Junie

Author Chelene Knight joins the podcast to discuss her debut novel Junie. The book is set in Hogan's Alley, the once thriving Black and immigrant community located in Vancouver's East End. Junie is a creative, observant child who moves to the alley with her mother Maddie who is an aspiring jazz singer and alcoholic.  Chelene discusses Black Joy, Black stereotypes and how the quiet, introspective Junie is a stereotype busting character. Junie is part of the Red Fern Book Review's latest book subscription box with Book Warehouse.

Books and resources discussed:

Junie by Chelene Knight
Braided Skin by Chelene Knight
Dear Current Occupant by Chelene Knight
Hogan's Alley, Vancouver Historical Society

For more information on Chelene Knight:
Website: https://cheleneknight.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nourishing.word/

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Transcript

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I think we all have a side of ourselves that remains dormant. So there's something in us that we never really tap into, or we never really ask questions of. And so Junie sexuality is just that. And again, taking a very light hand to kind of coat her with this idea and this identity and this this way of thinking and wondering and leaning into herself, you know, with so much curiosity. Hello, welcome back to the Red Fern book review. I am your host, Amy Mair. And today I'm joined by Chelene Knight, who's an author, literary agent and founder of a literary Writing Studio. And we're here to talk about her debut novel called June. And it's an historical novel set in a part of Vancouver that people might not know that much about. And it's called Hogan's Alley, and it was once a thriving black and immigrant community. Also, Junie by Chelene Knight is part of my current book box with book warehouse, which I'm really excited about, and it's out around the holiday time, so I think it would be great for people looking for a holiday gift or just for yourself. Also, just a little bit more about Shailene. She's written a couple of other books, she's written a book called braided skin. And it's about poetry and also about being multiracial. And she also has a memoir that she's written called Dear current occupant, which looks about her childhood where she moved around a lot. And she won the 2018 Vancouver Book Award for that book. And on top of that, she does a lot of other things in the creative and writing and publishing spaces. And I'm going to ask her about that, too. She has her own literary studio called breathing space creative. And she also works as a literary agents with the transatlantic agency. So with that, hello, Shailene. And thank you so much for joining today. I Amy, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you today. I'm really excited to talk with you about this book. And the first thing I just wanted to talk about is Hogan's Alley itself. I didn't know about it, and I read how I don't think you knew about it right away. And you You came to learn about it. And it really shaped a character that you had in your head, you figured out where you might drop this character into. So just wondering, can you tell people about Hogan's Alley and why this is a place you wanted to set a novel? Hmm, thank you for that. Yeah, I think it's it's interesting, you know, when I think about this neighborhood, Hogan Sally and how, how I came to learn about it, but also, how sad it is that so many of us, you know, just kind of moved through time being completely unaware of this beautiful, thriving area that existed. So this was a small area in Strathcona, Vancouver. It was like this T shaped alley, but it was so much bigger than that. There was you know, a lot of these different black businesses. There was the city's only black church. It was, you know, this beautiful neighborhood that really focused on this notion of community. And what happened was in the late 60s, early 70s, when the construction of the Georgia viaduct began, it was put directly through this neighborhood, essentially displacing an entire community of people. So when I learned of this, this neighborhood, I wanted to do research and dig around and I just became fascinated with this place that I lived so close to, but never knew existed. And is there anything left from the neighborhood? Like can you see anything? Or is it just completely raised? I would say it's completely gone, you know, but there are a lot of organizations now doing the work to try to resurrect some of this, you know, and have these different landmarks kind of pay respect to this neighborhood that was there, but I always tell people, you know, if you walk through this neighborhood But there's always going to be an energy, or there's going to be something that remains, you know, when we think about the trees, the things that have been there for hundreds of years that aren't going anywhere, I say pay attention to those things. And then when we talk about my my book, I'll talk about why I decided to fictionalize the places and the buildings in the book to kind of bring back that that idea of reimagining something that was that was lost. So why don't you tell people give people a little Coles notes, what is this book about? Yeah, the hardest question ever. I always say your pet, but I love it. I love it. It's essentially, you know, a book about love. And I think that is the best way to describe it. We've got this super introverted character, Junie, who moves through the world in a different way. And essentially, she is trying to figure out what love is. And so through that, we see her relationship with her mother, we see her relationship with this neighborhood that 30 years into the future is going to be demolished and erase. And she doesn't know this, but she can sense it. So the book actually focuses on Junie and her mother's relationship. And through that, we get to see and predict what's going to happen 30 years in the future. So that's kind of how I try to explain it to people, just because this is not one of those books that will be high action, and you're on the edge of your seat or something like that. It's more of you're immersed in this world with these characters, and you get to know them. So it's almost like a conversation, or a painting, maybe coming to life. And so you said that you looked at because there are a few well known businesses or, you know, maybe jazz clubs or restaurants. And you decided not to have the places you talked about the literal places. And why is that? Yeah, that was a really tough decision. And I sat with that for a long time. And, you know, part of it was logistics, and just not, you know, deciding to set my book in the heyday of Hogan's Alley sold this, you know, 10 year period where I thought this is exactly when this place was thriving. And I wanted to highlight that. And so many of the places that I felt were foundational, and you know, the places that folks would recognize like Vyas chicken and steaks, which I think opened 1948, don't quote me on that. But it definitely happened like 10 years after my book was set. So I thought about things like that. But it really came down to wanting to place a highlighter place this lands right in front of the people living there, I really wanted to highlight the voices and the living and the everydayness of that community. And so I felt that if I were to pull in these real life, places, that it might detract or distract the reader from that living, because I think, when we research and we dig around, we can of course, find all this information about this neighborhood if we're really looking for it. But what's missing is the voice of the people. And that's really what I wanted to bring back through this book. And you talk about, there was an intentional shape to the novel. I mean, of course, you could say that about any novel, but you really, almost cram. And I mean that in a good way. But you're talking you have a lot of things you're you're covering in this book. So you know, from you talk about Black joy, Mother Daughter relationships, stereotypes, sexual identity, all kinds of stuff. So can you talk a little bit about what were was your goal, your goal is about to talk about love, but you really wanted to incorporate a lot of topics? This is a really great question, because this is something that, again, I had to really slow down and think about, you know, what is going to be or what would I? What would I expect to be happening in you know, the early 1930s in Vancouver, Canada. With these, for the most part, black female characters, what would life be like for them? And again, this is something that I knew I would have to talk about race, I knew I would have to talk about gender and a certain, you know, barriers that these particular women would be bumping up against, but I wanted to do so with an extremely light hand, right? Again, this idea of highlighting this everyday living and these different relationships was so important to me that I wanted to make sure that even though we know these women are going to be bumping into these really difficult thing so that we aren't going to see them trapped inside of that negative cycle and that we're going to see, you know, to be able to zoom the lens in on a moment and say, Hey, this moment is actually really beautiful. Why don't we use that as the narrative for the book? Why don't we start to highlight these small micro moments of joy, in hopes that when they are stitched together, we can see a bigger and brighter future for these women. So it was really intricate to construct it in that way. But again, this doesn't mean that we're going to ignore those those big themes, it just means we're going to shift the camera's lens when we need to. And that shifting became very intentional as I was writing. So can you explain what black toy means? And what does it mean to you? Hmm, another beautiful question that I find it really difficult. You know, in fact, I recently after I finished writing Juni, I started to write a nonfiction book on black self love, and joy, you know, through my own experiences, but also, you know, trying to call in as many other black community leaders as I could to try to showcase that there is no one linear experience when it comes to what Black joy is. So I think it's such a beautiful question, because it calls us all to the table to share what our idea of joy is. And so for me, Joy is slowing down, like just feeling compelled to sit inside of a moment. And I think that's so beautiful. Because today, we are all rushing, we're all tired. We're all running and skipping past things. So slowing down and appreciating a moment for me is joy. And also being able to extract again, a micro moment of something wonderful. And saying, Hey, I'm allowed to focus on this, it doesn't mean that because it is connected to something difficult, and hard to swallow, that that joy is then erased. So I think it really comes down to personal experience and the kinds of things we want to start to highlight in books too. So the book, I mean, Junie experiences a lot of difficulties in her life. And one of her egg difficulties is her mother. And so I find it really interesting because on the face of it, it's really cool to talk to you about this because it is a book that's an this is intentional, it is a positive book, but it could have easily not been a positive book, because there's a lot of difficulties that this character is facing. But the mother daughter relationship, talk a bit about that. Yeah, I would love to, there's actually two really important mother daughter relationships. In the book, we have my main character Junie, who's who starts out, the book starts out when she's 13 years old. And we follow her for nine years, as she comes into, you know, womanhood, and her and she has this relationship with her mother, who has these lost dreams of being a celebrity and being this amazing jazz singer. But because of her alcohol addiction, she kind of takes this downward spiral. So throughout the book, we see Maddie Junior's mother, we see her take this spiral, and at times really hard to witness. But because we have Junie, this unique character, and we might talk about how I decided to shape her and build her as a character, but we see her right alongside her mother. And what's interesting here is that because Maddie is so abrasive and difficult to live with, and hard to talk to, and hard to get to know Junie actually thrives because of this. And this is where it's it's, it's that unique personality that Junie holds, comes into play because she uses her her introversion she uses her need for solitude and self reflection, to really figure out who she wants to be. And at some point in the book, God realizes, hey, I'm not responsible for my mother's you know, happenings I am responsible for myself. And so what's interesting is Judy has the ability to pull herself forward and into happiness and into this beautiful place of self because of her mother. So instead of being angry with her and saying, you know, why can't this woman step up and do what she needs to do? She realizes that she can untether herself from this, this woman. She's not responsible for her, but she can love her from a distance she can love her from across the street. And so that idea of love comes back into play because now we've got a new shape for Love a new color for love. And that's what God is trying so hard to figure out throughout the book. So it's it's a complex relationship in that, you know, many people likely wouldn't see it that way that love can, you know, blossom in those, those tough times. But that's what Junie is able to find out when you figure out. And she is able to do that, would you say cuz she's quite young to be able to do that is that through the other kind of healthier adult figures in her life, or just just she just had that within herself? Would you say, I would say that the other characters in the book help with that. But it's such a micro lending of a hand. And that was really important to me, that Judy have agency, and that she come into these things on her own. But one thing we have to remember is that when you are in this role of being the daughter, but you are also the mother because you have to essentially, you know, worry about this, this adult figure and take care of her, this adult feeling starts to embed itself in the body, that energy is there. And so, you know, when we think about what childhood it is, and how we move through it, God doesn't have these typical childhood happenings. She is born into the world as an adult. And so you know, one thing that I had a conversation with my editor about early on, and she would say things like, Oh, this is a little, a little adult for God, you know, she's thinking, and he's really adult ways. And you know, I have to think about that as as a writer and say, Well, this is my intention, because we need to show people that you need holds things in a very different way because of what she you know, was born into. And that's a very different weight to carry, you know, as a 13 year old. So you begin to have these very different outlooks, and you begin to have very different goals. And you begin to see the world differently. So we have Junius, introversion, but we also have, you know, her upbringing. And these two things together kind of create this really unique perspective that I truly wanted to highlight on the page. And you call her a stereotype busting protagonist. So and and I think that is, in part because she is quiet. And when you think of kind of the hero, heroes aren't always quiet, they're often breaking down the door or making a fuss or whatever. So can you explain what you mean? Why is she stereotype busting? Yeah, that's definitely part of it, you know, her kind of playing this, this non traditional main character hero role, but also because you know, the ways in which we write black women on the page. And sometimes this is just, you know, maybe not intentional. But we read these characters who, you know, find their happiness completely tethered to other people, or we find these characters who aren't standing up for themselves and trying to find his way into joy, where we have these, these these tropes, where, you know, the black female character is loud and sassy, and sarcastic and larger than life. But what if, you know, in when I'm reading books, I don't see myself in these books, right. So it's this idea of creating a personality, or even a way of seeing life through a very, very different lens. So that was something that was, you know, important to me, and to have a character who is able to see where they are, and create their own ladder, to climb out of a particular, you know, happening, I thought that would be really important as well, you know, and not have to tether that or tie that to someone else. So we have, you know, these other characters in the book, who do help her to see things but they are not responsible for her making the decisions that she makes throughout the book. And so you are a quieter person or an introspective person. And it sounds like you identify with some of the things that Junie feels, how would you relate your own background? Or just to Junie? Can you What do you see yourself in her? And if so, how? And I think, you know, the one thing that I've really learned about fiction is that these characters, they spend a lot of time with us, and we spend a lot of time with them, like Jr has been in my head for my whole life. And so I feel like she is an extension of me, especially when we think about personality. 100% But you know, and that's where the similarities kind of, and, and I wanted to take that personality trait and build a story around it. So what's great about fiction is that I have the ability to build a world. And I can build these storylines and expand these characters in such a way where I can take this idea of a core or this heartwood. As Betsy Orlan calls it where we have this seed of an idea, which you know, then blossoms into something we kind of don't have control over. I think when we're writing fiction, we have an idea of what we want something to do. But once we put these characters in a room together, they kind of do what they want to do. And I think that's what's really fun about fiction. And I had so much fun with that aspect of it. Were you said the character came first? When did you start thinking about her? And how did she first appear? Like, did she appear? Like you're kind of walking or dreaming? Or were you writing about her in a different way? Or what? Where did she come from? What a great question, Amy. Thank you for that. I, you know, it's interesting, because I know that she was always there, and she would come out in poetry sometimes. But she would also come out. When I think I would fall into the negative side of being an introvert, you know, the side where it kind of stops you from saying what you need to say, and my character Junie would be like, Hey, hello, don't do that, like you need to do this. So she was almost like a guide, you know, and I would just be like, Why am I was thinking about this, this this person. But I realized it was a character that I needed to get out. But I really didn't have a place to get her out to. And so when I learned about Hogan, Sally, that's when I thought, well, what if I dropped her off there, what would happen? Because they did try to drop her in other places. And it just never worked out. And it never worked out until I got the idea for this book. And one of the things she's also grappling with her sexuality. And it's interesting how you approach this, because, first of all, she's in a time and space. And just probably people haven't talked to her. She probably doesn't even understand. She she's attracted to her, her best friend. And but also, you have said that, that her sexuality is a metaphor. What can you elaborate on that? Definitely, I think we all have a side of ourselves that remains dormant. So there's something in us that we never really tap into, or we never really ask questions of. And so Junius sexuality is just that. And again, taking a very light hand to kind of coat her with this idea. And this identity, and this, this way of thinking and wondering and leaning into herself, you know, it was so much curiosity. But it was important for me to be in conversation constantly, you know, with community about these kinds of things. And I just recently did a talk for a UBC class. And it wasn't a creative writing class. It was like a geography type. Women's Studies class, and the conversation I had with those students was so beautiful. And everyone was talking about the way in which I created this character who was coming into her sexual identity, and the softness with which I've, I've done that and just kind of allowing her to figure it out. But one thing I always say is that we can't give our readers more than the character can give themselves, right. So Judy, is trying to figure this stuff out. But there is no neat and tidy ending, you know, that's right. God doesn't have that. So how can I give the readers that, but it was so interesting to explore that and to, you know, take this, this metaphor of, you know, what we are often missing or griefing within ourselves, and to be able to have a place to kind of excavate that a little bit. Okay, well, let's, let's do a reading. I want to hear I think people want to hear a little bit of your voice. Definitely. That sounds great. I'm going to read from page 61 in the book. So this is one of the vignettes. So the shape of the book is that we have the main narrative. And then we jump into these first person present tense vignettes. And that really allows for the reader to see how an introverted human being like Junee will navigate situations and come into curiosity and explore things. So this is one of those first person vignettes. Okay. And she's thinking about her mother, at this point and how she's coming to know who she is. Mama storytelling takes hold after she's had a few fingers of gin. Now I know the signs, mom's eyes lower her lips crease, then, the stories rush tales of her looking down on those who don't live like she lives who don't spend all their dollars buying the best fruit spread Kids tend to salmon and lard for skillet frying their chicken. Mama wants to have what others don't have just so she can say she hasn't. The world needs to pay attention to mama and give her all the money she deserves because she is a star after all. This is what she tells me and I don't know how to swallow her words down, they scrape the insides of my throat as they go. Mama turns her nose up at anyone who doesn't worship her or at least agree with her. She talks about the men who spoon themselves around her body most evenings when she steps off the stage. She tells me how their strong arms keep her warm at night. But when the golden halo of the morning tiptoes in through her curtains, she sends them running home. She tells me how she tosses their worn shoes at them in disgust. Everyone wants a piece of Mattie Lancaster. She says, the more the stories fly from Mama's mouth, the more I retreat into myself, just like the folded accordion skin held back by 1000 teeth like the eye hooks. At breakfast, I see two nickels on the table to erase the stories she can't remember telling. Wow. So you it's almost like she she has sadness. But she also you can you can tell how much she loves her mom and admires aspects of her mom, I find that interesting. Because isn't that it's like, it's it's complicated as it is with lots of mother daughter relationship, right? Definitely, yeah, it's interesting, too, because I think you know, at that age, we're always going to have some kind of a conflict with a parental figure, you know, there's always going to be that butting of heads. But that idea of finding that small, little micro spark of love. And this is often something we can't find until 20 years down the road, we look back, and we're like, wow, this person actually, you know, really did a lot. But we don't see that in the moment. But what's interesting is that God sees little pieces of it. And she holds on to those pieces. And she says these are important pieces. And I want to collect all of these pieces. And essentially, that's how she stitches together this idea of love, but you know, to be able to see those those moments I think is really cool through her eyes to be able to see that. You also tell everyone about your literary studio, creative breathing space. And just before I came on today, because I was doing some more research, I found out you had a podcast yourself. And, and I listened to part of a great episode on burnout, which I creative burnout. And that was really You talk a lot about. And I had an experience experiencing this in my own life that taking a break. And doing something that maybe years ago, or maybe even some people now might think is lazy, is actually not lazy. It's actually feeding your soul and your ability to actually do good work. Can you explain that? A little bit? Yeah, definitely. So through my my studio breathing space creative, we focus on that very thing. Helping writers create, you know, healthy writing practices and processes through this through this lens of self defined wellness and you know, kind of being proactive about burnout, because I think the way we move today is very reactive. When something happens, then we pay attention versus Well, why don't we go ahead and just go back to basics and do what we should be doing, which is creating a foundation in order to create in a healthy way. And that's going to look different for everybody. But for the most part, it's you know, the way I explained breathing space creative is, it is a container to hold everything that you know, you might learn when you go to get your MFA, and you're taking all of these craft courses, right how to write how to do this, how to sell your book, all of that. But what no one really gives you is the container to hold it all. So you know, you picture your arms full and open and wide and trying to carry all these different things. And what happens is over time, all of that hits the ground, right? Because you didn't have a way to carry all of it. So that's what I call breathing space creative is the container to hold all of those things. So that might mean you know, how do you say no to a writing project that is going to pay you if it's not a project that aligns with who you are and how you can best show up. So we break that down into all these different things, you know, like figuring out what gives you energy and what the tracks how does that contribute to your personality and you know, the roles that you might take up in publishing or in the writing realm. So we help you to figure all of these things out. so that you know, burnout is then something that is always, you know, there in the future, you can see it, it's there. But whether or not you reach it, you now have a lot more control over that versus trying to dig yourself out of this idea of burnout. And because it's it's something that I've experienced in my, you know, in my life as well, it's like this, this this burnout thing, you know, and the way we used to talk about it used to be almost bragging rights, where it's like, oh, yeah, I stayed up till 2am. And I did all these things. And I'm like, Why? Why is that the conversation? You know, and I was a part of that too. And I thought, well, we have to flip this narrative, we really have to start talking about other things. So that's kind of the the summary, I guess, of what we do at breathing space creative. And the podcast is a part of that. Well, I wanted to thank you so much for coming on today. And I just really enjoyed meeting you and I loved your take. I have to say, I thought this was more a book about history and race, but it is it I love that it really is. It's about love. So and I think that's quite universal. For everybody. Thank you. Thank you. I really enjoyed speaking with you too. Amy, thank you so much. Okay, thanks so much. Thanks so much, Shelley Knight for coming on the podcast. And the book is called June. And you can find out more about nibble Fox with G in its book warehouse.ca. Or you can go on my website at Red Fern book review.com. And be sure to tune in next month, I'm gonna have to back to back episodes about all the books that I read while I was away in Europe. And the first episode I'm going to be talking about Amsterdam in Holland and books that I read for set in that location. And then the next episode, I'm going to move over and talk about all books with a link to purchase. And of course, Jeff is also going to be a guest star. And we're going to be talking about travel, how to be in a long term marriage, how to build a museum together. So I will talk to you later