Redefining Law Enforcement Leadership with Colonel Matt Packard: Trust, Innovation, and Wellness

Season 6 - Episode 131

What if the key to effective policing is not just about enforcing the law but building trust within the community? We have an engaging conversation with Matt Packard, the Colonel of the Colorado State Patrol. With 24 years of service under his belt, Matt's journey offers a profound look into the Patrol's roles in traffic safety, counterterrorism, and beyond. From his initial aspirations to join the FBI to his influential roles within CALEA and the IACP, Matt's experiences provide a rich tapestry of insights into law enforcement leadership and organizational development.

Leadership is often about making tough decisions with limited information. In our discussion, Matt underscores the importance of decisiveness, humility, and the value of feedback in fostering an engaged and innovative workforce. We delve into the New Ideas for Research and Development (NERD) initiative, which empowers staff to contribute directly to leadership, illustrating how involving employees in problem-solving enhances organizational adaptability. The conversation highlights strategies for nurturing future leaders, addressing recruitment challenges, and implementing innovative solutions in hiring practices and academy structures.

Beyond enforcement, policing is about community engagement and trust-building. Matt shares poignant stories of the Colorado State Patrol's efforts to enhance public safety through visibility and approachability. We explore the holistic approach to officer wellness, integrating physical and mental health to foster a supportive organizational environment. By focusing on community needs and building a culture of trust, this episode offers invaluable insights into the broader role of policing and the critical importance of officer well-being. Tune in for a thought-provoking episode that redefines what it means to lead in law enforcement.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro-Outro : 0:02

Welcome to T he CopDoc P odcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia, and other government agencies. And now please join Dr. Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on T he Cop Doc Podcast.

Steve Morreale: 0:33

Well, hello everybody, Steve Morreale, coming to you from South Carolina today and we are headed to the Rocky Mountain State and we're talking to the big shot at the Colorado State, Colorado, Tell me how you say it, Matt?

Steve Morreale: 0:45

Matt Packard Guest Depends

Steve Morreale: 0:45

on who you ask, but the safe bet around here is Colorado.

Steve Morreale: 0:48

Colorado. That's the way I said it. I wasn't sure because I hear this Colorado. So we're talking to Matt Packard. He's the colonel of the State Patrol out there and I appreciate you taking the time, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. You are the first State Patrol chief that I have spoken to, so you're unique.

Matt Packard: 1:05

Well, thanks for having me. I'm honored to fly the flag for my fellow colonels from around the country.

Steve Morreale: 1:10

That's great. That's great and glad to have you. So let's get started. What I'd like to do is to have you tell the listeners about the patrol. How big is it? How is it broken up? It looks like you've been a colonel for several years now and you've got 24 years on the Colorado State Patrol. Tell us about your history.

Matt Packard: 1:29

Yeah, thanks. I started out of college. I actually went to college and got an accounting degree. As a young man I thought I wanted to go be an FBI agent and so I thought get a degree in accounting, I'll go be a trooper, a police officer, for a couple of years and then try to be, go try to get hired by the FBI. And my favorite way to describe it is I was 22 years old. They gave me a car that went about 130 miles an hour, lights and said go find bad guys. And I just fell in love with the work of the Colorado State Patrol and loved the opportunities that it gave me to make a difference in the troop that I was assigned to then around the state.

Matt Packard: 2:02

I haven't looked back a single time and over the course of my career, the 24 years or so, I've got to do a lot of different things. One of the advantages of being in the patrol is pretty diverse organization, as far as you know, mission and opportunity, certainly a traffic safety focused agency. But I've had the opportunity to different ranks. You know, work the road. I've been to crash reconstruction. I spent time in our Homeland Security section working on counterterrorism efforts and I oversaw our hazardous materials section. So I played firefighter as a state trooper a little bit. I split the baby there, but really we're moving around and be in different parts of the state, rural parts and the urban areas. I've had a truly remarkable career and in fact I was just commenting to somebody the other day If you'd have told me 24 years ago the places that I've been able to go, the people I've been able to meet and the opportunities that this career would provide me, I'd have probably tried to arrest you for driving while drunk or something it's been remarkable.

Steve Morreale: 2:55

Okay so, M att. So let's get this straight you were turned down by the FBI. Is that what I'm hearing?

Steve Morreale: 3:06

That's good, that's all right, that's all right with me. So, myself being a DEA agent, and certainly I have been to your state a number of times and it is so unique and you're very active. I understand that you were a commissioner with CALEA I want to talk about that. And also you're now a board member for the IACP, of which I've been a member for a long, long time. So let's talk about that. How did those things that take you away from Colorado State Patrol, how does it help? By having those connections and having that ability to look at other organizations?

Matt Packard: 3:35

I appreciate the question If I can. I figured out early on in my career that you know assuming it's legal and moral and all of those things that I will find a better way to be around it if I just say yes and learn from new opportunities. I figured out, if I postured myself in a way, people could call and ask me to help or try something new or be exposed to a different conversation. It would force me to get uncomfortable and force me to grow, and that's really that's kind of what happened for me. I found myself as a major brand new promoted major in the Colorado State Patrol and our colonel at the time was involved in the state and provincial division of the IACP and he was going and he'd been given the opportunity to brief out with the state and provincial division, the fellow chiefs and colonels from around the country about our role in the theater shooting that happened in Aurora back in 2012.

Intro-Outro : 4:23

And.

Matt Packard: 4:23

I got to tell you my involvement in that was pretty minimal and I knew I had some friends that were involved in it. A much different way. I supervised some people that were involved in it. But I said sure, and I found myself literally four or five months after that I'm standing at the podium in a room full of state police colonels and chiefs and talking about stuff. And I, how did I find myself here?

Matt Packard: 4:43

I remember thinking that, but then being able to sit in the back of the room and listening to these folks solve problems and share stories, and it became readily apparent to me that, for the good of my professional development, I should figure out a way to sit in these rooms more frequently. But then I started hearing about what Texas DPS was doing or the Massachusetts State Police were doing, how they were solving problems, and I was able to bring those back literally on that first trip and find new ways to work on different things. And the same thing happened with CALEA. We were an accredited agency and a friend of mine was the chief of the New Mexico State Police that was rolling off and said, hey, if you're interested, I'm going to submit your name as a possible commissioner.

Matt Packard: 5:28

I remember taking an account of my day job and what I was starting to learn and be involved in an IACP, and I remember that Just don't say no, Figure out how to make this work. And then I have to tell you I so enjoy the work that I do with CALEA Incredible people but it's a way to learn about different agencies from a different part of the country and all different sizes. I have the opportunity to learn about state agencies. I have the opportunity to learn about agencies with four or five, six police officers and the different challenges. And every single time I go to a conference to review my slate of agencies, I'm taking notes and finding ways to help make our organization and the grand scheme of things is pretty big far and away from the biggest but a perspective from different parts of the country and different sizes is incredibly valuable.

Steve Morreale: 6:06

Talking to Matt Packard, and he is the colonel of the Colorado State Patrol and one of the things I think is so many people very often become myopic we accept status quo and we don't want to push the envelope. So I'm curious, since we talk an awful lot about leadership, how you found yourself being willing to take risks, take on new challenges, not say no. Exactly what you told me and how you learned along the way I think it started.

Matt Packard: 6:31

I mean, I give a lot of credence to my dad, like so many people do and my grandfather was, you know, of the greatest generation and talk about how they worked through problems, and listen to my dad as he in a completely different field he was in the IT industry and how he dealt with supervisors that he liked and the ones that he didn't. So I kind of had this foundation from the lessons from them. I'm fortunate my first sergeant as a state trooper has become a true mentor. I've become a great friend In fact. I just left the meeting. He's the sergeant major of the state patrol with us now Continues to have an outsized influence on my leadership style and ability and what I can do.

Matt Packard: 7:07

But I think the most vivid memory is I learned from him how important it is to get dirty with your folks. I will forever remember being held accountable for him. He'd tell you that he didn't yell at me as bad as I remember, but I said you made your point, sir. But I also remember, most significantly, climbing up in a spring caught out of snowstorm, climbing up the hill trying to figure out how to investigate a rollover DUI crash and having my sergeant right there with me stopping along the way, getting snowy and muddy, I just how important that really is. And then that was the foundation. But you keep finding, finding more folks.

Matt Packard: 7:41

I could tell you, Steve, I didn't give it as much, I didn't really understand it until I was the colonel, but as a major I worked for my lieutenant colonel, my boss. Every year come performance management time he would say very nice things of me, but he said, Matt, you've got to take more risk. You have to be willing to put yourself out there, make a decision that you're not 100% confident about. That's an interesting thing in our profession, where we're willing to do risk and where we're not. And I really didn't appreciate it until I was sitting in this chair. And you learn real fast that you're never going to have all the answers and people need you to make a decision and the courage to act, and then courage to admit when you screwed it up too and then fix that as head on A lot of influence.

Steve Morreale: 8:23

Yeah, let me talk about that. I love hearing what you have. You exude a sense of humility and, by the same token, a willingness to learn from others, which is so important. You don't know all of the answers. We don't know all of the answers. We don't know what the hell the questions are a lot of times. But that idea of risk is important.

Steve Morreale: 8:46

And you know, what strikes me, mac, is this that police are risk seekers in a lot of ways. We're not afraid to face somebody down with a gun, with a knife, whatever that is, but very often you get in the seat that you're in and there's some risk aversion like, oh, I don't know if I want to take that chance. And what you just said about decision making I do an awful lot of work with decision making. Unfortunately, you are virtually never going to have 100% of the facts, but you have to make a decision. And what you just said and I'm really appreciative of you saying that what you said was, when you make a mistake or when you take that step forward and you find more information, you can sort of retool, you can tweak things a little bit, you can say you're sorry, but you can move forward. Is that a fair statement?

Matt Packard: 9:22

Of course it is a fair statement.

Matt Packard: 9:24

I think you I mean humility is a powerful thing, and when you realize that we're just people, we're just people trying to do the best, and I think people generally don't like to lose.

Matt Packard: 9:35

I'm like I don't like sports analogies too and we talk about risk in the sense of personal harm or things that maybe that are commonly associated with physical risk and those are so easy, generally speaking, in a service-oriented profession like policing, people are already ready to do that.

Matt Packard: 9:52

You come into this profession with your eyes wide open, but it doesn't mean you want to lose ever and you don't want to lose in court, you don't want to lose in success, and so sometimes the easy answer is to wait until you have like 99.7% of the information and then make the decision. But the problem is that takes too long. You ask people what they're looking for in a leader and you get this dozen, couple dozen traits, but I think decisiveness and confidence is on the top of those lists and that means you got to be willing to take risks and do that, and one of my favorite sayings is failure to make a decision is a decision in and of itself. Yes, if you want to maintain influence and maintain the confidence of your people, then you got to make the decision. Sometimes, when it's yours to make, have the courage to make it.

Steve Morreale: 10:34

So I'm certain that along the way in 24 years you have had top down autocratic leaders that don't want to be challenged and don't want to be questioned. And you sit in a meeting, you're being told what to do and you're rarely asked for your own opinion, and you know how many times that's happened as a young trooper. We don't pay you to think do what you're told. Now you're sitting in the seat and I presume we all go through a series of understanding bad leaders and good leaders and we learn from both what to do and what not to do. As you came into the position, how do you develop others? How do you set the stage in conversation, in meetings, to say my expectation is not for you to say yes to me and agreed with me, but to give me feedback. My expectation is, in other words, I honor your experience and I need your experience to make better decisions. Talk about that.

Matt Packard: 11:28

Structure is a chain of command is a real can be a real inhibitor. I think in the moment, in those crisis situations, it has a place, but I think the most successful organizations are those that have found a way to engage the minds and the voice of the people that make up the organization. I so appreciate this question to think and how to talk about it. I will frequently remind folks that nobody accidentally came to work at the Colorado State Patrol, like nobody accidentally decided to go through a six month background process and commit all this time to just get hired. Whether you're going to be a trooper, a communications officer, a professional staff member, you worked hard to get here and that speaks nothing of the sacrifice, all the challenges that come with the profession Noble and worthwhile, it ain't easy, right, and so I think from a leadership perspective, yeah, of course I've worked for people that you know. If we wanted you to have an idea, we'd have issued it to you. Yeah, I've been there, but what I've found in my personal growth is those folks that let me know where they wanted me to go generally and then asked me to figure it out. I was much more passionate about the work in that moment because I was personally invested in it. I was willing to give more for it and I, in this role now, I have found so much value in asking the question.

Matt Packard: 12:43

You know this state is mountains and valleys and farming communities and it's got everything everything but a beach, unless you count the reservoirs.

Matt Packard: 12:51

Some of those do, and I didn't grow up in all those places, but I have troopers that know how to work the road in those spots.

Matt Packard: 12:58

They know how to solve the problems in those locations and shame on me if I think that for my chair in Denver can do that for them and so we should have a culture that says here, here's what our goals are for the organization, the top level. We want to be better at saving people's lives tomorrow than we are today. Here's some rules for you to follow, but tell me what you need and how you want to do this to accomplish that objective, and what you find is that we are a more nimble, we are more successful and we have more engaged people than we would have otherwise, and you learn some really neat stuff. One of the things that we implemented because you know we have the state patrol so there's a process and a rule for everything was trying to find a way to get new ideas, and so the joke is it's called the NERD, but it's the New Ideas for Research and Development as I think what it's meant for.

Matt Packard: 13:42

But everybody that works for the state patrol can send in an idea that they want to see and get to flush it out, and I'll tell them. It comes directly to me, an idea that they want to see and get to flush it out, and I'll tell them. It comes directly to me, I'll talk about it with our executive staff and then every once in a while we'll have to say look, this isn't going to work and here's why it's illegal, right, or we tried this and this is why, for whatever reason, but nine out of 10 of those were said. Let me look into this and get back to you. And what I found. We've changed policy. We've bought new equipment, changed tactics, because we're believing in the people that are doing the work and giving them an opportunity to sort through all the hurdles.

Matt Packard: 14:13

Yeah, I take passion In an organization our size. Not everybody's a believer yet right, and we've been doing this for two or three years, but we're getting better. Four years maybe we're getting better at that and it's pretty fun. It's pretty fun to count the successes and changes and say, hey, you like that.

Steve Morreale: 14:34

That say, hey, you like that, that's because that's Tom Jones's idea from Lamar, that's why we're doing it this way. Yeah, sharing the credit is really important. It seems to me you said it earlier that it takes so long and it's so hard to go through background checks and do the PT and do the training. So we hire people and generally we hire them for intellect, and it's offensive to me that we basically say, yeah, do what you're told and shut up. Nobody asked for your opinion, and it sounds like you're in a completely different place because we hire for that and we like curiosity. I love the idea, and this is what you're saying, I think is, instead of solving problems, bring us a problem, let's talk about that problem, let's use your ideas. And so there's so many things that you're saying and I love chatting with you. We're talking to Matt Packard and he is the colonel of the Colorado State Patrol. You said something a little bit earlier.

Steve Morreale: 15:15

Communication can be a problem at times, especially in a big organization, and sometimes you're sending what your desires are through second and third levels. But tell me how you feel. It's important, except in critical incidents, to explain why whenever possible. Why are we changing this? Why are we doing that? Just why you know we're going to talk about Simon Sinek and start with why We'll talk about the curve. But I always wonder why people don't take the time to explain. Hey, everybody, this is what's going on, this is how we've thunk this through and this is why.

Matt Packard: 15:51

I frequently will push back on the concept of the changes of like. However old you are when you were born dictates how you think or what motivates you, and I'd like to think that I'm different than the people that I grew up with, for whatever reason. I preface that by saying I don't think it's as easy as saying it's a generational thing, but what I do think is today is different. It's just different about how people are motivated, regardless of their age or where they come from. I think maybe now more than in the last couple decades, to understand the value of what you're about to embark upon and how that impacts the community that you're serving. And so when I say that we're going to go and do whatever the mission is, or we're going to make this change, I got a couple of people that will come back and say, yes, sir, that's, you're the chief. I mean, I fight against that all the time. Whatever you say, boss, it's your call. So okay, well, thank you. And there's no time for that.

Matt Packard: 16:43

But what I also find, when I take the time to say this is where this came from and this is what we're trying to solve, you can watch people's heads like change angle.

Matt Packard: 16:51

They start to think. Not only do they start to think about how they're going to implement whatever change you're talking about, they start to problem solve as well, through their own filters and experience and all of those things. And what they do is they say, all right, I'm on that because you think about this and maybe we could also do this, and I might have come to the table with a solution that I came from my inner circle or my circle of influence, and I come to that and they come and they add to that and pretty soon my two-prong solution now has four and we're all going to work on all four of those and we're all invested in that, and so it creates belief, it creates empowerment. There's so much more and you benefit from the experience that these folks have. And I go back to why they came to this line of work. People that do this are passionate and love it. They came to this for a reason.

Steve Morreale: 17:37

They're here to serve, right. They want to serve, yeah, and they want to help.

Matt Packard: 17:40

Let's use that to our advantage and to their growth and, at the end of the day, guess what happens Is 99 out of 100 times the public. The community we're here to protect, to be a part of, is better for it.

Steve Morreale: 17:51

That's great. It's inspiring to be able to talk like this and to speak with you. Let me go to a staff meeting that you have a command staff meeting. How are they different? Do you find yourself listening and, more importantly, asking probative questions to get other people engaged?

Matt Packard: 18:09

And so, structure-wise, I'll have a weekly meeting with our executive team and then we have a less frequent, usually bi-monthly, with our majors and that group's about entirely that group's about 15 people Twice a year. We'll have captains and above and that ends up being close to 70 or 80 people in that room. And what we'll try to do in the smaller circles I said I've always got solutions to whatever you want to solve. I'll do that if I have to. Let's work through this, and so we might put out a prompt to say we're going to work on this issue. I had a conversation today. I said here's an issue that I've identified. We have the complacency viruses within our organization right now and here's why I think that so let's problem solve this issue. And so in that command staff we'll put it on an agenda, we'll put it out and say let's talk about this issue. And it's amazing what happens and sometimes you got to throw some kindling out there to help start it. But what my experience is you'll find in that room of 15 folks you'll find and I've worked really hard to build that command staff that's the first thing I say to when we promote them is that you're here because you have a voice that's smart and you're not afraid to use it. So we don't got time for you to get comfortable. Get in here and tell us what we need to do and what you watch.

Matt Packard: 19:17

Depending on the topic, it depends on who that person is. They get taller in their chair, they're leaning into the desk and they're talking with passion about whatever we're starting to solve and it's the neatest thing to experience and they're convincing their peers or they're being changed by their peers' influence. And we walk out of there and sometimes we're spitting mad at each other, slamming our hands on the table. When it's all said and done, we've grown, we're a little bit closer, I'd like to think, and our organization is better protected in a lot of different contexts, and that can replicate in all those groups. I will intentionally try to speak last. Let it go and not try to let my position influence the conversation, unless it needs to, I suppose. Really, let that come up and it's amazing what you can do. I look back over my time. We've changed. It's pretty cool.

Steve Morreale: 20:04

You know, you talked about kindling and I'd never heard that. And in a lot of ways we're planting seeds and those seeds have to germinate. We have to put some fertilizer on them sometimes and sometimes we have to water them once in a while for them to grow. What do you see your role and the role of your executive staff in developing others?

Matt Packard: 20:24

I think you have to give people the opportunity to make their own decisions, give them the freedom to make mistakes. I think we present direction highest level like this is what we want to accomplish and depending on, like our executive staff, what they they're. This is where we're trying to go, and I want them to develop the solution, to develop the tactic, to develop all of those things, and so our role is to provide them the support and the ability to make the decision, and then I guess it would be the support to implement that decision, whatever at that level and sometimes it's at the comm officer level, or it's at the trooper level, sometimes it's a major who's overseeing a million dollar budget that wants to take on a little bit of risk and needs a little bit extra, and we give them the latitude to do that and watch them grow. When I was given the opportunity to take this job on, I was asked a similar question so how do you build the next chief?

Matt Packard: 21:15

What are you going to do to help grow leaders in the organization? Part of that is well, I'm going to send people to the IACP. I'm going to send people to other agencies. I'm going to have them be exposed to what's going on in the other place. But when they come home, I'm going to give them the opportunity to make decisions. I'm not going to take them from them I might help inform them but I'm going to give them the opportunity to figure it out and be successful. I think that's the best thing that you can do. Give them an opportunity to fit.

Steve Morreale: 21:40

Yeah, you went back and so my best boss was somebody who it sounds like you Sergeant, who was kind of pushing you but giving you wide berth and latitude. And I remember I'm just saying Matt, my own experience. I remember this guy calling me in I was with DEA and he said, S teve, I need you to go over to such and such a city and I want you to make a case. And he stopped and I said what kind of case, it doesn't matter to me. Whatever case you think is important over there, go and mix it up with the locals and with the state and figure out who the pain in the asses are over there and do it and come back if you have any questions. And that was so liberating to say. That's it, John, thank you. And it helped me grow because it was basically him, or your boss, giving you the confidence to say go figure it out.

Matt Packard: 22:23

Very similar stories. Go, solve this problem. I'm working on this, but I'm going to do something that we've never done before, and then I might need your credit card. Ok, go, go, try. It's empowering, and it's something I'm a firm believer in, is give our folks the opportunity to solve the problems, because that's why they came here. So how big is the organization.

Steve Morreale: 22:40

How many sworn?

Matt Packard: 22:41

So we're about 800 sworn when we're all the way staffed, maybe closer to 850. Now, like a lot of people, we're fighting to get back to where we want to be, but on the trooper side that's about the right number. We also have their peace officers, but limited authority from our ports of entry. That do commercial motor vehicles, and that's about 130 when they're fully staffed as well.

Steve Morreale: 22:58

Okay.

Matt Packard: 22:59

On the scoring side.

Steve Morreale: 22:59

Okay, and how's recruiting?

Matt Packard: 23:01

We're back. We changed a lot of the ways, changed the way we hire and do our academies, and so we're starting a new academy every 12 weeks right now.

Matt Packard: 23:08

And that's really flexing the organization. It's again it's finding a way to solve a problem. We haven done this before and so it's coming back. I'm fortunate you know the administration here, not to speak politically, but they've been very supportive of us and given us resources to go out and try new things, to get folks that are in here, and I will tell you that I think the heart of all the things that have been so hard over the last couple of years people talk about in the profession what they need is help, because the work is still there and they need help to do it, and so that's really been a focus for us.

Steve Morreale: 23:36

Let's talk about. I saw that you were in Castle Rock for a while and Jack Colley is now the chief of police there and I'm sure you I know you know him and Krishang and a number of people who've talked with me about the curve and that organization attempting and I think positively on impacting organizational culture. How does that weigh with you? How do you drive that through the organization?

Matt Packard: 23:59

I actually live in Calciroc, so I like to remind you.

Matt Packard: 24:03

He's my chief, yes, and I can't tell you the outsized influence he has had on that police department, that community, from a trooper that started working in that community many years ago and a resident that benefits from the culture that he has developed there in Calciroc. And he and I both serve on the board together at the IACP. And it was about a year oh I don't know, maybe two years ago now that he and I were having dinner in Washington DC after an IACP meeting that I had known about his connection to Simon. I mean he invited me to one of those calls that I know you've talked to Chris and Jack about. I mean he invited me to one of those calls that I know you've talked to Chris and Jack about. It has been incredible, I don't say no. And pretty soon you find yourself on a Zoom call with like-minded people and people like Simon Sinek to talk about what needs to happen in our profession.

Matt Packard: 25:02

And I've always been a believer in the power of words and specific words and of the things, of the so many things that you take away I've taken away from my time and working with being a part of that, of the curve. It's the value of words when you're setting culture. When I talk about the Colorado State Patrol, there's two things that our folks will hear from me a lot. First one is that you should be really proud of what you do for a living, and I don't ever want you to forget that when somebody asks you for what you do, wherever you are in the Colorado State Patrol, that your response is with pride you work for the Colorado State Patrol and your job is to save lives every day. And then we're going to find ways to save lives and we do that by seizing every opportunity we possibly can to provide service. And then going back to the curve, when you talk about the importance of policing versus law enforcement and those are two different words Like there is a law enforcement component of policing, but there is so much more to policing than enforcing the law, and we talk about that internally. It still happens where we celebrate the most DUI arrests or to celebrate the most seatbelt citations, and that's great.

Matt Packard: 25:53

But what really are we trying to do? Is we're trying to stop people from dying at the hands of an impaired driver, and I will never have enough troopers on the road to catch every impaired driver, whether it's alcohol or drugs. I just won't, we won't have it. So we have got to do a better job of leaning in to the engagement and the trust building part of the policing profession. And I think the way I like to talk about it is I can talk about what we're trying to accomplish in the agency and then give folks the latitude to develop their own solutions. But just realize that the more friends we have, the more trust and confidence we have legitimacy, the more successful we're going to be.

Matt Packard: 26:29

And I think the easiest way to do that is to explain. That is when I walk into a room wearing my state trooper costume, my speech is written for me, right, like yeah, they'll say all right, so you want me to do all these smart things behind the wheel? Put my seatbelt, put my seatbelt on, put my cell phone down they already know what I'm going to say. So if I take time in that relationship to build trust and then ignite kindling again, ignite that fire in somebody else that can take our message to the next gym or to the family room and infect their friends with our passion and belief, we will be better off.

Matt Packard: 27:03

And the same thing happens internally. And you do that by being visible, by being present by not staring at your cell phone in meetings. It's to be there in the moment and hear from each other and impart passion and belief in each other, so that we can go on and let that ripple extend out. I think that's so important. We're never going to I'm going down my rabbit hole on law enforcement, but we're never going to force our way out of our problems. That's a component to it. But we've got to build believers and trusted partners to do that as well, internally and externally.

Steve Morreale: 27:32

So, with everything that you have experienced, and coming in to be the chief of the Colorado State Patrol when you first walked in, what are you most proud of that you had an impact on changing.

Matt Packard: 27:47

When I came on as the chief I mean we were a strong organization my predecessor, who's a friend. One of the things that he told me I got a couple of things I'd like to share with you on this topic. And one of the things that he told me I got a couple of things I'd like to share with you on this topic. But one of the things he told me was he goes, I feel like I've got you some race cars. We built the garage. I haven't built the drivers for you yet and, as a brand new, my rank is colonel and statute on the chief. In my first couple of years I had the opportunity to promote. We had three retirements, two new lieutenant colonels, and so we have three of those positions. In the first two times the first time I had two people put in for that out of 10 eligible, and the second time I had one. Now I will tell you that the guy that put in for it was the right guy. It's timely he's retiring tomorrow, but it's timely because we did the process to promote his replacement and all the three of the eligible people put in for it and they were great, like the panels that came back, and so I mean, it's not about. What I'm prideful of is I've got a group of people that are ready, willing and able to step on and take on that new role, and they're good. Like, it was a tough choice to pick who that next lieutenant colonel is, and so I think we've developed these folks that are capable and willing to jump into that, and I'm proud of that. And I'm proud because whoever replaces me, those decision makers are going to have really good options and that's pretty neat to think about. So I'm proud of that. But more so and I'll go back I remember being really excited and had an idea of what I wanted to accomplish as the chief, and we rolled out a strategic plan.

Matt Packard: 29:17

I was promoted in December of 2017, and I brought the command staff together in 2018, all people I'd known and worked with over the years and together we built a strategic plan and we were all in pushing hard and made a lot of success in 2018. And then, in March of 2019, we had a corporal that was killed in the line of duty and Dan Groves was killed during a major snowstorm in eastern Colorado. Well, dan obviously wasn't the first trooper killed in the line of duty, but he would have been the fourth since 2015 for us, and all in very similar situations, and my predecessor, with the help of the governor, put some stuff in place to help prevent this from occurring again. But it wasn't sticking, and so we were. It's funny now. It's funny not in the ha-ha way, I suppose, but sitting with my chief of staff in early 2019, talking about okay, we got through the first year, let's build the plan for the next year to keep us growing and have ideas of where we wanted the patrol to go.

Matt Packard: 30:13

And then Dan was killed and we said, okay, we got to recover as an agency and we started to work through that in March and then we were still recovering but we were back thinking about tomorrow again and less about today. And in June of 2019, will Modane, another trooper, was killed in Eastern Colorado. So we lost two troopers, one in March, one in June and if the first one didn't knock us to our knees, the second one sure as hell did. What was going on in the agency was remarkable. People that you know, you could be on social media and we're eating each other alive about. Why are we doing it this way? What's wrong with us? It was incredible to watch. On one side, we're eating each other up, we're eating the bosses up like how can you let this happen? And then we're pissed off as all get out and all the idiot drivers and all the stuff that can go on.

Matt Packard: 31:02

Over the next six months, 12 months, we were able to lean into this issue and empower all of us to fix the problem and to lean in and figure out what we can do to be safer, and one of the things that we start, like safety starts with me, and then I am first responsible for my safety. And we talked about not getting shot doing building searches, but yet I'll walk across a major interstate. We were willing to take that risk, but it's my job. It's my job to be responsible, make better decisions first and then be prepared. That was when we talk about the nerd I've mentioned before went and met with literally every member in this entire organization, all over the state and said tell me what you want me to do to make you safer, to make you more capable of being safe at work.

Matt Packard: 31:45

And we had pages and pages of ideas and then we implemented so many of them. And the culture you talk about a point of pride. I don't know. I've not worked in any other police agency, to be honest with you, but I'm not sure I've ever seen an agency be able to shift culture as quickly as we were, and the culture that we shifted was one that I can confidently say has saved members' lives. That's a really neat thing to say and it also created a body of people that believe at all levels of this organization. They have a say in our direction and influence in our success, and that's a pretty cool, powering place to work when everybody believes that.

Steve Morreale: 32:21

What I'm hearing and this is Matt Packard, we're talking to him, he's of the Colorado State Patrol. I'm hearing that you're allowing an ownership stake. You know, you can go to a place. When you and I drive up to a house, you can kind of look is that owned or is that rented? You understand, because there's pride in ownership and very often you sit back as a boss and say am I allowing the people who work for me, for us, to have an ownership stake, that they are invested? We're investing in them and they're invested in their organization.

Steve Morreale: 32:50

And it sounds like you're doing that because one of the things that I was thinking as you were telling that story about two horrible deaths and the distraction that come from that at first. But the leader has to eventually say, ok, we're going to deal with this. Where do we go from here? Let's get back on track. What can we do? It sounds like that's something you do and that's cyclical. Don't you think, matt, that sometimes you have to sit there? You're distracted from COVID, and I remember being a boss in academia and you say, well, I've been distracted, but we're taking our eye off the ball. Can we put our eyes back on the ball? The leader has to do that eventually. Come back to where are we going. I see your head shaking. Tell me what you're thinking.

Matt Packard: 33:29

Yeah, I think my number one priority is to give our people the opportunity to be safe in a dangerous job, to give them the skills and ability to do that. I also have a responsibility to make sure the organization achieves its mission. And that mission is achieved when our people are confident, safe and empowered to do their work. And so you can't have one with the other.

Matt Packard: 33:47

You talk about that as we're coming out of the line of duty deaths, working through that as an organization.

Matt Packard: 34:00

And then we went right into 2020, right where COVID starts and then all of the even before George Floyd came out like, if you recall, there was a lot of angst and unrest over how government was dealing with that.

Matt Packard: 34:05

And then we were down there dealing with some incredible challenges in those communities and you talked about your responsibility, like I got, to support them in those moments so they can deal with that and be safe and have all of the skills, tools and abilities to manage the unrest.

Matt Packard: 34:18

But then we also have a responsibility to listen to those voices. That was a really interesting leadership challenge as well, in one token having our folks that are out there on the line being berated night after night after night, being hurt, and then you have this responsibility to listen to those voices also communicate that to our folks, and I go right back to some of those same lessons. You do that by talking to them, and they don't like every decision you make when you're a boss, but we talked about explaining the why, going back and say, well, I get it, but here's why? And having that conversation, and that turned out to be such a valuable lesson and proof in leading an organization, coming out of what happened in 2020. And it goes back to the value of groups like the Curve, where you can talk and bounce ideas off folks to help collectively rebuild the culture of not only your own agency but of a profession.

Steve Morreale: 35:07

So is Matt Packard, the big shot at Colorado State Patrol. Is your agency counting the right thing? In other words, I understand that we count beans how many arrests, how many car stops and how many warnings but how do you capture some of the other things that your people do the relationship building, the meetings, the training, those kinds of things?

Matt Packard: 35:28

We're better at counting than we used to be. I will tell our folks. I'm going to answer this in a couple of ways. I will tell our folks that there's only one number I care about, and this is symbolic in our agency. When you talk about arrests and tickets and those types of things, the only number I care about is how many people are dying that were responsible for keeping that happening. So I pay attention to that and I will help you understand where that is and what that number means and what factors are leading to that, and so I want to provide our members with good, solid data so that they can then use their experience and expertise and passion to impact.

Matt Packard: 36:00

The one thing that I am paying attention to and counting from a data perspective, More in line with, I think, what your question is how were we received? What's our level of trust and the confidence of the public that we serve? How do we measure that? And I think there's a couple of different ways to do that. First and foremost is you got to be visible and you got to be willing, at all levels of the organization, to take feedback informally, and so that means that you have to go into a room and be willing to listen, and the chief has to be willing to do that, but so does the trooper, Because in our neighborhood I might have a trooper assigned to three counties in a shift and he's probably the only trooper that lives in that county.

Matt Packard: 36:36

So whether he's wearing Eagles or he's, you know, in his first year, to that person, they are the state patrol and that is their entire influence and opinion of our agency. So that relationship has to matter. We have to invest. Is there a measure to that? I don't think so, A numerical measure. But there is an assessment of how many friends, confidants, how often are you getting talked to? How many people? How often are they coming to you to help solve a problem, whether it's policing related or otherwise, because you've built a trusted relationship and that's perhaps easier to measure locally. But you have to ask the community as well and you do surveys and ask questions.

Steve Morreale: 37:11

I was just going to ask you do that.

Matt Packard: 37:13

Yeah, we do every every two years, and nowhere in that survey do we ask how many tickets do you want us to write? What we do ask is do we make you feel safer? Yes, and do these activities that we do make you feel safer? Do you see us enough off the road? Those types of questions.

Steve Morreale: 37:30

Do you find if we're approachable?

Matt Packard: 37:31

Yes, I don't use those words, although I've listened to one of your previous conversations and I like that question. I think it was Jack that asked that question. I really like that, but, yeah, like the other part of that is what do you want us to work?

Steve Morreale: 37:44

on Right. I want to know what do you need from us in the front office when you're down there as a resident trooper? Somewhere you say what do you need from us? How can we help you? What are the issues that you're dealing with? What's important to you? Those are important questions that many times we don't ask.

Matt Packard: 38:02

Right, yes, I mean, this is Robert Peel, right at its core. Tell me what you want. How do you want to be policed, and let me try to provide that level of service to you, and we will be better for it. And I think the measure is how much engagement do you get right? The answers are important, but if the public doesn't bother to take the time to answer your survey, then they don't think that you can solve their problems, and so the willingness of the people to come to you with their problems is a really good measure as well. That's great.

Steve Morreale: 38:32

So we need to wind down. There were a couple of things that came at me and I'm hearing and I've read about your focus on officer wellness. Safety, for sure, but officer wellness, because so many of the things that you or are asked to do, your organization is asked to do, we get called on to see things that are hard to unsee and that other people never see and that has a potential to hurt inside. It's that silent injury. So talk about your focus with the CSP on officer wellness, trooper wellness.

Matt Packard: 39:02

Yeah, there's three things that really highlighted this for me. And then to talk about what we're doing. So first one I was I don't remember what rank I was, but a guy that I had known for many years of my career was short version. He got arrested in morning rush hour for driving under the influence, driving our police car in his uniform. I remember thinking, wow, I heard that he was struggling. You know some self-reflection about man. I wish I would have handled this interaction with him seven years ago differently. I wonder if I kind of saw something right. But we didn't. But I also remember I distinctly remember that next morning about being embarrassed about what he did, how important it was for me to put on a uniform and go, get in a car and represent the organization the way it needed to be represented for the organization's own well-being. I talked about my mentor. Well, my mentor broke had mental health concerns and has been very open about it, and I watched a guy that was a rock in the middle of everything and had dealt with incredible tragedy throughout his life. I remember thinking, if it got to him, there's a whole lot more of us that are going to struggle from the mental perspective. And then I remember and he's a lieutenant colonel with me now we were talking about physical well-being and we were talking about we were having an argument within the command staff I wasn't the chief at the time about whether or not we should have a pass-fail physical assessment in what physical well-being meant and what Josh reminded me of and Josh was a college football player sports were things he goes. Every time I've ever done a push-up in my life, it was punishment. Every time I've run, it was punishment. And so we're hoping that people are going to get fit to come in and take our test and everything that we asked them to do was probably punishment to them growing up, and so it's already motivated a person to be strong. You're not going to trick anybody into getting physically fit and believe in that by punishing them with push-ups, and so that really informed me, all of these things informed.

Matt Packard: 40:44

What we need to do in the Colorado State Patrol and in the profession is to provide true holistic wellness, because everything about us is connected. If your heart isn't physically well, then your brain won't be either. Your mental health, all of that is going to deteriorate. That's the thing. And if your brain isn't well, everything else goes physically as well. We are a system that is dependent upon other systems within our body and so, as an organization, we need to provide and my standard line with our we've got a captain overseeing wellness is I want you to provide so many resources and so many opportunities for folks to take care of themselves mentally, spiritually, physically, financially. I want you to have so many things that when they decide they need something, they have to consciously make a decision to avoid what we're providing them. To be better, it's got to be right there in the face, and there are different schools of thoughts about requiring certain screens and those types of things, and I've gone back and forth, but really, where I am now is I want it to be. You have to make the decision to avoid what I'm providing for you, and I'll tell you what.

Matt Packard: 41:45

For me, what happened? It came after George Floyd and the protests and the exposure and the stress that several of our members were dealing with and the stress that several of our members were dealing with, and we found something new. Our shop came in and said, hey, chief, we want to try this mind mapping technology and see if it works. I said, ok, let's see if it works. I don't know names, except for the folks that told me specifically they were doing it. But what I watched in our agency happen was it was our dudes that were as tough as nails reputation, salty and seasoned and they went and they came back and started talking to their friends and their peers and they're like, well, he's doing it, I'm doing it. I couldn't afford all of the people that wanted. I had to go find more money to do that. And now people they're in and so by providing that and letting people give the opportunity to do Testament, there isn't a stigma anymore. It's pretty cool, pretty cool and it's so important now.

Steve Morreale: 42:32

I want to wind down with a final question. You seem positive and optimistic, even with all the things that are going on against policing. Do you see the pendulum swinging back, that we are paying attention, that we are trying to serve, we're trying to change? What's your take on that?

Matt Packard: 42:48

In a couple of ways. Yes, I think you have a choice, and if you don't have a positive outlook, that's your choice. And if you have a negative outlook, then you will beget what you do. So, if you're going to be an effective leader, you should figure out how to find the positive light and make it move for that direction. So I will tell you, I will be perpetually positive on purpose for that reason. So I think, from a policy perspective, I spent a lot of time in our state legislature.

Matt Packard: 43:14

We've passed some really rough laws over the past four years that, one might argue, make this job harder, but I will tell you, I am now I don't know 23 days after the 2024 legislative session and, as I'm getting ready to refound on that, I will tell you that our profession got easier in 2024 in this state than it was in 2023. We are moving in the right direction. It's not easy, but we are moving in the right direction. We have more tools than we did last year, and that's positive. So I do think, in that context, the pendulum is swinging.

Matt Packard: 43:39

I also think that people, at their core, want to be safe and I think, if you have an honest assessment of what happened in 2020, that's what we were hearing is a specific communities in our society didn't feel safe anymore and they didn't trust the people that needed to provide that safety, and I think we have a truckload of work to do, but we are building more trust and confidence back in particularly those communities and they're coming back to us to help them feel safe, because that's what this profession is about, and I think if we find we are able to move culture to accept and listen to the voices of the communities that we're serving and acknowledge that they haven't always trusted us I mean not to go down this rabbit hole, but Selma, alabama and state troopers was not that long ago. Grandparents of people we're policing were involved in that and we need to acknowledge that.

Steve Morreale: 44:29

Yeah, this historical perspective, familial perspective on the way they were treated. I know.

Matt Packard: 44:38

Right, and if you think about how influential your parents or grandparents or those are in your day to day, remember that in the context of today, I think we're doing better as a profession in acknowledging perspective matters and so for a lot of reasons, I think the pendulum is coming back. But if we want to keep it going, then we can continue to be better at appreciating the perspectives that everybody brings to the it going, then we can continue to be better at appreciating the perspectives that everybody brings to the interactions and the opportunities we have to engage with the communities that we're here to serve and that will keep this pendulum moving forward. And if we're thoughtful and mindful, maybe we can keep it from swinging back to the extreme that it did four years ago.

Steve Morreale: 45:07

Well, I've been talking to Matt Packard and, in my estimation, you are a thought leader in representing the state police, among others. I appreciate the time that you've taken with me. I very much do, and I look forward to seeing you in Boston at the IACP. You have the last word. Who would you like to talk to? Who is no longer here to try to pick their brain?

Matt Packard: 45:28

There's a couple of people that come to mind. My mom is a lover of history and she gave that to me, and you know I just finished a couple months ago one of the biographies on Lincoln and I really admire him for what he was able to accomplish. And the easy answer is the credit that he has deserved in moving our nation forward from a really dark time is compelling. And to hear his perspective but he was I'm going to use this term it's got a negative connotation, but he was an incredible politician in all the right ways, in the way he was able to maneuver challenging situations and get people to move this country together in a positive direction. And he wasn't trying to win the whole thing in one conversation, it was incremental and I think in that regard he's a pretty brilliant guy and I'd like to learn more and learn those lessons to move the culture of policing forward so we can be better at it tomorrow than we are today.

Steve Morreale: 46:21

Matt, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to talk with you and you've certainly provided some interesting insight that I appreciate, and I look forward to seeing you, as I said, in Boston, and thank you for what you're doing. Keep up the good work.

Matt Packard: 46:32

Thank you for the time. I look forward to it as well. Take care.

Steve Morreale: 46:34

All right, that's another episode on the books, and I appreciate hearing from people all over the country and all over the world. In fact, I just had an idea from someone to reach out to over in England, so I'll be doing that soon. So more guests soon. Thanks for listening, S teve Morreale, coming to you from South Carolina, you've been listening to Th e Cop Doc Podcast.