Dominance, Desire, & Spicy Romance with Lizzie B. Brown

 Episode 518: Dominance, Desire, & Spicy Romance with indie author Lizzie B. Brown!
Lizzie is a romance author who packs the spice into every story. She lives in the Pacific Northwest with her family and two dogs. When she's not writing about bisexual besties or forbidden romances, you can find her by the fireplace with a book in one hand and a glass of red wine in the other. Find out more: http://www.lizziebbrown.com/

Welcome to our writing chat! We dive into the steamy world of romance and erotica. We explore the importance of including sex in romance stories to give readers the full picture of a relationship. We discuss Lizzie's book, Obedience, Volume One, (excerpt in the episode), a captivating age-gap romance where the female lead takes charge, challenging the conventional dynamics often seen in such stories. Discover how Lizzie's experiences and love for storytelling have shaped her writing process, from fanfiction beginnings to self publishing on platforms like Kindle Vella.

Lizzie also shares insights into her writing routine, the challenges of editing, and the significance of patience and perseverance in the writing journey. If you're a fan of romance that embraces the raw, unfiltered aspects of relationships, you won't want to miss this episode.

00:02:10 " romance is incomplete if it doesn't have sex
00:07:34 " I think erotica helps people become more open about their sexuality
00:10:43 " You started writing erotic fan fiction early on
00:12:12 " Pantser or plotter?
00:15:01 " write on my phone more often than not because I'm easily distracted
00:17:03 " I really love age gap romance. But I know some people don't like
00:22:46 " Do you find you have more female readers or male readers
00:29:11 " Reading a book together can be a great conversation starter
00:29:44 " Do you have a favorite and worst part of the writing process
00:32:55 " I actually started writing again because of audiobooks
00:41:30 " Vella
00:46:18 " Do you find you ever have to do much research?
00:47:27 " What was an early experience where you learned that language had power
00:49:01 " Do you tend to share your work with people in your life
00:54:12 " What do you define as success as an author?
01:00:29 " Is there any advice you have for someone considering doing...

BOOKS!
Obedience Volume One (affiliate link, podcast may receive a commission on purchases, thanks for the support): https://amzn.to/3TVBHoM
Vella https://amzn.to/4dBYGMB
Friendsgiving with Benefits: https://amzn.to/47VwnaL

Erotica & erotic romance author Ruan Willow's new fiction book, a Romantasy, open door romance, HEA, fantasy Wingless Hunger https://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/winglesshunger
GET AN ARC: https://forms.gle/WKJhu3wyQvRora6e6

Ruan Willow's books: http://books.ruanwillowauthor.com/

headliner assistan

Chapters

• 2:05 Excerpt from the book Obedience Volume 1

Transcript

Oh F*ck Yeah with Ruan Willow Podcast. This transcript was created by headliner ai and was not edited by a human therefore it will not be 100% accurate. Please excuse typos. Email ruanwillow@gmail.com with questions. Ruan Willow is misspelled throughout this transcript.

Season 4, Episode 518:

This is the Ruan Willow podcast. Hello, everyone. I'm so excited you're here

>> Ruan Willow: Hello, everyone. This is Ruan Willow with the. Oh, Fuck yeah. With Ruan Willow podcast. I'm so excited you're here. I get to talk to another author. I'm so excited. I love talking to other authors, especially someone who likes to write what I like to write, which is romance with sex in it. Because to me, that's the full picture, right? I like the full picture of the relationship, not this. And then chop. Stuff's off. No closed doors. I want to know the full thing, baby. Okay, if you are under 18, it is time for you to leave the podcast now, because we are going to be talking potentially about sex and sexuality, writing about sex, and we're going to have an excerpt of the writing of this person.


Two of my books have now gone into paperback

Before we get to meeting that person, I want, to just show I have two of my books that have now gone into paperback. Wicked and spicy tales, which is some short stories, and this one servicing the workmen. And this one is six novellas, and it's servicing the workmen, her filthy hot wife adventure. So those are now in paperback, if anybody wants to check those out. And, hey, you need to check out my guest's work. And her name is Lizzie B. Brown. And I'm going to read a little bio, and then we're going to. We're going to meet up with her. Okay. Are you ready? I sure am. Okay. Lizzie is a romance author. Lizzie P. Brown, I who packs the spice into every story. She lives in the Pacific Northwest with her family and two dogs. When she's not writing about bisexual besties or forbidden romances, you can find her by the fireplace with book in one hand and a glass of red wine in the other. Woohoo. That's like, me, too. Red wine. Yes. And you can check out her website at, lizziebbrown.com. and I'll put the links to these all down in the podcast. Show notes for places I can put in descriptions and links to her books. Obedience, volume one. She has a discord for her readers and hype squad if you want to join her street team. And she has stuff on Vella, contemporary romance serials. Okay, let's get into this excerpt. Obedience, volume one. And then we'll get into the interview.


Lizzy says romance is incomplete if it doesn't have sex

>> Speaker B: Cassie was going to be the death of me. It would be a glorious death, full of beautiful temptation, but still death. She seemed to have a real knack for flooding my life with a heavenly sort of chaos. When I awoke this morning, I decided to hit up my favorite coffee place for breakfast. Aside from whatever beguiling disaster I was walking into with Cassy. The first couple of days had gone well. I wanted to reward myself. I had been all ready to head out when a text came from Godus. Clever girl, not, putting her real name in my phone. I smiled the moment I saw the notification, more than eager to see what she had sent. Expecting some cute little good morning message or something about how she couldnt wait to see me in class. I was more than surprised when five pictures popped up. Very risque pictures. My cock stiffened as I scrolled through, inspecting each one. Cassy had obscured her face in the photo. I wonder if she knew how crazy hiding her face would make me when she sent them. Luckily, her face was the only thing that was covered. The glace that she was wearing was so see through that I wouldn't consider it functional lingerie. Was she going to be sitting in my class with this on under her clothes? If Cassie was trying to get my attention, she had it. I tried to call her, but my attempt went straight to voicemail. I tried a few more times and with each failed attempt, my chest tightened a little more until I couldnt breathe. It felt like Janet all, over again. It made me sick. This, whatever it was, couldnt end before I had a chance to really begin. My hand gripped the phone as I tried leaving a message one last time. Please don't ignore me, Cassie. Please. I just want to hear your voice. I begged. My words were strained from my panic. I thought maybe the pictures were a gift, but the way she so easily shunned me made me question her motive. Cassie had me desperate to crawl on the ground and beg for her attention. She seemed to bring out that part of me so easily.

>> Ruin Willow: Lizzy, welcome. I'm so excited you're here.

>> Speaker C: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

>> Ruin Willow: This is gonna be fun. I love to talk writing with other people. And so, you know, what do you think? Do you think that romance is like, incomplete if it doesn't have sex? I mean, that's my opinion. What's your opinion?

>> Speaker C: I do think so. I mean, I think it's possible to do a story if it doesn't get to that point. But there's something about, sometimes when you read those closed doors, it feels like it's. It really is. It's skipping apart. Like, I almost think you have to, like really, really work it. Like, I don't want to say the relationship can't get to that point without it, but I just. If it does feel incomplete, like so too often when I've had stumbled upon a closed door. It was like, you get to that moment, and then you skip, and I'm like, what just happened?

>> Ruin Willow: Right? It's a little.

>> Speaker C: It's a little jarring for me.

>> Ruin Willow: It is a little jarring, I have to say, you know, and I actually have a book out there that's. It's, closed door romance. And I used to. I have still have books in it that I still would like to publish there, but I hate it when I read an entire book, and then in the end, they kiss, and that's it. I'm like, oh, you're killing me here. And I just want more. I want the full, fleshed out relationship. I don't, like you said, close the door. Something's missing. You know, because people are so vulnerable when they're having sex. You can learn so much about a character, through their sexual interactions, and I know some people have the opposite opinion, but I think you can learn a lot because that's when they're the most vulnerable.

>> Speaker C: Well, and I think so many other media skips that, and I understand that lately, m especially with more live action stuff, like, not every actor is going to be comfortable with those scenes, and that's fine. And I feel like books are the one place where you really don't have to worry about that. So it's. You have the permission to show everything, and as you said there, so vulnerable. It's not always about the actions that are going on when the doors open. It's about what you're feeling and what you're thinking, like. And that's one of the things I discovered, like, when writing is some people do have the different styles where they're very. They do it well, but it's very. The mechanicals of what's going on in the bedroom. And some people, I'll realize I've read a spicy scene, and I'm not entirely sure what the actions they were doing were, because it's so focused on the feelings and the emotions. And I don't. I like when you're reading it, you don't even care that you don't know the specifics, because it's the. What's going on in the moment that matters.

>> Ruin Willow: Right? Right. Oh, absolutely. And I just. I just think that.


I think erotica helps people become more open about their sexuality

I don't know, it's just. It's so much more complete, and it just. Yeah, I feel like it's chopped off. When we don't get those pieces, I feel like we're not getting the full story. And I feel like I just. I want the full story. I want the full thing. I want to know how they're feeling when they're being touched, when they're experiencing an orgasm. I want to know that stuff. That stuff is important to me. And to me, erotica and erotic romance smut is the culmination of all that romance. So for people that say it's a separate thing and it's not worthy, I'm like, that's the culmination of it. It really makes no sense to me that people have that opinion. I'm like, that's. That's what we're all that. That's where it ends up most of the time. Unless you're asexual, that's where it's going.

>> Speaker C: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree 100%. I am, like, I understand that there are times and places for certain things, especially like ya fiction that needs to be a closed door always.

>> Ruin Willow: Right.

>> Speaker C: But I think once you get into the more adult relationships, it's important. And I think also because sometimes we put such a taboo on sex in the bedroom, and this is kind of a way to open it up and like, no, like, this is what it looks like. And I love the way the different genres handle it, too. It's just, it's a. Because you really get to see the differences in the various kinks and the relationships and everything. And to me, it's beautiful. It's a very beautiful thing. That's. I've always been very, like, sex positive and open. I'm very blessed that, like, I joke that most people talk about the, christian upbringing pipeline, and how you start off very repressed in things and get. But no, like, I grew up the good little church girl, and yet I was always very self sex positive. And I think I'm very fortunate for that. I never saw it as a shameful thing. I still don't see it as a shameful thing. And I think that's part of why I like it in the romance books, because it's another. It's not always another form of love. Sometimes it's just the fun of it, which is also equally valid. But it's, you know, it's fun. It's a. It's a way to show love. It's. It's everything. It's not a. It's not a dirty thing at all. And I do think it's very important.

>> Ruin Willow: I, you know, and I always say that sexual health is a part of your mental health, and it does get ignored. And, like you're saying, you know, it's so, it's such a blessing that you grew up that way and weren't, weren't shamed by it, but so many people are. And I feel like erotica is one way that people can, like, heal through that and be like, oh, I can think about this. This is okay. And to me, whenever anybody reads it, it's a step closer to them being more okay with their own sexuality and sex in general. They're like, okay, this is. We're meant to have sex. It's okay to talk about it. And it's beautiful.

>> Speaker C: Like you said, it really is.

>> Ruin Willow: So, so. Oh, no, go ahead.

>> Speaker C: No, that, that's, that's where I was going to just agree. It is. It's a very beautiful thing.

>> Ruin Willow: It is.


You started writing erotic fan fiction early on

And I was just going to say, what ticked you into wanting to write about this? Did you write about other things, other genres before it? Do you still do that or you kind of focused more on erotic romance and that kind of stuff?

>> Speaker C: So the, I did early on write some fan fiction, and it was erotic fanfiction. Granted, I did not have a lot of experience with things in the real world yet, so, like, thank God. I think it got purged early on when Fanfiction.net had one of its purges. And I was never more grateful that that will never see the light intake because it was just, it was so. But I've always been, I don't know. I don't know how to write. That's the thing is, I don't really know how to write clip. Like, there's even in some of my work in progresses, there's some scenes where I'm like, okay, I don't have to go into it in that moment. I can, I can jump because we just had a scene like that. But it's kind of weird because it's, to me, it's the natural progression to go into things. I've always, I don't think I could write anything different. That's kind of the joke with, friendsgiving, with benefits is it wasn't supposed to be like, as straight erotica has hit. Just kind of happened because that's what the characters were.

>> Ruin Willow: I love it.

>> Speaker C: So, yeah, it's, I've always been kind of this, yeah.


Do you find yourself to be more of a pantser versus a plotter

>> Ruin Willow: So in saying that, does that mean you find yourself to be more of a pantser versus a plotter, or how do you fall in that array?

>> Speaker C: I am definitely more of a pantser. I have a couple work in progresses that are going to require more plotting, and they're going to take longer because I'm not used to that. I'm, I'm one of the kind of writers that the moment it's down on paper, it kind of feels like it's done. So I have to be very careful when I outline because if I over outline, to me, I've already written the story and now it's very tedious to go back and write the story. That's kind of to my detriment. So I've had to learn back and forth. Like some things, if they're bigger stories, do require a little bit of an outline. But mostly it's, I, it's panting. Especially because I'm one of those where I want the interactions to feel more natural.

>> Speaker C: And sometimes I think a story is going to go one way, but I'm like, well, with the characters personalities, like, in theory that would be great, but now that I have them actually talking, there's no way to do that without forcing one of them to do something they wouldn't normally do or react in a way they wouldn't normally react. And sometimes that becomes, oh, well, I don't want to change them. So now I need to change the scenario itself to like, do that. So it's like, oh, this scene can't happen. I have to do this scene instead. It's, it can be challenging sometimes.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah, I kind of, I understand what you're saying because I think I'm more of a pantser too. I mean, I have a little bit of an outline, but, you know, and then part of it is, like you said, once it's out there, it's already, like, happened to. And if you are following too much of a strict outline, I feel like, yeah, you're like forcing it. Right. And it's not natural to how the characters really are, so it really doesn't work. And I, Yeah, I'm not interested in forcing that kind of thing. It doesn't flow as well. I don't think it's as good of a story or as spontaneous or as for m me, the magic kind of disappears if I, if I try to do that.

>> Speaker C: Yes, that's one of those. It's, I see, I see everything. It's kind of like movies in my head.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes, that's exactly a sentence I was thinking. Yeah.

>> Speaker C: And when people talk about, oh, dear, characters talk to you, it's like, I don't mean that they're like necessarily talking to me. No. Like, no, I'm watching them talk to each other. So it's, I've seen people say, like, oh, well, you're the writer. You're in control. And I'm like, yes and no. Like, I'm in control of the type of person they are. But, like, the type of person they are is going to react a certain way. And when I'm playing it out, if that doesn't feel true to the person, you can't just say that their personality is XYZ, and then you have them do something completely different that's. That's going to be drawing for the reader. That's jarring for me as the writer, so I have to really kind of work within them.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, yeah.


I write on my phone more often than not because I'm easily distracted

So, what do you have any, like, routines when you write? Like, some people like to have a certain kind of drink or pretzels or snack or music or anything like that. Do you have any little quirks that.

>> Speaker C: You love to get distracted so easily? So a lot of times it needs to be quiet. There's. There's one or two stories I need music to write to, to put me in the mood, because they're not, like, contemporary. So I have to, like, kind of get into that headspace. But my routine is, I write on my phone more often than not.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, really?

>> Speaker C: I'm one of those when everybody bashes Google Docs, and I'm like, well, I kind of have to because I go between my laptop and my phone. So I have, very nice styluses for my phone, so I can type, because my fingers. I don't want a fat finger in my nails. Like, my beta readers can tell if I was typing with that. My stylist, like, I don't think they realize that's what's going on, but they'll go in and be like, there's a lot of, words that don't make sense, interesting things. And I'm like, yeah, I, didn't use my stylus and didn't clean it up for you first. I'm sorry. Let me go in. But m. Yeah. So my big writing routine is usually, like, if I can be somewhere quiet on my phone, I need quiet. Not always easy in my household, so sometimes I have to go elsewhere, but quiet.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. Oh, yeah. To me, I feel like I would need an awful lot of patience to that. Or do you. Are you pretty fast when you do it on your phone?

>> Speaker C: I'm faster on my phone for some reason, and part of it is because they do have the, text completion thing. I'm not a great speller, and I'm one of those that, again, easily distracted. So if I can't figure out how to spell a word and now I'm jumping onto google to spell the word, now I'm doing this, whereas when I'm on my phone, I can't have a bunch of windows open at once. So I can only look up something if I really need to. I have the autocomplete if I don't know how to spell a word. So I'm not like, oh, my God, what is that word? It really forces me to just focus on what's in front of me and the screen, which is surprisingly helpful.

>> Ruin Willow: That makes a lot of sense.


I really love age gap romance. But I know some people don't like age gap

Tell us a little bit about your book obedience and, what kind of themes people can find in it and what inspired you to write that book.

>> Speaker C: So, I love age gap romance. I really love age gap romance. I've always had, a thing about the older men. I kind of joke that, everybody gets their start on VC Andrews. And my favorite VC Andrews is actually like the second and third book of the Flowers in the attic series. And it's her scenes with the doctor. And it's like, looking back, I know how, like, even though he was super sweet, that's kind of toxic. But that, I think that was one of those that I'm like, that is awesome. He's the older man and all that. And so I love books like that. But I know some people don't like age gap. And I never really understood why until I talked to somebody and I. And they were talking about even, unless she's significantly older herself and he's just like, way older. It's always like, there's always a, a power position or something on top of it, which adds that layer of kind, of work for them. And I was like, well, obviously I'm not going to be able to appease everybody with age gap, but I want to try to write a story with age gap that might make people feel a little bit better. So, it's a college for romance. She's 21, he's 40.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay.

>> Speaker C: And he's her professor. But the big thing is, she's the one in charge of the relationship.

>> Ruin Willow: Ah, got ah it.

>> Speaker C: Yeah. And like, she's genuinely in charge. And it's actually, The story started as a serial on Bella. It's still ongoing on Vella, and volume one is the first, I want to say 24 episodes. I kind of dropped it off on one of the cliffy episodes. So, full disclosure, tell you what ends on a cliff. But it's. That's the idea is there, she's the one in charge. But it also means something to each of them. He came out of a breakup, and he's been kind of spiraling since then. So the book starts off where he's vacationing in another state. His friend dragged him away because he just did not handle the breakup well. People were getting worried. So his friends like, I'm going to take you away, where, one, you won't run into her. And then, you know. And his idea was, we're just going to find you somebody. But that's not the kind of character, Joshua, the male lead, is. He doesn't just jump into bed with people, typically. So on the last night, he finally decides maybe I should. And with a little bit of back and forth, his friend points out, our female lead, Cassie. And at first, he fights back on her because she's young. He's a college professor. His friends like, dude, I. We're in another state.

>> Ruin Willow: That's not your student, right?

>> Speaker C: Spoiler alerts, it is, but, But it's. Yeah, so they kind of. They hook up. But it. Even from the start, it's not your typical hookup. She takes charge from the beginning. It's one of those where she's. The more you get to know her, her life is very much not in her control at all. M so, m. Being able to assert herself gives her, like, that grounding that she needs, like, everywhere else, it's out of control. But this is the one space she has where she's in charge. And in return, when he's with her, her taking charge, he doesn't have to think like, he doesn't. He's not worried like he was after the breakup of what if I screw up again? Whatever. Because she's telling him exactly what to do. And he's like, this actually works because it's weird. It's not what I'm used to, but I don't have to think. I don't have to worry about disappointing her because she's telling me exactly what she wants. so that's kind of where I went with it. One of the other things I tried to do, though, is because neither one of them are used to the bdsm scene, so it's very much two people that have no idea what they're doing, stumbling through it and learning together, because I also think that that's. Again, usually when I read these stories, somebody's the, expert. And I was like, well, what if somebody wasn't the expert? What if you just have two amateurs that they don't even realize what they've stumbled into and they're, they're trying to figure out what communication's like. Because she's 21, she's dated, but it's not like she's dated to the extent that he has. So learning about the communication, the spaces they are in life, and, overcoming hurdles, like putting those kind of labels on things.

>> Ruin Willow: So very intriguing. Now, do they actually fall into one of them being a dominant and the other being submissive or does it not go that far?

>> Speaker C: Oh, it definitely. Like she, repeatedly calls him good boy and tells him to drop to his knees a lot. And, he very much likes the praise. That was the thing where instead of good girl, it's good boy, there's a lot of good boys and very much it makes him happy. And he actually finds himself centered when he's on his knees. Like, not even necessarily servicing her. She takes notice. He gets calmer when he's on his knees. So when m they're in positions where they can, she'll tell him, like, on your knees. If it looks like he's starting to panic and he drops to his knees and just kind of like hugs her for a bit and calms himself.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, very interesting. Yeah, there's a, there's a huge following of men that like this type of storyline, and I run into it all the time. I'm, you know, I m interview a lot of authors and it is interesting that there are a large number of men who, who find this very sexy and intriguing. And so that's fantastic.


Do you find you have more female readers or male readers

Now, do you find you have more female readers or male readers or is there a mix or. No idea.

>> Speaker C: I think I have more, female or femme presenting readers. I'm not entirely sure who all my readers are. I do know, I do know because of, some of them that do talk to me. I do have a couple of male readers, but I don't know how many exactly. I do think, on my socials, a college professor started liking and commenting on a lot of his stuff and that threw me off for him because I was like, oh, he seemed into it and not insulted by it, so I was like, I'll take that as a win.

>> Ruin Willow: Absolutely. Yeah. Don't you wish we could find that out? Like, I, sometimes I think, I wish I would like that Amazon would create that or the booksellers would create that, where we can, like, actually get some like, data of who is more information about who's reading our books, our audience, you know, like wouldn't that be so valuable?

>> Speaker C: That would, because that would really help me to know who to market to, especially because I just. It's that whole. You tend to assume m when you write romance that your audience is going to be female. So you market to female, but you don't actually know that. And, you know, what is my male audience into? So I know how to find more like them.

>> Ruin Willow: Maybe we need to, like, request that of Amazon because I know it's possible because I also do audiobooks. And so I do it through. One of the places I do it through is find a way, voices. And they've created this, like, weekly report that gives you information about the age group, the, sex, the gender, you know, whatever you want to say of the people who are buying my audiobooks. And it's just invaluable. And I'm often surprised how many men there are, you know, so men do. Because I often talk to other people, too, and they think only women are reading romance or erotica. It's not true. It's really not true. There are men interested in it.

>> Speaker C: And I think men reading books like this is pretty valuable because it gives you insight into what the woman is thinking or how the woman perceives a relationship. Like, this should go, or should go in the bedroom. And yes, it can gap, bridge a lot of gaps because we have, like, generations of misunderstandings of how things are supposed to work in and out of the bedroom, because not everybody feels comfortable having these conversations. But if you were to read, you know, something from somebody's point of view, like, that can kind of help.

>> Ruin Willow: I, 100% agree. And this is. This is what I know some people say, too. Like, I'll say to men, if you really want to know what makes a woman tick or what they think is sexy, read romance written by women. I mean, duh. that's, like, brilliant. And it's so spot on.

>> Speaker C: And it also, to me, I think, in a way, like, obviously it is fiction and fantasy, but there's a lot of things that you can take away that are completely possible. Like, I know a lot of times we say, like, the problem with porn is that, it sets unrealistic expectations. And people try to say the same thing about romance books. But I'm like, well, if you apply the same thing, like, well, yes, certain positions might not be possible for the amateur. Yes, you need to work your way up to certain things and use plenty of lube. m but as long as you, like, take the same, mindset of, okay, like, being able to separate this. This is the part where, okay, that's the fantasy. Like, the. No smells and no, not everybody writes cleanup afterwards or whatever, but you go past that. Like, what it's. What are they focusing on? What are they focusing on? Where are they touching? Like, how are they explaining how she gets off? How are they explaining how he gets off? What, you know, how's he treating her during it? Like, a lot of that you can find.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. I think people should maybe approach both erotica, erotic romance, and porn the same way it is. Entertainment is not education, but that doesn't mean you can't learn things from it. It can give you ideas of things to try, even be, you know, introducing kinks. You know, I always say, if you're interested in a kink and you don't want to, like, look at your partner and be like, hey, you want to tie me up? You could find a book. Be like, hey, let's read this together. And then you could talk about it. M. Well, what did you think of that? You know? And then you could, sneak in there. Do you think you'd ever want to try that? You know, like, it's a way to also a tool for people in their.

>> Speaker C: Relationships, especially because it's. It's not always the woman that's uncomfortable with the relationships.

>> Ruin Willow: Right.

>> Speaker C: because, as I said, I'm a very. I really am a very sex positive person. And I've run into, like, very early on, once I was active, which is funny, because I wasn't active active as early as everybody would probably thought I was. I was very much an adult. But once I was, it wasn't long before I learned the importance of communicating, because I enjoyed myself more when I communicated. I want to say, like, my second or third partner ever actually was the one that took notice that, like, no, no, it's okay if you talk. And then from there on, like, I was a lot more on. This is good. This sucks. I mean, you want to be comfortable with your partner, but sometimes it's the guy that's not the one comfortable talking. And maybe because the girl's more experienced and he's not, and now he feels some sort of way, and he's afraid to be like, well, I don't want to try that because I don't want to admit. I don't know what it is. I've actually had partners like that, that because they were less experienced than me, but didn't want to admit it at first when I'm like, let's try this. And they're like, no, I don't like that. And it's not that they didn't like it. They'd never done it. They didn't want to admit they never did it. For some reason, they just weren't comfortable, I guess, talking about it yet, either with me or because of toxic masculinity and how they felt they needed to present themselves. And, like, it's. I, feel like women should not feel so bad at times when they do get, like, nervous about these things because the guy might just be as.


Reading a book together can be a great conversation starter

Just as nervous as you are and, yeah, reading a book together or things like that definitely helped bridge that conversation, because then you can have that. What do you think when you read it? Like, was it cool? Was it not cool? Why wasn't it cool for you? Definitely.

>> Ruin Willow: Is it? Definitely. It's a conversation starter, and then it can bleed into your own bedroom and your own relationship. I mean, that's just. I just think that's really cool. And I also think it's great, foreplay, too, especially when you get to the sex scenes. You know what I mean? Like, then it might just get you both turned on and something fun will happen.


Do you have a favorite and worst part of the writing process

So what's your favorite part of the writing process? Do you know some people, I've even had people, like the editing, and I'm like, oh, that's, like, the worst part for me. Do you have a favorite and worst part of the writing process?

>> Speaker C: I think for me, it is the editing because going back and reading stuff is the worst part for me, rather. Yeah, I'm with the editing is the worst part because I get really uncomfortable sometimes going back and reading my stuff, because if I. It's that constant, it's the artist's brain where nothing will ever be polished enough.

>> Ruin Willow: Right, right.

>> Speaker C: And I. Even if people have similar voices to me, I can't read their books either, because I go, like, for some reason, it puts me into editing mode. And then I'm like, this is not. This is not my book to like. So I had. So there's. There's certain books I just. I can't read, and they're good books. It's just, I can't turn my stupid brain off, you know? For me, my favorite part is the actual initial, writing. Because a lot of times when I'm, like, close my eyes and start visualizing it, that's the fun part for me when I'm visualizing it before I put it down, because then I get to watch it.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes.

>> Speaker C: M because that's what happens is I watch it before I write it and I kind of decide what looks the best in my mind before I start writing it down. especially the conversation sometimes they'll have, my characters will have amongst each other and then trying to get that down. That's a lot of fun.

>> Ruin Willow: Now do you see the entire thing or do you see it in chunks?

>> Speaker C: I see it in chunks. And it's like, whatever that moment is. And it's really weird because some of it will be, I will see it very, very vividly and then it'll switch to like, weird lashes and it's more sound or feeling oriented. So, like, when it, whenever it gets especially spicy, scenes become, are cut like a very tasteful movie, almost. Sure. And then it focuses more on the, sensations they're feeling because it's almost like at that point, my brain's on a little overload. And they're like, no, no, what's important right now is like, how turned on they are. So we're going to focus on that. And I'm like, okay. But then, like most everything else, I can tell you who's in the room and how they're standing and what they're talking. It gets a little annoying trying to write it down because then you don't know how much detail to put in. Or I might see something and I don't know what the word for that is. So then it's a very simplistic, like, descriptions until I can figure out what's supposed to go there or what's actually important.

>> Ruin Willow: So, yeah, I kind of have a very similar process to you. And sometimes though, I find I'll get a movie clip or whatever you want to call it, of something way in the future. And it's not chronological. Does that happen to you too?

>> Speaker C: Yes. And then I have to, like, put a pin on it to like, remember, because again, if I'm afraid if I write it down.

>> Speaker C: I won't, I won't get to that part anymore. I won't want to do it anymore because it's been done. So I have to just put a pin in it until I get to that part. I hope to God I don't forget it.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, exactly.


I actually started writing again because of audiobooks

So how long have you been writing? Is this something you've done your entire life, or is it something you came into at some point midway or so?

>> Speaker C: It's funny because I've been writing for pleasure since like, middle school, I think. I used to write a lot in middle school. I put on the, ambient rainstorms because growing up in Florida, rainstorms were like such a good way to think. So if it wasn't raining, I needed to put on the rainstorm cd so I could like, think, and then like, became an adult. Wrote a little fan fiction. And it wasn't until, I moved back out here, to the Seattle area, that I really started writing. And it was, it's, it's so strange. I, I actually started writing again because of audiobooks. Oh, I, one of my friends, m narrated a few audiobooks.

>> Speaker C: And, actually, the dungeon master for my tnd games I used to play, she, narrated some audiobooks and I listened to them. And it was funny because in our d and d games, she always kind of cut us short before we got too crazy with things. Yeah. I'm listening to these audiobooks where she is very much like, or spicy audiobooks and I'm like, my bestie here is talking very dirty to m me right now.

>> Ruin Willow: Love it, love it, love it.

>> Speaker C: My husband was in the room the first time I saw it and he looked at my face and he's like, You're in a dirty part, aren't you? And I'm like, he's like, how awkward is it for you right now? Because I had like, earphones on and I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna. I think I need a breather. It's very weird to hear these words coming from her mouth.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, I understand that. Yeah.

>> Speaker C: And so then that progressed to, I wanted more audiobooks, but she'd only narrated so many. so she would start finding me audiobooks. And then I came back with a very, very specific request of a book. And she's like, that doesn't exist. I think you need to write it.

>> Speaker C: And I'm like, I guess because now it's in my head.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker C: And it's one of my work in progresses that I keep putting up and putting down and I've like restarted it like three or four times. Because I get to a point where I'm like, I don't like where this is going. This isn't how it's supposed to go.

>> Ruin Willow: This one is not live yet. The one you're talking about is not live.

>> Speaker C: It will be. Eventually it will be. There's some people that are very, that have seen it, but also it started third person point of view. But the more I started reading romances in first person, the more I was like, I write better in first person. So then I have I had a couple other, like, work in progresses that I started that I got to a point where I'm like, these are becoming too involved and it's just hurting my head. And then I started obedience, and then I put it on Bella because I had friends that were writing on kindle, vella. And, I just, I started doing that and that. And that was, two years ago. This past July was when obedience first published to Vella. So I've been published for like two years, but I was writing for like a good year and a half, two years before that, I think.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay.

>> Speaker C: Yeah.

>> Ruin Willow: Now, how does Vella work? I keep seeing that pop up, but I don't really understand how it works and what it's about.

>> Speaker C: So it's a pay by chapter, platform. It's Amazon's, answer to those pay by chapter platforms. Okay. The dream app or, the cheesy stuff on the Facebook ads where you're like, that sounds insane. Or wattpad, although wattpad doesn't charge you. Inkit doesn't charge you. I actually have one of my work in progresses on inkit for people to read for free kind the thing. but this one unlocks. But it's Amazon. It's us only, unfortunately. So I do have a patreon where my international audience, if they want to read it, can probably read for cheaper on Patreon. Okay. but yeah, so it's, it's a pay by chapter and the first chapters of each cereal are free. The first ten. So you get to read ten episodes.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay.

>> Speaker C: I really like writing serials because it feels some people will go and they'll put like write their books and put them up there before they publish them to kind of just get it out there. A little feedback. I write them is like the, the crazy serials, almost like you would see in, what pad and whatnot, where I like having, it took a while to find my groove, but I really like the ending. The episodes kind of always on a semi cliff, making it kind of a, soap opera feel at times.

>> Speaker C: So, because I have three cereals up there right now and they're all pretty spicy. but I think one and the other two are spin offs of obedience. But, I definitely feel like there are bits where if I'm not in a spicy, I'm trying to be very dramatic, just outlandish with things because it's fun like that and it makes it interesting now.


You generally write in heterosexual situations, but sometimes you do a mix

>> Ruin Willow: So I have two questions for you. First one is you generally write in heterosexual situations. or do you do a mix? You do a mix, right?

>> Speaker C: I do a mix. A lot of my work in progresses, are more where you're going to see that. and then it's kind of funny because with friendsgiving, with the benefits by novella, it is a male female relationship, but it's a queer relationship. They're both bi.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay, got it.

>> Speaker C: And so, and they're both very, it was one of those where when I wrote it, I tried to not make it like a super, let's have a conversation that we're by. It's just they're talking about guys that he finds attractive and, you know, he's into them. he mentions that she flirts with everybody at most. Like, I think there's a bit where she has acknowledges, like she went through a period where she was trying to figure herself out and one of her friends never really pressed her to like explain herself and put a label on it and she always appreciated that. but yeah, so it's, I do a mix. Like, most of the pairings you'll see for my stuff that's currently published is going to be male female.

>> Speaker C: I do have things that will be, that are in the works that are other. but like I say, even the ones that are male female aren't necessarily hetero.

>> Ruin Willow: Sure.

>> Speaker C: Got it.

>> Ruin Willow: And then I'm trying to remember my other question. Oh, I know what it was. So if you do that on Amazon, you do a whole bunch of chapters on Vella. Can you take all those chapters and then publish it as a book as well? Or do they prefer that you just only keep it in Vella?

>> Speaker C: So obedience, volume one. That's why I'm able to do it, because they don't mind.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay, got it.

>> Speaker C: The big thing with Vella is you can actually put it anywhere as long as it's behind a pay gate. So I could actually put it on other pay by chapter, sites. I just. That's a lot more work than I have right now to set up those accounts and do those things. Whereas Patreon is pretty simple. But I do have to pull the episodes off Patreon when I put out the books because I put them in Kindle Unlimited.

>> Ruin Willow: That's what I was going to ask you. The unlimited part.

>> Speaker C: Yeah.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay.

>> Speaker C: Yeah. If I didn't put them in Kindle Unlimited, I could have left them up on Patreon, but.

>> Speaker C: I'm still, I recognize I'm still very new to the romance community. Not everybody knows me so kindle unlimited does make it more accessible to a lot of people.

>> Ruin Willow: Yes.

>> Speaker C: So I chose to do that. I can always put them, if I were to ever pull the books out of Kindle Unlimited, it's not like I couldn't put them back up on Patreon.

>> Ruin Willow: Right.

>> Speaker C: But when I put them a book form, they also go through a professional editor. I don't do that. When I put them up in serial form, I do have software. It goes through and I have my beta readers kind of give it a touch up.

>> Ruin Willow: Sure.

>> Speaker C: But because of what it is, and you don't pay as much. I mean, in the long run, you probably pay more because you're unlocking per episode. But at the time, like, the episodes, you know, don't cost a lot. So, you just kind of, that's the downside with the, with the paper chapters. A lot of, like, most of them don't go through crazy professional editing that because nobody sees that as the point of those platforms.

>> Ruin Willow: Sure, sure.

>> Speaker C: So when I go to put it out in book form, it's, no, an editor's now taken it and gone over it and helped clean it up a bit so it's not messy.

>> Ruin Willow: Got it. That makes sense.


Bella: Kindle Unlimited is different from Vella in many ways

And now do you get to pick the amount you're, that each chapter sells for or is that set?

>> Speaker C: So it's funny. It's set and it used to be set based on, length. So every, like, they have a limit. It has to be like no less than 500 words for a chapter on Vella and no more than 5000.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay. Okay.

>> Speaker C: Which sounds like a lot. But like early on when, I didn't know what I was doing, there were a lot of episodes I needed to cut in half because I was like, oh, that's too long.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker C: And they, they should have been cut in half anyways. and at that point in time, it was like every hundred, words was a token. So, like the story would be five to 50 tokens. But when they were doing that, you could also only read like the first three episodes for free. Then, I can't remember. It was late last year or earlier this year, they revamped everything. And, now all episodes, regardless of length, are only ten tokens.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay.

>> Speaker C: Which to me is nice because now a reader can go in and see how many episodes something is and kind of do the math themselves.

>> Ruin Willow: Sure.

>> Speaker C: and now you can read up to ten episodes for free, which again, I like because I feel like you get a feel for the story more at that point. If you're not hooked after the ten episodes enough to pay for it, then it's obviously not your cup of tea and that's fine, right? I know some people in the community were upset about it, but I'm like, I think all the changes are great, especially because if you're into a story and you see how many episodes it is, but some of the episodes might not be the same length, so you have no idea how much you're going to spend at the end of the day to read through it. Whereas now you can be like, okay, this is what's out. This times ten is this. And then I can go and see how much tokens are and go from there.

>> Ruin Willow: I don't think people should get upset about it because you're trying to find your readers and if they don't jive with what you're writing, they're not your readers. Your goal as a writer is to find your readers, right? So yeah, yeah. You shouldn't be upset by that because then you're not, you want to find your readers. You don't want to find non readers that are not liking your books, you're not liking your writing. You know, you want to find people who do like it. So. Yeah, I'm trying to. Oh, no, go ahead.

>> Speaker C: Well, I was saying, I think three episodes is not enough to really feel if you drive with the story or not. And it's like, yeah, maybe you got a few tokens out of them, but like the author's cut of those tokens isn't a lot. So to me it's like, unless, it's not worth finding. I don't want to find somebody that's going to get like five episodes in and be like, I don't want this. I want somebody that's going to be invested in it in the long term.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. I'm struggling to figure out what the big difference is between Vella and Kindle Unlimited. I mean, I guess it's because that's just short chunks. I guess that's the difference. Right? Because, you know, Kindle unlimited, someone can come in and read any amount that they want, but that's more partitioned. I guess maybe that's the difference.

>> Speaker C: Well, in Kindle Unlimited, because it's a, it's a paid library, so you're paying the monthly subscription up front where Vella, technically you could go through and read a bunch of stories and only read the first ten episodes of each.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. Okay.

>> Speaker C: So, and it's, and you do have to purchase the tokens. So it's you go through, you purchase the tokens and chunks that obviously, the more money you spend on tokens, the less it is for penny for token kind of thing.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay. that makes sense. So it's just a different way to, like, sample, you know, whether you want to do a subscription and do kindle Unlimited or do you want to pay as you go and just read here and there and decide if you like it. Okay. That's a good way to describe it for people, too, because how do people find Bella? Like, I don't even know how people find that on Amazon.

>> Speaker C: So it's actually, they keep talking about how much they want it to be big and how much they want the authors that write for Vella, because not every story ends up as a book. And obviously, like, you know, some of them are just up there to be up there. but it's, if you look like, in the Kindle app, there is a way to find it. They just hide it like crazy. And I've never understood why, when they talk about wanting to push it, maybe because it is us only. They don't want to put it somewhere where it would be obvious that it's missing in the other markets.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. Okay.

>> Speaker C: But if you, if you google Kindle, vella, it will pop up.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay, well, that's a good tip to give people because. Yeah, I don't feel like I, when I go into, I don't feel like it's like, in front of my face, like, oh, vella. Okay, there it is.

>> Speaker C: You know, like, it's, oh, it's not, it's woefully hidden.

>> Ruin Willow: That's annoying. But maybe they'll fix it. Hopefully. Eventually.

>> Speaker C: Hopefully.


Do you find you ever have to do much research for your writing

>> Ruin Willow: Do you find you ever have to do much research for your writing? Or is it more stuff you just kind of know and feel and that kind of thing?

>> Speaker C: It depends on the story. like, one of my work in progress is, I definitely have to do a lot of research because one of the characters, he's absolutely obsessed with sharks and surfing, and I don't know anything really about those. M so that involves a lot of research. like friendsgiving with benefits. Not really a lot, because a lot of that, draws from my own experiences and relationships and whatnot. but even obedience. Every so often, I'll need to kind of research little things here and there just to make sure I'm getting it right. But I usually try to stick to things I know when I can just because I'm like, I don't know. I'm always worried with research, because it's not my expertise. Like, what if I research it wrong and still get it wrong and somebody's going to see that and be like, nope, nope, that's not how that is. The book is now ruined for me.

>> Ruin Willow: M. Yeah, yeah, I get that.


What was an early experience where you learned that language had power

I like to ask this question, of all people who like to write, and I get so many different answers. It's so interesting. What was an early experience where you learned that language had power? Can you think of something? It can be at any point in your life or. I, I say early because a lot of people have this answer coming from their youth in some way.

>> Speaker C: It's funny because I don't think I really realized how much until I had a child of my own. M as weird as this sounds, because, my child went through a period where, they would reassign meanings towards, okay, which was a weird concept to me. And that's where I was having to constantly have that. I was like, words have meanings for a reason. There's a power behind. Like, when you say this, it doesn't matter what you think it means, right? If you say that, it's going to come across as, something very different to somebody else. And I think that's when I really realized that, like, oh my God, like when we say things, it really matters and that it can change things.

>> Speaker C: I don't know that that's probably a little weird way to explain it, but.

>> Ruin Willow: No, I think that's a great way to explain and it's true. And I can see a child maybe playing with that, but not realizing that it's the other person they're talking to. Their perspective is already set because words already have meanings.

>> Speaker C: Yeah.

>> Ruin Willow: Very interesting.


Do you tend to share your work with people in your life

So do you tend to share your work with people in your life or is it something you don't normally tell people who are in your life?

>> Speaker C: I, have shared. Well, it's, I share now because it's already out there. but like, I started out sharing with my mom and not like, actively sharing because she doesn't read romance at all. Like, and she was always very upfront with, it's not that I don't want to read your work, it's that I don't read romance. Like her mom would read the, Fabio on the COVID Romances.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, yeah. Yep. The harlequin.

>> Speaker C: And it's not like my mom isn't aware of the stuff I've read over the years. even when I was reading, like, flowers in the attic when I was younger. Like, she knew because she's like, oh, that's with the brother and sister. And I'm like, and you're not taking the book from me. And it's like, what's the point buying books I tell you not to and reading them anyways? I'll just let you figure that one out. Like, like, okay. but yeah, because my pen name is. Has some significance, with her when I wanted to ask permission first, and she's like, yeah, no, that's fine. But then she's like, but I'm like, nothing against you. You know, I tend to read more historical, books and biographies and stuff. And like, I know she does read fiction, but I don't remember what kind. But she's like, so, like, please don't take offense that I will probably never read it. And I'm like, that's fine. I wasn't asking you to read it. I kind of read if you don't. And then I get a group text from my siblings that are like, so we hear you're writing a book and it's, it's about, like, you know, this stuff. And I'm like, what? And they're like, m told us. It's like, I don't mind you guys knowing, but, like, I kind of wish I had been the one to tell you.

>> Ruin Willow: Right.

>> Speaker C: one of my cousins is actually, apparently, a fan of mine.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh.

>> Speaker C: Buys my signed books and grabs the books. And it was one of those where it kind of freaked me out at first, but I love this cousin, so I'm chill about it. But yeah, like, like when, yeah, because when one of my books came out and I told my mom, like, hey, if you have any, I know you don't read romance and you definitely don't read this kind of stuff, but if you know anybody that might be interested. Yeah, I thought she was going to tell her friends. No, there's a family group chat I'm not part of with, some cousins and stuff. And she plugged the book in there.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, got it.

>> Speaker C: Yeah. And then, like, on my husband's side of the family, I'm just waiting for, like, my mother in law to find the books because social media keeps, sharing my profiles because when you log in on your phone, so they keep sharing it with, like, my sister in law and she's chill and she knows now, but, like, I'm just like, man, I don't want, like, if I'm being outed for what I write, it should be on my terms, right? Oh, social media or my mother just kind of throws it out there. And then I also think it's sweet that my mom's, like, so proud of me, even though she's, like, she's not into that. Like, I don't want to know about it. I don't. Whatever. Well, let me share with, like, all the family. And I was just like, oh, my God. Okay.

>> Ruin Willow: Okay. It's nice to have that support even if she's not reading it. And, yeah, like you said, maybe you don't even want her to read it, but it's nice that she, you know, has that support for you and, and, you know, wants to praise you for it and be like, hey, look it, she wrote this book, you know, like, that's cool. Yeah. It's hard, though, because so many people have such strong opinions about, you know, sex in stories, so.

>> Speaker C: Yeah. And that's my worry. Especially because I am a mom, like, As sex positive as I am. I also, at the same time, don't want it to negatively impact, like, my, my family because somebody's being judgmental and they don't think, you know, that's cool. whereas most of my friends, like, when they find out, are actually really cool. And, I've had to have a talk with one because they do the same thing my mom does where it's like, let's just throw it out there. I'm like, let's see how cool people are first before we throw it out there. Because then they're going to ask, just because you say I write a book, they're going to, what kind? What do you write? Romance.

>> Speaker C: And then hope they drop it there because again, even whenever I've told people spicy that actually my hairstylist wanted to put my, first novella up on her station to help advertise me.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker C: And I was like, I don't know if it's appropriate for that, but I'm more than happy to give you a copy. You know, just, that would be great. If you do, just please read it first. She absolutely loves it. She's like, but I understand now. I don't think I can put that up there. I was like, that's what I thought. That's, that's, that's fine. I don't want you to get in trouble at the salon here at.

>> Ruin Willow: No, she can maybe promote it other ways.

>> Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Like, if you know your client's cool, tell them about it then.

>> Ruin Willow: right, exactly.


What do you define as success as an author? I have no idea

So what do you define as success as an author? And writer, what is that to you?

>> Speaker C: I have no idea. That's actually something I know. I've been grappling with it a lot, especially since I've started publishing. My husband's also an artist. more traditional sense.

>> Speaker C: It's funny because a lot of the things that when he grapples with his work and success and whatnot, and I'm always just like, well, duh. and my reaction with him is always, well, you're talented. Why are you surprised that you're doing well when things happen? And so now that I'm going through all the range of emotions, he's throwing it right back at me.

>> Ruin Willow: Ah, yeah, yeah.

>> Speaker C: Like every time I hit publish on a book, I actually, like, have a mini panic attack. And, things go well. I'm like, this doesn't feel right. And he's like, he's like, this is what success is. And I'm proud of you. And I'm like, success is terrifying, if that's what it is. So, yeah, I don't know because I don't want to say it's monetary because.

>> Speaker C: I don't think that's right. Especially when it comes to art. I think with being an author, it's weird because we see so many different people that are successful in so many different ways. Some people, they have the social media following. Some people, you might not really know who they are, but they have a steady income and are able to be an author full time. Right. and I just. And some people, you know, it's, their book is on a bookshelf and I have no idea because also, I don't. I just, I don't know. I kind of think I'll figure it out once whatever it is happens. That makes me think, like, okay, here we are.

>> Ruin Willow: Sure.

>> Speaker C: But yeah, it's a genuine struggle for me to try to define it because I don't know, like, what necessarily my goal is even to, like, at this point, I'm just, I'm writing because it's an outlet putting it out there, and I'm hoping people enjoy it. I'm telling myself that people enjoy it. That's success. And I'm hoping that's enough.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah. And I just, I love the fact that, we're living in a time where we can do this, you know, like never before in history has this been possible where people can be a storyteller and publish it, disseminate it to large groups. It just hasn't happened, you know? And so I think it's really great. And the other thing I think is great is too that when you have someone who is self publishing or whatever, they're telling stories that the big publishers are afraid to tell.

>> Speaker C: Yes.

>> Ruin Willow: So we're getting more voices. We're getting more stories that wouldn't exist. I, mean, what an exciting time we're living in that we can do this. It's phenomenal.

>> Speaker C: So I joke with people. I don't read trad publishing much anymore. And it's one of those, it's nothing against trad published authors. It's just the type of content I read is rarely touched by a traditional publisher. So, like, the number of traditionally published books I read has dwindled down. And I feel kind of bad because again, it's not like it's the, I'm not actively avoiding the trad authors. It's just the stuff I read is not, Touched by big five for whatever reason.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. And I think what's interesting is that the more and more this is growing, we're finding out that it's what people want. People want these other voices. They don't want this, you know, cookie cutter box books that the traditional publishers are putting out. And I think that's going to keep happening. More and more people are going to be buying the indie publishers and self published books because they want that too. I'm the same way. I can't even tell you the last time I bought one from one of the big publishers. I have no interest in it either. It's not my thing.

>> Speaker C: Yeah. And I think a lot of like, I know a few authors I like get picked up later on.

>> Ruin Willow: Mm

>> Speaker C: And at that point, I don't even know if I really consider, if I keep reading them, if that's tried published. Because when I started with them, indie and I read their stories when they were indie, so.

>> Speaker C: You know, it's, I get excited when I see people get those deals because.

>> Speaker C: I'm hoping it's more security for them. Yes. But yeah, it's just, it's the, I don't know, I never, to me, trad published, erotica is the Harlequin blaze in silhouette desire books, which, if you have nothing else, hits that fix. But I feel like they are so cookie cutter.

>> Ruin Willow: Yeah.

>> Speaker C: To the max. And like, back when I used to read them, like two decades ago, there was a lot of like internalized misogyny and stuff in them too. It felt like, yeah.

>> Speaker C: So it's just to me, that's unfortunately, that's what I unfortunately associate with like Trad because that's what I was exposed to with Trad.

>> Ruin Willow: Right. Yeah. I think it's great when someone gets picked up, but you're right, they start, they didn't start out that way. And yeah, it's great for them to have that security and maybe, maybe they'll sell more books. So that's great. So that I like to see that kind of thing happen too. I'm not going to like, you know, bad mouth them, but it is, it is something to me too. I just tend to like more stuff that's not put through that kind of filter, you know?


It does tend to stifle creativity, I think a little

Yeah.

>> Speaker C: You get that person that comes in and says, well, the market wants this and it's like, no, I want their story. Like the only input should be from like beta readers or such, you know, to make, you know, it shouldn't be through a corporate lens. And that's m and I get, it's the issue with capitalism, I get they need to give me money back.

>> Speaker C: But when you do that, it does tend to stifle creativity, I think a little because you get to be, you won't take the risk half the time in you're trying to stifle somebody's voice.

>> Ruin Willow: Oh, yeah, for sure.


Is there any advice you have for someone considering doing what you're doing

Is there any advice you have for someone who is considering doing what you're doing?

>> Speaker C: It's funny because everybody says just right. And that is because it took me a bit to get to the story that ended up being my first out there. but you have to write to get started also. but no, my bigger advice is patience. M because I'm a very instant gratification person. Impatience is the key. And I think that's why velo really helped me because I could put something out there and see results quicker because I'm doing it one episode at a time. So I do see a little bit of monetary compensation. I do see vella, you could because it's one, like the other apps, you can comment and like and whatnot. So I'm getting some feedback. So I get that instant gratification to kind of push me forward. But the bigger, the bigger picture takes time. Like, it's been two years since I first published obedience as a vella. And this year on its two year anniversary is when I put the volume one book out to kind of celebrate. And, you know, I'm finally starting to see what looks like some traction in my writing career. But it takes and every, and it's, I knew that going every set, it takes time. You have to have more than one book out. Like, rarely does anybody on book one. And I've seen with my author friends, book one or book two, completely ignored. And then some random book blew up for them. and some of them, it's not even that, like, one book blew up for them. They just, they now have enough books that everything's kind of like, they get steady readership. But that takes time. And I think that's the biggest thing is if you can't, even if you just write, you can't go into it thinking it's going to be instant success. Like, the amount of luck and money you have to have to be an instant success is more than the average person takes. But that doesn't mean you can't get there. You just have to have the, grace with yourself that everything will be fine if it doesn't happen right away and the patience to see it through.

>> Ruin Willow: And like you said, every path is different. Every writer and every author's path is going to be different.

>> Speaker C: And I think sometimes people, whenever they see, like, oh, well, that author's book blew up, like, seeing behind the curtains on that sometimes. And some of those authors, like, that's not the book they wanted to blow up. Like, right. Like, not that they're not happy, but there's like, a book that they absolutely love that even after becoming popular, people aren't giving at the time of day. And I don't think people realize, like, just because, like, and that's where I go back to not quite sure what success is, because having a successful book doesn't always mean that, like, you're fulfilled on the inside, you might be happy, but now that might, like, make you feel like you're stuck in path that you didn't necessarily want right away, and you're trying to find your way back to it. And it's just, it's always interesting.

>> Ruin Willow: It is. And then some of these writers have been writing for literally years before a book blows up. So they may have been writing for ten years before something became super popular. So everybody's path is really different. Yeah.


Where everybody can find all of your work is on your website

was there anything we haven't talked about yet that you wanted to say or mention? And also where everybody can find all of your work?

>> Speaker C: So right now, I am pretty much Amazon, exclusive, aside from cereals that are on Patreon.

>> Ruin Willow: Hm.

>> Speaker C: for those that are outside of the US, just because I still consider myself a bit of a baby author, so. And Amazon tends to be the friendliest to baby authors if you don't have a lot of money, to throw at it right away.

>> Speaker C: Which is nice, but I lizziebbrown.com at
http://www.lizziebbrown.com/ is the best place to figure out where everything is. my website, just because I have everything listed, I have content warnings on there for everything I do have. The three serials are obedience. It's got like 60 some odd episodes at this point. So if you pick up the book and decide you don't want to wait, you can read it on Kindle Vella or subscribe to my Patreon. Again, links are on my website. And then I have the two spin off series, the bucket list, which is about Eddie and Carla. Eddie actually has his own POV and obedience volume one and m then I just decided to give them their own little story that is a friends to lovers with a sex bucket list because she is not as experienced as him and decides kind of that that's going to be her way to make a move on her best friend. The other one is Janet's story, which is, the ex of Joshua and how she's moving on in her life. It's an age gap where one of the guys is younger than her and one of the guys is older than her. So m that's fun. And then my books are obedience volume one, which is available on Amazon and Kindle Unlimited. Volume two will be out next year, hopefully sooner than later. As I said, it's already on Vella. It's already written. I just need to take the time to talk to my editor to find out when they have availability to go through it. Sure. And then friendsgiving with benefits is actually a prequel of sorts to obedience. It's some side characters from obedience and the bucket list serials. I gave them a novella for like that starts a year prior in Thanksgiving, and it's just them, getting it on and ignoring their guests during their Thanksgiving festivities. And if all goes well, it will have its own little sequel this Christmas, so keep an eye out for that. Yeah, very cool.


Well, everyone, all the links will be down in the podcast show notes

>> Ruin Willow: Well, everyone, all the links will be down in the podcast show notes. And I want to thank you so much for being here. This was a really fun chat. I really enjoyed getting to know you and finding more out about your books and your journey, and it's so fun, right? We're having a blast.

>> Speaker C: That's fun. I love this.

>> Ruin Willow: Well, I definitely can have you back again in the future. I always tell people I'd love to have them back. I've had guests, come back two, three times, I think three is my top so far, so, yeah, so definitely would be fun. But good luck to you, and I hope that things continue to, grow for you. And have a great day.

>> Speaker C: You, too. Thank you.

>> Ruin Willow: All right. You take care. Bye.

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