The Practical Magic of the Design Process

Designers bridge very different worlds — creative, technical, and consultative — and there can be an air of mystery about the process and the various roles within it. For the latest episode of Side of Design, we invited some of the BWBR team to clear things up, including Sam Griesgraber, Senior Interior Designer; Craig Peterson, Principal, as well as Design Leader and Director of Design; and Steve Busse, Architect and Design Leader.

Hosted by: 
Matthew Gerstner - BWBR AV Production

Guests:
Sam Griesgraber - BWBR Senior Interior Designer
Craig Peterson - BWBR Principal, Director of Design, and Design Leader
Steve Busse - BWBR Architect and Design Leader

Music provided by Artlist.io
Siberian Summer by Sunny Fruit
DuDa by Ian Post

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Transcript

Matthew Gerstner  00:10

This is Side of Design from BWBR, a podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry. 

Matthew Gerstner  00:19

Hello, thank you for joining us today. I'm Matt Gerstner, your host for this episode. On this episode, we're going to dig into and demystify the design process, both the practical aspects and the creative side. We're joined today by members of BWBR's talented design team, including Craig Peterson, Principal, Sam Griesgraber, Senior Interior Designer, and Steve Busse, Design Leader. Welcome, everybody. Thanks for being here today.

Craig Peterson  00:47

Thank you. 

Steve Busse  00:48

Thanks, Matt.

Sam Griesgraber  00:49

Thank you. 

Matthew Gerstner  00:50

You know, before we get going, would each of you like to kind of introduce yourselves a little bit and maybe talk about your role in the design process? Sam, you want to get us started? 

Sam Griesgraber  01:00

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Sam Griesgraber. I'm an interior designer here at BWBR. My role in the design process, I feel like I wear a lot of different hats sometimes, but primarily interior designers we're client facing. And so we interact with the client a lot throughout the entire project process. We're leading meetings and workshops and really kind of carrying the client with us throughout the design process so that they feel engaged and a part of the process. It's not just something that we come and kind of sell a design to them and walk away, it's, you know,  carrying them with us throughout the process. So that's probably the primary role. But then also, you know, internally, working a lot with the rest of the design team, architects, project managers, specification writers, even our consultants, so making sure that our designs are cohesive and functional when it comes to MEP items. So a lot of different hats. But I'd say that's a fairly good overview of interior designers role in the process.

Matthew Gerstner  02:03

Craig, why don't you give us a little little insight on what you do.

Craig Peterson  02:06

Thank you. Yeah, Craig Peterson, Principal, Director of Design and Design Leader, at BWBR. And, therefore have a number of respond. But, and I actually consider it a privilege, the actual responsibility, the work we do on a day to day basis is really, you know, exciting and rewarding, and makes for a great day, every day. I think as it relates specifically to the design process. As a Design Leader we use we often say the Design Leader's role is to work with the client and work internally with the project team to take the project parameters, and turn that into a design that functions, and it's really, that notion of taking a big idea and turning it into a building that, again, serves a purpose, but also delights in some way.

Matthew Gerstner  02:58

That's fantastic. Sounds very inspirational in a lot of ways. And Steve, how about you?

Steve Busse  03:03

Well, it always is inspirational, isn't it? So I'm Steve Busse, also an architect and a design leader. I feel like I could just kind of repeat what Craig said. But you know, I primarily work on medical projects also do some corporate, educational, commercial work. I get involved early on in the design process. And I don't ... Well, Craig had a nice concise way to to look at it, right? But it starts with before our clients even have projects, right? So we're looking at master plans, helping them study their programs, you know, down to they don't really have a site, do we start looking for sites for them. So I think, again, as a Design Leader, I would work with clients very early, other parts of our team work with our marketing folks. And then once we start a project, it is really kind of fostering design, with the project teams, helping those teams out, finding good ideas, coordinating the owners/clients wishes with our design team, and then following through the process. And it doesn't stop after the concept image is done. Like Sam said, you know, you're, you're working through the whole process, including when it's under construction.

Matthew Gerstner  04:17

It sounds like there's, there's definite distinctions in your roles. And there's also that overlap, where you're working together to carry that design through. So as we're going forward here, and we're looking at design, and we're looking at the entire process. Let's start with more of the practical side of the process. Can you kind of walk me through like a basic evolution of a project from what I understand is pre-design forward. 

Craig Peterson  04:48

Yeah, sure. So I think the design process very traditionally and typically, and I think this is you know, sort of standard language for architectural projects is a three phased approach. It's schematic design, design, development, and then construction documents. And those three phases have, again, typical sort of parameters of what you're trying to achieve. At each phase. And schematic design really is just about the big idea. What emerges from the mixing of the need statement, you know, this space is, how many, sizes of spaces, all those functional requirements, as well as some goals for the project, you know, those might be aspirational goals that the client is ideally generating or helping us all generate. And then thirdly, a concept, you know, what is sort of the big story that we're trying to tell. And so weaving all of those together is really the the start of a design, and oftentimes, lots of options, different ways through which options, you know, best succeeds in meeting the needs of all of these parameters. Once we have that phase complete, then we have the essence of a design. And, and then design development begins with the refinement of that. Really that is taking what is developed in schematics, which can be still a little murky, and refining it to a point that at the end of design development, it's more or less a real building. And a key component, often of that phase is having a building design off that is priced in a meaningful way. The budget becomes a big play in the design development phase. And at the conclusion of design development typically, we want to have a really strong handle on what the budget is, what how much will this design cost? And then lastly, construction documents really is just the execution, making the building buildable, it's construction documents, that's the set of documents that the contractor and subcontractors take and construct the building from and design occurs at that phase too. We like to think that, you know, down to the down to the most precise detail that design has to be considered at all levels of the of the project, then we ultimately move into construction. And sometimes design is a part of that too, because invariably, there are unexpected twists and turns during that process that requires creative solutions. And like I said, So design becomes part of the construction process as well.

Sam Griesgraber  07:23

Yeah, I would say that for every project, like Craig was mentioning, there's always twists and turns not just in construction. But all throughout the process. I think we constantly remind ourselves like this is design things change, the client throws curveballs at us, we throw curveballs at ourselves, or at our clients. And so it's constant refinement all the way from schematic into construction, like Craig mentioned.

Matthew Gerstner  07:48

Steve, you mentioned in talking about what you do, you mentioned pre-design, and I don't think that's something that we actually hit on here yet.

Steve Busse  07:56

Yeah. And a lot of times, you know, our clients, we have a lot of repeat clients, some are savvy. And they'll come to us with a complete program, they know the exact spaces they need. They know the site that it's going to sit on. Sometimes they don't, right? They'll have an idea, like for an example, oh, I want to combine these three clinics, and they're all over the place in the city here. But we have a piece of land, we think it'll all fit on. And oh, and by the way, we want 40% More exam rooms, and we're gonna hire two new doctors, it might just be that, how loose is that? Will it fit on the site? So we'll need to test out the program. First, how much space do they really need? Can they work in the spots they have? Can you expand on that spot? Do they need to buy new land? So a lot of the process happens months before we actually have a real project, what we call a real project. 

Matthew Gerstner  08:50

Yeah, there's many, many things at play here isn't there, depending upon what the project is, who the client is. Sounds like there's lots of little parts and pieces that are moving around on this chess board. So within the design process, obviously, inspiration is going to be key. And so what I want to know is how do each of you approach design for a different project with fresh eyes? How do you walk into that, and not fall into, you know, a thing, and that's your thing,and that's what you do all the time? So how do you approach these things with fresh eyes?

Steve Busse  09:29

Well, Matt, first of all, one of the most awesome parts about our jobs, is that every project is different. Right? So looking into what is, if it's a new client, what's the history of the client, what really drives them? Also context where is it located? Is it in an area that you know nothing about? And I found that if you can Google it, you could probably find all that information, right. So you know, start by you think of what is the climate like in that region? What are the weather patterns? Down to, what's the geology? Are there any really cool land features there? And then icons in that community, right, because we design things that people are they're going to inhabit, they're going to be inside these spaces for 10, 20, 50 years. So how can we connect to that place? That, for me is a really nice way to start the inspiration. And even if the client is looking for something that's completely different from what the context is, I still think we need to look at that and understand where we're putting the space. Understand that community, and how the people that are going to use the building are going to experience it.

Sam Griesgraber  10:40

Yeah, so I think inspiration, and you know, researching and brainstorming go very close together. I think when you're starting a project, if I'm being honest inspiration to me, you know, a lot of people describe it as Oh, you have maybe like an aha moment, or it just comes to you. For me personally, I outwardly think that this inspiration is something that I struggle with a little bit, which seems a little ridiculous, because like I mentioned, it shouldn't  just come to you. But I think what Steve was talking about is having that research component really helps me find that inspiration for each and every project, even if it is a repeat client. I mean, every project is different. Even if it is a clinic, it is in the Midwest, you know, it doesn't matter. You're approaching each project a little bit differently. And so I think for me, finding inspiration in the research part is definitely in my wheelhouse. I'm a little, I go a little bit more detail oriented and my strengths and so researching and getting that background information is critical. So going on to even just websites and exploring similar market segments or the area, even flipping through design focus magazine, just to try to help me get outside of my own head really helps. 

Craig Peterson  12:00

Well, quite honestly, I think that's a great question. Because inspiration,  as it relates to fresh eyes, I think is honestly one of the biggest challenges in design, especially the longer you've been around. And you know, like, in my advanced age, I'll say, coming up with what might be considered something new, like whatever that means, I think becomes harder and harder all along. And part of the reason for that is oftentimes our design processes is under time constraints, and we're trying to work quickly and efficiently. And then that can often lead to almost intuitively going to solutions that have worked in the past. And that's not necessarily copying, but it's certainly locked in your brain someplace. And it just sort of re-emerges once again, whether that's something aesthetic, or functionally or performance wise, or whatever part of the design we're talking about. So it's also I think, just personal preference too. I mean, you can't help but have things you personally like and one after the other, once again, I think is also something that is hard not to do, needs to be identified, and you hope that you know, through I think, through the collaboration of your of your project team, you can, you know, find inspiration and new ideas through others. And that could be the client. And that could be like I said, team members consultants even. I would just throw down a couple of other sources. Another source of inspiration, I think can be it can be sustainability, sustainable best practices, and layering that into a design outcome in a way that expresses the sustainable practice. But it can almost invariably those best practices result in good design, sustainability and good design, and they go hand in hand. So that I think can be another source of inspiration.

Matthew Gerstner  13:47

That's fantastic. I mean, you all, my next question actually was going to be about researching and brainstorming and that kind of thing and you all already tapped into that because it's so intertwined into what you do. That's even that's so fascinating to me that, like, you know, the data side, the research, looking at, you know, hard and solid things in an area can help with the creative, which is really cool. So, when you've gone about your brainstorming, and you've got, you know, you got some ideas and you've been doing your research, then how do you go about translating that, and integrating, you know, kind of that in the inspiration and concept? Do you do each of you have your own process for you know, I've got my stuff together and you've got maybe you've got some photos or you've got some data? How does that translate for you? How do you make that a thing? 

Craig Peterson  14:41

Well, I think that could maybe be answered in a couple of different ways. I'll throw out one option, One way of answering the question is the translation of have an idea or a story that wants to be told and I think our design process in working with clients. Most of the time if not always the the story or the big idea is something that comes from the client or is related to the client. It can come also from community and sight. And Steve had mentioned a few things related to that earlier. But so translating this story to something built, to a space, to a building, to a series of spaces, to an experience, is really, I think, the cool part of design because it's taking something intangible, like an idea or a story and turning it into something that is tangible. And that's the translation of something subjective into, you know, something objective. And that can go a number of ways. I mean, you can be very overt, very obvious. And I think most of the time, we would consider that not the most elegant solution. If you walk into space, and it just hits you and it's like a one, kind of like a one hit wonder, it's just there for you to figure out and then you're done. That we think often I think we must, we would consider that to be less successful. I think we we like to strive for an interpretation of an idea into design that provides translation or interpretation offers that to people so that it can be, even for someone who uses a space repeatedly, it can, it can possibly feel different or look different or mean something to them differently every time they're in the space. And most of the time, I think too, that if it's, if a space hits you at at that deeper level, it sticks with you more. That's a memorable space, which I think is also a hallmark of good design. That it's a space that you remember, versus one that you just walk through, and you never think about it again. I think that that aspect of translating something intangible into tangible is really one of the most exciting parts of the design process.

Steve Busse  16:46

I think Craig hit on it, you want to have multiple layers, right? So you might have an awesome, abstract idea. And personally, I will start with, again, with the client interaction. I mean, what's their story? What are their goals for the project? We're really stewards of their idea. So creating that idea with them. But then the translation thing is, we've done this, we've got the experience, creating space from abstract things. It might start with just a series of pen sketches, and words, and clips and thoughts on a piece of tracing paper, that eventually has to become something you could show the client. Also that translation, you know, Craig mentioned, the one hit wonder thing. Sometimes we're too subtle with our ideas in that translation. I think we do need to have a story that the client can get excited about, I would define a successful concept as the client going in, you watch them give a tour of the space. And they can talk about what that concept was, how it started, and you just see him light up when they do it. But again, there needs to be a little depth to that, right? So that, I guess exploration, and wonder, and delight, it's nice if that all happens. And not just in the first space, you see. But as you walk through that building as you experience, throughout the seasons, light plays a big role, and also volume. It's things that we normally don't talk to the clients so much about, but in house, I mean, we're talking about those ideas with our team all the time. 

Matthew Gerstner  18:36

So  yeah, thereare a lot of things happening, like behind the curtain, if you will, that that will probably elicit some kind of a response from a client, it may be not something that is in their, their front of mind. But when they see it, they know it and they feel it. That's that's really cool.

Sam Griesgraber  18:54

There's definitely a balance when it comes to translating your design your concept into design. Because you do want it carried through and you want it obviously known like this was the intent and this, but you also want it to be subtle enough that it's like Craig was mentioning, it's not in your face. It's not just this thing like oh my gosh, what is this in the middle of the room? It doesn't stand out too much. It's subtle enough, but noticeable enough that when you walk into the room, you're like something about this just feels right. I don't know if you've ever walked into a space or looked at anything in particular, and you're just like, wow, I don't know what it is exactly. I can't put my finger on it, but it just feels really good. But internally for us when we're designing it. I mean, it's as simple as aligning, you know, a control joint in a gypsum board wall with a reveal with something else. But to somebody who's maybe not well versed in the design language they wouldn't perhaps notice that but that subtle move is what you know, that's what elicits that that feeling of something's working in this space.

Steve Busse  20:00

Yeah, they just feel it.

Craig Peterson  20:01

You know, I think we all As designers, we all consider the experience and also want to tap into the sensory aspect of that it's not just sight, it's sound, it's touch. And I think Sam, if you wanted to add some thought to in your role specifically, as an interior designer, you have the opportunity to impact, you know, how the space feels tack tactically with materials and things like that, that's pretty important.

Sam Griesgraber  20:24

Oh, absolutely, yeah, depending on what the space is, you want to make sure that the materials selected are appropriate and support the concept but are also functional to the space.

Craig Peterson  20:34

But that obviously impacts, I mean, materials impact sight, obviously, but also touch and acoustics, potentially even smell. So I mean, again, back to what makes a space or spaces amazing, it's often that sense of of the experience impacted by your senses, and creating that memory to so. The other thing I would add to is I, we've been using the word concept and big idea and stories and such, you know, related to this question. But I think it's pretty key to to point out to when we think of design holistically, we often lose the phrase something to the effect of, you know, good design is a balance of function, performance and inspiration. And I think, generically speaking, we would say, you know, a lot of these words we have been throwing out big ideas, stories, concepts would fall into that inspiration category. But it, it should be noted that it those those other components function and performance are equally important. The balance is important, because you can have a space that functions really, really well. But that's all it does. Or a building that you know, is technically sound and doesn't do anything, or a building that is designed around a big idea, but maybe it's not laid out very well. Well, that's not a success, either. So in as much as we've been, you know, highlighting these high level concepts, it's really the balance. That's the key.

Matthew Gerstner  21:57

That's a fantastic point. And that kind of leads into my next question for you all. So with this concept of balance, we're talking about, you know, the big design, we're talking about functionality, we're talking about technical side of things. Can you talk a little bit about how you balance things, like user needs, budget, schedule, code requirements, with the inspiration and aesthetics that we use to create spaces that will ultimately work for our clients?

Sam Griesgraber  22:32

Absolutely. I think the dichotomy of these elements is a tale as old as time. I mean, it's a part of the design process. I had mentioned there's curveballs throughout the whole project process. And so I think it's challenging, but it's also a little fun to take that as a design challenge of, you know, if we do run into budget issues or schedule issues, how can we still have that, you know, big idea and concept and design that we were talking about in pre design or schematic design? How can we still translate that into something that's, you know, within budget, and can meet that schedule? I think that's a great challenge as designers problem solvers to think about. And so I think, I constantly think to myself, you know, is there a more cost effective solution that can still, you know, meet similar results, won't compromise the design solution, but still give the client what they're expecting? And oftentimes, the answer is yes, you just you have to think outside the box and think more creatively about design. Because I mean, we're all creators, we're problem solvers. So these things inevitably come up. And I think with a little bit of brainstorming with the design team and the client, we're able to provide a cost effective and good solution still, by meeting those parameters.

Steve Busse  24:01

You know, if if the spaces that we create, don't function well, and don't work for the people that use them every day, it doesn't matter how inspiring the aesthetics are, or how durable the building is, if it's not functional. So it's really got to function first. But that function includes how people enter the building, how they move through the building, is it easy to get in there, is the wayfinding working? And a lot of those things are where those concepts play out. You know, it's that the experience of coming into the building and using it.

Craig Peterson  24:41

I liked the way Sam said it and I think Steve sort of reiterated the idea that it's all designed like all these things are designed we're talking about I think in some of these moments here. Some of our you know more big ideas and things like that related to design, but it's all design rolled into into one process. And another, I think Hallmark would be w br, which is probably a topic from a prior podcast, but project management would, I think, be a contributor to this process in the sense that we take that very seriously in terms of striking the balance through a design process that is highly organized, and is built to take into account all of these other aspects that can that ultimately influence the outcome of the design, you know, budget, etc. So that design process is, as I said, very intentional, through an approach that is  heavily guided by project management. But it also allows for that creative process to it's built into the system as well. In as much as it's organized, it is also fluid and able to cycle and test ideas and things like that. So in the best case scenario or design process is set up to do both.

Sam Griesgraber  25:55

I think that's why it's crucial to make sure you're listening to the client. And you know, carrying that concept through every step of the project. So that when it comes down to, you know, if it comes down to design versus budget, or something like that, it's not only the design team advocating for the design, it's now the client, because you've brought them along, now they believe in it. But we also need to make sure we're communicating the design as honestly as possible upfront as well, as well as kind of checking ourselves like, okay, the design, knowing that we're you know, in a tight budget, for example, or tight schedule, keeping those things in mind early on, so that when we are designing, we're not selecting materials, or we're not designing something that we know is a little bit out of reach for this particular project.

Craig Peterson  26:40

That can relate also to sustainability. As a firm, we take that pretty seriously. And, you know, have it built into, again, built into our process. But if I think a design can be grounded in some sustainable best practices, it's much, much harder to just yank them out. Later on, if there is a budget issue, we take sustainability serious enough that it shouldn't just be kind of an add on kit of parts. That's a plug and play type setup, but that the whole building is designed in a way that it is inherently sustainable, and that it can't be anything but that.

Steve Busse  27:16

Yeah, it's one of those things that's integrated into your thought process when you start coming up with these ideas. And like Sam talked about the budget, that's in your head when you're thinking about concepts, but code issues are also, and you mentioned that. And I think just from experience, having done enough of these, and having really, I have to say, great code experts in our office, that can help us out, we can look at the concepts, figure out how we can work with codes and make those ideas work.

Matthew Gerstner  27:48

I love the talk about making sure that sustainability is integrated into the process. It's not that kit of parks that you mentioned, that just gets tacked on, which could just as easily get removed, if it came down to a budget constraint. That's that's a wonderful thing to hear. So from what I understand, it seems like collaboration and consensus building play a huge part in this process. Can you talk just a bit about how you approach that whole process, and why it's so important?

Steve Busse  28:22

The first way I approach it, is realizing that all the work we do in this office we do as a team. And as Craig mentioned before, it's easy to get stuck in ways that you know, work, right? You know, things work well, and you've done some things that work very well. So getting those outside opinions, different ideas, always helps in that creative process. And then also, like you said, getting ideas from our clients and bringing them along. We are stewards of their resources. And we're creating these things for them, and their constituents, not for us. So that sort of, you know, stirs the pot, starts that collaboration, right in the very beginning. And I think if you work as a team and come up with a good idea, it's not one person's idea, it just becomes the idea and then everybody is working to make that idea work and that space work. And, you know, really come out with the best environment in the end for the client.

Craig Peterson  29:23

I think pulling ourselves out of our own sort of design mindset and looking at the design problem through the lens of the client can often generate new ideas as well. So I think I think real reliance on the client for inspiration is a way to make sure that new ideas emerge and you know, we again    have that as part of the design process in a very intentional way with brainstorming sessions early on in the process and, you know, try to get those big ideas out on the table early. And oftentimes those come directly from the client too. So that's pretty exciting stuff. I mean that's the way we get recharged on every project because every project is unique, because the client's unique, and there's just new ideas churning. I think another key to our design process, I'm gonna hand it off to Sam on this one, because it's really also about collaboration early and often through many disciplines in the office, too. So we find that to be really key as far as having our own team well integrated from the start.

Sam Griesgraber  30:37

Absolutely, yeah, I'm thinking about, you know, even in pre-design or schematic design, where, you know, if, for example, if it's a hospital, and we have medical planners on board, I think it's really critical for specifically an interior designer to get, you know, integrated with them so that when they are laying out, you know, the functional programmatic elements of that hospital, we come in with a different lens than maybe they have, which is something like how is the staff using the space? How is, How are the users or patients using the space? And how are they collaborating together? And what does that flow look like? Is it different than what the medical planners looking at as more of a functional, practical scenario versus something that does this feel good, though, I mean, we come in and look at it in terms of a three dimensional space, not saying that they don't, but I think it just adds another layer of, of design to the planning on that, if we weren't included early on, may have that, it will eventually come in. But obviously having it earlier on is easier to integrate than trying to rework a plan based on experience.

Craig Peterson  31:46

Yeah, if you try to create a graphic to describe what Sam was talking about, there at the early stages of design, it would, it would have to be something very messy and circular and, and murky, and that is, in fact, it's not a linear line, for sure. Because that would that would result in something less inspired. And design has to be messy at the at the early stages, because you're juggling so many different and at times, perhaps competing ideas, to try to resolve all of that mash up of information and inspiration into a singular design solution. But if you don't do that the design will not have much richness, it will just be that straight line results in something less inspired, that the messiness of the early stages of design creates the layers that Steve mentioned earlier, this interest in the design

Steve Busse  32:41

And there's iteration and iteration and iteration. And you know, it gets better every time.

Matthew Gerstner  32:47

You're talking about collaboration. And we're talking about working with in house teams, we're talking about working with our clients and bringing all of these ideas together. And what about the process at BWBR do you view as unique? What what do we do that is different?

Craig Peterson  33:12

Well, it's a pretty, it's a challenging question because I think there are a lot theme themes and processes built into design that I'm sure all architects and designers and designers in other industries even utilize. I mean, there are tricks to the design process that everyone employs, so we know that to be true. So to come down and say, Well, what is it that BWBR does differently? There's probably a lot of things we do that are the same that other other architects and designers do. But I know from from what clients tell us there are a few things at least  that rise up when  asked and one of those is that we are told we are very good listeners and and I think that speaks to much of the intentional design process process at the early stages of design, the brainstorming and visioning exercises that we use. The way the questions are asked. The types of questions that are asked. The curiosity that's layered into those questions. A serious effort at programming, which is all about diving into functional things, but still, that's important. And if you're not listening, you're missing out on some of the nuances of how they either how a client is presently working, or how they wish to work together. That those are, those are things so I think one aspect is listening. And again, clients also tell us that they appreciate our approach of bringing forward options and a study different concepts, you know, and providing the opportunity for the client to to help evaluate and provide feedback on those solutions. That doesn't mean necessarily we show up with five ideas and just say, hey, what do you think? But there's that least a transparency and here's what we studied, here's what we've examined. Here's what we looked at, you know, what do you think and then the feedback is provided and out of that might come a sixth option that is, you know, a better solution altogether anyway. But what we do not do ever is show up with just one idea. Tha we somehow went in the back room somewhere came up with one solution show up for the client and say here it is, this is all, this is it, here you go. Like I said before, I think we do probably a lot of things much like others do. But those two ideas, at least are things that we have heard from our clients that that they say are unique about BWBR and things that they appreciate.

Sam Griesgraber  35:40

Yeah, I think to what Craig was saying, you know, listening, I think that's, you know, it's why a lot of our projects are with repeat clients, or referrals from clients because of how much they trust us, I think, you know, bringing them along that entire design process, and having them engaged every step of the way, it really adds that layer of trust, and you need that from the client.

Steve Busse  36:05

So I have worked in a few other firms before. And I've also listened to some presentation and PR clips about how people say, Well, this is how we're different, but you probably some of them before, and I think Craig's point is good. You look at the profession, what we do, there are a lot of similarities. But the culture we have here is really a culture of collaboration. And it is not, oh, I'm going to compete against Craig, right? We're going to make things better for all of our clients. And yes, we listen more. And everybody says they say they listen. But look at our repeat clients, like Sam said, you know, our focus is on collaborating with those clients, getting the best projects for them. We're not really interested in marketing, one, you know, big one off projects and going away. We want to make those connections. We want to have that trusted advisor role with our clients. And frankly, working with those people, you get to know those people and those folks, and it makes work much more joyful.

Sam Griesgraber  37:13

And easier, honestly. You know, once you build that trust with the client, you know, you have that relationship moving forward. So when you do have that next project, the design process goes a little bit more smoothly. Like yes, the design is different, but you have that rapport with them. And you can start bouncing ideas more comfortably around each other, instead of us just presenting a design to them and them feeling like they can't say anything.

Craig Peterson  37:41

You know, just threw out some other evidence that suggests that yeah, we do truly listen, and that, you know, our clients are participating with us in a design process. And that would be if you look at our portfolio, I think you do see a lot of diversity. Sure, you do see some similarities in projects in part probably becuase we are talking about commitments to certain markets of design, you know, and those types of buildings tend to have some similaroties, but by and large, and especially when you get into interior space, where we're I think the story can be told it's pretty deep. I think if you did examine the work we do, you'd see not a BWBR style, but a style that reflects each and every client that we work with, and so that process can help create the diversity that we talked about earlier, that is part of the inspiration process, but but also the truly the the buildings ultimately are the clients buildings, not our buildings. So those buildings should reflect and be something that our clients can be proud of,

Steve Busse  38:46

You know, we all get joy from seeing these spaces built, right? And so with, with that experience, we know what it takes to get the things built, right? And you want to help those clients get the best space, but also you walk into something we know it feels good, and the client knows feels good. There's so much joy in that. 

Matthew Gerstner  39:13

That's so true. 

Steve Busse  39:14

Yet there's so much collaboration that needs to happen.

Sam Griesgraber  39:17

Yeah, like obviously, we want a successful project for ourselves, but I think more so it's we want to make sure that the project is successful for the client in the end. And that I think gets, at least me very excited when I get to see the end result and seeing and I think Craig or Steve mentioned having somebody walk through their their finished space with them, and seeing just how appreciative they are of what we do. I think it's incredible. Very fulfilling. 

Craig Peterson  39:50

You know, one question that didn't get asked because we're touching on it right now is how does equity and a commitment to equity influenced the design process?

Matthew Gerstner  39:58

Yeah, that's a great question. How does it?

Craig Peterson  40:00

BWBR has really committed ourselves in major ways to equity, you know, gender equity, social justice, things like this that influence the way we work together, but also influence who we are as a firm and how that impacts the design process, I think is in two ways. One working with the client is making sure that the design process with the client is is one that that uses an equity lens of equity. That could mean that we want, you know, for example, all the voices at the client table needs to be heard, we don't just always let one person talk, you know, things like that, or if it's a, if it's a client that is actually serving the community in some way, let's get the voice of the community into the process too. Let's have some brainstorming sessions with people that will use the facility, you know, or at a Higher Ed project, it might mean bringing students into the process. Things like that. So making sure voices are being brought to the table from the client side. Internally, I think it speaks to that, that comment that that Steve and Sam both mentioned regarding just a design culture. We seek the the involvement of all project team members. And that's really key in so many ways. I mean, the list is lengthy. You know, why is that a good thing? And, I mean, it just starts with personal job satisfaction, too. I mean, if, if everyone feels like they're contributing and being allowed tribute, that just makes for a better environment from the get go. And then other other benefits come right after that.

Steve Busse  41:40

You talked about inspiration, right? That inspiration, that's a huge benefit of having all those voices, everybody on the team contributing. Because you never know when you're gonna get the best idea or where it's going to come from.

Matthew Gerstner  41:52

So we've really covered a lot of ground today on design, what it takes, who the players are everything that's going on in the background, in the foreground. And it's been really inspirational a lot of ways to me and I really appreciate all of your time today. I can't thank each of you enough. 

Sam Griesgraber  42:12

Thank you, Matt for having us.

Craig Peterson  42:14

Yeah, it's been fun. It's been a pleasure,

Steve Busse  42:16

Always good to see you, Matt. Thank you. 

Matthew Gerstner  42:18

And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We will see you on the other side. 

Matthew Gerstner  42:23

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