big piece of that, and it's great that you can just illustrate that, that we're working this out in our lives. Nobody me and my husband we don't have it perfectly down either. We get into it and we come back and and what you did is is really the key, and that is that you know we're gonna have conflict. Human beings are going to have conflict. We are going to bring our wounds to one another that aren't fully healed. We just will, and it's nature of being, you know, in in process. But what we, what we need, and what I think you found, and what I know that my husband and I have created over a long period of time, is that we are committed to repairing the ruptures and, matter what it takes, we will come back together, and that's what I want to see in our country.

Speaker 2: 29:25

We have ruptures, we have great divides, we have huge differences of opinion, but we it's so extreme that people aren't listening to each other at all and they don't even see that there's a need to listen to each other. It's more like a desire to foist your opinion and your beliefs on other people and force them to adhere. And what we need and these this is the basis of really good, like couples therapy or family therapy is to create an environment when each person learns how to listen with respect and empathy for the other person's point of view. And let me tell you I Can say that easily it is really hard to do. When you're activated, when you're upset, when you're hurt, when you're angry, when you're afraid, it is really hard to do and it takes great courage and patience and strength to actually do that with another human being. And yet this is what we need in our country. We need our leaders to be willing to sit down at the table and actually listen to one another with respect and be committed to some kind of resolution that's peaceful.

Speaker 1: 30:37

I do so. It was something you hinted on but never fully went into details. Do you think the divide from the over swinging is part of the problem? Like I'm not saying this is the cause or anything, but like the LGBTQ, ai, whatever else now they are on, they're super loud, but I have a lot of gay friends who are like we don't like them, they're too loud, they're we're getting too much attention now kind of thing. Like we didn't want this.

Speaker 1: 31:02

Do you think it's stuff like that that's causing it? Or even the people within the, the community, like that? Or like getting a lot of unnecessary attention? I have a black friend I used to Person of color, whatever the politically correct way of saying it. He even told me he's like I hate BLM. He's like I have so much unnecessary attention now, like I feel like anything I do, even if it's a microwave burrito, like everyone has to stare. He's like, don't look at me, I'm not like a circus freak kind of thing. So I think, do you think that's part of the symptoms or is that the after effect of the pendulum swings?

Speaker 2: 31:40

I think there's many causes, so you probably can't pin it on any one thing, but it certainly could be part of the pendulum swing. I think that other causes are that people are just so wounded. Many people who are really wounded need Attention somehow, so they're the loudest voice in the room or they're the most extreme in their behavior, or they, you know, like. You know, you see that in high school, with kids who start dressing all in black and whatever, and it can be for many reasons. Maybe they're really being hurt at home, maybe they just don't have any attention anywhere. That's positive, so some people will go in that direction. But I think I think there's other factors involved here. So I wouldn't say that it it comes from any one source.

Speaker 2: 32:26

But I think another big thing is that we have a long way to go in working out how a woman Can successfully Embrace her masculine side and how a man can successfully Embrace his feminine side in a way that is societally affirmed, because that is actually what we need to heal.

Speaker 2: 32:51

You know, women are not just whatever and men are not just we're. We're different, we may be different and, of course, everybody's different with. There's no one thing that a woman is and one thing that a man is. But. But psychological health often can be seen through a Healthy balance of both energies, no matter what body you're in, and so I think some of the extremes are pointing to that. We have no way to do that yet in our society there are people who are working on that and or a voice of that, but societally I think that the divide between men and women, or the patriarchy and the whatever, is Still something that really needs a lot of healing and a lot of attention, and then there may be other factors with that. You know that. I don't know, because I'm not that as familiar with that community as you might be.

Speaker 1: 33:48

Oh, I know. I just I know of them because when I went to college Okay, I didn't slow sides, fun story, I want to do theater, lighting and sound and I was like, oh, I'll do it, because I don't have to go take English, I still get a college degree.

Speaker 2: 34:01

I.

Speaker 1: 34:03

Was only straight guy there. It was fun though, because I can make a very convincing Lispy, mincey, fairy kind of guy, and some of the gay men were kind of like oh, my kind of thing. But but that was a big one, they told me is like we don't feel hurt other than we here, like we don't feel safe unless we're here, kind of thing, and they're like why are you here?

Speaker 2: 34:27

I just wanted an easy way. Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 34:29

No, sorry, they're like. Why are you here, though? I'm like, I just wanted an easy college degree.

Speaker 2: 34:33

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Got a. Thing.

Speaker 2: 34:36

Yeah, and I think I think what you said, though, is like you know all people congregating together for support, and so that can create an extreme all by itself. There are just so many different psychological factors, or you know things, that we don't know each person you know Someone may, oh, kind of Turn up. Sorry about that. It's. There's just so many different factors. You know and we don't know what comes from abuse, what comes from neglect, what comes from Deficient role models, what comes from Genuinely somebody feeling like they were born into the wrong body and they're really trying to figure out how to live. We just don't know, yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:22

It's true, the mind is complicated and we're still even with AI. We don't even fully understand it. I think. I am curious, though, for one thing for you Do you think, from a psychiatrist point of view, but also from your you as yourself, what is some of the things we could do to start healing the divide? Is it like I'm not trying to incorporate the patriarchy, but like going to church more, doing like picnic tachy, making your neighbor a good fruitcake, kind of thing, is it? What are some of the things that we could start doing to, yeah, at least unite people?

Speaker 1: 35:59

maybe not be on the same side but at least you nine wonder one thing in a positive, productive way.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Yeah, I mean, I think some of it comes down to how we just treat people on a daily basis, going out of your way to be friendly to a service person, being nice to the person on the phone that you don't really want to talk to or you need to hang up on because you don't want to buy with or selling, but you could still be pleasant to them? Yeah, and Definitely. You know, one of the things I did I did a fair amount of research when I was writing my book, and one of the things that that I discovered in my research was that there are statistics on volunteerism in America and Way. More than half of Americans volunteer somewhere, volunteer their time, volunteer service, volunteer money To help their neighbors, people in prisons, under, you know, people in the inner city. There's an incredible amount of generosity already going on in our country and it's not hitting the news. You know. These are the role models we need to see and hear, that our kids need to see and hear that. Our kids need to see and hear that there's something anybody can do. They can, you know, be part of a trash pickup, bring meals to disabled people, feed homeless. There, you know, there's. There's endless numbers of ways that people can help their neighbors.

Speaker 2: 37:28

You don't have to be a psychotherapist to help people. Love is what heals love and care. That's the bottom line of what heals, and I say this over and over again because I see this over and over again. I've seen it in my own life and I see it as a psychotherapist, that the greatest injuries that people suffer from Are the injuries to love and belonging that they suffered growing up somewhere at some point in their life, often in their family of origin, and so their greatest injuries come from abuse and neglect on some level from other human beings, and they can be healed by love and care, empathy, good boundaries and peaceful conflict resolution by other human beings, and we can all be that. We can all be that.

Speaker 1: 38:18

That's beautiful. I mean, I've always I was just raised by my parents like, if you see someone on the street, like I do it when I can. Sometimes I do a pool route now. So I got to like hustle, but whenever I have time A couple days ago, like I saw homeless guy, I literally bought him an end up burger because this is, I'm hungry, can I get money just for food? I promise no drugs, kind of thing. And I'm like, wow, I'll just, I'll just go get him a burger, kind of thing, beautiful. And he just like literally stopped there. And then it was so funny. This lady rolls up and it's like this and then hands him a 20 and he's like, no, I don't want your money now, like he like I'm good, kind of thing, like you're doing out of pity. I snatched it from her and said, okay, just take this or you can get a meal later on, kind of thing. He's like, oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 39:05

Wow, wow, beautiful, and we can all do those kinds of things. I mean it really. You don't have to be a therapist. You know, deeply entrenched in a healing modality, and many people really need that for sure. And if some of our billions of dollars and we put them toward helping people heal and building stronger, more viable communities, we wouldn't have some of the mental health issues that we have today. We wouldn't. We would not have the mass shootings that we have. If people were cared for, we would not.

Speaker 1: 39:37

Yeah, it's sad to say, especially the mass shootings. I stopped listening to news for that reason, because I'm like it almost seems like it's every other day it's happening. It is. I was my old high school buddy because he said what do you think because I'm very creative in the right stories, he said what do you think is the like, the root of the story, the cause of it all, mike, kids not getting hugged? Essentially it's the kids don't Feel like they're loved by anyone, even their protectors or their enemies. So it's like, well, if I'm, if I'm in pain, I said it's a very selfish way of the mind works, but it's like if I'm in pain, I'm going to hurt them. I feel like I'm being stabbed and shot every day, so I'm gonna stab and shoot them Literally.

Speaker 1: 40:21

I said when it could have been fixed with I'm proud of you boy. Take him to the ball game, go fishing, even if he doesn't like fishing. He or she doesn't like fishing. Just take him. It's like at least someone cared enough to take their time and resource to bring me over here, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 40:34

I said yeah yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 40:36

I don't say, but I don't know how to spread that message to the people who actually need to hear it, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Yeah, I mean you're spreading it now. You're spreading it to lots of people, and there are people who are out there. Actually, that's what they're doing. They're being a big brother or a big sister, or they're starting a program for underprivileged youth or Children who are come from divorced homes, who have lost a parent, or you know. They're there and we need every one of them, you and I and everybody out there. We can't do it all. You can do what you can do, I can do what I can do, and we need each other because we all have so many gifts To offer. And the more a person does their own healing work, the less they are likely to project, project their shadow onto other people and create this kind of divisiveness. And the more I see that the more people heal, the more they want to be of service, whether it's just, you know, being a better parent or a better neighbor, or they want to start some huge program, or they want to volunteer somewhere. It doesn't matter what scale, it all counts.

Speaker 1: 41:43

Yeah, I agree. I mean it's not humans directly, but like well, humans were involved. Where I live there's a big hill behind me and then there's a park that goes into the hills, divided by this big like like drain thing that goes to the ocean. This Asian couple just dropped off a 20 year old so-called a tortoise. In the cold of winter I'd left it there and I'm like that's gonna be easy coyote food tonight. I'm like that poor thing, it's a tortoise that lives like 300 years. That's still an infant for tortoise years kind of thing. So I, literally in my broken jinky wheelbarrow I ran over, picked up the 50 pound heifer, put it in there. And one of my neighbors I haven't talked to her other than in that moment she's like oh so, and so has tortoises. Drop them off there, he'll figure out what to do with it.

Speaker 2: 42:35

Wow.

Speaker 1: 42:36

Kind of thing so.

Speaker 2: 42:37

I dropped him off.

Speaker 1: 42:38

So I dropped him off and then he called like a. So he had like ground turtles, not the like the aquatic ones, but it like they bury and they like stays for like half the year. This was an actual tortoise that stays awake all year, so it destroyed his garden. Funny thing is this is before prop 64 and California passed, so it ate all his weed too. Portorto's turtle was tripping, but yeah. But he even said he's like, yeah, if it wasn't for you that, yeah, he's like, I've been seeing a lot of coyotes out there and this would. It was like almost 40 degrees we hit that night, so if he stayed out, that tortoise would have been done.

Speaker 2: 43:18

Right.

Speaker 1: 43:19

Right. But like then that's where he got the tortoise to say place. But then I still talked to him kind of thing and he's like yeah, he's like I still think about you, like you save that 50 pound thing, like you didn't have to. I'm like it didn't deserve that though.

Speaker 2: 43:34

Right and I think you know it.

Speaker 2: 43:36

Just I want to say this it's not exactly related to what you're saying, but it's sort of taking on.

Speaker 2: 43:41

What you're saying is that I think part of what needs such reform in our whole culture is to help parents who mistreat their children rather than just see them as criminals, because I think people are afraid to report because once the state and the system gets involved, children end up in often end up in horrible foster care systems or parents and yeah, and they're just traumatized by the system, rather than if we had a society, a family of America that was devoted to treating as many people as are treatable and some people we don't know how to treat, we really don't.

Speaker 2: 44:21

There are people who are so injured that they just have to be restrained because we do not have the psychological or whatever the understanding is to rehabilitate them. But there are many people who, if they were given the opportunity to say yes, I beat my kid, I was beaten, I don't know any other way. I have a horrible reaction pattern. I just blow up and I do what my father or my mother did to me. There are many people who are actually treatable and that should be our focus Bring people back, break the cycle of abuse and families, rather than continue this perpetration, which is locking people up and seeing them as horrible human beings, which they're not. They're acting out their own traumas.

Speaker 1: 45:11

Yeah, no, it's true, the being in that system would be the only white kid in pretty much Hispanic campus. I joke about it now. But it's kind of like my coping mechanism. I did not realize how accurate Latinas are with their sandals or where they throw it and how it hurts, kind of thing. And it's not just the physical hurts, the psychological attack too, whether they realize that part or not.

Speaker 1: 45:38

But I was walking in one of my buddy's house and she shows like oh, something like me, I'm gonna get you and throw us a sandal and I do martial arts. I just went what, where does this come from? Apparently, that's really bad if you catch the sample, kind of thing. So and he's like my mom, he didn't know the rules, like he literally is jumping in front and she's like it's set, she makes me a nice taco Because she's like, thank you, like she's like. I realized after I threw it I made a mistake. I was like I just I played baseball and I do martial arts. I just catch things that move, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 46:14

Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, you experienced real discrimination. And you know, and I've heard stories from many, many clients about their history of discrimination and it's just, it's heartbreaking A little it is, you know? Black child told why can't you have blonde hair? What's wrong with your hair? Born with this hair, you know right.

Speaker 1: 46:40

Yeah, wow, that, like that was a little like dagger in my heart on that one. But yeah, it is. It's the amount of bullying to that happens. I, at least from my point of view, being a survivor of school yard bullying and the first start of cyber bullying Mm, hmm, it's so painful, but it's not a physical pain. That's right. But if but it's one of those, it's like it's, they're attacking small things like mine is my teeth. They're better now because I'm straightening them out, but they, they did. They look gnarled, they look like cane, like a werewolf kind of teeth Like, oh, you're a monster. Oh, you're going to bite someone's throat. Oh, like, stay back from him, he's going to hurt you, kind of thing. And I, oh, you didn't even want to open your mouth, right, I didn't. I didn't want to talk, I didn't want to say anything.

Speaker 2: 47:36

Like.

Speaker 1: 47:36

I learned to be a ventriloquist. I could still talk with my mouth closed like this, so you can hear me, but you can't see my teeth.

Speaker 2: 47:43

Wow, wow, wow. And you know this is happening to people all over the world, all over our country children who are just told from the very beginning that they're not okay, there's something wrong with them and it's bad, and that means that they should be rejected, they should be scorned, they should be treated poorly. And you're absolutely right. You do not have to be physically violated to experience just as much pain as a physical violation will cause. Absolutely Mental and emotional pain is excruciating and it has lasting effects on people if they can't find a safe place to be and a healing environment, a healthy environment or a loving, peaceful environment to be in. And many, many, many people can't find that it's not available to them. So what do we imagine happens to them? We just look at them and tell them pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Speaker 1: 48:45

Yeah, that didn't work for me. I mean, at six or eight years old it was the 90s when this happened, but I don't know if that really is an excuse or not but I was exhibiting ADHD, tapping my foot, like do this, like I was, I did not want to sit still clicking my pen. Teachers like you need to put them on something, sedate him. He's like, he's too much, he's bipolar, kind of thing. I remember this specifically. I remember walking out and seeing a bird fly right past my face. In there, like a, like a poetic way, I walk a little bit I'm still young and I look down and I see a worm dying in front of me. I'm like, oh, that kind of thing. And then it go down somewhere and I see a kid like teasing a girl and pulling her hair and I get went from sad, happy, sad to angry and they're like, oh, he's bipolar, put them on drugs.

Speaker 2: 49:35

And did they put you on drugs?

Speaker 1: 49:37

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:40

Wow.

Speaker 2: 49:41

And that's this is ignorance. This is psychological ignorance and it really it's tragic for people like yourself who get treated and seen that way, and this is one of the reasons one of the many reasons why I wrote my book is because I think we're in desperate need of psychological education. The average man on the street does not know the things that I learned as a psychotherapist and as a client myself. Not because the average man on the street is is a lesser human being, but because this information is not widespread. We should be teaching psychology and family dynamics and healthy family dynamics and abuse dynamics in our school system. It should be part of our education.

Speaker 1: 50:27

But that doesn't help the bottom line of corporations, because if you're that broken you're seeking material needs to fill a void. It almost does seem like it incentivize to keep us broken because profits are better for corporations.

Speaker 2: 50:40

Well, I think that's one of the problems with an abusive system is that there are tremendous rewards for holding on to power, and that's what we're seeing all over the country in many, many different venues. And I don't think the things that I'm talking about are going to change overnight. I don't think they can change overnight, but I do believe they can change and I believe that education and healing from the bottom up if we all do, you know as many people do their own work and make their own contribution there are people who are running their businesses differently now. There are people who are running their big corporations on models that are sustainable, that are humane, that are treat people more as equal and valuable human beings and not just replaceable commodities and a huge chain of production. And these models can be proliferated, they can be taught, they can be.

Speaker 2: 51:35

You know, there's we have. We have to capitalize on what we have. But, yes, I don't think I think the incentive for holding on to power inappropriately and not not taking in the impact of hurt that so many people are suffer as a result of that imbalance of power is part of the problem. That needs to just keep coming to light and coming to light and coming to light until more and more people are operating on a different system. That's why it'll take time.

Speaker 1: 52:06

Oh, it will. I mean I've seen quick turnaround. I'm going to say, before I even start that story, how long do I got you?

Speaker 2: 52:13

till. I'm good. So you just tell me when I don't have something right after this.

Speaker 1: 52:19

So okay, that's what I was worried about.

Speaker 1: 52:22

No no, no. So I worked security in California. There's this farm area called like Chino, uh huh, stinky Like. I worked there for almost two years and I I the gate I was at I was essentially an underpaid clerk. I receive all these truckers, receive all the traumas and jokes and then I throw it back at them because they're the weird kind of person. If you don't talk shit to them, they feel bad. It's a culture, right, right. But I would also watch as the employees going in. I had to watch them too.

Speaker 1: 52:59

And this dude I still remember it Neck tattoo, big old stone gate fire coming out with gates open, demon spawn coming out and flying. Wow, he had all these like SS cobwebs, like clearly he's a hurt person kind of thing, right, right. He literally said to his one buddy that drove him out. He said man, I wish we got in that car crash, that we passed, that way I could break my legs and not be here for one day and stay home for six months and stay here. We'll call him Chuck. I don't really know who the hell he is, but we'll call him Chuck.

Speaker 1: 53:33

And then literally a big wig comes by and is like hey, josh, you're a really observing kid. I'm like 26, by the way, I'm like I'm 26. Like I'm not a kid. He's like you're younger than me, you're a kid kind of thing. I'm like God. He said what's wrong with this warehouse? This is my baby, this is the one that got me to VP of the region. I said well, you've been in your ivory tower too long. He's like what do you mean? I'm like you don't talk to employees. I said that guy with the demon spawn and the thing he's like yeah, chuck, I'm like yeah. He literally said he wished you got in a car crash, broke his leg and stayed home for six months on, paid, then come one day for you, wow. And he looked and he's like. I said I'm no expert, but that's a morality problem, dude, you're treating him like a number. They're feeling it and they rather be a number that goes home than work for you.

Speaker 1: 54:21

I said, dude, the easiest way I know, because I've done this before can you afford like 500 bucks? Like first prize winner gets 150, two underneath is like 200 bucks and then like 50, whatever divides out to like $500. He's like, yeah, like it's sad to say, for a debut worker, 100 bucks is game changing. I'm like that's what's? 500 bucks out of your personal pocket? He's like, oh, that's two steak dinners. I'm like I don't know where you go, but I want to try that place out, kind of thing Two steak dinners for 500 bucks. So I told him, I said just do games. We're humans, we love games, even if they're not competitive.

Speaker 1: 55:01

The fact is the game going on though, like the whole energy shifts. Even the procrastinators are like okay, well, maybe there's a chance I can get 50 bucks if I up a little kind of thing Plus. And I said and then said it's not hard, use the company quarter year, as it doesn't matter. Buy the best taco guy or gal. So lately the taco gals are better because they actually make their food with love and just spoil them. Pay them their whole lunch instead of unpaid. Pay them their lunch, give them because it is a warehouse for like board games and stuff. I said give them the old board games. You had to like throw off the. You couldn't ship them because they were damaged in transport. Give them the board games. They don't care if it's damaged. They can take their new Hasbro toy that didn't even come out yet and be like look, look, my boss gave me this new monopoly game. Like it's not even out yet. Let's play a kind of thing. Yeah, so beautiful.

Speaker 2: 55:55

So beautiful.

Speaker 1: 55:57

He did it. He did it, he did it and in one month. Let's just say, for numbers sake, he was doing 200,000 packages in one day and one month of doing that, implementing it, doing it correctly. I just gave him that knowledge. By the way, I never followed up with him. He went from 200,000 packages a day to 1 million plus.

Speaker 2: 56:19

So let me just tell you that story is so beautiful and it's so fascinating that when you treat people better, they treat you better. We bring out the potential in people. Look at that, look at what you did. You changed his life and the ripple effect was you changed the life of all of his workers. You better believe they took that home with them every night when they left work. So that changed the life of all their children and their families and their friends and all the people around them. And this is the power that one person can have.

Speaker 2: 56:58

We can make a difference. That is so beautiful. I'm so happy that you shared that story.

Speaker 1: 57:04

I'm very proud of that one and the part that warms my heart that I never get around to is so. He did the little like taco person for them in between, but he did a full feast. He hired the taco lady, her nephew and her brother kind of thing. They had like the whole thing. It was like a $4,000 or $5,000 setup for everything. They all waited until I came to get food.

Speaker 2: 57:29

Oh, that is so beautiful. That is so beautiful and now you're sharing this story with all your listeners. Who knows who's going to take this ball and run with it? So beautiful, so powerful.

Speaker 1: 57:43

And that's where they all said it to me when they did the raffles. One of them I never officially won the raffle, but essentially it was, I guess, because of the extra $100, he was able to buy his daughter like her special Barbie that he could never afford. She's so happy now that she has her special Barbie. It's funny now like the Barbie movie came out. This was long before it. But he said pick any toy you want. He's like this is what I can give you kind of thing. You made my daughter's life better. I want to give you something. And I said, well, I've never tried that Monopoly Star Wars one over there. He's like I want that one for Josh. The lady came over like all of them, like any leftovers. They gave me like 15 toys to go home with. I had to cut a GI Joe. I lost it. But I was like, oh my God, I haven't had one of these in ages.

Speaker 2: 58:31

Oh, this is a beautiful, beautiful story. And again I just want to reiterate you don't have to have any special training, you don't have to have a lot of money, you don't have to have anything to do what you did, except the desire to share love and humanity with other people.

Speaker 1: 58:51

Well, and the the wild part is because I was just a security guard. So all the the crazy part is all the truckers started memorizing my days and times. They would only come to the warehouse when I was there.

Speaker 2: 59:04

Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 59:06

Because I could get in and out quickly. But also the managers of all the other warehouses knew my extension, although I'm sitting here going like how do you know this? Because, like I don't know your extension, how do you know who I am? But they all were asking me, like what did you do to make warehouse number six the top dog, when it was the laughing stock of the whole warehouse yard? And I would just tell them, like it's literally just treating like a human. I gave them the basics. So suddenly that like that whole I don't know if they're still doing it because they're all obviously there's new managers and all that and they come in with their agenda, but for that time, while I was there, that whole place was pumping like crazy.

Speaker 2: 59:45

I want to highlight something that you did, because it's such a big part of what I'm talking about, and that is that you saw all those people who are suffering in those kind of work conditions as worthy human beings who have an essence that's worth treating humanely and well, and more than well.

Speaker 2: 1:00:05

And I think that that is certainly one of the things I learned in a very different way being a psychotherapist that underneath everybody's symptoms, underneath their fear, underneath their hurt, underneath their pain, underneath the ways they've acted out and hurt other people, there is this essential human being that is worthy and needs love, desires love and is worthy of love and care and good treatment. And when you see people that way, when you speak to that in people, when you see that and they get that communication from you, that you see them as a worthwhile human being who is equal and worthy, it changes how they feel about themselves. And you communicated that so powerfully to the owner or the boss or whoever that man was, and then he was able to communicate that through his actions to his workers because you showed him the way, because you saw those people that way, and this is one of the most powerful gifts we can give another human being. It really is.

Speaker 1: 1:01:15

So the fun cherry on top is he offered me money and I was like I don't need money for this. And then afterwards I'm seeing here going I should have taken that check kind of thing. But he was like name your price. I didn't know how much money because. So essentially one of the ladies in office told me for math sake, one package is $1. So he said you went from 200,000 a day to a million a day and I said I only asked for 10,000. She's like honey, you could have easily asked for a million and he would have given it to you.

Speaker 1: 1:01:50

I was like damn, I should have taken that check, kind of thing. But he even told me he's like thank you, he's like I would not have. He's like I used to be that boss, the one that you were talking about, the one that was there. But he's like you're right, it's when you said you're in your ivory tower too long you forgot. He's like that's what hit me and that's why I did what you said. I said I told I just joked him because I was.

Speaker 1: 1:02:15

I was actually on like some heavy meds back then. Like it was the kind of like I couldn't sleep during the night but I slept during the day. But then if I took like it was weird, like I would sleep drive home and then like halfway it was like a 30 mile drive and suddenly halfway through I met the mountains. I'm like, oh crap, I was asleep the whole time, kind of thing. So I told him like oh, you asked a drugged out confluent tick of a security guard for help. He's like he said, in play we like, but those are the best ones because they have no filter, wow, Wow. But yeah, it was one of those, though, the way he said he's like you look out for others. So he's like it's amazing how you look out for others, cause he and that's that's where he pointed out the truckers. He's like I have guys that used to run nights that will only run during your shift. Now he's like and these guys are used to night shift and they're willing to break it so they can get in with you.

Speaker 2: 1:03:08

Wow, wow. I mean really again. I just want to say the power that one person can have to change the lives of so many others. We just don't know, and we all have that in some other, in our own individual ways. And you were just being yourself, I was, you're just being yourself. That's so beautiful, it's so inspiring. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:31

Yeah, now is there anything in particular I missed that you would like to continue on or talk about with your book? That, like I said, like I might have missed, that's important to you.

Speaker 2: 1:03:44

But well, I think we've talked about a lot, so I feel complete with that. There's always more to talk about because I have many different things that I've talked about. But I would really just love it if people would buy my book when it comes out. I have a publisher now and it I love for you, yeah, super excited. Just signed a contract a couple of weeks ago and my book, I believe, will come out sometime in there, hopefully early spring, but I don't know. And I would.

Speaker 2: 1:04:16

I will definitely send you a copy and I would love to have any of your listeners go to my website, which is just my name, phyllis Levitt, p-h-y-l-l-l-i-s-l-e-a-v-i-t-tcom, and, you know, sign up for my newsletter, because then you'll be the first to know when my book is available and you can stay in touch with me. You can ask me questions, whatever, but I would just and I'm on all the social media you know, like LinkedIn, facebook and all that stuff but but really, you know, I just am so grateful to have the opportunity to talk with you about the things that matter to me so much and to find you as a like-minded person who's living what I'm talking about in the way that you live it in your life and that's very inspiring to me and I hope it's inspiring to your audience.

Speaker 1: 1:05:07

Thank you, and also it's just it's nice for me to hear like a good conversation, like we had, where it's like this is where I'm at and you say, okay, I see you, but this also I don't a lot of my shows, it's just they talk to me and then I ask questions and I appreciate that we had a genuine back and forth on this.

Speaker 2: 1:05:24

Me too. I really appreciate that a lot and I really appreciate you and what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

Thank you.