Coming to Consensus: How BWBR Designers Approach Building a Common Vision

You’ve heard the phrase “too many cooks in the kitchen spoils the broth.” Do too many stakeholders in the planning room spoil the design? That depends on how you approach the challenge.

Hosted by: 
Matt Gerstner - BWBR Podcast Host and Producer

Guests:
Stephanie McDaniel - BWBR President, CEO
Nathan Roisen - BWBR Senior Project Planner

Music provided by Artlist.io
Siberian Summer by Sunny Fruit
DuDa by Ian Post

If you like what we are doing with our podcasts please subscribe and leave us a review!
You can also connect with us on any of our social media sites!
https://www.facebook.com/BWBRsolutions
https://twitter.com/BWBR
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bwbr-architects/
https://www.bwbr.com/side-of-design-podcast/

Transcript

Matthew Gerstner  

This is Side of Design from BWBR. A podcast discussing all aspects of design with knowledge leaders from every part of the industry. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Hi, and welcome to Side of Design for BWBR. I'm your host for this episode, Matt Gerstner. On this episode, we'll be digging into the process of consensus building in design and discussing the challenges and opportunities that can occur when planning for multiple stakeholders who must agree on a common vision. Joining us from BWBR are Stephanie McDaniel, President and CEO, and Nate Roisen, senior project planner. Thank you both for joining me today. And thank you for actually being here in person, our first in person episode, I love this. This is so cool. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

So fun.

Matthew Gerstner  

So let's just get things going to start just kind of wondering how would each of you define consensus in design planning, who'd like to start? 

Stephanie McDaniel  

I can start, I think about consensus as a way to build agreement on a direction. And it's really important to mention in this idea of building consensus that it's not all rainbows and unicorns. In an effort to build consensus, it's really important that we dive into all of the hard stuff, ask the hard questions, share multiple options, really make sure that we're embracing and building consensus early and thoroughly. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay. Okay. What's your take on it? 

I

Nate Roisen  

What Stephanie said, I think the only thing I could add to that is, is that that term vision that you had in the intro, that feels really important to me. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay.

Nate Roisen  

You know, groups of people that are coming together, they each have their own baggage and getting them focused on the same thing, is what we're working towards, is is a really key part of the process.

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay.

Nate Roisen  

And there's just so many different directions that an individual in a group can go, and or maybe better way to put it can think that they're going. And so in order to kind of gather everybody around a single, a single goal or a single endpoint, that idea of the vision is something that that is just incredibly important to establish upfront. 

Matthew Gerstner  

It certain certainly sounds like it really does. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, so glad you mentioned that Nate. 

Matthew Gerstner  

So when you're thinking about consensus and design planning, how do you approach collaboration and planning with consensus building as the goal. 

Nate Roisen  

I think, the idea that definitely mentioned before there, developing options. For me, it's doing the work of showing everybody that we've really investigated a number of different ways of going at a particular issue, problem, solution. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay. 

Nate Roisen  

If people in the group can trust that we've done our homework, without them in the room, they will be able to coalesce around an idea with us in the room and have it come together, where you can say, I see what you're saying, but we tried to do that and it just didn't work for this reason. And building up that level of trust upfront can can really only be done if they believe that we're actually working as hard as we are behind the scenes. So to me, that means you come up with with lots of ideas, and you test them out and you show, you try to bring the people in the room along in your own thought processes. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay, so I'm here I'm hearing you don't just show up with one idea. That does not the way things go, right? 

Nate Roisen  

I mean, you can sometimes sometimes there's, there is one idea. And that's the only one that makes sense. Even in that instance, sometimes it's good to have multiple ideas to show why they don't work as opposed to the one that you think does. But when you're working with a larger group of people, I always like to be able to say, tell me where I'm not seeing something correctly, because we always come in with oh, we think this one is the best, but most often we don't know the perspective that other people are going to be bringing to the project and to our work. So if there is that editorializing to say, I think the second concept we looked at is the one that most effectively meets your needs for these reasons. Am I wrong? Am I missing something? What is your perspective that might change that conclusion? 

Matthew Gerstner  

That's fantastic. 

Nate Roisen  

Yeah. And Nate I want to pick up on on that last little comment there. Does this meet your needs? I think what we do before bringing these options is that we listen really intently. So we've developed that vision that Nate mentioned, and we've worked together to build that vision. And we've also listened really intently on what the needs are for the given project in the program in all aspects of the project and we listen to all of those ideas. We play them back for the client and the participants of the workshop, these are generally in a workshop and then we bring those ideas in, and our goal is always that we're finding ways in the options to meet the needs that the client has articulated. 

Matthew Gerstner  

That's all very, very interesting. So what I'm really wondering now is, how do you ensure varying viewpoints are heard and considered in these meetings? 

Stephanie McDaniel  

That's a great question and it relates closely to our equity work, certainly listening really intently. But I think also understanding all of the perspectives of the individuals that are in the room trying to understand the power dynamics that are going on. We also, even before we've set up the meeting, try to make sure that everyone is represented. And so as we look at the list of attendees, if there's a voice that's missing from the conversation, we want to bring in that conversation. We often will use ground rules, so that everyone is knowing how to engage in a in a conversation trying to create psychologically safe space. And then I think, for us as planning individuals practicing self awareness for ourselves, so that we can be truly active listeners and setting aside our our individual biases. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. Right. So it sounds like there's been a lot of equity work going on at the firm. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah! 

Matthew Gerstner  

That is really benefiting, consensus building as well. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, I think so. I think so I think it's been really integral. 

Nate Roisen  

Yeah, I had when I started attending meetings and going to client meetings, the power dynamics with certain clients I was working with at that time, were very top down.

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. 

Nate Roisen  

And there's one in particular that I can think of that when this client said, we're doing X, we did x, right. And that's something that is part of a specific organization and their culture. And I think the thing, Stephanie, that you came up with about, we have to understand the culture of our clients. Most of them, if they are set up as a command and control type of an organization, they probably don't want to be. They probably recognize the limitations in that approach. And they're bringing the desire to have many voices heard. I've been around leadership level people that get uncomfortable when others aren't talking. And they say why? What do you think? They'll they'll look across the table and say, share your opinion, you're here, you have a voice. And so us being able to facilitate that process and understand the advantages that come from equity and come from a diversity of viewpoints, I think is a helpful mindset when you're sitting in a room or with a group of people that all eventually need to agree on something. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. Well, it certainly sounds like there's, there's a lot of benefit to making sure that all the voices are heard within the space, just for the outcome, for a good outcome for a project. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, and I think the consequences of not hearing every voice are really could be really detrimental to the project, we might make a mistake because a certain viewpoint has been missed. If we catch it later on in design, then we've got to backtrack. And that's extra work for everyone involved. So it really behooves us to make sure that we're hearing all of the voices early on in the process and building that solid consensus. 

Nate Roisen  

Well, it also makes us confident when we do go forward to a later stage of design. You know, the the project team starts kind of small, right, there might be three, four or five people working on it together. And eventually if it's a large project, it's going to be 40 people. And so in that upfront stage of the project, having the confidence to say this is what we're doing. We have looked at all the ideas. We have stress tested them with our client. We've heard all the voices. Okay, 50 people go! That only helps the efficiency of the of the process later on down the road, where they don't have to second guess the decisions that they're seeing on paper as the baseline or the the vision that they're working towards. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, I love that I love that we're all moving forward. With such strong confidence, as Nate says, the client can express why this is the right decision. Everyone on the team can describe why this is a good decision. We can relate that back to our vision. And then when we get to a place where we need to make our decisions and align to a budget, Value Engineering is a term we use, then it actually is easier because everyone is so committed to what the real reason for this project is or they're really just enthusiastic and excited  about a given project. 

Matthew Gerstner  

That's great. Buy-in this is probably one of those things that if it's not there, the project is going to be just, it's going to be difficult.

Nate Roisen  

 Well and on our on our client side. There. We're only attending, you know, an eighth of the meetings about the project, right. The people that are in the room with us or then going up to their bosses, or they're going out to this committee or that committee, and they're talking about the project without us around. And, you know, sometimes it's better if we are around, but if we can have them with a great sense of buy-in, then then all the rocks that get thrown at the project by all those people outside, they have a good answer for it. Why aren't you doing it this way? Well, we looked at that, and we decided that because we're approaching the project, the way you're seeing it here, it has these advantages. That can really also defuse a lot of issues later on in the in the project where someone comes flying in off the top rope and it's like, you didn't look at this. And, you know, that happens, and we deal with it. But if we can avoid it, better for everybody.

Matthew Gerstner  

No, definitely. So to get buy in, and to get this consensus in design planning, what factors and skills do you think, play a role in building consensus? 

Nate Roisen  

Clear communication to me. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay. 

Nate Roisen  

I think when you're .... buildings are inherently very complex things, we have all these considerations, building codes, constructability, cost, performance, beauty, you know, all these different factors that kind of, can then you know, ultimately manifest into a project. And I think that if we are able to clearly articulate why something is, or how something is meeting all these different factors, then people can kind of really see what we see, when we're looking at a, at a proposal. You sit and stare at a drawing for 18 hours, and you really know it, but then you flash it on the screen in front of somebody, and they're seeing it for the first time. And you can't really know how they're looking at it. You don't know what their eye goes to first. You don't know what they're seeing or not seeing or what baggage they might be bringing. So the ability to clearly say, we think this is a good idea from a cost standpoint, or this might be more expensive, but look at how beautiful it's going to be. Those are those are the things that really help the client come along with us as we're as we're presenting these ideas. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

And I'll add in a couple on the other side of that communication. And that's the listening and listening with empathy. So if we're really trying to understand where they're coming from, then we can do as Nate said, bring back those amazing designs. I would also offer that, on occasion, challenging the client a little bit, or the stakeholders a bit. When we you might sense that they're not, they're not really being forthcoming with their opinions, you really try to draw that out. Or if you're not sure that they're sharing all of their true and honest feedback, we really want to hear that early on in the process so that we can, we can just get that all out on the table. And I think in my experience, if there's something that you think is festering, it's best to just try to probe into that. And I'll even ask,  I'm sensing some, some odd energy, I might just be me, but is everybody loving this?  Because we don't want to move forward unless everyone's on board with this design. And so sometimes that's a flyer, and it's a miss, Nope, you're wrong. We all love it. And sometimes you pull out something that people that you didn't realize was there. 

Nate Roisen  

Yeah, I think that that sense of the room, that sense of people's body language is, and it doesn't have to be in person, but you know, the virtual room maybe is, is just really important. Because a lot of times people are telling you what they think even if they're not saying it, and it's the raised eyebrow, or it's the stare off into space on the side of the room where you can tell, they're checking their email off to the side, or if it's a virtual meeting. Any of those things are really the cues that a locked in group has a different look and feel from one that that might have some disharmony. And I liked the I liked the way you talked about ripping the band aid off, because it is inevitable if you get it done with a meeting and you're sitting with your colleagues talking about how it went and and you you say I'm not sure they're on the same page, or I'm sensing something under the surface or it's there, you know. We kind of have an interesting job, and that we kind of really get a sense of what all of our clients are like and how they operate and what the underlying conditions are. And you've got to get at those if you're going to come up with something that everybody's on the same page on. 

Matthew Gerstner  

So you both mentioned, like clear communication, honest discussion. But what I just heard from both of you is one of those skills is being able to read people a little bit too.

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Like reading the gestures. It's not what they're saying. It's how they're carrying themselves in the room. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, yeah, that is for sure. And I think I'll use an example, Nate and I worked on a project together, the one and only project that we've worked on together, and we were supposed to travel to a client's site. There was a big snowstorm and we were relegated to do meeting virtually most of the rest of the client group was was in person. And we thought the meeting went swimmingly, and everyone was we're building consensus on this design, and later that afternoon, we get a call from the the main client contact, and, and that person that's like, What the heck just happened? We did not build consensus. What did you what what happened? And it was we were not reading the room well enough. So the next meeting we were, we were in person. And that was helpful. Now, we do lots of great meetings, virtually. But the hybrid is the hardest to read when you've got five or more people in a room on a small screen. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Rather than being able to see everyone's face in a huge box. That's the hardest one to read. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Sounds like you really have to tune in to some of the individual faces, while you're still trying to present to the room at times. That sounds it does sound like it could be a little bit more of a challenge. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah. Yeah. In the hybrid world. 

Nate Roisen  

Well, in that specific example. You know, that's where, as we get to the question of setting up, you know, how do you set up the meetings? Or how do you set up the project? 

Matthew Gerstner  

Yeah. 

Nate Roisen  

I think it's really important not to go into a meeting, saying, Okay, here's our meeting. If we don't leave with consensus, we're done. You know, the boats gonna sink. And that's where there's a sequence of meetings. Right? 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. 

Nate Roisen  

You can afford a meeting where you leave and not everybody's on the same page, or you leave and you and you find out afterwards that you miss understood a situation, or maybe that they've had a chance to think about it and talk about it amongst themselves and have changed their mind. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

And that's fine. 

Nate Roisen  

And that's fine. That's why it's a sequence of meetings where we're trying to get, we're trying to present things and hear feedback two or three times, or maybe even more, so that there's not so much pressure riding on us nailing it that first time. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

That is so true. It really is an iterative process. And we like to show a content, we get feedback, but we also give people space, because some people process immediately and they know they love it, or they know they hate it right away. Other people need a little time to digest and ruminate and they want to study  the plans or the drawings, and then you come back the next time, and they've got some really great comments that we want to be able to incorporate. So it is an iterative process. And that's really important. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Being an iterative process and trying to read a room from either virtual world or in person. Do you ever run into times when consensus is a bad thing? 

Stephanie McDaniel  

I like to say that democracy does not yield good design. And so I think if we were to just purely put it to a vote, we would not develop good design. But from my perspective, consensus is, is hard. And it comes with some hard dialogue and possibly some conflict. And so I don't think that if you actually achieve consensus that it's a bad thing. But I don't want us to mistake consensus for democracy. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Okay. 

Nate Roisen  

I had a scenario with a client that had definitely a clear leader. Definitely a big shot in this company is coming forward with this is a project that I feel very strongly about. Went through a visioning meeting went through an initial programming meeting with this person in the room, and then the meeting where we're going to actually present our design ideas, as many busy people do, can't make it so there's some other more pressing things. So now we're presenting to the eight or nine other people who are also very important people, their voice is important, but the key person is not in the room. And to address that we gathered the feedback just as though he was there. And then a week later, when we we're able to get on his calendar, we went back and presented and there's, you know, we kind of developed an idea of what people wanted in that first meeting and had an idea of the direction and it would have caused a few problems if the leader had chosen something completely at odds, right? So we were a little nervous going and talking to him. And the leader happened to choose the idea that the rest of the group had chosen. And when we told them that with a bit of a sigh of relief, like, Okay, our job is a bit easier here. He paused and said, Oh, does this mean we're at risk of having some groupthink going on here? And we took an extra 10-15 minutes to really look at the idea is this really hitting the boxes, hitting the things that this design is intended to hit? At the end of it we decided, yes, let's go forward with this. But I always for a person in that position and that very high role within a very large company to hit pause and say, why are we doing this? Is this the right direction? Everybody's agreeing. That makes me nervous, was just a really powerful example because you can have consensus that's rooted in something that is unhealthy, which is, this is what I think my boss is going to like. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Yeah. 

Nate Roisen  

And if that's the direction that that a group starts to go then you're not getting that honest feedback, you're not getting that communication, that opportunity for listening that we talked about before. You're getting what somebody thinks somebody else might like. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. 

Nate Roisen  

And that is a that is a recipe for disaster. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Yeah, you're running into that yes-person type mentality. Whereas I think Stephanie mentioned before, making the meeting a safe place to express yourself and talk about what you truly believe. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, yeah, I love that story. And eight, I think that's such a great story. And then for that leader to be conscious enough to, to pause and really question it.

Matthew Gerstner  

That really does show a true sign of leadership too, to take that risk and say, Well, hold on a second. So that was a great example there. Nate, do you have any other examples between the two of you? Challenging consensus building scenarios? 

I mean, I think anytime

Nate Roisen  

I mean, I think anytime you have multiple stakeholder groups that need to share spaces, things always get challenging. You'll have different cultures, you'll have different histories of different backstories that you need to number one, understand so that you know what your client is bringing to the table. As well as number two, figure out how to kind of keep the boat straight, as all these other considerations are going by the wayside. Because really what we're what we're trying to do is develop a way of working in a space that's going to be 30, 40, 50, 100 years down the road. And there's a there's a lot of challenges when you're trying to meld two groups with personalities that really aren't something that you should be basing 100 year decision on. It should really be the lens of what's the best direction for this particular client several decades from now. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. 

Nate Roisen  

As opposed to, in a, in a short, shorter timeframe of of specific politics of the day. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Yeah., 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Nate, I really empathize with that. Your idea there that it's challenging to build consensus with different stakeholder groups. And that can be really challenging with stakeholder groups within a given organization. But sometimes we have stakeholder groups that aren't part of that organization and they might be a community group or or a patient group that we're really trying to fold into the, their thoughts and opinions into the design process. And yet, they might really be expanding how we think about this project. And so it takes more time to build consensus across those different constituent groups. 

Nate Roisen  

Well, I think to that point, there's also a point in time, that that kind of feedback from an outside group is able to be relevant to the design process that we have going. So is it a matter of showing up when the drawings are 70% done and saying, What do you think? That's probably not the right way to approach it? Is it knowing that upfront, we understand the project well enough, we understand our client well enough to be able to say, we should talk to the community group, we should talk to the patient group, they might be able to bring something to the project that actually helps out the whole, but we need to ask them when we can actually fold their comments into the project and not have everything go tilt. That, to me is the is the big thing is understanding when somebody's feedback is relevant, and then asking them when it's relevant, because they can tell when you're asking to check a box. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right, right. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah.

Matthew Gerstner  

I can see how that's important, too because when you're talking to a client, right, you're getting a very specific point of view. You're getting it from what they do, what they need to do. But if you're bringing in the community, or you're bringing in patients, in those groups, they're viewing it from a completely opposite side of the line, right? 

Nate Roisen  

And I have my own biases on that, because I sit on my community group. And so I have architects coming and talking to my group. And so I see how they can approach things. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Yeah. 

Nate Roisen  

You know, there's a point where the community groups are usually volunteers, they're usually giving their time that could be spent on something else and if you're coming in and saying, what tone of red do you like? Or something that's just, you know, minor, minor detail and not really listening to their concerns, it's not something that will win you any, any favors or any goodwill from those groups, when they are asking for things that might be outside of the scope of the project. And you have to be able to manage that for your client as well. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's really, really true. And I remind our teams and our clients all the time, be careful that when you're asking for someone's opinion that you actually, you're really asking for it and you have the capacity to fold it in. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Yeah, that's fantastic. So what do you see is unique in the way that BWBR manages the process to bring clients to a satisfying consensus for everybody. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

I think we've set it already here, establishing a really strong vision upfront is so critical and really a critical aspect of our projects. I think we listen really, really well. And we listen with empathy. And we listen to all the voices in the room. I think we challenge our clients to think outside of the box, but also to, to think about the project in new and different ways. And then I think Nate mentioned it, options. We bring options and discuss those options early and often. 

Nate Roisen  

That's all really true. And I would add, we bring an enthusiasm to the project. We always have to put ourselves in our clients shoes that these are people with 40 hour plus week jobs. That the process of designing a building is completely extracurricular. And if we don't bring some kind of energy, some kind of intrigue, some kind of enthusiasm to them, they're gonna just kind of clam up and hide and not and not not care enough to to make their opinions heard. 

Matthew Gerstner  

Right. 

Nate Roisen  

And so one of the things that we try to do is set the groundwork with our client. Setup even gets to the icebreaker questions, right? Are you thinking about the icebreaker questions as something that might be an opportunity for us to, when you're when you're meeting with a group for the first time might be an opportunity to get to know them a little bit, understand their perspective a little bit. It comes down to the graphics that we use, and are we really setting things up thoughtfully? Are we thinking about, are we thinking are we challenging ourselves internally to come up with with different ways of looking at things, all of that, I think, lends itself to establishing that relationship with the client where you can really hear what they're having to say and, and they feel like they're in a position to be able to say it.

Stephanie McDaniel  

I love it. And it's not that hard for us to bring that enthusiasm because we have the best jobs in the world. This is a so much fun. And it's an honor and a privilege to get to work with our clients to help, really help them bring better environments for their clients. Transforming lives through exceptional environments. What could be better than that? 

Matthew Gerstner  

Absolutely, absolutely. So we've covered a lot of ground today, and I can't thank you both enough for being here, taking time out of your schedules to actually meet for our first in person podcast recording. Thank you so much. Thank you, Stephanie. Thank you, Nate. Great to have you both here. 

Stephanie McDaniel  

Thanks, Matt. 

Nate Roisen  

Thanks, Matt. 

Matthew Gerstner  

And thank you so much to our listeners for tuning in. We'll catch you on the other side. 

Matthew Gerstner  

This has been cited designed from BWBR brought to you without any paid advertisements or commercials. If you found value in what you've heard today. Give us a like, leave us a comment, or better yet, share us with your network. You can also reach out to us if you'd like to share an idea for a show or start a discussion. Email us at sideofdesign@bwbr.com