Protecting Seniors: Combating Elder Financial Abuse with Retired FBI Agent John Schwartz

Season 6 - Episode 133

You may be enlightened as we welcome John Schwartz, a retired FBI agent and the visionary founder of the Center for Combating Elder Financial Abuse, to our latest episode from The CopDoc Podcast. John's journey from West Point to the U.S. Army, where he served in roles ranging from field artillery to ROTC instruction, laid the groundwork for his 24-year career with the FBI. From drug enforcement to counterintelligence and counterterrorism, John's diverse experiences with the Bureau have now converged into his mission to protect vulnerable seniors from financial exploitation.

Our conversation takes a deep dive into the alarming rise of elder financial abuse and the critical role that police agencies can play in addressing this often-overlooked crime. We shed light on the myriad schemes used to target the elderly, including handyman scams, sweetheart cons, and fraudulent sweepstakes. Highlighting notorious cases like Scott Cohen's $300 million Ponzi scheme, we stress the necessity for law enforcement to investigate these broader criminal enterprises, emphasizing financial predators' extensive and sophisticated reach.

The CopDoc Podcast explores the various forms of elder fraud, from impersonation scams to "pension poaching" aimed at elderly veterans. By sharing strategies employed by successful elder abuse units and discussing the importance of continued education and collaboration, we strive to equip our listeners with the tools to fight this pervasive issue. John Schwartz's insights and dedication serve as a powerful call to action for all of us to stay informed and vigilant in protecting our most vulnerable populations.

Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com

Website: www.copdocpodcast.com

If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com

Transcript

Intro-Outro Announcement 00:02

Welcome to The CopDoc Podcast. This podcast explores police leadership issues and innovative ideas. The CopDoc shares thoughts and ideas as he talks with leaders in policing communities, academia and other government agencies. And now please join Dr Steve Morreale and industry thought leaders as they share their insights and experience on The CopDoc Podcast. 

Steve Morreale Host 00:33

Hello everybody, welcome back. This is the CopDoc podcast. I'm Steve Morreale, coming to you from Boston, and today we have an unusual but a very important conversation with John Schwartz, and he is down in Virginia, Prince William County, Virginia. Retired FBI agent, he's now the founder and president for the Center for Combating Elder Financial Abuse A very important topic. So hello there, john. How are you? 

John Schwartz Guest 00:56

Hey Steve, I'm doing well. Thank you very much for having me. 

Steve Morreale Host 00:58

Glad to have you. This is such an important topic and something that I touched upon in my career, especially when I left DEA to go to HHS, the Inspector General's office, because that was all about Medicare and Medicaid fraud and in some cases it was abuse of or taking advantage of the vulnerable population, and I know that that is what you're trying to do. So first let's talk about your background. I see in the back, I can see listeners, can't. You've got an Army shirt there and you told me that you are a proud member of West Point, so talk about that. And then your approach to law enforcement, how you got involved in the FBI and what you're doing now. 

John Schwartz Guest 01:34

Yeah, so I had the opportunity to go to West Point. Entered on July 1st, 1982, graduated four years later in class of 1986. I'm very, very fortunate to have that opportunity to go to West Point and I really enjoyed time there. 

Steve Morreale Host 01:47

Quite a facility, quite an education, quite a history. 

John Schwartz Guest 01:51 

Oh, the history is incredible, right, I mean the history is incredible and you're reminded of the history every day. You really, really are. That's one of the most powerful things about West Point, and there it is in beautiful. 

Steve Morreale Host 02:02

For people who aren't familiar with that, it's on the beautiful banks of the Hudson, not too far from New York City, but far enough. It's a completely different world up there, right. But there you are as a young, young man, marching and learning. So ultimately you got out. What was your branch? 

John Schwartz Guest 02:16

I was field artillery. 

Steve Morreale Host 02:18

Lucky you. And then what happened? 

John Schwartz Guest 02:20

Entered into the Army active duty, Did nine years active duty. I really enjoyed it. So I run through my assignments really quick. First thing I was able to do is go to Fort Sill, Oklahoma. We were with a Lance missile, a surface-to-surface missile. Did that a couple of years. Then I had a chance to go to Republic of Korea for the entire year of 1989. And then after that I was able to go to sunny Fort Drum, New York. 

Steve Morreale Host 02:45

Sunny 89. And then after that I was able to go to sunny Fort Drum, New York. Sunny said tongue in cheek yes, exactly. 

John Schwartz Guest 02:49

But it was, and that was a great assignment too. So I spent two years there with a howitzer battalion. I was able to serve two years there and then, after that, went to a ROTC at East Carolina university. 

Steve Morreale Host 03:02

Molding young minds. 

John Schwartz Guest 03:03

Really was, when you instruct students, you're really learning more than you're instructing yourself, and that was really, really neat experience. 

Steve Morreale Host 03:11

Well, you learn about the new generation. I think that's what helps me stay current in a lot of ways, because you're beginning to understand. You're asking questions, you're challenging their beliefs, you're asking them to follow up with their statements, that it's evidence-based, not just what you heard three years ago and has stuck with you. I see your head shaking. Talk about that. 

John Schwartz Guest 03:30

Yeah, no, that's exactly right. You know these are going to be. You have the responsibility of training young army officers and you do. You definitely want to challenge them. You definitely want to get their insights. I will tell anybody, the level of motivation that I saw in these students was just absolutely unbelievable. It was really, really refreshing. I had the opportunity to stay in touch with a couple of my former cadets who went on to do great things and I'm still impressed with them. I got to share with you because your former DEA, one of my students, went to DEA route as well, so really neat to see that. So here I am with one of my former cadets. I'm an FBI agent, he's a DEA to kind of pay forward, which I know. You've had that experience and that's neat. 

Steve Morreale Host 04:15

So let's talk about you now moving to the FBI. You're out, the army is behind you and thank you for your service. My friend, what drew you to the FBI and what kinds of assignments did you have there? And what the hell did that have to do with elder financial abuse? 

John Schwartz Guest 04:40

So let's see how this all pulls together. 

So while I was teaching at ROTC at East Carolina I came across a brochure for the FBI and it really intrigued me so I wanted to take a little bit further, look into it. I said, well, yeah, let me go ahead and apply, see what happens. And fortunately I was accepted. I was very grateful for that and I entered into Quantico on December of 1996. So now I'm starting another chapter. So I put nine years of active duty army behind me and then began a 24-year career into FBI. 

So while I was into FBI I was very, very fortunate to be able to go to Washington field office. So I reported there in April of 1997. Once I got there then I had a chance to go to a drug squad. So I got to work with criminal side and then after that I went to the national security side and I worked counterintelligence for a couple of years, which was phenomenal. After that I was able to go fly for four years, really enjoyed that. Then after that I was able to go to counterterrorism and I did all of this out of Washington field office. So what I want to share with your audience the FBI has incredible opportunities. So if you know anyone or know any young people that you have any type of influence on. Have them take a look at federal law enforcement, because it is. There are so many different opportunities. 

Steve Morreale Host 05:58

You glanced over something, did you say fly yeah. 

John Schwartz Guest 06:01

Yeah, so you were in the aviation unit. Yeah, I sure was. So I was able to get my private pilot become a pilot for the FBI. That's great, Did that four years and learned about the world of aviation, which is a world in and of itself. It is. 

Steve Morreale Host 06:14

And so you're flying support and surveillance support and those kinds of things. 

John Schwartz Guest 06:17

Yeah. 

Steve Morreale Host 06:18

Transport in some cases yeah. 

John Schwartz Guest 06:19

Yeah, In some cases yeah, but really enjoyed it. It was a very simple platform so it wasn't, I think, too heavy, but it was. It got my feet wet in the world of aviation. 

Steve Morreale Host 06:29

The Washington field office is an amazing opportunity because it is our capital and there's so many things going on there, and obviously your time in the FBI and the counterintelligence, and I'm sure you're paying attention to what's going on in some of the embassies that are represented from all over the world. Some are there with tremendous good intention and some are there to undermine us, I suppose. 

John Schwartz Guest 06:52

Yeah, so in the world of counterintelligence, right, I mean, I did not do intelligence in the army, so I was brand new to the world of counterintelligence and that was a fascinating world too. But that works into the FBI's mission of national security. So able to do that for four years, I believe, and then come back to national security, but down the counterterrorism side. So that world of national security, it's an amazing world. I've learned so much both in counterintelligence and counterterrorism, and it is. It's heavy stuff at times, but the people that I was able to work with, the professionals that I learned from, were second to none. They truly were. 

Steve Morreale Host 07:34

That's great. So you've put 24 years in and the main focus of our conversation today is about what you're doing with elder abuse, and obviously so. Let's talk about police agencies, and I'm talking about local and state and county police agencies. You get a call. Sometimes it's from a grandchild, it's from a son or a daughter for an elderly parent and they feel they have been duped. Whether somebody comes in and says I want to fix your roof and I can do it in three days, but I'm going to need $5,000 check, and as vulnerable and as naive as people at that age can be, sometimes they do it and they never see the person again. 

It just goes on and on and on. Just getting a phone call, sometimes with a lonely elderly person, can be misused, can be misunderstood. I want to know how you got drawn to this. Our conversations before said you know we're looking at this the wrong way, but I want the audience to know that. So if you're in a police agency and you're called to something that seems inappropriate, that someone has been taken advantage of, what should police do? What do police do? What are the laws out there to prevent or to take action against people who have taken advantage of this vulnerable elderly population. 

John Schwartz Guest 08:52

Thank you, Steve. That's amazing. So, first of all, what you described in your example, that's the handyman scheme, right? So I break this down to different attack vectors the handyman scheme is one of the top ones, but, of course, sweetheart scams, grandparent scams, sweet steak scams. So what I'm doing with our center we're a 501c3 nonprofit and I set this up less than two weeks after I retired from the FBI. I set it up February of 2021. What we want to do is we want to fill the gaps in protecting our elderly from this crime. So our mission is we want to lead the way in protecting the elderly and their family members from predators who commit elder finance abuse. And I mean that when I say we want to lead the way, because right now, there's different organizations doing great work. I want to be part of that and I want us to help lead the way in that. 

But we look at this crime. I don't call the individuals that conduct this crime. I don't call them scammers. I don't call them fraudsters. I call them predators, because that's exactly what they are. And when I look at predators, I compare financial predators to homicidal predators, as well as sexual predators, and each one of those categories, those predators have one goal in mind and that is to gain control of their victim, and I measure that on a scale of one to 10, with eight, nine or 10 being the highest. So if that predator can gain a control level of eight, nine or 10 on a victim for elder financial abuse, they can wipe out your entire life savings. And it goes back to what you said If this predator can contact the right lonely person and they do a great target analysis, then they can walk away with millions of dollars in some cases. So that's what we're trying to do, is we're going to take a look at this crime through the eyes of the predator. I think that's a very unique approach for us, but we study predators and on our website we have cases of over 20 convicted predators. So these aren't maybe predators kind of predators. No, they're convicted predators. 

One of the top predators that I talk about all the time. His name is Scott Cohen and he conducted a Ponzi scheme and successfully stole $300 million. Not only that, he targeted 13,000 veterans and he was sentenced to only 10 years on August 18th 2022. And at the time, he was age 68. So let's talk about that really. Scott Cohen. How many people have ever heard of Scott Cohen. 

In this $300 million case, you have to be aware of the threat before you start protecting yourself from the threat. You've got to believe the threat's real. So that's part of my job too, to let people know oh, this threat is real. You've got to believe that. And then the other question I ask about these predators why $300 billion? Why did this predator stop at $200 million? $100 million, $50 million? That's a very interesting question. That's a very interesting question. That's a very important question. If you're going to combat elder financial abuse, you got to understand the mindset of these predators and what that tells us. Still in $300 billion, a they're capable and B there is no stopping them. There is no limit to them. If he could have stole $400 million, I'm confident he would have done that. 

Steve Morreale Host 12:02

That brings me back to my days as a detective and even as an agent and even when I'm doing some training. When you find someone or a situation, a singular situation, but when you think about the responsibility of federal law enforcement and certainly local law enforcement, it's not about going after the person for one violation. Enforcement it's not about going after the person for one violation. In other words, sometimes it opens the door to say, well, let's look to see who else this person may have duped. Once we find this person, don't just close the door to say we solved this individual case. If he did it with one, he did it with many. 

And now you've got a major conspiracy which changes everything. I understand, and so I think that helps anybody listening to say you know, peel back the onion. Who else was duped? Who else was involved in this? Was this an individual situation? And instead of just looking to solve that singular complaint, expand it into any possible conspiracy. I saw you react to that, so talk about that. 

Steve Morreale Host

And, by the way, we're talking to John Schwartz and he is down in Virginia right now and he runs the Center for Combating Elder Financial Abuse, a 501c3. Go ahead and respond to that, john. 

John Schwartz Guest 13:11

That's exactly right. So let's take a look at that, right? I mean the question that you ask is this a criminal enterprise and, if so, how wide is it and how many people is it affecting? Again, he was the ringleader of a criminal enterprise, but when you think about $300 million and the impact that they had on individuals, then you have to ask yourself what kind of financial impact is that I mean in the wake of financial destruction, right? How many people's lives were absolutely turned upside down on that? So, these Ponzi schemes, how many people are involved on this? Is it a criminal enterprise that is just within our nation or does it cross international borders? 

But you have to start peeling back the onion, just like you said. That's one thing I learned early on when I started looking at this. There's a former prosecutor out of San Diego. His name is Paul Greenwood. He's phenomenal. He's retired now. He's working with AARP, but he did an interview with AARP years ago, I believe, 2012, 2013. But he said the exact same thing. He goes you have to look deeper, you have to ask more questions. And he was exactly right then. And, Steve, you're exactly right now. You know, when somebody comes in with a complaint, what I hope law enforcement does is first of all, take a look at the complaint but then, secondly, start looking outside the box. Is this bigger than just this one victim? That sharing their story, and also what you touched upon too, is your gut feeling. When somebody comes in and the story just doesn't seem right, the individual telling the story seems credible and there's a gut feeling in the investigators, inside the investigator, saying this could be much more than what meets the eye. That's when you're doing law enforcement work. 

Steve Morreale Host 14:58

When you're digging, and I think I always suggest that when you're, when you're looking at these individual situations, you have to use this as an opportunity, as a pointer. Where's it going to point you? What direction are you going to be pointed to? And so many police agencies realize look, there's so many different police agencies in America 17,000, 18,000, and each one of them has a detective, sometimes a singular detective, sometimes a detective division, and the most success that they have is when they meet together and they talk about what's going on in their town. 

Think about people that are doing organized retail crime. And somebody is going after certain items at Lowe's or at Home Depot. Well, it's not just happening in that particular locale. So who else is doing it? Right? And that's where it's important, so to be able to talk to hey, this is a case that I have. Has anybody else had this? And that's how cases grow and that's how we begin to put people in jail for taking advantage of elderly. I understand completely what you're talking about. So when we talk about home improvement scams, you're going from door to door and, by the way, it could be anything as simple as I'll power wash your house, I will repair. I know it just goes on and on. I will paint your house, but I'm going to need some money first to be able to buy the paint and let's pick colors. And they're happy because I've been wanting to do this for a long, long time and this person seems so nice. And the next thing, you know, the money's out of the checking account and they never return. 

John Schwartz Guest 16:18

That's it. So that's a face-to-face predator, right? So these face-to-face predators are the ones that scare me the most because they have a personal contact. So what any predator will do is right, they'll do a target analysis. I talked to a prosecutor about these type of schemes and they said, oh yeah, these predators will come driving around the neighborhood and they know the neighborhoods to go to and then they'll start scouting out the individuals living in those houses, audit Woodchucks. He said, yeah, these are woodchucks. They're doing the cut down to tree scheme and it's working very well. So he knew he even has a nickname for it. Right, I mean woodchucks. It's amazing. But yeah. 

So Predator 101, right, the key to success for any predator, again, whether it's financial, sexual or homicidal avoid detection, right? So you have to have a good con story, and these predators do. They all do, whether it's on face-to-face, doing a home improvement scheme or a sweetheart scam that they're only communicating via email. They avoid detection because they've developed this expertise and we can't underestimate the level of expertise that these predators have. Once they do that, now they want to isolate you into a control zone, into a kill zone. So now I'm going back to my army days. Right, I mean infantry, ambush 101, right. I mean you set up your kill zone, you lead the enemy forces into your kill zone. That's exact. You take that very simple principle and apply that to elder financial abuse. That's exactly. You take that very simple principle and apply that to elder financial abuse. That's exactly what they're doing. 

And then you know these predators will say hey, say it's a sweetheart or a grandparent's scam. Hey, listen, grandson's been in a car accident, please don't contact the police, we're going to handle it for you, but just send us the $10,000. And this works right. So they avoid detection. And then they isolate, and they isolate very well these predators when they say don't call the police and they've scared the victim out of their wits about their grandchildren. Yeah, they're very obedient. Whatever you say, you need $10,000 and you don't need me to call the police and you're going to take care of my grandson. Yes, absolutely. 

Steve Morreale Host 18:25

It is crazy and, as you may know, state by state, there are Medicare Fraud Control Units MFCUs is what they call them. When I ever heard that term, I thought MFUCU, MFUC you! But the Medicaid fraud control units deal with some of this where people are being taken advantage of for health care, and that could be anything from actually. We've seen these I've investigated them myself where somebody is following a truck, lynn Care or Home Health Distribution Centers, and they follow and what they end up doing is to say you just got a new bed, we have a better bed, let's give you that bed and this is how much it will take and we'll take that other bed from you. Well, first of all, if you're going to remove the other bed, you owe the company that brought it to you. But they're taking advantage of everything from a wheelchair to an on and on. 

Or we have scams that I'm sure you're aware of, where sometimes it's people who are caretakers, sometimes it's grandchildren who are unscrupulous and take advantage of their grandparents and suck money out of an account and then all of a sudden there is no money or they deviate that money to protect it so that the government can't grab it. But now the government has called on to pay for somebody in a Medicaid facility and there's a five-year look back and all of a sudden this person who tried to no different than money laundering, tried to hide that money. I know tried to hide that money from the state can be under some scrutiny and some difficulty because the state has to pay when you had $100,000 that you co-opted and you took away. So there are so many different scams. So let's talk about some of the other maybe not $300 million cases, but other schemes that you're aware of out there for elder financial abuse. 

John Schwartz Guest 20:05

Yeah. So let me share one that 60 Minutes talked about on August 27th. The title of the episode for 60 Minutes was how con artists use AI apps social engineering to target parents and grandparents for theft. So I have a quote here from the guest on 60 Minutes. His name is Scott Pirelli. He's deputy district attorney from the San Diego district attorney's office and this is what he said on the show. He said most people who have not experienced this think well, these people must have had dementia or Alzheimer's. He said it's not the case. 

Our victims are sharp. As a tack, we had a woman 66 years old. She came home she got a message on her computer from Microsoft and the message said that she had a virus on her computer and then that virus had somehow infected her financial accounts. Within a matter of weeks this victim had lost $800,000. To where the host of the show, Sharon Alfonsi, said oh my gosh. And Scott Pirelli responded and said the scariest part of these schemes is that these victims have no recourse. So here we go with a tech support scheme right, Mr Pirelli's describing a tech support scheme that was executed flawlessly, was able to steal $800,000, and then Mr Pirelli sharing on 60 Minutes just a couple weeks ago. That victim has no recourse. I mean, how heartbreaking is that right? 

Steve Morreale Host 21:22

Well, you and I get calls. Even though we're both former federal agents, retired federal agents, we get calls constantly. I get calls constantly about Medicare and how can we help you and let us fill out the form. And once that happened, I've investigated situations where somebody has called and said listen, we want to help you apply for this and we'll help you fill out the document. Can you go and get your information? And the next thing you know, I'm being fed, or the bad guy is being fed all of the financial information. What's your social security number? Now we'll protect it. And the next thing you know, they just bleed bank accounts or they go out and they create accounts which they can draw on in the name of that person and then they are long gone. 

There's just countless ways that people are duped, especially those who are elderly and are vulnerable, maybe live alone. Unfortunately, there are some. There are many lonely people out there and they're just looking for somebody who cares. Discuss that. Unfortunately, there are many lonely people out there and they're just looking for somebody who cares. Discuss that. And from your perspective, are you working with police departments to say, consider changing the approach to these? Some departments have elder abuse, elder fraud units. Others are just singular detectives or a small detective unit that catch all kinds of cases, including elder fraud. What's your suggestion to them? 

John Schwartz Guest 22:36

So, going back to that, educate yourself on the crime of elder financial abuse Again, reach out to us, because this is what we're here for, but you have to understand the different attack vectors as a law enforcement officer at the local, state and federal level, as well as the prosecutors need to understand it, and I'd even say judges too, for the law enforcement that's created these elder abuse teams. They're doing a great job and they are, they're educating themselves and they're learning more. And what I'd also say these cases are hard. They really are. No one said they weren't hard, so maybe you fell at the first one, but don't be discouraged, because you're going to learn and then you're going to pick up on the nuances of these cases and then, once you pick up on the nuances, then you're going to build your successes and then we're going to find the next $300 million case, because that's the other thing that I'd ask law enforcement at all three levels. 

Do you have a Scott Cohen in your area right now? That's going undetected. We had another individual. His name was Doc Gallagher. He was in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. He hid in plain sight on Christian Radio and he also ran a Ponzi scheme and he was sentenced to three life terms in November 1st 2021. So write what I would share with law enforcement Study these cases that have already been convicted so that if people do come in and say, listen, this guy on Christian radio, he's holding the seminars and he's talking about rates of return that are seemingly impossible and you know there's no downside and you know it just doesn't sound right. You know, I'd feel better if law enforcement would take a look at that. Take a look. But again he was able to hide in plain sight on Christian radio and dupe over 190 victims. 

Steve Morreale Host 24:20

Yeah, that's crazy. We're talking to John Swartz and he is in Virginia right now. He's a retired FBI agent and he is the president for the Center of Combating Elder Fraud and Financial Abuse. John, how do people get in touch with you? 

John Schwartz Guest 24:42

How can they find you? Thank you. So our website I'll spell it it's ENDEFA.org. Again, it's ENDEFA.org stands for End Elder Financial Abuse and there's a contact button on our website. They can go there and send me a message. I'd love for them to reach out to me. I'd love to provide training for law enforcement, but not only law enforcement. I also provide training for social service groups, veteran organizations, religious organizations, financial institutions, medical center and also educational institutions. 

Steve Morreale Host 25:07

Yeah, I think that's smart because you're reaching out to people. One of the things I just wrote down is you know police agencies that have an interest in this and are community-minded and most are should be reaching out potentially to you or even themselves, to get out there and try to do some prevention by letting people know in senior centers, their families, how to avoid that, what to watch for. I'm looking at a list here about top fraud types and I see a few that we haven't touched, but I see it all of the time the old DEA agent and the old IG person. So when somebody calls me and say, hey, I'm calling for Medicare, I'm on Medicare now, but I'm calling for Medicare and I want to see if I can help you. And I said you work for Medicare? Oh, yes, I do. So you're a GS employee. They have no idea what that means. So you do not work for Medicare, you're full of it. I mean I don't mind giving them a hard time and stop calling me. Of course they don't. Actually, I've had them call and call and call. So there, I hope I'm of sound mind. But imagine the people who are catching these calls who are saying, well, I'm confused by Medicare, so why don't you help me? So sometimes they're being imposters for government employees, which is a problem. 

It could be the IRS that they're pretending to be, or state employees that they're pretending to be. It could be police organizations that they pretend to represent. I'm sure you've seen, heard some of them. Hi, I'm representing the association of. I don't even know what the hell they are. I said really, are you a cop? No, you're collecting money is what you're doing. That's it, and so I have never heard of your organization before. Now I know how to do that. So, but so many people do. I see your head shaking. Talk about those kinds of things. 

John Schwartz Guest 26:35

Yeah. So first of all, what you just described, that list that you just went through, right, the attack vectors, the telephone. So there's only two types of predators in the world. There's the face-to-face predators that we're talking about with the handyman scheme, and then there's the hide behind the shadows. In this case it's the ones that hide behind the telephone and hide behind the computer. The reason I make that distinction is because let's go back to control a control level of eight, nine or ten. These predators that hide in the shadows on these telephones that are posing as IRS. All you have to do is hang up and now they no longer have control over you, whereas that face-to-face predator, once they enter into your lives, now you can't just hang up on them, and that's a huge distinction. So that's first of all. Those face predators scare me much more. 

Steve Morreale Host 27:22

Yeah, because they're in your house and they've got you, they're in your house right and they don't take no for an answer and they keep trying to chip away. Well, what can I do? How might I help you? How about we start? Let me do this for $150. And maybe they do it. Oh yeah, maybe they do that small job and the next thing they know they're coming back and say I can take care of this for you, but that'll be $2,000, and then they run away. 

John Schwartz Guest 27:42

Well, they do that, right. And then at the entire time, they're looking around seeing if this individual truly is isolated. The predator will ask about family Do you have any family living? Have been close by? No, no, I only have one son. He lives on the opposite side of the nation, on the opposite coast. So no, I'm here all alone. So right, that predator wants to hear that. Now that predator starts taking this individual hey, would you like me to take you out to a dinner one night? Do you get out often? Well, no, and you know, just increases the trust level and then able to still even more. So it's all about trust. 

Also, I wanted to go back to one thing that you said about helping filling out forms, right for Medicare. 

Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly how Medicare works. Let me take that and apply that to veterans, because one of the impact vectors that we see is what they call pension poaching, where these predators will target elderly veterans and help them gain more benefits, but in doing so, they'll say, hey, I need the information that you just described, right, I need your checking account so that we can deposit it in and they will get more benefits, but then they'll charge these astronomical costs, so they're attacking veterans. This is special to both of us, right, because we're both military, but I want to help protect military veterans. I also want to shout-out to two groups that's helping protect veterans and that's the Pennsylvania Department of Military and Veteran Affairs, Brigadier General Maureen Weigel. Pennsylvania has opened up an awareness campaign that we've been able to help with the past two years, so they have an awareness campaign on pension poaching. They're doing a great job. I'm also wanting to share that I've been able to work with West Chester University of Criminology and Dr Michelle Bratina. 

Steve Morreale Host 29:27

Yes, she led me to you, yes. 

John Schwartz Guest 29:29

Exactly. So that was really neat, right? So West Chester University is in Pennsylvania. Dr Bratina and I have been able to work together the past two years and they've supplied interns. So this year we were able to take the four interns from Westchester University and tie them together with Pennsylvania Department of Military Veterans Affairs and they worked together on the pension poaching awareness campaign and it was phenomenal. But this pension poaching the reason I'm highlighting it because it's bad, it's very bad. They're targeting our nation's elderly veterans and it's got to stop. 

Steve Morreale Host 30:01

You're right. That could also apply to Social Security, as you know, or retirement funds that are out there. So that's crazy. One of the things I'm seeing is timeshare sales or vacations and trying to sell vacations, and what you've been saying about pension poaching, and one thing you might want to do to get a foothold is to find some of these detective associations that exist. Could we pull together in your training room a group of detective units to talk about elder financial abuse and so grow it from there? Just food for thought, thank you. 

John Schwartz Guest 30:31

AARP just came out with a study, back on June 15th, and they announced that they estimate the annual cost of elder financial abuse to be $28.3 billion. Yes, I want to make the point. Hey, let's break that down into a daily cost. So let's divide that by 365, and that turns out to be $77.3 million a day lost to elder financial abuse, according to AARP. So what is our value? If we can reduce that cost by only 2%, then our center is saving our nation $1.5 million daily, or $574 million on an annual basis, and we're very proud of that potential impact. 

And then the last thing I want to share is what can your audience do now to harden the target? Some tips on how to protect themselves. You know how to harden the target right, going back to military terms. But the first thing that I would suggest is conduct a financial vulnerability survey. Just so happens, we have one on our website, and I want to give a shout out to Dr Peter Lichtenberg, the director of gerontology at Wayne State University out of Detroit. He developed this survey. It's a quick 17-question survey. But if your audience conducts a survey now, they have a better idea of how vulnerable they are to this crime. Then, coupled with that, you take a look at some of the actual threats that have been arrested. On the very front page, there is Scott Cohen, there is Doc Gallagher, and that can help your elderly audience learn a little bit more about themselves, right? So conduct that vulnerability analysis. Conduct that analysis, because that's exactly what the predators do. 

The second thing I'd suggest in all these new relationships slow down the relationship, because these predators will speed up relationships in order to create confusion, and they're very good at it, right? So this tactic is seen in romance schemes, grandparent, grandchild schemes, investment and also tech support. So slow down the relationship. Also, if it's a romance scheme, ask the individual to do a video call with you, and if they won't do a video call with you, right, that tells you a lot. Also, have a trusted family or friend with you on that video call. So those are a couple of ideas. 

Another idea what these predators will do is in these tech support scams. I'll say listen again, hurry up A sense of urgency. We need to verify who you are, so we need you to take your driver's license and put it up to the camera, right, so that we can verify you. Well, that's the attack, right there. So never, never, never, disclose any personal information. Please don't hold anything up to the camera. Also, what I've suggested to people if you've had your telephone number for a number of years and you're getting these multiple phone calls, I suggest consider getting a second telephone number and now use that telephone number for your trusted inner circle and share that with only your trusted inner circle. 

The other piece that I'd like to give you've heard this before, but it can't be stated enough Do not, absolutely do not, click on links in either text or emails. We all know that, but you got to put that up there. Then also consider freezing your credit. And then, finally, the most important thing these predators look for individuals that are isolated. So if a trusted, responsible family member can come and visit their elderly more often, that would be great right. 

And again, what if we have one child that lives across the nation and they only visit twice a year? Maybe just bump that up to three times a year. That may make all the difference in the world between your life savings or not. But those are some of the ideas that we have on how to protect yourself. But you've got to do a vulnerability analysis. You have to see how vulnerable you are. If you're age 65, you're living with a significant other, you're healthy, you're playing golf a couple times a week, you're going to church right, you're low on that vulnerability scale. But then, if you do this analysis, at least annually, maybe 10 years from now no longer living with your significant other, you're the remaining spouse, children moved away. Now you're more isolated. That's who the predators are looking for. So if you understand how vulnerable you are, you're one step ahead of the predator. 

Steve Morreale Host 34:31

I mean, it seems to me that what's going to end up happening, if you look at that, when you're in your late 70s and beyond. That's when you are fairly vulnerable, and that's my own opinion, although everybody's different. I'm looking at a list, too, about other potential financial abuse attempts, including power of attorney abuse, deceptive financial advisors, your retirement funds and helping to improve, offering a reverse mortgage scam, those kinds of things. It's just about money. It's really and you know this from your FBI days and my DEA days follow the money, and that's what the bad guys are doing. Where is money? How can I siphon off some of these life savings and scoot away untouched? 

So we're talking with John Schwartz and he is the president for the Center for Combating Elder Financial Abuse. So you can find him on the internet at endefa.org endefa.org. So, John, as we get to the end, thank you for being here, thank you for trying to spread the word, thank you for opening our eyes to what can be devastating to the elderly, but you have the last word. What are the things you would say to police organizations, detectives, officers that are listening, to help to both prevent and react to situations like this? 

John Schwartz Guest 35:49

Yeah, well, you hit it right. I mean, follow the money right. Think outside the box. Think like the predator. Take a look at the individual who's telling you their story. Did they lose their life savings? And is somebody else about to lose their life savings and understand this? These cases. They may seem complicated at first, but they're really not If you look at it through the eyes of the predator. Think about Predator 101 and that, this predator. All they need to do is gain control, sometimes with just a pen and a signature. But it goes back to AARP $28.3 billion. We've got to do better. If you divide that by 365 days, that's $77.5 million per day. This can't happen in this nation. So that's what we're trying to stop and that's what I would say. 

Steve Morreale Host 36:34

Great Well, I appreciate your willingness to make this your life's work, because it's important, and it is usually in the underbelly of society. We don't see an awful lot of that, but we care about our loved ones, our neighbors who are elderly, and we have to begin to pay attention and obviously look for the bigger picture. If someone is scamming one individual and you're investigating this, it seems to me that what you should be doing is digging to find out who else has been duped, and that's when you're making a case worthy of the attention of a police department and a district attorney's office. So thank you, John, for being here. 

John Schwartz Guest 

Thank you, Steve. 

Steve Morreale Host

So we're talking to John Schwartz. That's another episode of The CopDoc Podcast. We've talked to him in Virginia and again, he runs the Center for Combating Elder Financial Abuse. I'm Steve Morreale. This is The CopDoc Podcast. Thanks for listening. Stay tuned for more episodes. Keep up the good work. Stay safe. All the best. 

Intro-Outro Announcement 37:28

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast with Dr Steve Morreale. Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and manager, turned academic and scholar from Worcester State University. Please tune into The CopDoc Podcast for regular episodes of interviews with thought leaders in policing.