63- Dr Sowmya Viswanathan- Incorporating Equality, Diversity and Inclusion principles in teams and research approaches

Dr. Sowmya Viswanathan is a Scientist at Schroeder Arthritis Institute and the Krembil Research Institute (University Health Network) and an Associate Professor at the Institute of Biomedical Engineering and at the Division of Hematology, Department of Medicine (University of Toronto).

She built her industry experience developing regenerative medicine products at Johnson and Johnson before returning to academia to run a Cell Therapy Program at University Health Network as Associate Director. Her expertise as a translational scientist shifted to cell therapy trials, cell manufacturing and regulatory affairs before becoming a research group leader in 2015.

Transcript

Sandrine: 0:00

All right. Let's get started. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, dear listeners, you're on the podcast, Research Lives and Cultures. I'm your host, Soub. And today I have got somebody who is coming all the way from Canada. I have with me Sao Mia Visvanathan, who is a scientist in the field of stem cell research. Welcome on the show.

Sowmya: 0:37

Thank you for having me.

Sandrine: 0:38

So at the moment you work at the University of Toronto, but you're also part of a number of research institutes can you tell us a little bit about your context before we, we try to delve into the history of how you got there?

Sowmya: 0:53

Sure. So my primary appointment is at the hospital. So it's called University Health Network. And these are the hospitals that are associated with the University of Toronto. So they're teaching hospitals. And this is where a lot of the research and centers of excellence are. And within these hospitals are different research institutes. I sit in one of these research institutes called the Kremble Research Institute, and my position there is as a scientist, and my lab and my students are all based at the hospital where the lab is physically located. But most of the faculty and scientists at these hospitals, because the hospital is associated with the university, are also appointed at the universities and hold faculty appointments. So I hold a faculty appointment in engineering. My background is actually in biomedical engineering. I also hold a faculty appointment at the associate professor level. at the department of medicine and within the division of hematology. So I sit both in medicine and engineering at the university. And then I am a scientist at the hospital where my lab is physically based.

Sandrine: 2:05

It's interesting because just from the location of these various appointments, bringing an interdisciplinary element through connecting with people who are in the clinic and in the hospital and also within the, university location

Sowmya: 2:21

yeah, I think this is definitely one of the things I most enjoy about what I do is that. Kind of the diversity and the bandwidth of all of the different people that I interact with. So being in the hospital is fantastic because a lot of my research is focused on osteoarthritis. And this hospital is one of the leading osteoarthritis research centers and, and, and clinical centers in the world and certainly within Canada. So we see a lot of patients and we work very closely with the orthopedic surgeons to really understand The problems that these clinicians and patients are facing, so it's very much informed by what's happening in daily clinical practice and what's the reality for the patients, especially the pain and morbidity that many of these patients face and how that affects their daily lives, and that really informs and is very integrated into the research. A lot of the research that I do is on human samples, so we have a very large biobank. Of all different kinds of, so not just blood, but, you know, the different tissues that you get from the biopsies from these patients the various fluids. So the synovial fluid, which is the fluid in the joints that we can get, and then we're able to use that to do all kinds of omic studies, all kinds of animal studies, all kinds of in vitro studies. So it's actually really very helpful to have clinical context for whatever we're doing and to be able to go. So very rapidly from what we're doing in the lab into clinical trials, which has really been an area that I've been interested in and I've done a number of Health Canada approved regulated cell and gene therapy trials. And so having that translational and clinical component is really important. And equally, I think, you know at the university and within other institutes, there's a lot of collaboration on the engineering side and on the manufacturing side. So for example, I have collaborations to develop organ on chip. So these are microfluidic devices that allow us to really create a joint on a chip. And, and to create basically another research tool to be able to look at the different therapies that we're developing. So that has a big engineering component to it. We're very interested in developing cell and gene therapies, and eventually these need to be scaled up. So we need to, you know, work with bioreactors and systems. So the manufacturing and engineering side and understanding a lot of the Dynamics there is also really important. So again, we have a lot of collaborators and my own lab specializes there. So you're right. It is very interdisciplinary, but I think that's the nature of research at least today and the nature of research in my lab. So I love the fact that I, I kind of sit at the heart of all of these different centers and Toronto has such a rich. Culture of biomedical medical and engineering research, and so many great scientists and professors that are working and so many excellent trainees that come through our institutes and, and are part, parts of our team. So I think it's, I'm very fortunate to, to really be sitting here at this core and to, to have all of these really great interactions with people that I work with.

Sandrine: 5:38

So how did it all start? I mean, one of the things that I was reading on your website bio was that you actually, worked in industry before coming into academia. So can you give us a, brief overview of how you got to be where you are now?

Sowmya: 5:55

Yeah, I took a very circular path not what a traditional academic does. So you're right when I finished my PhD, which was looking at embryonic stem cells and, and bioengineering here at the University of Toronto, and also at MIT. I actually moved on. I did a little bit of work at the stem cell network where I was helping kind of run their scientific programs for about a year before I left and moved to Boston. And so there I was working in, in big pharma. In developing regenerative medicine products um, still working a lot kind of on the stem cell research that I had trained on. And I really enjoyed that environment and being in industry. There was a lot of, uh, interactions with the FDA and also with the idea of how to move A research into a product, right and how to really meet patient needs and clinic clinical needs and to address the gap in the field. So I think I learned a lot there for family reasons. I needed to move back to Canada. And at least when I originally moved back, Toronto was still, you know, starting in terms of like. Spinoff companies and biotechs, but they weren't very large pharmas at that time. So I moved back into sort of academia industry, and I was running clinical trials because I'd had all of this experience with the FDA. So I was really working at the cell therapy program at UHN and leading multiple clinical trials, working at the GMP facility, running. And operating that GMP facility and doing a lot of both investigator initiated, but also industry sponsored clinical trials and learning a lot about cell and gene therapy and, and sort of getting an appetite for the work and the research before I decided to finally start my own lab, which was only in 2015, 2016 where I. Decided to focus on osteoarthritis use and develop cell and gene therapy. So I took a much longer route to get there. But I think the experience that I've had in industry has really helped me in terms of a collaborating with industry, but also collaborating with others and really trying to do clinical trials and do translational research. So the research that we do, of course, we're interested in fundamental questions, but we're also interested in. How we can translate this into patients and, and into products and that can actually really help them one day. So I think that's my background is, is very diverse. Definitely not a traditional academic background.

Sandrine: 8:24

What's fascinating about it is that in so many conversation that I have with early career researchers is, you know, a fear of going into industry or a reticence to go into industry. And in a way, often it's because if you're a postdoc, you may still really love doing research and there is a fear that if you go and work in industry, then that's it. You can't go back into academia From the story of your own career path is that actually, you know, the doors are never closed. It's a matter of decision. And what's really interesting in your example is that the transition happened because there was a personal things in your life that, you know, a change of location. And in a way it sort of prompted to, to rethink, okay, where do I walk? And Did you find it difficult, again, getting the first position in terms of working on these trials, or what was really important to be able to re enter, you know, academic work,

Sowmya: 9:20

yeah, I think when I came back to Canada, like the sort of the hybrid role I had was fairly easy to come back into. But I think getting your, getting my first academic appointment was harder for sure because you need a track record of grants and you need a track record of publications and, and, you know, senior author publications. So that is not as, as Not as smooth, but it's manageable, right? Obviously, I did it and it took me a little bit longer than I would, I think, a traditional person who does a PhD and then maybe one or even two postdocs and they stay in the same field and they're publishing, presumably in high impact journals and maybe writing grants or co applicants or collaborators on grants. So they have that track record, which helps them to get that first position. I didn't have that opportunity. So I had to create that opportunity for myself and then arrive at that first position. So I think that first appointment was, was challenging for, for those reasons. I know that academia and my institute and many others have become DORA signatories, right? So how they are evaluating academic, Contributions has evolved, but I think it's evolving, right? I think there's still room for it to change and to be able to recognize different contributions. For example, you know, the work that I was doing in terms of mounting clinical trials. These are very large. Multidisciplinary complex projects, which which take a lot of, you know, groundwork doing toxicology studies and, you know, many types of studies, which are not necessarily publishable or grant worthy, right? They're not discovery Hypothesis driven type of research. There are different types of research, but they are very important in advancing the field. So recognizing that contributions can be made in different ways. I think I think universities still have a ways to go to to finally come to that, but at least there is movement in that direction, which I think will help kind of people who are now considering that. For trainees I would encourage them that even if they are in industry positions to see, you know, how much they can publish and to to be part of that, even if they're not last authors on those publications to to be actively publishing. I think that definitely helps if they want to go back into academia. And the fact that people are sort of recognizing other types of contributions will also help.

Sandrine: 11:52

One of the things that I found that was really interested in the way that you were presenting your lab was that you had a declaration about EDI, Equality, Diversity and Inclusion and it's, it's rare that people kind of write that as the center, that they would put it at the very top of the page on their website. How do you feel now that you are running a research group, the EDI agenda is something that, you know, is, is really at the core of the way you want to be a research leader.

Sowmya: 12:22

Thank you for pointing that out. I mean you know, as a minority and as a woman, you know, it's been something that I'm very sensitive to and based on the experiences that I've had, you know, which, which have generally been overwhelmingly positive, but there's always some, you know, occasional negative experiences. It's sort of part of the part of that. So that sensitivity yeah. Plus, I think there's a lot of focus here in Canada, especially for public research to, to have researchers trained in EDI, right, and incorporate that into their research questions. And a lot of this is driven by the reconciliation efforts that are happening with Indigenous people. There's a lot more awareness of how to integrate that into your research, how to integrate gender and sex into your research. A lot of experiments, you know, even. I would say a few years back, we were doing with male mice, right? Like they are not representative. So working with female mice, making sure when we're working with human samples, for example, we have not just sex questions, but gender identity questions, right? That allow us to be able to stratify our data much more I think is really important driven, I think, partly by my own experiences, but also now with This huge education and awareness campaign that is taking place in Canada and and as a requirement for getting public funding, right? So these there are lots of workshops, there's seminars, there's papers written on it. So, you know, I tried to have, we've had speakers in the lab talk about EDI. To talk about bias and research and a lot of this is actually unconscious bias. We think we're very rational and fair, but there's so many biases and assumptions, which. We don't even know until we're challenged on it. So I think there's a big blind spot there. So I think talking about it and thinking about it helps. And it's certainly something that I'm trying to practice, not just in hiring and recruiting kind of trainees and staff, but also integrating it into our research questions that we're asking and, and how we can you know, incorporate that into our research questions and also when we translate that research eventually to the clinic, which is really one of my big passions and drivers, right? Are we doing this equitably? How are we translating our research properly? So many clinical trials that we do, for example, you know, when, when the trials are being done with women because we know so very little about kind of risks for women, especially when they're pregnant, et cetera, you know, that's often been an exclusion criteria. So how can we be more equitable and fair around that and incorporate them into the research while still safeguarding you know, their health and their safety? So these are the types of questions we think about also. And I think it's really important to weave that into research now because the end of the day, this is public money. A lot of what I I'm getting funding for his public money. And so it really needs to serve the public, which is diverse, right. And it's not specific sex or gender or, or, or race, right. So it needs to be very much diversified. And I think that's why the EDI principle is something that I've incorporated. It's there as a statement, we worked on it together as a lab, we brainstormed on the wording. And it's something that we, you know, go back annually and try to reflect on. As I said, I have speakers come to our lab meetings to try to talk about it. We'll do some journal clubs and look at some of the literature on EDI and biases and research and, you know, challenge my trainees to think about it and challenge myself to think about it. Right? So I think that's really the motivation for that.

Sandrine: 16:04

What I find fascinating in what you're describing is that you're incorporating the EDI principles in developing, in challenging your research itself. I think that people are still really at the stage of okay, how do I recruit, more diverse team members, but actually incorporated at the core of how do I do research? I'm sure it's still something that is very, very early stage in terms of the way people are prepared to challenge themselves.

Sowmya: 16:31

Yeah, I mean, you know, and we've made probably small steps, but, for example, including female mice, right? And and going through some of the challenges of that and and the heterogeneity that we get and incorporating that like I said, incorporating. Gender identity in our questionnaires that we get from patients and patient samples so that we can annotate that. I think those are, I think, some of the things that we're at least initially starting to think about. The other thing we, we do a lot of is you know, engage with patients and patient groups, right? To kind of hear and have their voices included and their challenges and what they're dealing with. They would like to see out of the research that we're doing and what's a priority for them. So I think incorporating some of those voices in our proposals and in our grants so that again, the research is also very patient focused and also driven by what their gaps and needs are, I think, is part of that you know, Toronto being a very diverse community. Population as well, like, we get a lot of samples from from different diversity groups, right? And so our biobanks are also quite diverse in terms of reflecting that and certainly they're not large enough now. But as we get larger, and as we kind of integrate more omics and AI, right? There's ability to to be able to personalize and customize. And see if there if there are differences and how those differences or are reflected in different types of heterogeneity in in our readouts. And if we can, you know, capture that and use that to really customize, for example, the cell or gene therapies that we're giving and in being able to stratify patient populations to identify the right. Target population that we want to give the right dose with the right types of cells. So I think those types of research will take longer. But there is this awareness and there is this ability now with larger. Big data to be able to do that stratification. So to have at the core of those types of big data, I think is really important. And to to be able to integrate that. So, for example, I'm. Sitting on a very large grant that we're looking at for mitochondrial research, right? And that's, I would say one of the key drivers of what we're looking to do because we know that metabolic health varies with diet and with, with sort of socioeconomic status. And so that's really a big part of the heterogeneity in our samples and, and being able to collect kind of A representative sample to to drive and inform our research questions is important. So I do see more and more of that, especially in the larger kind of collaborative team and research type grants. But individually, I think it has to start in everyone's lab and to have kind of that awareness and interest to pass it on to their trainees and until I actively incorporated into research, even even though it is harder.

Sandrine: 19:37

What do you think, holding the AI principle as a core thing, as part of, the ethos of your group and of your team. what have you found the hardest to shift in terms of practices? I was remembering, you know, some conversation I had in a workshop where I remember a PI saying, well, I only have, you know, men apply for my lab and, you know, I've, I've tried to change things and I still only have applicants who are men, and, and having a sense of. Change doesn't happen and I don't know how to go and shift the change. So in your case, what have you found? And whether it's about, you know, the team dynamic with people who are very, very different in your group or recruitment or the research, what do you think is the hardest to shift at the moment

Sowmya: 20:22

yeah, I think for me, maybe because I started later, right? Because I didn't come to research or start my academic career really that early. I think it was there from the very get go for me. So my team has been incredibly diverse. Not just coming from different parts of the world and speaking different first languages, but also, you know, I have engineers, I have pharmacology training, I have kind of, you know, basic science, I have medical. So there's a very diversity in terms of training. There's diversity in terms of age diversity, definitely in sex, but It's it's I so it's less of a shift. It's just been how I've started from the very beginning and maybe because of my own representation that has not been hard for me to attract. And so I feel like that's. Always been the mix and I think the group is incredibly diverse because of that. And so we do get lots of different opinions and different ways of looking at things. I have people that have an industrial engineering background. I have someone, you know, who's training for medicine. So there's. It really does change kind of your perspectives on things. And I think that's really important to be open to hearing those different perspectives. And, and, and again, this comes back to that bias and research, right? Like, there's, there's kind of you're like, only one way of doing it. No, there can be different ways of doing research and allowing those voices to be heard and to be to be integrated into research approaches. You know, and it comes with challenges, right? So scientific. Writing is very formal. And for many of my trainees and staff, like English is not their first language. So it does take more commitment from me to help them, for example, with their committee meetings and with being able to communicate their ideas, whether it's at conferences or abstracts, right? Like, to help them communicate scientific thinking formal scientific thinking. So I think there's more training involved there. But I, I take that as part of. Part of the part of the diversity and part of my commitment to to E. D. I.

Sandrine: 22:29

So I'd like to kind of take a step back and sort of pull you back to the time when you were applying to run your own lab. Something that I'm always really fascinating by is, the process to basically build your research niche. What you worked on during your PhD and then the experience that you had in industry, the trials you were involved back in Canada, how did things come together to make you decide actually, okay, that's the project I'm going to apply for. This is me. And I'm bringing all of these various elements into something that is congruent and is becoming my research niche.

Sowmya: 23:05

Yeah, I don't know that it was so much of a systematic process, but, you know, I was so I knew that I wanted to stay in stem cells. So I did embryonic stem cells during my P. H. D. When I was in industry again, it was regenerative medicine. There was some stem cells, but there was also a lot of other product focuses, so I did a lot of orthopedic musculoskeletal stuff in industry. And then the clinical trials, we, I did all kinds of cells you know, we did T cells, we did a lot of mesenchymal stromal cells. So, ultimately, I sort of stitched the three together. So stem cells, Mesenchymal stromal cells and cell therapy and then kind of orthopedic musculoskeletal that sort of became my focus to use these types of cells for osteoarthritis. But then I very soon became very interested in immunotherapy and that just came from, you know, the experiments that we were doing. And so the early, early focus was just on mesenchymal stromal cells and osteoarthritis. But once we started doing the research and even doing the clinical trials, I soon realized that monocyte macrophages, which are a type of immune cell was really important, both in the disease, but also in sort of the mechanism of the treatment. And so a whole new kind of project. Which has now become a big program within my lab has, has grown and it's kind of grown organically. And then there's been sort of, you know, diversification as the research has gone on. So from there, I become very interested in kind of metabolic and, and the gut microbiota and how it affects these immune cells and how diet and inflammation play a big role in, in arthritis. So. It's like a tree, you know, it's sort of branching and you can chase any one brand. So I still think the main kind of focus is cell and immunotherapies, but then you can you can diversify as much or as little as you want. Right? So I think in the beginning, staying focused is really important. So then you can show you've got a grant and you're able to be productive on it. But it's fun to do collaborations and, and to dabble in research and sometimes something that's a side project suddenly becomes a main thing. And I think that's the best part about research is to be able to have that autonomy to, to kind of follow where the research takes you. Right? Right. And so I think that's exciting and scary at the same time, but I think it just happens and it happens organically for, for most people in, in academia.

Sandrine: 25:36

I think one of the things that you said that I think is really important is that having that initial focus. That's the challenge for many new PIs is that they get excited about so many things that they may throw themselves all over the place, And, maybe it's not sustainable in terms of, the amount of workload, but it is interesting to see how different people approach it. One of the things I'd like to hear about is, who was it that was really, really impactful for you in terms of the support that you had during that period of transition? Who was it that was, part of that community of practice or support environment that really enable you to take these first steps in towards research independence.

Sowmya: 26:19

When I was doing the cell manufacturing and the clinical trials, I was working with the professors who was very supportive, you know, of me moving on and, and doing my own research. So I definitely had kind of his full engagement and support in, in giving me the room to, to transition out of kind of doing. clinical trials and manufacturing, not that I wasn't going to do that, but you know, into starting my own research. I think I had a lot of support there, but I think a person that comes to mind is someone who helped me get one of my first sort of large grants, right? And she really she's a professor in a different hospital, still at the same university. And she was a collaborator that I was working with, and she really helped me to, you know, kind of deconstruct the grant and then kind of piece it back together. A lot of very helpful, constructive criticism very empathetic to, you know, how difficult it is for an early stage researcher to get that first big peer reviewed grant. And she spent a lot of time you know, reading the grant and, and so many iterations, right, reading the grant and really criticizing it and then, you know, helping me kind of figure out the path. Next iteration and then coming back like that's that's really mentorship and and putting time and energy into it. And so that was, I think, something that was so valuable for me, because I didn't I didn't know what I didn't know. Right. And to see the grant from the lens of a very experienced reviewer. And how they might view it and to be able to write it in, in that particular manner. And I'd been to workshops and other things, right? Like where you, you, you hear about this, but to actually personalize it to your specific grant application and literally line by line, word by word to, to kind of read it and, and provide that feedback. I think that was, that was tremendous. And such a service. Because she really didn't stand to gain anything from that. So it was, it was a real active of support and service and giving back to a young person that needed it. So I think I really valued that. And I think it's something that I've tried to do with my trainees, right? Like whether they want to move into industry or how they want to, where they want to go into their next stage in their career, like what they need to sort of get there, what the gaps are. And how we can kind of build on that for them and try to pass that mentorship down that was given to me because I am so very grateful for the support that I received. So I, I think it's important for me to be able to, to provide that or more support for my trainees in turn. I

Sandrine: 29:02

What did you find the most challenging in building a research group? Because there are so many different elements you have to deal with, you know, the amount of space that you're in, lots of negotiation take place, which grant to apply for, who to recruit, you know, the pace of recruitment as well, you know, because you may have the funding. But you may not want to recruit everybody at the same time. these elements that you have to navigate, when you build your research team,

Sowmya: 29:28

mean, in the beginning, it was definitely funding, right? Like I didn't have, I didn't have the money and it was very challenging because you need the funding to generate the preliminary data to get the funding that you need for hiring these people. So that was, I think that was challenging. And then also to attract really good. Students and trainees to come to a lab where, you know, I didn't have big publications and I didn't have funding. So how do you attract high caliber trainees? I think, again, I was very fortunate to have superb trainees very early on and to kind of build that track record with them And also a lot of protocols in my lab were brand new, right? Like, it wasn't like they were well established and the students would come in, take that and they could get a publication. We had to derive the cells. We had to optimize the medium. Like a lot of things had to be done from scratch. So there was. Definitely that element of almost entrepreneurship and ownership that I had to look for in the trainees and staff that I hired. So I think that was definitely that was challenging in the early parts. And then you're right. When you get some funding, you want to be like, Oh, I want to do this and I want to do that. So I think. You know, really staying focused and and doing what you can manage. I like to meet with my students and trainees every week. So, you know, I have seven to eight hours of meetings with with them, right? Like one on ones. So we are, we're spending, I spend a lot of time with them. And I, I didn't want to get so big that I couldn't do that and manage my time and manage my mentorship with them. So I think that's something that. You'll have this, the, you know, you'll have to figure out in your career. I know there are labs where there are senior postdocs or a research associate, and then they kind of take on that mentorship role. I still haven't kind of gotten to that part yet. I still like to do the one on one. So I think for me, the balance of how big I can grow was very much defined by how much time I can spend with them. And, and I wanted to spend with them to mentor them. So I think that was. That was a challenge and a balance that I needed to figure out. And then, you know the space that we're in is, like many of the labs, it's kind of an open concept lab, right? So you're sharing the space with multiple labs in the same space, and you have a little bit of dedicated bed space, but pretty much everything is common. And, you know, scheduling, resourcing, and, and for sure, the Institute is hiring new P. I. S. But the space is still the same amount of space, right? And if you have more students there may be desk space and event space, but there's not enough kind of, you know, incubators and hoods and things like that for them to actually do the experiments. I think that's very challenging. And here in Toronto, where especially our university and the hospitals right here in the downtown hub, there really isn't a lot of space, right? So that's it. A big challenge. So where do we store samples? We're always running out of fridge and freezer space. You know, where do we do kind of our experiments? So, you know, it's forced us to be very, very creative in how we think and how we do our experiments and be very resource savvy in terms of what we do. And this especially happened during COVID, right? Like, we're in every experiment and everything that we did, we had to like, really look at it very carefully. Like, is this really important? What, what's the answer it's going to tell us? Do we need this experiment? And, and if we do it, do we have enough controls? Are we doing it properly? Right? Like to do it carefully and properly first time and get it right. So I think the constraint is very challenging, but it's forced us to, I think, to become better researchers in terms of how we plan and navigate through that constraint. And then the last is, I think the part that you touched on where, you know, you were very interested and, and I think this is something I struggled with early on, right? Like the inability to say no, right? Like you want to say yes to many things. Yes to talking. Yes to writing. Yes to reviewing. Yes to. Collaborating, right? Like so many yeses because you don't know which one will take you to that next level. So want to stay open and you want to stay engaged, but then you become very scattered and you're not able to have impact, right? So it takes, I think, discipline, willpower. And ultimately confidence to be able to say no, right? And that doesn't come right away. It comes with some time to know that I can say no to this. And that's not the end of the road. There will be other opportunities that come after. And it's okay to say no to this, because this is really not, it's not going to help me right now. It's not what I need. I need to. I need to get this grant. I need to get this paper out. And that's what's going to take me to the next level. So I think learning to say no is been what I think one of my biggest challenges and something that I've had to learn to navigate. And it's funny because the Department of Medicine had this workshop for women in science and it was how to say no and everybody showed up and then the person got on stage and she's like, you guys couldn't even say no to this, right? Like, you can't really can't say no. So you're here you are at this workshop. We really need to teach you how to say no. So I think learning that early on is, is also that it was definitely a challenge for me that, you know, I'm, I'm still figuring out, but I think I'm a little bit better now than when I started out.

Sandrine: 34:48

One of the thing that you said you know, in the context that the labs are organized, where you share space with other PIs. one of the thing I'm particularly interested is how we create a positive research culture, within our own team. And obviously when you share the space with many other PIs, culture of the teams that they have may be very different from the culture that you want your own team to have. So how have you been able to, I don't know, to figure that out, you know, in the way that. Maybe some of your PhD students are exposed to way, ways of being or ways of interacting that are like that's not the way we interact with each other, or that's not, that's not what we want for our team. Because obviously you want to maintain good working relationship with your colleagues, but at the same time, it's on you to build a research culture for the group that you have.

Sowmya: 35:43

Yeah, absolutely. So for sure, we've had conflicts, right? And you know, sometimes there's generational differences. So some researchers like to do things in a certain way. It's much more, should we say traditional or old school? And. You know, I have young students or trainees are doing things very differently. So there is, there's definitely been clashes there. I don't know that I have a formula. I think it's case by case rate and I, I've spent time with my students and, and talking to them and advising them and mentoring them. I will go and talk to the other person's supervisor, my colleague, and, you know, have sort of gentle conversations and reminders of how to do it. I think at the end of the day, there still needs to be civility and respect in the research environment, right? People should feel safe and not feel bullied or threatened, right? Like, that's absolutely a no, no. So I think if those types of situations occur, then you have to take that very seriously and try to address that carefully and, and, you know, with respect to sort of both sides of the issues, but that has happened. And. You just, you deal with it on a case by case basis and you kind of, you know, keep reiterating how everybody needs to be respectful and there can be different ways of doing things, you know, and sometimes it's a scheduling thing, right? So, like, changing your schedules to, to have different sort of shifts of work or respecting that people have a certain way of doing things that it may not be your way of doing things, but that's okay to have different ways of doing things and to give them room to do it their way. And then if you need to re, label or re. Categorize it, you can do it this way. And, and it's okay for them to do it that way and you, for you to do it differently. So just teaching people, you know, how to work together and how to talk through things together, right? So you can disagree, but still have communications and, and civil communications. You know, and I, and I try to tell people, you know, when there's conflict, right? Like not to just. Not to escalate it and kind of ignore and avoid that other person and then it creates this unspoken tension, right? Which is very uncomfortable for everyone. So, you know, hello, how are you? You don't have to say anything more than that and smile and but then kind of helps to soften the tension because ultimately my trainees are in the lab with the other people. And they have to be the one that's dealing with it. I can, I can provide guidance. I can help manage it sort of top down, but I'm not in there in the space with them every day to navigate that. So, you know, I have to give them some tools to help them with that. And then, and then do their thing, you know, and, and in this sense, like being a mom, this is really something that I has helped me, right? Like, this is the advice that I give to my daughter when she has to deal with conflicts or bullying or other things at school, right? Like, how to, how to navigate those social problems, really. That's, that's really what we are. We are social beings and whether it's in. A high school or in a middle school, right? It's not that different from being in a lab. It's all about social constructs and problems. And so I think my advice that I give my daughter is is very similar to the advice that I give to my trainees about how to navigate through those situations and challenges. But, of course, they come up because, you know, we're all in the same space and we all have our way of doing things and there's egos and there's this is right. And this is wrong. Right? So how to how to deal with that is challenging. For sure. And it's also challenging, you know, because people come from different cultures and, and, you know, certain things or ways of talking are taken are considered disrespectful. So being sensitive to other people's cultures. And, you know, what you might say. Which seems very matter of fact, but is very offensive to someone else, right? You have to think about how they receive it rather than how you say it. Right? So I think that kind of sensitivity training is also very helpful. So those are some of the things that I, I, I try to talk to my trainees about to figure out how to navigate the space. Yeah.

Sandrine: 39:52

One of the things that I always feel is really important are the rituals that we create, in work environments and, the practices that we have that are part of contributing to the culture of a team. So do you have ritual, do you have practices? What are the things that you do that creates. the culture that you want for your own team.

Sowmya: 40:13

We have lab meetings every week. So we sit together and, you know, we'll, we'll talk about stuff. We'll do round tables where people talk about kind of a specific lab problem they're having. We'll, we'll raise that. But I think beyond that. Team building has been really important to me. So I'll have people over at my place a couple of times a year. We do things together, you know, pumpkin carving during Halloween or like putting together Christmas decorations or a holiday party. We celebrate. Birthdays and things like that. Whenever someone leaves the lab, there's always some kind of send off and gifts and a card. We celebrate, you know, milestones for people. So if there's, if there's a pregnancy, we'll have a baby shower, whether it's male or female, we'll do that. So I think. That helps to kind of personalize the environment a little bit and, you know, and see team members is as human beings with other aspects of their lives. And it's really important for me to share kind of some of my personal aspects of my life and the challenges that I have so they can see context that I come from as well. So I think seeing people in their context really helps. So I don't know that they're rituals, but, yeah, these are things that I look forward to. We'll do team lunches together. Team picnics together. So I think those are the kinds of things and everyone's included, even if they're summer students or undergraduates, right? So it's, it's very inclusive and open. And we encourage people to come and share stories. We do a lot of potlucks. So, you know, because the group is so multicultural, that's always fun to have, like, different kinds of foods and learning the names and the proper pronunciations and, and the ingredients and swapping recipes. So I think there's. There is that aspect. So it's, it's, I think, one of openness and and feeling comfortable to, to kind of be yourself in that environment, which is what I'm trying to create for, for the lab setting and, and allowing people to open up and grow into that. Certainly, you know, newcomers when they come in, they're not, they're not part of that, but, you know, I, I like to see them through their journey to kind of. To open up and contribute and be part of that and feel part of that environment and feel supported and taken care of during their journey with me.

Sandrine: 42:32

I don't tend to ask people to give advice, but if you're reflecting on, the years that you've had, as a PI and you've observed, PhD students, come and go and move on in their career. What would you say to, you know, to younger researchers in terms of, what do they need to be daring about

Sowmya: 42:51

I think it's okay to take risks. Right? And I think it's paid off for me. Right? Like, I mean, it's come. With stuff, but like changing, going into industry, coming back to academia, these are not small changes. And these have been, you know, risks and jumps that I've had to take. And it comes with a leap of faith. So I would say you don't have to be, you know, Challenge sort of conventional wisdom and do do do things that you think are something you're passionate about and you want to do right, regardless of the challenges and break the challenges into smaller sub challenges. And then, you know, you tackle them one at a time. If you take the whole thing, of course, you're gonna be overwhelmed, but you can, you can take it and break it down and go to it. But I would say, do take risks. And and don't be afraid to try something new and something different and feel like, oh, it's going to take you away from your path. Who knows that could be your path, right? So you don't know that. So allow yourself some exploration, right? That that can take you somewhere and I'm a big believer in serendipity and the role the universe plays in terms of like giving you sort of some of the pathways that you need to get to. So I think it's, it's okay to explore and to dabble and and to try things and to take some risks, especially early on and not be too conservative very early on. Right. And. And as you go again, like I said, it's, it's this balance between like exploring and trying things, but also staying focused and and cultivating, I think, friendships and networks is, I think, really important because that will help you to bounce ideas, but also to get some reality checks along the way of like, you're doing too much, you're too scattered, right? Like to have people who can tell you some of these home truths to you. I think that's really, that's really important. Key and healthy for you. So do have some of those types of relationships that you're building along your career and that you can talk to people like that. And whether it's a mentor or a friend or a colleague that you can bounce some of those ideas. I think that's really important. And, and part of like how you would challenge yourself. Yeah, I think that's, that's what, that's what's worked for me anyway. And, and maybe that's the advice I would give people is, is don't be, don't be too conservative and do, do explore and try new things, especially early on.

Sandrine: 45:11

Thank you. And my last question for our conversation is going to be about joy. What gives you joy? in research.

Sowmya: 45:19

Oh, and research. It's a very broad question otherwise. you know, sometimes you struggle at ideas and concepts for a long time, right? And you don't really it's illusive, right? Because you think it's going to be something. But then it comes together very nicely and seeing that kind of blossom is lovely. And I think for me. It's seeing that blossom, especially in my trainees, right? And when they're starting, I'm telling them, right? it's very didactic. So it's like, I'm telling them stuff. And then as they progress, we're having equal conversations and it's more of a discussion. And then towards the end, you know, I'm like, well, what do you think? Right? Like they're the ones telling me, and I love that arc and that journey. And it's. And I think that's very rewarding. And the joy that is something that I really enjoy that whole mentorship and that journey to see them coming from where they are and leaving as very confident, hopefully confident, mature individuals that are looking to make solid contributions in the world as citizens and and within the research space, whether in academia or in industry. So I think that is something that really Makes me want to do what I do every day. And when they sort of hit that research aspect, right? And things that have been very elusive, either for them conceptually or technically, and then it comes together very nicely to see them kind of grasp that and then to see the data and to see it makes sense. And it's like the puzzle pieces are falling into place, both in my head, but also in theirs. That's, that's really nice. Doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it's lovely.

Sandrine: 47:00

Wonderful to hear that. Thank you so, so much for this conversation. Really appreciated that you give us this time. Thank you.

Sowmya: 47:09

Thank you for having me.