Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow and This Time Tomorrow

We review one of our favourite books of last year Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin as well as This Time Tomorrow by Emma Straub. Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow is the story of three friends Sadie, Sam and Marx and their foray into the video gaming industry. It is a campus novel as well as a look at video gaming as high art. This Time Tomorrow is a fun, nostalgic read with the main character, Alice, travelling back in time to the '90s. The book is a look at father/daughter relationships and a love letter to the '90s. It answers the question: Would you change the past if you could?

Books and Resources Discussed:

Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin
This Time Tomorrow by Emma Straub
The Midnight Library by Matt Haig
The Last of Us (Netflix)
Shrinking (Apple Plus)
Only Murders in the Buliding (Disney Plus)

Check out our episode on the Midnight Library here:
The Midnight Library, Klara and the Sun and Hamnet, Season 1, Episode 13

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Tomorrow and Tomorrow and tomorrow, creeps in this petty pace from day to day, to the last syllable of recorded time. And all our yesterday's have lighted fools the way to dusty death, out out brief candle. Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Hello, welcome back to the Red Fern book review. I'm your host, Amy Mair. And I am joined today by my co host, just mer. And this passage I just read is from Macbeth. And it is when Macbeth loses his wife, Lady Macbeth. And he's talking about the futility of life, but also happens to be the reason or the title of one of the biggest books of 2022, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin, and we're going to talk about that book today. And it has a personal connection to both Jeff and myself, because there's a lot of gaming that goes on in our house. And later in the episode, we're going to talk about another book, this time tomorrow by Emma Straub. And both these books, I chose them both because they both are works of literary popular fiction. And they both deal with the topic of time, and they are both big hits in 2022. So hello, Jeff, welcome back.

Geoff Mair: 1:51

Hi, Amy, how's it going?

Unknown: 1:53

It's good. Let's get right to the books.

Geoff Mair: 1:57

Awesome. I'm really excited to discuss this book, because I love the topic of kind of video video games as art. It's kind of fascinating to me.

Unknown: 2:05

Yeah, you know, so the reason why I selected this book, is because video gaming is a big deal in our house. And actually, I would say, for a non gamer, I'm not against it. As long as there's balance, I'm okay with it. I don't totally understand it. And so this is the story of three friends who are obsessed with video games. And I wanted to learn more. And but But what does gaming mean to you, Jeff? Like, what would you say, before we get into this book,

Geoff Mair: 2:40

I like video gaming, you know, as an entertainment form as an entertainment alternative, because because the viewer is involved, because I'm actually involved in the game rather than, you know, being a passive consumer of media, you know, the players actually playing. And, you know, to me, that makes it super impactful. And so when I think about video games, I think think about them as an alternative to other forms of entertainment. And I kind of differ from a lot of, you know, the view of it on a lot of people my age, because a lot of people think of it, oh, it's a waste of time, it's gaming. But it's no more of a waste of time than any other media forum that you consume. And I think it's actually better because you're involved in it. And I think it's just super fun. So that's maybe the main reason to play.

Unknown: 3:30

Okay, so you that is what the three main characters in this book also think. And the three main characters there, Sadie, Sam and marks. So two of the characters meet as children, Sadie and Sam, and they've been friends for a really long time. And then they go off to university. And they meet up with this character of Marx. And what I think makes this book very special. And then Sadie, the female, mainly she starts the gaming company tomorrow games, and with these, with these two. So what it has kind of a dual track this book, the one track is all about the video gaming world and what it means and how you build games. And then the second track is kind of a friendship book that takes place over time. And so that second track is what I think draws a lot of keeps a lot of readers interested in kind of what appeals to me because there's also that kind of campus novel, I love anything set up at a university. And so I think it's kind of brings in people that might not be interested in gaming.

Geoff Mair: 4:39

Well, I think that's right. I think it's very much about you know, it's about video games, but it's also just a really, really well told, you know, yeah, just a really well told story about friendship and love and relationships that happen in the real world. And so I think that, you know, that's where the real value in the book comes from for most readers.

Unknown: 5:00

So, the the author herself Gabrielle Zevon clearly has a lot of respect for video games. And one reviewer called the characters in this book literary gamers, and I think you're a literary gamer. And can you explain how you interpret that term and how you think it applies to the characters in this book?

Geoff Mair: 5:23

You know, I think that's a really interesting question. I'm literary, and I'm a gamer, but I'm not sure I'm a literary gamer, certainly not to the level that the characters in this book are, you know, these people have devoted their entire lives to the art form of games. And, you know, they're creating, not just consuming, but to me, a literary gamer is somebody who appreciates the, the form the art form of gaming, and likes games that aren't just like, cool and fun to play, but they really take advantage of the medium, you know, that really immerse the player in, in sort of, like, challenging moral dilemmas and things like that, that you can't really do in other other mediums. So these characters, they're, they're very much of that ilk, of that of that type.

Unknown: 6:13

One example of kind of the literary gaming thing, Sadie when she's in university creates her first game, and it's called Emily blaster. And that's where you take. She's taken the poems of Emily Dickinson. And then she deconstructs the words, and they kind of flash on the screen, and you have to shoot them down kind of like Centipede. But I don't know if you saw this when you were researching it. And this is quite brilliant. Ken off, I think is the publisher of this book. They actually recreated the game. Oh, I did do that. Did you see that?

Geoff Mair: 6:47

It was pretty cool.

Unknown: 6:48

So you can actually play her game yourself. And I actually played it because I wanted to check it out. And I liked it because it reminds me of the very primitive games that we played in the 80s. Like centipede and Frogger. And it wasn't complicated.

Geoff Mair: 7:04

And you need to know Emily Dickinson to do well at it. Yes.

Unknown: 7:07

And I can't say I really do. But so. So I thought that was kind of one of the more clever literary promotions I've seen. Yeah, pretty smart. But that's an example of, like, a clear example of how she's sort of taking literature and, and

Geoff Mair: 7:27

gaming and combining them into one sort of form. Yeah.

Unknown: 7:32

Okay, so that kind of dovetails into an another question, where is video gaming art. And before I asked you that I wanted to bring in our son, Ethan, so I actually Ethan's a really big gamer. So I texted him. And he sent me this long thing back. And he said the same thing you did, which was that he feels that gameplay is so special, because you're actually fully immersed in the space, like, kind of like installation, art, installation art, but you also determine the outcome. But one thing he said that I thought was kind of interesting. It kind of reminded me of the Marvel movies, he said that in terms of an art form, video games are not always developers don't take the artistic risks they used to because it's such a valuable form. And they're a little bit concerned about doing that.

Geoff Mair: 8:28

Yeah, really, the only the only companies that are doing sort of very out there artistic gaming these days are the very, very small, independent publishers, it's kind of like, you know, the characters in the beginning of this book, when they're two or three people staying up late at night creating, you know, very artistic games. That's the that's, you know, that's in reality, what's going on in the industry. Now, the only people creating those types of games are the really, really small creators.

Unknown: 9:00

So how would you how do you think of video game as the video game design as art?

Geoff Mair: 9:08

Well, to me, it's like, it's not even a question of Is it art or not art? It's really funny. Obviously, I was reading a bit about this question, you know, for this topic. And one of the things I read is that Roger Ebert spent, like the last 10 years of his life, arguing that video games are art. And to me that makes the argument that they are art, like, as soon as anyone's debating whether something is art, or not art, it's typically art, like, oh, that's becoming art. And so to me, it's kind of like, who's making the argument that it's not art. You know, and to me also the, I'd say, artistic video games fall into two camps. There's the kind that are really just really beautiful and immersive and they create this amazing world and they're just visually stunning things like Red Dead two and Sea of Thieves, but the ones that literary gamers, and what I would call her the really sort of super artistic games are the ones that take advantage of the medium. And so in the book, there's an example of this, they created this game called solution. And it's, it's a Tetris like game where you're building parts, but you don't know what you're building. And at the end of it, it turns out, you're building weapons for the Nazis. And so that's the,

Unknown: 10:27

but it would make people very upset. Well, exactly trek,

Geoff Mair: 10:29

but it's art. But that's art, art is meant to elicit a strong reaction, you know, in the viewer or player. And in playing something like solution, you know, you're you're sort of posed with these moral dilemmas. And you find out in the end, regardless of the decisions you make, that you're actually a really bad person, which is like, That, to me is like art or art. And there are examples of, you know, bigger games that have done that successfully, like Metal Gear Solid, you know, and Hotline Miami, those are games where it's not so much about the visuals, it's artistic, because of the gameplay, and how you have to make these sort of moral dilemma decisions.

Unknown: 11:16

So overall, what did you think of the book,

Geoff Mair: 11:19

I totally loved it. I mean, I really liked the whole gaming world, I like, you know, the entrepreneurial tech world. And those things are both, you know, very core to the book. But mostly, I just thought it was a really amazingly well told story, it could have been about anything, and it still would have been, you know, a great book. But I love kind of the core tensions of the book, there's like this constant tension throughout it between, you know, art and commerce and which has more value and which is more important. You know, that sort of debate happens throughout the book. And then there's also, you know, this tension that I think is really fascinating to watch, which is the tension between the utopia world that the game creators are trying to create, they create this place called maple town that's supposed to be this friendly, nice place. But there's this tension between that and, and the real world. And, you know, the actual sort of problems around race discrimination and gender discrimination. It just brings in so many different things that are going on in our society today and pulls them together in one epically told story.

Unknown: 12:33

I liked it probably mostly for the the friendship trio. I because I thought that was, I enjoyed the gaming part, but I really liked I love kind of a friendship over time. And how very common is that when they met? Like, someone always had a crush on someone else that it was unrequited, and they were best friends, and someone else was pushed out and kind of how cruel and how much we need each other when we're young like that. And I just thought it was very, I thought was pretty realistic that way. And I also really liked understanding Sadie, which I really feel was the author coming through because I don't women are very underrepresented in the video game world. Yeah. And so it just was kind of interesting to hear from her point of view, and how much she liked it and why. Yeah, totally.

Geoff Mair: 13:34

She she's a long term gamer. She's, she's not just, you know, writing it for the book. She actually games in her real life all the time. So I thought that came through in the book. And I think your point around the characters and friendships is really like, like, I found the video game art question really fascinating. But the thing that kept drawing me back into the book was these friendships and the characters and kind of how that evolved over time and sort of real life things that they had to deal with throughout the book.

Unknown: 14:03

I would say this is a five star read, it was one of my top five as last year. And I think everyone should pick it up and see if it's right for them. Because it is a good read. And it also stretches you at the same time and you're learning something so

Geoff Mair: 14:19

super hard, though. It's like complicated book.

Unknown: 14:23

complicated, but it's stretching me and I mean, if you said do you want to read a book on video gaming? I'd say no,

Geoff Mair: 14:30

no. Oh, for sure. It's stretching people outside of the bounds of their normal reading stuff. For sure. Yeah. But when you read it, it reads just as a very fun story. You can just enjoy it as your friend read or you can get really fully immersed in everything that's going on in it too.

Unknown: 14:44

Um, a little bit about Gabrielle she was born in New York City to Jewish American. She has a Jewish American father and a Korean mother. And she attended Harvard herself. And she's not very old. I would say she looks About 40 around there. This is her 10th novel. And she writes a lot of things she's written for adults, young adults and screenplays. So I think we're going to keep hearing from her. Another note, two of the I think two of the characters are half Korean. And she explores a topic of kind of belonging and otherness, and defining who you are culturally, that I think is also kind of cool. So, anything else you want to talk about with that book?

Geoff Mair: 15:33

No, I agree. Top Top Five book for me, for sure. Ambassador, I loved it. I think it's just super fun. Fun read.

Unknown: 15:40

Okay. So the next book, Jeff did not read. But I did and I wanted to recommend it. And it's a little bit of an easier read than this last book, but similar in a way, and it's called this time tomorrow by Emma Straub. And Emma Straub also wrote The Vacationers which was a big novel that you might have read. But the storyline here is, Alice is the main character, and she's turning 40. And she goes out with her best friend to celebrate. And this is a best friend She's had forever since childhood. And she's newly single. But in general, her life is kind of the same. So she's, she's works in admissions at the private school that she attended in New York City. So she's kind of doing, you know, been the same place for a long time. And what is different is the father that she adores, is in his 70s, and he's very unwell, and she's going to visit him, I think she visits him about every day. And it's really hard to see kind of the passage of time. And it gets her thinking a bit about the past. And her father is famous for writing a book about time travel. And he's also famous for creating a TV show, based on the same book. So what happens is, she goes out with her friend and goes to a bar that they used to go to his children, or sorry, high schoolers that they kind of snuck into. And all of a sudden, she wakes up in the morning after her birthday. And she just kind of, you know, stretches her arms and looks around, and she's 16 again. So it's kind of a freaky Friday scenario. She's in her childhood bed. Her dad is down the hall brushing his teeth, and he's patting through the hallway. And so she's back in the 90s. And that's, that's the story. So does that sound like something that would be of interest to you?

Geoff Mair: 17:43

I think the 90 is part sounds like something that would be of interest to me. And I kind of liked the idea. Well, does she get to change her past? Or is it just like, she's going back there? And she's coming back? Yeah. Does she get to change her past? Like, does she get to remake decisions?

Unknown: 18:01

Well, what I will say is she keeps shuttling back and forth. And and the, the premise of the book is, would you change anything, if you could? So I think that's an interesting premise. That's the premise. And, you know, it is not exactly like the mid like night library, because the midnight library by Matt Hague was more fantastical, there was a little bit more fantasy. But it is definitely a bit in that vein. And the book itself actually references back to the future, and Peggy Sue Got Married. So I think this book is a love letter to the 90s. And to a simpler time, I was also a little bit surprised. I you and I are 10 years older than the author and also the character in this book. But the 90s wasn't that different from the 80s in many ways, and the main thing that I kept coming back to like, it was fun, they talk about you know, references we know like frisbees and lip smackers, and just video games and things that we did. But the main thing, the main thing I think she wanted to talk about this is as one of the first scenes she's kind of looking for her iPhone, she can't find it. There's no phone, and our world is our phone. And what happens when you don't have your iPhone? Like you make a plan on a Friday night. At six o'clock. That's what you're doing. You've made the plan on Tuesday, good old 90s. And so like that some kind of weird because we knew each other in the 90s. But it it that's we met but I wanted to just do a little reading because I thought this is quite sweet. And what she's really talking about is it this in a way nothing major happens in this book. It's just kind of simple, but one thing that I thought was quite impactful when she she talks about seeing her dad for the first time like as, again as a 16 year old And he must be probably 40 something. So her dad is Leonard. Okay, so, Leonard Stern was sitting in a spot at the kitchen table, there was a cup of coffee next to him and an open can of Coca Cola. Next to his drinks. Leonard had a plate with some toast and a few hard boiled eggs. Alice thought she could see an Oreo to the clock on the wall behind the table said it was seven in the morning. Lynard looked good. He looked healthy, healthier, actually, than Alice could ever remember him looking. He kind of looked like he could run around the block if he wanted to just for fun, like the kind of dad who could play catch, and teaches kids how to ice skate, even though he absolutely wasn't. Leonard looked like a movie star like a movie star version of himself, handsome, young and quick. Even his hair looked bouncy. It's waves full and deep. The rich brown they'd been in her childhood. When had his hair started to gray. Alice didn't know Lynard looked up and make eye contact with her. He looked down at the clock, looked back to Alice and shook his head. You're up early, though, a new leaf. I like it. What was happening? So yeah, she's just kind of talking about a simple time and I liked it. Like I would not say I'd give this book four stars like I I don't think it's it just depends like I thought it was really sweet. And

Geoff Mair: 21:26

did she make the the sort of like time travel stuff? Today it blend well into the book, or was it kind of like, you know what I mean? Like, it

Unknown: 21:37

wasn't super exciting. It didn't wasn't super sci fi. I won't get too into how she comes back and forth. But it's not it. She just kind of keeps appearing. Like she's not you don't get her. You're not stuck in portals. And like, if you're into sci fi, it's not really that I think it's

Geoff Mair: 21:54

to spend some like a little bit you spend some of your like thinking about that to enjoy the book. I listen,

Unknown: 21:59

I think so. And and I think you do. And I think the main thing is just a simple of vehicle to get her back into the 90s. And, and a little bit about the author. So I mentioned she's written a bunch of other books. The Vacationers is one that a lot of people will know. But she is she's around 40, early 40s. And her and her husband also own a bookstore, and Brooklyn called books are magic, and I follow them on Instagram. And that looks pretty cool. But the reason why she wrote this book, she's very close with her father, who's actually is an author. And his name is Peter Straub. And he writes horror books, and he's pretty well known. And they're really close. And he became sick at the beginning of the pandemic. He's okay now. But so this is really about him. And she says, This is the most autobiographical of any of the books that she's written. So, yeah. Okay, so let's move over and talk about some stuff we're watching. So for those who don't know, Jeff, he's had a couple of major operations in the last couple of months,

Geoff Mair: 23:12

the replacements to be more specific, is that

Unknown: 23:15

a double double knee replacement surgery, each knee has been replaced a month, two months apart, so one in December one just recently, so we're doing a lot of hanging around watching television we

Geoff Mair: 23:29

are I'm immersed. I've watched Netflix, all of it.

Unknown: 23:33

So we've got a lot to say. So you have one that kind of ties into the first book. Want to tell everyone about that one?

Geoff Mair: 23:40

Yeah, there is a new HBO show called The Last of Us. And the reason it ties into the topic of discussion today is it is based on a video game, a very successful video game called The Last of Us. Yeah, and what I love about this show, is that it really does an amazing job of capturing the aesthetic and world that is created in the game. It's kind of the best tied in, you know, game to miniseries movie, whatever, that I've seen done yet. And so I think it's really, really quite awesome. So the story is like, it's a post apocalyptic kind of zombie ish. Show, like, like The Walking Dead, sort of, I don't really usually like zombie zombie shows. This one's really good. It's great. It has a great story. It's just really well told that the two main characters, Joel and Ellie are really well played by Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsay. They really make the show. And so I'm just super drawn into it. I love it. Really good. The Last of Us watch it.

Unknown: 24:53

It looks like I've just passed by. I haven't watched it but it does look a little like they're walking dead ish. It's very even the lead character. It's very

Geoff Mair: 25:02

Walking Dead ish, I'd say where it's kind of more issues driven or a little bit more. Yeah, posing ethical or moral dilemma questions than, than the Walking Dead, which is, like largely a zombie show, in my opinion.

Unknown: 25:21

So I want to recommend shrinking on apple plus, have you sat down to watch that yet? Oh, yeah. We watch we watch to be watched. Yeah. So it's by the creators of Ted lasso. I don't it's no Ted law, so I can make it that. But it's it is very good. And it's with Jason Segel. And Harrison Ford, and Jason Segel plays a psychologists with a lot of personal problems. It's very funny. And so he kind of in the very first episode goes rogue and start doing stuff, I would say against it against the law and not really sure.

Geoff Mair: 26:00

No, it would be against the board of ethics of therapists, or whatever. That's

Unknown: 26:04

what I mean, yeah, board against the board of ethics. And he is in an office with two other therapists who are very funny, including one of them is Harrison Ford, and who knew he was funny. But he plays the same kind of guy who always plays like a grumpy old man. But he he's, he's funny. And it's really, really good.

Geoff Mair: 26:27

It's fun. I think. The characters fun, it's very kind of like, sweet and touching. I would call it and, ya know, it's a nice, it's a nice show. I like it.

Unknown: 26:37

I don't like how it drops every week. I like it when shows drop all at once. Because we're so used to being able to binge and it bugs me. But um, and then the other thing I'm watching which I don't think you've gotten to yet, I'm watching season two. Is it Season Two of only murders in the building? That is that's out now, right? Yeah, season two. Yeah. Season two. And for those of you who haven't seen it, I It's my favorite show. It's on Disney plus. And it's about amateur sleuth, Selena Gomez. Martin Short and Steve Martin. And they have a pod True Crime podcast. Yes. There you go. Which I love that. Yeah. And you see that a lot. I've been seeing that in books I've been reading and other thing you see the podcaster as a character, and they live in a building on the Upper West Side of New York. And it's just I think it's just it's really just a vehicle for Martin Short and Steve Martin of physical comedy.

Geoff Mair: 27:38

Yeah. And it's a fun sort of murder, murder, mystery, cozy, cozy poverty, with great characters and played by, you know, great comedians.

Unknown: 27:48

And then, you know, they're constantly on the elevator and the elevator elevator door will open and there's another like, famous actor, comedian, like, Amy Schumer was on this one, Tina Fey, Shirley MacLaine, it's fun. And they're, they're filming the third one now. It'll be out this summer and Meryl Streep is going to be in it. Oh, there you go. And Paul Rudd, who's in everything. Paul Rudd. He's everywhere. And everyone loves him. Um, so and then I wanted to Is there anything else you want to talk about? About that, Brian? And the other thing I wanted to say last thing I want to say is I have a voicemail. And I've mentioned this before, but please send me a voicemail. We'd love to hear from you. Jeff and I could answer you can ask either must have a question.

Geoff Mair: 28:37

Yeah. Call in send this voicemail. How did they do that? Me.

Unknown: 28:40

Um, so you just go on my website. And you can just fill out your name. And then you just press record. And there'll be like a little black icon and you click it. And then it sends me an email.

Geoff Mair: 28:52

And it's the website www dot Redfern book review.com

Unknown: 28:56

It is and then and then you might appear on the podcast. And I even have a little icon like a little a little sound of a voicemail like a voicemail beep So it sounds all official official. So anyway, you've lost all it was called anyway. Thanks so much for listening. And, and the books again are tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. And this time tomorrow.

Geoff Mair: 29:24

So thanks for joining us. Awesome. That was fun. Okay,

Unknown: 29:27

all right. Bye.