Challenges and Successes in Diversity & Inclusion….with Emma Bennett

Everyone has a different path to working in Diversity & Inclusion. Emma Bennett has always had a value around building a more sustainable, inclusive and equal workplaces. Her career in recruitment and talent acquisition has taken her around the world.

Before working in a dedicated diversity & inclusion leadership role she built high performing teams and worked with individuals to increase equitable access to opportunities.

Emma shares her career story as well as her challenges and successes working in a diversity & inclusion leadership role.

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The Culture Ministry exists to create inclusive, accessible environments so that people and businesses can thrive.

Combining a big picture, balanced approach with real-world experience, we help organisations understand their diversity and inclusion shortcomings – and identify practical, measurable actions to move them forward.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:09

Welcome to A Dog Called Diversity, a podcast from the Culture Ministry where we explore the themes of diversity, equity and inclusion through sharing stories of personal and powerful lived experiences, including how people have found their feet and developed their career in diversity and inclusion. We are so glad you are listening in and if you need some help or support with your diversity and inclusion work, go to wwwthecultureministrycom for more information. Everyone has a different path to working in diversity and inclusion. Everyone has a different path to working in diversity and inclusion. Emma has always had a value around building a more sustainable, inclusive and equal workplace. Her career in recruitment and talent acquisition has taken her around the world. Before working in a dedicated diversity and inclusion leadership role, she built high-performing teams and worked with individuals to increase equitable access to opportunities. Emma shares her career story as well as her challenges and successes working in a diversity and inclusion leadership role.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Here's your host, lisa mulligan so welcome to the podcast, emma bennett, it's great to have you here.

Speaker 3: 1:26

Thanks, Lisa. It's great to be here finally. I know we've been trying to get this sorted for some time We've had many attempts, many.

Speaker 2: 1:35

So, emma, you are the regional head of D&I for a global bank, and you're based in Singapore, where I guess a lot of regional heads are based. But I wonder if you would start off by telling us a bit about you and how you ended up in a diversity and inclusion leadership role.

Speaker 3: 1:53

Yeah, sure, I'm happy to. So I'm going to dial it kind of right back actually to my childhood, which at the time of moving into D&I I probably didn't realise you know exactly how early my journey and passion for this work started. But I can recognize that now, so I'll sort of dial back to there. But I think you know I'm I don't know if you can hear in my accent, but I'm a Kiwi and so I come from a really small town in New Zealand. It's, you know, 5000 people, and so growing up in that small town it was kind of a great place to grow up, right, but it's one of those places that you look around and there's not a lot of opportunity. And at the time that I grew up, you know, in the 80s I won't give you which year people you know I guess you saw quite traditional roles, you know, particularly from a gender perspective.

Speaker 3: 2:44

I lost my mum when I was quite young and I think that that was quite a pivotal point in shaping me. So I struggled, you know, for some time, you know, with, obviously, with this loss, but I think also immediately, I remember saying to myself you know, I'm going to be financially independent. You know, I'm going to travel the world, I'm going to get to do the things that I didn't see, you know, my mum didn't get the time or the opportunity to do, and so, from sort of making those initial decisions, that was really important to me. I even age stamped it, you know, like I'm not going to get married before this age, or you know so on and so forth. And so you know that'm not gonna get married before this age, or you know so, on and so forth, and so you know that that really sparked my drive to build my own career. You know, to make sure, I had that um opportunity to be independent, which to me meant make the decisions I wanted to make, which was travel, you know, and and live abroad. So took myself off to London, um, ended up then in Hong Kong, um, and Singapore and Australia, kind of in between.

Speaker 3: 3:50

So I think you know, building that career meant for me really pushing myself through um, I went work in recruitment sorry in financial services sector, so pushing myself up into the leadership layers. You know I was always driven to get to that next step and make sure that I had a career, you know, plan in place. But through that, I guess you know I also ended up being the only woman in the room quite often and the only woman on the leadership team, and so I guess I started to have those experiences where you know, you're kind of looking around and you realize there's not a lot of diversity, you know, around me, and that led me to not a lot of inclusion and at times, at times, I guess, like a lot of struggle to feel comfortable and confident to fully contribute not realizing it at the time, but having a lot of anxiety around that and because I guess you're quite proud of yourself for being there, so you just, I don't know, got your armor on and keep going.

Speaker 3: 4:52

For it um, yeah, but yeah, through those experiences, I guess, once I realized, yeah, whilst I'm proud I got there, you know what, like there's probably a slightly less exhausting way to get there that would really provide that space for you to fully contribute.

Speaker 3: 5:08

So I started, you know, I guess, delving into how can I, you know, create spaces to empower, you know, those junior women below me to perhaps not have those same experiences. It's a long-winded way to get there, not have those same experiences, it's a long-winded way to get there. Then I moved into an internal recruitment role at a bank and I guess, bringing all of that with me, you know, gave me the space to put my hand up and ask to get involved in diversity and inclusion work. So, whilst I had that gender lens, that started to give me the learning and opportunities to broaden, you know, broaden my view and and and and just learn more, you know about, I guess, barriers and inclusion more broadly for for underrepresented groups, and that, yeah, I, I then got the opportunity to step into the role full-time, after kind of working on projects and so on, and now here I am doing that role and and I feel very, very, very lucky to be doing so. What was the?

Speaker 2: 6:08

I guess what was the advantage coming from that sort of recruitment and then internal talent acquisition background like what? What did you bring to the role? Because you had that experience?

Speaker 3: 6:19

I think understanding the talent processes and life cycle you know, being able to think about what they might look like in an organization, is quite a huge advantage because I guess when we're talking about the work that we do around diversity and you know how we can increase representation obviously in our workforce, a lot of that is to do with our talent processes or how we go about. You know. Go about whether it's recruiting, whether it's promoting, you know, so on and so forth. Because you know again, when you sit in a recruiting chair, whether that's internally or whether that's with agency, you do actually firsthand get to see the barriers that are in place for talent, whether that be in your process or whether that be in a mindset or a behavior of a hiring manager. You really do get to experience those. So I think that's been very, very helpful to bring that to the table and again be able to navigate within the HR world.

Speaker 2: 7:28

You know, more broadly, yeah, how ask this the different way? I think many organisations see okay, we need diversity, so the solution is to go out and buy it in the market. So go find people who are different to what we have. And lots of people who work in talent acquisition work really hard to go find those candidates to either have them rejected by the hiring manager or you get them hired and then they leave in a fairly short period of time because the the culture is not inclusive. You know they haven't been inducted or onboarded. Well, like, how much of that have you seen in your career?

Speaker 3: 8:07

look, I think you do see it right. Like I, I don't think I've seen so much of um. You know we're bringing in and buying the diversity for them to turn around and leave very quickly because of the culture. So much anymore.

Speaker 3: 8:19

Um, I can completely appreciate that.

Speaker 3: 8:21

Maybe, you know, 10, maybe 15 years ago that would would have been the case because you know most organizations were purely focused on diversity.

Speaker 3: 8:31

But I think you know the understanding of an inclusive and equitable culture is, you know, and processes and so on, you know, I think is more is greatly understood now and measured more often. You know, be it in your surveys that you might do, you know, each year, internally or or however you might measure that um. So I think see less of that now, but I do still think that when you're talking about, you know, going out and and sort of bringing in the diversity, I'm just sort of thinking about a, a statement that andrew nor nooyi um shared with us when she hosted a session with our organization where she said you cannot practice inclusion without diversity. So if all you're going to do is focus your energy and time on inclusive culture, whereas sometimes, where people want to go right Cause it's easier maybe, or it's uncomfortable to think about. Why am I being challenged on the proportionality and my talent pipeline? It's about the best person for the job. I don't understand the value of diversity yet et cetera.

Speaker 3: 9:40

You know it's easy to shift Right and I think we saw that you know, even, let's say, five years ago, a huge push to inclusion and belonging. But that really sat with me when she said that you know, because it's dead right, who are you practicing inclusion with? If we're all the same, we're already having those experiences. So we've got to do both. You know, I guess, is the short answer, and I think it's still a journey for many to and for us. You know as well, to position and bring about the value that diversity brings. Again, I think most organizations get that now right. All the data and research that's out there tells us it. But to really understand it when you're hiring and how to identify value you know, and how to bring in ads rather than fit, you know, um, uh, attributes and skills, that's kind of the trick that I think people are still getting their head around yeah, yeah, I think I'd agree.

Speaker 2: 10:38

I still see lots of people talking about culture fit, yeah, I'm like no, no, no.

Speaker 3: 10:45

And merit, you know like it's got to be based on merit, which you know it's. I'm not saying that that's throw that out the window. Of course you know we need to make sure that things have. You know decisions are made based on what's best for the business, the role, etc. But merit is right. Like you and I could interview a candidate and feel very differently or judge on a promotion very differently. So I guess, at the end of the day, understanding that we do have our subjectivity and our bias and ensuring you've got really those diverse perspectives in those decision-making scenarios is really gonna to help you know kind of challenge what is merit you know for said role or said you know promotion or so on.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes merit's used as a cloak, for I will be biased in who I choose and I will choose the person who's like me. They've got the same experience. They've got the same schooling. You know all of those things I wondered. You know, I think, coming from a talent acquisition recruitment background into a D&I role, you do have advantages understanding talent and the market and the processes that then happen internally but what were the disadvantages Like when you started? I think you've been in your role three years three years now, longer maybe.

Speaker 3: 12:13

Maybe two and a half. Two and a half, I'm flying by. What were the gaps? Yeah, I think you know, understanding all of the various, you know, d&i concepts was something that I didn't have such a good. Obviously I didn't have the you know the background and training and, let's say, you know where a lot of people might come from consultancies, where that's where they're really specialized, and obviously that leads to you know, sort of facilitation and training, skills you know and capabilities. So I feel like that was a gap for me and it was one that made me feel like it really challenged my confidence.

Speaker 3: 12:54

So, you know, really have a lot of self-doubt around am I saying this right? Have I understood? Et cetera. And you can pine over the wording of particular things that you're putting together, be it training or, I don't know, a presentation, or having a challenger conversation with a leader when you're not feeling super certain on the topic, um, but that came with time and I really invested a lot of time in learning more um. And then, I think, comes with comfort of realizing that you will never know everything, right, like, but if you're willing to learn and you're curious and you're willing to self-educate and surround yourself with, you know different individuals and, you know, really span your boundaries like you can pick up, you know so much of this knowledge actually quite quickly and it obviously all is very, you know, sensible and easy to navigate. It's not overly technical, let's say it's just complex because we're talking about people, yeah, yeah yeah, it's so true.

Speaker 2: 14:05

It's the reason I started this podcast, because the first E&I role I was in, I kind of thought I had it sorted. I'm a woman. I know what it's like to be a woman and be the only one in the room, have men around you all the time and wonder where everyone else is. Um, you have a child with a disability and I thought I had enough there to be able to do the work, but there was so much more to learn and I think it's the more you know, the less you know, and I'm learning every day and, um, language and concepts is changing regularly. Um, so, yeah, you've got to keep learning and yeah, it's a really hard space, I think, because it is about people, and you've got to be open to learning all that new stuff.

Speaker 3: 14:48

So, yeah, absolutely. And then you have to think about how can I translate that into you know, really digestible insights or um information for for individuals and in layman's terms, because, you know, sometimes all these you know sort of concepts get lost in in a lot of like that. You know the kind of wording around it, um, so I think that's sort of important and also being very courageous, you know, I think, um, as I said, you know I had a bit of self-doubt around. You know where I was on that journey and you know, therefore, am I really able to be an expert in this room? But I think, um, something I'm certainly working on is ensuring or really challenging myself to have that courage, because you want to step in, you know, and you want to challenge conversations, but I but you also need to be careful to not be confrontational.

Speaker 3: 15:43

You can get a lot of backlash pretty quickly around this work. Otherwise, you know, in D&I and but at the same time, whether I'm in a personal social situation or in a work situation, I want to be true to myself and to my values, to make sure I do step in with that courage, you know, and I'm not somebody who just lets things, you know, pass me by, and so on. So, yeah, I think all of these are important aspects to continue to grow with as the space changes. You know, and you know as I say, because no two people are the same, obviously. So it's not like you can just learn textbook like here's what we do in this situation.

Speaker 3: 16:22

It's A it's.

Speaker 1: 16:23

B, it's C right, you know.

Speaker 2: 16:24

so, yeah, yeah, so true so true, I liked the point about being confrontational because I find if I'm in a really good space, I can be confrontational in a way that does push people in the right directions, but sometimes, sometimes not space. I can be confrontational in a way that does push people in the right directions, but, uh, sometimes, sometimes not.

Speaker 3: 16:41

so yeah, I mean, you know we've all been at the barbecue or whatever you know, at the um, in a social setting where some of us are d and I, you know it's all fluffy work, right, um, yeah, you know, chances are.

Speaker 3: 16:54

You know people who are obviously saying that are um, you know, in the, in the kind of more dominant majority groups that aren't experiencing any of these challenges. You know um, in the same way and they have that privilege but perhaps can't understand it in in that nature. Right, because you know we all obviously all work hard to where we, to get to where we are, you know, but I think trying to learn about how that might look different for some people and why it might be an extra couple of steps is hard for individuals to grapple with sometimes, you know. But I think um, and those sorts of scenarios, you know, that's that's where I want to be able to step in, because I do believe in and respectful and inclusive workplaces and opportunity for everybody. So to let a comment like D&I's Fluffy just pass you by wouldn't sit well with me.

Speaker 2: 17:47

Not at all. I wondered how much has living and working in different places around the world? So you've lived in Australia and London Kong and also Singapore. Your home is New Zealand. How? How has living and working in all those different places, I guess, informed how you approach your work?

Speaker 3: 18:08

yeah, that's a good question. I actually think about this quite often. So I think you know, firstly, having I mean I'm obviously from the APAC region and so you know, I think I've got fairly good knowledge on across this region and I have lived in four of those four countries in this region, you know. So I've experienced, obviously, different cultures, you know, and I think it really does open your eyes to the differences that are experiences or those stereotypes, or you know the assumptions, like whatever it is that kind of just happens, you know, unfortunately, in said countries. It really does open your eyes to how that differs across the region.

Speaker 3: 18:56

You know, it's definitely not a one size fits all, obviously, but we in APAC have got a highly diverse region, as we know, but we're always like most companies, most global companies, you are operating across the region, not as a country, whereas when I'm talking to my colleagues you know they will be talking about their country, you know. So it's still complex, but it's different, right? So I think it really informs my curiosity. It's made me curious, you know, absolutely.

Speaker 3: 19:30

And you know, maybe an example of that would be when I stepped into this role you know, it was at the time that George Floyd had just been murdered, or yeah, it was very close to and the discussions on race, particularly race. You know, let's not even go to ethnicity or culture as yet, but on race isn't really a conversation that you hear in APAC, you know very often, and so you know, finding myself in these conversations, you know very often, and so you know, finding myself in these conversations, you know, with my team globally, was something that I was trying to understand a little bit more about and figure out how does this apply and how can I relate to it out here in APAC. And so I did a bit of research and reading and tried to understand more about New Zealand, you know, having grown up there and understanding where the country's at in terms of inequity, you know, across our various you know groups in New Zealand, but particularly for Maori and Pasifika, people just trying to learn more about like why is that? How did that happen? What was?

Speaker 3: 20:37

You know like, what were all of those you know, know the big, the big sort of I don't want to say big ticket item, but you know, you understand that, okay, once upon a time the country was, you know, colonized and therefore, but just to understand how it continues through generations and why, then perhaps we have thinking today, and some generations, that's very different to others. That enabled me to relate more, you know, to understanding how you know that, that these sorts of topics will show up in our region. So I hope that makes sense, like I sort of yeah, I've answered your questions in some way, but gone, you know slightly around. But yeah, I really think it just sparks your curiosity to localize. You know, um, all of you know all of these kind of concepts and all of the work that you do yeah, completely, completely.

Speaker 2: 21:33

I wanted to ask you uh, one of the things that I do as part of the culture ministry is I want to develop, I guess, people who want to move into this space. Um, we don't have enough people working in diversity and inclusion. Whenever there's a role advertised, you know the recruiters are pulling from the same pool of people. So how can we bring more people into the profession? How can we bring different lived experiences to help lead this function within organizations, and so late?

Speaker 2: 22:04

last year I ran a course, and I'll be running the course again in March, and it was that the course is called six weeks to get started in diversity and inclusion, and my intention was to really provide a platform to help people, I guess, structure how they think about the work. And so you came along, which to the course, which was great.

Speaker 3: 22:27

You had quite a bit of experience under your belt, but I wondered if you could talk about that course and and how you know who you see the course being for, and and how useful it would be yeah, um, absolutely so, I think you know, obviously, yes, I came along and, um, I'm always interested to see to, I guess, try out, you know what's out there that helps build our skills and capabilities right, because, again, when I say I came into the job, you know there was lots of sort of learning out there that will teach you about the concepts, you know, um of d and I, um, there was also a lot out there. I guess, um, let's say technically, if, um, it's about upskilling your project management skills or so on, which again is a huge um, uh benefit to what we do um.

Speaker 3: 23:10

So you know you could find all of those sorts of things. But you know, like how do I set myself up? Like what is you know? Kind of this, whether we say steps, or like what is your first, like kind of 30 or 100 days look like that was a little bit more free-flowing, and you know there wasn't really I structure to that in the same way that I have been onboarded into other roles before, right, so I think you know that's what I took away from the course that you've built there Obviously had an individual in my team come along who's new to the work, and I think that's what I found really useful is, if you worked through that method, you know, if you worked through that method, you know, when you onboarded somebody each time into this work, it would really set them up for success in the thinking about how to tackle you know building their plans in D&I?

Speaker 2: 24:14

Yeah, how to tackle the work, how to be structured, what are all the considerations? Yeah cool. What are all the considerations? Yeah cool, I guess, yeah, part of my intention was. I guess one of the real intentions with the course was you know, I've noticed that people who have lived experience are often appointed into D&I roles, which is great, but sometimes then you don't learn the other skills that you might need. So how do you influence leaders? How do you get the budget you need? How do you create a plan? How do you know where to focus? How do you communicate in the organization? So I really wanted to create something that would help all those fantastic people who've come from all different walks of life, with lots of different identities, and would give them a fighting chance to be successful.

Speaker 3: 24:56

So I think it's a good point, right, I think I, as I said, I think it's a really good framework, you know, for you know whether it's step one to step six, of kind of setting yourself up for success. I've, I've just made that up.

Speaker 1: 25:07

There was obviously more steps, more steps than that you know, what I mean but um.

Speaker 3: 25:13

But yeah, I think it's really great from from um from that point of view, absolutely, because, yeah, you're right, you know, I mean individuals that get appointed into D&I roles, largely today at the moment it's a growing industry so may not have worked in D&I before and I mean everybody has some lived experience to bring to the role. Just what is the view and the lived experience you're bringing? It's funny, though I often get asked that question, but maybe we'll get to that later um but um. But you just sort of reminded me that I think, having been in recruitment before, for me the relationship building was more natural and quite easy to sort of go and just put myself out there and, you know, speak to the senior leaders and get building those relationships.

Speaker 3: 26:03

And that is so critical because you know you need their sponsorship on this work, you need their action, they need to be accountable and to own it, otherwise you're going to struggle to, you know, really move the needle on the important aspects as it comes to, you know, the diversity of your workforce and inclusive culture, and instead you'll end up being able to deliver. You know programs and training and perhaps advocacy, work through your employee networks All good stuff, but you would probably miss those other items, right? So, yeah, yeah, I think that that just sort of reminded me of that. But you're, you're, absolutely right. It's, um, an opportunity for a framework to kind of think about all of the things that you need to do. Maybe, for example, when I stepped into the role, did I think that I would be responsible for so much reporting?

Speaker 3: 26:54

you know, know, no, I might not have realised that with you know all the work in D&I and so you know you jump in and I am tenacious enough to just learn by doing. But clearly it's easier to have a bit of a step back structure first, right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:12

Yeah, completely. I so agree. I've never done so much reporting in my life, both in data and spreadsheets, and being able to do that and then also being able to succinctly report to executive teams and boards on what's happening and I think people underestimate that bit.

Speaker 2: 27:32

It's like, oh, come and run a really nice event, well a nice, a good thing, but you've got to be able to do other stuff as well. Yeah, I wanted to come back to your work and ask you you know in the last two and a half years that you've you've been leading D&I what are you most proud of? What do you like you'll look back and go.

Speaker 3: 27:50

I did that and that went really well hmm, I think, um well, I I managed to get promoted last year, so from a personal perspective, it was I'm very proud to have achieved. So well deserved.

Speaker 3: 28:05

Thank you very, very proud to have achieved that promotion, you know, in terms of the role, you know I was obviously already operating in the, in the role you know, so it's great to have that recognition. But I think two things that I'm most proud of, you know, certainly it's been the ability to build relationships at the most senior level here in our region. You know, really lucky to have such great and open stakeholders that truly want to partner with us on this work. But because of that relationship that we've, you know know I've built with them, we really see so much progress in the region. You know, progress to our targets, um for for women, you know we're obviously focused on increasing women in leadership and and so on, you know. And progress to um many of our measures on on our inclusive culture. You know I won't go into all of them in detail, but we see the really substantial year-on-year progress and so that's great, great.

Speaker 3: 29:04

And then from, I guess, a broader aspect, if I think about some of the employee experiences, it's been amazing to see some individuals who didn't at all feel safe to share their identities at work hosting panel events now and introducing themselves, sharing their identity, you know, in full comfort and you know that's really rewarding.

Speaker 3: 29:28

You can see the engagement change, you know, with those individuals and where they're lifted to, so that's's always nice. And then I've also led some global work on accessibility, which is a huge project, but it's been very, very rewarding and really great to learn so much about the disability inclusion space. And again, you know, when you have colleagues from all around the world reaching out to you because I guess doing global projects to start off with enables you to actually, you know, get to know people right across the globe, which is great, but then when you have these colleagues reaching out saying, hey, you know, thanks so much for for driving this work, you know it's getting easier for me to to get access to accessibility, you know, whether it be tools or whether it be resources or whatever, just things are getting easier for me, so that's great.

Speaker 2: 30:21

Yeah, oh, all of that's brilliant, brilliant, and some of that stuff is harder to measure, but it's the stuff that makes you feel great about the work that you do. And when, when I first started working in diversity and inclusion, I reached out to other D&I leaders to say I'm new in my role, would you meet with me? And you know, basically help me, you know? So I had a network of people and I had some set questions that I asked all the different leaders, and one of them was where are you making progress? And none of them could tell me, um. And so I think you know it's a real testament to the work that you do that you can say we are making progress, we are getting more women in leadership roles and you are improving your metrics in other areas, and not many D&I leaders can do that.

Speaker 3: 31:14

So congratulations thank you, yeah, no, it's really great and I think to that point, you know, being ensuring you've got measures in place, you know, in the first instance, is so key, right, because the progress doesn't happen overnight, you know it takes time, right. And so, and you don't want to sound like I guess you don't want to sort of be like cop out, you know, or demotivate people like, oh, it's going to take ages, you know, don't worry about it. No, it does take some time, but you want to see that incremental progress all the way along right.

Speaker 3: 31:49

So I think having that mindset from the get go and thinking about the measures and the outcomes is critical, be it that you're measuring experiences or whatever. That might be right, um, but I think again, you touch on that in your course, right, and really thinking about those lead and lag measures and how you might think about a priority versus just this seems like what we should do.

Speaker 2: 32:15

Let's, let's go, yeah, yeah yeah, it'll make us feel good if we do this. Well, it might, but but how else can we make sure that what we're doing is the right thing to do and that it actually does make change for people? So, yeah, yeah, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, emma. I have been trying to get you on maybe for 12 months just thinking about that, and we've had a few stops and starts along the way, but it's so nice to finally speak to you and I'm sure people listening will find your wisdom so helpful, hopefully.

Speaker 3: 32:49

Thank you so much for having me. Uh, lisa, and yes, sorry this uh took us both so long to to get our act in order. But, yeah, I hope that the sharing you know can motivate or inspire you know, some individuals who might be in roles you know around the organisation thinking about moving into D&I. To you know, take the step and find ways to, you know, get those skills and jump into the work.

Speaker 1: 33:13

At the Culture Ministry, we know how challenging and lonely it can be working in diversity and inclusion and how progress is often slow. You might be just getting started in diversity and inclusion or you might be on your way. The Culture Ministry is here to help you with your diversity and inclusion progress. Go to wwwthecultureministrycom to learn more. If you enjoyed this episode and maybe learnt something, please share with your friends on social media. Give a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and leave a comment. This makes it easier for others to find A Dog Called Diversity diversity.