The Other S-Word: Let’s Talk About Suicide (Ep.86)

Guests are: Karlyn Nelson and Michelle Post

Karlyn Nelson

Survivor of Suicide Loss | Breast Cancer Warrior | Realtor

Michelle Post, M.A., is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (MFC 40198) with nearly 20 years of experience providing counseling and psychotherapy to clients in the greater Los Angeles area

According to the NIMH, People with schizophrenia have a much higher rate of suicide than the larger population: People with schizophrenia have a 10% rate of suicide compared with the larger population’s 1.3%rate of suicide. 

Suicide is the biggest reason for the decreased life expectancy of people with schizophrenia. 

A larger number of people with schizophrenia contemplate suicide. Around 40–79% of people with schizophrenia have reported having suicidal thoughts.

Saddest fact is that it is at the time of improved insight that most attempts are made. ie. when the person has finally moved past anosognosia and realizes his plight it is with improved understanding that this decision is made.

We Ask:

1. What is an “emotional heart attack”/
2. What are "The Five Things" when dealing with suicide loss in the family?:

1. Get help yourself (best indicator of how well a child does after the death of a parent is how well the surviving parent copes… so if only one can get help, needs to be the parent).
2. Use truthful and clear info about the cause of death and explain it in child terms – let the child lead with questions – do not over load them with info.  They will need different info as they age
3. Acknowledge and validate a child’s feelings
   1. Reassure them they are not to blame
   2. Address their fears and anxieties
4. Encourage them to continue routine activities, structure gives them a sense of security
5. Include them in as many memorial / activities around the illness, injury, and death as they choose.
   1. Prepare them
   2. Let them make an informed decision
   3. Share info and allow participation
   4. Debrief with them.

3. What can be done for suicide  prevention?

LINKS:

Suicide hotline: 988

https://postfamilycounseling.com/

https://www.instagram.com/karlynnelson/

https://didihirsch.org/wp-content/uploads/Manual_for_Support_Groups_for_Survivors_of_Suicide_Attempts.pdf

This is the link to the manual for survivors of suicide attempt groups, and training can be made available through Didi Hirsch Ment

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

I really embraced talking about mental health and talking about Tom as a person and how he struggled. And then, you know, creating new hope for Theo and I. We, in terms of celebrating Tom, we have what we call love days.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

That's the voice of Carlin Nelson, whose husband died by suicide, leaving her to deal with cancer on her own and raise a two-year-old son. She's now an activist and joins us today, along with her therapist, Michelle Post, as we talk about the other S-word, suicide. Welcome to our podcast, Schizophrenia. Three moms in the trenches. From the place where schizophrenia and real life collide. East Coast, West Coast, Middle America. With Miriam Feldman, Mindy Gryling, and Randy Kay. Finally, a place to talk about the truth. Well, we are going to talk today about suicide, what many are calling a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I don't think it's a solution for the people that are left behind, and that is what we're going to talk about tonight. In a moment, we'll bring in two guests: Carlin Nelson, who is a survivor of suicide loss, also a breast cancer warrior and a realtor. And we'll also bring in her therapist, Michelle Post. And Michelle is a licensed marriage and family therapist with over, well, nearly 20 years of experience, and she is with post-family counseling. So we'll have a story and we'll have help. Mimi, I'm going to hand it over to you to this is this is your podcast tonight. So why don't you go ahead and talk about this and introduce our bring our guests in?

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Okay. Well, we've been talking about having a podcast about this subject and not even knowing where to start. It's such a morass, it's so complicated. Um, suicide is such an important and big issue in our culture altogether. And then when you throw schizophrenia into the mix, it gets even more complicated. So this is probably going to be one of more than one podcast about this subject, but I think we're getting off to a great start here. I want to just give our listeners a few of the statistics about schizophrenia and suicide so they can understand the relationship there. Um, according to the NIMH, people with schizophrenia have a much higher rate of suicide than the larger population. People with schizophrenia have a 10% rate of suicide compared to the larger populations 1.3. So that is a big jump. Suicide is the biggest reason for decreased life expectancy for people with schizophrenia. And um, a larger number of people with schizophrenia contemplate suicide, around 40 to 79 percent of people with schizophrenia report having suicidal thoughts. And to me, this is the saddest fact that always breaks my heart when I think about it. The point at which a person with schizophrenia most often takes their life by suicide is actually when they're getting better. When the uh psychosis is lifting, when they're beginning to have uh some insight and some understanding, when the anexo an excuse me, anasygnosia is uh lifting or being resolved. Uh it's then, it's that moment when they truly understand what has happened to them and what the forecast for their life is going to be with this disease that they uh contemplate suicide. And to me, that's just so heartbreaking. Um that it's when they get better, is when they reach this uh turning point. But um, so you see, there's a definite relationship there. So um we are going to talk with Michelle and Carlin. Carlin, I'd like to just start with you and just give us a short overview of who you are and what you do, and however much you care to discuss about what happened with your husband.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Okay. Uh, thank you so much for having us. This is such an important topic and one that I talk about a lot very openly. And I think that's something that will truly help people. So I appreciate you talking about this. Um I am I live in Los Angeles. I am a single mom. I'm a widow, I'm a suicide loss survivor, I'm a breast cancer survivor, uh, but I'm someone who lost my husband Tom, my best friend to suicide. Uh Tom died by suicide on September 24th, 2018. And um he had had previous attempts, but I truly thought, and I don't want to use the term, he had gotten better, but I thought we had truly found ways for him to deal with his depression and anxiety. And he had taken, he had taken steps to to help himself. Um he died on my first day of chemo for breast cancer. Um when I was diagnosed with breast cancer in May of 2018, we were like, we're gonna fight this. We've got this. He's like, all we have to do is beat this, Carlin, and and we've got the rest of our lives ahead of us. Um, I had a double mastectomy in June. I had a series of infections, et cetera. We had a really rough summer. Um, and Tom's birthday was in August. And when the time changed, et cetera, uh, he would often start to get depressed and anxious. And he wasn't fully aware of that. And I remember about three or four weeks before he died, he looked at me and he's like, he's like, I'm so stressed out. I'm I'm I'm so depressed. And I said, Well, honey, it's that time of the year. And he said, Well, what are you talking about? And I said, This is the time of the year, you know, he had had previous attempts. I said, This is the time of the year when your depression and anxiety gets the worst. And he had no cognizance of that. He was not aware of that. And I think that speaks to who he was. He knew he had depression, he knew he had anxiety, but he saw that as a weakness and something that he didn't want to talk about, um, you know, wasn't something he shared with people. Um so we talked a little about that. Um, but on September 24th, you know, he went to chemo with me that morning. Um he was there supporting me. Uh I was putting our two-year-old son, Theo, to bed. Uh, Tom said, you know what, I'm just gonna go sit out. We have a fire pit in the backyard. He goes, I'm just gonna go sit, sit back there and just I need some alone time. And I said, okay. And he and I were texting, you know, back and forth. I said, I'm trying to get Theo to bed. Um I came out, gave him a hug, kissed him goodnight, said, I love you. Uh, I went to bed and woke up at about 1 a.m. Uh, the dogs were barking, and I couldn't, I didn't know what was what was going on. And I realized Tom wasn't in bed, and I thought that was strange. And um, I came out and I found that he had died by suicide. Um, I found him, I tried to resuscitate him, I had to call the ambulance, we had policemen, firemen coming, the neighbors coming, and obviously it's always shocking, but I was in complete and total shock because I thought he had found the help that he needed. Um, and that wasn't the case. And, you know, in that instance, I truly believe, as we discussed, he made a split-second decision. Um, and Michelle and I talk about this, you know, I truly think if he had gotten past that one moment, he would still be with us today. And that's why I call it an emotional heart attack, because, you know, like a widowmaker or something can instantly kill you. And I truly believe if Tom had made it past that moment, um, he would be here today. And that's why I'm so vocal about getting help and telling people you're not okay, because I think if you can let people in and let people know that you're suffering, you can you can truly find the help that you need.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

When you were going through that, oops, I'm muted. Never mind. Okay. No, you're not muted. Go ahead. Oh, I'm not. Okay, I thought I was. So Mimi started to talk. Um, when you were going through that, did were you operating under the principle that um that you shouldn't talk about it? You mentioned that's why you're so vocal now. Back back then, were you trying to avoid the subject, or were you talking about it and still, still he died?

SPEAKER_03 9:58

I, when Tom was alive, to, in my opinion, his depression and anxiety, that was his story to tell. And it was his decision to share that with people or not. Um, obviously, I was very aware of his depression and anxiety living with him. His family was very aware of it. And, you know, he had gotten a lot of help before. Um, he was very vocal with people who he recognized were suffering from depression and anxiety. But I would say when I had to call and let people know he died by suicide, it was a complete shock to people, including his best friends. No, no one, not no one, very few.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

But but you did talk with him, it sounds like that's kind of what I meant. Because they always say, don't bring it up, and then are they, you know, that used to be the common wisdom, which we know now isn't true, but don't bring it up, or that might give them an idea. But it sounds like you were communicating with your husband about this.

SPEAKER_03 10:59

We talked about it, um, as I said, and I've talked to Mimi about this. I he truly saw it as a weakness instead of a disease, instead of something that's in his genetics. Like his mom and I always talk. We wish people talked about mental illness, like they talk about cancer or they talk about diabetes. Like it's not your fault. Um, and I in I truly think in the five and a half years since he's died, a lot of those conversations have changed. And we talk about things more openly now. You know, I talk to Theo. Theo, my son, is seven and a half now. Um, and we talk about suicide at a level that is appropriate for him. Um, because I want him to know that I'm here to help. And if he's ever feeling depression, anxiety, sad, we we name his emotions. Um, I want him to know that no matter what, I'm always here to help him.

unknown 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Do you have anything to add to that? Because I saw you nodding vigorously over there.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Well, you know, as as honored as I've ever been to meet Carlin and for our paths to have crossed, if I'm honest, I I wish I never would have met you. Right. You mean that Tom had not died, yeah, and that we wouldn't have found each other in this way. So um I just want to say thank you again for having us on. And and Carlin is sort of an example of resilience at its best. And and part of what I struggle with with the word resilience is there is a big part of me that wishes none of us ever had to be resilient, that we we we didn't have to find a way to be resilient, that mental health was something that we adapted to well in society, that that suicide was preventable, that we talked about things in a way that was helpful and holistic and understanding and compassionate and loving and kind, and that resilience was just not needed because we were much more of a village. So I'm I'm nodding my head vigorously because I see all your growth and I just appreciate being able to witness you.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

So, Carlin, what was your when when you would talk to people and and discuss this now that you do much more openly, do you find a lot of people relating to you, a lot of people opening up and talking about these issues?

SPEAKER_03 13:23

I think it was I think it was really interesting. Um immediately after Tom died, we were obviously all in shock. And I remember having a conversation in my living room with his mom. And we were talking about, you know, we have to, we have to publicly let people know that he had passed away. And she said, Well, we're not gonna say suicide. And I said, Why? And she said, because we we don't need to. And I said, Tom was a helper. If we can help one person by by saying that this was suicide and that there are ways to get help and there are ways to to find that help you need, then we've honored him. And since that conversation, we've all been very open about suicide. Um, suicide is, I think I've used the term a different beast, I think, because people either see it as like a car crash or they want to avoid the topic altogether. Um, you know, people ask why, people ask, well, what happened? Well, did you guys get in a fight? Did what what was the thing that caused it? And I think that's a misconception. And Michelle can speak to this because I don't think there's ever any one thing. And and and um I it's just I think there's so many misconceptions about it, and it's really hard because it's something that may be perceived as dark, and people don't want to talk about it because they're worried if they talk about it, then there will be more suicides. And in fact, the opposite is true.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

Is it yeah, you know, I mean, we were talking, you and I were talking about this at one point, and it's something that I would like to talk about a little bit here. It's a little touchy, but um, you know, I've not up until 20 years ago when Nick got schizophrenia and I entered into this um world, I I was one of the people who thought, well, you know, if people want to kill themselves, let them kill themselves. This is one thing that we have provenance over, it's our own lives. And who am I to tell somebody else if they don't want to live anymore, that they have to live? I've since come to realize what serious mental illness, what that really is, and what that does to a brain and a psyche and a person's agency and ability to make decisions. And we were talking, and you said something to me that I'd like to say to the audience, because I think it's very important, is that um most of the time when somebody does die by suicide or attempt suicide, it's because of the underlying problem. It's not because you had a fight with Tom or because the sun didn't come out that day, it's because of the underlying problem. And so, and very much so with people with schizophrenia, is you have to get the person to a point of lucidity and and understanding of what their mental state is before you can get around to talking about this and how to deal with it. Because when the person is that crippled by their emotions or their mental illness, they can't even understand what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yeah. Right. And that's how that's how I explain it to Theo, my seven-year-old. Daddy's brain was so sick that it caused him to hurt himself so bad that he died. Um, and I think it's important to say you don't know who's suffering from depression and anxiety. You know, Tom was the top realtor in his office. He was six foot three and incredibly handsome. He had a successful business, he was a model, he was an actor. He he doesn't look, he doesn't fit the box of what many people think depression and anxiety would be. And so, you know, they say, check on your strong friends. I think that I think that fully applies to Tom. Um and right, I don't think he fully understood what was happening to his brain and did not get the help that he needed.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

I think we actually have three three layers of what we're talking about here. And one of them is some things that we need to understand about suicide itself. And if the last thing we need is to feel guilty that we could have prevented it. But if we can help other people to be aware that maybe it can help preventing something in the future. So there's that. Like, what do we what do we want to say about suicide itself? Like, I know as a someone who teaches emotional intelligence that we always say never make a decision in an extreme mood, either extremely happy or extremely sad. Now, when your logic centers aren't working, it's hard to follow that. But, you know, so there's that one layer, then there's the second layer of you, Carlin and Theo. How do you cope as a survivor of suicide loss? So there's that layer, and then there's the layer of the rest of us. What do we say? How would it be helpful to re what is the worst things people can say, and what are the best things people can say? I know my husband was an alcoholic when he deserted our family, and I chose to explain his actions as a brain illness to my children as well. He may have had an underlying mental illness. I'm racking my brain to thinking of what it might be, but um, you know, I just said daddy's brain was so sick that it made him do something he ordinarily wouldn't have done. And it was, it's a lot easier to forgive when when you're thinking of an illness. So I think, you know, there's kind of three important, I was saying exciting, but you know, important issues to talk about here. And thank you so much for for bringing it up and sharing your story. So I thank you too.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

And I I was in a writing group when I was writing my book, and there was a man in there whose father had died by suicide when the writer was um a young teenager, maybe 13 or 14. And his family didn't talk about it. They just kind of all were totally silent. So the fact that you have talked to Theo and explained it, I think, is one of the things we can all agree is one of the things to do. Because this man, he finally finished his book, but he became an alcoholic and he was traumatized. You know, he was a grown man, you know, he was, I don't know, 30, uh 40, maybe 45 or 50. And still he was in such trauma as he wrote that book because his whole family clammed up, unlike yours. So that's huge.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Well, and it's and it's interesting too. I have a lot of people who reached out to me, friends I've had for years who had family members die by suicide, who had parents die by suicide. And I had I had no idea because you know, they've said we just never talked about it.

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Um, and I get back to that same stigma about mental illness that we all talk about all the time. And you know, you you get to the point, especially when you're dealing with serious mental illness. Well, I get to the point where it's sometimes I just feel like can we stop talking about stigma and do some scientific funding and find a cure? But the thing is, the stigma is it's the cause of so much pain and suffering. You know, I I think that if there wasn't stigma, there would still be suicide. But my God, the fact that somebody can lose their own parent and then nobody talk about it. And also it's mired in the the Judeo-Christian ethic of you know, suicide being a sin and all of that. And and it just, I mean, it it makes it impossible to talk about before, during, or after. So, how are we ever going to deal with this subject? Why don't you tell me about the five things? That's what I want to hear about.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Before we go there, can I briefly say historically about suicide? What's fascinating is back when this was an issue, the hemlock with Socrates, and it became a public pandemic, they went to the judges at the time and said, We need a solution for this. So they formed a committee of people that you would go to and talk. About why you deserve to take the hemlock. And if the judges agreed to you, you would be given it and you could suicide. But if you disagree, if the judges disagreed and they said, no, no, it's not that bad. No, you can't have it. People would attempt anyway. And if they survived, they threw them in jail. So it became a crime. And then when that didn't end it, they went to the great Catholic Church and they said, Can you help us? You know, there's thou shall not kill. So can we just adapt that to suicide and make this a sin? And to this day, still, the Catholic Church, you know, if Catholicism is one of the preventive factors in risk management for suicide, because people feel like you're going to go right to hell. There's no chance to make your repentance. But it really wasn't now we're seeing, oh, even the Catholic Church is coming around. It's not a sin, it's an illness. The underlying illness is mental health. It's a psych ache. What Ed Sneidman, who was a professor out of UCLA, described as a psych ache, this intense pain that people who were feeling probably major depression, probably some schizophrenia, were having with just their brain not working. And then they would feel bothersome and that the world would be better off without them. So their brain worked against them. And so that's that's the fascinating thing is we call it commit suicide from all of these old committing a sin and committing a crime, but it it really was just a man-made judgment. A man-made judgment. And what we know is because of the judgment, people don't ask for help. The shame prevents getting help.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Whereas interesting, I've seen on television lately, there's a public service ad running that just over and over again, it says on the screen in different voices saying, Well, have you thought about suicide? Do you think about suicide? And it's it's trying to encourage people to talk about ask your kids. Because again, that's the whole big uh predominance among young people. You know, kids who don't even have their brains aren't even developed to the point where they're adults and they're taking this drastic, drastic action. And among um the very higher risk among people with schizophrenia also is in the beginning.

unknown 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

So that's again when we have to start talking about these things.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Right. Mr. Rogers, if it's mentionable, it's manageable.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Wow. NAMI actually teaches to be have people not use commit suicide. That's a that's a thing that would everyone is corrected in NAMI in my area. If anyone says that, you're supposed to say died by suicide or something of that sort, but get rid of it. Because we don't I never actually knew the genesis.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

So thank you, Michelle. Yeah. And we don't say, oh, he committed a heart attack or you know, she committed cancer, right? It really highlights important. And I notice you three are the first people I've ever come on a podcast with and not had to explain it because you already know and you already say it. So thank you. Thank you for modeling for people.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So let's let's talk about the five things then. The are these five things for someone who is considering suicide, or is the five things for the people who are survivors of suicide loss, or is the five things for the rest of us to know how to help? Or is it who's gonna talk about this? Carlin or Michelle?

SPEAKER_03 25:38

I'll I'll start this. Um after Tom died, I found it very, very difficult to find help. Um, grief groups, you know, if there's not one meeting right then, you have to get accepted. There's lots of paperwork. I was fighting cancer, grieving in deep, deep grief and trying to raise a two-year-old. Um, so you know, it it was hard for me to find a grief group. It was hard for me to find Michelle. I had to go through several people to get to Michelle. But Michelle, I credit Michelle for giving me the tools I needed. And I desperately needed tools. Um, give me an action. What can I do to help myself feel better? Because I have to raise my son. Um, I can't just give up. I have to kick cancer's butt and then be here for Theo. So Michelle um helped me with these five things that I should do, or other survivors of suicide loss should do, you know, if they're dealing with a child or someone else.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah, they they are based on the work of my mentor. I your ambiguous loss person, Jerry, came on. And her mentor must know my mentor because they speak the same language. Mine is about to be 92, J. William Ward in PhD. He's a retired Harvard professor and one of the only longitudinal bereavement study people out there. And these five things are aimed for people dealing with a child who is struggling with something. They're basically about a grieving child, but I think that it also would be true in some sense when you have a child who has serious mental illness. And they are number one, as the parent or the guardian, get help for yourself. The research clearly shows that the best indicator of how well your child will do after the death of a parent or after you're dealing with anything, divorce, et cetera, is how well the surviving spouse or the other parent is doing. So if you only have the resources to get one person help, let it be the provider of care, you know, the provider of the family, let it be the adults in the family. So I first of all affirmed to Carlin that she wasn't running around only focused on getting stuff for Theo. She was willing to make time to see a therapist herself. And then when it comes to a child, you know, what we were talking about is use truthful and clear language about death and about the cause of death and let them lead. So same thing if you're dealing with an illness, if you're dealing with a death, what's really going on, include those children. Don't just act like something scary is going on and then they can't figure it out, or you're talking about it to your friends and you think because they're waist and lower that they can't hear you, but sound travels below your waist. We have to remember, sound travels below your waist. So you need to include them. You're going to be stressed. They need to understand why you're stressed. And then the third thing is acknowledge and validate the child's feelings. Well, I think that's true about us as adults too. Acknowledge and validate feelings. So reassure them they're not to blame. Reassure yourself you're not to blame. Address fears and anxiety, right? So that's number three. Encourage regular routine activities. If you can go to school, go to school. If you can go to work, go to work. If you can go to yoga, go to yoga. Whatever your routine is, that distraction is a needed reprieve from the intensity of stress and what you're dealing with, right? So children need that too. It's not abnormal for them to have a parent die one day and to want to go to school the next day. Very normal. They want structure, boundaries, consistency. We need that in times of crisis. It gets our legs under us. And then number five, include them in as many memorial activities or information around the illness, the injury, the death as is appropriate that they choose. So, how do we prepare them for something like a funeral? How do we let them make a decision about participating in a memorial? How do we share the information, allow their participation in a doctor's appointment? And how do we debrief them afterwards? So including them is really, really important. And not acting as if they are not a part of the family system. So this applies to any of your listeners who have a child that has schizophrenia and they have other children. Those other children need to be brought in, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:09

And know what's going on and why it's happening exactly the advice we all could have taken right at the beginning when our one kid did get sick, because it's perfectly applicable for the siblings. And we've all done shows about this and we've talked about this amongst ourselves about how uh the other kids end up marginalized and kind of lost in you know, a nowhere land where they don't know what's going on, but they know that something's wrong. And um, and we think we're protecting them.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Right. We think we're protecting them. It comes from a good place, it's counterintuitive to bring them to something scary, like the hospital or a doctor's visit, or a cancer treatment, or a you know, uh a funeral. But if they are prepared, their brains can handle it in spurts, and then you just bring a companion along with them. The younger ones need a little companion. So if they get tired and bored, they get to take a break. So that is that's where we started with Carlin, is is here's why what here's why you need to keep coming and prioritize yourself.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

I would say we continue to repeat these five steps in different ways. Um, Theo was two when Tom passed away. And what we're realizing is as he gets older, we need to continue to support him. You know, grief doesn't go away. We all know that. You live with grief for the rest of your life. And and especially in America, people want you to be, oh, it's been a year, you're over it. You start dating again, move on, like put all his stuff away. And that to me, that's not true. And that's something that's fascinating as well is you know, death, grief. People want to push it under the rug and cure you.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

And it's it's not something Sherry was talking a lot about that with her ambiguous laws about this idea that we're supposed to somehow get over and leave grief behind. And and I think that's something that's particular to our culture. I don't think it's all cultures, and I think more and more people are beginning to understand that it's something you just carry with you. You told me, Carlin, that the that you that the episode that um Jerry Clark did particularly spoke to you.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Yes. And I just want to, I'm looking at my notes because I wrote down, um, you know, she said some of the things that resonated with me were reconstructing identity. I had to reconstruct my entire identity after Tom died. You know, I suddenly was a single parent. That was never my plan. I was a widow. My house was empty. Uh he and I ran a business together. I was suddenly running a business on my own. Um, you know, we hung out with a lot of couples. Not all the couples wanted to hang out with me anymore. Um, you know, I'm very, very lucky. I have an amazing community of friends and neighbors, and they they banded around me, but it I was like, who am I? And then find meaning and discover new hope. I really embraced talking about mental health and talking about Tom as a person and how he struggled. And then, you know, creating new hope for Theo and I. We, in terms of celebrating Tom, um, we have what we call love days. So Tom's birthday, uh, our wedding anniversary, different holidays. We call it a love day. And and, you know, I asked Theo how he wants to celebrate Tom. We often talk about Tom, watch photos, videos. And I think that's also especially important as he gets older because, you know, he's at the age now where he told me, he said, Mom, sometimes I worry, I don't remember dad. I only remember what you tell me about dad. So we, you know, I'll have him ask me questions. We really like watching old videos I have on my phone of Tom. But um, you know, that's I think that's discovering new hope for him because he wants to understand who his dad was. His dad was an amazing man who truly loved him. And I want Theo to know, you know, there's hope to move our lives forward without forgetting Tom.

SPEAKER_04 34:18

So let me ask you another touchy question. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

The thing that struck me when I first met you years ago, Carlin, and to this day, is I hate to say the word resilience again, but you're resilience, you're I want to punch everyone who would say, You're so strong.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

Oh, I know. Believe me, we all get it, maybe such a good moment.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

You know what I hate? God doesn't give you more than you can handle. Everything happens for a reason. Yeah, I hate that. Take all those awesome down the stairs.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

What do you do with the anger?

SPEAKER_03 34:55

I mean, there has to be anger, yeah. There, I mean, there's tons of anger, yes. Um, and the anger comes in waves. Some I get lately, I get really angry at Tom when I when I really think about how Theo doesn't have a dad. Um, and you know, that's not that's not fair. That's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

And he should be here. It's definitely not fair. And one, oh, go, we're you weren't done. I was gonna ask you about advocacy when you is that a way to turn anger into doing something because and then if you you obviously have turned into an amazing advocate, and I'm wondering if there's any organizations that you have found especially useful or helpful to you.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Um, yes. So, so anger. Um, I went to a rage room, I I did boxing, I punched a lot of things, I'm a I'm a marathoner, I ran, I exercised, and I found my lifelines. My lifelines are my friends, therapy, exercise, uh, breath work, and and community. Um, and so that's what I do when I'm angry or anxious or really sad. I go to one of those lifelines, um, family members. Um, and I tell anyone who is like, I don't know what to do with the grief, I say try everything and find the lifelines that work for you. Because I tried all kinds of things, and you know, I'm not a big meditator, but that works for other people. So you have to find what works for you. Um, and I think, I think grief, you're going through all the emotions. Sometimes, you know, I'm laughing, thinking of something fun, Tom and I used to do, and then I'll get sad and then I'll get angry. And I still go through all the emotions and I think, and that's okay. Um, and then in terms of advocacy, I the organizations I've worked with the most are Didi Hirsch here in Los Angeles and the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. Um I Michelle can speak to this. I beat myself up because I want to do more, but I have to realize I'm I'm a single mom and I have a very active kid. So I that's my priority now, but I do what I can. Um I love to write, I post on social media, um, I raise money. Uh, and I and I really think for survivors of suicide loss or people who are dealing dealing with suicide, I found it very helpful to find an organization like Didi Hirsch that focused on suicide because I had tried other grief groups and they just, you know, people losing parents who are in their 80s and 90s, a completely different kind of grief. Um, so I had to find my my group.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Is Didi's group focused on suicide? Pardon? Is Didi's group focused on suicide or is it general grief? Suicide.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

It's uh the Didi Hirsch Suicide Prevention Center. Um and they they focus on mental health, but also specifically on suicide.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

Uh it sounds it sounds like like you have you know worked on this and continue to, and um I was speaking to a friend who's who who lost her mother, but like her mother at a very, very young age, and now she has two kids, and she says people are saying, oh well, you know, I should feel better because I have my children, and this is your mother, the the longer they're gone, the more things they're missing. So, you know, your Tom not getting to see Theo as a five-year-old, like that in a way, and this is my guess. I'm not a therapist, but Michelle is right here to correct me if I'm wrong. I I think the grief grows in a way because the longer he's gone, the more he's missing. And so I that anger will, I guess, always be a part of you. And I'm so glad you you have your lifelines. I remember when my son, Ben, was four or five, um, their babysitter called and said, I can't babysit today because my fiancee just had an epileptic seizure and died in a car crash. Like she was so in shock that she called me to tell me she couldn't babysit. Like that's and my son was very upset. He's a little boy. And then when I said, Well, you know, he the the he will live on in our memories, and then he couldn't remember him anymore. And my son cried because he's like, Well, it's my job to keep him alive, and I can't remember him, you know, because kids take this to heart. And you know, so my stock answer is it's not what you remember, it's that the love will always be a part of you.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

That's and then so will the grief. And what I was thinking before when you were talking is it's interesting that the culture tells us to get over the grief, to move on. The culture doesn't tell us to get over the love, we're allowed to keep that and love them forever. Well, the grief is the underbelly, you know what I mean? That's right. It's um it's part of it, it's not something you can extract from it. You know, when my brother died last year, and it was is devastating. And but the thing that I kept saying over and over again, I believe it so strongly, is that the grief is commensurate with the love. And if that's the ticket to having an authentic life, if that's the ticket to having that kind of love, then I'll pay it, you know. I mean, I'll pay that ticket, I'll carry that with me too. Um, and I think I think that it's it doesn't do us a service to think that somehow we're supposed to leave that behind. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

One of my favorite quotes from Dr. Nemeyer, who is a big wig in the grief research, is closure is for bank accounts, not love accounts.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah. So no, they they died, their body died, your love for them didn't die. Your grief is gonna be there. I totally agree with what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Along those lines, can you share with us we've heard a lot about what we shouldn't say, and I think we probably can add to that list. And Carlin, you know, I mean, we've all experienced grief of some sort, but not the grief that Carlin has had with her husband, you know. So what is a helpful thing for for us to do to support someone who is a survivor of suicide loss? What is helpful?

SPEAKER_03 41:55

I well, and I'm gonna have Michelle back me up on this. Um I actually really enjoy when people talk about Tom and tell funny stories about Tom and make me laugh, and you might make me cry, but the tears are love with nowhere to go. Um, a lot of people don't want to mention the person's name because they're worried they're gonna upset you. And I always say, you talking about Tom dying is what upset me, not you talking about Tom. Um, you know, his memory will live on in the story. So I always say, don't stop talking about the person. Um understand people's boundaries. Sometimes I feel like talking about Tom, other times I'm just not in the mood. Um, and just offer support. Don't so many people tell me, well, I didn't reach out to you because I didn't know what to say. There's nothing to say. Like there's nothing good to say. It sucks. It was terrible. Say, I'm here for you when you need me.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

And it's I think thinking about you.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Right? You're on my mind. I'm thinking about you. I'm here to listen. It's not what about you say. Why, why do we want to take responsibility for what we say? It's about opening up your ears and listening. That's what matters. And doesn't that apply to you and with your sons as well?

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Absolutely. And I was gonna say, um, I think the lesson for last time, you know, we focused on uh not suicide, but ambiguous loss, such as we all suffer with with our sons. And Jerry said, um, you know, it's cruel to prioritize grief, you know, don't say somebody's is worse than somebody else's and so forth. But but ambiguous loss with people with mental illnesses is a huge loss. And so who's to say, you know, what is worse? But it's definitely something we all share. This, you know, what can people say? How do you deal with it as you know, afterwards, or in our case, when it's continuing, but people stop talking about our sons, you know? I think we have so many commonalities. So thank you both for being our guests and for talking about it. We, which is the whole thesis for our whole podcast. We talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

Yeah, absolutely. I heard I heard this week uh that Ralph Waldo Emerson said, I I it's on my phone because I took a picture of it. I love it. But it's basically like to give someone else advice is to intrude. To give yourself advice is to grow. Yeah. So so you know, we can tell ourselves maybe it happened. I don't believe in maybe it happened for a reason. That doesn't comfort me, but it may comfort someone else, but I'm still not going to tell them. That's not my place to tell them how to stop grieving. I I will just say, oh my God, this is so awful, or let me give you a hug, or I wish this hadn't happened. You know, I to give someone else advice, like, you know, oh, move on, or you know, any of those things that can be strength when we tell ourselves those things, we'll tell ourselves when we're ready to hear it. But saying it's never helpful to say it to someone else. Um, so if anyone says, oh, well, you know, maybe Ben got schizophrenia because uh, you know, I don't know, the people that go past life sin or, you know, any kind of ridiculous thing that is supposed to make me feel better, it doesn't. It doesn't. It it it it it's it it simply sucks. It simply sucks.

SPEAKER_04 45:43

So a point of lucidity for me was when I realized instead of you know bemoaning why did this have to happen to him, um, you know, I don't subscribe to any particular religious dogma, but I believe a lot in the universe. And at one point I just realized, well, you know, one in ten people get schizophrenia. So if one in one in one hundred.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

One in one hundred.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

I'm so sorry. One in one hundred, thank you. Uh, you have to do a lot of editing on this story.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Um me correcting you, I'm gonna leave that in.

SPEAKER_04 46:22

Are you gonna get schizophrenia? Maybe it was fortuitous that they gave him to me because I can do this and I can take care of him and I can rise at the occasion, and he's not dead in an alley somewhere, and neither are your sons. You know what I mean? It's like, so who's to say it's you it's not flipped the other way? If someone had to get him, I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

I don't always feel that way every day. I don't not every day. Can I just get in here? As long as this we focus on schizophrenia, and this is about suicide. I'm just gonna say um Jim has had three suicide attempts, and he is not usually uh doesn't always fit the mold, I think, with most everything. And suicide is one of them. But his most serious attempt was not when he was getting better, it was when he was listening to his command hallucinations and voices that were telling him, you are, you suck, you are a terrible person, and you shouldn't be living because you haven't been following my orders. You were supposed to, he had some pretty horrible things he was supposed to do, but um he wasn't doing them. And that's that was the cause of his most serious suicide attempts. So there's, who knows, it's a very sick brain with um all suicide attempts. So I think that's the commonality. Uh, but I for anybody who's listening who's had uh a son or daughter with schizophrenia who had a suicide attempt, that could be another reason.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

I'm also glad you brought up attempts because Dee Dee Hirsch has created a curriculum for groups of survivors after suicide attempts. And anyone can go on and research that curriculum and get training and start a group in their area for people who have attempted and survived. And it's been very effective and presented at different conferences about going through this eight-week group and how it helps people prevent attempting again and helps improve mood.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Do you have a website for that? Do you have a resource or can you send it out? I'll put it on it. I'll get it out. I'll put it in the show notes. We are actually getting close to running out of time. So it's been over an hour and this is such an important topic, but I want to make sure that um that Carlin and Michelle, that anything that we haven't asked you that you would like to add to this, we'd love to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

You would ask me about warning signs and whether I should share those. I don't know how appropriate that is, but I think some of you, some of your listeners may want to know that uh, first of all, if you experience someone talking, always take every threat seriously, whether it's I want to kill myself or I'm feeling hopeless or having no reason to live, or I feel like a burden, burdensomeness is one of the key factors. I feel like a burden. They need to be reassured that they're not a burden and that it's worth it. Feeling trapped in their own body or their own mind, unbearable pain, no one understands me, or behaviors. If you start seeing an increased use in alcohol use or drug use, or um they're actually looking for ways to end their life, or they're withdrawing from activities they used to like, they're isolating from people they used to enjoy, they're sleeping too much, sleeping too little, giving away any of their prized possessions, getting more aggressive, getting more fatigued, those are behavioral signs. And then, of course, your mood signs are depression, anxiety, loss of interest, feeling shame, feeling uh overwhelm. And the one we don't think about is relief and sudden improvement is often from having made a plan and thinking about now they're going to be out of their pain. So that's that's a big risky one. So those are those are some warning signs. And of course, 988 is a resource. It's 24-7. You can call them just to talk if you're concerned about somebody. And AFSP that Carlin mentioned is a great resource. Nami is a great resource. So those are some of the just resources I wanted people to have.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

And if we see any of these signs, what do we do?

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Call 988, contact their psychiatrist, call their doctor. If they don't have resources, get them connected. Um, is there a therapist that specializes in their current mental health concerns and get them some support? But even in the middle of the night, if you have these concerns and you feel overwhelmed, call 988, tell them what you're experiencing, and they'll tell you who's nearest to you. And it's national. So they know how to look up resources wherever you are in the country.

SPEAKER_04 51:18

Boy, that 988 is a real step forward for the culture.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Carlin, anything you want that's been unsaid?

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Probably a million things, but just reiterating what Michelle said. There are so many resources available that so many people aren't aware of. 988, put that in your phone. I tell everyone to put 10 favorites in their phone of people they could call if they're in crisis, so that you immediately know 10 people. And if the first one doesn't pick up, call the second one. Um, this is so cliche, but I tell everyone it is okay to not be okay, and it is okay to ask for help. Um, I was not someone who would ask for help. And um I am here because of therapy. I think my son is living a pretty okay life because I got help. So if you're in crisis yourself or if you've been through a crisis, um, don't be afraid to ask for help.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Wonderful. Well, I thank you. We all thank you both so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom and you know sharing your experience. Um you know, this week schizophrenia is in the news because Jake Lloyd, who played young Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars, his mom has come out to tell his story. And um, you know, I wrote a piece on that and put it on Substack. It was just like, my son is Anakin too. Like he was cute too. And no, you know, but you know what? There's a celebrity mom speaking out about it. So I I'm the more we talk about these things, the better. And uh coming up, we have shows about um serious mental illness and teeth. That is coming up. We're gonna have a live Ask the Moms episode where you can come on and ask us questions. And I believe we are also gonna have the producer of uh a documentary film called Nobody Cares About Crazy People, based on the book by Ron Powers and other stories that we've spoken about. And I've seen the trailer of the documentary. It's been many years in the making, and the producer's gonna come on and talk about that and those experiences from a dance perspective. And there's probably some resilience in there, but that's all right. We'll listen to it. Um, again, uh, thank you so much. Mimi, Mindy, anything to add before we say goodbye for that?

SPEAKER_04 53:57

I think we'll talk about this more. I think we should have a uh show talking even more specifically about how to handle these issues of suicide in relation to schizophrenia, because I can just hear the people out there asking for that. And I think there's you know it's a big subject and we need to keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

I I agree with that. I do, I wasn't gonna say anything, but that triggered one more thing, and that is I think we really should, because um, people with schizophrenia are not going to call 988 often. They're not going to call 10 friends, so that is a specialized um area of this. So we have a good, wonderful groundwork now for that next show that that uh focuses on what does work with people with schizophrenia.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Right. Well, we are schizophrenia, three moms in the trenches with three sons with schizophrenia, three books about it, and a podcast with amazing guests. Thank you for joining us. Hey, thanks for joining us for this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches with Randy Kay, Mindy Gryling, and Miriam Feldman. To get in touch with us or to learn more about our books, please visit our websites at Miriamfeldman.com, mindygryling.com, or randyk.com.