Bringing Spaces to Life Through Interior Design

Interior design has a massive impact on the way we interact with the spaces around us. It involves macro-level factors (like layout) all the way down to the details (like the finish on drawer pulls). 

That’s a lot to take on, and it takes talented, dedicated professionals to make it work.

Hosted by: 
Matthew Gerstner - BWBR AV Production

Guests:
Lisa Miller - BWBR Senior Interior Designer
Sara Biedenbender - BWBR Interior Designer

Music provided by Artlist.io
Siberian Summer by Sunny Fruit
DuDa by Ian Post

If you like what we are doing with our podcasts please subscribe and leave us a review!
You can also connect with us on any of our social media sites!
https://www.facebook.com/BWBRsolutions
https://twitter.com/BWBR
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bwbr-architects/
https://www.bwbr.com/side-of-design-podcast/

Transcript

Matthew Gerstner  00:10

This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry. 

Matthew Gerstner  00:19

Hello, thank you for joining us for this episode. I'm Matt Gerstner your host. And today, we're gonna be talking with some of BWBR's talented interior designers, digging into why this role is so important in bringing spaces to life. Joining us today is Lisa Miller, Senior Interior Designer. And Sara Biedenbender, Interior Designer, with BWBR. Thank you both for being here.

Lisa Miller  00:46

Thank you, Matt. I'm super excited to get the opportunity to chat with everybody and talk more about interior design.

Sara Biedenbender  00:51

Yeah, thanks for having us. We're excited to be here.

Matthew Gerstner  00:54

Thank you both. Let's just dive right in and let's start with the basics, you know, what exactly falls within an interior designers purview? And when when do you get involved in a project?

Lisa Miller  01:08

Yeah, that is a that is a great question. And you know, we only have an hour here. So I can only explain that much but ... so I love to actually, actually like  to step back. So if I am explaining to somebody what interior design is and what interior designers do, I love to just give someone a moment to say, Okay, where are you right now? You might be in your workplace, you might be in a doctor's office, you might be in a higher ed campus, things like that. And I like to say stop and look around where you are inside. Everything that you see in a building in the interior was probably touched by an interior designer. From this experience that you got in coming into a building, from the wall finish, from the lighting, from the carpet, from, you know, all of these elements, from the furniture, to the art, all of those things were really touched by an interior designer in some aspect, really, from a macro level down to a micro level. And like to think of it like that, I know we can go into like all of the things we actually do. But I would just like to explain that to people who don't really know much about interior design is like, those are the things that we think about, we're thinking about all of that, which is a lot. But ...

Matthew Gerstner  02:23

I was going to say that's no small, small group of things. That is a lot of stuff.

Lisa Miller  02:28

Yeah, that's a lot. And so then to answer your other question, when do we get involved? Right? The sooner the better. That's what I always say the sooner the better. But it's not just because we want to be involved there. It's really the the impact in our training that we have is going to be better utilized. So there's going to be better outcomes. The sooner we get involved, the sooner we can ask our very specific questions that interior designers tend to ask to clients to teams to coordinate, you know, all that coordination. So we love to get involved really early on.

Sara Biedenbender  02:59

Yeah, the more context, the better on every project, it makes you see the design and what people need, the clients need, from their perspective, and the most context that you can get makes you a better designer. And yeah every project, there's not a template, one size fits all.

Matthew Gerstner  03:17

That's absolutely true, isn't it? I mean, there's an entire assortment of project types that you all are touching on a day to day basis. It's not just, you're not just working on this one project type for months on end. You've got numerous project types that you're working on, all the time.

Lisa Miller  03:35

Yes, all the time.

Matthew Gerstner  03:38

So one thing that I love is the way BWBR teams talk about our holistic human-centered approach to design. Can you say more about what that means? And what it includes?

Lisa Miller  03:53

I would say at the heart of what we do, right are the people that use our spaces, right? That is why we do these, these buildings, they're not just for a cool picture, or a great view. I mean, it is about the people that use the space. And it's thinking about those people in that context, the people within the space, but it's also thinking about how our spaces are affected by cultural, demographic, societal influences, human behavior, that's also a huge one and what we're thinking about when we're designing spaces, and it's just also about how do our users and people using the space engage with the building? How do they interact with the building? And how are they really, also i love this one, inspired by our spaces? Not only are they there to do you know their work, or there to see a doctor, or there to see like, be a student, but we really want them to feel like they got something even inspirational out of their spaces. So I think that that goes into that whole human-centered approach, right? It's not just is one thing, but it's a holistic design approach to how people and humans are like, we're complicated. And we design for that complexity.

Sara Biedenbender  05:09

Yeah, I like to think of it as the goal is to make people feel better and more refreshed when they leave than when they came in to the space. Because we have the ability to affect every part of a human's daily life that's using your space, like everything from their mood to their health, I would say is affected by the things that we choose through design. And just as much as life is interrelated, and all aspects of the holistic approach to design are as well. And it's all about getting the right balance of all the priorities, depending on the project. And that's really what the holistic approach is, is to me,

Matthew Gerstner  05:45

You said something that I really loved. And it was that space can make you feel more refreshed. And I think that's something that I even notice, when I go into a space, you can tell when a space was thought about that way. But more importantly, I think you can tell when a space wasn't thought about that way.

Sara Biedenbender  06:07

Yeah, absolutely. 100 percent. Yes, yeah, you can tell when something's made you more chaotic feeling and can't find your way and you're stressed and the lighting and the you know, you feel all the different aspects of the design in a negative or positive way for sure. 

Lisa Miller  06:22

I do love that. I would also add part of like, the holistic design approach for me, is putting myself in someone else's shoes to like thinking about how that person experiences a space prior to us having all the answers right, when we're designing, but thinking about let's take, for example, a higher ed building, you know, how does a student interact with a space? How does lighting affect them? How does wayfinding affect them? How does daylight affect them? And then going through similar processes? How does that work with faculty? How does that person experience it? How does the guest experience it? You know, how does a potential student and a parent experience it? Right? Like, there's different things. And I think part of interior design is thinking about those. And I will say it doesn't mean that you shouldn't talk to people, and you shouldn't talk to your client, and you shouldn't like dig into actually meeting those people that are using the spaces. But I think a lot of interior designers really put ourselves in people's shoes and kind of walk through the spaces like that.

Matthew Gerstner  07:22

I love that you mentioned that Lisa, your specific example being higher education, and how you're not really designing for one type of person. I mean, most people would think education, you're thinking about students. But that's absolutely not the case. You're right. It's really there's the educators, there's the administration staff, there's the engineers that work in those buildings, there's so many different people interacting within there. That's such a wonderful way of looking at this holistic approach. So can you talk about how you bring together different requirements, user needs and codes, you know, and how that creates spaces that work for our clients? Because it seems like a lot of different things that you need to balance?

Lisa Miller  08:09

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there, it it is a lot of things to balance, and it is a lot but I would say the the core to making a successful design, right with all those requirements is collaboration and communication. Okay, so those are like, what I would say the core things is we need to collaborate with our other teams, because we're not doing it alone. So we have to kind of work with our codes, folks, and our, you know, engineering people and collaborate with them on ideas, but also communicate design intent. And I kind of skipped over a little bit on like, with the client side right here, but that's like execution of a design, you have to collaborate and communicate. But then with the actual client, it's about listening to what they're really trying to get at. And I always like to use this, that we hear what they're trying to say, right? Like, they're gonna give us basic requirements, like we need this, this and this. So we're hearing that, but we're also listening to what they're trying to tell us. And I think that's a huge aspect of interior design is listening to what they're saying. And also asking the right questions and trying to get at the heart of what they're trying to say. And I know Sara's probably dealt with this a lot too is, you know, you ask a question. They're like, I hate gray carpet or something like that. And then you know, you say okay, cool, like if if you were just hearing them, you'd say okay, no gray carpet ever, forever. We'll just move on. Instead, you can hear them and say okay, why don't you like gray carpet? What is that? Is it because the carpet you currently have is not maintaining as well as you would like it and like getting to the heart of why they don't like something versus just writing it off. And I think listening to those aspects, really makes you able to kind of balance all those other things you have to balance?

Lisa Miller  08:09

Yeah, I like that. And also, too, with constraints and different requirements, all these different things can sound like a lot. But to me, I actually liked the constraints. Because I think if you were just able to like design, whatever you wanted no limits, no, you know, no constraints or anything, I would get super overwhelmed by all the possibilities. And for me, the constraints give you kind of a space to work in, and like a puzzle to figure out. And that's the part I kind of like, you have to know a little bit about a lot of stuff. And you have to know where to reference everything that you need, codes and all the stuff that you need for a project. And then it's kind of like, okay, what can I do within all of this, and really cool innovative things can come out of constraints, or reasons why you can't do certain things. And so I really like the constraints,

Matthew Gerstner  10:54

That's a fascinating way to talk about it. It's kind of like a playbook. Kind of like a set of rules. And you're trying to work within that. That's kind of cool.

Sara Biedenbender  11:02

It's kind of like working backwards with the negative space.

Matthew Gerstner  11:05

I hadn't thought about it that way. I like that. Part of your work that might come as a surprise to some listeners is data collection and analysis. Data and analysis with design. They seem kind of opposed to each other. But how does data collection and analysis inform the designs and processes for you?

Lisa Miller  11:30

For us, we know that data collection and analysis equal better outcomes. So you see that in any type of project, right? And in the world, if you have information to back up your design, it will have a better outcome. So we do data collection with a lot of different ways. Maybe it's client surveys, on site tours, gathering feedback, you know, a variety of ways that we get that, even like site observations, we've done that before, where you go on site, and you actually see where everyone's sitting on a regular basis or things like that, to get the data to support design decisions. And how do  you analyze that data, and then you implement it in layout plan layouts, or you know, you're seeing, maybe a lot of people are hanging out by the watercooler or the work cafe. And now you know, that's more important to your design decisions, and you put more effort and design. I don't want to say like putting more design thought because I feel like we we also put design thought on everything ...

Matthew Gerstner  12:34

Right. 

Lisa Miller  12:34

But it's like making certain things more special from the data that you were given or the observations that you've seen.

Sara Biedenbender  12:42

We work on really complex project types at BWBR and so I think that's why we really do need research to back up what we're doing. And using our past expertise to be able to, that's what our clients are really looking to us for, I think in a lot of cases is all the research and stuff that we've done in the past really informs our design in the future. And that's really important.

Lisa Miller  13:08

I think Sara really nailed that. We do look back at a lot of the things that we've done in the past. And I think we also analyze that, right? It's not just we did that. But we say we did that, what could we have done better or what wasn't working or what was successful, and really taking that into account on the next one, and not just you know, replicating some type of work. But it's really an evolution of project types or project things that we're working with clients on a regular basis to make sure it's always the best that we can get it.

Matthew Gerstner  13:44

I was wondering, does some of the data analysis and collection, does that, does that also help inform looking at past experience looking at what we've done, not just the layout, not just those things, but the actual materials themselves? Do we look at how things were how things hold up over time? Is that something that comes into play when you're when you're doing this?

Lisa Miller  14:06

I think durability in general always comes into play? I'm gonna be honest here. I don't know if we have anything that we're tracking that as data, necessarily. But I do think it's questions that are asked during projects like, did that work well for you? And we're asking those with clients and facility people for those things like durability. And also just if you go to a site and you see, okay, maybe tile flooring wasn't the best for them, or maybe the amount of grout joints didn't work for what they're trying to do and it's not working. So I think we're asking that. I don't know if there's a way we collect the data formally?

Sara Biedenbender  14:45

We do have a lot of repeat clients to us. I think just maintaining those relationships with them and continuing to ask them what do you prefer and ask, do you have any bad experiences with certain products in the past? That's something we always ask clients when we're starting a new project. There's something you don't prefer, or prefer not to use, I guess. And so just really maintaining those relationships with clients is important. And I always wish I could see my projects more than I do always we work on things kind of all over the Midwest, and sometimes all over the country. And for me, if I can see my projects in, in, firsthand in real life, that's where I learn the most, or other people's projects as well. But really being able to see that stuff in person and how it's working is really important. For me, that's how I learned I'm super visual, obviously.

Matthew Gerstner  15:32

That is kind of a special thing, isn't it actually being able to visit our work? Go check those things out, see how things work for people. It's, it's, it's good. I think it's kind of a special, a special aspect of our field.

Lisa Miller  15:46

I love going on site and touring just as like a regular person, and talking to people and really asking them those questions like after projects is done, like, how do you like your space? And they don't know that I'm the interior designer? And I like, and I talk to them, I'm like, oh, what would you have liked to see differently, or something like that, where I kind of get the insider scoop a little bit more. And then I tell them, like, Oh, I was the interior designer on this project. And they're like, oh, my gosh, you should tell this person this or whatever. But I don't know. I think it's like a cool way to also look at your projects. We know people will tell people certain things if they they feel like, you know, they're not going to hurt your feelings.

Sara Biedenbender  16:29

Sure, yeah. Straight from the user. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Matthew Gerstner  16:33

Well I actually, I love that. It's, it's, you get an honest, unfiltered opinion in some cases. And that's great. That's great, no matter what the opinion is, because it's all going to help inform for future design. So materiality, sustainability, and performance design are increasingly important aspects of interior design. You know, Tom, we're talking about materials here. We're talking about all those things, how they hold up, can you talk a little bit about how you incorporate considerations for these into a project.

Sara Biedenbender  17:06

I'm a part of our offices Performance Design Group, we call it. It's our, basically, Sustainability Resource Group. And I was the champion of it for the past year. And then I'm also working on some more interiors focused sustainability stuff with Lisa and other interior designers as well. And basically, for us what it all comes down to with human and environment, environmental conscious centered design, is that it's super important because the planet and people are being affected by all the choices that we're making. And I think we're we realized that more over the past years, how much that does make an impact on everything. So when when we are selecting healthy materials, we think about basically these three things when we're evaluating stuff for sustainable, responsible attributes is; Where did it come from? What's the impact while it's in use or when it's installed? And then where does it go when it's life is over? And what are those impacts? So that's really what we based our criteria for selecting materials, and just sustainable design in general. So we really and it depends from project to project, we really focus on different considerations that are in line with a client's project goals or priorities. So we look at things like lifecycle products, recycling, reuse, and construction waste diversion, using non toxic materials, and embodied carbon impacts. And then things like water conservation, and social justice, and energy. So a lot of things are touched by and it's again, that holistic approach to all of it, and just really being intentional about decisions that we make, and how they can impact human health, environmental health and protection and just wellness of the world. So these are things that we really talk about and consider while we're applying our sustainability framework to our projects.

Lisa Miller  18:59

Like Sara said, we're we are circling back to to that human centered design. And we're just bringing full circle to what we talked about at the beginning. But thinking about how the health of the occupants is also impacted with the materials we choose. So particularly our interiors group, Sara mentioned a lot of the things that we're doing as a high level at BWBR, kind of more of a micro level with the interiors group, we've been trying to track a lot of this information, currently on our projects, because we know that if sustainability is an add on it, you don't do it as much right. But now we're trying to make it part of our baseline. And so every single project, we have a interior finish schedule, we are tracking certain sustainability data on every single product that we specify within our interior finish schedule. So our carpet, our base, our marker boards, all of those things, we have a section in our schedule that we check off five things right now. Oh, and those five things are does the product have an EPD? Which is an environmental product declaration. Does it have an HPD? A health product declaration. Is the product red lists free? Which we know red list is all of the, you know, nasty chemicals out there that cause cancer and health issues? Does the product have recycled content? And then does it meet acceptable which are low VOCs or zero VOCs. So that's right now what we're tracking and we're checking on it every single project, so that we can see where that project is, in terms of those five sustainability things right now. Ideally, we'd love to add some of those things Sara mentioned about, like, lifecycle carbon footprint, and have just even a larger spot where we look at every single material that's specified. So that's kind of our next couple years plan is to add more of that, but it's helping us really understand where our projects are at now. And how we can improve, you know, what materials, shouldn't we maybe be specifying? Because they don't really even meet our baseline? Right? Or where, where are the materials that we're using really often that are meeting that? And how do we kind of engage with those manufacturers or reps or things like that more to continue on with some of that sustainability data? It's now built into the project, right? Sustainability is not just something certain projects do. Like it should be every project,

Lisa Miller  19:18

There's two things that just completely stand out to me with what you're both saying. And the first one is that is part of the baseline. It is part of every project. That is such a great thing to hear. And the second thing is it kind of circles back to one of our previous questions, which was data collection and analysis. Because now that this is part of the baseline, and we are tracking five, measurable things, we can certainly use that as you're saying to track performance and the reliability and the health and safety of everything that we use. Those two things, just jump right off the screen at me, as we were talking. I absolutely love that.

Lisa Miller  21:25

Yeah. And we're working on taking all of that data, and then starting to track it on every project to like create charts, that we can see where we're deficit in, right, and like, maybe corner guards or something we use all the time doesn't meet any of our, our baseline, and then how do we work with those manufacturers? And how do we start pushing those manufacturers? Because we do know, they only do stuff if they're putting a little pressures put on, right? If no longer people are going to specify because it doesn't meet requirements, they're gonna be like, Oh, no, like, what are we doing? Right? So thinking about how we can use ourselves to see that data, and then push a little pressure onto these manufacturers to also say, we these are things we are requiring. And if you don't meet them, we're not going to specify your product.

Matthew Gerstner  23:01

I think that's such a great thing to hear. Because the industry in general, from from what I understand, they're not going to change what they're doing, if they're still making a profit. And it's up to the end users in a lot of cases, to demand that change. To demand. The ecologically sound, if you're at a restaurant bowls, take away bowls, you know, or plasticware, get rid of plastic ware, make it you know, make it so it's compostable. And to hear that, from the architectural standpoint, kudos hands down. That's fantastic. Because I, I don't know if you've seen that, or I should say, you have seen that you've seen that they will not specify or they will not create a product. If they're not being pressured or pushed to create something.

Lisa Miller  23:54

I would also say that part of some of the challenges we are facing in terms of sustainability and design is that there are products right that have maybe some of those chemicals we don't want that are the products that are the most durable. Right? That's where our our a lot of challenges are is like we have clients that are like I want to specify this because it is durable and lasts a certain amount of time. So we have to also consider inside of this realm of sustainability has also longevity and longevity of the material that you specify, you know, its always balances, right? There is no only one answer. It's like, do you do this because it will last 10 years. But if you specify maybe a more green product, and it only lasts two years now you're replacing it more often. So I think those are also things that we're really having to consider that it goes beyond just the makeup of a product but it also goes to how long it lasts, how durable it is and does it work also with the environment that we're specifying it in.

Sara Biedenbender  25:02

Yeah, that's a good point. That's what I was gonna say too just stepping back from all of this is, it's really important just to get everyone on board, from your client, to your construction team, to your entire design team. Getting everyone on board and having those conversations early in the project is really important to get these sustainability goals in everyone's mind. So they're talking about it through the whole process. And just in general, how much I've seen the market and what users and everyone are asking for now, from even five years ago, three years ago, when you were barely hearing about sustainability, Oh, that'd be nice, you know, pie in the sky here and there, there wasn't that many products yet that you could even really reliably use. And just in the last few years, I feel like we've been, you know, everyone's pushed for these products that people aren't seeing that they need to develop, I've just seen a huge shift in the market. And it's really about talking to your reps, your sales reps, and getting them on board and letting them know what your needs are. And the client's needs are. We've really seen a huge shift in the last how many years of sustainability efforts,

Sara Biedenbender  25:08

Right, and you said a great word in there, you said push them to develop that's, that could be a huge thing for any company out there. Yeah, if they were the first ones to market with a product that meets all those things that is, you know, sustainable, that's no small deal for industry. We've talked about a lot of things here, and there's a curveball coming in, we're gonna throw this in from the outfield. What is unique about interior design at BWBR? What is unique about what's done within the office here? There's many design firms out there, there's a lot of interior designers are out there. But what makes BWBR unique?

Lisa Miller  26:49

Yeah, love this. So I have been at BWBR for almost eight years. So I have had a lot of time here and I, you know, have been able to see what other firms are doing. But I think one thing that really makes BWBR unique, is we don't have traditional silos for market segments. So it's not five designers that only work on higher ed or five designers that only work on, you know, health care, we really have all of our designers have opportunities to work on all project types and market segments. And so you get a wider range of knowledge, being able to work on a wider range of projects and market segments. That also I think is is really unique is you can take those experiences from your healthcare project and apply them to your corporate project or your corporate project and apply to your higher ed project. They're actually more similar than you think. But a lot of things cross over. And now that you're seeing, you know, a wider range, you can start applying them. And some some ideas, you know, particularly like workplace has a lot of new ideas that are in higher ed or higher ed is in workplace. And I just think it gives you opportunities to do that and have a lot of crossover.

Sara Biedenbender  28:03

Yeah, I agree the cross pollination as I've heard it. I love it, when things click in my brain when I see different projects. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh, I can use that knowledge from that to apply here. And I would agree, that's, I think that's really awesome. And one of the reasons why I've really enjoyed working on all different projects, especially as starting out being a designer, I was really able to figure out what it is that I enjoy, and try a lot of different stuff along the way.

Matthew Gerstner  28:31

That's fascinating to me, because I guess I never truly realized that that was, you know, one of those unique benchmarks for BWBR. I didn't, didn't realize that most firms don't do things that way.

Lisa Miller  28:45

Yeah, it also allows a lot of us to ebb and flow with like, like with schedules and be flexible people's schedules. Because, um, if, you know, say, someone was super busy, and they have a variety of projects, and you maybe have some time, you can jump in on those projects. And it's not like completely different or out of your wheelhouse because you have been exposed to a variety of projects. And it's not like, you know, some other firms, they'll have a lot of work in health care, but their higher ed group doesn't have a lot of work. So you literally are just not doing anything, or you have time to kind of kill at some point where here, you can jump in on any of the projects that need help in trying to alleviate people. overworking. Right?

Matthew Gerstner  29:28

Oh, yeah. 

Lisa Miller  29:28

Which I feel like is also unique about BWBR is we really are maximizing work life balance and equity in our office and all those things. So being able to have that cross pollination, I think helps with some of that scheduling issues, which we know can be a problem.

Sara Biedenbender  29:45

Yeah, it makes us all more flexible and adaptable in general I think. 

Matthew Gerstner  29:49

Those are great points, because I think we've all heard throughout the industry, how busy things can be right now. And having that flexibility just can save a lot of people a lot of stress. We've touched on a lot of things today. Is there anything that we haven't talked about anything that I haven't asked that you might want to throw out there?

Lisa Miller  30:10

I will just say this. Yes. There's always more to talk about Matt. We can talk a whole series on Interior Design. And I feel like we would love to talk more to so always able to talk interior design, but I think interior design is really about human behavior and putting yourself in the shoes of someone into that space and thinking about it like that. And how do we design for the users? And how do we design to accommodate all of those different things that make up complex human beings? Right? How are we accommodating that the best we can, right? We can't be perfect and we're not gonna be able to, like, hit everyone's every single need. But we have to do that and then we have to balance you know, budget, durability, longevity, all those things and client needs. So I think our group does a really good job of it. And we talk a lot, and we are communicating and I think another thing that BWBR does is, if you have questions, there are people to help you answer those questions. And that's one thing I love about the culture too, is there's people that can help. And if they don't, they can find someone that might be able to help.

Matthew Gerstner  31:22

Yeah, so we'd love to talk about, you know, more specifics, this was obviously a little more high level, this conversation, just, you know, the field in general, and a lot of the things that we do within our own firm. But one of the things that was just said was, you know, the communication and keeping communication open, not only with the clients, but within our team, and that collaboration. Those are incredible things to hear, because that you've mentioned other things where you're working on multiple project types, so you're able to draw knowledge from different parts of the office with that communication. That's fantastic.

Lisa Miller  32:05

We really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and ..

Matthew Gerstner  32:09

Oh, for sure.

Lisa Miller  32:10

I love the opportunity to be, well, I'm very passionate about interior design. It is part of my life, and I'm constantly thinking about it. Also, if you ever see a group of interior designers, you probably can spot them, because they're probably touching everything. And they're probably taking pictures of like the bathroom. Like that is how you know there's a group of interior designers around because we're touching the walls.

Sara Biedenbender  32:36

Knocking on it to see what it's made out of, that's what I always get caught doing.

Lisa Miller  32:41

Knocking Oh, what is this?

Matthew Gerstner  32:43

Okay, so here's a question. Why would you be knocking on it? 

Sara Biedenbender  32:46

You got to see what it's made out of? Sometimes you got to see is it made out of wood? Or is it, just a few knocks let's you know, what it could be made out of? 

Lisa Miller  32:55

Or turning over the chairs. You're like, oh, do I know who that chair is? And you looked at the bottom because you're looking at who did whose chairs they are things like that. So ... 

Matthew Gerstner  33:05

Okay, Guilty, guilty.

Sara Biedenbender  33:06

Were forever cursed for noticing every single detail everywhere all the time.

Matthew Gerstner  33:12

Love it. So I I would say that you all have rubbed off on me a little bit because I'll confess to this completely guilty about being in an apartment building social lounge and loving the sofa. So I had someone come over with me and we flipped it over so you can look for the label on the bottom. 

Lisa Miller  33:30

Yeah, exactly. Now imagine all of your life. Yeah. 

Sara Biedenbender  33:34

Everywhere, everywhere.

Matthew Gerstner  33:36

I love it. I love it. So thank you both. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you, Sara, for your time, your insights today. Absolutely appreciate having you both on. We wish you both the best in what's coming up for you. And we hope to have you on again.

Lisa Miller  33:52

Let's do it. Thank you so much. 

Matthew Gerstner  33:54

And to our listeners, We'll see you on the other side. 

Matthew Gerstner  33:58

This has been Side of Design from BWBR brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today. Give us a like, leave us a comment. Or better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign@BWBR.com