Transforming Law Enforcement: Chief Jack Cauley on Leadership, Innovation, and Community in Policing

Season 6 - Episode 129 

Step into the world of law enforcement leadership that's as complex as it is crucial, with a unique glimpse provided by Chief Jack Cauley of Castle Rock Police Department. From his humble beginnings as a dispatcher to the commanding role of police chief, Chief Cauley's journey is a testament to the indispensable skills forged in the early stages of a law enforcement career. 

His transition from Overland Park to Castle Rock encapsulates not just a change in scenery but the profound shifts required to steer a department toward cultural and technological progress. As we chatted, Cauley reveals the transformative power of Simon Sinek's leadership philosophies and the formation The Curve, a collective striving to reshape modern policing amid societal challenges.

Peek behind the badge to understand how building a positive internal culture within the police force can significantly enhance community relations. Chief Cauley discusses pioneering approaches to instill trust and collaboration, such as recognizing officer achievements through unique methods and evaluating policing quality beyond the traditional metrics. The essence of consent-based policing, as he envisions, hinges on each member's voice contributing to meaningful change, thereby revolutionizing the age-old hierarchies of law enforcement. Listen to how Castle Rock PD's strategic pillars of people, innovation, and community direct their efforts in crime prevention, traffic safety, and enhancing the quality of life for citizens.

Lastly, we navigate the vital channels of feedback, learning, and accountability that define a forward-thinking police organization. Chief Cauley shares invaluable insights on integrating technology for crime prevention and cultivating a responsive, learning environment that adapts from both internal and external critiques. The conversation also ventures into the importance of officer wellness, with initiatives like mandatory psychological check-ins and the eFit program, highlighting the department's commitment to supporting a psychologically safe work environment. 

Join us as we dissect the evolving roles within police work, the pursuit of innovative practices, and the significance of transparent leadership that embraces the modern landscape of policing.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro/OutroAnnouncement00:02

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast. 

Steve MorrealeHost00:32

Well, hello everybody. Steve Morreale, coming to you from Boston, Massachusetts today, and we are headed to the Rocky Mountains, and I want to say hello to my colleague, Jack Cauley, the chief at Castle Rock Police Department. Jack, hello, how are you? 

Jack CauleyGuest00:45

Hi Steve, I'm doing great and it's a pleasure to be with you today. 

Steve MorrealeHost00:48

Appreciate it. So to get started, you've got a storied history. You've been in law enforcement for many, many years. I had the same before I got into academia, but you were in Kansas and now you were the chief in Castle Rock. Talk about your trajectory. I see that you were a dispatcher. That's how you started in public safety. So tell your story. 

Jack CauleyGuest01:07

Sure, Actually, after graduating from college, at that point in time it was kind of difficult to get a job as a police officer. Believe it or not, the agency. I was wanting to work for didn't have any openings for police officers, so my friends that I knew there said hey, why don't? You just apply and you might get offered a dispatch job, and I was like sure so that wasn't my goal at first, but I certainly took the job to get a foot in the door to get started in my career and it was probably one of the best decisions that I've made in my career, because I have used those skills Well, it'll be 40 years in May. When I started, it was 84. So I've been able to use those skills throughout my career, whether it was as a police officer and then throughout my career as leader. That has had dispatch off and on, so it's. It was great, and I always tell people that it's one of the most difficult jobs I ever had. 

Steve MorrealeHost01:54

Yeah, that's interesting and I think when we step into those jobs I call them, if you don't mind and this is going to be pejorative, I don't mean it to sound that like at first we think it's a chicken shit job. And then you realize when I talk to young people, talk about your chicken shit job. I had this job with McDonald’s. It was oh no, no, no, no. What did you learn? What did you learn about that job? How did that help create sort of a base for you and I suppose it helps you, as a chief, have an absolute respect for the work that they do in dispatch and communication absolutely it really does. 

Jack CauleyGuest02:25

And when issues pop up in dispatch I can draw back on my experience Even though it was a really long time ago, I still can draw back on that and then also then they know that hey, I've done that job, so I understand the challenges that you have, and then we work together to work through it. But definitely it was a great experience for me and I'm really glad that that's how I started my career. 

Steve MorrealeHost02:42

Yeah, it was a great experience for me and I'm really glad that that's how I started my career. Yeah, and to stay on communications for a minute, they're the unsung heroes, I mean, they're taking every call, they have to triage it, they have to get as much information as possible, they have to calm down people who were very agitated at the time. Maybe it's a medical and we're trying to talk through things. Let's talk about that something very rarely that we talk on the podcast, but let's give them some attention for a minute. 

Jack CauleyGuest03:02

Absolutely, I'm glad to do it. I always see them and I kind of use it in a football analogy sometime when I explain it is the police officers in the field. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement03:09

They're like the running backs on a football team. 

Jack CauleyGuest03:11

You know, if they do well, something good happens. They get to spike it in the end zone. If they fumble, everybody sees it right. But the dispatchers are behind the scenes and without them the officers can't do what they need to do in the field to serve the community. It's a very stressful job. 

03:24

It's a job that, quite honestly, not very many people have the skills to do. It takes a special type of person, special type of skill, especially in today's world with all the technology that they have to run. Our particular dispatchers utilize license plate reader information that comes in, so that we're getting license plate hits all day long. And then we also have a camera system throughout town that they have access to and they're able to direct officers in town using the camera. So it's really evolved into more than just call taking and dispatching cars. They actually are intricately involved with the police officers duties out in the field. 

Steve MorrealeHost03:56

You know it's interesting. It sounds to me. I've never used this metaphor. It may be that they're in the play box and they're calling the shots. They're talking about where to go, what to do, how to avoid. Here's another call Watch out for this. 

Jack CauleyGuest04:07

Absolutely, they certainly are. Sometimes you might get a license plate reader hit and it's a misread, or they can tell that it probably was somebody who reported their license plate stolen. Maybe they get it back and they never get it out of the system and they're able to figure that out, so they'll let the officers know hey, we got this hit, but don't worry about it, we already vetted it. It's good to go. You don't have to worry about it. So you're absolutely. They are kind of orchestrating that, if you will. 

Steve MorrealeHost04:30

That's great. So why'd you leave Kansas? So tell us where you were in Kansas. 

Jack CauleyGuest04:34

So when I started my dispatch career, I then went to work at Overland  Park, Kansas, for 25 years, started as a police officer and worked my way up the ranks, worked in all the different divisions and units and that type of thing, like it's typical. I did that for 25 years and then had an opportunity to come out to Colorado. The chief's position opened up in Castle Rock and I applied for it. I was very fortunate enough to get that and that was 12 years ago this past January. So I've been here for 12 years as the chief. 

Steve MorrealeHost05:07

Transition. Like similarities, differences. 

Jack CauleyGuest05:10

Well, Overland Park is a much larger department. They are. The population is about 200,000. Currently we're at about 87,000. There was 260 at the time I was there. We have currently 97 officers. So you know, it's about half the size. That's the differences. The similarities would be the fact that the demographics of the communities that we serve are pretty similar, that some of the issues that we dealt with were pretty similar, just the scale was different. 

Steve MorrealeHost05:37

So you were outside of Kansas City in one place and now you're outside of Denver. So there's spillover for sure. Right, you've got the spillover effect and talk about that. Let's go back. Take you back 12 years. Here you finally have the job, basically a deputy chief, lieutenant colonel for that police department. You come in and now you're the honcho. You're inheriting a police department that had a previous chief. How did you approach learning, finding a way, getting to know the people, getting to know the problem? 

Jack CauleyGuest06:02

It was really interesting because this particular community organization was really very small even 20 years ago and it's grown very fast. So what I found when I got here is that they really hadn't kept up with technology and the growth and those types of things. 

06:18

So when I first came in, what I did and a lot of chiefs do, this is I sat down with everybody and had one-on-one discussions, talks. Hey, what is it that this organization does? Well, what are some things we need to work on? How are you? What is it that you need to thrive? I had a pretty long list of things that came out. I mean, quite honestly, the organization was behind the times, probably 15 or 20 years. 

Steve MorrealeHost06:38

So great challenge, great challenge for you. 

Jack CauleyGuest06:40

Absolutely, and for you Absolutely. And the culture was broken. We didn't have a good culture, so it was pretty toxic. That was what I learned from the team members, so we just took little steps right. The listening part was just the biggest piece of it, and what I found were that there were really three issues that popped up, three challenges that we addressed immediately to earn the trust of our team members, to show them that they were valued and to let them know that, hey, we're here to you. One of them is as simple as it sounds is that we're very fortunate in Colorado to have 300 days of sunshine a year, so it's a lot of sun, and in our police lobby, if you can envision a typical police lobby we had large windows at the very top by the ceiling. 

07:16

And so for years the record staff would complain that, hey, at certain parts of the day when the sun hits, we're blinded. We can't even see people walking in the door. And they had asked for blinds to be put up on the windows, but that was denied and they were given visors to wear, okay. So, you know, you kind of have to think well, how did that make them feel, right? You know, they certainly didn't feel like they were valued or listened to, or that their welfare was important. That was the perception. So we put blinds up, we ended up putting a fence around the parking lot, we ended up putting ballistic glass in the lobby so they feel safe. So those three simple acts really made a big difference and launched us into earning the trust and starting to change the culture of the entire organization. 

Steve MorrealeHost07:59

That we're willing to listen. 

Jack CauleyGuest08:01

Yeah, we're willing to listen, we hear you, and there are so many. There's some low hanging fruit that we really addressed. And little by little, one by one, we were able to start changing the culture and earning trust. 

Steve MorrealeHost08:13

Yeah, big deal is earning trust. So there's so many things. I took the time to take a look at your website and I see you have a therapy dog trading cars. You're very big in social media. You have a citizen police academy, an RUOK Program, a VIPS program, volunteer and police service, a youth academy. There's an awful lot of things and that's not unusual. Many, many, many police departments do that. But I know at one point in time and by the way, we're talking to Jack Cauley, and he's the chief of police at castle rock police department that you're south of Denver but during COVID and you're very active in IACP. I'm a member of IACP. You became engaged in listening to Simon Sinek, who I have followed with all of his books. Actually, I would say you were a disciple. I'm going to withdraw that and say, actually you're a collaborator better than a disciple. You've become a collaborator. Talk about that. I know you're not alone in this, but talk about The Curve. 

Jack CauleyGuest09:05

I'll start back at very kind of beginning. When I met Simon and that was in 2017 at an IACP conference. As I listened to him I really, really resonated what he was saying. So I read his book Leaders Eat Last that he had out. At the time I thought, hey, what a great book. It really speaks to what we've been trying to do here in our organization. So at that point in time we were five years into my time here as chief I thought, hey, we probably ought to get our it would be a good idea to get our command staff together and talk about our journey so far. So where have we been in the last five years? Because we made a lot of improvements and a lot of culture change, so I thought that let's use the book as a jumping off point. Culture change so I thought that let's use the book as a jumping off point. So we created a book club used Leadership Last, and it really I wasn't sure what to expect, but it was really great. Not only did we learn from Simon's book and the principles that he talks about in his book, but as a group, as a command staff so that would be myself, the commanders and all of our sergeants and first-line supervisors, including civilians- so we met over the summer and talked about different chapters and each person would present a chapter and we would talk about it but 

10:09

not only did we learn about their principles, but it also brought us together as a group and we started between each other so that when things popped up later on that were challenging, it wasn't the first time we were all in a room together and we can actually be in a room and rank is not there. We can agree to disagree, we can say whatever we need to do. It was really a great experience. So that happened. 

10:32

The next year Simon is at IACP again. I go to his presentation and then. So afterwards I introduced myself and said we had utilized Leadership Last for a book club. It's really been great, it's helped us change culture. And he said I'd like to go visit your department. So, sure enough, a month later he came to Castle Rock Police and we spent the day with him. I spent some personal time with him. He spent some time with staff, with the team that was in the book club, so they could ask him questions about the book. It was a great experience and from there we kind of bonded and became friends. So that's how that occurred. He really wanted to see an organization that actually was able to use some of those principles and then change culture, and so he was able to come here and talk with folks, and so that's kind of how that started and then fast forward. 

11:11

So that was 2018, a couple of years later, and we had. George Floyd incident. We had COVID. So Simon reached out to me and individual Dennis Leema, who's a sheriff in Florida, and said hey, let's talk about this. You know we're hurting as a profession with everything going on. What can we do to help? So Dennis and I identified other chiefs and sheriffs throughout the country. There's about 15, 16 of us at the time. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement11:34

And we got together and we had. 

Jack CauleyGuest11:36

Zoom calls kind of therapy, if you will, just to talk and know each other. 

11:39

Hey what can we do? So that kind of turned into bringing more people along. And then The Curve was launched, which is a group of police leaders and policing and sheriff's offices to come together to see if we can impact change within our profession, to push it forward, to modernize our profession and to solidify it, to improve it. So that's kind of what we were all about and we are all about. So we continue down that path, the path forward for our profession. 

Steve MorrealeHost12:10

So this is a closed shop leasing. I've been in several agencies myself and we kind of stick to ourselves and many times we've worked for people who say don't question, just do what you're told, don't raise anything, don't try to change anything. And this is a different climate now and I can see that we're beginning to move and police chiefs like yourself are beginning to allow for input. It's interesting. I just finished a conversation it was launched a bit ago and it was with somebody who had come from the Garda and they're big on policing by consent and in the midst of it her name is Grainne Perkins. In the midst of it she said you know, as I'm a chief now at the University of Southern Maine, I recognize that I can't do my job without the consent of the people in the organization. 

12:51

I thought what a bright thing to say. We say it, getting buy-in and allowing feedback and all that stuff. But imagine I want to say that again for you, jack, because think about what she was saying we can't police properly without the consent of the people. And what she was saying it's basically internal. We can't. It's procedural justice internally, we've heard that but having the consent of the people who work for that organization that we're going to follow you. It was a brilliant statement. What do you think about that? 

Jack CauleyGuest13:19

Oh, I think that's true and I think that you know, as it relates to our philosophy here at Castle Rock Police, it's, you know, our one by one policing. It's about changing the mindset of serving a group of people, ie: the people within an organization, or serving a community and changing that mindset to serving individuals, and when you do that, you know you start building relationships, you earn trust, and then I think it just kind of naturally becomes the consent piece that you're talking about. So it isn't us versus them. 

13:45

It's a we. We're working together and you know, I always look at it like, yeah, I'm the chief of police, but my role is no more important than somebody else's. I make the decisions and I get that. But the police dispatcher, what they do, is just as important. 

13:58

They're just as critical to our success as any one role or any one individual in departments, but certainly it's all about relationships, it's about earning trust and it's about creating these environments, and I'm a big believer in you. Create the proper environment and give people the tools they need to succeed and be there for them and support them. Then the rest will take care of itself. There isn't as a versus them, but that's in essence, that's consent, right, I mean, I prefer to look at it as more relationships, but it's definitely consent because we're all in it. We're not pushing back, you know, we're not pushing back at each other. 

Steve MorrealeHost14:29

No, no, I agree. I mean policing is about relationships. Period right. If you don't have one, it doesn't work. If you don't have a relationship with the media, you're SOL. Right, if an uphill battle without a relationship. And that takes time and energy. And, by the way, leadership is not an easy thing. So you, as a leader, trying to find your way, trying to help other people in a lot of ways, the way I look at leadership is we're no good if we don't help others, both inside the organization and outside the organization. Help develop people, help them recognize a mistake they made without creating a felony out of that particular incident. You've worked for police agencies where you didn't have your hat on. You're going to get a day off like cut, cut it out, stop it, would you really? I'm seeing you shake your head, so react to that, jack, yeah. 

Jack CauleyGuest15:18

Yeah, the hat, the hat thing kind of takes you back a long, long time. Me too, me too, me too, because you know you did get written up if you were outside your car without your hat on. Yeah, it goes back again. It goes back to environment. It goes back to creating that trust and traditional policing leadership style just does not work. It doesn't work in today's world for sure, and I'm not so sure it worked that well back even back years ago, you know but we didn't know any better. 

15:43

That's just kind of how it was. You know, well, back even back years ago, you know, but we didn't know any better. That's just kind of how it was. You know, we were time when, yeah, just do what I say because I'm the boss, and I think back on that I wonder how many leaders in policing years ago missed out on the more, I guess, modern ideas that police officers had but just couldn't express. Like nobody ever really asked me about that, right, I mean, we just kind of did what they wanted. It was all traditional metrics go out and write somebody a ticket, somebody a rest, and then that's success. And that's not how we identify or define success today. 

16:13

It isn't about that. It's about a lot of other things. Sure, we have to keep our communities safe, but it's really about earning trust with the community. Are we problem solving? Are we engaging with people? Are we there for them? Are we serving them? It isn't so much just these specific metrics, but that's how we grew up. 

Steve MorrealeHost16:29

It is, and you're absolutely right, and I think we're getting to a point where a lot of those, if they were old timers, we're old timers now, but if a lot of those old timers have moved on, we have to morph, we have to change. You know, bucking the system. If you would dare challenge something, you'd be seen as bucking the system, as opposed to it being received by command staff. That this is a possible idea we should consider, and so it really creates a mind shift requirement in command staff to accept feedback from people and to recognize there may be good ideas from the front line. Imagine that as a thought, jack ideas from the front line. 

Jack CauleyGuest17:05

Imagine that as a thought, jack. Well, that's why you have to be intentional with creating a culture and environment that exists with exactly what you're saying. It can't just be oh, the chief feels this way, or a commander does here or there. It's intentional and it's something that we focus on every single day. Culture is difficult. Changing culture, building culture, making sure it's healthy, it's strong, positive. It's hard because you have to pay attention to it every single day. If you see it slipping, then you need to address it. But it's something we talk about all the time and when we make decisions it's like okay, this is a tough one. We go back to our philosophy of one by one policing. Okay, is it consistent with what? 

Steve MorrealeHost17:37

are some of the things we need to think about. I don't mean to down here, but it seems to me. Is that is the metric or the expectation you have right, and that you want to hold people accountable? This is what we expect. We expect one-by-one policing, we expect one-on-one conversations, discussions, relationships, and we're going to give you the tools and the ability to do that. Is that a fair statement? 

Jack CauleyGuest17:58

You're absolutely correct and I'll just give you a story that kind of illustrates that. Is that so when I first became chief, read all the evaluations, sign off on them, and you know this was not. This is something that's probably happened in a lot of police departments. Is that we are reading through? 

18:13

Officer Johnson has done a good job this last year he was number one on his team for tickets written in the most car stops and arrests and things like that, and that's all fine, but we need to look at how's that being done and what are the outcomes. So now we don't see those in the evaluations anymore. Instead, what we're seeing are examples of one-by-one policing and going the extra mile or whatever it is for that person. And one-by-one policing isn't just the oh, I spent extra time with talking to somebody at a coffee shop. It's about serving others and creating environments that are safe and secure. So when we're out there and make a good arrest on whether it's a stolen vehicle or whatever, we're creating a safe environment for people. So that's still one-by-one policing, but what we focus on once we make that arrest, we're treating that person with dignity and respect. So we know it continues on. So it's holistic, if you will. 

Steve MorrealeHost19:02

I like hearing that. Going back to something you said a bit ago and we're talking to Jack Cauley. He's the chief of police in Castle Rock, Colorado Police Department. No-transcript, where were we, where are we, where should we be, where might we be? And taking stock in the things that you have done. So you've got a command staff that over time it's iterative and you make little changes what you said in the beginning. But now it's time to take a step back and say where were we and what have we done so far, and then sort of take chance to congratulate yourselves or congratulate the group for moving the ball forward. And if you don't do that, you just get caught up in the day-to-day. I mean, as a leader you have to step back and say timeout, where are we, Jack? 

Jack CauleyGuest19:48

Absolutely, and I think it's really that's an important piece of it. So it's really important to reinforce the environment and culture you're looking for. So when you see that it's reinforcing it every, single day If you're seeing it, reinforce it so we have a one-by-one annual policing award we give out to an officer. We have one-by-one coins that are special coins that we give out to individuals on a regular basis when we see good work. It goes back to the intentionality of the whole culture building it's just very important to do that. 

Steve MorrealeHost20:17

So, as I'm looking at this and and one of the things you started to say was this, there's a saying out there celebrate what you want to see more, whatever that is, and the one by one is exactly what you want to see more of. But what we measure makes a difference, and you know there's lots of Pavlov dogs out there to say, oh, is that what he wants? He wants more, he wants more car stops. No trouble, we'll give him that instead of. Is that what they want? More relationships. How do you count the community interactions? 

Jack CauleyGuest20:43

Yeah, it's funny. I know that this question comes up a lot with myself and others. I think one reason that the metrics in policing have been used for years tickets and arrests and those types of things is because it's easy to measure. We can do that, but there's ways to measure it. One is we do an internal survey every single year and ask our team members how you know just different questions how do you feel, are you happy working here? You know those types of things, so we get a gauge of how they're feeling. We also do a the town does and a lot of towns do this in cities a community survey and some questions we ask. I had asked them to put on the survey, which was a little bit different. But is we ask what is the approachability of our police officers so different? But is we ask what is the approachability of our police officers? So we ask our community are our police officers approachable? And we want to know that. 

21:28

And the results come out good. We are approachable, but if we start seeing that slip, then we need to look at it. So that's a metric we use. 

21:32

We know that we get great feedback. It isn't quantitative, it's qualitative, but it helps us. So we know we get a lot of feedback from the community interactions with them. Somebody once said, hey, maybe we measure it by the amount of treats that the community stops, by. It's feedback, it's surveys that the town does. It's just that type of information that you get, that we know it's working. And I think that as leaders we have to be okay with saying we know that we have a safe community, we know that we have a community that we've earned their trust because we're hearing that from them, the elected officials are hearing that. So if the question comes up, well, show me a number that's going to prove it. You have to be okay to say you know what? I can't show you necessarily a number that's going to really drive at that every single time, even though I could show you the number of how many tickets we wrote. 

22:18

That isn't what's getting us there. You know we need to look at what's our crime look like. Are we a safe community and are we addressing quality of life issues? 

22:25

We just finishing up our strategic plan and at the core of our strategic plan and we can explain our strategic plan like a one piece of paper and in the core of it is our one by one policing philosophy. The three pieces that come out are our pillars, and that's people - people within our organization. Innovation you have to be innovative. And community you have to have community support and community trust. And then we have focuses. So we have a focus of crime, traffic safety and a focus of quality of life issues. 

Steve MorrealeHost22:54

So all that together kind of drives what we do I want to ask you on a more global point of view, what do police agencies have to do to win back the trust? Not Castle Rock, but police agencies across the country. What are the things that are working with you that need to be tried elsewhere? 

Jack CauleyGuest23:11

Well, the first thing that has to happen is that leaders have to earn the trust of police officers and professionals, because if you don't do that, then to expect them to do the same in the community, it's kind of difficult to think about it. We ask them to put their lives on the line every day, keep our community safe, and then we say, oh, and, by the way, earn their trust. But are we earning their trust first? 

Steve MorrealeHost23:31

So that's the one that has that. It's a two-way street. I agree with that. 

Jack CauleyGuest23:33

Yes. So people that you lead and create environments where they can thrive and support them, build that and then when they go out into the community, it will become subconscious on how they serve, because they are now in a environment where they feel supported, that they feel safe and secure both physically and psychologically, and they are better equipped to serve the community. And it will happen. It takes time, I mean, just like things don't happen overnight but you have to start there and those are the basics and then eventually, when you're earning that trust and building those relationships internally the officers, the professional staff they will do that externally with the community and little by little, one by one, it will start having a good impact and start earning the trust. 

Steve MorrealeHost24:18

So my guess is that in your career you've seen surveys come and go and they're taken and you never hear about them. You don't know what was said, Somebody kind of hides the ball. It sounds like you don't do that. How do you provide feedback, both from the internal surveys and from your community surveys? How important is that to address them? 

Jack CauleyGuest24:38

It's very important. You have to address them. It's very important, you have to address them. So, having the survey, for example, the internal survey that we do, if we simply take the survey and talk about it within the command, staff go oh okay, let's address these things, and whether or not you do is one thing, but it's important and what we do is that we let our team know here's the results of the survey and then we'll let them know, and here's some things that we need to work on and we're going to focus on that. So for us. 

25:01

one of them that pops up every single year that we have a difficult time with is communication. How do you get at that? And so we'll get a radiant communication. It's like, well, we want to increase that what's going on here, and then we'll have more individual conversations to find out, well, what is it? And we'll get examples. 

Steve MorrealeHost25:16

Yeah, you drill into it to find out. Okay, what do you mean by that and how can we maybe address that? 

Jack CauleyGuest25:21

Yeah, so you have to. Once you get the survey, you need to talk about it and then show that you're addressing the pieces that came out of the survey so that they know and so that next year they, you know, it's like okay, yeah great. 

25:32

We want to get feedback. We want to know that they'll address it. The external feedback that the town does, the sort of thing that comes out every other year certainly that is something that is published externally and we talk about it internally to let them know. Hey, here's where we are good job see if they have any questions. We also have an app that we use to get feedback from individuals. That we contact CarStop or TrafficRest and some other types of incidents and we get feedback from them, kind of like you would on an Uber app. You know how your experience was, so we get that feedback as well. 

Steve MorrealeHost26:04

That's great. So there's a few other things that I wrote down. As this conversation continues, we're talking to Chief Jack Cauley in Castle Rock, Colorado. How's the weather been out there? 

Jack CauleyGuest26:12

Well, it's been up and down so we've had actually some really nice days 60 degrees here and there. We had a two-foot snowfall last week, so you know, then it'll be like 60 degrees a few days later. So that's kind of spring in Colorado. 

Steve MorrealeHost26:27

Well, the weather has been crazy, you know, I find it when you're watching the national news, that's all they're talking about floods and snow and rains coming and winds I'm like, oh my goodness. So I want to talk a little bit about whether or not you feel that you are running a learning organization. An organization is constantly trying to understand. Learn what it's doing well, learn what it can do better. 

Jack CauleyGuest26:49

Absolutely. I think that's so important to be a learning organization and a lifelong learner as a leader, and certainly we will look internally to see how can we have handled the situation better. You know, after action reports, things like that. But we're always looking for ideas, innovations. We're not afraid to try pretty much anything. You know that's part of creating a culture where innovation can thrive. It's okay to come up with an idea and try it, and if it doesn't work, we'll say it didn't work. That's fine. Scrap it, go back to what we were doing and go find something else. 

27:24

And we don't see that as a negative we see that as a positive is to try something, and we've tested the waters in some things, and without trying it, I don't think that we would have been where we are right now with some of our innovations. We probably wouldn't have tried it for fear of the unknown, but it's important. 

Steve MorrealeHost27:39

You know that's interesting, jack, because one of the things that I find is that we in law enforcement me, I'm not in law enforcement anymore, but those who are in law enforcement are risk takers. We're not really good risk takers with organizational decisions. Sometimes. You know we'll take a risk with a knife and a gun and that kind of stuff, but we're almost reticent to try something new. It sounds like you're willing, you and your command staff you've set a culture to say why not? 

Jack CauleyGuest28:11

Let's give it a try, let's do it for a pilot, let's tweak it if we have to or we can? 

28:12

can it, like you said, absolutely. You know that's what we did with the license plate readers. You know we decided okay, let's give this a try. What's going to happen? It's evolved from day one, and now we have coupled and meshed into that a townwide camera system, and now that and that moved into a real-time crime center. So we have two officers that are assigned to the dispatch center where the last split meter hits, come in and then they can drive the cameras and locate the vehicle and we're basically able to identify vehicles that come in here to our town that are stolen and identify them and apprehend the individuals or they leave town or whatever, but we're able to know that they're here, and so that took a while. 

28:45

We made some mistakes and there were some things that we weren't sure about, but we learned over time and now it's pretty smooth operation. They do a great job with it. 

Steve MorrealeHost28:53

All right, take me into one of your meetings and more recent, as opposed to the meetings that you had to have in 2012, where you were trying to retool and sort of set a standard and create a mission or revise the mission. So you've got command staff meetings. How do you run them? How do you run them so that it's not a top-down meeting? 

Jack CauleyGuest29:14

Sure. So one of the things that I practice is I save my part for the very end. So we go around the round table, everybody gives an update, we have discussions on whatever issue they want to bring up and talk about. I go last. So pretty much by the time it gets to me, we've talked about pretty much everything. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement29:30

We need to, I'll bring a few things up that we need to discuss. 

Jack CauleyGuest29:33

But the interesting thing and I think we do a pretty good job of this, I mean, you know it's again intentional, not that we're perfect at it, but we're not afraid to have some not agree with each other and have good debate and discussion and then walk away and go well, have to agree to disagree. We're not going to go that direction, and it may be between myself and another commander, it might be between two other commanders, but we all know that. Hey, we've been through a lot. We've created what we believe is a safe space. It's OK to disagree and it's not heavily top down. Now there are times when, yeah, okay, well, I'm the decision maker or two you know the four commanders to believe one thing and to believe the other it's like okay, well, we're going to go this direction but we do walk out of there. 

30:15

We walk out of there knowing that we respect each other and we had a full, good discussion, and I believe that most of the time, we don't leave anything off the table. I mean, everything's been aired. 

Steve MorrealeHost30:25

So back a few moments ago we were talking about the old days and I think that so many police departments were created in a paramilitary fashion and the military has changed. I think it has evolved. It actually allows for feedback from the troops who are on the front line and many departments are doing that. Some are still operating the old way, the top-down way. What's your view of the proper approach to even the concept of paramilitary with policing today? 

Jack CauleyGuest30:56

Well, interesting, you should bring that up. I've thought about this a lot throughout my career and as I reflect back on my career, when I started in policing, the chief at the time at the organization I was at was from the greatest generation. They call them greatest generation for a reason. Right, they did some great things, but their leadership style came from the military and so that worked for a bit and that's what happened. And then the what I would call older baby boomers that became chiefs, but they learned from the greatest generation. Then the younger baby boomers I would consider myself a younger baby boomer learned from the older baby boomers. 

31:31

And so if you don't break that cycle of that traditional way of leadership that the greatest generation learned from the military that came down, if you don't break that cycle, then we're going to be talking about this 20 years from now. Right, Because it just continues. And I think that we as a profession, that's still happening, that, yeah, there's a lot of more modern police leaders out there and that's what we need more of, but there is still that traditional piece that's out there. So we have to again, we have to be intentional, to look at that and go, okay, we're breaking the cycle. We're not doing that. We're going to change, so I think that's important. Now we all know that there is a time and place for a command and control type of situation. You know, sergeants have to be able to direct their officers at different areas if they're working on robbery, whatever it is. 

32:11

But instead of using that command and control mindset, 100% of the time let's just use it the 10 or 20% of the time that we need it, and then let's fall back on a more modern leadership style. The rest of the time. 

Steve MorrealeHost32:22

Yeah, I like that. Let's go back to relationships. So a sergeant is going to say to the troops listen, I'm available to you. Question me, Come on, come anytime, but there's a time and a place where I do not need to be questioned. When I need to take control of a scene and send you to the back door, and I don't want to go to the back door, there's nothing going on at the back door. Don't question me at that point in time. But it is about setting expectations and that's really important. In order to have accountability, you have to set expectations. I think not once, but quite often. What's your take on that? 

Jack CauleyGuest32:52

Clarity is the number one driver of performance and success, and I think that everybody wants clarity. We know that right from the research. So, being clear with your teams, this is the expectations. I expect it as your, your leader, and what we expect as the team that's so important to do. 

Steve MorrealeHost33:09

And people want it. 

Jack CauleyGuest33:10

So I think that's critical is the clarity piece of it. 

Steve MorrealeHost33:12

And it's about having the conversations right. It's about as sergeants. 

Jack CauleyGuest33:16

Yes, you have to have those conversations. It comes down to communication. But clarity is something I think we miss. We just like, oh know what I mean, or they'll go out there and do it, and then, when they fall short of what the sergeant thinks, the sergeant's not happy and then no one's happy. So we have to be clear and intentional with our communication and our thoughts and expectations. 

Steve MorrealeHost33:32

I do so much training. I'm going to a training next week with about 40 or 50 sergeants from New England and one of the things that I hear sometimes is their police officers. They were trained, they know what to do and I'll say shame on you. That's not necessarily true. It has to come from your mouth. You have to tell them what the expectations are of you as a sergeant from your bosses and let it trickle down, Because if you don't, if you don't, set expectations, how can you hold people accountable for something they may not know? 

Jack CauleyGuest33:59

And one thing that I like to do is look at what the private sector is doing in some of the areas of leadership. And we know that they've done research and studies on these things, right, and it's no different. So we're talking about people, we're talking about leadership, and so I think that there's some pieces that we can learn from them, and that's one of them is clarity and leading people and what it takes. So they can learn from us. 

34:21

We can learn from them, and I think that goes back to what you were talking about being a learning organization. One of the things that I've looked at is Korn-Ferry, which is an organization that is consulting, and we are looking at and we are in the process right now of providing assessments for our command staff and myself. 

34:39

We're going to start it with Korn-Ferry assessments Wow. So it talks about the climate and then your style, your leadership style and how your leadership style affects the climate on your team. And so we're going to start with us and we're going to push it down to the sergeants and take our culture and then kind of refine it even to a more boiled down to the team, the team pieces of it, and so that we can all learn and we can all improve and be better at what we do? 

Steve MorrealeHost35:02

Yeah, because very often we don't know what we don't know, and if we think we know it all, then we're in the wrong business, and I think you're right. So it takes a little humility to accept that. By the same token, if you're constantly in a state of being willing for self-improvement, then this is a good step towards it. Jack, let me wind down. There's a couple of things I noted here. Let's talk about civilian staff and the value of civilian staff and whether or not some of the police officers that are doing work might be able to be replaced. The unions don't like this, but with some civilian specialists, is there any of that happening in your discussion? 

Jack CauleyGuest35:33

Well, number one. I think the professional staff are critical to the success of a police department. You know, like I mentioned before, I started as a dispatcher, so I have a little bit of different perspective on that. 

35:42

I think that in some organizations and policing organizations that maybe that piece, the professional staff, doesn't get the attention and leadership that they need. They are a different group of people. You have to approach them differently than you do the sworn staff, because they're different and we need to recognize that. But yes, to answer your question, so we have brought on two professional staff individual civilians to augment some of the work that we do out there with taking cold reports and things like that, to take some of the load off of our officers in the field, and that's worked out great we are very happy with that. 

36:15

And I can see that trend continuing in the policing profession for sure. 

Steve MorrealeHost36:19

What about analysis, crime analysis, those kinds of things, or mental health, or those adjunct jobs? 

Jack CauleyGuest36:24

All of it. We have a crime analyst, but our crime analyst actually the one prior to the one that we have now was a civilian, but we elected to go with a police officer as a crime analyst. It just fit the needs that we needed at the time. 

36:37

Our PIO is a civilian, a professional staff, so that works out well for us I think every department is going to be a little bit different and every function is going to be different, but I think that being open to ideas and different ways of doing things that fit the needs of your organization at the time is important. We originally thought, oh well, we're going to fill the crime analyst position with another civilian and we decided you know what? 

Steve MorrealeHost36:58

Yeah, joey is really good at it. Let's give him a shot, or a shot, right. 

37:01

Yeah, so that's what we're doing Good, good, all right Time and place, and personnel at that moment. Last thing I want to talk to you about is wellness, mental health. I know police departments across the world are going to many more people in crisis and sometimes you have a co-response, but there's just as many issues or concerns that we have about what our people see and how they may react to it, and that goes for civilian staff, communications and police. Talk about what you're doing. 

Jack CauleyGuest37:30

It's so important and I think it's a piece that our profession has missed for decades, and we're just now getting there. I'm glad we are, and I'm very, very happy to see that it's important. 

37:40

We actually have a pretty robust wellness program here. We have an eFit program where officers and professional staff can use an hour out of their day to work out, so that they have the time to do that. Based on all of those types of things, we have mandatory wellness check-ins every year. So every year, all the police officers and the dispatchers are required to check in with a police psychologist. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement38:03

All they have to do is go visit with them and say, hey, I'm here, I don't have anything to say or have an opportunity to talk, whatever they need. 

Jack CauleyGuest38:10

So we do that because if we don't make it mandatory, our thought is that it doesn't normalize it. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement38:15

So I go to it every year. 

Jack CauleyGuest38:17

We all go to it, so then it's just normal. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement38:19

So if somebody really is having an issue. 

Jack CauleyGuest38:21

they don't feel like they're special because they had to go see the police psychologist. So we all do it and we give them a number of visits to go back to the police psychologist if they need to or for any reason, whether it's ongoing issue or if they were on a scene that was traumatic. 

38:36

Maybe they have kids and it would involve a small child. We'll make sure that they have access Our peer support. We have peer support in that particular situation. Peer support would check in with the police officer and even the dispatcher, so they're involved in a call that was traumatic. 

Steve MorrealeHost38:49

Yes and say hey would you like. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement38:51

I just want to check it in, Are you okay? 

Jack CauleyGuest38:53

Remember we have a police psychologist you can meet with and those types of things. So we do that we feel that wellness is holistic. So it is about physical, it's about mental health Wellness. Mental health wellness is just as important. So we're always looking at that and I think it's something that's here to stay, and it's just as important as going to the range is your mental health and what resources that we're providing them. It's our responsibility to do that. 

39:17

The way I look at it is so we cannot control, for the calls that we go on, you know whether it's an armed robbery, a domestic aggravated assault, that type of thing. So you take a police officer who is working in a toxic environment and their mental health is struggling, they're struggling with it, and those two things collide, the chances of something going wrong increase. You take that same critical incident that we can't control. But what we can control for is providing an environment that is safe and secure, that is psychologically safe, that's supportive that police officer has the same situation, the chances of that having a successful outcome increases substantially, so that's one of the ways that we look at it. 

Steve MorrealeHost39:54

So let's wind down a bit and I'll ask you what's on your bucket list. What are you trying to do personally, Personally, what is it you want to do? 

Jack CauleyGuest40:00

I really want to continue to work to get the message out about the importance of culture within police organizations, the environments where police officers work. I want to be able to move our profession forward so that 10, 15 years from now, when somebody is on a podcast talking about this, it's normal that they're not talking about oh, there's that we need to change. We've already done it. You know it's already normalized. It's something we're doing, so I really want to. 

40:24

I'd like to use just my past experiences, kind of successes that we've had here and get the message out and help others and do what I can for that. 

Steve MorrealeHost40:31

What are you most proud of the group of people you're with and what they've accomplished in the last 10 years? Just three things. 

Jack CauleyGuest40:38

One, the fact that we were able to totally change our culture from one that was based on the traditional model to one that's a modern culture. That's number one. Two, the way that our team has embraced innovation and finding different ways to do and not being afraid to try something and fail. And then three, how they engage and interact with our community and how they've earned their trust every single day. I mean, it's amazing the feedback that I get. So I think those are the three things I'm proud of. A lot of things, but those three come to mind. 

Steve MorrealeHost41:07

That's good. So one thing we glossed over. We talked about Simon Sinek and the books that he's written, and one of them was the Infinite Game and your police department and some of the things you have done. Get credit. How amazing was that when you saw that this was something that would be included in a book by Sinek. 

Jack CauleyGuest41:27

Well, this was something that would be included in a book by Sinek. Well, it's pretty amazing and again it goes back to the work that everyone on our team has done to that point. But being highlighted in a book that Simon Sinek wrote on Infinite Game and how it relates to culture is something that I could have never imagined, and I'm proud of the work that our folks have done, and that's really the only reason we're in there, because they demonstrated that they could work to create. Create that are safe and secure for our team. 

Steve MorrealeHost41:51

When you think back on reading the book and being involved in it and the title the Infinite Game. What does that mean to you? The Infinite Game? 

Jack CauleyGuest41:59

I think that obviously Simon wrote that book not with policing top of mind right, I mean, we're included in the book, but really when you look at it and the title, the Infinite Game and what it means, is very much related to policing. And I think that if you take and Simon talks about it if you take a finite mindset and you are living in an infinite game, that it doesn't work out too well and I think there's lessons for us in policing that we can learn from that. For example, if we're just looking at our metrics of the number of tickets and arrests, that's a finite win or whatever you want to. That's finite. But look at the infinite piece of it. How have we affected our community long-term? Are we building their trust? That's infinite. You always have to build trust. It's every single day. Leadership is infinite. You can't just but we don't spike the ball and say, well, we're done, it continues to. You know, we work on it, it's intentional. So that infinite piece of it is so important. 

Steve MorrealeHost42:52

And I think we're not only can. 

Jack CauleyGuest42:54

Private sector can find themselves in trouble, if you will, if they have a finite mindset, an infinite game. But in policing, I think it's even more important. 

Steve MorrealeHost43:01

Yeah, I think the leader's job never, ever, ever stops. So last question if you had the chance to sit down and talk with somebody famous who is no longer here that has had an impact on the world, impact on policing, impact on relationships, who might that be? Could be a politician, could be a writer. 

Jack CauleyGuest43:17

I actually think it'd be my dad. My dad passed away when I was young and I didn't get to spend much time with him, and I know that where I am today is directly related to my parents, both my mom and my dad. But I'm fortunate to have my mom much longer, so I would like to spend time with my dad. He was a World War II vet, he was a war journalist and I know that I learned a lot of lessons that he had that he could pass on to me. 

Steve MorrealeHost43:40

Great, okay, let's finish with this question. What optimism do you have with this question? What optimism do you have? I know that Simon uses the word optimism what optimism do you have for policing in? 

Jack CauleyGuest43:50

the future. Where are we going? I'm very optimistic of where we're going. People talk a lot about the newer generation and they don't want to work 60 hours and things like that. 

43:57

No, they don't, and I think that's something that we can learn from. Maybe that wasn't the best thing to do is to work all the time. They do value work-life balance, but they're also. They're very much purpose-driven and they're very smart and they're very much willing to look at innovations and try something new and not be afraid. And I've been very impressed with how the newer generation and some of the people that have been around longer have worked together and have learned from each other. But I think it's a great time to start in the policing profession. I am somewhat envious. It's like I'd like to go back and start now, you know, because I do think that we're at a point in time now where the policing profession is going to see a lot of changes and it's going to be for the better. I think we're really going to be in a good place going forward. 

44:44

I believe that wholeheartedly. 

Steve MorrealeHost44:49

That's great. Well, jack, thank you so much for your time and for your energy and for your innovations and for sharing and your perspectives. It's been very, very valuable. You know that we get people who would listen from all over the world, not just our country, and I look forward to seeing what you have to do the one by one policing. When I put that in, guess what showed up? Castle Rock, that's it. So you're onto something and I think you get to spread the word and hopefully we can help in some small way. But thank you so much for your time. 

Jack CauleyGuest45:12

Thank you, Steve. It's been a pleasure visiting with you. I appreciate it. 

Steve MorrealeHost45:14

Thanks. That's another episode of The CopDoc Podcast in the can. Thanks for listening. There'll be more episodes coming. Reach out if you have anybody in mind that I should be talking to. Thank you very much. Stay safe for those of you who are doing the job. You run to danger when others run away, so stay safe and thank you. 

Intro/OutroAnnouncement45:31

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr. Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.