E96 – Toxic Leadership featuring Marika Messager

I’d like to begin this episode by acknowledging the land that I am learning and living on is the traditional unceded, un-surrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishnaabeg People.

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Toxic Leadership. It’s a disease that destroys teams with a ruthless efficiency, often happening before anyone even realizes the damage has been done.

So how do we avoid toxic leadership? How can we ensure we aren’t the toxic leader? And what do we do if we find ourselves and our teams in an environment where the leader is toxic in nature?

In this episode, you’ll hear from Marika Messager, a consciousness researcher, who will define toxic leadership and help us recognize when we are in a toxic team, with a toxic leader.  Marika will also offer advice to countering a toxic leader help ensure we don’t become the toxic leader.

Trench Leadership: A Podcast From the Front is humbled to have been named #7 in the Top 20 for Best Canadian Leadership-themed podcasts for 2023.

Marika’s Episode Links:
1. website: https://consciousleadership.org/
2. Podcast guest episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/conscious-leadership-create-a-conscious-world/id1590870145?i=1000604287575
3. Podcast guest episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/91-what-conscious-leadership-means-and-why-it-matters/id1497554597?i=1000533320755
4. Podcast guest episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/learning-rewired-04-conscious-leadership-with-marika/id1489528648?i=1000554100705

Marika’s Recommended Book/Movie List:
Books:
1. Conscious Capitalism- John Mackey and Raj Sisodia
2. The Intuitive Body Discovering the Wisdom of Conscious Embodiment and Aikido- Wendy Palmer

 
Videos:
1. TED Talk My Stroke of Insight- Jill Boy

Transcript

E96 - Marika

Simon: [00:00:00] 

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Trench Leadership, a podcast from the front. Toxic leadership. [00:01:00] It's a disease that destroys teams with a ruthless efficiency, often happening before anyone even realizes the damage has been done. So how do we avoid toxic leadership? How can we ensure we aren't becoming that toxic leader? And what do we do if we find ourselves and our teams in an environment where the leader is toxic in its nature? In this episode, you'll hear from Marika Messager, a consciousness researcher. I'm going to try that again.

In this episode, you'll hear from Marika Messager, a consciousness researcher who will define toxic leadership and help us recognize when we are in a toxic team. With a toxic leader, Marika will offer advice to countering a toxic leader and help us ensure that we don't become that toxic leader before we get into it.

I'd like to start with a visual representation and for myself, as always, I'm wearing my black golf shirt with the red trench leadership logo over my heart. My microphone is still black. My hair is still far too gray, and I still have black [00:02:00] rimmed glasses. My background is a screenshot of a stone wall with the trench leadership logo hanging from a sign.

The logo is white with a purple accent around it. Marika is wearing a beautiful, I think it's a green blouse. She has blonde hair. The walls in the background appear to be a beige color, and there are two beautiful portraits in the background. But now, I'm going to try and do what I always fail to do, which is be quiet and go ahead and invite the guest.

Hey Marika, how's it going out there?

Marika: Hi, Simon. It's going great. And thank you for having me with you today.

Simon: Oh, thank you so much for joining us. Folks, for those of you who aren't aware, Marika is in London, England right now. It's 8. 30 in the evening. I keep bringing this up. She's probably sick of hearing me talk about it. But I'm just so grateful that you're willing to take your evening to come and speak with us.

Thank you so much for that.

Marika: It's a pleasure.

Simon: Well, before we get into this toxic leadership episode, do you mind taking a moment of yourself and just telling us, taking a moment and telling us about your journey and [00:03:00] ultimately how we got to this point?

Marika: Sure. So, I, um, have 25 plus years of business background behind me, uh, 15 years in the financial sector, where I was a loaded corporate leader, starting as an equity analyst on equity sales, and ultimately, uh, managing 40 people as the head of equities for Europe and Middle East for a French bank. So it was early success in a very male dominated environment.

So I appreciate that we're going to talk about toxic leadership today. I have, um, experience and tools when it comes to that. Um, I was one of the, the only and first female leaders, um, promoted as a manager in my company. And at the age of 31, I made it to the seven figure, uh, mark as a. So, you know, it was, uh, I, I, I did, uh, woke up that ladder, uh, to realize 10 years ago that the [00:04:00] next rank on the ladder had no appeal to me.

Um, and I was much more interested into what it means to be human and what it means to be a leader and how we could actually influence leadership with consciousness. So that journey started 20 years ago, um, when I was 28, as I had family issues that forced me to work on myself. But it was fascinating to observe how the self transformation I was going through was making me a better manager, a better performer, a better leader.

And I started to actually mentor. Uh, 15 years ago, the people that were working with me. So through that exploration 10 years ago, I decided to, um, embark on this new chapter in my life and give myself two years to actually train and interesting methodologies that I thought had worked for me. So I trained as an integral coach, as a clinical hypnotherapist, as a yoga teacher, as a mindfulness teacher, [00:05:00] as a bioenergy teacher, and also I was initiated in two lineages of shamanism, one from the Amazon and one from Mexico.

So that gave me a very clear understanding of the system of what it means to be a human being and the understanding that we have four bodies. We have the physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual bodies and that we need to work on all those four bodies to evolve and to lead. Uh, that led me to create a unique transformation, um, IP intellectual property when it comes to conscious leadership.

So i've been doing this for the last 10 years mentoring more than you know hundreds of leaders who've been through our programs and uh We at consciousleadership. org really see that business can be a force for good and good a force for business So our mission our vision is to support individuals and organizations honor their potential and thrive So that together we build a community of conscious leaders who are really ready to lead systemic [00:06:00] change and create a better future for all.

Um, I'm also very involved in Kenya where I spend 20% of my time. Which is, uh, has become over the years, um, an incubator for systemic change, uh, where we do some research and field research on gender equality on diversity and inclusion. Uh, and we also, um, welcome some leaders in Kenya to do some leadership quests, some awaken retreats so that they can both work on their consciousness, but also put that into practice with tangible projects and impact.

Simon: Well, thank you so much for that. It's amazing the amount of different ways you've been able to live into the way that you want to be. A leader and understanding and in doing so, you're able to understand the ways you don't want to be a leader. Cause quite often my experiences have been myself and many others I've spoken with, we know we don't want to be a certain type of leader, but we don't understand what that is.

We just know we don't want to be more often than not, [00:07:00] we don't want to be like that person. And more often than not that person, and I'm not pointing at you right now, but as an imaginary thing, that person is a toxic leader. Or of some type it's usually there's some type something going wrong and it's or our perspective that something is going wrong and that's what is causing a lot of the issues and if this particular episode I really believe we're in this we're going to be speaking about toxic leadership but I really believe there is definitely a connection between toxic leadership and consciousness and understanding what is toxic uh and I'd like to know if you agree with that or not would you have any thoughts on that at all?

Marika: Yeah, I definitely agree. You know, one of the beauty of consciousness that I have observed in myself in my clients and, you know, in organization is that consciousness changes the dynamics of power, and that is really key when it comes to transforming leadership. And as one becomes more conscious and more self aware.

One can [00:08:00] understand inherited patterns that, um, actually make one behave in a toxic way. And we can start with awareness to question ourselves and eventually desire, desire to change and grow. Uh, so it starts with the awareness of what is distorted within us and what is distorted outside of us. And that consciousness, you know, I always say the first step is consciousness.

And the second one is leadership because first you need to be conscious. Of what is distorted and what is actually functioning within you. And then you have to decide what you're going to do with that bit of consciousness, right? Because some people will decide that they are going to continue to behave in a toxic way.

We have narcissists, you know, um, in this world and, and, you know, research estimates, I mean, it's difficult to estimate, but it's roughly 30% of, um, the population. And so when it comes to narcissism, and again, there is, there is a difference on where one is on the spectrum of [00:09:00] narcissism, but it's a. It's a conscious choice.

It's a conscious choice to not have ethics or to, you know, do do do bad. Um, so the leadership is really is okay. I see that I have some distortion within me. Am I going to be willing to actually become an agent of good and of positive change?

Simon: No, I couldn't agree with you anymore. And with this, I think it's a good time for us to define toxic leadership. So with, if it's okay with you, what I would like to do is I'm going to read a couple of definitions I found on the internet and, and then I'd like to hear your definition of toxic leadership and see what you think.

Does that, does that all sound okay?

Marika: Yeah, perfect.

Simon: Excellent. So the first one is at better op. com and they define toxic leadership as a type of leadership that is obstructive to, or sorry, destructive to members of a team and the overall workplace. It's a selfish abuse of power on the part of the leader under toxic leadership.

It's difficult for you and your peers to thrive. A [00:10:00] toxic leader will usually have their own self interest at heart. And that's the thing about that. It brings up is you had spoken about narcissism and that's kind of a thing. I was thinking about that is it's all about their self interest and how they can increase themselves.

Forbes describes toxic leadership as a combination of self centered attitudes, motivations, and, and behaviors that have adverse effects on subordinates, the organization and mission performance. And again, that same thing. I think that takes us back to that self interest. What about me first? And if I happen to get the mission completed great, but as long as I got what I needed, that's how I'm in, that's kind of how I hear that.

Does that make sense?

Marika: Yeah, for sure. And you know, I mean, there we can talk about toxic leadership and and my definition of it, of course, but you know. You know, one of the key things that you've mentioned here is what's my agenda? What's my intention? Right? Is it, is it me? Is it serving me and only me? And I don't care about the consequences that's going to have on [00:11:00] others or the community or the world in general?

Or am I actually going to have an approach that I call enlightened selfishness, right? Which is, this is going to be a win win for everyone. So that's. Me included, but others included as well. And so this is for me the main difference, which is why I always say, you know, in order to, um, discern the toxicity of a leader of a group, really going, dive into what's the intention, what's their, what's their agenda.

And, uh, yeah, that, that, that's the way and see if it's collaborative or if it's purely individual.

Simon: Well, thank you so much for that. I love how you differentiated the differences between what you see as toxic leadership and, and what, and those two definitions that I just offered, if, if you wanted to summarize your definition of toxic leadership, what do you think that would be?

Marika: Yeah, so for me, it's based on, uh, you know, the old paradigm of leadership, and [00:12:00] it's mainly influenced by the patriarchy as well. So for me, toxic leadership is based on values such as domination, competition, power. Um, and you know, obviously self centeredness, uh, it's, it's not mission led, uh, it's self interest led.

And, um, then it also has, has an element sometimes of, Finding one's power in crushing, dominating, manipulating others, right? So there is obviously there are different, that's a spectrum, right? Um, so, so this is from intoxicatorship, whereas, you know, healthy leadership, which in my world is consciously leadership, uh, is based on values of collaboration.

Of inclusion of co creation of compassion Um, which which are very very different and [00:13:00] opposed in a way. Um, so yeah, this is this is our definition

Simon: Well, thank you very much for that definition. I like how you spoke about everyone else, look, working for everyone else, putting the mission first, the, the, the objective, whatever that may be. And as someone who has spent many, many years in the military, I sure do like talking about mission objectives, because that is a very military term.

And I can relate to that. And I think a lot of the times it's about how we can relate examples to individuals to help them understand the content. And that's important. So thank you very much for that. I am curious. With the definition in mind, how might we recognize or identify toxic leaders? Like, are there specific signs or traits that we should be looking for?

Marika: Yes, so, you know when it comes to toxic leadership, we have to be patient Of course, there are some red flags that we can see And kind of make a mental note of these, but it requires [00:14:00] patience because really what we want to observe is a few things. One of them is the alignment of one person's thoughts, words, and actions.

Toxicity, uh, swims into gray areas. When there is possibilities for manipulation and possibilities for lack of clarity, lack of transparency, lack of honesty. So we have to pay attention to how align the words and the action of, of one leader is to start with. Um, then I always pay a lot of attention to how that leader is going to treat other people, and by other people, I mean, Right.

So the waiter or the president of the United States, right, is, is that person having a different treatment with human beings, depending on how well they can serve them and their own interests. Right. Um, and lastly, it's all about values. So, you know, in order to, um, uh, To [00:15:00] apprehend our appreciate the values of one person you that's where you need time because the values are going to be reflected in the actions of each individual.

So you know if my value is collaboration, how am I going to show that in my day to day leadership in the way I show up in the way I. I am aligned with my mission and my contribution to the greater good and in the way I need my So, you know, those are all the things that we need to pay attention to and the more we are Familiar with toxic leadership the more we can have those pointers, you know those red flags and and For me, like, you know, one red flag is already a big red flag.

When I see two red flags, I have a pattern. When I see three red flags, I have a definite confirmation of a pattern. So we don't need so much, really, in order to appreciate toxicity.

Simon: I absolutely agree. And when you see the red flags and you keep seeing the red flags, [00:16:00] that's an issue, or if they keep happening time. And again, that's also an issue. One of the things that I experienced, and it's just because of the way I crush information in my mind is in the moment, it's very difficult for me to fully absorb what's happening, be it good or bad or.

Or whatever the terminology we may want to use. What I do find is though when I've often had a time to sit back and reflect on it, then I can say to myself, Oh, that's right. That was not a good situation for whatever reason. And that's also helpful to understand when we're evaluating ourselves, but also evaluating our leaders.

We can be looking back and why? And there's nothing wrong with that. Just because someone's in charge doesn't mean they're Good at doing what they're do or not, or not good. I'm not suggesting all leaders are bad either, but there's certainly something to be said about us evaluating, uh, leaders based on our own personal values and the values of the organization we're employed with.

Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

Marika: Yes. First, I would like to emphasize the fact that I [00:17:00] completely agree. Sometimes it's hard to, you know, uh, have discernment in the now. Um, and that's not an issue at all. Um, what I, what I really invite people to do if they are kind of inquiring around toxic leadership is to really not hesitate. To dive deeper and and dig deeper so that we find out what's the intention and what's the agenda.

So it might be something like, oh, you know, I, I, you said that, or I received that email, and I would like to have more understanding or more clarity on, on why you said that or what it means to you, right? So that we actually push, uh, for clarity. We push for really seeing was that a misunderstanding? Was it a miscommunication or is it really an embodied value that I'm Seeing there, that is actually not, not one that I want to align with.

Um, of course we have the values on the, of the indi, sorry, of the individual and the values of the organization. And those needs to be, need to be aligned as well. So when we join an organization, it's crucial [00:18:00] that we do our own research on the values of the organization. Are they aligned with. Are they aligned with our values?

Are they embodied within the organization? Those are questions to ask. And of course, see if the leader is in line with these values. Is he or she embodying those values or not? So it's, it's a lot of connecting the dots and making sure that there is alignment. Each time there is a misalignment, it should be a place of inquiry for us, uh, because when there is misalignment, it's, it's a place of suffering either for the employee or for the organization or for the leader.

Uh, if, if it's not a place of suffering, then it's a place of toxicity.

Simon: Thank you very much for that. And I completely agree in that it's understanding how things are coming together and that everyone is looking towards the same goals for the same reasons. And it's about actioning that and actually not just saying and doing it. How many organizations have a vision statement or a mission statement, but then it [00:19:00] just becomes a poster on the wall and no one actually follows or listens to it.

They just, they know they need to have something. As the leader, we are being judged by those things. And whether or not we're actually standing up for those virtues, and it matters, it very much matters because if we're not, if we, we are now eating into trust, we're eroding that faith that the team and the organization might have in us because for, for a whole myriad of different reasons, do you have any thoughts on that?

Would you agree with that?

Marika: Yeah, I do. I mean, toxicity happens first in the words that we say, right? Um, and so if there is not An embodiment of the values of the vision and the mission or even just, you know, as, as the concept of self, if I, uh, if I'm portraying myself in, in a certain way, but I'm not an embodiment with my action of that way of being, then I am a toxic person.

Um, so, you know, that piece, which is all about embodiment integration, [00:20:00] anchoring is, is crucial. Um, and and this is where we it's a place of inquiry. I don't know if I'm answering your question or not. But you know, if you want me to precise something, ask me again, please.

Simon: Yeah, no, you had definitely answered the question. I agree. It's a, it's about that embodiment of the organization or the person or whatever. And it's also about being true with ourselves. If we're a leader and our goal is to push our own agenda, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that, but keeping in mind that there will be follow on effects to what's going to happen with that and how the team will, or, you know, how much they'll trust you, how much they'll work, how hard they'll work for an individual, so it's understanding that if that's the type of leader, someone wants to be okay. But there are consequences to that. Uh, of course we would hope they wouldn't want to go that route, but you never know. And I'm in no way. Am I trying to lay judgment?

Marika: Yeah, and I fully agree with that. For me, it's all about authenticity. And so, you know, if if you are in it for you, and you know, your [00:21:00] own agenda, at least own it. That's not toxic. You know, that's authentic. Um, toxicity is when there is manipulations and and gray areas. Uh, you know, some people might be aligned with that.

And why, you know, you know, from the financial industry where I come from. I was, I was an equity sales and you know, we had very clear contracts with, um, positive dangers. We, you know, I was basically earning a percentage of the revenue I was bringing. So it was like, you eat what you kill, but it was clear for everyone.

So, you know, everybody was kind of in it for eating what they were killing. Um, it was obviously difficult to create a culture of collaboration just because of that. And you know, I, I spent many, many hours trying to explain people that it's better to have 20% of 100 than 100 of zero. And that if we can work together, we can increase our revenue.

Uh, but at least the game was clear, you know, so it was, there was some toxicity, but not on [00:22:00] that front.

Simon: Oh, uh, it's interesting how a lot of the times there are similarities. I know when I was in the military in the regular force, uh, I, I was at this one particular posting and it was a position where more often than not. It, when you got this, these types of positions or these postings, you would usually get [00:23:00] promoted very, very quickly because it was a high profile.

And there was a bunch of different reasons. Uh, and I remember Ikea, most of us wanted to be there to go and actually Do an important job and make a difference. And I remember I came across this one person and the individual said, you know what, the only reason I'm here is because I want to get promoted.

I don't care about this job. I don't care about being here. I don't care about the individuals I need to work with. I want to be promoted. And I, I kind of, I mean, while that was a little off putting at first, cause I wasn't really prepared for that, I appreciated the honesty, at least then I knew. Now, I will say, if it did come time, when it came time to have a conversation with someone, or, you know, go that extra step, that was the last person I would go to.

And I would generally only speak to that person if I absolutely had to, because I knew that they were not there for the right reasons, or the same reasons as me. Uh, and, and there, that, there are consequences. But. That's okay too. As long as you're honest, like you said, and you're owning it. I don't see an issue with that.

Does that make sense?

Marika: Well, the thing is, yeah, as long as you're honest with [00:24:00] me, then you're giving me the opportunity to make a real choice. Do I want to engage with you or not? But if I, I want to, we are clear on it's a fair, it's a, it's fair game in a way, because I know who I'm engaging with. The toxicity is when we, we don't know, right?

Because somebody is putting, is wearing a mask.

Simon: I completely agree. And I'm thinking about ways that we can identify when we may be inside a toxic environment. And an example in my mind that I think of is if I'm having a conversation with the leader and the leader's gossiping to me about other people in the team. For me, that is a huge sign that I am probably embroiled in a toxic environment.

Does the first, I have two questions. Do you agree with that? And secondly, what type of signs or signals or red flags do you see means that someone is inside a toxic team?

Marika: Yeah, so yeah, I fully agree with that. Um, you know, there is a great piece of work by Brony [00:25:00] Brown that's called, um, the, well, she basically dissects trust and, um, she has this acronym that's called braving. And one of them is V for vault. That basically says, if you share something with me, I'm a vault and therefore I'm not going to share it with anyone.

And because If I share it with if you share something with me that has been shared confidentially with you are even like, you know, if you're gossiping together, how do I know that you're not doing the same thing when I'm not there? So it doesn't create trust, right? Um, so that that's extremely important.

Uh, you know, in, in our programs and our teachings, we really advocate for a culture where there is no gossip, like zero tolerance for gossip, um, same as zero tolerance for drama, because that, you know, that drama is also, um, feeds toxicity. Um, so clearly, yes, uh, you know, I would say. If you find yourself in an environment where there is a lot of gossiping, a lot of drama, there is a lot of [00:26:00] hiding, like people are not taking responsibility because they are scared to make mistakes.

Um, there is, um, very little creativity because people are scared to voice their opinions. They are scared to, uh, be rejected or, you know, not to be, uh, received or even taken into consideration. Um, you can start you, you know, inquire further. Um, but those are those are big, big red flags in organizations. Um, and in big organizations, you know, there is this culture of email where you have 20 people in copy, and nobody's taking responsibility on nobody's really moving the issue forward.

Um, you know, that that's I wouldn't say that's that's kind of a red flag, because sadly, it happens a lot in organizations, but it's not healthy.

Simon: Yeah, absolutely. And it definitely not healthy in those types of places. So it's a challenge. So if we have. [00:27:00] Recognize we are now, I'm going to start that again. So let's imagine we've recognized we're inside a toxic team and, and very likely the leader is a toxic leader. What can I do as a member of the team to either get myself out of that or highlight the fact that we're in this, how can we solve the issues?

Marika: Yeah, that's a very good question. Um, so first I'm, I'm going to say with, you know, 15 years of research on narcissism that, uh, you know, if we have a high functioning narcissist as a leader, they don't change, um, they don't work on themselves. Um, so, you know, ultimately we want to find an exit plan. Right. Uh, now it's how do we work towards that and how do we reclaim our power before we go?

Because that's extremely important, right? We, when we are in the toxic team and we have a toxic leader, most likely we have been verbally or emotionally or mentally abused. [00:28:00] Uh, we have lost our sense of self. We have, we have lost our confidence. We might be, uh, extremely anxious, um, emotionally stressed. We might be on the verge of burnout.

Um, it's important to actually, if we can, because, you know, it's, it's, um, being, being in a relationship with a narcissist is extremely. So some people just need to get out of it right and they and you know, we see a lot of burnouts that have been caused by, you know, toxic leadership. But if we can, do. It's going to be very important for our evolution and to prepare our next step, our next professional chapter in this company or in another one, because we can also do some lateral moves to actually understand why we have allowed this to happen.

What are we tolerating that we shouldn't be tolerating to do some deeper work on ourselves? Why am I [00:29:00] accepting this? Where is it coming from? Where in my life have I been exposed to that? Most of the time we have been exposed to toxicity in our family constellation or in our childhood or in our teenagers, could be bullying at school, but you know, there is most of the time, um, you know, a resonance with something that has happened in our lives.

before that has made us accept that bad treatment. So we need to do that digging within ourselves. Um, and then we need to start having boundaries and we need to start placing those boundaries and, and decide what is it that we are going to stop tolerating. How are we going to voice that in a way that is empowering and safe?

Because there is an element of lack of safety when we have a toxic leader as well. We are working on it on eggshells. We are always scared of their reaction, and so we need to create safety for ourselves with boundaries and with [00:30:00] communication that is very clear, written as much as possible, right? As I said before, toxicity lives in the gray area, so we want to clarify things as much as possible.

In writing, um, and, uh, and and start to appreciate the level of toxicity. Um, of course, you know, now HR departments are much more familiar with that. So, you know, there could be an ear there that could be depending on your company on your industry. Uh, you know, there could be some support there as well. But we have to do that mindfully and carefully.

Um, but yeah, it starts really with boundaries. What? What is it that I'm going to stop tolerating?

Simon: And I completely agree. The boundaries are absolutely vital. I, I do feel though, and I'd like to know your thoughts on this, that when we're talking about these boundaries and setting the boundaries, there's two things to, to think about. I feel the first one is understanding that creating those boundaries is not going to be [00:31:00] easy to do.

Often a toxic leader. My, in my experiences have been, they want harder work. They don't want to hear any complaint. They just want to get the thing done because it's in their best interest to get whatever the tasking is done and having any type of boundary. Now is wrestling control or their perception of control out of their hands.

And that's not in their best interest. So setting, creating the boundaries and setting them is going to take a lot of time and patience and constantly enforcing those personal and professional boundaries. Do you have any thoughts on that at all? Does that make sense?

Marika: Oh yeah, completely. Um, I mean, boundaries is a, is a transform, is a, is an art, you know, um, and when you haven't been, um, practicing that muscle, training that muscle, it can be very uncomfortable as well to start to place boundaries. Um, Especially with a toxic person because they're not gonna like it at all.

So they will challenge the boundaries. They might bully you because you're placing a boundary. So it's not [00:32:00] easy. It's not an easy exercise, which is why I said that the importance of it is also about reclaiming our power. So we do this for ourselves, mainly, and that that is the goal, right? When we are no, I mean, I'll say something is that when we are placing a boundary that is Fair that is right.

That is just most of the time. It's going to be uncomfortable for both people and the person on the receiving end is not going to like it, as I said, so we have to be. Okay with that, even if it's a healthy person, they will not probably like that we have reinforced boundaries. If it's a toxic person, they will, we will be challenged massively with our boundary.

So it's part of the evolution. It's part of the game in a way. Um, and, uh, you know, for the people who are really unmatched with toxic leadership are people who are usually empath. [00:33:00] Who might have codependent relationship patterns, and so for that type of people placing boundaries and learning about the art of boundaries much more than actually, you know, creating a safer, safer work environment.

So I really invite you to actually do so and try that. Because, um, yeah, it would be difficult, but it's a big part of your transformation. I also want to add that self care is crucial because when we are in a toxic environment, we are really, uh, damaged. We are suffering, uh, on a mental, on an emotional level.

And so we need to take care of ourselves emotionally and mentally, we need to pay attention to our sanity. Um, and, and, you know, so we need to have those practices, whether it's meditation or yoga or walking in nature or listening to music, whatever works for you, but we need to level up our self care whenever we are in a toxic relationship.

And also [00:34:00] whenever we are leveling up the way we are not going to tolerate it anymore, because we are entering a conflict phase.

Simon: I, when you spoke about the, the fact that it will be uncomfortable and that is absolutely correct. Going and having a hard conversation or a serious conversation is difficult enough with people that you feel safe with. It's even more pronounced when you're confident that that person is not going to receive the information in a mature, calm manner.

I would like to remind everyone that that is going to be very difficult. It is going to be uncomfortable, but for the sake of everyone's personal and professional safety, it's important to step into that uncomfortableness and accept that it's going to happen and lead forward. Especially if you want to be a leader, this is a leadership theme podcast.

It's all about being in those leadership roles. The other thought I had about this is that. Is there maybe that this won't be a quick fix if there's a toxic leadership, unless the person leaves and they're replaced with someone who's [00:35:00] amazing, it's not going to be a quick fix. It's going to take time to maybe help the person understand or, or find other ways to make it work also that it.

Might mean that you're going to have to get some help that things are going to, you might need an outside agency, HR to step in and fix things or, or advise things or whatever the term we want to use. Those things are okay. Those tools are there to be used to make an environment safe where everyone feels valued and welcome because that's everyone's right.

Do you have, do you have any thoughts in that? Am I on my own?

Marika: No, no, I, I fully agree. It's, uh, it's not going to be a quick fix. Um, and you know, whether it's personal or professional, uh, if we are exiting or, you know, trying to transform a toxic environment, it takes time. Um, I, I always advocate to have as much support as possible, uh, to create your kind of inner circle of trust.

If you are involved with a toxic leader [00:36:00] as much as possible, if you have to have those difficult conversation, see if you can have somebody else with you from your team or, you know, from HR. I know that, you know, it can be quite exposing, uh, to do so, but, you know, um, as much as possible, try to have somebody who's gonna be a test, a testimony of what's going on.

And if you have those conversations on your own, Um, and then at the meeting, write an email that says, you know, this, we had this meeting and I really appreciated that we talked about this, this and this and this. So basically you want to document everything so that, uh, your words cannot be, um, changed and, uh, you cannot be basically used as a weapon for manipulation.

Um, but yeah, you are clearly in something that is not a short term fix. Um, and you know, getting help is crucial. Uh, you know, I've also helped [00:37:00] individuals get out of toxic marriages. Help in those instances is really crucial because what toxicity, toxicity does is that it makes you question your sense of self.

And so as long as you are trying to change that environment, but still be in it. You are going to need some tools and some support in order to strengthen your sense of self so that you can actually fight that toxicity.

Simon: Well, thank you so much for that. And that sounds like a really great point for us to maybe consider moving into the lightning round. But before we do that, do you have any thoughts or any final thoughts on toxic leadership and how lead, how leaders and team members might be able to eradicate it?

Marika: Yeah, I would love that. I would love to eradicate toxic leadership. Um, that's part of our mission. Um, Well, I think there is [00:38:00] there is something to say around the old paradigm of leadership and the new paradigm of leadership and the old paradigm clearly has many components of toxicity within it. Um, I think I said before that in my, in my view, it's been influenced by the patriarchy as well.

So we need We need a leadership systemic change, but we need we also need a system systemic change, right? So if everybody could, um, you know, be the change that they want to see, uh, and and really, um, question themselves on how they are showing up in their day to day lives, how they are showing up, uh, you know, are they showing up with authenticity, with integrity, with honesty, and how can they challenge within them The original system that they have been programmed with because we've all been programmed with that toxicity within us.

We've been exposed to it. So we need to challenge it within ourselves. And, you know, one of the ways we look at that at ConsciousLeadership. [00:39:00] org is to look at the masculine and the feminine within us. Um, so as much as there is distorted masculine, there is also distorted feminine. So I really encourage you to, you know, educate yourself on that.

The masculine within us is the... The part that does strategy execution, uh, you know, measures, uh, very logic, logical. Um, and so the distorted masculine is going to be highly competitive, dominating. It's all about power. It's all about winning over someone. Um, so we have those traits within us, men and women.

And the opposite side of that masculine polarity. So a toxic feminine is going to be allowing abuse, is going to be looking for a sense of validation outside of his or herself, and therefore is going to be vulnerable to that toxicity. Um, you know, that that toxic feminine as well, um, is going to be, [00:40:00] um, What can I say?

Because there is so much. I would say looking for external validation, lacking self confidence, fearing rejection, and therefore not digging into the intentions, right? Wanting to be liked. All of those reasons are reasons why unconsciously we tolerate toxic leadership. So we need to question that within ourselves, men and women and heal those two pillars within us and gender.

It doesn't, you know, it's completely gender and specific men and women and everyone in this world has a masculine and a feminine polarity within us. So if we are all looking at that, what needs to be healed and we transform individually, then we also show a new way to lead and we can transform the system.

Simon: Well, thank you very much for that. I agree. 

Well, listen, Marika, we have had a fantastic conversation and if people want to engage your services or reach out to you to have a conversation, how might they do that?

Marika: Yeah, so you can find [00:41:00] us on our website, ConsciousLeadership. org, and we have plenty of, uh, you know, free resources there if you want to dive deeper into what is Conscious Leadership, and you can send me an email at any time, either from the website or directly maricar at Conscious Leadership. I will be very, I'll be delighted to have a conversation, whether you're an individual or an organization or, you know, anyone who actually wants to, um, you know, change the system and create a better world.

Simon: Well, thank you very much. This has been an absolute pleasure. And I, once again, and for the last time, I promise, thank you so much for staying up later in your work day to connect and, and share this information with us. Thank you very much. Have a great night.

Marika: You're welcome, Simon. It was a true pleasure and have a good day.

Simon: Oh, most, most definitely. 

Well, that's a wrap from the front. In this episode, we talked about toxic leadership. We started by [00:42:00] defining toxic leadership, and then we talked about what a toxic leader looks and sounds like.

And then we rolled into understanding when we might be in a toxic team and how we can help ourselves get out of that and ensure that we are not the toxic leaders. Because at the end of the day, leaders are supposed to be the people that can be relied upon to embody our personal and professional values and understand the mission organizational needs and finding a blend between all of them.

Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits, the depth of your vision. [00:43:00]