Unlocking the Secrets to Hitting a Golf Ball Farther with 6-Time World Champion Jason Zubak

Unlock the secrets behind hitting a golf ball farther than ever before with our special guest, six-time world champion Jason Zubak, famously known as Golfzilla. Jason's journey from a career in pharmacy to dominating the long drive circuit is nothing short of inspiring. We pull back the curtain on his early experiences and natural talent for power movements, as well as dissect the role of cutting-edge technologies like ground reaction forces that have revolutionized the sport.

This episode goes beyond just the mechanics of a powerful golf swing. We dive into the complexities of using advanced tools like force plates and kinematic data to make meaningful improvements in performance. You'll hear firsthand accounts of working with top golfers, including Padraig Harrington, and the trials of translating better data into better performance. We shed light on how misconceptions about the golf swing can lead to suboptimal performance and how understanding face-to-path relationships and kinematic sequencing can elevate your game.

But that's not all—equipment optimization is also on the table. We explore the latest in shaft technology, innovative fitting techniques, and the impact of personalized coaching strategies. Hear anecdotes from long drive champions Kyle Berkshire and Jamie Sadlowski, and insights from pros like Mike Weir and Victor Hovland. Whether you're interested in tweaking your equipment for better performance or understanding the distinct swings required for different aspects of golf, this episode offers a comprehensive guide to improving your golf game from every angle.

Chapters

• 0:03 Evolution of Long Drive Golf
• 14:06 Improving Golf Swing Performance and Technique
• 20:33 Clarifying Pressure and Mass in Golf
• 30:18 Advancing Golf Instruction and Technology
• 45:14 Understanding Golf Equipment Optimization
• 53:04 Shaft Flex and Iron Innovation
• 1:02:52 Advancements in Golf Equipment Technology
• 1:15:09 Maximizing Golf Club Performance and Function
• 1:23:46 Enhancing Golf Performance Through Equipment Optimization
• 1:37:11 Creating Golf Strategies With Player Input

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

like I said, I'm gonna read us in real quick. Um, I'll throw it to you and then we'll just kind of let it rip man, and kind of whatever you want to talk about. I'm game with uh. So yeah, there's like no holds barred, but I'm not trying to trap you, so you're okay, you there?

Speaker 2: 0:24

I lose you, I hear you. There you go yeah.

Speaker 1: 0:36

There we go, All right cool. So, you good.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Yep, are you on Wi-Fi or are you plugged into Ethernet?

Speaker 1: 0:42

I'm on Wi-Fi, but I should be pretty good. It generally is pretty good for this. Let me do one thing real quick though.

Speaker 2: 0:50

On your feed. It's at low bandwidth, oh nice. Are you on cable or are you on, I guess, fiber optic, probably where you're at right?

Speaker 1: 1:01

Yeah, it's fiber Crap. Hopefully it will be okay. Yeah, it's recording right now, so we're good. Okay, yeah, we'll let it rip, all right.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Hello and welcome to another episode of the measured golf podcast, where we are very fortunate because it's a new season, which means new guests. Fortunately for us, we have met a few people over the past couple of years that have been kind enough to come onto the podcast with us, and one of the people that I thought was the most interesting people that I didn't expect to be so interesting was none other than one Jason Zubak. You better know him as Golfzilla because when it comes to the World Long Drive and professional long drive championships, jason is no stranger to winning those winning five in the open division, one in the master's division, making him a six-time world champion. And not only can he hit a golf ball far, but he's like turned into this guy who's like really interested in how he does it and like that's what I'm super interested in. So I met Jason via Smart2Move. He's doing amazing stuff with them and trying to help them understand application from his point of view, and I think he really has a lot to bring to the table.

Speaker 1: 2:15

So, without further ado, none other than Golfzilla himself, jason Zubak. Jason, how the heck are you buddy?

Speaker 2: 2:21

I'm good, Michael, it's great to be with you and thank you very much. It's certainly an honor and a pleasure to be here and hopefully I could share some fairly interesting things, maybe some insightful things, that I've learned through my 30 years in competing in long drive and trying to be the best in the world at what I do.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Yeah, I mean, that's the fun thing, man. It's like no stone unturned and you know we're we're diving into a world of ground reaction forces and you know looking at things that can't be seen with the naked eye. So you know there's a lot of new information there. But you know, before we get into maybe all the geeky ground reaction for stuff, you know, here's what I'm curious, because I know you're always learning what's the last thing that you kind of picked up and were like you know what? That's pretty good Like. What's the last thing that made you sit back and go like you know what? Like I wish I would have known that back in my competition days.

Speaker 2: 3:15

It's an interesting evolution, michael, like through the years. As you know, I'm 54 years old. I wouldn't say I was late to long drive, but I started, you know kind of when I was about 20, you know kind of 26. After I finished my educational background, I achieved a degree in pharmacy. So I practiced as a pharmacist for a number of years. Throughout my junior amateur days I played at a quite a quite a high level and was relatively accomplished.

Speaker 2: 3:46

And then I was trying to play professionally a little bit while I was practicing pharmacy full-time and, as you know, um, at at any element of the professional level and and you know I'm speaking professional Canadian tour, um, you know it's been renamed a few different times, but the Canadian tour at the time. And, uh, you know it's been renamed a few different times, but the Canadian Tour at the time. And you know it was tough. And the way I got started was I was playing in a Monday qualifier. I hit a you know I was dry. I've always driven the golf ball well and I've always endeavored to hit it as far as humanly possible and one of the guys I was playing with said hey, like you know listen, uh, um, you should try this long drive thing, right, and I'm like I've seen it before. But you know I'm trying to play, you know I'm not just trying to hit it far, but whatever. But anyway, uh, I sort of digress.

Speaker 1: 4:39

You're not wrong though, because it was kind of like a sideshow back then Right, like it wasn't what it became to be when, like you were out there and competing. But like back in the day, like if you were a serious golfer, like you never even ventured the thought of doing what Bryson did and trying to do both at the same time, like that's a new thing, like what you're talking about is very typical, for back then.

Speaker 2: 5:00

Right, you know I was trying to play well, something I always did well, hit it far. And all these power movements in sport I always gravitated to, whether it be running the fastest 100 meter, hitting a baseball as far as I could, throwing it as fast as I could, shooting a hockey puck, you know, through the net, through the plexiglass, you know, through the net, through the plexiglass. You know all these, you know these power aspects of sports. I tried to. You know I tried to kick a soccer ball the length of the soccer field. You know all these things and you know golf was no different and hitting it off the tee was. You know it got me in trouble playing right, because you can't, you know you can't just go after everything. It's something I like to do, but to the detriment of my life.

Speaker 1: 5:45

I mean you can? Well, you can.

Speaker 2: 5:47

Yeah, but I guess to your question, back then we didn't have this element of all this information at our fingertips, the internet right, we didn't have. You know you could research anything you want to, although you have to wade through all the you know, maybe not so good information and and and really pick out the pertinent, good quality information. And that's why experts exist, like yourself, uh, like myself that you know are credible sources of information. We'll talk about that later. But back then it was, you know, it was kind of trial and error, like you grab this driver, see how far you hit it. We didn't have track man right To analyze. You know launch angles, spin rates, exit velocity, you know things like that. We didn't. You know we had.

Speaker 1: 6:43

Did you have custom equipment back then, or were you guys just playing retail stuff as well?

Speaker 2: 6:47

Well, a lot of retail. Like the way I started was, you know, callaway, great big Bertha, 6.5-degree stock shaft. There was another driver, cubic Balance. I don't know if you remember that one. It was the first groveless driver, so there was no grooves in the face. That one, it was the first groveless driver, so there was no grooves in the face, and their theory was the reduction in reduction of spin which you know, you know, perhaps not with the lower lofted clubs, it's that important, but again, it's, you know it's. It's uh, uh, a very, you know, kind of valid way to go like a stock cubic balance.

Speaker 2: 7:21

Driver langertanger was another one, one of the metal wood manufacturers. Then, upon more exposure to the sport, I saw guys were using, you know, customized, you know they had tailor-made heads that were lower than what you can buy at the retail at that time, like the tour, the burner was only seven degrees but guys were bending heads or getting heads from tailor-made that were lower, longer shafts. I'd never seen a longer shaft than what was in the rack at the at the pro shop and I, you know so, seeing some of these guys with, uh, you know, at that time, total length of the club was 45 inches, um, you know, guys with you know 48, 50, 55, 60 inch, 65 inch, and I I'd never seen this before. So I'm like, oh, this is interesting, so, but again, it was trial and error, we didn't have all this technology. And you know, getting to your your question, that you know what you know, had you know, probably, you know the force play technology has been not a game. You know it's a tool in our toolbox and I think it's a robust tool, right, and but understanding, you know, these forces at that ground, foot interface, right, and their implication on creating movement in the golf swing, right, it's um, a lot of these tools can make things really easy, like track man, for instance.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Right, like, if I'm, I always say to the guys, you know, we had TrackMan back, you know, in the late, you know, mid 80s, you took your shag bag of balls, you went and hit them on the first hole and you went and tracked it down. There's your TrackMan, you are the TrackMan, right. And then you know I've got volumes where that's how I had to do it because we had, we didn't have the sophisticated technology where, okay, this driver, you know 46 inches, five degrees loft, you know, 6.5 degree Callaway, great big Bertha. You know, carry 365 yards rolled out to 385. Okay, here's the Taylor Bay burner at 48 inches. Here's what it did. I have volumes of this where I, you know, the ultimate, or the gold standard I always say is finding your golf ball. You know, track man, flight scope, gc quad, you name it. They're great tools to have but, again, you know, finding our golf ball is the gold standard. And but you know, to your question, I think you know some of the. You know the force play technology and that's what the guys are using now to really, you know it's an emergent technology and you know, you're an expert in this and you've been, you've been at it a significant amount of time. And you know some of the guys that led the way, like Mike Adams. You know, when adopting this force play technology but, man, it can make things really interesting.

Speaker 2: 10:09

On the time conservation side of things, are we doing the right things at the right time with the right magnitude? There's a whole bunch of parameters, as I've discussed before, but it's one of those tools that tells us how things are happening. We've got this whole basket of tools to tell us what's happening right. We have our eyes and you know. For example, a player asked me like who, you know who, who's got the best eye? And I'm like, well, you know, butch has a really good eye, like he's almost like a, like a track man, you know 3d motion capture, a force plate, from what he sees and he processes in his mind um, but you know, we, we have our eyes to tell us what's happening.

Speaker 2: 10:50

We have, you know, uh, I know you use a few different tools on the motion capture. We've got a whole bunch of tools like that the magnetic resonance. We've got markerless motion capture. Now we've got things like gears with the infrared 3d motion capture technology. This is another robust tool to tell us what's happening. But we don't have a whole bunch of tools to tell us what. You know, the you know like how things are happening right and like how is this motion created right? So again, yeah, I think that's, you know, the force bike technology has been, you know, fairly significant and you and I are in that direction. We see the value in it and it's interesting because there's a lot of people that deny that forces occur at the ground level.

Speaker 1: 11:42

Yeah, but the good news for us is that they're out of business really quick because, like, we can help people make sizable change very quickly and they spend, you know, months, if not years, fiddling about trying to make it happen. And like, honestly, like I don't even waste my time with the people who want to refute what we're measuring, because it's a measurement and like it is what it is. I'm not saying that good, good ground force data makes a good golfer. That's not true, but it certainly helps. I wouldn't say it hurts in any way. I'm, I know lots of golfers who are very, very good players but also don't move in a very efficient way and don't use the ground very well, and they're guys that typically don't make as much speed as the guys that they're competing against on tour. So, to your point, man, it's like track man tells us about what the club does and about what the ball does, and 3d motion capture tells us about what the joint segments do, and then force plates tell us about the ground reaction forces. But at the end of the day, what I really want to know is like, hey, you know what was your intent and what happened and what's the difference, why you know, like that's at the end of the day, what are we trying to solve for? And I think you do a good job of that because you know you guys figured this stuff out without the tools.

Speaker 1: 12:54

And I was talking and doing another episode of this podcast with another great coach and we were kind of talking about this very thing.

Speaker 1: 13:02

But you guys were athletic enough to figure this out with bad technology, that wasn't custom, and you didn't have the numbers and you had to dig it out of the dirt and like my hat's off because you guys, like were good enough to figure it out and overcome and achieve and I'm kind of this guy that played OK but never really had the tools and the skill set to become like great without knowing exactly how to do it.

Speaker 1: 13:27

So what I had to do is I had to like learn it, the like ins and outs of it from like the measuring everything every different way, and then kind of like teach myself how to do the things, understanding the concept better and like that's where I think like things go terribly amiss with this is like I don't think you're saying ground reaction forces are the be all, end all. I'm not saying they're the be all, end all, but man, it sure is nice because I can see a ball fly and I can see a human move, but I can't see, no matter how hard I try, the pressures, forces and torques that are kind of making a lot of that stuff happen.

Speaker 2: 14:02

Absolutely, michael. Yeah, totally. I view everything as a tool in our toolbox. Right, and the more tools that we have, I think you know the more tools we have can be better. You have to know how to use them effectively, right, and uh, uh. But I think you know, like the, they're just so calm. I mean it's it's not.

Speaker 1: 14:21

I get like the they're just so calm. I mean, it's, it's not. I get like the problem that I think really exists is that everybody's selling uh hey, I can make you scotty shuffler by this afternoon. And like we both know that that's not true. But people fall for the trap because they hear it enough times. And like what we both understand probably better than a lot of people would is that when you change something in your golf swing, whatever you think it is right, when you make a change like, you have to like really write a new program within your nervous system, which is like going to take repetition and time and firing across that muscle to like really get it to happen under any kind of strength. And it's like it's just change takes time.

Speaker 1: 15:05

And what I love about the force plates like I go down rabbit holes like you wouldn't believe. I can't imagine what you're like, because back in the day that's all you could do is go down the rabbit hole and find out what was there. But like now you can like try a little experiment and be like hey wonder if I try to like increase my impulse this way, what happens? And like now, instead of guessing and thinking you did it when you didn't change a thing. You can actually, like, measure it, look at it objectively and then go, hey, that either does the, does it make the ball do this or doesn't it.

Speaker 1: 15:34

And at the end of the day, like, if you're trying to use any of these tools and it doesn't equate to changing the ball flight in the desired way of the person that you're trying to help, it doesn't matter anyway. Like just because, like, you make graphs better, like hey, did they play better? Like that's what I want to know. Like I don't really care that we made graphs better, I want to know did the player play better? Did they feel more confident? And, more importantly, can they back it up day to day, week to week, month to month?

Speaker 2: 16:00

Yeah, no, that's a. That's a great point. I was going to bring that up. I had that on my list to uh, uh, to discuss in. You know, some people, when they first get into the, you know the force plates and such, or even the kinematic data that we get from whatever system, right, well, we're looking at, we're looking at rotational velocities of the pelvis, the thorax, the arm, at, we're looking at rotational velocities of the pelvis, the thorax, the arm, the hand or the club, whatever, right, and and in the force plates, we're looking at, you know, a variety of graphs, right, and this is a great example.

Speaker 2: 16:35

I, I was, you know, working with podrick harrington. Uh, we, we had one of the champions tour events here a little more than two weeks ago called the Rogers Charity Classic, and we were supposed to work on Monday after the round, but after the tournament concluded, but he changed his flight. Anyway, you know, padraig, he's a very hard worker, very intelligent, obviously very accomplished, world Golf Hall of Famer. But he had the lead after the third hole kind of gave it up and the rest of the day was sort of a wash. And you know, I said, hey, this is an ideal. If you want to, you know I'll fly and meet you somewhere, but you know you're here now, if you've, if you're up to it. And we put in three hours of work after the round, after you know he had the lead and kind of didn't, you know, bring that win to fruition. But again, you know we worked on, you know very specific things that he wanted to work on. But you know I made the graphs look better, but then it wasn't translating right.

Speaker 2: 17:37

So, to your point, we can make the graphs look better, but we need to. You know, ultimately it's the ball in the air. What does the ball do? Right, we need to influence that. Is it better? Are we, are we, you know, making cleaner contact? Is it achieving the things that the player wants to achieve to help them to play better? You know there's a lot of different vectors, but just to play better, what have you? So eventually I was able to get what was the beneficial aspect of our interventions to the club right. So, you know, getting, you know all this stuff that we're doing, improving graphs and such but we've got to get it to the club and eventually get it to the ball. So we were able to do that. But again, a lot of guys. You know, hey, you know, I improved this guy's vertical. Uh, you know, you know, 50%. Okay, what happened? Well, we didn't do anything. Okay, well, that didn't matter, right.

Speaker 2: 18:33

So, let's, let's, uh, you know, let's, you know, please, we need to. You'll be conscious of that end result and it's the golf ball where it goes, how it flies. You know all these things, and is it making a positive change with respect to that? Um and?

Speaker 1: 18:51

I get. I get a fair amount of like phone stuffed in my face, like I'm just recognizable enough in golf circles to where, like, everybody loves to stick a phone in my face and go, hey, what do you think of my swing man, what should I change? And I'm like dude, I don't know. And they're like what do you mean? You don't know. And I'm like, well, first off, like what's wrong? Like tell me about what's wrong. And like I had, you know, a few lessons this morning and I had a guy that came in and you know I asked that question, no-transcript, right. So at the end of the day, like the only reason people care about any of this force plate stuff is because they think it will translate to hitting the ball closer to the hole and shooting lower scores. And it doesn't always work that way. But like that's what they're after. So, long story short, I think that you have to help them understand like, hey, the club is moving left or the club is moving right, and you can talk about club path or swing, whatever you want to reference, I don't care. But like you got to get golfers to realize they don't swing the club straight. Most golfers do not swing the club with a zero club path, just like playing golf. They just don't. And what they don't realize is that they have to match a face to the direction they swing a club. And this is what kills me the most.

Speaker 1: 20:33

Jason, I get so much credit for helping people gain speed. It's crazy. I've had people say the nicest things because I legitimately can help people gain 10 to 15 miles an hour club speed, very, very quickly. It's not hard to do. However, it's not because of what I do with the ground reaction forces.

Speaker 1: 20:49

It's what I do with the face to path relationship, because not one golfer ever is going to swing hard at a golf ball when they think the face is shut at impact, right? Not one golfer is ever going to try to hit one hard with a face that's shut at impact, because we all know what's coming and that's why everybody sacrifices their ground reaction forces and their kinematic values and the sequencing and everything to try to get the face back open, because we can't play golf with a shut face. The ball doesn't get in the air. So at the end of the day, brother, like if you can't help people conceptually understand that and then tie the other things to it and help it make a more complete holistic picture for them. Like it's just not even worth the time of showing them that stuff, because if you're not going to get them to buy into why they have to change these certain movements, they're just not going to change, like they don't care what their impulse or their vertical force percentage is, you know like they just don't.

Speaker 2: 21:49

Yeah, no, I, I totally agree the uh, you know that, uh, you know, you know that face to path relationship is extraordinarily important, right, obviously, you know. You know you know it's interesting cause. You know people always say, okay, that's what dictates our axis, tilt, that's what you know dictates direction, you know that, you know it does so many things Right and, um, you know, once we clean that up, like face, you know obviously both of those factors are important. But again, you know being able to understand where the face is in space and time right Is is monumentally important to playing better golf. Right, I, I had a, you know like a fellow that just started, you know kind of got back to golf and just understanding, you know, like you know it was, it was quite astonishing where you know he was doing it with athletic ability.

Speaker 2: 22:52

But then just just that understanding of you know what you know dictates, you know direction, what dictates curvature, you know obviously you know center of face contact is is going to overwhelm, you know most things if it's very poor right with gear effect. But again, you know understanding those relationships. And then you know kind of back, you know walking it back with. You know these other tools that we have to, you know, I guess you know really hammer home or improve upon. You know just the this very fundamental aspect.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Yeah, I mean it's. I don't think that, generally speaking, I really feel strongly that we're not using force plates to create new information. I think we're using force plates to better understand the information that's already out there, because if you search long enough on YouTube or Instagram, you're going to find whatever you want to hear about the golf swing. There's somebody saying it, I promise. I mean you've sent me some doozies in the past on Instagram. So like we know that there's crazy stuff out there, but you know, kind of going back to what you were saying earlier, right, like being able to filter that information and understand, like what's usable versus what isn't, and does it come from a credible source of information? Like those are like really paramount, and like buying into what you're learning.

Speaker 1: 24:16

So, at the end of the day, like if, if you don't, like if I take a YouTube tip and I go to the local driving range and I try it and it doesn't immediately produce a better ball flight, I don't, I don't buy that tip anymore. Like I think that tip doesn't work. So like, at the end of the day, like we have to create a ball flight that matches the intent of the golfer. And the problem is is like most people would just like set up to a golf ball lined up with the face exactly straight at the target, and then like think it's railroad tracks or whatever they tend to believe, and then they just swing away at it and like I always ask golfers, I'm like how many shots on the golf course do you hit that fly perfectly straight from end to end, and they're like, um, none.

Speaker 1: 24:59

And I'm like okay, like cool gotcha. So like, why do we keep aiming the face? Like we we're going to have zero curvature on the golf ball and like it's just amazing to me, like, as intricate as we want to make it, jason, like, and we can, and I can take something very simple like talking about, you know, getting the face to path relationship to where the face isn't shut to create more speed. I can make that vastly more complex and talk about vertical forces and breaking forces and how we use that to act upon the golf club.

Speaker 1: 25:31

But we're taking this information that we're finding and finding that the guys that came before us the Mike Adams, like you mentioned, mike is the guy who, like, taught me everything I know about force plates in the beginning.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Like he was the guy that was my fire hose and I was just fortunate enough to be there at the time and get as much information from him and DA Tischler and Terry rolls and all those great guys James lights was another one that was like critical to me early on. Uh, learned a ton from James. Um, but, like the these, what we're trying to do, that the people that are in the force plate space who are contributing to the messaging, like all we're trying to do is go hey, believe it or not, these guys like back in the day they had way more right than they had wrong. But if you actually take what we've learned now and add that with what they had holy smokes, man, like it opens up like a whole can of worms and like this gets way easier. But when we choose to like bury our head in the sand and pretend like gravity's not a real thing and ground reaction forces don't exist, like dude it's, it's tough to play golf that way right, yeah, no, it's.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Uh, you know we fought that, fight you and I. You know it's interesting. Um, you know it's interesting that people I don't know if it's they don't believe it, but they want to be. Can I tell you what I think?

Speaker 1: 26:52

it is and I honestly tell you what I think it is and tell I know I sound like I got a smart ass tone right now, but like I, I promise I'm not trying to be like weird. I honestly think this is the problem with our industry. Our industry, because it is so based in kinematic qualities, is incapable of separating pressure from mass. The minute you start talking about pressure moving around, they start moving their spine around. No, no, no, we're not talking about moving mass around, we're talking about pressure and like it's. It's comical to me at how many people are like yeah, and they, they like.

Speaker 1: 27:30

My favorite example of this is like I want I get so many like people sending me videos, want help, and they're trying to do the Mayo thing Right. And the Mayo thing isn't a thing. The Mayo thing is just like hey, like it's impossible to hit one fat if you're steep, because low points in front of the ball, not behind it, right. So like he's got a good point there. If you hit it fat a lot, maybe quit trying to be shallow and try steep, because that might actually work out for you.

Speaker 1: 27:56

So the thing is is when you look at what Joe is saying there, he's talking really about getting pressure left and that's what he demonstrates. And that's what he shows and, yes, I understand that you see people's heads go left, but they go left, they don't start left and stay left video. They've got all of their mass Jason stacked over top their lead side and then they wonder why they just keep knife in the ground because they can't move low, point right. Because they've got pressure stacked on the left side but no pivot and now we create way too much lean into the ball. So it's just like when people hear pressure, they think mass, and when they hear mass, they think pressure. And we've got to do a better job as an industry, like clarifying, I think, what we're talking about, because it does.

Speaker 2: 28:44

It confuses the hell out of everybody right, yeah, no, I, that's a great point the, you know, just the, I 100 agree that you know, with more people actually understanding the uhetics, right, which we're talking about now, this, you know, force, pressure, torque, with more people understanding that, I think you know that creates a great opportunity to clarify some of these things, because you know pressure, you know, isn't weight, it can be pressure, can be, you know, a representation of weight, um, or you know better, better term like center of mass location can line up with our center of pressure, but not necessarily Right.

Speaker 2: 29:34

But, yeah, just the understanding, some of these terms like um, you know, you know cause, you know we talk about weight shift and, but people always conflict or they always, you know, buttress those two together weight shift and pressure, and and you know we need to have a better understanding of that. And you know what is pressure, you know, ok, weight is this, but in reality what it is, it's. You know the more appropriate term or the more applicable term is center of mass, right, and and then you know how the forces, uh, you know sort of dictate some of these elements, right, but I, I a hundred percent agree that, um, and that's, I think, a source of the misinformation. And then other people are, you know, intentionally, you know, trying to. You know, maybe they sort of understand it, maybe they don't, but they are so ingrained in their own philosophy that they're not willing to open their mind to uh, I got a good one for you.

Speaker 1: 30:36

They shall remain nameless. I will not mention their name for any amount of money on this podcast. But I had somebody reach out to me and they said, hey, you're the force plate expert and I want your opinion. And I said, okay. They said I've owned all systems and none of them work and I don't understand why they're all junk. None of them work. And I don't understand why they're all junk. And I said wait a minute, what all systems? And he literally named me every force plate system, 3d dual force plate system that there is in the marketplace and he's legitimately had them all and sent me a picture of all of them together, Like he, I guess, is a collector, so he sends me his data to look at because I'm confused as to how they're all wrong.

Speaker 1: 31:30

And his interpretation was is because his forces were late, they weren't lined up with the video. He thought that, like his forces should happen during this point in the swing. So he was like trying to take a single measurement or an impulse peak at a time in the video. And because his were really late, he thought that the system was like ill-timed and not working correctly. So I mean, like this is what we're dealing with. Man is like you know it's it's really complex man Like I, love, love, love, love. I have people all the time that come in and like I want to help people understand better and sometimes I think you got to reset people a little bit. So, like people will get all wound up about the force plates, right, like they can't wait to get on the force plates gotta get on the force plates, force plates, force but it's going to solve all the problems. And then, like I let them get on the force plates and then I hit like you know, capture, whatever I have to do, depending on which system I'm and then like it pops it up on the screen for them. I go, ok, there's force plates, and they're like, look at it for a minute and they're like, well, I don't, I don't get it and I'm like it's not the answer. It just tells us kind of part of what's going on, but it doesn't provide like a you need to do this, like I think. So industry really suffers the most is that our industry actually believes what we sell and we think we can distill everything down to one thought or one data point.

Speaker 1: 32:55

And the thing that I always tell people is like when they ask me to do my force plate training because I do force plate training with a lot of coaches, when they ask me to do this with them, they're like, hey, like can we just skip over the graph part? I don't, I don't want to read the graphs. And I tell people all the time, man, like you have to read those graphs, and not only do you have to be able to read a singular graph, but you need to be able to compare that singular graph to the corresponding other graph that makes this motion kind of happen. And like you have to read the music through the graphs.

Speaker 1: 33:27

And that's just really complex, man, like I know that people are like, well, you can't explain that to a three-year-old. Well, can you explain to a three-year-old why the sky's blue? Because I can, but they're probably going to tune me out when I get into, like talking about water vapors and like UV rays and things like that. But at the same time, jason, like what we're talking about isn't something that's overly simple, it's actually something that's pretty complicated. But if we understand it and take the time to understand how that applies to us, then we actually have a chance of learning it and mastering it and being able to execute it.

Speaker 2: 34:00

Yeah, no, I fully agree. It's interesting, and that's where I think I've been lucky enough to have my smart-to-move plates. They're great, by the way.

Speaker 1: 34:15

I like them.

Speaker 2: 34:17

Yeah, so I have the first to the market with the portable plates that are totally wireless, they don't need to be wired, they operate with iOS, where you and I could take those, the mobile plates, anywhere, like from the bay to the range, wherever easy setup, and such range, wherever easy setup, and such and. And you know, along with all that, which is great, but the you know the graphical representation. You know we can do the. You know the typical graphs where we have a X axis and Y axis and we can see, you know what's happening in the graph page. But they, you know they went one step further and provided a dashboard. Look for people that you know may be challenged on the graph side.

Speaker 2: 35:02

And but again, you know to present that data to your player and even like a 3D vector representation, like, okay, this is what the forces are doing, the magnitude is how big. You know this, this, this vector, is the angle it represents. We could spin that avatar in 360 degrees. You know, having these tools with the system are really helpful in, as you mentioned, making these complex things that are happening kinetically a little more understandable for the player. Right, and bringing that information you know down to their level can be challenging, but again, I think, with these robust tools that is provided in the software, it's really helpful to the player. You know countless times where I've, you know, presented them. You know, instead of in the graphical way, I'll present them in the dashboard or I'll present them in the, you know, the 3D avatar mode and even kind of understanding what's happening with the forces.

Speaker 1: 36:08

I just think you got to walk people through it. I get that people. You know I mean Dr Joe Lacaze, I think is amazing, for Rotex Motion does amazing stuff and like Joe's always like kind of tell me. He's like, well, can you point to it? You know what I mean. Like that's his big thing is. You know, as a doctor of chiropractic you know he can explain the body way better than I can, but like he's always a big point to it. And the thing is is like I want people to be able to point to it and then I want them to know that this isn't their collarbone but this is like their sternoclavicular and it's like kind of important because it's the beginning of the arm. But people are like, well, you talk that way to like sound smart and make people feel dumb and it's like no, I'm just calling it exactly what it's been agreed to be called by the medical community Because like if somebody writes sterno whatever in their notes instead of sternoclavicular, if they Google that they can look it up and it points to the thing I mean to say. So it's like I just feel like we need to do a better job within the coaching space of allowing for things to evolve. And it's just.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Golf is a very traditional game. You know that. I know that we love our history in golf. It's a very traditional game. You know that. I know that, like we love our history in golf, it's a very old game. But it's like man, like the instruction doesn't have to be like this hero worship stuff, because so-and-so said this, we have to do it this way forever and ever. So-and-so wrote that book back in the 50s and they didn't even have freaking cameras, man. So, like you know, they were really talking about a lot of feelings which, as we know I'm not saying feelings aren't real. They're very real to the person experiencing them. However, they may not be as accurate as you might otherwise assume Like.

Speaker 1: 37:51

So I just, I mean, I appreciate, what you guys did, man Like I can't do. Did you really like?

Speaker 2: 38:01

basically just kind of like walk out there and win your first world title yeah, my first time that I, you know, stepped on the tee at the world championship, you know there's a qualification process, right. So you back in, you know, this heyday of log drive and or you know, kind of modern log drive as I call it, or you know kind of modern long drive as I call it. That's like 1995 going forward, because this is where we've had, you know, mass participation, mass organization of the sport and a true venue to compete in. Prior to that it was, you know, they had, there was championships like the Chrysler National Long Drive they would do in conjunction with the PGA Championship, and so there was sort of a framework for the long drive. But 1995 going forward, that's sort of the modern age of long drive, where drive because Remax was, you know, an international organization, right, the Remax agent would build a day where maybe invite some manufacturers to come out and display their product, do like hot dogs and pop for the kids in conjunction with this long drive. But again, it was a marketing opportunity for the agents. But they would embrace that and, you know, build this connection with Remax long drive, which was the title sponsor, and you know, all the way through from these local competitions, you know, you know, eventually, worldwide, right, the, the REMAX agents embraced it, and then so you go from the local competition.

Speaker 2: 39:47

If you finished in the top echelon of the local, you went to the regional competition. You know it's back. Then, you know, we, if you look at participation numbers, it's interesting because people will say, well, you know, back when you started. At participation numbers it's interesting because people say, well, back when you started, it's really growing. And I'm like, well, I don't know man, we had 15,000 people trying to qualify for the Open Division back when I was winning these championships, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2006.

Speaker 2: 40:15

We had pretty much all those years more than 10,000 people that pegged it up and thought they could be a world champion, right, and, and now you know there's been a lot of things happen in the sport where you know there's been ownership changes in the event from the golf channel and then they sort of dropped it and then gf uh, sports and entertainment has purchased it and they've ran it the last couple years and they're they're finding, and you know, cutting their teeth in this, in this new aspect to them. They've not been involved in golf before. But to your question, I went through the local one, the competition, then I went to the regional and back then the regional ones were like regional ones were like they're killer. And I remember it was Utah, nevada, colorado, arizona, new Mexico. So all the best guys that qualified from those States came to Utah for the regional and we had 120 guys. They took three spots. So that's you. You know that's a really shitty monday qualifier on the pg.

Speaker 2: 41:21

Yeah, that's not good yeah yeah, uh, you know, three for 120 or 120 for three, however you want to phrase it right. So, uh, maybe four spots back then. So I qualified through that way. The first time I got to the world championship, I I didn't know how I'd fare, right like I knew I. You know I hit pretty good against all the guys in those states that I had just mentioned and you know I just I thought I could do well and but you know, I won every round all the way through, had the longest drive of the semi-final, had the longest drive of the competition and then, uh, I was the last.

Speaker 2: 41:56

Uh, for for many years we did it in a shootout format Once you got through all the elimination rounds at the World Championship, where we would start with anywhere from 64 to 196 players, and then you get down to the final eight and then it was a random draw, one through eight. You hit your six shots and the longest guy won. It's a little different now where you know it's. You know there's these round Robins where you have 16 guys that will hit. You know each guy will hit against all the other competitors Although there was four on the tee and such but in the shootout fashion. I was the last competitor to hit in that first world championship, 1996. My third, second or third ball, I, I beat everybody else. So you know, shut it down after that.

Speaker 2: 42:44

And um, 1997, that first year was in Las Vegas, 1997. Uh, they had moved the competition to Mesquite, nevada, and again, you know that I didn't, you know, like I, you know I, I won the year before but everybody was saying, oh, this little Canadian guy, there's no way he has a chance. No one's repeated since you know, evan Big Cat Williams, in like 75, 76, and that you know, almost 20 years ago, and I came back and I hit it over 400 in every round and established new record for the finals at 412 yards. New record for the finals at 412 yards. Uh, you know. Then won again in 1998, 99 lost by a yard in 2000.

Speaker 2: 43:28

So almost had five in a row. Yeah, and you know, in fact, in major long drive competition, um, it's pretty pretty, something that I'm very proud of 1472 days without a loss in sanctioned long drive competition. So that was, you know, coming up and I finished second Right. So you know that that span from 1996 to 2000, the competition, until that last ball was hit, I hadn't had a loss in, at the highest level of competition, the sanctioned world long drive competition right so that's crazy, like how I know.

Speaker 1: 44:05

so if, if you're not able to watch this on our youtube channel and you're just listening to the podcast, uh, I implore you, if you want to see what like working out will do for you, check out, just go to google and type Jason Zubak and like you're going to see some big old guns. Like Jason is a very, very fit guy and takes pride in it. But like I'm curious like how much of when you were kind of at the peak of your kind of power, like how much time were you spending, you know, thinking about like club delivery and ballistics of the ball and all of that kind of science stuff that we would kind of be thinking about now, and how much of the time was actually just spent on like building your body in a way to where you just felt like you could go out there and make it happen. Like I'm curious about that and your approach to that whole kind of bit back then and your approach to that whole kind of bit back then.

Speaker 2: 45:00

Yeah, back then. It's actually similar to, as we talked about, having robust tools and all the technology and all the information we have today, but it's very similar to what I did back then. I still think about it in very simple terms. Okay, I have a physical bucket, so this is physical. How's my physical capacity, right? That's mobility, stability, balance, strength, power, speed. You know, are those things optimized? You know what do I have to do better to be, you know, the best that I can be within that physical bucket? Okay, so that's that's. You know, our physical capacity, right? And this is exactly the way I think about it nowadays too.

Speaker 2: 45:42

And then the next one is our technical bucket. Okay, what do I have to do technically to hit the golf ball as fast or, you know, generate as much clubhead speed as I can, deliver it appropriately the way I want to deliver it with center face contact? What do I have to do technically? And then the third one is equipment. Right, we want to optimize equipment, and you know we could go down a whole bunch of different paths, but that's how, you know, I approached it back then. That's how I approach it now.

Speaker 1: 46:09

How much did your driver change during that run? Did you change significantly, or did it pretty much stay the same, or did it pretty much stay the same.

Speaker 2: 46:20

Yeah, so when I first started like I qualified with just a Calilay off the rack, great big Bertha with a stock shaft at X, and then at that regional competition where all the winners you know Utah, nevada, colorado, arizona, new Mexico were at, I started seeing all this. You know longer stuff, different shaft brands, and I was exposed to one called, you know, aldula had one at the time, a shaft. Harrison was a big player in the market at the time where they made a great shaft.

Speaker 1: 46:55

I still think that Harrison shaft is a good one man.

Speaker 2: 46:58

Oh yeah, no, they, they use really, um, you know, just to digress a second. So if we look at, you know, shaft technology, is is amazing, and the companies that do it. Obviously we're looking at Fujikura, you know, like the, the Velocor technology, like the Ventus line has, you know, amazing success across all tours. We look at graphite design, um, design, um, you know, with you name, the company and, uh, you know, we could go down.

Speaker 1: 47:26

you know, aldo is still making great stuff, the, oh you, mitsubishi, uh you know you're talking to a guy that's got a uh, kinetics driver shaft that's 40, 44 and a half. It's not long or anything. It's just like I love that shaft in my driver and then I've got a tpt 18 high in my three wood. I love that thing.

Speaker 2: 47:47

So like I mean, like the technology is crazy man right, so that you know kinetics, as michael mentioned, that's um patterson kinetics, or rebranded as kinetics now, um, that's, it's a. It's a great shaft. It's sort of evolved through long drive, although they've had it. You know the fellow that owns kinetics. He's actually had a lot of influence in the shaft game very, quite wide influence, but you you wouldn't know that, but he, he's a very intelligent guy, but the kin Kinetics brand has originated in long drive.

Speaker 2: 48:21

For sure, this is the shaft that Kyle Berkshire used, monica Living, the world champion last year, many, many world long drive championship wins. The TPT shaft line, where Martin borgmeyer won with 2022, eddie uh won a master, you know, uh, the bulk of his now three championships two, two of those came, or maybe even three with the tpt, which, uh, is a really good performing shaft. But, um, my point is that you know it's about, ultimately about material, like, what materials are we using and in what proportions? Right, there's design of that shaft, so how it's designed to incorporate the things you know low torque, high kick point, what have you right? And then there's process how is that shaft built?

Speaker 1: 49:17

So all those things you know have by the way way, here's a fun one for you, right like, and I bet you get this all the time, but I I want to throw this out there because I want people to hear this more than one at a time. I get it all the time. What shaft is that he used? What shaft? All that thing's got to be so stiff. That thing's got to be this. That dude. They are like the whippiest, like ladies flex shafts. You can imagine like. It's not rebar and it's not what people think, man. It's a different ball game altogether because, to your point, it's now not about just tensile strength and like these, like carbon fibers that they were using, now they're using all kinds of different materials that bends and flexes and snaps out to straight. The faster you swing like dude. It's crazy what they're doing like, but it's fun.

Speaker 2: 50:02

Now right, right, I it's interesting because kyle berkshires was the one that started that in sort of 2019 um in, you know, exposed the long drive guys to this, where, up until that point, guys wore how many x's you had on your shaft like a badge of honor. Right, if you got five x, you got four x, you three x, you're weak.

Speaker 1: 50:25

Two x man, you got no chances, were you?

Speaker 2: 50:28

yeah, like the x's yeah, jamie sadowski and I were about the same and jamie's uh, you know he won back-to-back championships, one of the, you know, pound for pound at 160 pounds. I've seen Jamie back then moving at well over 225 ball speed in that 2009 time frame where he won back-to-back. He had a large string of top 10 finishes in a row. He was almost unbeatable, as I was, for a stretch, but him and I were kind of in that triple, you know, kind of maybe on the slightly stiffer side of double X, right, so not crazy, but other guys would be like five X, four X, but to your point.

Speaker 2: 51:15

So now there's this paradigm shift in stiffness where, you know, we saw this in the consumer market with Autoflex, was the first one to come to that market, where it's a very flexible shaft Even, you know they have some speed recommendations based on, you know, sort of your current club head speed. It's a very whippy shaft. You know, somewhere in that order of you know, like regular or softer than regular, to ladies flex to senior flex. You know this very, very soft shaft and you know, with the technology we have now to, you know, make that shaft.

Speaker 2: 51:56

In yesteryear, that shaft would be tough to make because we didn't have a chance to control this twisting or the torque of that shaft. But now with the materials, the manufacturing process, the design, you know we can do these things. You know, and you know the shaft, that Eddie Fernandez won his third world championship there. It's the 21 high of the TPT line that one would be classified as a know in the senior flex category. But you know, eddie can bring that at 150 plus miles an hour and still square that up and uh, the.

Speaker 1: 52:28

It's interesting which I don't think you guys ever get enough credit for, like I. I don't think you guys. It's funny, you mentioned jamie. I watched jp. Uh, I watched jamie at t Sugarloaf like hit driver six iron into four, par four, par fives, and like that's just what he did, you know, like everything to him was just like it was, but he hit it straight Like Jamie could play, you know what I mean. Like he wasn't, like he probably wasn't quite to where he needed to be, to like have a touring career and all that stuff, but like he could play at a very, very high level, no doubt, and like you guys can hit the ball straight.

Speaker 1: 53:04

And the thing that's crazy to me is like everybody thinks they need this stiff shaft to get the face under control. But in reality, man, I think so many people are playing shafts that are way too stiff, they're way too heavy, and because they can't act upon that shaft, they sacrifice what they're doing with the ground body relationship, trying to create some loft to get the ball up in the air. And I think that's the worst thing that happens to juniors is. I think we immediately move them into stuff it's way too heavy, way too stiff, and then they never get a chance to learn how to build speed from the ground up because the club is just yanking on them the whole time because it weighs too much. It's the worst thing. Like dude, everywhere I go I'm I'm almost kind of, oh boy, here we go. So like everywhere I go, man and I know you see this a bunch too but like everywhere I go, I see these kids, and when I say kids I mean like people who haven't got done growing yet right, so they still look childlike and like dude. They're making like 110, 115, 120 miles of clubhead speed, which seems great on paper, but, dude, their body's not anywhere close to being prepared for that. And then they're just tearing up that trail labrum in their hip like nobody's business.

Speaker 1: 54:15

And it's really like we've got to get a hold of young people and get them to realize that it's it doesn't matter that you create the same speed as Scotty Scheffler at 16 years of age. Like that isn't like the X's on the shaft man. Like it doesn't make you a better golfer. Like we've got to learn how to like build this stuff Right. And you know, shaft is a huge thing, it's a big piece of that right Loft. That's enough.

Speaker 1: 54:41

I'm so glad that we're out of the dark ages of everybody playing a five-degree driver, thank God. Right, and that definitely came from the long drive side of the equation. But I just think you're right, man. I think so much of it. You know when you. I mean there's companies now using ground reaction forces to pair up. Kind of what your pressure trace looks like to the shaft, and I think that's really smart Like that. What your pressure trace looks like to the shaft, and I think that's really smart Like that makes way more sense to me than trying to match it off how somebody looks like they're hitting it that day.

Speaker 2: 55:06

Right, yeah, no, it's a, I think. All good points and yeah, it's, it's. It's interesting that's soft performance category. You know we can find many examples in it and I think a lot of it does come from the long drive guys. But again, for the average person, hey, why not try it? You know we've got Autoflex, We've got FreeFlex, we've got, you know, barty Adams, bgt, I believe it is. They've got a great product. Mitsubishi's got an equivalent product Acura.

Speaker 1: 55:41

They just don't get their day in the spotlight though, jason, because they're all. You know I, for better or worse and I don't want to plug anybody, but you know I I use them here in Ann Arbor, michigan, for some of our clients, but you know, club champion kind of is finally like fighting back for the consumer, in my opinion, just a little bit, because instead of going into your local golf course or your local you know big box store that sells golf clubs and being pigeonholed into what the manufacturers want to provide you, you're able to go in there and you're able to mix and match and you're not, you know, kind of like fit into a Titleist box or a TaylorMade box or a PXG box. Hey, if this shaft actually works better for you, we can get it to you. So I think that where a lot of these companies man struggle so much is that they're not in the product mix for the major OEMs, and that's really, I think, disingenuous to the golfer, because while we're talking about equipment and before I forget this, if I'm you I can't call and I can't pronounce the company, and I wish I could. But whatever company is making Bryson's new irons like, if I'm you I can't wait to call them Like I have already called, like if I'm a high ball speed guy and like I'm listening to this, and then when I say high ball speed I mean like elite high ball speed, not like you know, one 60, one 70, I mean like one 90 or one 80, one 90. Okay, if we're in that category, it makes all the sense in the world.

Speaker 1: 57:10

And what Bryson's talking about makes all the sense in the world, because the reason Cobra couldn't make Bryson what he wanted is because Cobra has to make golf clubs the way a major OEM makes golf clubs.

Speaker 1: 57:22

They can't scale and 3D print, but this guy did and gave him some bulge on the face and we know that that makes a driver a lot easier to find a fairway with. Because you're old enough to remember what it was like with the little persimmon heads man, like we didn't have as much, or we had more of that bulge and roll and that's how we kept it going straight. We didn't have as much, or we had more of that bulge and roll and that's how we kept it going straight. And now we've kind of lost that with these flatter faces and dude, when you're a high ball speed player, the worst thing you want is gear effect and by putting some bulge back on that face, especially with an iron dude, holy smokes. Are you guys going to hit that thing straight? Like I think this opens up the world for the high speed guys and and like I'm surprised that it hasn't taken off more. And it I mean it doesn't surprise me because it's never going to make it the market, because they can't produce this way.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Yeah, the Voda that Bryson-.

Speaker 1: 58:11

Thank you, a Voda.

Speaker 2: 58:12

Yeah, a Voda, yeah, so it's interesting. I know Josh Koch, one of the elite log drive guys. You know he's been in the top 10 for the last number of years and really hard worker, he's tried them, really likes them as well. You know it's that complex interplay of where the center of gravity is, you know. And again, you know that hollow body iron that Bryson's playing. You know we can move that CG back to, you know not driver positioning, where we can actually benefit from some potential ball to the role. It'd be interesting to try it.

Speaker 2: 58:47

I'd like to see the, the date on it, like as far as off center hits, and see dispersion wise, like you know, crank it up at. You know with Gino Perrette at golf labs and you know, put these to the test versus. You know a blade, a CB, you know maybe even some of the. You know like a tailor-made. You know hollow body iron and see, you know where that point is right, like where you know we take. You know average, you know five iron speed of the average player. Then let's incrementally go up and see what it's doing on heel and toe hits, right, um, yeah, yeah, I'd love to see the data on it. It's a. You know bryson, he's always got a lot of good ideas. Um, you know, I I was growing up a lot man.

Speaker 1: 59:34

He says, yeah, he says a lot of smart stuff. You know, like I I feel bad because he was so young when he got out there and you know he kind of had a bad case of like foot and mouth there for a little while. But like he's really grown up, man, and I think the content he puts out there is really smart. It's really boiled down for kind of like the mass audience and like, honestly, man, I haven't really seen him put out too bad of information when he's talking about the golf swing and quite some time, like I think he's really doing the industry a lot of favors right now.

Speaker 2: 1:00:06

Yeah, no, no, the Bryson, he's an intelligent fellow. Yeah, I think you know he's certainly, you know, has changed his public image significantly, you know, through a number of mechanisms to make himself more, you know, relatable, a number of mechanisms to make himself more, you know, relatable to the people and likable obviously. And, yeah, I think you know a lot of maturity and I think you know that move to live was really good for him.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

Just you know maybe not on the exposure side of things, but just, you know, kind of freeing himself up to be himself, right, and and then concentrating on some of the social media aspects and you know kind of pursuing the things that he wants to pursue. So I it's been, it's been interesting and you know a nice evolution. You know obviously his play is.

Speaker 1: 1:00:57

but you know, winning us open at Pine pie hearse this year was uh, I mean, there's very few people that have evolved golf equipment in a way that he kind of is Um, I mean, he really is a trendsetter and I know that he is not as popular as tiger woods and doesn't pull the same metrics, but like he really does move the needle when it comes to equipment and usage of set equipment and like I mean, he's been doing it with the one length from the beginning, he's been doing it with the jumbo grips, now he's doing it with bulge on the iron faces. Like I mean, the guy really is a different kind of thinker and you know, I I just I think that that's what makes him him right is the fact that he asked very difficult questions and like he's not satisfied until he comes up with that answer. So you know, I would I would be remiss to not say that I honestly view what he did winning that US Open with a completely different golf club than anybody else in the field golf club, than anybody else in the field. I think that that makes that US Open pretty special. Like to make that kind of bet on yourself to go out there to read. You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 1:02:06

Like I mean, dude, that takes a lot of stones to step up there, because if it doesn't work, man, you are going to get killed, especially the way he's exposed on social media, I mean, they're going to come for you in droves. So for him to kind of make that bet, kind of like he did with the end range of motion stuff with the first US Open, like for him to kind of be learning and evolving, like I just look at that and I go. I think our industry should strive for more of that. I don't think that everybody needs to try to be Bryce and DeChambeau, because that's definitely not the route for everybody to go. However, I do think, like his curiosity man, I hope it's infectious to the industry because I love it.

Speaker 2: 1:02:44

Yeah, no for sure, he, you know he's, you know he's. Went down a bunch of different paths that I think. But ultimately, as we alluded to earlier, it's all about performance, right, and he doesn't make a change unless it performs better. For instance, you know, going with the crank driver and he's, there's a lot of bulge and roll on the like his crank drivers, and you know as we.

Speaker 2: 1:03:11

You know it was interesting, you know, number of years ago I remember reading that, well, the faster player doesn't need, you know, or like a flatter, you know, because you know this curvature on the face. So for those that aren't familiar, so we have curvature generally. You know this is excluding some of this. You know some of these companies that use, you know, multi-locational curvature. So generally the driver would have a curvature from the toe to the heel, which is called bulge, and then curvature roundness from the crown to the sole right and that is measured. Toe to roll, yeah, so we measure that by the radius how many inches? The radius of a circle. So if that radius is smaller, that curvature is more so.

Speaker 2: 1:04:10

But you know, bryson went to more curvature in both those planes and what I was getting to is that, you know, years and years ago they I remember reading an article from a very smart club. You know a designer and he said well, the faster player doesn't need as much bulge and roll. An article from a very smart club. You know a designer and he said well, the faster player doesn't need as much bulge and roll. But now I think we realize that the faster player, like bryson, he is benefiting from more bulge and roll, right?

Speaker 1: 1:04:36

well, bryson's biggest problem is the same problem that every fast guy has they, no matter how good you are. And look, I've seen all the Instagram photos of like tigers, wear spots and all that stuff, but it is still a very wide spot. That's worn out. It is not exactly on the same spot every single time. So when you're talking about moving equipment at you know the speed that Bryson DeChambeau does, which is faster than any other tour player.

Speaker 1: 1:05:05

When you start, like counting the millimeters that you missed the middle by, it becomes way more like influential to what the golf ball wants to do in terms of some gear effect and some things like that. So you know, honestly, from what I have read in the press and that's all I'm quoting, like is things I think I've read, so bear with me. But basically Cobra came out and they were like we can't make the guy happy because he wants the ball to go straight when he doesn't hit the middle of the face. And then Bryson's going. I understand the math and I know that we can put some bulge on this face and I can hit it straighter, right, and like, basically, I think Cobra didn't want to hear that. So then bryson, being bryson, went and found a company that would listen to him. They put some bar. I don't know if the company was already doing it or bryson took the. I don't know how that works.

Speaker 2: 1:05:53

However, he got what he wanted and he obviously made it work by winning a us open, so I think you just got to applaud the guy for the effort, at the very minimum right, yeah, yeah, like I was involved with a lot of these projects, um with Cobra, while Bryson was there, um in some way, shape or form to be able to try and get him a product he was happy with, right, so, uh, how do I phrase this? Like it, it was very challenging, like I know what I'm doing with drivers because that's been my game. For you know, I worked originally with Terry McCabe at a Kushnet, one of the great metal wood designers. Nine seven five D, nine seven six R, nine seven five J, the JVS, the LFE, 975d, 976r, 975j, the jvs, the lfe. You know I've been involved with, you know, metal wood design on the cobra side, the 427, the 350, the uh, 450sz the 350, I think, was one of my all-time favorites oh yeah, yeah, some good ones.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

So a couple of those heads you mentioned from Akushnet are real good heads too, man.

Speaker 2: 1:07:07

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:07:08

Those are small timers.

Speaker 2: 1:07:09

Yeah, you know they switched me over to the Cobra brand, so that 427 was a great performer.

Speaker 1: 1:07:14

Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2: 1:07:15

You know the 450, it had a bit of phase progression Guys that hit it. That was a great driver. And then you know S9, you know the double X speed or the X speed from Cobra. That driver was 10 to 12 years ahead of its time just because of the technology they put in. It was a truly cup face driver, so the face sort of it wasn't a face insert but it was a face that actually was a cup. That's where it was welded and that has the potential to give us some advantages with club design, with velocity, equalizing some of these spin elements, structural integrity and then Speed Pro D, which was one of the best performing.

Speaker 1: 1:08:02

That was a good driver.

Speaker 2: 1:08:04

One of the prettiest heads. Jamie Sadowski won his first world championship with that head. But you know one of my favorites of all time, you know just that pear-shaped block, you know, very deep.

Speaker 1: 1:08:15

The only problem with that driver for me was that, like, any time you found it, it had the yellow shaft right. Am I getting this right? It had the yellow shaft right. So every time you found one by the way, we're going back here, ladies and gentlemen, because this is when you couldn't like twist them apart they were glued and they always had like an extra stiff yellow shaft in them and I wasn't big enough and strong enough to like swing that shaft. But I finally did find one with an EI 70 and, dude, I wore that thing out. Like I love that driver.

Speaker 2: 1:08:43

No, no, that it's still one of my favorites and, uh, you know I still pull it out once in a while. That was, um, you know one of my favorites, that that was probably in that 2006 2007 time frame. Right, that was right around when I won my final open championship, um, can you?

Speaker 1: 1:09:03

see the screen.

Speaker 2: 1:09:04

Oh yeah, there it is the uh r7, super deep.

Speaker 1: 1:09:08

Yeah, I got it I got it deep right here too, but I play this quad all the time, dude. Oh yeah, and here's the funny thing, get this. I told you I got some nice clubs. So I got a qi 10, uh, nine degree with the kinetic shaft in it and I swear to, to God, this driver with this old graphite design, stiff, flex, torque, turquoise thing puts up the exact same numbers that my QI 10 does. It's crazy, but like I mean, it's to your point, man, like the technology has been way, way ahead for a long time. Like the legal limits one five zero, it's been one five zero for a long time. Like the legal limits one five zero, it's been one five zero for a long time. And it's like, well, how do we launch it and spin it better? Like that's basically what we're trying to do now, but in terms of like creating smash factor, like we can't create more than one five zero or you're playing with a driver. That's illegal.

Speaker 2: 1:09:59

Right, yeah, the, uh, it's interesting that you know some of the technology, like the power bridge that Cobra has in you know this current generation than the previous as well, with the. You know, we're trying to make, you know, obviously, even if we hit it off center, we're trying to equalize spin, but we're also trying to equalize velocity right, to make it forgiving. But, uh, these, that power bridge is, it works phenomenal. Um on, if we have a low impact on the face, it's coming off, you know, very quickly, almost as fast as center face contact as where we tended to lose a lot of velocity before. But again, you know, you know it's. You know this club aspect where, hey, let's try what's out there, cause I, I, you know that's the easy button, we call it a TPI. You know, like how Staples had the easy button. Yeah, that's the, the club is the easy button If you have a competent fitter with a robust selection of options.

Speaker 2: 1:10:59

Right, you know they need. You need a selection of shafts, you need a selection of heads. You know, I it's. It's one of those things where I could probably find you 10 to 20 yards. I don't care who you are, I could probably find you 10 to 20 if you want it Right, and then you know, obviously we need to come to a consensus with. You know accuracy and you know that whole blend. But I could find you some speed for sure, like if I you know whether it's putting a one of the new shogun acro shafts in with um. You know a cobra dark speed ls or you know whatever configuration. You know a really good fitter that's got a robust bag of tools. You know that's the easy button and just so.

Speaker 1: 1:11:43

You know, I was a titleist staffer for like a long time and now I'm like mr, like miros and stuff like that. But I started as a humble titleist staffer for 10 years and it was the cobra king ltd that finally got me to go. You know what? I can't play titleist anymore because I just gained like 40 yards, right. Oh yeah, killed that ltd dude because I used to overspin it and that ltd man, like it, did not spin, like that is one thing that driver did not do that was, I think bryson's, probably his favorite driver in the cobra line.

Speaker 2: 1:12:21

You know he he really liked that.

Speaker 1: 1:12:23

Uh, like you have to if you get one, by the way, it's still a great driver. If you spin it too much, the lt can find you one. There you're, you're going to be able to find them, uh, but they're not going to cost you that much money. But here's a trick, or here's a trick of the trade with that particular driver. It has a massive port in the sole of the club that you can twist in and out, which is kind of cool until, like, it goes loose on you and starts rattling around like it tends to do. But if you take a little loctite and put in there, it's perfect and you never have that problem again. So, just like king ltd. Great driver, but you got to loctite it a little bit gotcha.

Speaker 2: 1:13:00

Yeah, no, it's that was. You know that that was one of one of my favorite ones of the. You know the F9 still is a great performer.

Speaker 1: 1:13:10

I couldn't launch the F9.

Speaker 2: 1:13:11

That's why I?

Speaker 1: 1:13:12

never made the switch. I couldn't launch it.

Speaker 2: 1:13:14

And then that, that, the, the LTDX, that debuted. So the, the lineage right now is so dark speed. There was Aerojet and then prior Aerojet was LTDX. And that one, you know, when it was tested independently it was very, very good, very accurate, quite fast. You know that that was kind of a, a really excellent design. And then Aerojet, they went, hey, we're going to try to max speed. And you know, I test, I test everything every year and the Aerojet was the fastest, right, is it the most accurate? You know, you know it doesn't have the. You know what we refer to, the MOI, moment of inertia number. But you know it was super fast. And then, with dark speed, they kind of got back to you know, you know, still super fast, but again, you know, with a degree of.

Speaker 2: 1:14:05

You know, forgiveness too, and, uh, you know it's interesting that. You know I keep using that word, I should find a different word. But with club design it's, we can make a fast driver, that's not an issue. We can make a forgiving driver, but the most challenging thing is to make it fast and forgiving, because that's that. That takes, you know, really significant engineering, uh, and and technology to be able to do that. So, um, you know the thing that I?

Speaker 1: 1:14:38

don't get either is like I mean and and look, cobra title is tailor made ph, all of them. They all make great stuff. Everybody makes good stuff. Now, like there's no room to hide anymore. Like you're gonna get killed on social media, you're not gonna be able to sell golf clubs. Like everybody makes good stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:14:55

But like the thing that kills me, man, is like you're right. Like we're constantly trying to balance, like hey, can I find the fairway when I need to and can I hit it as far as I possibly can. Like I want to be able to do both those things at the same time all the time. But like the problem that people, I think, run into a lot is they're like they always. It's just human nature. They default to the faster. They never default to more stable. They always default to more fast, right. They always default to more fast, right.

Speaker 1: 1:15:28

And the thing that they don't realize is like the fast that they're choosing is like maybe a mile an hour, maybe three, okay, it's not really that significant. And the problem is is like we talked about, they're not going to hit the middle of the face every time, so they're not even going to get that one to three every single time and, as a matter of fact, they're probably going to get a little less, because the reason they got the one to three to begin with is because the driver's kind of engineered for speed and not for forgiveness in the first place. So now they actually lose by chasing that extra little tiny bit. So like I think what you said is really really important Like hey, I can fit you and I can give you 10 to 20 more yards, but then we got to actually look at that and go. Is that like functional yardage or is that just extra yards that you know you're going to have to walk to get your ball out of somebody's backyard?

Speaker 2: 1:16:16

Exactly, I guess, a good takeaway though for the average person and even the more accomplished player. You know, we always have our brand preferences, right. But if we're going in for a fitting and I think you know nowadays with all the you know, you know my golf spy you've got Rick shield, you have all these resources where guys are reviewing stuff all the time of go into a fitting with an open mind, right, because you're going to have, you know, okay, oh, I, I saw the ping G430 10K. You know that one. You know my golf spy said every driver should be, every golfer should be hitting that one. Well, I don't know about that, but I would go in with an open mind to try everything right, like the one of the one of the most surprising drivers.

Speaker 2: 1:17:05

You know, I've had exposure to the Japanese market. I used to go over there five times a year. I love their club design, right. We have these companies that you don't see. You know Strixon's got different stuff, prgr's got different stuff, mizuno, they have a brand called J-Beam. They have all these cool brands and they really they do a nice job of building stuff, you know, and oftentimes very elegant, uh, very beautiful golf clubs, and I I'm a big fan of design and and such.

Speaker 2: 1:17:38

But what I my point is that, um, it's, you know it's about, you know, getting something that performs right and um, the, you know, srixon irons are have some traction in the U S, but the driver, you know, people may not even know that they make a driver, but I tried a driver. Oh yeah, you know, one of the most pleasant surprises when I tried the Mark V LS, right, you know very well performing and such. But again, my point is going with an open mind, right, going with open mind. You know you got to know your fitter, you got to trust the fitter. You know brand agnostic, hey, let's put the best thing in your hands.

Speaker 1: 1:18:22

And you know, and choose the thing. I'm happy to say, jason, I mean this I'm playing the best golf of my life right now. Like I've had a wonderful summer of playing golf, I've shot under par a bunch of times, Like it's been great, it's been wonderful. I made a decision before this golf season that I had had enough, Okay, so here's what I mean by that.

Speaker 1: 1:18:46

When you buy a golf club, typically the average person, when you go into a golf store and you buy a golf club, some engineer that you have never met, not once in your life, is trying to help you do something to a golf ball that you may or may not need help doing. But I have had enough of the engineers trying to influence what my golf ball does. So here's what I did. I know me and I like the steel fiber I-95 shaft the best. That's the shaft I play, I love it and I'm not I'm not open for discussion Like I'm sure you can put something in my hands. It's slightly better this way or the other, but like overall consistency and quality and average and what I'm going to do. This is the shaft for me. And then order to set a mirror one oh ones, and B's right, just straight blades. And everybody thought like I was having this huge, like ego moment, like I'm going to play blades. But really all I wanted was like the basic construct of what an iron is, which is basically what a blade is right, like this is the golf club and it's purest form.

Speaker 1: 1:19:43

And then what I did is I went over and I took the pitching wedge, first one, and I went over to the track man and I hit it and I said 130, because that's how far I want my pitching wedge to fly. It was 130. And you know what? It flew 120. And I was like darn it. And then I tried again and I said 130 and 120 is what track man said. And then I said 130 and 120 is what track man said. And then I said darn it. And I tried a couple more times and swung really hard. I just couldn't make it go 130. So then I went straight over to my Mitchell offline machine and I freaking bent the thing a couple of degrees and I went over until a track man said what I wanted it to say.

Speaker 1: 1:20:17

And you know what, like that in my mind is how you fit golf clubs. Like I needed to go a number it. How you fit golf clubs. Like I needed to go a number. It's all about how far this ball goes. I like how it gets there, I can adjust, but I need this club to make the ball go that far. And like that's how I did it, man. And like I had to find a shaft. Obviously that works with where the CG is within that head, yada, yada. I know all that stuff.

Speaker 1: 1:20:41

However, like I think people get really lost in the sauce and thinking, like most people don't need 14 golf clubs, dude. Like most people don't generate nearly enough clubhead speed to ever need a five iron, four iron, three iron high. Like they don't need. Like the three wood is the most worthless club in the market. That's why none of these companies can sell them anymore because like nobody can hit them. And I'll let you on a secret If the three wood is your favorite club in your bag, maybe write it into your will for your children because, like, if you've got a three, would you love keep it. If there's one club that's oh, jason's smiling right now if there's one club that's always the oldest club in the bag on tour, jason, it's always the three. Am I wrong?

Speaker 2: 1:21:20

no, yeah, yeah, fighting a good three was like a unicorn I know man, you know to. Yeah, you know there's been some great ones. You know I I did, you know an x on our tech.

Speaker 1: 1:21:32

That was the last great three wood.

Speaker 2: 1:21:34

Oh yeah that that sonar face, deep face, three wood was a great one. That v steel taylor made the oh, that's a good one.

Speaker 1: 1:21:42

That's a good one.

Speaker 2: 1:21:42

The v steel yeah, the old calloway s2 h2, one right like the. I have one right here, look, look, look yeah, it was almost as uh, uh, about the same size. You're gonna laugh dude.

Speaker 1: 1:21:53

Look, I didn't have to go far. Look, we got the, the calloway heavenwood, number seven. Oh sorry, let me get on camera there. There you go, look at that with the original shaft. Nonetheless, yeah, and then, even better, you didn't think I had this, I got the divine nine baby oh, there you go that with the original uh silver shaft yeah how about that? Those are great man.

Speaker 2: 1:22:18

I don't know for sure the uh, but yeah, the three woods. Uh, your cobra's made some good ones too.

Speaker 1: 1:22:28

I've had some really good Cobra 3-woods over. The Exotics made an entire company out of making a good 3-wood Right.

Speaker 2: 1:22:31

Tour Edge, I mean they really did Dude.

Speaker 1: 1:22:34

That's what they those Bazooka 3-woods and those Tour Edge Exotic 3-woods back in the day everybody had one of those things because they had a 3-wood that was good that everybody could hit.

Speaker 2: 1:22:48

Interesting. You mentioned that most people do not need a full bag to play golf, which I 100% agree with. I was having a conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:22:58

Then they could walk too.

Speaker 2: 1:23:01

You could take a Sunday bag right. A female player the other day she's like well, you know, just to your point. You know, when club head speed may not be that fast, every club goes about the same distance, right? So you know we need something that could get it in the air and something that goes a little more linear, right?

Speaker 1: 1:23:25

But this is what kills me, though. Like there are options for people, right, and you're talking about like a good fitter. So here's like my version of a good fitter. It's like I got somebody in there who doesn't have a lot of clubhead speed. They know they can't hit the five iron far enough, so they're like, ok, give me the five hybrid. They're not going to hit the five hybrid any farther either, jason, because they're not going to hit it any higher. So like the problem is is that person really does need like a nine wood? And like people scoff at that and like, oh, but Dustin Johnson's been playing with a seven wood for years, and like there are more seven woods on tour right now than you can possibly imagine, cause those guys love the fact they can just hit it straight up in the air and it's going to land like you know elephant crap when it hits the green right, yeah, no, it's uh, it's about performance, right, and yeah, who care?

Speaker 2: 1:24:11

who cares? Right, uh, the uh, but I, but I, I do think you know, in the fitting aspect, you know, especially with the wedges, even like having somebody that's knowledgeable about wedge fitting, you know can really help you out. Um, in the aspect of you know turf interaction and you know just selecting a product that's going to perform the best for you is going to work every time. No, because you know we're not all. You know, phil Mickelson, we're not all gifted in that respect, but you know making the best choice for you.

Speaker 2: 1:24:46

You know, in the short game stuff and it's interesting, it's noteworthy that I was working with Mike Weir at the Rogers charity classic on some specific stuff with the force plates and you know typical things that mike would ask me through the years and I I sort of shared my philosophy with him and I think you would agree like, obviously there's, you know, essentially, four different swings in in the golf swing. There's, you know, our putting action, which is totally different than everything else. There's our finesse swing and these need to be siloed right Like they're. You know people will often think there's just one golf swing. The driver swing is the same as everything else and it's not. So. We have our, we have our. You know the the putting technical aspect. We have the short game finesse swing, we have our general iron swing and then we have driver swing and all these differ in, you know, a number of different variables and I think, understanding that, where, uh, I think you would agree when I, you know, when I work with the champions, tour players and any accomplished player that's over 40, that really hasn't done any long drive stuff. What they tend to do, I think you would agree, is that you know it's this, this swing in a barrel. Right, they don't have much lateral, they just turn. They're really good at creating this.

Speaker 2: 1:26:17

You know vertical torque, you know this rotational. You know movement with the body. They don't go up and down very much, they don't produce much. You know vertical force, or you know as much as you know this younger generation, but that's how anybody over 40, that's that, that was the teaching philosophy I think you would agree. Right, like the, oh yeah, less lateral, more rotational, not much vertical, but you know to, you know if we're looking at maximizing some of our, you know the distance element, especially with the driver. You know we to. You know if we're looking at maximizing some of our you know the distance element, especially with the driver, you know we have to. You know that swing works great as a universal swing. But you know, if you want to go in a specific direction with more distance and you know you know on the finesse side, as the things we work on, like Victor Hovland and such, you know there's there's specific elements that we need to modify. You know, to maximize those silos that we have our swing in Right.

Speaker 1: 1:27:10

I got a great example of this. I just worked with one of the tour players that I work with and he has just had the best season driving that he's ever had in his career. He's been out there for seven years, just had his best career ever driving the golf ball and also paired that with his worst scrambling year ever. So it hit the driver Absolutely great and the chipping went to hell. So we just had a big camp because obviously season just ended, we just had a big camp and we're kind of talking about things and he's like, look, man, before we go any farther, like we got to sort out like what's going on with the chipping, because like I barely can make contact right now and I was like cool, I was like let's do it. So, anyway, like I take him over, I got this like really tight lie here at measured golf, uh, where my putting green is, and I'm making them chip off that Right, and like the guy literally is belating every ball and this is a tour card like his one-on-tour, like it's a good player, and he literally is belating chip shots and I'm like what are you doing? And he's like I don't know, man, and I was like walk me through it. So he's like, yeah, man, he's like I've just kind of you know, I've been hitting the driver so well that I kind of took that setup and I kind of have applied it to everything. And I was like, okay, well, tell me more, right. And he's like, yeah, and he's like I'm just really trying to feel like I push away from the ground with my left foot, like I do with my, because it's really helped my driver. And I'm like, yeah, no doubt man. And he's like, uh, what do you think? And I was like I think we got way too much impulse, dude. Like he literally couldn't get the club to the ball because he was pushing with so much vertical force that it was to use a james lights term cartwheeling himself backwards right and moving low point back with it because the pressure moves with it.

Speaker 1: 1:29:04

So it's just like. It's just like it's really interesting. Because, like you would think, like if I told that story about like a normal golfer, you'd be like, oh, that makes all the sense in the world, but we're talking about a very accomplished player, you know, finished inside the top 100 on the on the money list this year on tour. So I mean it's. It's just really interesting how people try and this is the industry in a nutshell, right Like we try to take one thing and say that it works in every situation, but the one thing that we do know about golf is that X doesn't always equal Y, and like that's the complexity of golf, right, is you don't have to have perfect ground reaction forces to be a perfect golfer, and there isn't a perfect golfer, so like there's some variability. That is just inherently going to be required yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:29:49

Um, I think we could apply that. You know where we see rory mcelroy. You know, arguably or not, arguably probably the best driver of the golf ball you know, since jack, I think it's bryson now.

Speaker 2: 1:30:04

Honestly, I mean, I think bryson's replaced him yeah, you know, but you know rory's a very one of the top drivers of golf all for sure, yeah, right but I think the things he does that makes him this very potent driver and that, as one of his top assets, doesn't do him favors with wedges, if you know what I mean like.

Speaker 2: 1:30:30

So you know this, you know the his loading the trail side, you know the, you know the mass movement combined with his pressure movement and the forces that he creates to do the thing with his do the things with the driver that he does that makes him a potent driver, creates not an issue but a challenge with the wedges, as where you see a player that does things a little differently than him, like Scotty Scheffler, obviously you and I talked about. You know it's, it's, it's uh, there's a lot of people that make a try to figure out why Scotty Scheffler has that rear foot action and you and I talked about this His pressure's really left, right, exactly, but everybody from everything from oh he's got a hip injury to like I've seen the most bizarre stuff and I'm just like he's a really potent lateral mover.

Speaker 2: 1:31:35

He pushes like really hard. Here's a way to replicate Scotty Scheffler's swing. You know, take a long iron, even take your driver, put all your weight. Or you know, put all all your. You know, center your mass over your lead foot. Now take a swing. See what that lead foot does. It does his exact action. So he's a really potent mover laterally. He just de-weights that. That you know he, he, he gets, you know so much force, uh, produces so much force towards the target. You know he's such a potent lateral mover that he de-weights that back foot and that motion of the back foot. It's a counter movement to since it's really not on the ground. It's countering the rotational aspects he's creating downstream in a swing and it's a counter move to what he's doing Right.

Speaker 1: 1:32:25

You've been to Augusta national, I'm sure Right.

Speaker 2: 1:32:28

I have.

Speaker 1: 1:32:28

Yeah, yeah, so you know how they have the new tournament range. That's you know. I'm sure you've been there recently. But like they have the new tournament range and then they have like the caddy house down there right next to the range, and then there's the giant shade tree right there and then like vj's always down there in the shade all day long banging drivers all day right. Like you know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1: 1:32:47

But like a couple years ago I was down there and like all the guys were down there kind of hanging out in the shade and like it kind of happens this time I've seen it happen more than once but like somebody hits a drive and then somebody else hits a drive, and then somebody else hits a drive, and now all of a sudden we're gonna like see who can hit the drive the farthest. And like these guys were like hanging out on the range at augusta national just banging drivers and like one thing like really stood out to me is there's different ways to get it out there and like the guys that are truly long like hit it real high off the face and it goes forever. Like and then there's a lot of guys out there who are a little undersized, who kind of wind it up a little bit more and it takes out quite a bit lower and kind of like eventually gets there and kind of needs a little assistance on the rollout and like that's kind of like the differences right and what makes players. And like one of those players that hits it super far but kind of would wind it up a little more, I would say, and kind of launches it out a bit lower, is like a cam smith. And if you think of cam smith, that's kind of exactly the ball flight he hits right. But then if you think about cam smith, he's like this phenomenal freaking wedge player and he kind of chips these really low little bullets into all the greens under the wind and then gets them to grab because they have phenomenal spin rate on them.

Speaker 1: 1:34:06

So, with that being said, rory is one of those launch it to the moon guys and it carries forever and like to your point, like if we're hitting wedges and we're really good at launching it to the moon and now we need to keep it in orbit, that's going to be something that is challenging for somebody who's really, really good at launching it to the moon. So I mean, it just is what it is right. I mean like, and, scotty, you know I've I've gotten a million DMs about it, I know you have as well, and it's, I feel, the same as you right. It's just like he's very, very good and at P2, he immediately gets left, and he gets left faster than anybody I've seen get left from P2. And then, like dude, he's just already there and like that right foot has nothing on it, so it's just kind of an anchor dragging around. Because he does, he already pushed out of it.

Speaker 1: 1:34:55

People say that he doesn't use his right leg. No, he just uses it earlier than most, in my opinion. So you know from what I've seen, so long story short, man, I would, but it's just such a treat man to see somebody, uh, who's approached this craft with such care as you and like you're definitely a no stone unturned kind of guy. Man, like I just appreciate the hell out of that, because if, if you watch jason compete, you know golf, uh, golf zilla kind of comes out and you're thinking like, oh, that guy must just like drink protein shakes and lift weights all day and he can't be very smart, but I think, uh, I think that's not the truth, man, I think you're one of the smarter guys I've talked to, uh, about all things golf related, and I just really appreciate you taking the time to join us and share some of your insights, man, because they've been brilliant.

Speaker 2: 1:36:05

Oh, thank you, Michael, appreciate it. It's been a, you know, great opportunity to, you know talk about some of these issues and such, and you know hope, you know people get a little, you know perspective on things and such, and you know I always like to say I, I, I like to not surround myself but like within my sphere that I always like to have people that are way more intelligent than myself because that I can ask them the tough questions like yourself on. You know, james Leitz, mike Adams, you know these people that I. You know, if you surround yourself with a bunch of yes, men, you never, I don't think you ever get clarity and I never. You know. You know what I mean. It's just, I think the more robust you know people that you have that you interact with that are way more accomplished than you, that that's when you learn a lot, right, and that's you know I. I'm not, you know, anywhere close to those guys.

Speaker 2: 1:37:14

You know JP Fernandez, head of biomechanics, at smart to move. Dr Tyler Stander, fred, um, uh, you know we could go down. Dave Phillips on the golf side, um, on the golf instruction side. So you know, when I have a question, you know I ask people that are way smarter than myself, right yeah?

Speaker 1: 1:37:31

But the thing that you bring to it that's so great, man, is. You know I love all those guys, and you know I would be remiss. You've mentioned a lot of great guys that I've definitely learned from as well, but you know Dr Mark Bowles, another great one that I've learned from, so I'd be remiss not to bring up Bowley. But, with that being said, you know, I think that we need to understand what we're seeing, and I think we need to understand it from a deeper perspective than just a very superficial one of what we see a golf club doing around the human body. So I do think that we need to understand these concepts and what's happening from an anatomical standpoint.

Speaker 1: 1:38:07

However, going back to kind of the original part of our conversation, you know you didn't know that stuff when you dug it out of the dirt and like that's the thing that I think we forget a lot of times about athletes is that athletes are very good at adapting and compensating their motion to get the ball to do what they want it to do.

Speaker 1: 1:38:28

So I think where you really bring value, though, is as much as you're willing to go down the rabbit holes with guys like me and whoever at the same time, like you're always looking at it from the lens of is that going to work for me, the athlete? And I think that's really good because we need that kind of coaching right, like it can't be all very lab X's and O's, percentages vectors, you know, we still are dealing with human beings that are only going to have their feelings with them on the golf course. So being able to take this information and make it usable and make it applicable to the athlete, I mean I think you do a great job of that and you're always kind of talking from that inside out perspective, which is what I really appreciate.

Speaker 2: 1:39:08

Well, thank you that you know it's. You know what we say at TPI is always, you know, don't guess, assess right. And you know that that can be applied across when I when I mentioned whether it's that physical bucket, right? I don't want to be guessing out of players. You know the way I approach things, michael. I want to know their history. I want to know, you know, do they have any injuries? I'm going to do a physical screen to see where they're at. I'm going to do, you know there's a lot of different physical screens. I you know I'm in the TPI fold, I love the TPI stuff and you know, am I saying it's everything to everybody? No, but I think it's a great system A great starting point.

Speaker 2: 1:39:51

man Like I mean at the player's healthy enough, I want to do some strength testing. If the player's healthy enough, I want to do some power testing. And then we go down the line. We go, you know if we can get some kinematic data. You know, just to know, get to know our player. Right, kinematic data we could understand. The force plate data, know the grip pressure data you and I talked about with, uh, you know some of the new products coming to market with what's happening between that hand grip connection, right um, and and also understanding that players. You know their ideology. What are they trying to do, right um, you know that's a huge thing. Their tenants, like what?

Speaker 1: 1:40:40

I think that's the thing that gets missed with all the technology is we forget to ask the player like hey, what do you want the ball to do? You? Know like not what does Trackman say is best, not what does the force fight say is best. But like, what do you think is best? And I think you know we just kind of lose sight of that sometimes.

Speaker 2: 1:40:56

Yeah, no, ultimately it's. You know, one of the big takeaways that we can give is that we need you know all these things matter, all these things are important, but it comes down to you know. What does the player desire? What you know. Do they want to hit it longer? Do they want to hit it straighter? What shot shape do they want? What are the vectors that are most important to them? And then I can make you know I can construct my strategy to improve them. You know, most of the time I'm in the bucket of you know I can construct my strategy to improve them. You know, most of the time I'm in the bucket of you know guys want to hit it farther. You know most most, no one's coming to Jason Zubak and saying hey, can I get a putting lesson Jason?

Speaker 2: 1:41:36

Yeah, you know, even though I'm a good putter, I'm a, you know, pretty good with the short game, but they're coming to me and saying, jason, I need 20 more yards.

Speaker 2: 1:41:42

That you know. That's where I live, right, but, uh, but you know, I have an appreciation for all this stuff and you know, understanding the player, understanding their wants and needs, you know. But then you know, as a coach, what you know is, you know, are these wants and needs, you know what, what's going to be able to achieve their goals the fastest and the best, right? So that's where you know we take all the stuff that we have and that's where the most effective coaches, you know, ultimately lie. You know, with respect to uh, understanding that that crucial element, and I don't know like I, uh, I love doing this stuff and you know it's been, uh, you know, great to have, you know, many interactions with you, michael, because I always learn something every time and, uh, it's uh, not always good things, not always good things, so just maybe a new way to swear in canadian or something like that.

Speaker 1: 1:42:38

but but hey, man, thank you so much. I mean I think you kind of summated what we've been talking about very well and you know it's a privilege to have somebody like yourself on the podcast. I really appreciate your insights. I love what you're doing for the game. Your enthusiasm man. Like you never have to wonder about that. Like you're a very enthusiastic person, you can tell that you love what you do. I'm a very enthusiastic person. You can tell that you love what you do. And, dude, I just love to meet people that love to learn because at the end of the day, my happiness kind of is tied to learning. So the more I can learn, the happier I am as a human. So I appreciate you sharing your insights with us.

Speaker 1: 1:43:17

If you're interested in getting to know more about Jason, find him on Instagram. He's definitely doing some stuff out there with Smart2Move as well. Instagram. He's definitely doing some stuff out there with Smart2Move as well and always has just a ton of cool projects, like he listed with TPI, cobra and a few other companies. So he keeps himself mega busy Definitely easy to find out there on the internet. So thank you so much for listening. If you haven't already subscribed to this podcast, please do so and make sure that you're paying attention, because we have many more great episodes to come this season. So thanks again to Jason, and until next time, keep grinding.