Special Guest - Chris Evans - Timberlab's Rise in Mass Timber Construction

What makes a construction project a true "cathedral" of its kind? Find out as Chris Evans of Timberlab returns to discuss the awe-inspiring Portland Airport Exchange Hub (PDX) project. This episode uncovers the meticulous planning and seamless collaboration between Hoffman and Skanska that turned this ambitious vision into reality. Chris provides a behind-the-scenes look at the logistical hurdles they overcame, particularly the fabrication and assembly of massive timber cassettes, all while ensuring minimal disruption to busy airport operations.

Discover the strategic moves that are propelling Timberlab to new heights with their recent acquisition of American Laminators. Chris sheds light on how this merger amplifies Timberlab's capabilities in high-quality glulam production and mass timber projects. You'll hear about their first collaborative success—a library in Portland—and get an exciting teaser of their plans for a state-of-the-art Cross Laminated Timber (CLT) facility. This new venture is not just about expanding their market presence but also about setting new standards in the industry.

Lastly, Chris takes us on a tour of Timberlab's upcoming CLT facility in Oregon. Set to be commercially viable by January 2027, this automated marvel aims to push the boundaries of mass timber construction. From new glue technology to partnerships with suppliers, Chris discusses how Timberlab stays ahead of the curve. Don't miss updates on their thrilling projects across the U.S., including a tech client's facility in Vancouver, a museum in Memphis, and more. This episode is a treasure trove for anyone fascinated by the innovation and future of mass timber construction.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. This is the moment you all have been waiting for. It's time for the global sensation, the one, the only the undisputed heavyweight podcast in the world the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. And now here's Paul Kramer, your host.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Good morning, good afternoon or good evening. It's Paul Kramer, back with another episode of the Mass Timber Construction Podcast, and I have a special guest who was on well over three years ago, back in February, in 2021, when the podcast was in its infantile form and we had a conversation and there was a lot of things they couldn't tell us about projects that were coming up, and now, with the passage of time, these projects have now come to fruition and I'd like to welcome Chris Evans back from Swinidon slash Timberberlab because he wears these two hats. But of course, timberlab is the main focus for the mass timber element that we've been talking about relative today, but of course it's not separable from Swinerton, right, Chris?

Speaker 3: 1:36

I mean it is and it isn't. I mean we've we've separated out our brand and my hat today is probably all on the on the Timberlab side. So, really, 100 percent focus on the mass timber and mass timber construction and. But you know, Swinerton is our parent company, a great employee owned company, and I think that it's spectacular to be part of a culture that's an employee owned culture and I think that makes it a special place to work and we have a great, great partner with our parent company.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Yeah, I just want to say thank you for the support you've given us from both the Swinerton perspective as well as the Timberlab perspective, because we've got great insights from people in your team over many podcast episodes, anything from the strategic approach, which will probably form part of what we're talking about today, all the way down to production level you know having Magnum on the show and having a chat with him about what's happening at the manufacturing level and, yeah, all the way through to, you know, the Ascent project. So thank you from me and the listeners. But we do have unfinished business because the PDX, the Portland Airport Exchange Hub, didn't get developed at the time when we did the episode back in February 21. How did that project go? Tell us about the impact that's made and you know any specific significant things that have come out of that project?

Speaker 3: 3:09

Yeah, so a spectacular project. I think number one just the experience of the space is a testament to the great architecture that was done there and great vision of the port architecture that was done there and great vision of the port. When you walk in, uh, you're just kind of blown away and speechless, and truly speechless for a period of time. It is, it is a, a cathedral and it is a, uh, I think, a good testament to what, what can be done with, with our all of our building products that we have available and and so spectacular. I I think it's something you just what can be done with all of our building products that we have available and so spectacular. I think it's something you just have to be there to experience. So fly to Portland, come experience that as the gateway to the wonderful city that's here.

Speaker 2: 4:00

The images were impressive of that project, with large cassette systems being sort of wheeled into place. It was a project that we followed dearly through the construction and we were very privileged to get images from your team, when they were permitted to be released of course, to expose it across our social media journal, across our social media journal, and it got significant ratings in terms of not just the sheer magnitude of this sort of cathedral approach to the construction but the way it was assembled. I mean, there was some pretty difficult technical challenges logistically to get that in right.

Speaker 3: 4:38

Absolutely. And that's really, you know, the joint venture, gc, um uh, hoffman and skanska they they did a spectacular job, really great people on their team that uh worked with the engineering team and design professionals to really come up with a, a plan that could really put public safety and it's uh, you know that that was the paramount thing is looking at the traveling public and making sure that the experience of the traveling public wasn't affected by the construction. So you know, as someone who flies through that airport a lot, I think they achieved all those goals minimal impact to the traveling public and a really well thought out, very complex mega construction project. So just the construction nerd in me is pretty excited on what can be done with just thoughtful planning and that project's really a testament to that.

Speaker 2: 5:41

What do you put the careful planning down to? Is there one quintessential element? Given that you've got multiple stakeholders engaged in the project, I would assume coordination's a primary element. What was the essence for making that magic work, do you think?

Speaker 3: 6:09

work. Do you think you know? Um, I, I think it just comes down to good communication, you know, having good lines of communication with stakeholders and and getting getting the the input from many different members of the team and I. That that's really how that project was implemented. Um, at least from our vantage point and I have to assume that extends to everybody else in the project is just careful, thoughtful about hearing the opinions of all the people coming in to do the work and, uh, putting safety as the the absolute highest priority. Um, that was a message we we got first, you know, from our first pre-construction meeting on there, and that thoughtfulness went into the design and in the way that that building was constructed. So good, very great team and thoughtful ways of putting planning together.

Speaker 2: 7:02

One of the things I did want to ask you about this particular project. Given the magnificent cathedral approach to the structure itself, I was really interested in how did the design translate through to the manufacturing process? I know we saw a lot about the installation element. What were the sort of challenges from the team?

Speaker 2: 7:27

if you can recall from a few years ago now, what were the sort of challenges in fabrication? I mean, was it supply lines? Or because we were in the middle of COVID, right, we were just sort of going through the end of that, or was it? You know, the machinery couldn't produce what needed to be done, so the plans had to be modified with anything like that too.

Speaker 3: 7:49

Oh, absolutely, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean our work started there in 2019 and I think that's probably three or four years after some of the design consultants work started. So it's mean a lot of time and energy and time has gone by in that project and from my from our vantage point, I think what we saw is that from the design side engaging and curious and wanting to understand, okay, what are the parameters in which we can design in? Here's what our concept is, and then how do we need to tweak that concept so that we cannot just, you know, anything's achievable, I would say just, but anything's achievable for a cost.

Speaker 3: 8:41

I think our experience from the GC perspective probably gave another um, another set of hands on the project who were looking at things in the sense of how do we be schedule smart, uh, budget smart and not, uh, degrade from what the design intended? And I that that's kind of how we do our work all the time is we want to um, find ways to save money and understand manufacturing so that we can help preserve design intent without um, without having to spend an arm and a leg doing it in the process. So you know, there's some really small details on that project which we have our thumbprints on when, where the team sat down and said you know, this is what we're thinking. We came up with some alternatives uh and thoroughly investigate those and got to the right decision as a team um using uh fabrication constraints, manufacturing constraints and um also manufacturing opportunities you know the opportunities to come in and CNC uh. All the lattice in there.

Speaker 3: 9:56

Uh was a way to simplify the connection detailing and actually make it more cost-effective, and so that, to me, is an appropriate use of uh, of tools and equipment, is to help uh increase quality, but also uh deliver, deliver on a cost effective process. So I see that through it. When I, when I look at the structure, that's what I see. I see those types of things that we had meetings on back in 2019. And you see it come through in the final design, which is super fun.

Speaker 2: 10:34

I think there's a common theme through every conversation we've ever had with your organization. You're an employee-owned company. When you were doing portland, you also had the ascent coming online as well and you also had, uh, people like jake concannon, who are from um insurance, the insurance world, coming in and being invited in to look at what you were doing. And this, this sense of collaboration, continues through what you've just articulated, not only within the partners and the group within the PDX project, but also within your own supply chain. And it seems to me that this collaboration as an ethos within your company and having an understanding of the end-to-end process I guess formulation for the supply chain, at least for your element that you contribute to is a big strategic element. Would that be a fair summary for what you have articulated to at least me, in many podcasts?

Speaker 3: 11:40

Yeah, I think so. I mean this whole business. You can be a manufacturer of products or installer of products, but the whole business is any business is really, I guess, a thoughtful business is coming down to just be people centric and thinking about people. And if you grow people, grow their careers, give them the opportunity to grow their careers. A lot, a lot of growth is just giving people the opportunity to have the space in which to grow within uh and being relationship driven.

Speaker 3: 12:20

I, I think those are the things that uh are sustainable elements of like good business growth and I think we've tried to foster that within the our, our people, I think the employee ownership structure, you know we, we tend to have team members who want to stay and grow their career, you know, here and and find that home there as a, as a secondary family, as a work family. So I think fostering that, and then I think there's also we want to have, you know, fun. You know like work, work, work is a lot of work, but it doesn't have to feel like work all the time. So finding ways to have fun and smile about what you're doing and I, I think you know where what we've been fortunate with is we have a lot of curious people who are just curious on the way the world works and that's beyond what we're doing in our business but just but just, naturally curious people who want to learn and learn more.

Speaker 3: 13:29

And I think that for me I'm a lifelong learner, I love to get in. If there's a subject I'm not well versed on, the first thing I'm going to do is just try to understand it from all perspectives and try to gain a sense of like, okay, how's this, how's this really work? And I think we have that throughout our organization. And then I think that comes through with the way that you know we come into, like service a project is be open-minded and start to investigate. What are some other solutions here that could you know again, preserve that design intent, um, while also just making it efficient. And you know, uh, there's no sense having a piece on a CNC machine for eight hours just because you can and it that that's not fun for anybody. It what makes sense is to come in and try to find a way to do things efficiently and so that you know we can have an impact on as many projects as possible. And, and you know, keep, keep having people build. You know these types of buildings and spur that on.

Speaker 2: 14:42

Yeah. We just need to watch out for people having too much fam and fun and we're talking to you, sam, who's at the AIA conference right now. Don't have too much fun, chris. Thanks for that on PDX, and it's a really good lead into the next sort of segue. You've got some big news to sort of announce about what you've been doing. There's been lots of media publication about bits and pieces, but we'd really like to get a scoop, if we can yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:13

So we uh, you know we're a day away from closing on the acquisition um with american laminators, and american laminators is a has been, uh glulam in the Pacific Northwest since, I think, 1962. So you know, 62 years of glulam production. They have two facilities, a lot of capacity within those facilities, and so we're just, you know, the past six months we've been working on this as a secret project, you know, under an NDA and relatively confidential. So in the past month we've been able to, you know, share the news about it and you know we're bracing for that transition on Monday coming up, for that transition on on monday coming up, so in a few days. And it's been, you know, uh, from the first interactions with american laminators, I mean, we've known what american laminators can do. We, we've known that they make um a high quality product, that they really focus on that attention to detail and and making beautiful product, and so we can see that on their finish and the way they finish uh their products to to make a high quality product.

Speaker 3: 16:39

But I think back to uh this is going to sound repetitive, but you know it's. It comes back to the people, it's we. We immediately found, uh, that there was synergy with the people involved and that our team and their team just naturally gelled together. Uh, over the past six months that's been nothing but reinforced and I think that we've we've walked out making not only a good partnership but good friends in the process. Rural Oregon um uh, communities and and continue to infuse, uh, uh, you know, capital into those communities and help help help grow those businesses um, a little bit more, and uh, so for us it's been, it's been great and we've the process that we've got is we've we've inherited a whole, a whole other family to our team and we're just really excited about that aspect of it and and and feel there's just a lot of, a lot of synergies that will will, that will be mutually beneficial and help us just really succeed and deliver, deliver, keep delivering good products to our clients.

Speaker 2: 18:09

Well, congratulations on the acquisition and the news you know effectively came out sort of the end of May or thereabouts and for us to get the scoop on. You know the ethos behind it, the high-end product and what they produce. Where do you see that fitting into the markets? Within the timber lab sort of strategy?

Speaker 3: 18:33

yeah, I mean we, we're, we consume a lot of. You know, we use a lot of glue, uh, in our, in our process, uh, so they fit right in um, especially on the size of products they can do. You know, know, I was just down there last week and they were pressing, you know, 22 inch wide columns on their hydraulic press and you know coming out beautiful, looking amazing, and so it's just an immediate, so it's just an immediate absolute benefit and fit to what we're doing and we just want to continue to expand upon that, you know, and put that in a good quality mass timber buildings as we move forward.

Speaker 2: 19:23

They existed as a supplier before you courted them for acquisition, or were you getting the materials from elsewhere prior to?

Speaker 3: 19:33

Yeah, yeah, I mean we looked at using them on a couple of projects, but you know they weren't really supplying to, you know, the mass timber type projects out there, and so you know I feel like with this acquisition we've brought more capacity to the marketplace to be able to deliver products to the mass timber industry where they probably weren't really a huge participant in that, you know, prior to, prior to this. So I think there's excitement from all their team members, excitement for us and and a good balance. We know the mass timber side Well. They know the glulam side Well. We can fit those two things together to help continue that growth for the, for the organization.

Speaker 2: 20:27

That's brilliant. It seems like there's a synergistic fit in that, you know, not only is the acquisition, but there's also the contribution of, you know, knowledge and strategy and approach to a market that wasn't their core market previously, and now you're bringing these two things, they're coalescing, uh together, they're coming together, which is brilliant I, you know, I think I think also looking at the value too.

Speaker 3: 20:53

I mean, you know, we did announce that we're doing a cross laminated timber facility, the uh. We thought about doing a new glulam facility, uh, but I think we opted. We opted and preferred to bring on this excellence of like laminating excellence through American laminators as a better decision point than trying to spin up both a glulam manufacturing and CLT manufacturing facility. There's a ton of risk with that, just timing, bringing it online. So now, with with uh, with this move, we now have a whole bunch of professionals that have been you know, I think the oldest tenured employee has been laminating a product for 45 years, you know. So that's that's. That's a whole bunch of wealth of experience that we can bring to our team and then leverage that as we come in to certify and spin up the Cross-Laminae Timber Facility.

Speaker 3: 21:58

That just is a whole arsenal of wealth and of people that are really knowledgeable in that space to help make sure that we're doing that with absolute excellence from day one. And that's really, I think, just this other benefit of of where this you know, the strengths that they have really fill in for some. You know places where we weren't strong. Before we, you know, we weren't a manufacturer, so coming in and doing a key strategic acquisition like this really helps make that, I guess, a less risky venture and helps us have that professionalism that we absolutely need to have in that process. For that, um, and we are doing the first job with them right now, which is, uh, for a library project in portland, uh, and that's going through production right now, so it's looking fantastic yeah I'm glad to see it's in portland as well.

Speaker 2: 23:00

I think the people will be appreciative of the uh, the concentration in in in the location, which is brilliant. Yeah, so that uh, that conversation around having a strategic partner, that you know american lemonade's doing that, the glulam, the glt elements and then you mentioned leading into the clt plant. Give us a bit of an interlude on that. We haven't spoken about that on the podcast before, but news has been everywhere.

Speaker 3: 23:27

Love to know more about what's happening there too, please yeah, so, uh, just south of portland, here, maybe about an hour, we're putting in, uh, we'll end up being a 185 000 square foot. You know cross-laminated timber facility, um, you know european style as far as, like, automation and everything is considered, uh, so just a really fine-tuned automated plant, uh, producing, you know, cross-laminated timber, primarily with, uh, you know, fiber sources in the, in the, uh in the, uh in the Oregon region. And then, I don't know, excited, excited about it. It's, it's a beautiful uh. You know we're, we're definitely uh in the in the design process.

Speaker 3: 24:20

Now the building and, uh, you know, when faced with, you know, doing like a pre-engineered metal building or a mass timber building, we, of course, you know, chose the timber building because we wanted to stick by, you know. You know who we are and what we are and I think that that that in and of itself will be a good testament to what can be done in the industrial space, you know, for cost effective industrial frame for that building and we're just overall excited about that project. So we'll definitely keep you well informed as we progress through that. But I think we would say today, commercially viable in January 2027, as what that is, and that gives us some contingency time in there to work with to make that very achievable, so we feel good about that.

Speaker 2: 25:23

So orders for GLT as of Monday and orders for CLT as of 2027, right.

Speaker 3: 25:30

First, we've had amazing partners in the industry. We continue to have amazing partners with everybody we've had supply from. It's a very tight and small community, so we continue to procure great CLT products today from all of our various partners. Um, I, I think you know we're all trying to do the same thing, which is grow the, the use of mass timber and broaden yeah, broaden the overall use, uh, within the whole market. So feel pretty good, uh, feel pretty good with that and uh, so we'll, we'll take orders now, of course.

Speaker 2: 26:11

Um, yeah, of course it won't be timber lab built until those times. Of course you can supply now to clarify for everybody, just so I don't embarrass chris anymore. Um, chris, the, the, the, uh, the. The history shows that many places that try and do a slash glt clt plant um, really become quite proficient at one or the other In your CLT plant. Can you divulge who? The equipment is Not yet Damn. What about the glue technology? Are you going to go the Perbond HBX or are you going MUF or what are you doing for your glue technology? Can't tell you that yet. All right, that's fine. And what? And what about timber species? What do you think you're gonna go for there with feedstock?

Speaker 3: 27:06

yeah, well we'll absolutely be. You know, uh, predominantly on the, the douglas fir is, the is the predominant timber species in Oregon. But have the ability, you know, in CLT, to face that with SPF, to face that with Southern Yellow Pine, so that we can give, you know, our clients those aesthetic options that they want to have, but do it in a smart and responsible way. Um, but the, the, the Douglas fir core as a, we'll always be there as the, as the core meat of the panels. And then, um, that visual face, we have some, uh, latitude and flexibility with.

Speaker 2: 27:50

In Australia we went for a different grade of uh cross, cross lamella, transverse lamella versus longitudinal to try and maximize the efficiency of the feedstock. Are you looking at similar sort of hybrid mixes within your layout A hundred?

Speaker 3: 28:08

percent Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:11

Yeah, it's a smart, efficient way to do it.

Speaker 3: 28:14

Yeah, yeah, all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a smart way to do it. Yeah, yeah, all right, we'll be yeah we'll be definitely looking at that.

Speaker 2: 28:22

Sure, yeah, awesome. Any other news you want to spring on us that might not necessarily have hit the media that we didn't interlude to, not today not today the last time we did speak it, it was quite an officious occasion, and this one has not been an exception to that rule. Thank you for coming on to the podcast. What projects are you working on at the moment? We always try and finish with what you're doing right now. I know you've got the big library project coming up, but what else is in the books?

Speaker 3: 28:52

We have another I don't know if we're allowed to say the name of the client, but we have another really large project just uh, north of Portland, here in Vancouver, washington, uh, that we're working on right now, uh, for a large tech client and that that project's wonderful uh and wonderful, complex and, uh, a fun one. We're also working on a museum out in Memphis, so that's a really fun project as well. So those are the two outside the library, the two, uh, outside the library. You know those are. Those are probably the two other really notable projects we're working on right at this moment that are going through our manufacturing facility. Then we have a crew today down in flagstaff, arizona, um, doing a project down there. It's uh, there's a heat wave there right now, but they're in flagstaff, so they're up, uh, out of. Out of. You know, it's a lot cooler where they are by maybe like 20 degrees.

Speaker 2: 30:00

So, which is a good thing for the, for the teams down there oh, it's uh very contrast with melbourne where, where I've got four degrees outside right now, it's been wow, yeah, so so it's not a heat wave at all.

Speaker 3: 30:16

Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2: 30:18

Well, thank you for coming on. I know your time is very precious and it's always a privilege to have you on the show. Is there anything you would like to say in terms of how people get in touch with you about projects currently or things that you'd like people to know about? You know timber lab, american laminates and the future that, um, you want to impart.

Speaker 3: 30:40

Yeah, just always come check out our website. You can get in touch with us, uh, through that pretty easily. And, uh, you know, we're always. We're always available to give, like good, honest feedback of what, um, you know If a project's appropriate for timber or not appropriate. We're generally trying to give people that knowledge right away so that they aren't wasting their time. If they have a project that's not necessarily suitable for timber, we're a partner and we'll always come in and provide feedback to folks and, um, I think, uh, that that's about all I got today, paul pleasure to be on here and I appreciate it yeah, it's brilliant, chris.

Speaker 2: 31:26

I I've always enjoyed um a your name, because I'm a big avengers fan, but, importantly, the team you have, uh are individuals, every one of you and it's just a privilege to have you on. So, thank you so much. All the best. Thank you, monday's opening for American Laminates. We look forward to hearing more about the technology, the glue technology and the plant that's happening in the future for timber lab, and we'll get you back on for that and uh, yeah, thank you again to the team and yourself.

Speaker 3: 32:01

Awesome, all right thanks for you all.

Speaker 2: 32:14

The Thank you.