Ep73: Dream Telepathy & Shared Dreaming

Angel Kwan-Yin Morgan, founder of Dreambridge, specializes in dreams, creativity, and the connection between the two. She has worked with adults, children, teens, and parents as a Dream-Arts educator since 1995 and received her Ph.D. in Psychology. Aa an experienced lucid dreamer, she started learning about her own dreams when she was four years old from her father, a psychologist who gave her tools from Kilton Stewart’s Senoi Dream Theory.  Dr. Morgan also talks about the methodologies she has developed for dream telepathy and shared dreaming research.

Resources mentioned in this episode

• Angel's website https://www.thedreambridge.com/
• Dreamer's Powerful Tiger
• Extraordinary Dreams and How to Work With Them
• Sleep monsters and superheroes
• IASD (International Association for the Study of Dreams) Website 

Transcript

Dream Telepathy & Shared Dreaming
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Amina: [00:00:00] I'm here with Dr. Angel Morgan. She's the founder of DreamBridge and the director of the Dream Studies Certificate Program at Sofia University. She has a PhD in psychology and does a lot of work within the DreamWork field, which has been very inspiring to me. I'm really excited to talk to you here and tell me your journey with how you got started with DreamWork and how it led you to this awesome career path.

Dr. Angel Morgan: Oh my goodness. Thank you for the kind introduction, Amina. And I'm happy to finally make it here onto the podcast with you as well. Things are busy lately in a good way with dreams, right? There's a big explosion of interest in dreams, which is wonderful. Okay. My story. Oh, I didn't know you were going to ask me that first off.

Let's see. Well, okay. I know you're interested in lucid dreaming, right? This is kind of your focus. And my whole approach to lucid dreaming is influenced by development because I started very young. Uh, I started as a young child around four years [00:01:00] old, uh, having nightmares and my psychologist father helped me learn Sonoy dream work in order to practice what is essentially lucid dreaming from that lens.

So. It's interesting. Recently, there was a journalist who approached me and asked me if I, you know, could give an interview about how learning lucid dreaming changed my life. Um, but he wanted to hear a story of someone who had lived a normal life, doing normal things and then learn lucid dreaming and it changed their life.

And I said, I'm sorry, that's not my story. My story is I learned it. As a child, and it changed my life as a child. So my whole approach to teaching lucid dreaming comes from that developmental perspective of, you know, what, how can parents help young children when they are showing that sign of a very natural developmental nightmare, which is they're being chased by something, some kind of animal, some kind of monster.

[00:02:00] This is a rite of passage. It's an opportunity. It's a possibility. And so educating more parents in the next generations. To raise their children that way is part of my whole mission with Lucid Dream Education. Any questions so far, or should I keep going? 

Amina: I mean, I love that. I have so many questions. I'll kind of let you, you know, it's no pressure as much as you want to share, but we share similar passions, so that's very exciting to hear.

Dr. Angel Morgan: Yeah, and then, um, developmentally, of course, going into the teenage years, there are more opportunities and more challenges and, you know, a lot more people start to experience sleep paralysis. And that's an opportunity for lucid dreaming as well. So, anyway, there are, there are a lot of, um, methods, techniques, et cetera, that are being taught around lucid dreaming.

And my whole approach just tends to be developmental, starting with what people as adults, or as, you know, young adults, older adults, teens, whatever [00:03:00] age you are, if you never got that dream education as a child, going back to that, because we all have that inner child. So teaching people how to work with their dreams.

And that's why I wrote Dreamer's Powerful Tiger, a new lucid dreaming classic for children and parents of the 21st century. Long subtitle, but the whole idea is that it's never too late to go back and heal that child nightmare that you had and how lucid dreaming also is part of the community and how we can build dream communities to support that work.

So I don't know, did you read Dreamer's Powerful Tiger? I'm curious. 

Amina: No, I have not but I've seen it on Amazon and I actually really want to order it because there's not that many children's books really only like a handful that I've seen about lucid dreaming. So that's wonderful. I'm actually going to order a few copies for some of my friends that have children.

Dr. Angel Morgan: That's amazing. And it's also because you know, I teach at Sofia [00:04:00] University, we have a dream study certificate program, and it's international, but there's also a program A dream study certificate specifically in China. So it's also available in Chinese language, the book. And there's an audio book that I recorded the last time we were in Rolduck.

Now you're going to the dream conference in Rolduck, right? Yes. I'm so excited. Yes. It'll be great to see you again. Ashland was a blast, right? So now we get to go to Rolduck. And the last time I was enrolled, uh, 2019 was my first year as the president of ISD. And after that conference, I took a train to Paris and I recorded an audiobook for Dreamer's Powerful Tiger with my friend, Dana Boulay, who is a composer and she composed an all original soundtrack for it.

So you can also find that on Audible or iTunes or wherever you go, wherever you buy audio books. 

Amina: So I really love that because I also, I started lucid dreaming as a child as well. [00:05:00] So I can relate on that. Um, and it's always been a huge part of my life and I really, you know, I've always loved children and just, you know, Like babysitting and all that kind of stuff.

Even though I don't have kids myself, I've always been passionate about that. Like teaching children how to lucid dream, especially because children have nightmares and things like that. So that's really cool. I'm totally supportive of that mission. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Yes. And I know, uh, I think you're familiar with Ed Kellogg's work, right?

As well. So when my children, I have two children who are adults, young adults, probably around your age now. I don't know how old you are, but anyway, they're in their mid twenties. mid late 20s. And when they were 10 and 13, my son was 10, my daughter was 13. And Ed Kellogg had this lucid dreaming challenge for children.

It was the Harry Potter lucid dreaming challenge. Now Harry Potter was very big, right? Yes, I remember. And so the challenge was As soon as you become lucid in a dream to [00:06:00] try out one of the spells from Harry Potter. And my son tried it but he said he got distracted by something and it didn't quite work out.

He was 10. My daughter was 13 and and they're second generation Senoi inspired dreamers so they've been around me and around all of my work with Dream Bridge. So anyway, she was, my daughter comes running out of her room and she runs down the stairs and she says, I did it. I did it. I went into a room. It was really dark.

And I pulled out my wand and said Lumos and lit up the room and it, it lit up and she just got so excited. So, you know, there, there are a lot of, um, games for children as they grow developmentally as well with the lucid that can get more fun and interesting. And again, if an adult has never done these things, adults can try these things as well.

Like, I have this exercise called the Lucid Dreaming Workout. It's in a few places. It's published in the [00:07:00] chapter that I wrote for sleep monsters and superheroes. That chapter was called Dragons, Angels, and Rites of Passage, the Universal Language of Children's Dreams. And toward the end, I outline this lucid dreamer workout.

And essentially, it's also in Dreamer's Powerful Tiger, in a different way. It's woven in. Because this is where I learned about this exercise, was through my mentor, the late Clara Stewart Flagg. And so it really helps people who are trying to learn lucid dreaming, no matter how old you are, as long as you're old enough to understand it and try it, it can work for you.

So the way this exercise, this workout, exercise, it's kind of like, Before you go to sleep, you know how people talk about dream incubation for lucid dreaming. So this is kind of, it's not really a dream incubation, it's more of an exercise. So you close your eyes and you imagine that you're standing at the top of a beautiful cliff [00:08:00] overlooking a beautiful, uh, landscape and just you can feel, you know, the soft, warm wind and you can see maybe the ocean and you feel the earth under your bare feet at the top of the cliff.

Oh, and actually sometimes I reverse this where you're at the bottom of the cliff, depending on how old you are, because with young children, I don't want to start at the top. Okay. So let's put you at the bottom of the cliff. You feel the earth under your feet. And you levitate up, up, up, up to the top of the cliff.

And then you feel your feet on the earth. And you turn around and you face and you see that beautiful landscape. And then you gently step off the cliff and float down, down, down, down, down. And you land gently and you feel your feet on the earth again. Feel your feet on the earth. Turn around, face the cliff, levitate up, and you just keep repeating this cycle where you're levitating, and you're jumping off, and you're landing gently.

So this [00:09:00] exercise, what do you think? What do you think this is doing? 

Amina: Yeah, I think it's a great visualization for just kind of getting into that hypnagogic dream state. Yeah, 

Dr. Angel Morgan: it is doing that. It's, it's preparing you for that. And it's also preparing people for the different laws of physics are different.

You can fly in a dream. If you go off of a cliff, you're not going to crash. And, you know, necessarily. I mean, some dreams that's part of the story, but it helps teach Children and adults and anyone learning about lucid dreaming. It gives you that practice of moving in the dream space so that you can go places and then also grounding in between, because that's something that a lot of young people do.

And I've noticed this over the past couple of decades, especially lucid dreaming has gotten more popular. And a lot of people really want to do it and they want to have these crazy experiences. And, and it's [00:10:00] great. That's a great first way to get into lucid dreaming. It's like the Dalai Lama says. Well, if you get into practicing compassion out of selfish reasons, you know, oh, it makes you feel good to be compassionate.

That's a great way to get started, but that gets old very fast, and then you, you go deeper and deeper. So, with lucid dreaming, The appeal is often, oh, I can do anything I want. I can have sex with whoever I want. I can eat whatever I want. I can fly wherever I want. And so the grounding of the feet on the earth in between these gravitational Occasional experiences where you're levitating and where you're falling is very grounding for the individual so that something that I learned training with Clara Stewart Flagg, who was the widow of Kilton Stewart, who had studied with the Senoi Temiar in Malaysia.

Is that wherever you go in a dream, she would say, well, always land on the ground and [00:11:00] feel your feet on the ground and look around and see what's happening. See what's there, interact with it, make choices. It's not all about escaping, right? It's not all about just leaving and whatever isn't pleasant or whatever isn't real, you know, oh, I just want to have this fantasy.

So anyway. It's a good way to get started. But then after a while, most people on their lucid dreaming journey will feel tired of that. And they'll, they'll look for something more meaningful in the experience. 

Amina: Yeah, that makes so much sense, actually, the way you describe it, um, how it's good giving people, you know, like foundational skills for being inside the dream.

And, you know, I kind of went through that as well, where I would just, you know, from whatever was going on in the dream. And I kind of trained myself to just stay there and be more present and interact with the dream space. And that really did like change the course of my lucid dream. So even though I've been lucid dreaming since I was a child, they've evolved a lot over time and gotten more, you know, [00:12:00] profound and more therapeutic over the years.

So that's really interesting. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: When you were a child and you were lucid dreaming, did you have someone Guiding you or or teaching you or was it just something? Yeah. What was that like for you? 

Amina: Yeah, you know like surprisingly I didn't really I found out later that my dad and my brother are also lucid dreamers Once I got into talking about it and passionate about it, but no, I just kind of figured it out on my own I had nightmares and I became lucid and I would just wake myself up like oh, this is a dream and the dream For years, and then in high school, I was always interested in psychology and, you know, kind of the metaphysical aspects of, you know, life.

So I kind of had more just interesting experiences like sleep paralysis and, you know, these interesting liminal experiences that got me very curious about this kind of thing. So then, you know, once I got into the dreaming community and I started to induce lucid dreams and met other people that were into it, I was like, Oh, this is a thing.

Like this is a normal [00:13:00] thing that people talk about. And then that's when it really, really expanded for me. So I was always a natural, but the community really made a difference. And I do think like, if I had had my parents, Teaching me about lucid dreams. I can only imagine like the skills and knowledge. I would have learned earlier.

So yeah, that's why I think that's such an important thing. It's really cool, honestly. Um, so one thing about to lucid dreaming. So we talked about like, you know, how beginners can get into it. And as an advanced student, You know, experience lucid dreamer. Then now I have lucid dreamer friends and we try to often meet up in the dream space and do these little fun experiments and explore that theory.

And I know you do a lot of work with this kind of thing. And so I wanted to ask you, well, first, like, what's the difference between like a shared dream and a lucid dream? A mutual or mesh dream. I know there's a lot of different kinds of definitions out there. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Right. So there's this general category of collective dreaming, and there are a lot of different kinds of collective dreams.

Um, people sometimes get together and dream for healing. [00:14:00] They dream together for somebody who needs healing, for example, or they meet up, uh, they plan to meet up in a lucid dream, there's mutual dreaming and shared dreaming, and. Mutual dreaming is, let's say that you and I both had a dream and we're sharing our dreams and we realize, oh, that's a very similar theme.

Like my, my dream had some rain and yours had a rainbow and you know, there's some mutual elements. Or maybe I'm in a coffee house and you are in a coffee house, but there's nothing, you know, there's no evidence of real, that we were in the same dream, but there's some similar elements. So that's kind of mutual dreaming.

Shared dreaming tends to provide more evidence for the possibility that people are sharing a specific dreamscape. So, um, for example, I forget what year it was. I want to say 2013, maybe, um, the last year of the cyber dreaming conference that ISD used to have. And that's [00:15:00] PSI cyber dreaming. And Ed Kellogg asked me to be the target person for a mutual dreaming contest.

That's because I had been the sender for the dream telepathy contests for, since 2009. So it had been a few years and. Everyone kind of knew who I was. So it was easy to focus on me and find me in a dream. And so this small group of people, maybe there were a dozen of them. Actually, there might've been more than a dozen.

I don't remember maybe about 24 or 25 people doing this contest. And it's so amazing. Um, I'm going to just give this example because it really helps with the shared dreaming. So about nine people reported that there was a pool. And a party and it was nighttime and I reported that. So all of our independent dream reports that went to Ed Kellogg said these things.

So this is kind of okay. What's going on here? Are is that's definitely mutual dreaming. Was it shared dreaming? So the [00:16:00] evidence for the shared dreaming came from Maria Cernuto, who um, I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she, she has a Psy Dreaming group that she works with since then. And Maria and I knew each other.

We were doing some work together on a project elsewhere. And this often helps when people know each other already or have some kind of a connection already. So, in her dream report, and in my dream report, there were two very convincing elements. One was that we both saw a bald, tattooed man, like he was covered in tattoos, completely.

We both reported that. Secondly, we both reported that we were telling each other jokes and making each other laugh, and we couldn't look at each other because if we looked at each other, we would start laughing. Wow. That's very specific. Very specific. Yeah. So that is some strong evidence for a shared dream where we, that [00:17:00] we were there, wherever there is, which is another conversation.

And then, yeah, that we experienced that same. very specific phenomena. So she won. She won the contest. 

Amina: Yeah. Wow. That's incredible. And I've heard so many similar stories, not just through the IASD dream telepathy or side dreaming contest, but just in general through lucid dreamers of like, yeah, we had the same dream with very, very similar, if not identical.

You know, objects or environments. So that just blows my mind. Like, um, I know you have kind of changed the method over the years and the procedure. Is there like a certain way that you found that kind of makes this like replicable and like indisputable evidence, despite there still being a lot of skeptical theories out there?

Dr. Angel Morgan: I love your question. So I'm going to start with the first part of your question and then we'll lead up to replicability. Yes. So as I said, I had been the sender since 2009 through, I think it was 2017 was the last time I was a [00:18:00] sender for the ISD Dream Telepathy Contest, which were based on, um, Stanley Krippner and Montague Allman's experiments at Maimonides.

And so Dream Telepathy, essentially, um, I was supposed to be sending an image telepathically to hundreds of people around the world, not only at the, um, conference, but there were people who were participating online even back then. Right. Still participating online. And so when Bob Vandecastle taught me how to do, how to be a sender, that first year in 2009, the protocols were.

Very minimal for the sender. It was more like you could act it out or you could, you know, just stay up all night, essentially you, you need to remain conscious is the main thing. So my instructions were stay up all night, send the image. You're very exhausted. The next day you sleep all day because yeah, sleep [00:19:00] deprivation and people always, there were every year, there were always some good hits, but what happened with me is the, the image that I got was.

A space shuttle blasting off. Lots of smoke at night. And so I'm in my hotel room with this image and my task is to send it. I'm thinking, ugh, Bob said act it out. How am I going to act this out? So I'm literally jumping up and down in my hotel room and I'm like, this is ridiculous. So intuitively, I just very organically Sat on my bed, in meditation, I cleared my mind, I could feel the energy of all the people tuning in to me, right?

Cause they're in sleep, and I could feel them in that realm. In my hotel room, it's a lot of energy. So, I'm like clearing my mind, so that I can just focus on the image, and the image is posted in my room. Um, and I am going from this meditation, I went into the image and it was like this merging [00:20:00] with the image kind of like in a meditation with say a tanka where you're focusing on a particular deity or something.

So merging with the space shuttle. And I blast, you know, in my lucid dreaming mind into space. So I felt this, like, out of body, and I'm in space with where the space shuttle went. Okay, so in this lucid dreaming space, all these other little rockets are shooting up from Earth that I can see, and it's all the people playing the contest wanting to see where I am.

And so all these things start happening. where I'm having some martial arts sparring with somebody playfully. There, it's a rock and roll space diner types, you know, floating in the astral plane. You know, it's just this really kind of fun, interesting lucid dream that I'm having with all these new people I just met at ISD.

And so then I get, you know, how sometimes when you get [00:21:00] really excited in a lucid dream, you You wake up, right? But I'm a practiced, experienced lucid dreamer, so I was like, this is exciting and I want to write this down. So I wrote it down in my hotel room and then I cleared my mind again, went back into meditation and then into another lucid dream, picking up where I left off.

And I went through this cycle 12 times throughout the night. And what that did is it created more data. Then the dream reports that were going to be collected later, because now we had everyone who's participating. We had their dream reports, but now we had my lucid dream reports to compare the dreams and to see, is there evidence for side dreaming that's going on and side dream.

So there was evidence. There was a lot of evidence. There was evidence for, there was one very strong precognitive dream that would have won, but it, she had had the dream two days before I sent, but it was spot on the [00:22:00] image, everything. Um, and there were other dream reports. Someone saw me, uh, sparring with somebody playfully doing martial arts, and I had a samurai sword.

Someone else saw me scattering seeds and there were things that were very, you know, very good, strong evidence for shared dreaming. The next year, it was eight cycles that I did. So between 12 and eight, but this protocol that I had done was not part of the original protocol. And my rationalization of it was, well, lucid dreaming.

In my lucid dreaming and in my meditation, even though I'm moving through these different states of consciousness, I'm conscious, so I'm not unconscious. So developing this, what I ended up calling it in the many worlds of lucid dreaming three, which was a couple of years ago, I believe I wrote it up and it's called the lucid dreaming three.

sender effect, the LDSE. And so this protocol [00:23:00] is something that in my experience and in the people who I worked with, Bob Vandecastle and Stanley Krippner and many other people who were involved, said that it generated a lot more juicy Psy hits. And potential evidence for shared dreaming. However, that is the most elusive, um, aspect of dream research to, to attempt to verify and, uh, validate, uh, scientifically.

So, it is at Sofia University something that I am working on with students. And we are doing, uh, some dream research to attempt to replicate what I did all those years. 

Amina: Oh, that's, that's really, really exciting. I'm excited to see how that progresses. Cause I definitely think it's like a great area of research and it's just so new, I guess, maybe not to you, but to the world, I guess.

So this is really fascinating to me, this concept of sending [00:24:00] and receiving. So do you think that having one person as the sender and people trying to, you know, tune into that versus maybe like a buddy system where two people try to meet up? Do you feel like there would be any differences in that? Um, give me an example.

Let's say me and you are both lucid dreamers, well we are, and you know, we have a keyword. So we're both trying to send to each other and like get each other's target image or something like that. I mean, I guess there's so many different ways to do it. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Oh, okay. So, what you're bringing up reminds me. That there is a difference between dream clairvoyance and dream telepathy.

Dream clairvoyance, dream telepathy, and shared dreaming. Okay, so there's three kind of phenomena that we're talking about. So shared dreaming is let's meet up in a dream. Dream telepathy is sending an image to or sending a thought or an image or a concept to one or more people while they're sleeping.

And then, Dream [00:25:00] clairvoyance is it's like remote viewing like can you see something that is somewhere else? Other than where you are while you're dreaming 

Amina: gotcha. Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense So it seems like the dream telepathy category You don't necessarily need to be lucid to be able to have a dream about the target image Whereas the other ones are more clear Consciously directed, it seems.

Okay. Yeah. It makes sense. That is really, really interesting to me. And it's something that, you know, I hope to see, you know, more research expanding on in the future. What technology and resources do you think, or would you like to see in the future for the direction of this field of research? 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Okay. So technology, hold that thought.

Let's put a pin in that. Cause I want to pick up on something just before that we were talking about the differences between the different. uh, phenomena. There is a book that I recommend for you and also if you ever decide to do the master's, wait, you have [00:26:00] a master's already? 

Amina: I have a master's, yes, and I was emailing you about trying to do the PhD, which I'm, in my state, I can't go to SOFIA, so I was thinking of doing the, the studies program, so I'm still kind of looking at my options.

Dr. Angel Morgan: Well, yes, the dream study certificate program, You can apply that as electives toward a master's or a Ph. D. So that's, that would be a great place for you to start. There is a book that we work with called Extraordinary Dreams and How to Work with Them. And that is Stanley Krippner, Fareeba Bagsaron, and Andre Persia de Carvalho.

And it has, it covers 14 different kinds of extraordinary dreams and would really, um, add to the conversation that we're having when you do the dream study certificate, we can go deeper into that conversation. 

Amina: Oh, yeah, that would be great. Um, it's definitely something that I look forward to doing. So I'm sure that we'll be able to connect more on that.

Awesome. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Uh, and then the other question you asked was about technology, technology. So, uh, give me an [00:27:00] example. So I understand exactly what you're at. 

Amina: Yeah. Not necessarily just technology, but just kind of like, where do you see the future going? Just in general, like technology being one example, but you know, resources funding, like, you know, what is needed to do the type of research that you're doing?

Dr. Angel Morgan: First off, I feel very supported by Sofia university. Uh, and I'm very grateful to Sofia University for supporting the research that I'm doing. And, you know, it's not just about getting approval, which I have institutional review board approval for all of this research, but the excitement that's generated around it and the support in that way is really wonderful.

So around the type of research with the lucid dreaming sender effect and dream telepathy experiments, we're in a good spot right now. I don't know how to talk about funding on this podcast necessarily, but I think that there's a lot of possibility for, you know, depending on how the research goes, and I can't talk too much about it because it's [00:28:00] in progress right now, but definitely look forward to hearing those results and reading them at when they get published, because This is exciting, and I do agree with you, and you had said earlier, maybe not for me.

I know it is somewhat normalized in my experience, but I live in the world. I'm very aware, um, that it's not normalized in mainstream society, and that this really is something that is rather exciting, and that does open up possibilities, um, with how people can understand dreams and dreaming, and How important that part of our lives really is holistically, that it's not just this separate thing that happens at night.

It's it really is part of who we are. And so I'm very optimistic. I tend to be optimistic about the future. And this is speaking as someone who was president of the is. during the pandemic. So from 2019 to 2021, and, you know, things have been very intense and [00:29:00] transformative and challenging. And yet something about that transformation in the world has opened up this very interesting.

window in consciousness for helping people think about dreams, dream differently, circadian rhythms shifting because of rhythms shifting, the daily rhythm, the societal rhythm. And I, so I'm very, hopeful about our careers that we are in and how, um, how it's going to reach people. And as far as tech, the person to talk to about dream tech is Michelle Carr, my colleague.

She is really wonderful, um, in that area of knowledge. I tend to, one of my students wrote this in a discussion this week about, um, I have a love slash not love relationship with technology.

I like that a lot because I relate to that. I feel like there's a lot that [00:30:00] technology can do for us, but when it comes to dreaming in my experience, a dream tech feels like not my route to how to evolve our. Dreaming capacities, our lucid dreaming capacities, our spiritual, our holistic capacities don't require technology.

Now to do a podcast with Amina Mara, it requires some technology. So here we are, and it's, it's wonderful. So it has its place and its challenges. 

Amina: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that being where I'm at in the community. I love dreaming and I am so used to talking about dreams, but I find it very interesting.

Like you pointed out that around 2020, a lot of people started becoming just more interested in this kind of thing. exploring their inner worlds. I started my podcast in 2020, even though I had been dreaming for years. So it was a very transformational time. And so I think this is the beginning of, like you said, a very optimistic future in dream work research.

So that is very [00:31:00] exciting. Um, and I'm looking forward to seeing when all of your work is published so I can, you know, continue to share it and follow along. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Thank you. And you know, a lot of. A lot has been published already around what I was describing earlier. As far as not, not the lucid dreaming sender effect under that, but all of the studies at ISD, not all of them, but a good handful of them that led up to that have been published and they're on my website on my, there are links to them.

Amina: Yes, I saw a lot of publications there. I'll definitely link that. And I also was reading about Dream Bridge, which I'd love for you to tell me a little bit about. I know you have a creative background, which I also think is super interesting. So yeah, what is, what is Dream Bridge all about? Definitely 

Dr. Angel Morgan: my whole life.

There's, I've been a creative person and my first career was in theater, film and television. And I had my bachelor's degree from UCLA and in the theater, film and television. And also visual arts was my minor as [00:32:00] well. And I went to Idlewild Arts Academy. So before that, I have been a creative person and a dreamer.

So like these two lanes of creativity and dreaming have been happening in parallel, my whole biography. And then at a certain point, when I went to work on my PhD was when I went to work with Stanley Kripner at Saybrook. And Amadeo Giorgi and my godfather, Raul Omei, was the founder of Saberook, so I was drawn to that school at that time.

And working with Stanley, I shared my vision for how can I integrate, you know, dreams and creativity more. Into a program of dream education for all ages, and I had been actually since two, actually, that's not true. Before I went to work on my PhD when I was working on my master's thesis, 2000 to 2002, that was the first time I wrote about Dream Bridge.

I wrote an essay as part of [00:33:00] my thesis about this vision for a place . Now I was envisioning in physical space. Um, a center, a dream arts community center where all ages can come and learn dream arts and practice dream arts and share dream arts. And this led to my method, the dream bridge method, which is, um, You know, finding ways to express your creativity from DreamWork and then sharing it with others in community and, and later when I found ISD, you know, that supported that as well, because there's a lot of dream bridging going on at ISD, but they just don't call it that.

So it's, it's a way of describing. taking an experience during sleep and creatively expressing it in waking life and sharing that with others. That's like the full expression of what dream bridging is as a verb, right? And then I had this whole series of dreams of building, you know, like this going back and forth [00:34:00] between creating something and then sleeping on it and then getting more information.

And then, you know, so going back and forth and I ended up creating this floor plan for the Dream Arts Center, and then I, you know, zero architectural background, but I made this model and talked about it at the Rogue Valley Metaphysical Library here, and that's where I met Ed Kellogg, and so this, this work led to establishing DreamBridge here in Ashland, Oregon, teaching workshops, courses, and individual consultations and all kinds of work around the method of dream bridge.

Amina: I love that. Yeah, that name is makes so much sense now that you explain it because like bridging the dream and the waking. That's really cool. I love seeing people that create art and bring things to life from their dreams. I do a little bit of that myself. I'm not like a professional artist, but I've always been like creative.

I've done graphic design. So sometimes I Dream [00:35:00] something really beautiful and like I just kind of honor the dream by painting it or doodling or something. Yeah, 

Dr. Angel Morgan: honoring the dream or acting on the dream. We've heard this is in the literature. People have used that language. So it's just another way of talking about that.

And also in the dream bridge logo, you'll see this. This infinity, this Lemniscate and it goes from waking consciousness to dreaming consciousness and it's a continuum. It just goes back and forth. So it's that weaving of, okay, so now it actually goes both directions. So let's say you've bridged something into the world and you've shared it with others and then how does that weave back into your dream world?

Because it both worlds influence each other. And that goes back to the Sonoy inspired dream work, right? 

Amina: Yes. I love that. Yeah. Very true. Well, this has been amazing. Like we touched on a lot of interesting topics that I wanted to ask you about. And did you have any questions or anything else that you wanted to talk about?

Dr. Angel Morgan: Yes. Well, first I want to say thank you [00:36:00] for creating a podcast that is reaching, you know, the younger generations. I think it's really important that young people in the world who are discovering lucid dreaming are getting more information and talking about the importance of what we've discovered is important and why it's important.

And I guess I'm curious, uh, what is the, what are the biggest questions that you feel younger? Dreamers are asking these days 

Amina: Yeah, you know that's such a good question because I really am very much online and get a lot of social media comments and things like that and I see there's kind of two sides of things.

There's like the beginner sides of things which are people just Asking, like, how do I get started? Like, what does this mean? Like, it's a lot of analysis things, too. Like, oh, I dreamt of this. Like, what does it mean? People just starting to get curious about their dreams. Um, and then there's the more advanced lucid dreamer side of, like, people that have been dreaming, but maybe they're just kind of curious.

And those are more of, like, the [00:37:00] metaphysical side of questions. Like, you know, what does it mean? Is dreaming related to remote viewing and astral projection and, like, all these things? Things we talked about that are similar out of body experiences. So a lot of people just trying to make sense of their experiences and kind of find community.

So, yeah, I think it's interesting and important to keep talking about these things. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: I am very much in my happy place at Sofia University with the dream study certificate. It's a dream come true. Not to be cheesy, but it really it really is such a wonderful experience for me. After all I've been through.

In my life with dreams and creativity and, and academia to be directing this dream studies program where a lot of my students are my age or older, but most of them are younger, you know, millennial and Gen Z students. So I've got a lot of students coming through the dream study certificate program, asking the same kind of questions that you [00:38:00] just mentioned.

And it is so wonderful. I just really treasure the honor. And privileged to be teaching and working with people around these topics. What was your experience like coming to your first ISD conference in Ashland last time? 

Amina: Oh my god, it was life changing, to say the least. And I didn't even of course get to see everything.

Presentation or everything, but just being in that environment, being around people that are like taking this seriously and excited and have these passions like it was really like motivating for me, um, and inspiring for me. So it really is life changing. And that was my first one, even though I've heard of ISD before.

And I told myself, like, I'm so determined to go every year. And then when I found out it was in Europe, I was like, Oh, that's going to be really hard. But I made it happen. So yeah, and I'll be doing a lucid dreaming morning group as well. So that'll be fun. 

Dr. Angel Morgan: Fantastic. I will be doing a lucid dream drama workshop, which I also did [00:39:00] in Ashland.

And I invite you if you are able to make it to that. It's um, yeah. And that's so essentially, that's some dream psycho drama. That is connected to lucid dreaming and I talked about how how it's connected to lucid dreaming. 

Amina: Awesome. Yeah, I'll definitely check it out So where can people find you like your website or anything else that you have to share that you just want to promote?

Dr. Angel Morgan: the dreambridge. com and that's all one word the dreambridge. com is My website and there are links there also to Sofia University, but if you go to Sofia edu And there's, uh, look for on the homepage there, kind of toward the top left, there's a link that goes right to the Dreams Studies Certificate Program.

Oh, and one more, asdreams. org for IASD. 

Amina: Of course, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I'll throw all those links in there so people can access them easily. But yeah, it's been amazing talking to you and I really appreciate you taking the time to come chat with me. And for all the [00:40:00] listeners that made it this far to the end, as always, I love you so much.

Thank you for listening. Please support by leaving a review on Spotify, Apple podcasts. Google or whatever platform you're on it only takes a couple seconds But it has a huge huge impact and be sure to follow on social media Share with your friends if you want to learn more check out the dreamworldpodcast.

com I also have an online course that you can get for less than 15 I will personally help you learn how to lose a dream and I will make it my mission So be sure to check us out and sweet dreams