Asking for a Friend and Holiday Gift Giving Recommendations.

Book Blogger and author Kerry Clare joins the podcast to discuss her new book Asking for a Friend. It is a novel about intense female friendship and how key relationships created in our youth endure or break apart. We also chat about her blog Pickle Me This and her role as editor of the book recommendation site 49th Shelf. We wrap up with five hot books perfect for all the people on your holiday gift giving list.

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Blog: Pickle Me This
Book Recommendation Site: 49th Shelf

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Transcript

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We know how to navigate whatever happens in romantic relationships because it's so scripted in our culture, but I think friendship isn't. And there's a point where it just goes to the bookstore and there's there's really, she can she can find all kinds of books about divorce, but nothing about losing your best friend. Hello, welcome back to the Red Fern book review. I'm your host, Amy Mair. And today I am joined by Canadian author Kerry Clare, and she's here to talk about her new novel called Asking For a Friend. And it's about intense female friendship. But in addition to that, I'm very excited because I've been stalking her for a while, she has a great book blog called Pickle Me This. And she also happens to be the editor for 49th Shelf, which is a Canadian book review website that I really like. And I rely on both of those or check out both of those when I am kind of trying to figure out what I'm going to talk about and read for the podcast. And while I have Carrie here, I have asked her to pick out five books that she thinks would be great for holiday giving, just in time for the holidays. So with that, let's move over and talk with Carrie. Hi, Carrie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. As I mentioned to you earlier, I've been following you for a while. You're a great book, blogger, and you're an editor of a great site called 49 shelf, and I've been wanting to meet us. So here we go. I'm excited. Thank you. So what we're gonna do first we're gonna start, you've written a book, which we're going to talk about. And then we're gonna talk a little about a bit about what you do. And then I want to conclude which is going to be fun with some holiday gift giving ideas and you've got some quite creative choices. So But listen, let's just dive into it. The first thing I wanted to ask you, your book asking for a friend is about intense female friendship. And I just wanted to ask, I'm sure you must have drawn or not drawn upon your own experience. And I just want to know, what is your own experience with female friendship? And how does that compare to the friendship that we see with the main characters Clara and Jess, I have been really fortunate to have lots of wonderful friends throughout my life, female friends, mostly, I have a few male friends, but it's always been been women that I've been able to have these intense connections with. And I've been fascinated by the way that the women who've known me, for decades, we've been able to build a history together and that our relationships are some of the most complicated and rich of my life. I think my marriage i It's pretty straightforward. And, you know, I it's more stable than that goodness, than than the friendships that I've had, which have really weathered ups and downs. But partly that's because we've grown up together and become together, you know, started off being one kind of person and have grown and changed so much. I don't just have one best friend, I have many very good friends. I think the book is dedicated there six friends that the book is dedicated to who are friends who've been close to me since high school, and then the other group, the other three since university, and so they've seen me at my most ridiculous, and I know things about them that I would never tell. And those friendships are so special to me, they have made me who I am. And I'm just so interested in them and in the complicated dynamics of a friend. Because when I look at my female friends it's almost like looking at a mirror in a way I'm not looking at me, but the ways in which they're like me is like a mirror and then the ways in which they're not makes me think about myself too. And and that's just really complicated and sometimes hard. And so I wanted to explore that in in my book, but I Also, yeah, I also wanted to really explore the how astonished I am by having had people who've known me since I was 13. And who still know me now and possibly know me better than anyone. I remember when I was pregnant with my second child, I called a friend before I told my husband. But I've never said that before. But I said, don't tell. But I just thought that she might be even more excited. I mean, I don't know why I did that. But well, that's I mean, that's a major point in the book, right? The first line of the book is that every time Jess was pregnant, Clara was the first to know. Yeah, and so I am sure you, you can relate to that. Yeah, it seems a little bit unfair to these poor fathers who get left out of the mix. But there's, there's something also really complicated and sometimes fraught, but wonderful about about going through pregnancies together too. And, and so I wanted to explore that as well. And the way that ternal experiences really can connect women and also drive them apart. So can you give everyone a brief summary of the book? Yeah, it starts in the fall of 1998. At a university residence in Toronto, it's identifiable, though not call that exactly. And Jess, is a first year student, she's a little bit out of her depth, she hasn't found her people, she's lost. And she's also in trouble. And the person who's there for her is a classmate, someone who lives on her floor, she's a little bit older, a little bit aloof, and that is Clara. And when Jess is desperate, because she's found out that she is pregnant. Clara is the person who sort of finds her, and they come together. And they're both a little bit lost in this place. And they sort of come to mean home for each other. And they live together for the next couple of years. And their lives are very embedded. And then life happens, and they come apart. And I guess the question of the book is, is can these intense connections so based in a time and place be sustained? Does it even make sense to insist on being connected to these people who knew you when you're with someone who you're not anymore? Can friendships grow and change? Because not all of them? Can you don't? You asked about my own friendships, I've talked about the ones that have grown and sustained through the years, but there are others that haven't, and it breaks my heart a bit. And so the book hinges on the question of what lasts and what survives, and it takes them to the next 20 years of their very divergent lives. As they grow together and come apart, and back and forth along that trajectory. This was something I was grappling with as I was reading the book, and you kind of touched on it, but is their friendship healthy. I mean, you know, it's interesting, because if there's a friendship of any depth at all, you're gonna have problems. But there's points in this book where I'm like, I don't know about this friendship. And then there's times where it so I just want to know what you think of their friendship. Well, other people have responded to the book that way, like one star on Goodreads, this friendship is toxic. And I was so surprised by that reaction. I've every This is my third novel. And I've been surprised by the really vehement dislike that people have toward what I've written, not that it exists, but just I always like to like worrying in advance about all the reasons people don't like it, and then it ends up being ways that I hadn't supposed and so and I know that people you know, talking about the friendship is unhealthy or toxic. That doesn't mean they don't like the book, but I just I never thought about it. Oh, you didn't think of it like that. And maybe that's a real a real friendships. That response has made me think, oh, my gosh, what kind of a person am I like, just to think that, but you know, this is just what happens. It's normal. I've really always struggled in my connections with other women with, you know, with judgment and not letting other people's choices be a statement upon my own if they're different. And so I really wanted to grapple with that tension in the book, because it's something that's so interesting to me, it's uncomfortable and terrible. To feel that way to look at a friend who's making a choice and not be sure how I feel about it. And is it because it's a bad choice? So why why do my friends choices make me uncomfort Trouble. Now that I'm 44, it comes up less. But like in my 20s when I wasn't sure of myself, and our lives were changing all the time, just it was a lot of tumultuous SNESs. And so I wanted to write about that. So yeah, maybe it's a little heavy on the tension. And then there needs to be, you know, in the background of the book, I'm sure there are there are easy going times happening between Clara and Jess. We do see them when things are most fraught and tense. Because I guess that's really what interested me. Sometimes I think their friendship isn't healthy. Sometimes it's based in in real neediness and where they're unable to look beyond their own situations to know how to be a better friend at that moment in time. So I don't know for me, it seems like it's, like a fairly normal relationship. But But yeah, maybe I've upped the tension a lot. But you got to sustain a book, right? Like if yes, it can't be they can't get along. The whole time. It's impossible. Yeah. But But yeah, I do for me like, and maybe maybe I've also just made my characters really introspective. And asking questions. And how they treat each other. I don't think is so terrible. In the end, I think it's a pretty healthy friendship, they make each other they build each other into the people that they are. And I think that's kind of awesome. It's interesting, because I'm 10 years older than you. And I don't think it's hard again, no, it gets easier. That's what I'm hoping. Oh, like, I it's just interesting that you're saying that because I think about all the people that surround me now. And I mean, I'm not saying there's never a problem. But there's really no problems in your 50s in a you just don't get caught up in the little details anymore. And you don't you don't hang out with people that don't make you feel awesome. I don't know. That's what I think. That's what I've been feeling too, for sure. It just gets better and better that way. But that's my, my experience. No, I think you're right. And I think there's something specific about going through friendships in your 20s and 30s. As relationship choices happen, and people make, you know, people like they start out Clara and just living in the same university residence, and then they end up living in really different socio economic classes. And that can make things complicated. And like, what if, what if partners don't like each other? What if your friend has children that are really obnoxious, like all of these things that that can make those very, ever changing year so bumpy? And then yeah, I feel like Jessie and Clara are going to have the book ends on a note where I feel like maybe there'll be a little bit of peace for a while, and they can float blissfully for a time. So as I'm reading this book, I can't help but start thinking about the book, My Brilliant Friend, and of course, halfway through, you reference it. So you are obviously in some way thinking about it. I also have to admit, I'm going to admit here on the podcast, I haven't read that book. But I've been wanting to and I know it's really important to a lot of people. And so what what's your opinion on that book? And how did that influence this book? I've been waiting to get in trouble about this. I think it's the most controversial point in my book. I did not like Elena Ferrante these series. I was very hyped. I read them all. But I wasn't swept away like I was just why does this book has to be so long? And why are there three more of them? And I don't know why. I wasn't I was not captivated. They were so dense and, and everything that happens to the characters was so terrible. And I just wasn't, it didn't do it for me. And I read like I'm a book reviewer, but I also ardently believe that it all comes down to taste. I don't think it's a bad book. It just I didn't like it. And yes, you're right. It's so important to people. And so I'm not saying the book isn't good, but it I wanted a book about friendship, and My Brilliant Friend just wasn't it for me. And I wanted a different kind of ending. I think I referenced that in my novel. So yes, in my book, that book comes up. It is something that brings these two characters together again, but it's not my favorite book. Okay, good to know. Um, I wanted to ask you about the role that fairy tales play in the book and I love fairy tales as a kid, I was kind of obsessed with them. So I like that kind of through line in the book and what's what's going on there. You know, I wasn't so obsessed with fairy tales as a kid. But I became obsessed with them when I had children, and just started seeing how weird they were and how dark and, and fascinating, so I got really into them and into, like reading a bit of scholarship about them. And the way that they're just this backdrop to, like Western culture that that people don't really question. And if you start to question it, and if you start to read some of the darker, more original versions, not the ones that have been watered down for children, it explains a lot about who we are. Because yeah, they're they're dark and twisted and violent. But also, there aren't a lot of women in them, and the women who are in them, I mean, I guess, you know, the whole point of them. And it's archetypes rather than the deep, fully rendered literary creatures, but I was also really interested in so the ways that that fairy tales have sort of informed us and our culture without us even thinking about it, because it's there. And we never, we never ask questions. I was also really interested in the way that the same images and motifs turn up in cultures all over the world and you know, stories of like foundlings, and, and they turn up everywhere, and I think they maybe tell us something about about human preoccupations and neuroses. Also thinking about motherhood and fairy tales, and all the evil stepmothers and fairy tales that actually weren't stepmothers in the original forms, but whoever, you know, sanitize them, for us found it unpalatable to think that mothers could have such nasty thoughts about their children that like in Hansel and Gretel, you would take them out into the woods and leave them there. But then when I had a child and was, you know, really overwhelmed, I was like, that actually makes a great deal of sense. I could, I could think about the impulse to do that. I think yeah, it tells us something about about the darkest parts of ourselves, but also fairy tales, but also about the you know, the things that are unquestioned. When you think deeply about fairy tales, there's just there's, there's so much there. That's interesting, like in the story of Rapunzel, which I talk about in the book. It's, it's not quite what what you think it is. And so I guess I had Jess be studying fairy tales in school, in the beginning, and then I started had to think of a job for her. And she ended up working in a library that is based on a real library here in Toronto. It's called the Osborne collection for early children's books. And it's has first editions and incredible children's books, including folktales in fairy tales. And so she becomes a librarian at this library. And so it becomes sort of her life. And so it's a backdrop of the book and it also just gives my character something to do. Okay, so Okay, another question I have is, we've sort of touched on this a little bit. But why do you think when platonic female friendships fall apart or go through troubles? It can sometimes cut even deeper than a love relationship? And I was just curious what your thoughts are just I have my own opinions on that. But I want to know what you thought. I think there are such scripts for romantic relationships for how they proceed, how they break up, there's a whole rituals in our society about it. Once I bought a tiny tub of ice cream at the store, and my children saw it, and they said, That's emotional support ice cream, because they've seen the heartbroken women on television, eating hog indoors. So we know how to navigate whatever happens in romantic relationships, because it's so scripted in our culture, but I think friendship isn't. And there's a point where it just goes to the bookstore and there's there's really, she can she can find all kinds of books about divorce, but nothing about losing your best friend. I think there are a few books out there now. But you know, there's not a whole section in the bookstore, certainly. And that's something that happens to almost everybody. So yeah, how do you navigate that terrain? I think a person is very alone when they're doing it. There aren't a lot of you know, best friends. cup support groups. And also it's just it's so personal when the person who I have speaking from experience the friendships that have ended for me with people who I feel like knew me so well, it's devastating that then that person is like, Well, no, this isn't working for me. And that that relationship ends, it's it's such a thorough rejection. And, yeah, I've been, you know, I have relationships that it's been 20 years, and I still think about it all the time. And also, when people are really embedded in your most formative experiences, I would have a longing for those people still, to be with me, so I can remember with them and to make those experiences, I don't know, to bring them to life a little bit. And, and so when, when the people who are part of those experiences are lost, you know, it really underlines how far away the past is. What are your thoughts on it? My thoughts are really the same. And that I think, just, you know, kind of back to that comment about ask time from a friend that I was pregnant before my husband, I just found in my marriage, he didn't get as excited about the little baby details that maybe a friend would, he would be excited about, you know, significant life moments, but I might tell a 10 minute story about something I did that day. He doesn't want to hear that. But maybe a friend does so in ways. I think that's interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way that you say it's sort of a full kind of a rejection of your full self when you maybe when you have a friendship breakup. And that might be true, because you you share so much, and then it doesn't work out. Maybe you worry it's about you. I'm not really sure. But I just think you can get quite close to Yeah, and you know, I think about I never think about my partner as a reflection of myself. I mean, maybe like, but but my friends are, and vice versa. So yeah, it gets very complicated. Do you have a reading that you can do, I was wondering if you have anything you could could share with everybody to give a little flavor of the book. I would love to. This is so so 1998 on a university campus was very much the place where I was, and a lot of the early parts of the story. The people are not from my life, but the places and the things that happened are the book is a little bit like a museum of the things that I want to kind of crystallize and keep with me. And so this was based on a real experience from someone who is not close to me anymore. And it's funny because I know she's read my books. So sometimes I feel like I'm just sending her secret messages. So this is this is Clara and gests. They've become quite good friends. They've been friends through it's almost it became friends in December and now it's spring and you know, in university time passes. It's sort of like a lifetime and yeah, two semesters and so they've been through a lot together. Let's sleep outside tonight, Clara suggested the following week, they could bring their mattress out to the balcony we'll be able to see a stars she said it was the kind of March that could go either way with crocus shoots and a chill in the breeze that they smelled like spring like mud and grass and a hint of garbage with the melted snow. Just said walk back to the dorm and short sleeves the sun on our arms for the first time in months passing the frat boys up and down St George Street who drag their crappy couches onto the lawns. Sounds good. She said to Claire. By now Jess had learned not to question Claire's impulses to just follow along and reap the rewards. And that night snuggling the mattress under piles of blankets just asked her Have you done something like this before? They were lying even closer than usual to stay warm the evening chillier since sundown, which made it more important to follow through with the plan font as Clara was it been congruently if the night had been mild, or she might have lost interest and headed inside, Claire said, I mean, I've been camping. But not like this said chess. Not beneath the lights of the city surrounded by it sounds traffic and sirens just thought about how from Clara she'd learned how you could build your own little world. You could bring home a trunk from the sidewalk or move your bed out onto the stars Claire agreed Nope. Not like this. They lay in silence for a while and then Claire said You know, every time I've been close to anyone friends, boys boyfriend's may have been so much older. And I don't even know why. Maybe because my sisters were teenagers when I came along. So I've been the one running behind trying to catch up trying to be faster too. Be more with you. It feels like the first time ever, that you don't have to do that. She added. I've never had a best friend before. Honestly, I thought I wasn't the type, which was ridiculous, clever summers could draw other people with the force of a magnet when she turned her attention on them. The guy who fixed the Reverend on their floor had sent her flowers. Claire could be friends with anyone if she just bothered to give them a chance, but she almost never did. So how exactly had it transpired that Jess, of all people would finally end up here at the center of the world with Clara beside her the entire night sky above them. What did Claire see in jest that made her so different from everyone else that Claire and never had any time for? But she couldn't ask a question like that. Especially not declara, whose self assurance Jess had been trying to mirror all along. She just was scared that if she spoke at all spell would be broken. Because even though the usual inclination between girls she knew was always to relate to say, Oh, me too same same, just had had strings of best friends for as long as she could remember, often changing with the seasons. But her connection with Clara went deeper than any of those it was true. She said, in all honesty, I don't know if I've ever had a real one in my life. You know, what, as they were reading that what it made me think about was when they were probably lying there, how everything's so alive for them. And and as you get into life, that doesn't happen as often anymore. Like, especially like your stage or my stage has to be something really significant, like a move or a, you know, a trip or, but at that time in your life, when you're in university. Everything's kind of like, vibrant, which has kind of made me and you feel like you're at the center of things. And I think that's what they gave each other that they both sort of been on the sidelines, and then they met and you know, where they were was where everything was at. Yeah. Okay, so let's move over and talk about some other stuff. So tell everybody a bit about what you do. So you have a book blog. And then you're also editor of 49th shelf. So tell everybody about both those things. So I've had a blog for 23 years why? It wasn't a blog, my first my first blog, I didn't know that word, it was my online diary. And I was like, 20, and it was ridiculous. And, but I really loved the idea of having a platform where I could share my many, many emotions at the time. And luckily, it was all anonymous. So that's the greatest thing about both my era. But just having a place online to put my thoughts and feelings is like a reflex for me now, because it's been more than half my life. In 2005, I went to grad school and studied creative writing in English at University of Toronto, and that's where my blog became a book blog. And it's been so ever since then, though, its preoccupations are always changing. And I just still love this place to live online. And, and, you know, my home base online, and the great thing about blogs is they are a little bit obscure, like I can, I can write about complicated feelings. And I know that it's not going to blow up in my face, the way it might on social media, where everyone's watching and responding and, and there's buttons about what different responses can be. Blogs are still a place for nuance, I think and where you can sort of whisper things and get some feedback, but not too much. So that place has been really important to me. And it's been huge in developing as a writer, learning to show up every day and write small pieces of a thing is what taught me to write books. And so it was through my blog and some other writing, I was doing that I became connected with fortnight shelf, which I've been working for since 2011. And it's the best job in the world. It's a Canadian books website. It's run by heritage, Canada and the Association of Canadian publishers. And my job is to just be enthusiastic about Canadian books. And if you've read Canadian books, you know that that is no tall order. It's simply the best job in the world. I love it. I get to work with book publishers across Canada. Indie presses, but also large presses as well. And what it has taught me about Canadian books is that there is no such thing as a kind of even like the idea of CanLit CanLit is everything. It's fun commercial fiction. It's beautiful, you know, small press post Three books. It's literature from all across the country that is serious, funny suspense, I love that you can read across genres in Canadian literature and never run out of, of interesting stuff. I like to think of the books we feature on Fortinet shelf as being CanLit cliche defying. There are all kinds of but let's stop there because well, first of all, for United's para this year, that site refers to 49th parallel, which is where Canada is, this is for international. Yes, listeners, but also can let doesn't always have the greatest reputation. And that's it, she does it. So can you explain a little bit about what what maybe the stereotype of camlet is versus what you're describing here? Which is a broader scope? Well, hashtag can lit. Yeah. So you know, there's, there's like a small group of people, we'll just say, Margaret Atwood, and Alice Monroe, whose books like I really love, by the way, but um, you know, the depressing books. It's about like someone who lives in a cabin in a really remote place, and, and they're really sad, and it's some point a baby will die. And, you know, a baby will die. Absolutely. It's, it's, yes, it's, and you know, when I was becoming a novelist, I thought, Okay, this is what I have to work toward. And all the books I wrote before I wrote, My books that got published were books where I was trying to write in that like, serious literary CanLit voice. I was trying to be something else. And it was really liberating for me as a writer, when I was like, Oh, I can write in my own voice. And I found out what that voice is. And you know that that is Canadian books, too. Okay, so now this is this is the fun part where I asked Carrie, because it's holiday time to come up with some recommendations for holiday books. And so she came back not only did she come back with five books, but they have funny little kind of categories. So could you get into that and tell people what you're recommending for? Yeah. So these are all Canadian books. And you'll see that yeah, takes all sorts. So my first one is for the historical fiction fan. And this is a book called Gin, Turpentine, Pennyroyal, Rue by Christine Higdon, it's not the easiest title to remember. But oh my gosh, the book is good. It's a book that has everything. There's really rich, wonderful prose. There's family drama, there's smugglers, speakeasies, and the literary dog, one of them is pregnant, another one has an illegal abortion and gets very, very injured, almost dies. The third has fallen in love with a woman and the fourth is struggling with infertility. And the whole point of the book, apart from all the action and adventure and smuggling is that these experiences are not divergent at all. They are so connected to issues of female autonomy and choice. And it's a very contemporary book, really, in terms of the issues that considers but it's just also a fantastic read. Okay, that sounds really interesting. So set you said set in 1920s. Vancouver. That's right. So it has sort of a Jazz Age, vibe and flapper dresses, and it's it's I read it when I was camping, two days in the woods, and it was just the perfect companion. And then what about the next one? So I also love detective fiction. And this book is not brand new. It came out earlier this year. It's called Blackwater Falls by Ausma Zehanat Khan. But the second book in the series is called Blood betrayal. And it just came out at the end of November. So police procedurals, post 2020 and Black Lives Matter are a kind of fraud. What does it mean to be reading detective fiction now? Khan has a PhD in international human rights law. And she has clearly been thinking about this her fictional detective who's a Muslim woman in Colorado, she understands that police forces sometimes often are failing to serve or protect racialized communities. This is a book about white supremacy, police brutality, border policy, refugee struggles, even inhumane working conditions in meatpacking plants, which has been such a problem since COVID-19. It's led to so many deaths. It sounds like this is a book just based on issues and headlines, but it is not because the story shows that These are all issues that are interconnected. And they impact communities and people so much. The stakes in the novel in reality are huge. So this Muslim detective is new in town and she has to grapple with the deaths of Muslim girls in the community and she finds in her own police force. She doesn't get the care and concern that she knows the issue deserves she's also dealing with PS PTSD herself. It's a great detective novel, but it also just is taking on the issues of our time, and I really enjoyed it. Okay, the next one has is fun. What what category is this? This is for my friend who always has the best manicures. I never get my nails done. But I still loved Sunshine Nails by Mai Ngyuen. It's a story that's inspired by her own parents story as Vietnamese immigrants who run a nail salon in Halifax. Although the book is set in Toronto, it has you've got male fives. What's going to happen when the humble family nail salon gets a new neighbor. It's a corporate mega salon down the road. The Tran family has to fight to save their family business, but the shenanigans and escapades involved in that threatened to tear their family apart. It's a theory funny book about a Vietnamese Canadian family, which is a perspective that I don't think I'd read before. It's also heartwarming, it's a great family story. It's a little bit silly, but also really rich and yeah, a lot of fun. It has the most gorgeous sparkly yellow cover too, as you would expect from a book about Dales. So an intelligent, fluffy book, it sounds like Absolutely. Oh, that's the best. That's the sweet spot that's kind of hard to find. But about the next one. So the next one is sort of set in a similar universe to my book. It's called The Damages by Genevieve Scott. It takes on the toxicity of 1990s culture. It's set in a fictionalized version of Queen's University shirring or the actual devastating ice storm that happened in 1998. That took down power for weeks. It devastated a lot of eastern North America. So the narrator is raus she's trying to fit in during her first year at university and she really wants to distance herself from her extremely uncool roommate, but then the roommate goes missing during the storm. In the chaos and upheaval everyone around her declares Roz responsible for what happened to the roommate and she ends up dropping out of school. The novel has a second storyline takes place in 2020 as Ross Ross begins to reckon with her culpability in what happened years before and the possibility that she was a victim to as with the best books that are inspired by me to this book is not you know, firmly coming down on one side or another. It doesn't come to deep conclusions. It engages with the mess of it all and it teases out all these threads, it asks questions instead of giving us answers. It also though just really much was a book of my time. And I recognized that time and it was wonderful to read it again. So this would be the book that I would give my best friend from 1998. And what's the final book? So this book, my dad's getting it, so I hope he doesn't listen to this. It's a history buff. This is nonfiction. It's called Clara at the door with a revolver by Carolyn Whitzman. It was a finalist for the Toronto Book Awards. It's the story of a black woman who dressed in men's clothing in 1890s. Toronto, wow managed she managed to get a jury which was an all white jury, male, obviously, to acquit her of the murder of a young man who was shot dead in the darkness of night. Like what are the odds of that happening? It reads like the most terrific suspense novel. I've read it right after I got a COVID booster and I just was lazy and spent the whole day in bed, unable to put it down. It's also really rich with historical detail about what life was like for black communities in 1890s, Toronto. I bought the city's newspaper scene number seven daily newspapers in Toronto in the 1890s. I also learned that both houses were just Toria scenes of carnal activity. It's full of like really fascinating, who knew right boathouses. It was really fresh, engaging and vivid. it but also really relevant for, you know, it tells us a lot about where we are now when and how much hasn't changed. So it was like the very best suspense novel, but you're reading about about history and it was terrific. Now do we have to read the book to find out? Did she do it or not? Or do we have to do have to read the book to know? I think you need to read the book. Yeah, that's not the question on which it hinges really. But the author, I saw that I saw the author speak before I bought the book. And she was just such a fascinating presenter. I knew she'd be the best storyteller. And I was correct. Okay, so I wanted to end I was just thinking about because you're so experienced with book reviewing, do you have any pro tips like, what's like, a really important thing to know when you're reviewing a book, and then what's something that's a mistake that I should avoid? The mistake that I really had to get over earlier in my book career, and that was hard to do was thinking I had an obligation to review books that I wasn't that interested in or to, you know, really be generous toward them, because they had been given to me or sent to me. And I thought, well, you know, I, I owe something to the publisher or writer who sent me this. And, you know, I think giving the book a chance at all, and reading it and thinking about it is what I owe the writer. But, you know, taking the time to give my opinion is that it's unpaid work. So yeah, I judged books more generously than perhaps I should have back in the day, it took me a while to, to feel confident enough to have my own point of view and to know when a book wasn't for me. The other thing is, is to sort of pursue your own avenues. And this is not for professional book reviewers so much, it's, it's hard out there for professional book reviewers, the opportunities are, are really sparse. And so a lot of us are reviewing in our own spaces, and not being paid for it. And I think in order to make that work rewarding, and to make the spaces where we're writing more interesting, pursue your own curious avenues, read older books, read books that aren't what everyone's reading, I mean, maybe it's not going to bring you huge audiences, but you're contributing something meaningful. You are interested in the work you're doing and you know what the reward is the thinking and processing you're doing as you write these pieces. Don't be afraid to be original. I think it makes it's good for everybody when that works out. Well, that's fantastic. Okay, so thank you so much, Carrie. Now we're all set up. We we've, we've learned about your new book, so people can go check that out. And we know what to get for the holidays for maybe our best friend. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much to Carrie for coming on the podcast. And her book is called asking for a friend. And you can check out her blog at pickle me this.com. And if you want to check out the great Canadian book recommendation site that she edits, it's called 49th shelf.com. And with that, I think I'm going to put down my mic and go run out and get sunshine nails. Because that sounds like the perfect thing right now. Something a little bit light and frothy with a little bit of depth at the same time. That's kind of a hard thing to find. So that sounds good to me. And I hope you have some great recommendations for yourself and your family for the holiday season. So I will talk to you soon