Keith Marnoch: 0:06

On this episode of Speaking of Media, we look at how words matter on a global stage, specifically how the Donald Trump administration is reshaping the way it communicates to Americans and, by extension, how it's beginning to form a new world order. My guest is veteran journalist Leanne Goodman, whose journalistic career has included time at the White House as a correspondent for the Canadian press. Our conversation is going to look at the different ways that the current administration in Washington compares to past presidencies and how it's affecting really all of us. So, leanne, she's a lifelong journalist who has found a home reporting and telling stories through various platforms throughout her career, highlighted in one instance in a very important way as White House correspondent for the Canadian press during the Obama administration. So, leanne, welcome to the Speaking of Media podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 1:00

My pleasure, nice to see you again.

Keith Marnoch: 1:02

Yeah, good to see you. So Leanne and I go way back to journalism school we won't say when that was, but it was a while ago and you've had a much more fascinating career than I have, being able to turn in what we learned at the Ryerson Journalism School into something quite amazing, and you're currently the political editor at the Conversation Canada, an online publication that I would highly recommend to our audience. You can correct me, but it's essentially sort of an academic writing or editorial platform that.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 1:36

Yeah, academics write for us based on their areas of expertise, and then we turn them sort of into news stories. And then we turn them sort of into news stories. They're great at providing the information and then we take all the great information and turn it into a sort of a news story that's aimed at the general public, but it's always free. It's free to publish via Creative Commons, so it's a great site. And I look every day there.

Keith Marnoch: 1:59

You're basically putting profs and sort of an academic viewpoint on news of the day. Is that kind of?

Lee-Anne Goodman: 2:04

Yes, we're getting professors to write about news events based on their expertise or their own research. So it's a it's a really fascinating model and I, I, I really do learn something new every day, which, at this age which we won't mention, keith is very, you know, it's great, it's really gratifying.

Keith Marnoch: 2:26

All right, so let's jump into what we've decided we're going to talk about here and sort of the Trump effect I'm going to call it, but knowing what you know from a reporter on the ground at the White House, is there possibly some well thought out, larger plan to the Trump approach to communicating and running the world that we live in right now? Or is it in fact just this power hungry populist who's sticking to sort of sweeping, dogmatic approaches to things that's just based on common misconceptions and biases and he jumps in on everything? What's your take when you sit at home and watch everything that's happening?

Lee-Anne Goodman: 3:03

You know it's funny you should. When I think back on the Obama years, where I was there for six years, I feel like I dreamt it, like it was just so much of a polar opposite in terms of the approach to the media and the communication style and the thoughtfulness of Obama, the contemplativeness of Obama. And don't get me wrong, obama wasn't perfect. Like every president, he made mistakes, but I just feel like it was a calm before a terrible storm and I think I don't think there's any. The grand plan, I think, is Project 2025. And I think the masterminds of Project 2025, which truly is an entire overhaul and remaking of the American experiment, that's not democratic in any way. It's a right-wing agenda aimed at silencing progressive voices and progressive initiatives.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 3:59

And I don't think that Trump, to be honest, he does have areas in which he's pretty smart. He knows how to whip up a crowd, he knows how to get people talking, but I don't think he has a very intelligent strategy when it comes to dealing with the media and I think in him and his undisciplined nature, but the fact that he's still so popular among people who are anti-elitist and think that the progressives are out to change their way of life they have found pardon the expression a bit of a useful idiot. He has a thick skin. He doesn't care that he might go down in history as being one of the worst presidents in the world. Apparently, every day, he sort of is making a fool of himself on gaza and everything else, and it doesn't seem to bother him. And while he's doing all this, it just seems to me they're in the background, like jd vance I don't know if you saw the jd vance tweet yesterday, which was really terrifying, where he basically suggested don't follow.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 5:03

Yeah, the judiciary shouldn't have any power over presidential power, like over the executive. So in other words, to me the suggestion is we're going to ignore the judiciary. So what follows after that? To me, maybe you start ignoring election outcomes and if you start ignoring and violating the Constitution, then you've got a real problem on your hands because the US military upholds an oath to maintain the integrity and to defend the American Constitution. So it's a very scary time. I haven't slept in weeks.

Keith Marnoch: 5:39

So you know, stepping back from even the very political part of this, this being sort of a communications examination of how things work and we always find when we talk about politics on this show that politics is a little bit different and a little bit more visible than sort of communicating at a corporation or whatever. But just stepping back in terms of the big picture things and there's been a ton of stuff, just stepping back in terms of the big picture things and there's been a ton of stuff I think you would agree the volume of news and work that's been done in the first month of this presidency would be far beyond anything else that we've seen in previous administrations.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 6:15

Yeah, it's like there's something every two hours. It's not even something every day, there's something every several hours.

Keith Marnoch: 6:22

That's bonkers something every several hours, that's bonkers.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 6:26

I think politics actually I'm editing a piece right now about how communications and politics is a lot more about persuasion than it is about policy. So he's been very good at persuading people that the left is out to get them. He's even persuaded a lot of a big chunk of the American electorate to vote against their interests. And he's got all these demographics that are now going to be seriously harmed by these tariffs and many of the other things he's proposing to do, including ending aid to farmers, and they voted overwhelmingly for him. He's managed to convince people that the boogeyman are the others, the immigrants coming in Canada. We're ripping them off right Right.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 7:17

So that's a great example.

Keith Marnoch: 7:19

That's a great example when he talks about a trade imbalance and he calls that a subsidy. You know, like again, words, words are forming impressions that people buy into. In a way that's almost cult like cult like following. If he's saying it, he is. You know even things that are against what is obviously fact.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 7:39

He's saying something different, he has a, he has a following that supports him and no matter what he's putting forward, and that's yeah, he's managed to convince people not to trust scientists and a lot of his cabinet picks have managed, have have built careers on it. Look at rfk jr. He doesn't have a health background and he's managed to convince people the vaccines cause autism and that you know that. I could list off all the crazy things that that guy believes, and he's now probably going to be health secretary. He's managed to convince people to distrust facts and to distrust science and he obviously found, I believe, sort of a slightly insecure intellectually insecure demographic that does feel like the elites and academics and whoever they are think they're stupid, they're defensive about it and I think he's weaponized those people and the left has been wrong to call those people stupid and to suggest that it was a big swath of voters who were just too dumb to know better. That just has incited them and made them more angry.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 8:47

And also the role of social media and people being able to just find their little communities and their echo chambers and just cut out all factual information. That's been huge. I remember when the internet was coming to be and social media was starting. I don't know about you, but I remember thinking, oh, this is a wonderful thing, it's going to democratize the world. We're going to get our information without the filter of governments and, right, we're going to be hearing from real people. But it just didn't turn out that way at all.

Keith Marnoch: 9:18

It seems like it's amplified conspiracy and it's given rise to sort of legitimizing what is not true in a way that if the right person says it then they'll get the support. I think a lot of the stuff around tariffs and so on is really sort of thrown back on Canadians. At least you know so who are we right? And one of my definitions in terms of, you know, canada versus the US is my fascination with the culture of guns, which I would also kind of say might, and the fascination of celebrity, and I think that those two things have certainly come to the fore in terms of clicking into people's psyche in terms of the support right. But it's very strange and curious about how he has developed this. Whatever you say, I'm going to do Like I'll follow, no matter what.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 10:07

I know the way the justifications you hear from his supporters on some of the crazier things he says too, although I do see his approval ratings are in the toilet now. I think there might be a bit of buyer's remorse, but how did it happen a second time, like we went through this? We went through this like years ago, where there was buyer's remorse very quickly, and this has been much more alarmist, I feel. It felt to me like in 2015,.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 10:36

As different from Obama as he was, even he seemed to recognize that there were some guardrails, like there were some things that he wasn't going to be able to do. And this time it just seems like he's backed by these Project 25 architects and Elon Musk, the billions and billions that the tech companies and the tech bros are giving him. He's completely emboldened and he's just going for it. That's what it feels like to me. You know, I have a child, an adult child, who lives in New York City and I'm not going to lie, I kind of wish she'd come home. I don't know how bad it's going to get down there.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 11:14

I think if anybody rises up, it'll be New Yorkers, who have despised that guy for years, I don't know without mentioning the year that you and I were at university together. Do you remember Spy Magazine back then? It was entirely focused on just crapping on Trump and mocking him at all times. It was Graydon Carter who coined the short finger Bulgarian insult that still bugs Trump to this day. So it'll be New Yorkers that, I think, will be the ones that rise up. But who knows how bad it's going to get, and it seems to me it's very scary. At the moment I feel like I just I don't sleep. I had dreams the other night that I was trying to find Elon Musk so that I could talk some sense.

Keith Marnoch: 12:01

I think one of the underlying themes currently is destabilization, right? So we live in a world that's very unsettled and that's not the world that most people like or are used to, right? And I think that with every action he takes, that gets worse. Can you just sort of inform our viewers the difference between executive order and legislation? Because, to be fair, up till now, all the stuff that he has done or enacted has been by executive order rather than going through the legislature, right? So basically, he hasn't forced his own people to endorse things in any sort of a documented way, yet they're just nodding at what he's putting in place. And correct me if I'm wrong, but executive orders tend to usually have times on, like a time limit on them or a very particular, they don't have the weight of Congress behind them.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 12:52

So a judge can very easily overturn an executive order, which you've already seen a couple of times, and some of them have been ridiculous. Like he put out an executive order blaming Biden for the DC plane crash. It's like what? Like it's not. It's just. It's just like he's using them as though an old time king would use a proclamation. You know the trumpet out the window and somebody reads something. I don't even really think he totally understands the purpose of an executive order.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 13:18

Biden did a couple too, but they were to undo some of the Trump stuff and they were largely upheld. They weren't challenged in court and so they went through. You know they all, when they come in, they will all put in executive orders to undo some of the more egregious things that the previous administration did. Sometimes they get to the courts, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they don't even bother taking them or challenging them in the courts because they know it was kind of a ridiculous policy to begin with. So yeah, he's not got Congress backing him yet, but you know, I have no doubt that most of Congress is going to fall in line. It seems like they're falling in line for most of his egregious cabinet picks. Including the guy with a history of alcoholism.

Keith Marnoch: 14:03

including the guy with a history of alcoholism. Yeah, each one of them amazingly seemed to have some crazy wild why you wouldn't want to hire them for these jobs. But I guess it just made for good television and maybe that's another part of his motivations. I don't know.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 14:16

No, it's all about loyalty to him. He's choosing them out of their loyalty to him. They've all pledged, they've all kissed the ring, and not just now for opportunistic reasons although Tulsi Gabbard, you could argue that she is being opportunistic but the others, for years they've been Trump loyalists and he's rewarding the loyalists.

Keith Marnoch: 14:38

So let's take a little bit of a Canadian turn on this conversation, then Definitely it's affecting us. We were, as a country, sort of an early target of sort of this world order. What's your sense of how that's affected us? My sense is that, you know, pierre Polyev in Canada was basically all set up to take over the reins of the prime ministership because everybody was disliking Trudeau. But now is that an advantage or a disadvantage to sort of be almost seen as in this country at least aligned more with Trump, as opposed to somebody who might come back and save the liberals fortunes if they can actually come up with a way to sort of be more opposing to him. I don't know. I think that I've seen polls in the last few days that say that the landscape has changed on a possible election once the Liberals figure out who's going to lead them.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 15:32

Yeah well, there's been a couple of polls the last few days about Canadians believing Carney is better positioned and more qualified to take on Trump. But they trust Carney to take on Trump more than Kvalia. Kvalia must be mad.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 15:46

Losing his mind he was way ahead and it looks like if the Liberals go with Trump or with Carney, he's got a fight on his hands. And also you see Doug Ford who's like totally running on Trump right, which I think is probably smart, a smart thing to do, especially when you look at the numbers in Ontario. The Ontarians like really are anti-Trump. So, yeah, I think it's changing politics up here and I do think you have to make the calculation, like we see what's going on down there. Do we want a Conservative leader who might be inspired by that playbook? Like it's pretty frightening.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 16:31

You know, I've always felt that the conservatives shoot themselves in the feet time and again because they fail to go with a progressive conservative leader. Like if it was somebody like Rona Ambrose or Lisa Raich or you know an old time sort of progressive conservative, I think they'd have a really good chance. Time sort of progressive conservative, I think they'd have a really good chance. But they keep going with these guys who with the exception maybe of Aaron O'Toole, who really stepped to the right, and I just don't think that's where most Canadians are but what do I know? Look how far ahead he's been in the polls until now, so Right.

Keith Marnoch: 16:59

And I feel like you know, even different than maybe 10 years ago. I just feel like the velocity or the speed of change is so rapid, right? I mean like literally the Ontario election was called saying well, we need to, you know, adjust to Trump. After the election was called, then the tariffs came along and everybody had to change their way. I mean I feel like in ontario, both the other, the other two parties uh, the liberals and the ndp are probably going to fight, have to fight for party status. Like it's very opportunistic, it doesn't really have much to do with the issues, it is not you on.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 17:37

Uh, just getting about the green belt scandal, all that stuff ah, just details right it's. I feel it's. It's a smart move on Ford's part. I totally get it from a political perspective why you go out now. He's got a gift in Trump, who Ontario voters despise.

Keith Marnoch: 17:59

You talked a little bit about social media and obviously that has a huge impact on politics and social media and obviously that has a huge impact on politics and on people's perception on, you know, a myriad of issues these days. Um, I guess I'm really curious about how someone uh can come into office and sort of be vengeful of the past or, you know, and using the office for what seems to be personal good, and also the whole idea that Trump in real terms, hasn't really become a politician. He remains a businessman. When he talked about acquiring the Gaza Strip, it was done in developer terms. It's just crazy. But by the same token, it doesn't seem to matter to people, even though it shakes up the world order. And it's one thing to kind of affect your own country, but the reality is that the United States does really affect the entire world and everyone's politics and everybody's trying to figure out how to kind of be the foil or the response to that right.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 19:01

When I covered Obama, one of the biggest scandals that everybody was so mad about was that he wore a tan suit. Do you remember that Ridiculous things and that Michelle Obama was trying to get healthy lunches into schools, that he put Dijon on his mustard, on his hot dog what an elitist. Like the things that that man that they, that it was so unserious and you were just like, is this all you've got? And then when you compare, like if Obama had done one 100th of what Trump had done, he'd be sitting in a prison cell right now, Right? So it's just kind of shocking that it's just like this new normal where we just accept oh, I guess he's doing this now, but is that going to remain the case? Like, are we going to be forgiving and is it normalizing this kind of corrupt behavior? I don't know. Yeah.

Keith Marnoch: 19:54

Today's episode of Speaking of Media is being recorded at the Digital Creative Arts Centre at the Boys and Girls Club of London, ontario, canada. So further on that thought, I know Leanne with the Conversation Canada, for example. I know that dealing on the other end of trying to get professors or academics to write for your publication, often they would worry about being dumbed down. Right, they say, oh well, you know, my work is this and I don't write things for people to understand, I write things to sort of document and so on. But on that trend, simplifying versus dumbing down in terms of messaging from the current US president, he doesn't care about that of course. He just kind of goes with the flow and the top line headline. He's not really worried about details and ramifications and I think that that's been seen pretty clearly.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 20:47

I think he's a master at dumbing down, Dumbing down to such an extent it's like, is there any intelligence here? Like, can we just elevate it a bit? He could use a bit of the academic snobbery about.

Keith Marnoch: 21:00

Right. So when you used to sit in the press room at the. White House. Was there a sense of the polarization that we're seeing these days, where there were particular publications that were very dogmatic about a certain approach or sort of their agenda in terms of telling stories? I've got to think that it's progressed to the point where it's very different now, but maybe not.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 21:31

The seeds of this started with Obama. I hate to say it. That's not to blame Obama, but there was a faction of the population that did not like, no matter what they say. If they say it was something else, it was about the fact that he was a black man.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 21:46

I covered these rallies that were called the Tea Party rallies at the time, where there were people with t-shirts on and cartoons of Obama with a bone through his nose the most racist, awful things they were espousing about him. Those people are the MAGA people. They became the MAGA people and so and there were very, there are a lot of very like hateful sort of right wing, anti-obama news outlets that I think even the Obama people took away their press passes at one point, which caused a bit of a scandal, but they would come in and be saying awful things and making awful suggestions about Obama and the tan suit and Dijon mustard and whatever it was. You know they were not huge scandals at the time. The things that were quite scandalous about the Obama administration, like the drones, that stuff didn't become a scandal because back then they were war hawks and now suddenly they're only expansionists.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 22:47

Anyway, who knows? So yeah, the seeds of this I really believe. Well, I think this has been simmering under the surface of the United States experiment since the civil War. I believe that there's still been an intellectual civil war going on in that country. It never really got resolved. So I'm not saying that it started with Obama, but it certainly that spurred a terrible mood among certain electorate. And then Trump starts wading in way back then, going on about him being not born in the U S. Remember Trump was a big birther, demanded that he showed his birth certificate even though he'd already showed it and and I remember Obama calling him a carnival barker, angered him. And then I was actually at the White House correspondent dinner where Obama just mocked him and Trump was there and I wasn't sitting close enough to see Trump.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 23:46

I was way at the back, you're such an insider, but I saw the pictures later where you could just see the rage coming over him, the hulking steam coming out of his ears, and that too apparently had a role in why he wanted to run. How dare this guy mock me? Anyway, all I'm saying is not that Obama started any of this. I think Trump was a big backlash to Obama and he weaponized all of that base, those Tea Party people and he made it bigger. He made it normal to be racist. He normalized and made it acceptable to say racist things.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 24:31

My nephew is just telling me. My nephew lives in Windsor and he went over across the border recently to go buy a fishing rod, a Bass Pro, whatever and he said that as he was over across the border recently to go buy a fishing rod, a bass pro, whatever and he said that as he was coming up the stairs and going to the store, a black kid was coming past him and he's got a bum knee. My nephew and he had to move out of the way and the black kid said, oh, it's okay, sir, and kind of helped him, moved out of his way and was very polite and he gets into the store and the old store shopkeeper said the most racist things to him about this nice, polite teenage black boy. It's like you know, 10 years ago he might have thought it but he wouldn't have said it. But I think they can say it now because Trump has made it acceptable. It's okay to be racist, it's normal. We're all racist and he's weaponized that I believe.

Keith Marnoch: 25:19

Yeah, very much so. So again, getting back to sort of the communication of this, it was noted early in the new administration that they were allowing more bloggers and, I guess, social media based publications whatever you want to call it into the White House press room. Whatever you want to call it into the White House press room. I mean, I feel like that's interesting. I'd love your take on that. But also the fact that it's no longer just the politicians that say us and them, it is the media that literally say they, they'll say they when they speak of an opposing view or the other party, right? And I feel like it's just kind of getting a little incestuous that everybody has to kind of stake out their claim and say that I'm always going to be in this corner and I'm going to take and report or tell stories based on my viewpoint. And, like you pointed out, it's more polarized, right, you're only hearing, you know, in your phone you're only going to hear the people who are like-minded to you, right?

Lee-Anne Goodman: 26:19

Anyhow, I just think that that's. You're even seeing it on the left like you're seeing people on the left like leave the Washington Post and droves because of Bezos not endorsing Kamala Harris, which I get why people were mad about that, because they always did endorse. But I also think that whole concept of newspapers endorsing political candidates is stupid in this day and age. It just tells people that you just and I didn't disagree with him, even though I think he was just covering his bum that people already think we're biased. Why give them more? I just I don't and I also don't think it may it changes anybody's vote. But having said that, it's not just the right that will refuse to read the New York Times or, you know, call the Washington Post a rag. Anything that disagrees with them becomes this, you know, becomes something to attack. The left does it too.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 27:12

And I kind of feel for the news organizations that are trying to be as straight and as fair as possible, because you're always going to, somebody's always going to be angry at you and accuse you of giving them a free pass. I mean, maggie Halberman at the New York Times always comes in from it from both sides. The left accuses her of being too nice to Trump and the right accuses her of being after Trump, like she cannot win. And I do feel you know it's come to a point where objective reporting is now getting attacked, like if you're not editorializing in your reporting then you must be in the tank, which is so disturbing.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 27:53

And I think that's another symptom of blogging and social media. And you know, I'm all for all sorts of different types of media being given press passes. Like you know, open the tent, let everybody in. But I don't think, I'm pretty sure the bloggers that are getting in under the Trump administration are probably not progressive blogs. And you know, in fairness, I don't think Obama let in a lot of Hispanic news outlets. In fairness, I don't think Obama let in a lot of Hispanic news outlets and racialized news outlets because he felt that was part of his base and he was attacked for that. But I don't know. To me that makes sense. You want to get the news to as many communities as possible.

Keith Marnoch: 28:34

Well, it feels like you know when we were in journalism school, that you know being objective about a story, trying to come up with both sides of the story and then maybe drawing something out of that, depending upon how strong arguments were on either side. You know things progress, but you wouldn't think that that would be the basis, for you know we need to change that and we need to kind of go into. You know each, you know in separate corners, but that's really you know, for better or worse. That is where we're at in terms of the way that people are getting news.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 29:03

I do kind of agree with the criticisms of two sides, ism, because there's certain stories where there just isn't another side, Like I don't know, like Trump's rape convictions, Well, what's the other side? Well, what are we going to? You know, there's some. I do find that, in an effort to be fair, sometimes media organizations, even news reporters sometimes, will like contort themselves, put in a line or two that tells the other side. But there's just some stories, but there's just not really two sides.

Keith Marnoch: 29:35

Yeah, well, there's not many of those that are happening right now. I remember I was watching Fox News last week after Trump had basically admitted this was like the day after he announced his big deal about buying the Gaza Strip and turning it into the Jersey Shore was trying to convince their Middle East reporter, who knew exactly why it wasn't going to fly and was trying to be nice about yeah, that's not really going to happen. The commentator, the host of the show, kept pushing hard to say like, but can't you see how you know, maybe it might work? And the guy's going, yeah, well, not really. And he was trying so hard to validate what the president had already put out but had already sort of said, yeah, what the president had already put out, but had already sort of said, yeah, that's maybe not a great idea that we'll do right now and it's just it's so.

Keith Marnoch: 30:21

It's such a it sometimes feels like a comedy, but other days it just feels like we're living in that and what's that mean? It feels to me like it's sort of an emperor has no clothes situation. It is an autocracy or going towards something different. In plain view, it's not like it's being, it's not subversive, it's just take it or leave it, and lots of people are taking it.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 30:45

Yeah, we're watching it in real time, in plain view. They're not even hiding it, and I know what you mean. It feels like satire, like if you watch Veep now, which I loved.

Keith Marnoch: 30:54

Right.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 30:55

And I remember Obama saying Veep was closer to how Washington really was than any other show, which made it even funnier. It doesn't seem like the stuff that Trump's coming out with every day is not is crazier than the stuff that was on Veep, like it's just, it's kind of killed satire. I feel like we're living in a satirical situation, so it's scary.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 31:19

I've been trying to, because I'm trying to calm myself down because I do have a child that lives there and I'm finding it very scary. So, even talking to a friend today, how bad is it going to get? Is the military going to have to get involved? Will they have to overthrow him when he starts violating the constitution? But are there any silver linings to another four years of Trump? It's obviously a major reset. They're trying to reset everything. Just go back to the drawing board. Could there be some benefits to that? Or is there fat that needs to be cut? Have we gotten, are we going too far on certain social issues, that people just aren't there yet? Obama even said that at one point that he feels when he looks back God love Obama partially blaming himself that he went too far on some things and people weren't ready for it, which I found very sad.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 32:13

But maybe he's right, maybe that just you know people in the rural areas or people who don't live in the big urban cities, where they aren't exposed to different cultures and different demographics. It's, it's frightening to them. It's too fast, so maybe everything just needs to slow down a bit. But I don't know how do you tell people no, you're not entitled to civil rights, because you know the red States. The voters in the red states don't want you to have them. It's such a terrible time and it's so hard to figure out how it's going to go, where it's going to end up.

Keith Marnoch: 32:49

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. I mean just to kind of sum up. It's like is are we going to look at four years or, who knows, maybe longer of being destabilizing? Because who? Who will ultimately be someone who will stand up and at least voice an opposition? You know, the Congress and the Senate are set up in the United States. There's not a lot of, there's not really an opportunity for the other party to do much, at least in the first two years of this administration.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 33:21

And who knows what goes on in the midterms. Are they going to just disregard the outcome of the midterms? Are they going to rig midterms? I don't like saying that because when the right said it about the Biden election being stolen, it was so ridiculous. But even that now I'm thinking, well, maybe that was by design, because now they really do rig it. They feel like, oh well, you didn't like it when we said that I don't know, are there people in the shadows? You know you're wondering okay, what are the Obamas and the Clintons? What are they doing right now? Where's Kamala? Are they all figuring out how they're going to deal with if it gets really bad? Yeah, I don't know. And who were the people that stood up within the party the last time? Like the Mary cheney's and, um, you know all of the chiefs of staff whose names they went through so many and they all kind of turned on him in the end like bill barr. Even in the end was like this guy's, another are they around um marco rubio.

Keith Marnoch: 34:25

To me seems like he might have a soul right like strangely, like you would never have said that before, but is he though?

Lee-Anne Goodman: 34:32

actually like way back when I did a profile of Marco Rubio because he was supposed to be like the future of the Republican Party, like he was young and Hispanic and he was a moderate and like they had high hopes for Marco Rubio. But then sort of the really extreme right wing of the party kind of took control and I mean Trump mocked him for years and there he is Secretary of State.

Keith Marnoch: 34:56

Oh, yeah, yeah, don't worry about what's been said about somebody else. We can change our minds, no problem with that. But my feeling is like you know, going to an establishment, family or figure, I don't think the Clintons or the Bushes are going to fix this. There has to be some sort of an entity, or a person maybe, but some sort of movement that either decides that this needs to get brought together somehow or we just continue to go even further apart. And if it's only happening now, in sort of rhetoric, that might be the case, but I really do, without getting too extreme, wondering how far us and them goes and how dangerous that may become and how that ultimately affects you know, people like ourselves in Canada and around the world. When the US is not stable, how does the rest of the world order work through it right?

Lee-Anne Goodman: 35:52

And will people be inspired by him, like that's the fear, like it's a big power grab?

Keith Marnoch: 35:59

um people may see how popular he is and feel like they need to emulate him rather than to um, oppose or bring, bring forward a different view and, uh, you know, just like stock market tanks because he's tanks because he's so egotistical.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 36:16

Apparently, his big fear is he doesn't want to be regarded as Herbert Hoover. He doesn't want to be the depression president. So I think if the stock market started to tank and people started to lose money and the economy really crashed, I think that would be the thing that would get him to correct course. For purely reputational reasons, he doesn't want to go down that way. But I think the Project 2025 people Elon Musk has basically said no, we're willing to absorb.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 36:46

It's going to be a lot of pain, a lot of pain, but that's what has to happen to get us out on the other side. It's like, well, okay, really Like how much pain. And is this kind of bold, anti-democratic politicking the style of doing politics? Is it going to spread? Are people going to be inspired by him? Like, obviously that guy in Brazil loved him. He would love to get back in, but Brazil won't let him run again, which to me, makes sense. I don't even know how Trump was allowed to run again. But okay, here we are. But I don't think Pauliev is that kind of politician, but I don't know.

Keith Marnoch: 37:27

Well, they used to say that it's easy to compare sort of like Harper to Obama, but the reality is the scale is very different. It doesn't match up right and left like people think it does.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 37:39

No, they weren't really very crazy about each other. They didn't have a lot of time for each other.

Keith Marnoch: 37:44

Right, but the reality is that Obama was probably more right-wing in real terms, rather than what Canadians understood of him.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 37:51

The Democrats are, like our conservatives, right Everybody thinks and the Republicans are way further to the right. Everybody thinks that it's the liberals and Democrats, but really, in terms of like trade protectionism, democrats are as protectionist as Republicans are. Biden also levied tariffs and didn't eliminate some of Trump's. So you know they're doing it to cozy up to their. In Biden's case, he's doing it to keep the unions happy, you know.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 38:22

And the other big problem with that whole political system is the money that's in it. Like, as long as you've got lobbyists calling the shots and buying you and destroying you in a primary challenge and Obama really did try to get the money out of the system and then the Supreme Court overruled. That was a big mistake. Canada at least, has done that. There's still ways to support politicians, but not to the extent that you can that corporations and lobbies can control the agenda in the United States. But again, maybe that'll be great because if the economy starts to tank and all these big corporations are getting kicked in the bottom line and the migrant deportations cause them a lot of problems, maybe that gets Trump to correct course. Right.

Keith Marnoch: 39:11

Well, so we're in this for four years, maybe longer. You look at appointments to the Supreme Court in the US and so on, but it looks like something that we're going to have to deal with in the generation ahead, not in the few years ahead, no matter sort of who's in charge. But I'll just maybe throw it back to you. I know you're apprehensive, but your thoughts in terms of where we might be at the end of four years of, uh, of the current administration that we might, may or may not like to be at, what do you? What are you seeing? That's not.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 39:41

That's keeping you awake at night, literally well, uh, like, if they start violating the constitution, I really think it could. There could be a civil war looming and it's terrifying because the majority of people who are armed in that country and there's so many guns in that country, 300 million or something crazy I saw a study once that the majority of them are like right-leaning um. So you know, a civil war could get pretty terrible. I really hope that doesn't happen. I'd be interested to see if he pulls out of NATO. I think he's pondering that, or he's going to insist that people, that all the members spend 5% of their GDP on defense spending, which would be almost impossible for Canada to do.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 40:33

If Canada tried to do it, it would affect every aspect of our lives you and me and our kids, in terms of you know, our CPP pensions, like. There's just not the money there to spend 5% of our GDP on military spending. Neither is it for many of the other members. So it just I don't know what's going to happen. It's the first time in my life I really I couldn't tell you. I'm hoping that the stock market crashes and the tariffs cause a lot of problems to American businesses. So for his own egotistical purposes, he puts the brakes to some of this stuff. But you know, if Vance gets in, he doesn't. Trump doesn't seem like a very healthy person to me. It feels like it feels like it's going to be 82, 83.

Keith Marnoch: 41:19

I just feel I've always kind of said that it's interesting to. I feel like he doesn't hide much. I think he shows his pettiness, I think he shows his ambition. I think he shows not all good, not all bad, not all good, but unlike other politicians who are more guarded, don't say things, he says everything, mostly unfiltered, and you would think that the antidote to that is knowing weaknesses or things that set him off, that you could, if you were smart or savvy, would know how to sort of turn that back or, you know, either flatter or otherwise influence him to try to get what you want. And it's been only three or three, some weeks since this person has been at the helm and so much has happened. And it's, I guess you know, just from this conversation. We're left with way more questions than certainly answers and wondering where, where this might all end up.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 42:14

And the Democrats just seem to be in disarray, like even they seem stunned that it's going. It's been this crazy, this so quickly out of the gate. I really hope, like you said, I agree, those dynastic Democratic families. I think they've got to stay out of it. The Clintons, the Bushes nobody wants to hear from them anymore. The Obamas maybe people really like her I don't know about him as much as her People. Really I feel admired her for not going to the inauguration and I think she's super smart. But I think you need to get people like Buttigieg out all the time.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 42:50

I think the Democrats should be holding a news conference every day and I was talking to a mutual friend of ours, keith, our friend Jennifer, who told me she's got family in the US. She doesn't understand why people aren't out on the streets like in masses, like they were in Germany when the rise of a far-right government. Why aren't people out in the streets? I think if that started happening, I think Trump, out of sheer embarrassment, might dial some of it back. But I also think Americans are exhausted.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 43:18

This has been going on for 10 years and they're finding that left-leaning progressive voters are tuning out of the news. They just can't bear to read anymore. They were so broken by that competent, intelligent woman who brought a lot of joy, like she seemed to have this. I thought she ran a great campaign, like it was so positive. No, I think a lot of. I know women of my age, my American girlfriends. They are just demoralized and cannot. I just can't bear to watch for a while. Maybe that will change, but until people are out on the streets and the economy really tanks, I don't know where this is going and the Democrats really have to get it together and get their young stars out holding news conferences every day and attacking all of these policies.

Keith Marnoch: 44:07

Well, we agreed earlier on that politics is different than sort of corporate communication, but the reality is that, as we've all learned through social media and so on, is that you really have to listen to, if not cater to, your audience right, and politics has the opportunity to do that and, you know, it might be quite necessary for all political corners in the US and around the world. Frankly is, we're going to see a Canadian election here, probably in the next four to six months. We're in an Ontario election which basically has been ignored because of Trump and so many other things that are important that really are just waiting to see what this one person is going to be doing in terms of dropping, you know, a shoe the next day. That might be quite polar opposite to what he said two days before that. So we live in a world where we kind of are beholden to him at the moment and we'll have to see how things develop.

Keith Marnoch: 45:03

Hey, listen, this is way more time than I expected from you and I really appreciate it and a good conversation, and if we have a blow up and anything we've talked about today, maybe we'll have you back, because I'd love that. I love your perspective on things and the fact that you're able to bring sort of a ringside experience to the conversation is really super, and thanks so much for the time. Leanne, my pleasure, and keep up the great work as political editor at the Conversation Canada. Hopefully people will take a look at that platform.

Lee-Anne Goodman: 45:32

Read and read. They don't have to pay.

Keith Marnoch: 45:34

Okay, so there's your sales pitch. That's your two seconds. You're welcome, okay, and anyhow, thank you so much for being on the show and yeah, hopefully we can keep the conversation going here and if we get the chance to have you on again, we'd love to do that. So, thanks so much. Yeah, for sure, okay, bye, okay, bye-bye. And so an interesting conversation with Leanne Goodman, former White House correspondent for the Canadian press and Canadian journalist here in Canada, talking about the Trump effect both in Canada and around the world. We look forward to talking to her again. We don't try to get too political here on the podcast, but certainly we enjoy examining communication as it applies to politics and certainly that's a big topic of conversation these days. So we thank Leanne for being on the show. Thanks for joining us here on this episode. You can also listen to other episodes of the podcast at wwwspeakingofmediacom. I'm Keith Marnock and I look forward to the next time we are together when, once again, we will be speaking of media.