Juggalos & the Criminalization of Fans

In 2011, the FBI classified Juggalos - dedicated fans of horror rap group Insane Clown Posse - as a gang.  This led to Juggalos being profiled, harassed, and charged by law enforcement, and shows being canceled.  The band and several Juggalos teamed up with the ACLU to sue the FBI and the justice department.  This week, the CrimeJuicy gang picks this all the way apart - from human rights, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly, to our favorite ICP songs and Faygo flavors, to insight into the mysterious and widely misunderstood subculture of the Juggalos.

BIG thank you to Psychopathic Records for your correspondence and encouragement.  We Jugga-Love You! 

This episode was produced with support from:

M. Dante and friends' erotic anthology Cin Sado Noir, a time capsule tribute to sadomasochistic, femme fatale, and neo noir romance.

Genre-busting, multi-instrumentalist and singer-songwriter Neriah Stone Hart.  Check out his music on YouTube, Apple Music, and Pandora, and follow him on Facebook at Neriah Stone Hart to keep up with his new tracks, upcoming albums, and live performances.

Critically acclaimed musical comedian and one-mom-band Jessica Delfino on Instagram and Twitter @JessicaDelfino and on TikTok @JustSomeMom.

Want to support CrimeJuicy?  Join our Patreon community at www.Patreon.com/CrimeJuicyGang.  

Transcript

Jugga - Love You

Carrie:   [00:00:00]Welcome to the CrimeJuicy Cocktail Hour. I'm Carrie. 

Becca:    I'm Becca.

Krista:  And I'm Krista.  

Carrie:   We're going to be talking about ICP, Insane Clown Posse, and I'm here with my girls.

Krista:  I don't know if any of our fans ever went through their ICP phase or are still there, whatever. Doesn't matter to me, ICP consists of a Violent J and Shaggy2Dope. They originate from Detroit. And they were founded in 1989, which means they are definitely older than me. ICP was around before I was even able to comprehend what music was.  They are definitely an acquired taste. For me, when I was listening to their music, it was definitely being a misunderstood teenager who liked the shock value of some of their lyrics. They were also known as the JJ Boys and the Inner City Posse.  

Becca:    They were definitely towards the start of Horrorcore as a genre the origins of horrorcore actually date back to the 1980s. It's a hip hop genre that focuses on horror and supernatural elements. It's kind of like fanfic for horror movies and horror stories. It was very much inspired by the artists being inspired by horror movies and horror themes.   In 1989  Violent J and Shaggy2Dope.  They formed Psychopathic Records to be their production label.  There was a lot of gangster rap going on.  They dropped their first self-produced album.  

Krista:  I've personally never heard their first album. 

Becca:    Well, that was so that was from before they switched their names to Insane Clown Posse.  There were some other rappers around their area that were doing horrorcore style.  It was actually Shaggy2Dope that was like, we should change our name to Insane Clown Posse so we can keep the ICP initials.   We gotta stand out.  Later that night, Violent J had a dream that there were these carnival characters. It was a dark carnival of soul-style dream affirming the name change in the genre change.   Since then they've had two platinum albums, five gold, tens of thousands of dedicated followers called Juggalos.

Krista:  And the Juggalettes!

Becca:     Hell yeah, and Gathering of the Juggalos and two movies.  Dog Beats. Dog Beats was Released in 1991 shortly after they founded Psychopathic Records.  It was after that, that they established themselves as horrorcore changed the name to Insane Clown Posse, and then Violent J had his dream in which spirits and a traveling carnival appeared to him.

Carrie:  On October 18th, 1992, Insane Clown Posse released their debut album Carnival of Carnage.  

 Becca:  It was interesting cause their music and their lyrics have centered around the mythology of the dark carnival, which they developed. 

Carrie:  That's the first joker card, right? The first joker card came out, then.

Becca:     It's a metaphorical limbo in which the labs of the dead are judged. The stories are told through joker cards and it's basically designed to show people the evil of their ways and give them a choice.  It's a really interesting way to go about telling a story and creating art.  

Krista: There's a mixture of  Dante's Inferno in there.  Heaven and hell, demons, angels.

Becca:  The thing about ICP and Juggalo culture in general that I've noticed.  I am not a jugglette. Not because I don't love the band and I don't love Juggalos and jugglettes that are very close to my heart. All y'all out there. Thank you so much.  I do love the band so much, but from the outside, and I think a lot of people looking in, you know, see this as very a base level, oh, they're just trying to shock you. Or, these are dumb people or whatever, but then you look a little closer and it's, actually  rich with symbolism and  rich with connection. It's a very nurturing and supportive community. And there's a lot of positive messages wrapped up within the shock within the the difficult concepts you know, they do their lyrics. You talk about a lot of this stuff that we talk about. I was reading it, oh, murder, cannibalism, necrophilia.  But they've always opposed racism, bigotry, domestic violence and child abuse. 

Krista: It comes across very, very clear in a lot of their lyrics. Yeah.  

Becca:  If you just think of it, listen to the lyrics on the surface level, it's violent and disturbing, but you'd look deeper and there's these deeper…It's about justice.  They came out against the Gulf War.  They've criticized elitism and they've highlighted the struggles of the working class and people living in poverty.  There's a lot of depth. There's a lot of depth going on and yeah.  

Krista: If you can't necessarily stomach, listening to it with their voices and the beats and all the extra to it, just look up the lyrics.  If you'd rather read it, sometimes you might actually be like, oh, okay. Now I get poetic. 

Carrie:   It's very poetic. 

Krista: It's very well, except for Me and My Ax - hold on this isn't, this is a song called My Ax - I quote, “Me and my ax cut bigots , spinal cords in half. My ax is my buddy and when I wind him back, me and my ex will give your forehead a butt crack.”  End quote. 

Carrie:   So poetic. 

Becca:    Yeah, and then Krista what's up with their doing a lot of philanthropy just throughout their career,  especially now dealing with the water crisis in Detroit and…

Krista:  They do a lot and they do a lot undercover, they always say, make moves inside.  They're really good at that, but they do have a lot of charities out there that you can find. They don't necessarily put their names all over it.  The most well-known is obviously Toys for Tots, here in Minneapolis, we have Toys for Ta-Tas where if you bring toys to a strip club, they donate all of them and you get in for free. It's similar to those things. They also do a lot of work for abuse shelters, homeless shelters in a lot of things in Detroit, they're definitely working on getting the lights turned back on.  In Detroit, because that is still an issue. Just like the water is the water in Flint, Michigan that is still not working since 2014.  They're dying from it if they don't have access to anything clean. They also do a lot of work with fathers that are being, I would, I'm trying to.  Helping dads that are being kept away from their children under false pretenses. They do so much. And then the Gathering of the Juggalos is also a charity in itself. They take a lot of those proceeds and donate it to their various charities and schools, amazingly, a lot of schools in the Detroit area. Surrounding areas of Detroit. Not that there's really schools in Detroit.  The surrounding areas.

Becca:   There’s probably schools in Detroit.

Krista:  Nobody lives there…nobody  well, I mean, people live there, I don't know. Detroit scary. I feel it's a third world country within…

Becca:   Is it like a dark circus? Is it like a dark carnival of souls? 

Krista:  There are literally no streetlights, literally, no streetlights.  It's terrifying. And some people still live there.

Carrie:   They are taking…they are taking it over there doing some guerrilla gardening. They're taking whole areas that have been just demolished. 

Krista:  Yeah. But they are extremely immersed in their community, and I will get all of those names and they will all be listed in the description of the show so that if you do feel so inclined to go and help any of the many things that they help with it, because it's important. It's important to even though, it's an eclectic taste. 

Becca:   They’re doing good things. So before we get into the nuts and bolts of this episode, it is important to know what in fact a Juggalo is.  And I'm, funny. So I was at this open mic in Southern Oregon. It was years and years and years ago.  And they were doing this,  the spoken word poet dude was  doing this charity to save the wild Buffalo or something.  And he's, I need a word that rhymes with Buffalo and my partner at the time, screamed out Juffalo! And he's like, I want a real word. And he's, Juffalo’s a real word!  Juffalo’s not a Juggalo, Juffalo’s a wannabe Juggalo, but it was a funny night.  But that being said, you may not know what a Juggalo is. We're going to tell you. It's the, dedicated fans of ICP called themselves Juggalos, Juggalettes. They will, you know, go to shows, listen to the music. Basically, it kinda really does echo what brought the band together in the first place. It was just the sense of belonging in this family and just supporting each other against all odds and kind of like uniting of the underdogs to make something real and beautiful.  They like Faygo.

Krista:  Faygo’s delicious. They drink Faygo in my house like on the regular. I remember my son came home the other day. He went up to the corner store and I know they don't sell it throughout the entire country. I think it's just a Midwest thing. So if you don't have Faygo, it's pretty much just like a Shasta or a Tab Cola or something like that.  But my son comes home and he's like, they have this new soda called Faygo, and I just busted out laughing cause, oh my gosh, I have been drinking that since before you were even a thought in my brain.

Carrie:  My favorite flavor’s orange.

Krista:   I like strawberry Kiwi. 

Becca:  There are so many flavors.

Krista:  Pineapple gives me heartburn in my old age.

Carrie:  But the pineapple one's good too.

Krista:   It's really good with whiskey.

Carrie:   Whiskey’s good with anything. 

Krista:   The strawberry one is pretty good. The strawberry one is better than the Fanta.

Becca:   Faygo tasting can put it in wine glasses and waft it. 

Krista:   If anybody wants a YouTube video of us trying, let us know.

Becca:   And then at the end of the episode, we could just reveal that there was actually  whiskey and all of them to you. 

Krista:   Oh yeah, because that's what makes it…

Carrie:    That's the reveal for our bonus content. 

Becca:    We love Insane Clown Posse, Insane Clown Posse’s awesome. Y'all should know about the quiet ninja [00:10:00] awesome shit that they do too. But. Juggalos were targeted by the FBI in 2011 and that's led to this massive legal debacle for the band, for Psychopathic Records for Juggalos and for human rights in general.  It's it's interesting cause when it first came out in 2011, the National Gang Intelligence Center center, Threat Assessment officially, what was. That the official, it's not officials a weird word here. So it designated Juggalos as a gang in the National Threat Assessment Report in 2011.  The National Gang Intelligence Center, designated Juggalos quote unquote, “a loosely organized hybrid gang.” The reasoning for it: “ICP fans call themselves Juggalos and demonstrate their affiliation with the group by wearing obtaining or displaying distinctive tattoos, art, clothing, symbols, or insignia, including clown face paint and the hatchet man logo.”  Appellant…basically “Juggalos associate with each other, listen to ICP music, share ideas surrounding the music and express their support of, or interest in the idea that ICP expresses through its music to express their affiliation with ICP, the artists on its record label and to express their affiliation with one another.”

“Juggalos associate with each other to listen to ICP music, share ideas surrounding the music, express their support of her interest in ideas that ICP expresses through its music to express their affiliation with ICP and the artists on its record label and to express their affiliate ideation with one another.”

That sounds like freedom of association and how much overlap there is between the definition of a gang and the First Amendment’s freedom of association, you know, to associate with each other. Right. To basically associate with people that you agree with and to show support each other.  Basically the 2011 National Gang Assessment Emerging Trends report based on data from the National Drug Intelligence Center, the National Gang Center and open source documents from state, federal, and local law enforcement stated, “many Juggalos subsets exhibit gang, like behavior and engaging criminal activity.  Most of the crimes committed by Juggalos are sporadic, disorganized and individualistic and relatively minor.”

Krista:   That sounds like an organized gang. 

Becca:   Yes. So, so some examples of crimes that Juggalos have committed. And when I was researching this, I read the Wikipedia page and this wasn't Juggalos. This was basically a night that ended in battery charges at a Waffle House in Indianapolis, but I feel like that could happen a lot. Crimes included a simple assault, personal drug use, personal drug possession, petty theft, and vandalism. Yes for personal use. And then law enforcement reporting suggests that Druggalo criminal activity has increased over the past several years as of 2011.

Krista:   I just say Druggalo?

Becca:   I did.

Krista:    Okay.  Now the reason, because the only reason I bring that up is because that is another association that people from the outside that don't take the time to investigate anything. I could see someone calling, oh, one of those stupid Druggalos over there. You know, I could see it happening. 

Becca:   Or a Druggalo’s a pharmacist.  Your pharmacist has an ICP tattoo, like a hatchet man on his arm. And you're, oh shit!  It’s a Druggalo.

Krista:   There we go. Hey, you know what? There are pharmacists, they're secret about it. I'm not gonna lie. There's some interesting people that go to those festivals. 

Becca:   Right. Basically Juggalos in general got labeled as they got classified as a gang by, in this report and it started causing them a whole host of problems. In 2014 Juggalos and Insane Clown Posse partnered with the ACLU.  They sued the Department of Justice and the FBI in the case Parsons vs United States Department of Justice. Which is awesome. Basically the appellants identified this Juggalos and say they don't knowingly affiliate with the criminal gang.  They've had their fifth amendment and due process rights and their first amendment rights violated because of this classification.  So they were basically suing the epartment of Justice and the FBI for being responsible for their fifth and first amendment rights being violated.  Here the appellant Mark Parsons who is on the title of it, he's got a trucking business in Utah called Juggalo Express LLC. And his semi-truck is decorated with large hatchet man logo. He was detained in Tennessee by a state trooper and he was specifically stopped because the trooper in question suspected him of being a gang member because of the logo. He was illegally detained. Brandon Bradley's another appellant. He was detained in questioned multiple times in the state of California by both state and local law enforcement specifically because of his clothing and his tattoos having ICP insignia and symbols. Scott Mandy is another appellant.  This is just like a small subsection.   There's tens of thousands of Juggalos and a lot of people have been having their rights violated because of this classification. Scott Gandy was told by an army recruitment officer that he'd have to remove or permanently cover his Juggalo tattoos before being admitted into the armed forcement into the armed forces.  Army Corporal Robert Helmenn is another appellant, appellant.  and he says he's in imminent danger of suffering discipline or involuntary discharge from the army due to his visible Juggalo tattoos.  Then Joseph Bruce and Joseph Utsler who are Violent J and Shaggy2Dope respectively had a concert at the Oak Music Theater in Michigan canceled due to the Juggalo gang designation. But there's been just anecdotal stories from friends of mine who identify as Juggalos and wear face paint to ICP concerts, directly after concerts, they're detained because of their face paint or just being specifically targeted because of a band that they love. That's, that's messed up. .

Carrie:  Every juggle though I've known has always been a very nice, funny person. The face makeup is scary.

Becca: And apparently it can protect you from facial recognition software. 

Krista:  That's why they don't look. 

Becca: Yeah.  So you’ve got these guys taken on the Department of Justice and the FBI and the ACLU helping them. This is pretty epic. I don't think that the FBI and the DOJ expected this kind of pushback and this kind of tactical pushback. There was a motion to dismiss the case and it was granted because the gang designation wasn't a final agency action, but this decision to dismiss was reversed.  The trial is still going on as of 2014.  At this point, the DOJ and the FBI are claiming that it's not their fault that all of these people's first amendment rights have been violated because it wasn't their fault that local law enforcement took the content of the Gang Threat Assessment seriously. 

Krista:   Why did you guys even have to do an assessment?  

Becca: They're high authority. It's the Department of Justice and the FBI and they're saying, well, it's not our fault law enforcement listens to us. 

Carrie:  Somebody did it on purpose within the government.  You know how all these police departments are training tactically, military wise, and all that.  The facial recognition thing, we've got a lot of components here that we have to plug together because that's an unsafe group.  Does that make sense, in their eyes, so that they can look at it and study it? That's why they wanted it designated that way. They knew that people were safe. They knew they weren't bad people. They just needed something to test shit on.  Why would you, why are we wasting the money on the trial?

Krista:  There's musical bands that their fans are actually freaking terrifying. 

Carrie:  Give me an example.

Krista:  I worked at a nightclub as a cocktail waitress. There was a DJ, I guess he's not necessarily a musical artist, but.  

Carrie:  Well, yeah, they are. 

Krista:  Yeah. He was a DJ, but every time he came, the building, the owner was awful and [00:20:00] he would let more people than the Fire Marshall would allow in that building. He was a hype DJ and every time he was there, someone got stabbed, someone got shot. Someone's car got stolen. There was a stampede of peoples.  Someone got jumped on the dance floor. People throwing chairs off the balcony.  I'm just standing there as a cocktail waitress.  I got used, every time he would come. I was so used to it. I got used to walking through clouds of pepper spray.

Becca:  People got too hyped! 

Krista:  There's no situations and I've never seen, Hey, we get hyped and it gets sticky and you know, you might…

Becca:  Get covered in Faygo. 

Krista:   You might come out with a yeast infection from all the sugar, but you don’t go home with a stab wound.

Carrie:  I understand that, but, you got the football fans in there, the soccer, if you gotta put everybody there,

Krista:   hockey moms, hockey moms.  Baseball moms. Baseball moms, moms.  Football moms. Oh!

Carrie:  Cheerleader moms will kill your ass. 

Krista:   They'll get ya. 

Carrie:  They’ll kill you. 

Krista:   Yeah, they will. They will pay someone to kill you. 

Becca:  Giving you ideas, Department of Justice… 

Krista:   They are more dangerous than jugglos.

Becca:   Oh, my God, you know, the Department of Justice and the FBI will never qualify those or classify those moms as a threat. They're like, no, those bitches are gonna get us.

Krista:   PTO moms.

Becca:   More dangerous than Juggalos.  The other interesting thing that, the arguments that the Department of Justice and the FBI put forth,  it was almost like they castrated themselves to save themselves here.  The other thing was they were like, it's not our fault if law enforcement doesn't take our advice or  defer to us.  And then the other thing was they asserted that the Gang Threat Assessment can't be reviewed by the court, which, one of the Juggalo attorneys brought up three years later, when this all kind of settled out was, well, if these can't be reviewed by courts,  how are people supposed to challenge them being unjust?

Carrie:   Yeah.

Becca:   Yeah. 

Carrie:   This is America. You guys keep forgetting. 

Becca:   December 16th, 2017. The Juggalo March in Washington, DC occurred, there were about 1500 people.  This coincided with the Pro-Trump rally, completely overshadowed the Pro-Trump rally. The Juggalo March turned into an all-day rally and concert.  It was interesting because the speakers also brought up the point that declaring Juggalos a gang is class-based discrimination, which I think is entirely true. And especially considering the lyrical themes and stuff, and just the kind of activism and philanthropy that this band does and where they came from and who Juggalos are, I think is entirely true.  That was such an interesting day.  

Krista:  They did it on purpose. They knew people would find them more interesting any day, than Trump supporters.

Becca:   If 1500 Juggalos showed up at anywhere it would be the most interesting thing that had happened all day. That's happened. And then there was a lot of momentum behind it.  The dismissal decision got reversed. They had this March, it was all out in the news. People were starting to pay attention.  Then on December 18th, 2017, the case was dismissed finding that the Department of Justice and the FBI are not responsible for Juggalo rights being violated by third parties because quote unquote, “the Juggalo gang designation does not result in legal consequences because it does not impose liability, determined, legal rights or obligations or mandate, bind, or limit other government actors,” end quote.  The Juggalo gang designation does not result in legal consequences because the harms that appellants suffered were caused by third parties who discretionarily relied on the gang designation. The government officials who harmed appellants were not bound by the Juggalos gang designation, nor were they required to consider the 2011 NGIC report, which sets a weird precedent because.  Yeah, it means that DOJ, that a local federal and state law enforcement, aren't supposed to take FBI threat assessment seriously. 

Krista:  That's okay.

Carrie: They don't realize how bad it is, what they did.

Becca:   It was terrible.  As of 2018, one of the silver linings is they lost the court trial, but they weren't fucked with again.  The DOJ and the FBI haven't listed Juggalos as a gang in any subsequent report, I think largely in part, because they fought back and the DOJ and the FBI weren't expecting that.  But the 2011 designation has continued to haunt the record label and the band and their fanbase.  And there's no legal recourse for this harassment that they've been suffering.  It highlights something really messed up about your first amendment right, freedom of speech, freedom of association your right to associate with people who you share stuff in common with, sharing ideas, listening to music together, sharing ideas about said music together.  There is a lot of overlap between what the first amendment is and what a gang designation says.  Basically it allows for it's it's the system protecting itself.  It's basically the Department of Justice and the FBI being like, we can say whatever we want about you and we can't be held responsible for what our threat assessment does to you, even if it's wrong.

Krista: But if you say anything out of line, We'll sue you or put you in jail.

Becca:  If law enforcement would be held accountable for not taking threat assessment seriously, or if there's some sort of review process in that.

Krista: Probably!  They’d be oh, see, we told you this is going to happen, but we also told them that you shouldn't take it seriously. 

Carrie:  My attorney can come in with this piece of paper that has precedent set that says I don't have to take shit seriously and throw it down on the table and they can't do shit. That's dangerous. 

Krista: They've kind of hung themselves by going back and saying, well, we didn't expect them to take us seriously. They kind of hung themselves on that one.  That's probably why they're, damn it. 

Becca:  Those wicked clowns got us!  

Krista: Nobody else takes them seriously. We just did it because just to piss him off, I don't know.

Carrie:   If they get arrested, they need to get in front of a jury. They need to show him, this case, and explain the situation. They take people's stuff too when they do this shit. 

Becca:  Oh, right. Yeah. Cause there's like theft involved. 

Carrie:   Legal, legal theft, 

Krista: Quote unquote legal theft. 

Becca:  Yep. So these are massive human rights issues.  What happened is these people had their rights violated and there was no legal recourse through a series of technicalities and  kind of loopholes. It sets a really terrible precedent that you like a band can cause you to be associated with the gang. 

Carrie:   What if it was Prince?  I mean, everybody would be so pissed.  You're like, no way FBI, you guys can…

Krista: They’re like, are you serious?

Carrie:   It's it's people need to look at it that way for John Denver. I mean, anybody pick something.

Krista: What was it that happened with the Grateful Dead and their following? Didn't something happen? 

Carrie:   Well what didn’t happen with the Grateful Dead?

Krista:  I suppose everything, but didn't they almost get classified. 

Becca:  Yeah. I think, something close to that. And listeners, let us know if you've got anecdotal or stories or whatever about other bands that had had their fan base criminalized. We were going to research it more, but we got so caught up on ICP.  Another interesting thing where it brought up at the Juggalo March that this is class-based discrimination is a lot of anti-gang legislation and enforcement. Well, A) they violate the right of association and the right of assembly because community injunctions and loitering are the go-to things for interfering with people that they are quote, unquote, thought to be a gang or whatever, but loitering, you know, hanging out somewhere without paying for shit?  That's a class issue. Being somewhere with other people without spending money is a class issue.  That's, you, it's illegal to be somewhere with other people.  What the fuck are we even talking about? 

Krista:  Well it’s anything since last year.  We’ve all kind of experience that? 

Becca:  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, well, you know, we’re not just talking about Juggalos, but talking about any gang classification, you know, just because it's an unpopular segment of the population through a lot of people's eyes it doesn't give society the right to restrict their constitutional rights.

Krista:   It's a home for those who don't feel like they fit in or have a place.  

Becca:  People end up drawn to this music in the subculture because in a lot of ways, they didn't fit in. They were bullied and other getting bullied by their own government. This whole perpetuation of  kicking the underdog.

Krista:  Or they found a better way to deal with the scum of our earth.  I don't know some of those things that they talk about I'm not opposed to.

Becca:  Because the dark thing is all about  facing , the [00:30:00] consequences of your actions and redemption. Right?  They're not leaving behind the, the lowest of the low or they're, you did this shit and there will be consequences.

Krista:  And then repent. You don't get to say I'm sorry. And it's all good. Cause that's how, I mean, personally for me, for some  of the things that people do in our lifetime, you shouldn't just get to go, do you know, five Hail Mary's and you know, not jack off for a month or whatever the hell it is.  Nope, you're all forgiven.  You molesting those 12 children means absolutely nothing.

Becca:  It's an interesting juxtaposition because it has come out that ICP has Christian beliefs, that they do believe in God, but not in the, you get off easy redemption part of religion. 

Krista:  No, I guess maybe more old Testament.

Becca:  Yeah. It would be…

Krista:  Oh!  Maybe the church of Wells listens to ICP. Yeah.

Becca:  They’re in the circus tent…

Krista:  In the farmhouse next to their neighbor. Oh my God. They're definitely Satanic.

Becca:  ICP loves God, have a concert.

Krista:  Fire and brimstone God. 

Becca:   It'll piss off the neighbor and they will have, you all have so much fun.

Krista:  Can we be there?

Becca:   If ICP hears that they're like, what have you done?

Krista:  Every one of their records has a story to it. It has those crazy quirky songs and who like what?  But each song actually is a story and there is a chronical logical order to those. And there is also a chronical logical order to all of their songs on all. 

Becca:   Yep. Every song forwards the plot a little bit. So it's kind of, it's interesting. It's definitely like hearkens back to Deltron 3030, or  even like Pink Floyd or what does it, the Who with the rock operas, their rock operas. 

Krista:  Dude, they could so totally make a musical out of the whole Great Milenko. That would I, would I pay for that?  That I guess it would be a horror opera?

Becca:   A horror opera.  ICP, if you guys are listening, we want to horror opera. 

Carrie:   Lovely. 

Krista:  Do that. Hey, I don't know if anybody saw Repo Man with Paris Hilton in it. 

Becca:   I love the old Repo Man. I love the old Repo Man.  

Krista:  I think that the, an ICP Great Milenko horror opera would be much better than that one.  If you can't actually listen to it, if you don't want to listen to it, read it, read their lyrics, pick a song, read their lyrics. Some of them you're, what the hell is going on?  But then just think about it.  If you're a gentleman and you decided to go read their lyrics and you're sitting there drinking beers with some of your friends…

Becca:   Maybe you just put it on, maybe turn it up to  as high as you can go. I've brought this up on several occasions, but every time ICP comes on the night always ends in balls.  Someone's balls, somewhere that, you know, sometimes it’s a nut weave.

Krista:   Clip-on is easiest.  Isn’t a pubic hair weave called a merkin?

Becca:   Oh no. That's that, I think that's the pubic hair wig. 

Krista:   Oh, okay. 

Becca:   Yes. 

Krista:   Okay.

Becca:   There's so many rabbit holes you can go down and you know, just the human rights issues involved with the criminalization of the fans of a band, and why this specific band was targeted.  Just the reasoning for why they were in there in the first place was mostly petty crimes and disorganized and individualistic by its own definition.  It was really interesting reading the entry. In the NGIC 2011, because it was they’re a gang because of  these factors, but they were mostly, they’ve got similar tattoos, but all the crimes that they commit are not organized.

Krista:   Yeah. They they're a gang, but they operate individually of each other. There is no communication. There is no organization. There are no plots. It just depends on who took too much that day. 

Becca:    Marilyn Manson fans, dude, Maryland Manson caught a ton of flack for, especially post Columbine, Oh, their music made them do it. 

Krista:   Oh you know, the new argument might be, his music made him an abuser. 

Becca:    Oh, gosh.  I was listening to this interview with a Violent J and Shaggy2Dope and, dude I love listening to everything that comes out of Violent J's mouth. That dude is articulate and deep without being pretentious about it. But it was about the time where he was signing an album for this kid and he was in clown makeup and he was, have you done drugs yet? And the kid's, no.  And he was, Oh, go home and smoke something. And he caught a lot of shit for that. And when he was asked about that, he was, If some big fat dude in clown makeup tells you to go home and smoke something and you do, that's not the clown's fault. 

Krista:   No, it's, I mean, if you think about it, you have the, no, there is no thinking about it.  You have your own choice free will.

Becca:    I thought that was just like a really awesome articulate point.  Or just, you know, just bringing shit back around where it's kids aren't dumb.  People, people have, you can't blame the music you can't blame, I don't know. There's just, there's just so much of a breadth of musical tastes, artistic expression. You can blame really anything on anything if you want to have a witch hunt.

Krista:   Yeah. Oh, you can go on music, witch hunts forever. And I will say. Maybe not like my super favorite genre of music, I'll listen to it. I like to exercise to it, but Lil’ NasX and Cardi B, Cardi B’s extremely outwardly sexual.  Awesome. Love it. Lil’ NasX is an outwardly gay hip hop rapper. Awesome. He just got flagged for giving the devil a lap dance.

Becca:    Lil’ Nas X gave the Devil a lap dance? 

Krista:   They said outwardly, don't leave it up to me to raise your kids.  I did not make this music for kids. This is for an adult. So if you are letting your child listen to this and letting your child make their life decisions off of what they see in a music video, you need to question what's going on in your home.  Not mine. 

Becca:    Cause I'm all up on the dick in my home.  

Krista:   Cardi B is, I don't let my daughter listened to my music. Are you fucking insane? She's four.  

Becca:    It's really easy blame artists for societal problems. It's easy to blame artists for societal problems, you know, because a lot of the stuff that they sing about, they're gaining inspiration by observing, critiquing and talking about the society that they live in, that's giving rise to these issues that they're now being blamed for talking about.   It's this weird kind of gag order where it's we've got all these problems, but we can't talk about them because then you know, it's going to be uncomfortable. 

Krista:   Yeah. Well that's the Great Gatsby.  I wanna know how the great Gatsby of the rich elite pretty much getting away with murder because his mistress was pretty much a poor hooker constitutes, you know, assassinating people.  How did the, the privilege of the elite turn into somebody assassinating?  How did that piece of art get lumped into that?  I mean, at least that's what I took from the great Gatsby was, you know, the whole elitist lifestyle and getting to do whatever you want and having no consequences.

Becca:    Yeah. And then here comes a wicked clown to put a butt crack in your head and he's the bad guy?  Come on. 

Krista:   Exactly. At least they're forward with what they're doing. Shit.

Becca:     I'm trying to put an ax in your head because.

Krista:    Oh, I watched you beat your wife. Now I'm going to beat you. You know, I'm, I'm chill with that. Their expectations are clear.  The 10 Commandments: don't be a Dick.

Becca:      Or God I'll put an ax in your head.

Krista:     There we go.  And God will put an X in your head. Thank you all for joining us. 

Becca:    We also want to say thank you to Psychopathic Records. You guys have been like so positive and so supportive. We did reach out to them for an interview. Of course they were busy, but our Psychopathic Records contact is just been the most encouraging kind and awesome person.  And just, you know, it's and just totally echoes the positivity involved  in all of this. And we just want to say a big, big, big, thank you. 

Krista:     If you need an admin, I'm only in Minnesota. Not that far. 

Becca:   She can remote office it so good, and she’ll do it in clown makeup if you want her to.

Krista:  I will. I will. .

Carrie:   Stay juicy.  

Krista:  Stay juicy y’all.  There you go. 

Becca:   Whoop. Whoop.

Krista:   Bye guys

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