Matthew Gerstner
This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry.
Stephanie McDaniel
Welcome. Today in honor of both Women's History Month and our continuing celebration of BWBR's 100 year anniversary, we're taking a deeper dive into what it's like to be a woman in this industry and at this firm. How that experience has been shifting over time, and some areas where progress is still needed.
Stephanie McDaniel
I'm Stephanie McDaniel, President and CEO of BWBR, and your host for this episode. Joining us for the discussion today is current BWBR interior interior designer Nan Langevin, current principal Terri Ulrick and retired principal, Katherine Leonidas.
Stephanie McDaniel
Thank you all so much for joining us. Let's jump right in. First off, Katherine, can you tell us a bit about what the industry and the firm were like, when you first started your career?
Katherine Leonidas
Sure. And and just to put put a little framework to it, I graduated from University Minnesota in 1980. And in my graduating class, and I had to go out to CALA's website just to find this out. But there were 13 Women who graduated in my class, and I looked only at the pre-professional degrees, B Arch M Arch, because that was what was offered at the time. So 13 women, that represented about 11% of the graduates. I thought that was really interesting. I'd put a little perspective to that, you know, from 1978, through 1986, they were in the teens. So you know, just give you a little perspective of what that is, of course, now it's much higher. And again, that doesn't always necessarily mean how do women advance through the profession?
Katherine Leonidas
But, again, this is memory. So I've never, I haven't done any statistics on this one. But I started at BWBR 1981. And if I recall correctly, I think there were about 35 people on staff. And if I take out, what I would say, are the traditional support staff, front desk, the secretaries and the like. And sorry, Nan, if I take out interior designers who at that time, were really there were women, and they were really not thought of as much as they are today of the professional staff. Then we had about 20% women that were in what I call the professional staff. So there were three architects or four architects who were women. And we also had a woman who was a structural engineer. So kind of an unusual cohort of individuals. The other thing I'd say about 1981 is that the leadership was men, from very traditional households. A few, if any, of their spouses were in any working careers. Some of the PMs, their spouses were having professional degrees but really not at the leadership level. And our clients were primarily men. Yeah, clearly, that's all changed.
Stephanie McDaniel
Well, thanks, Katherine, for painting that really interesting picture. I think it's good to note that BWBR, at the time that you graduated and started, was significantly higher percentage of professional women, then were in your class at the University. So that is interesting to me. And then the other thing that I'll just note is looking at the NAAB website, women graduating with accredited architectural degrees is at 48% now. So roughly half and half. So that's that's good to see. Nan and Terri, what about that story resonates with you? And how do your own experiences differ?
Terri Ulrick
Well, it's interesting, because it's two-fold. Number one, in the university I was studying in the late 1990s, early 2000s. And at that point, there was more of that shift where it was, I don't know statistically if it was 50/50? But it was close. I mean, there were quite a few women in the program. But my first job out of school, I will not name the firm, was still predominantly male lead. Even the Project Managers were predominantly men. And so my perspective as far as in my first job, I should say in an architectural field, it was maybe somewhat similar Katherine in the standpoint that that there were women in the firm. But almost all leadership was meant until in 2006, when I came to BWBR and it was so refreshing because Katherine was one of the leaders at the firm. And I was so excited to know that there was a woman in leadership. And it really started to set the stage for what I felt as far as an opportunity in that BWBR was the right place for me. And then, as we've noted, throughout we've seen that transition, I mean, there's been more women added into leadership and really have grown in the firm, which is very refreshing.
Stephanie McDaniel
Yeah, yeah, that's great. Nan, how about you?
Nan Langevin
Well, a couple of other things really resonated with me. One was when Katherine said, "No offense, Nan." but she put me in a different place. I'm like, that's totally accurate. Because as an interior designer, which is traditionally a women's profession, being a woman, interior designer, in a male architectural world has always been sort of a second tier and not recognized as being an equal. And that has definitely shaped my experience in this field. Things have definitely improved. But we still struggle, I think, with the legacy of that viewpoint, in that thinking of, you know, having interior as not quite on par, not quite as connected. And so that statement I can completely relate to. So that's probably the biggest thing that I can, I can relate to in terms of what you were saying. But having mostly men as the leaders in the company, and that has definitely changed a lot as of late. But for most of my career at BWBR, it was predominantly men, you know, in leadership positions, even though in interiors, for example, the majority of our staff has always been women, the leader up until recently, it was a man. So that was always an interesting twist I thought. So yeah, those are some of my, my main thoughts on that.
Stephanie McDaniel
Okay, so this one, this question goes out to all of you, what progress do you feel has been made? And what do you think lead to that progress? Katherine, could we start with you?
Katherine Leonidas
Well, I think that, you know, there certainly there are more women in leadership roles. And I'm not ... In part, I think that comes because our client base also had a lot more women. You know, I think over the years, you know, the principals used to look across the table and see CEOs of corporations and senior senior vice presidents, and they were women. So all of our professions have started to be more inclusive. Additionally, I think at be BWBR, some of the men live led the charge on trying to be more adaptive to their home lifestyles. You know, it was a rare man, when I first started, who would say I have need to take time off of work. Again, most of them came from rather traditional households. But when some of them started to say they needed to stay home with a sick child, it was very brave, but it helped some of the mothers in the office, gain that support and give them the opportunity to be able to say the same thing.
Terri Ulrick
And Katherine, interestingly, I struggled a little bit this question, and I think it's because when I joined the firm, I reaped the benefits of what those previous men and leadership had done is that I never felt that I had to be apologetic for taking time off to to take care of my kids or be with my kids. I remember one time on a project meeting that we had a big client meeting, but my daughter was a little bee in kindergarten play. And I went to a leader and said, I didn't want to miss it. And it was like, go, go watch the play. And there was no, there was no guilt. There was no ramifications. It was just, you know, do what you need to do. And the project work still got done. And so I, in that regard, I'm very grateful for those individuals who led that way.
Stephanie McDaniel
Nan, anything to add here?
Nan Langevin
Yeah, in terms of progress, we have definitely made strides. And I think for me, the turning point was really when we started doing our equity work, and that really pivoted how my experience at work, I felt able to, you know, we were able to finally talk about the elephant in the room and how women had been treated and felt, you know, for years in a traditional, you know, environment and how that, how stifling that was and just be real about it. And it opened space for us to be able to be more ourselves, and bring our full selves to work. And it made progress, just in terms of not just the feeling of the space. But in terms of responsibility being taken seriously, I think it really did help set the stage for moving in a positive direction. So that equity training was, I think, a huge, huge game changer.
Stephanie McDaniel
Yeah. And I'll just add in here. Before that equity training, we've been having conversations about glass ceilings and various conversations throughout my entire career. And I think Katherine, we have you to thank for that, initially. But I remember in 2013 - 2014, when Sheryl Sandberg's book "Lean In", came out, we all got a book club together, and we read that book, and I thought, wow, this is great. It wasn't until we started our equity training, Nan, that you just mentioned that it became so, it hit me like a ton of bricks that that approach to equity put the onus on women to really do the work. Whereas the the later training, and I think certainly the the work of equity now is about everyone that needs to work to create an inclusive environment. And it's not just on women to create a gender equal environment. And so Katherine, I think your your comment about men stepping up to say, Hey, I can't be there today. Really were the first part of that. Okay, well, let's move on to the next question. What areas are still a struggle? And what do you think can be done about them? Nan, do you want to start this off here?
Nan Langevin
Yeah, I was thinking about this. And in terms of leadership, and even role models for myself in our firm. And although we have a ton more women in leadership, and the upper echelons of our firm right now than we ever have before, noticeably so. When I look at it in terms of role models, for me, let's say, as an interior designer, I can see very, very few actual interior designers who are women, which we, all of us at this time are women, who have actually sort of cracked that glass ceiling in a way. We have two principals who are women who started as interior designers. And we have two project managers who started as interior designers, one of which is also one of those two principals. So I do feel from the, from looking at the inequities of architecture and interior design, I do feel like there's some sort of a glass ceiling that we're hitting in terms of leadership.
Stephanie McDaniel
Absolutely. Now, I think we still have room to grow there. Terri, any insights here?
Terri Ulrick
And think, well, we've made a lot of progress with our equity work, and inside the firm, where I'm still seeing struggles are outside the firm. Not everyone has benefited from our equity training. And I know, recently, we were, a couple of us were at a meeting, and me as the the leader, the principal of the project came in, and one of our project managers who happened to who happened to be a man. And the CEO of the company, who also happened to be man, went to the project manager and introduced himself and right away started asking about things that were more of a leadership conversation. Asked about the fee, and the company, and our, the project manager, he just looked a little uncomfortable, wasn't sure how to handle it. But I mean, I interjected myself and introduced myself and things were fine, but it was a little awkward there at the beginning. Interestingly enough, and I don't know outside of the firm, I still see that as well. We, we recently had some work done on our house, and the contractor came and was talking about some finishes and was talking to my husband and he just kept saying she's the architect, I have no idea what you're talking about. So there's there's work, there's room for improvement.
Katherine Leonidas
That happened to Don and I one time. We walked in to a meeting with a new, actually, it was the owner of the building. And he he presumed that I was the interior designer, and that Don was the architect and the project manager. So it's an old story. And I took great delight in telling him no, not.
Nan Langevin
That brings up another weirdness about the interior design and architecture piece because it's almost like shameful to be an interior designer. And I know that's not the intent at all. No, but there is a weird, that I can't put my finger on that dynamic, but there is a weird dynamic about women architects who want to, like, defend that they're an architect. I totally get that and I'm behind that, and I agree with that feeling. And yet at the same time, as an interior designer, I'm like, how does that? What is that saying about our culture and our industry? Like, what is that?
Stephanie McDaniel
And I know from my inner inner work, when we started our equity work, I have done a lot of exploration. Okay, what is that when I get that feeling because I've been out on a job site, and the contractor assumes I'm an interior designer. I immediately get defensive. Yeah. And, and so I have, I have really tried to get to a place where I'm thinking about the interior design profession as something that is on an equal playing field. And that takes work because my conditioning is such that it's, it hasn't been, so that that takes some rewiring of by synapses.
Nan Langevin
Yeah, we've all been conditioned that way, even as interior designers. Yeah. I think that's a great point. In thinking about this little piece we just talked about, I, I do think it's a super interesting thing about women, and how women have also been subjected to sexist society, and all of us kind of been brought up to believe certain things. And that, that is actually a really nuanced, like, thing that traditions, you know, that may maybe you don't normally think about or talk it out on, you know, while you're celebrating women's achievements and stuff, but I think it's really ...
Stephanie McDaniel
Yeah, I do, too. I ...
Nan Langevin
It's a valid, important dynamic.
Stephanie McDaniel
And I think it's a bit meta. It's diving deeper into this issue than just celebrating how awesome we are.
Nan Langevin
Definitely.
Stephanie McDaniel
Well, let's move on to the next question. What particular things can firms do to promote and support women and clear away these barriers?
Terri Ulrick
I was reading an article recently, and this was talking about the industry, just the architectural industry architect design industry, we'll put it that way cuz it wasn't specific on architecture, interiors, or it was designed is our profession. And they were talking about women, and they were talking about one of the things that while society is moving towards, you know, the gender parity, and its gender equity is becoming, I don't wanna say buzz. But more and more people are kind of coming on board with it. We're seeing it like you, Katherine had mentioned, other firms are making comments or other companies have senior leaders that are now women. And we're seeing that becoming more prevalent, we have our first woman Vice President, you know, things are starting to change, just out there in the world. But one thing that they commented on is that where there seems to be a hold up in maybe some of the professional worlds, and particularly in design, is the disparity when it comes to care, in in the idea that traditionally whether women still do predominantly more of the care, not just childcare, it's, you know, parent parental care, and all that. And there was a study that was done that in societies where that care is more supported, women tend to be more in leadership roles. And I don't mean like to be supported, whether it's supported through, like some of our parental leave, or some of those kinds of things, but also just supported as far as encouraged where people don't have to be apologetic, they don't get penalized if they take time off from work to take care of a parent or something of that nature. And that there was a big awareness that Instasize it seems like whether the state or government promoted or whether it was just part of their culture, to not judge people for taking time off to take care of other individuals, because predominantly women still do that. And so it was just, I found that kind of interesting, because I don't know how that translates into what we do. But I think we're becoming more and more aware of it with some of our equity work.
Stephanie McDaniel
Absolutely, Terri. And I think one of the small things that we've done here at b2b are just recently is that we have shifted our parental leave from two weeks to four weeks. So that's something that we're excited about. Nan, anything you want to jump in with here?
Nan Langevin
One word that comes to mind when you were talking, Terri is value, like cultures or governments that value that care work. It has, it has a steam, it has value it has, its legit. Whereas we tend to think of it, we meaning our culture, tends to think of it as sort of a lowly, like, almost not important thing, or just like, you know, someone who's important doesn't spend their time on it or something. So the word value is what I kept thinking when we were talking.
Stephanie McDaniel
Well, let's move on to a slightly different topic. Who were your mentors, who inspired you, who supported you in your respective careers? And what did that look like? Katherine, can we start with you?
Katherine Leonidas
Well, certainly there were many who looked out for me, you know, within BWBR there, there was people like Larry Brodle who always thought found a project early in my career before I was even able to ask for different roles or different responsibilities, he looked out for me and he assigned me to some interesting projects. And I feel like I had an angel on my shoulder. And it was very, very genuine on his part, and I can certainly appreciate it. There weren't a lot of women, you know, that I would say mentored or I look to. Although I do, I will say, because I knew it was going to be asked this question, Katy Kolbeck, from Dunham really inspired me. When you hear her story of how she, you know, came into be, came into Dunham and how she really helped craft the Dunham than it is today. That was, to me, that was a very inspiring story. And I, I look to her, to that story and really appreciate.
Terri Ulrick
So when I think about this, I think about sort of the different phases in my education and career and I think from inspired when I was in college at the University of Illinois in Chicago, I was fortunate enough that Zaha Hadid was one of the guest professors there and I was blown away. I mean to have a woman who is of her character and creativity and then just being a woman who started her own firm in the 1980s it was just really inspiring as a young person in the profession, you know, just trying to get my degree. So that that's probably the person who most inspired me. But then as, like support throughout my career, I've been really blessed. Katherine mentioned to have both men and women that have supported me throughout my career. When I started, I actually started working as an architect for the US Army in Germany. And I'm gonna give them kudos. Johnathan Winkler was awesome. I was 22 years old. And he believed I could do anything and supported everything that I tried and even pushed me harder than I even knew I could go as far as what I could do in the role of an architect. And then when I came back, I've had many wonderful people that have supported me throughout my career. And two are actually on this, in on this side talk or podcast with us. I remember, Stephanie probably doesn't remember this. But the first time I ever met her, she was leading the Women in Construction. I was at my old firm, and I was so impressed that a woman was leading it. And then when I came to be BWBR, and you were here, I was blown away that I got to work with you after meeting you. That was a few years before I came. And then Katherine, like I mentioned before having such a great role model in a leadership position, and being able to work with you on a couple projects, I was just really fortunate and am grateful for those opportunities.
Nan Langevin
Well, I've had lots of mentors and supporters, of course, over the years. And when I think of role models, again, as I mentioned before, there aren't a ton of people in my position who have gone up the ranks at BWBR but I do feel like I've had probably my biggest supporters have come from my peers, and have really given me the the strength and the courage and the you know, hand holding or whatever you want to call it to persevere and keep going. And so when I think of support and role models, I really kind of think of my peers.
Stephanie McDaniel
Okay, so this Iis our last question here, What advice do you each have for young folks starting out in our profession? Architects, interior designers, everybody,
Katherine Leonidas
What I say to my nieces and nephews, what I would say to any young person, entering any profession, be a student of the game. Learn from your peers. Watch what they do. Learn what to do. Learn what not to do. And then find a way to be you within what you've learned. I think it's really, really important. But BSB be someone who just looks for learning opportunities everywhere. And it's the subtlest things. It's not something major, often it's very, very subtle.
Stephanie McDaniel
Yeah, Thank you.
Terri Ulrick
Interesting, Katherine, because I had, this one I actually gave that too on my list was, be curious, which builds off of what you had, because it's the best way to grow and learn. And, and don't be afraid to make mistakes. That's another way that we learn and we all make mistakes. And then just to follow your passion and be true to yourself. The people who succeed are the ones who are genuine.
Nan Langevin
You two both said that very, very well. And my beliefs are, you know exactly the same camp of both of yours and you know, really believing in yourself asking for help when you need it. Being curious and bringing yourself to, to the game. I think that those are hugely important and yeah, we're all really consistent in our message here, I think.
Stephanie McDaniel
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you all so much for your time and insights. I love hearing firsthand stories about other people's experience. And this kind of conversation can do so much to open minds to different perspectives, and help us all apply more of an equity lens to our everyday work.
Matthew Gerstner
This has been Side of Design from BWBR brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today. Give us a like, leave us a comment, or better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign@bwbr.com
