Anne Zanussi, Sintillia

On this week’s episode of Girl Gang the Podcast, I interview Anne Zanussi, Founder of Sintillia (@sintillia). 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Thanks for tuning into the podcast. My name is amy[inaudible] and I'm a creator and collaborator based in Los Angeles and the founder of Girl Gang, the label.com. We encourage the aspiring highlight, the doers and most importantly get real about the highs and lows of female entrepreneurship. Get ready world. The future is here and she's a boss. Hi, my name is Lucy and I'm the owner of Scintilla. And you're listening to girl gang, the podcast. Okay. So, and, and I know each other from college. We both graduated from calhoun thread. And um, during your time there you studied abroad in China. Studied business. I feel like you were a girl boss from college. Can you talk a little bit about that experience? Yeah. You know, when I was at cal Lu they offered Chinese and it was a really small class of like 10 people and I got really close with my Chinese teacher and one day she, she had a bunch of people from the Chinese government visiting and they were like, you know, you should consider applying for the scholarship to go and study full time just Chinese over abroad. So I went for it and um, I received the scholarship which was, I mean, you can't turn that down, but I wasn't that into Chinese at the time or it wasn't that sat on it. And then when I went over there I realized I was going to fully immerse myself in learning the language, which I think you have to do with that language because otherwise it's a bit of a waste because it's so challenging. So, um, yeah, I went abroad and then I studied every day full time Chinese place, which I mean it's just such an empowering thing I think as a female business owner and if you're setting up factories overseas and being able to communicate with people in their own language, do you think it set you apart and you had an advantage when you were sourcing factories? The first thing they say when I visited, is that a factory in Chinese is that I can speak Chinese. They tell him, warn everyone, which to me says a lot about the benefit of knowing any. Can you touch on the experience of sourcing your own factory and what that was like? When? I first came up with the idea, I don't want them to copy it, so I literally told them that they were necklaces and then I have three different factories. I had one for the attachment, one for the, a little tag that has my name on it, this until the attack, and then I had one for the actual chains and so I wouldn't have them shipped to each other. And at the very end of the process I said like, can you put these attachments on the end? And I would draw a diagram. So they literally thought until my first visit, they thought they were making different styles, would, they'd call them catches. Okay, we'll put the catches on. And then when we went to visit we were trying them on our head with the glasses and they walked in and I mean, I think they obviously figured out eventually, but that was my biggest challenge going into it was like, how am I going to not get ripped off right away? Um, and building that trust first. And then I've now switched factories. I have got, I've gotten it down to just two factories. So eventually as you build the relationship, they'll start sourcing everything for you because they want to help you and they want to see you take out a step in the supply chain because it takes time, you know, if you have different sources shipping to each other, um, you know, it just, it's become so much more efficient. Someone that wants to be sourcing something in China doesn't speak Chinese, doesn't have the ability to go over there. Is there some advice you can give them getting into that process? Yeah, I actually just helped my friends recently. They wanted to make jackets and I walked them through the process and there's just little things to, to, uh, keep an eye out for. Like when you go to the sample phase, I think you can tell a lot about the factory. You immediately will be able to tell like, how much are they charging you on shipping? Are they willing to split the sample cost with you? I found that either free shipping or splitting the sample cost showed that they took you seriously. A lot of times they'll say, oh, we'll make a free sample, but the shipping is$200, so there's like little sneaky ways that in the beginning you can tell if they're a respectable company or not. So I think going into it, you really have to test the waters before you just trust any supplier. But I will say it's easier than people think. So you kind of think of it like you're shopping, you just test out different factories and then you know, seeing, you get, you get five quotes from various factories about what the sample is going to cost, the shipping is and you'll start to immediately build a fish off the good ones. You ever have to defend your company for that. Does anyone question Yay. There's a stigma with that whole data in China, mean change out to the eye gets called and you see their scarves. That child people are starving and the emerging market over there, it's created so many jobs for them to literally put food on the table. So yeah, there's definitely a stigma that if you feel like you're ripping them off or that really deal with it, you're really not. You're, you're helping people and really feed their children and it's. It's not, it's not all people thing. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of patience and working with a manufacturer overseas? I always say whatever shipping times and they give you five days because they want to please you, but it's absolutely always wait. Really can't plan around it. It's just I feel like the product first and then you have to take the other stuff. Let's figure out what you can do in the meantime until the product is in your hands because there will need to be tweaks. You might. I mean just very rarely you get it right the first time. If you're creating something from. I think patients helps them to process if that's around, this one wants to go and I always say something like, I wouldn't bother wait two more days and have an extra inspection where, you know, attention to detail, a rush to meet a deadline under promise over deliver for me. If you say it's gonna take 20 days and it takes 15, I'd rather have that than say 10 annotate 15, just like do what you need to and we're here. But um, I think a lot of people to, you know, if they're used to manufacturing in the US and they're working over there and they're like, I get it quicker, what are you, you know, I can't wait for the customers all this. And it's like two different things. You have to figure out what works best for your business. That I think manufacturing overseas is a very viable option if someone's willing to be patient and take the time. And it seems very intimidating. I think a lot of people don't get prototypes made or start businesses because. Right. Where do you start? And I think you've given some good tools on that. Is there anything else you want to touch on for someone that might want to go start that process? Yeah, I think the number one thing is, so this is a few things that I look for. Like I said, when you shop around for me actually can use Ali Baba to communicate at all when I help my friends with the jackets through Ali Baba. I like that. The personal relationship, I'll give them my whatsapp number so we can text you immediately try to skype. The other thing would just be don't rush like patient, assemble a pay for the second revision. Joan China, Russia because once they mass produce the boxes there and it's so much better to take your time and it's really not that hard. It's really not. Once you get a sample made and it arise, you can alter, you can draw these diagrams. You don't have to be a designer to be able to produce a product. You draw on paper sometimes pictures, which I think is so cool. I love when I like I used to work in the same office space and when I walked by and go her shoulder and she's just like stretching, like, no, but this should go here. I can't. I can't draw a stick figure. It's literally you're like, you know, this is three, seven years. You know what I mean? This year I need this to the left and right, and then, you know, I think my biggest advice is to not get intimidated by it and is only Baba a good place that you'd recommend for someone to start looking or is there something better? Yeah, I think so. I, I know there are factories that are not honest and a recent new, when my friends were doing the job, I was reminded of that, that you know the little whiskeys you paid by paypal and then he would never seen the wire transfer. If you haven't worked with them yet, will it makes more sense to do it later on, but for your first pay, the extra four percent it is pay coffee because paypal is for the user that user's first the business second and I know that from both aspects as the business owner and the user and if you do not get your goods, if he were scammed, if something isn't working, they just goes to you. You can get your money back, which is an amazing feeling. And also I think that relieves some pressure. So if you're also something I would say talking to a factory in, the first thing you can do is only wired transfer, just they might not be the right fit because they all have paint. No. Moneygram, Western Union, which is basically people don't know because like they don't have the cash to the factory. All of those I would stand out. So one thing you talked about when you were setting up the factory was really protecting this idea because no one had to come up with it yet. Can you talk about what sparked the inspiration of creating Scintilla? But yeah, once I had an idea and then I. and then I really realized the whole of the market, the market was my Aha moment of okay, you have to start this. So then I moved home to my parents and now I never looked back. I never had a day that I thought Oh, this isn't gonna work. Uh, okay. Maybe in the beginning you're nervous, but like what does different than giving up? So being nervous and like, I just don't think you can go into it with any idea other than that sounds really cheesy, but you literally just have to be obsessed with it. And then um, I remember you taught me because you and I kind of became pen pals because you started studying business and I think you reached out and then you told me to keep a log next to my desk. I'm like little monumental things. Even if it was a small as like, Oh, a boxer act today, you know, I heard back from the store or I got into international shipment, Korean mom under and so doing that, I still have those. But they were like a timeline and you told me to do that. I only did it for like the first six months, which is the most crucial and that's enough going on that you can keep yourself motivated. And I think it's just really important to also revisit those, to bring me back to an appreciative place. You don't need to be doing them every day, you know, years into your business, but it's always going to be your ended up like, Oh wow, I'm going back through that feeling of like who my first wholesale order. Can you take me through what that felt like for you? Because you have, you're in. How many stores are you in? I sold to over a amateur in Bikini Dotcom. Name three people like all of that. Can you, um, talk about the first wholesale order and what those emotions were like for you? Free. The biggest because they were always a brand that inspire me. And so they were definitely interested earlier. I mean, what did that feel like when that process you're going through? I found the buyer and instagram in drag message, like, Hey, can you send me some samples? And she's, she accepted and then it was just what you've taught me, which was like follow till they're going to tell you to leave us alone. So I haven't really thought that she must think I'm so one day it was just a real quiet like yeah, we'd like to order for the festival collection, which was even more excited because I started the brands like I mentioned earlier about the music festival inspiration. So they're like, yeah, you know, we wanted to be on our web shop for they have like a festival pop up on their website taking thing. So free people was really emotionally. That was definitely the tail that most of that brand. But you literally want to get on a roll. It's like you just start small boutiques and stuff and then the free bill bumps emailing you have your shipping to free people or. And it just kinda happens because like I said, when you have that positive, like it's just that you get on that role before you know, you kind of pinch yourself and you're like, oh okay, this is Fox says through. People just go, yeah, but if you stay humble because you almost don't believe it. Okay, this is cool. When you're dealing with these bigger grants and things that are exciting and so important to remember to, um, stay focused on customer service. Don't forget about your customer that I order to come up color and issue taking those emails because you're building a brand and if you just let it get to your head and start focusing on the exciting stuff, you know, you want people to have that relationship and customer service they think is a strength that I have and I literally do anything to make them happy. It makes me sad and I realize now how many replies I get that thing, oh my gosh, this is the best customer service ever because you realize how to use to being ripped up. People are treated badly or not reply to. And so I'm always just like, oh, it got lost in the mail, you know, let me send you a new one and I gift card. Or I find that gift cards are a really great way to redeem yourself actually, because let's say somebody is, the postman lost the package. You can, you can tell them that one eventually arrives. If it does, they can keep it, you can send them a replacement, but then how are you going to get them back? Is their first experience. Maybe it was out of your control, like the mailman rustic. Um, I find like, oh, and I'm going to just email you a$50 dollar gift card for the future. You want to have them come back again for courage. I and um, yeah, I always offer something and then I literally will often do things extra. Usually gift card. It's such a good idea to choose it and it really incentivize them to come back where you're totally right. It's really, you need to go above and beyond, do you really need to serve your customer and when you don't use sales dropped like when we've been too swamped and corey and I are the only ones doing customer service and we get behind even a few days. You feel the effect and you're losing people that are not. It's very hard to gain new customers. And so if you really focus on the people that are coming in and training them, well, you get the new customers and then you also have the old customers coming in and telling their friends and then that's where you can really grow a business where you can't grow a business off just pissing a bunch of people off and keep on moving forward and like waiting for these big orders and exciting things you need to. It's just a balancing act. Right. And I think it's like if you took one year of all the additional like gift cards or actually shipping maybe through little mistakes they'll have in here and he added that up that that total is definitely less than the customers that you lose if you like, you know, with any kind of ego or that you're like some big brand that doesn't have time to fix the problem. And even communicating with them that you're small. That's. Yeah. I guess thing that I've learned when we've gotten too swamped and we don't have someone that's managing the customer service and we get behind and you're trying to put on this facade like you're a big brand, people do feel ripped off. They, you know, and the second that I decided to just unveiled who we really are and just sent out a mass email like, hey, we are dealing with a higher demand of quarters that we're used to. It's going to take a few days to get back to you. It's just my husband and I. I'm really sorry. You know, we're trying our best people come back. So I think that's the thing too. Sometimes you get in over your head and if you are a small business, you can be in all places at once. Customer service data need to be a priority and sometimes shipping takes up too much time to even do that. But if you're just honest and communicate with them and let them feel heard, they will come back. But I think it's that ego and facades that really pushes people away. And I think embracing the small business lifestyle excites people and they want to support Rio, especially now because of like shark tank and uh, just the, the, that outward in, I think it's um, they really have more patients that you say, you know, I'm just a small startup up and everything. And I had the conversation about do wheat or oh my gosh, I have to say like, we, you know, we're really sorry about the lost package or I like if it's just used, sometimes it's okay to just say, Hey, know a really scary thing. I think to put yourself out there and say the brand deny are the same thing. So I'm asking you not just to trust my, I'm asking you to trust me. It's a very scary like putting your picture on the website, describing your story. It's like, okay, so now this is me. You know, I can't hide behind a fake business thing. I'm not. So if they don't like the business is that they don't like me, it's a really scary thing to do. But I think people respond to it very well and you're just honest. Someone told me recently like, you know, they really trust you when they order online and you never really think about that, but like 10 years ago you'd go to a store and you buy something, you're seeing product into the bag, you're getting our C and you're walking out with it and now like you complete your smartphone out and gets your credit card out and order something and it's like a virtual trust the mail. And when you think about it like that, you'll take your customer service is much more seriously because you're like, oh, these people literally went on their website in order it close the computer and run. How was your day? You know? So that's why I think it's so important to keep up those customers, sears customer service. So seriously, no matter how big you get and hire out when it's due so that you don't forget about that because the big ones will come and go. And so yeah, your brand is the number one thing, um, the experience more than the product. Can you give our listeners some advice? If you're just reaching out to a branch that you want to work with and also how you got all of these wholesale accounts to reach out to you. Um, well in the beginning because I haven't been product that people, people aren't googling for the product. I have spent a lot of money and I was and before were doing. And you got it. At first it was like a thousand dollars minimum five. So yeah, I got it when there's a really high return on influences, um, innovation. And so I did have a lot of inquiries coming in from wholesale accounts and because of that, I mean I feel kind of a business model around that which has been really lucky for it. But it's also customer money to do all that artistic stuff. There's two ways to do it. Yeah, you can spend a lot to kind of put it out there for people to see and then have people come to you to put it in their store or you can literally start from scratch and with each other. Um, I mean I have three people from DMA buyer, so I mean creative is really important because a, you did a lot of those emails. I get emails from like shopify apps and stuff and you just kind of asked yourself when you can feel that it's like spammy. So another thing a friend just taught me, just do ab testing. You send out emails, don't send out angry and changed it, put a question mark in the, in the subject or you know, do an exclamation point where you didn't in the previous email and see who replies. That's such a good idea. Yeah, we do need to be doing ab testing even on your outbound emails. It doesn't have to be an email marketing campaign. Even if you reorder the email and then you know, the way you say, okay, I look forward to getting in touch, see at the beginning, at the end, and then keeping it concise is my biggest weakness. But I'm really working on it like going through ticket and you talked, but I still practice. Um, so you're just so reasonable precedence. That's an amazing thing to have. But it's a love story in a sentence, but I'm keeping it concise. And then ask yourself, um, yeah, one of the fluff words, take those out and just be very the fat, trim the fat and then do the Ab testing and really been a kind of achieved by lately because I'm doing, I'm doing outreach to your customer right now and film festivals and Events and I'm just paying attention to who's your client and what I did that enough and if I had sent out 20th the same because some people do that. They copy and paste and just changed the name. Um, how'd you know what works, you know, so. And you're available now on bikini.com as a very recently. Can you tell us about that process? They reached out about being in one of their subscription boxes? I think it was. Yeah. And they're like, Hey, do you want to donate products to be in the box? And was like, yeah, for sure. You know, how many do you need? And I think that's another way to get in is like be willing to give stuff for free and it will return itself and sure enough they put it in the box, it was a hit and then they reached out saying, you actually we want to concern or ecommerce, so don't be afraid to fail, don't be afraid to use your product as a marketing cost. I think it's the smartest thing to do. We've actually had always told me that it's just using that. At the end of the day someone's using your product and if you truly believe in it, you will get the return. And also touching on that, do you. I do a lot of influencer marketing still. How has that evolved for you since when you started? Because I, whenever anyone talks about influencer marketing, I'm just like my friend and she literally like the perfect. Perfect, perfect time. Yeah. And it really helped to elevate your business. Do you still feel dependent on it? Are essentially a really growing on itself now? I have such mixed feelings about it. I have a love hate relationship with it. The first time I did an influencer post, I got a$10,000 and we made about 10 within a few days if not within 48 hours. And I was like, whoa. So then with that money, instead of getting excited spent paying who like it was a train that goes on for a long time. I think our first year I spent like$40,000 from 500$3,500 post. I think the longevity of it has trickled over now I'm lucky because that's how I think all. That's how I know all wholesalers originally found us, but I do have a really different view on it now. I think it's to be totally honest, I think it's very saturated and competitive and expensive. I think the return is you're lucky you didn't make your money back. That's it. It works for some people. I also think it's really hard to measure the return a much greater than it used to be because you used to go on instagram and see influencer posts were now you want to see. So yeah, it used to be a lot easier just to know what was coming from I really deep in it anymore, unless it's someone that I think like Tasha ugly who built the brand so you don't see it as like, oh I hope he doesn't see it as like I'm going to get this amazing photo with this girl that is my ranch is what I picture when I picture in the imagery you have with when you worked with her, I mean and you can use that consistently, keep on using that imagery. So that's important. It's just a case by case thing, but I definitely think it influenced the marketing. When you first got into it, it was amazing because you could just put in such a smaller amount and see quite a big return if you will, you the right influencer and now you just kind of. The ones I see doing it successfully are really being everywhere. You know, you're not just like here and there for a cash boost to keep on investing in marketing. The ones that are doing well, it's like well we're everywhere. You see us at every touch point, so hard to get through the noise now. Instagram's algorithm and so many sponsor posts. If you just invest in one, I don't think it's a good idea for someone just getting into a business if they're short on cash. He really putting that in. It's just so much more expensive than it used to be too. I guess my biggest advice would just be invested is if it's really rad, but if you're just trying to make a quick buck, I wouldn't. Don't start a business if you're just trying to make a quick buck. That's the priority. Yeah. Are you feeling businesses priority? You're a second. Yeah, and money. Wherever you had little things and then just cheap$10 the same age. You and just be so mindful of that in the game because just so many companies fail. Right now we're in the civic center where your new offices and then we work here, which is so exciting. It has not always been this way. Can you please talk about the scaling journey and the different types of setups that you've had throughout this whole time? You have helped me with my first office because you were like, hey, why don't you come? I was touring the, we were over there, it was budget. You were like my lobby into a, like a little workspace and just make it work and you allowed me to be able to afford to have my first face to work out, which was the best. And then we worked out of there and that's my favorite was always. That was an amazing chapter for two years in all the lunch places we would go to Jones bar. So then to see now, oh my gosh, we had amazing times there. And um, I mean you really killed it in that office. We're like dogs. We both had employees will after that too. I think this goes back to the stealing money. I had like six of my girlfriend's getting married in a year and it was just like, look, I'm going to be traveling every single one to either Bachelorette or some party or go out of towner. I just don't need a fixed cost of an office. So I didn't have enough office for the last nine months. I just worked from home and I definitely was tiring at the end when that's the kind of stuff where it's like, you do have to watch your overhead. So when I turned the civic design center, I knew it was an opening in January, so I just plan accordingly. And um, now I'm so excited obviously to be here, but I just think about money today when it wasn't necessary to happen. Can you also briefly touch on working from your parents' basement because you were doing some big things in your company while you were in there? It was just crazy to think about and I think a lot of people, they're like running business for businesses for their kitchen or maybe don't want to start because I can't get an office space or I live in a studio apartment. Like you were in your parents' basement just online and wholesale orders. That was a peak. Have been working with all these influencers. You should be now. I hundreds of orders at a time. Can you take us a little bit through that process and maybe some fond memories you had in there? We had to build store displays so we would build up in the garage. I'm from Minnesota, it's freezing in the winter and we have space heaters and my dad loved it because we would go to home depot and just file a supportive like he loved to have like an assembly line situation going on and then the last step was like painting the displays and all that and then now we incorporate those into the experience and I just, yeah, I picture a bit of a mess, a of the laundry basket, like just making it work and you really don't need to have an office in order to start. The basement was also lived. They remodeled it, so that was kind of like an apartment, but I had enough space to run the company. That's the thing is you can't really replace those memories when you're outgrowing yourself. I think that's the most exciting place to be and we touched on it earlier. It's just you're out of place and the demand is higher than what you're willing to offer and you figure out how to make it work. So you're working your brain in a creative way, you're improvising and you're looking at what's in front of you and say, what can I do? And if it's just home depot and your dad and doing an assembly line, you're going to get into Bell Obama. But if you don't have an attitude like that, you hold yourself back and you're like, oh, well, I don't have these sleek designs that I don't have this, I can't do it. You won't get to the point that you're at now while we're sitting in the civic design center on the penthouse floor. You know, it really is like starting from the bottom. Now we're here. It's like, it depends something that I don't see myself at all, which is good. But sometimes they think that's an entrepreneur's like biggest struggle is like being proud of yourself and not always wanting more. Um, and just, yeah, like it's not until this interview literally then it relates to more, do you know, I'm very hard on myself, which is good because it makes for a successful business. But it's also, um, it can be, it can be dangerous, superior own worst critic. Yeah. It's important to just reflect on what you've done, who you've taught me that a lot. Interesting. Its kind of the journey. Yeah. And just be present. And that's, I think that not everyone does have a personality type to do what we're doing because if you need tons of affirmations, tons of rewards along the way, you know, there's other things that might better suit you. But for this it's just about what's right in front of you. You've taught me a lot, you know, work smart instead of work really, really hard work smart. So like instead of forcing yourself to be in the office from eight to five, maybe you go at 11 to four or whatever, but you're fully present and fully there. Yeah. Me, I'm already used to Tony and put your phone on to. And I think that's a really good idea. I'm just, oh my gosh. And you really have to find friends and people that are supportive of your lifestyle too because it's so nice to just not be able to just check out from personal life and be present and come back to it and no one's like, why didn't you get back to me? Like we were supposed to have phone call a day. It's like, I think that's another important thing is to surround yourself with people that understand this lifestyle you've chosen and that you believe in it so much and you don't. And for me, I just feel there's no need to escape it. I don't mean to talk on the phone for two hours with someone for a day, like honestly vacations. I look forward to them, but I just can't wait to get back to building my baby. I'm just like, I'm just. It's just such a different mindset. And so I think it's important to have other people that either have the same mindset or appreciate yours and understand that you're different and so you can just set yourself up for success. But another really important thing he taught me is what are you going after? And it doesn't have to be what the person you look up to is going after. So if you admire someone who is blind will company up to multimillions of dollars and that's her gene. That can be her dream. But like, what is your goal? You know, when you want to do everyday when you wake up, do you want to run a small business that can scale with less employees or do you want, is your goal to have, you know, 50 people working for you? And I think you asked me that like a year ago and I really it because there were times that I wasn't, I wouldn't say I wasn't happy but just overstressed or like stress rule my life and like I thrive on stress. But it also, there was definitely a point where it's like I felt like I was losing my mind and I needed to get help hired help. I am much happier now with the way that I've kind of restructured and we evaluated like, what, where am I going? What, what, what is the next five years ago look like, you know, eight to five to me or do you want to work like one day we eat, you know, like do you want to start other things and for you, I mean that's been another thing I just have loved watching over the last year. You're such a creative person and I feel like it's really a philosophy. Can you talk about scaling outward a little bit and how you got to chokers and know with your recent scars which are so cute and all the photo shoots you're doing and content you're creating. It just seems like this fire is lit inside of you creatively. Can you touch on that creativity? I kind of had like a little bit of a wall which is normal intake, writer's block, and so to get inspired if they just get up and do stuff to feel that fire again and I think it's normal to kind of hit a point in business really well what's next? Sometimes when people feel stuck they think like all I can do is climb up and there's no more steps and then you could just say what would happen if I walked a little bit to the left or walked a little bit to the right instead at the end of the day, just keep moving, you know, so if you feel a law, I think thinking outside of the box is the best thing to do and you've done a really good job in it and I love your term like we got your neckline cover it and so it seems like you're just really trying to find creative voice or Rhonda Net Clients Style and interesting to see how you've come up with really creative ways to incorporate that. And I think you just have to be excited. Like don't[inaudible]. There was before the scarves, I was like, I want to launch anything else. I wanted to do something else, but if I'm not excited about it, like I didn't want to just want something because I felt like that was the next step. So there was a gap to the jokers and scarves. And then it was like, I don't want to do accessories because the chains do go in your hair or do I wanna like where do I last fall? And then the whole eating things that are kind of just lost it that you're passionate about is so different than like, okay, that's the next stage of business. This is a trend that going to. It's like you're wearing one right now. This is something that you are, oh my gosh, they're so darling. We're pairing them with our crew necks for a photo shoot this weekend, which I'm so excited about. But I think that that's what's important too is there is no playbook. It's more just how are you going to feed your soul and then also feed yourself and make sure you make money, but you. And what trends excite you or even if something isn't a trend, what excites you and what do you feel just so passionate about. You want to see what happens. And so I see a lot of that in the future for you and I think you've done a good job. It just like conservatively adding new things and seeing what sticks but doing what you like. I think just finding that fire to be creative and then just like learning it blossom sounds so cheesy, but like some of the stuff was hsn thinking about once day for like a year. The most scared urban, but it's like once it's over and you can do something like that, you just build your confidence. Can you talk more about what that was like being on not just a just anybody's Hsn, American dreams and you were on national television. Can you take us through that? Yeah. American Jews where they feature or small startups. That was the most extensive so it was so much work but it's so rewarding and then when I was reading on the plane to go to actually like physically sick, I was so nervous and once I did it it was fine. Oh my gosh. She looked at me onto, you know the name, but it was still early in the running because they give you a really hard time slot because I want to test it. So 7:00 AM eastern time, which is like most of the countries asleep and because we flew from la it was kinda like I was waking up at two in the morning, three in the morning and pitching the product at 3:34. And so, I mean it was basically doing it in the middle of the night. Your adrenaline is going so much that it doesn't matter. Um, amazing experience. You just applied and took a risk and ended up doing it. And it's just so different than sitting behind a computer and printing out a shipping label for a huge retailer. It's something I think you can really be more present for and realize like, oh my gosh, my product is like, I have a brand and don't freak yourself out. So that, that was something I stressed about in a good way. I was excited. I've never been so scared. I mean, and then I look back, I'm like, man, if I just use that energy that I spent worrying and not, not that I didn't believe in myself, but I was just like, this is so outside of your comfort zone. If I put that into just celebrating it, like I didn't, I didn't enjoy it at all until it was over because I was upstairs. So it was like kind of thing I woke up and just get so nervous about everyday. So yeah, I mean it's crazy. Who Do you look up to and you're a girl gang. And why you say that higher? Remember when you reached out? I was like, you were so helpful and your college it, a pen pal and you literally would take the time to write me these facebook messages. You would read these students. I will read them like two times over and I was so great. I'm like, who's this girl that she's helping you learn? Mostly emotionally helping me to like give me all these ideas. But you'd also then know you got this or like don't get frustrated or. Not that I was frustrated but just, I was just so naive in the beginning. Um, you absolutely. And then when I came to La and said I was going to move out here and started hanging out with you, I mean you 100 percent just been, you've been, you're probably the first tax penalties and everything that happened in my business. I swear. I think actually everybody in my phone is ringing work. Oh my gosh. Still chief, like amy word that happens. Good or bad. I'm like, oh my gosh. And you saved. Yeah, you are absolutely my biggest role model. Oh my gosh. I am not just saying that. It's so true. I'm really going to keep at it now contact. I'm just so proud of you. And I've always exciting to the from the get go when you started this because I feel like there's just a big wave going on and women are supporting women for a little girl gang. It's all really exciting. But it wasn't like that five years ago. And so I was just really excited to see someone younger and from the same college that I went to and we knew each other from mutual friends. We didn't hang out with a lot though, but I was like, oh my gosh, she's starting something like I need to. And I was so passionate about what I was doing and I had made so many mistakes early on. I was like, I hope that I can turn some mistakes I made and to maybe she can skip some stuff I did wrong. And the um, the biggest thing, I think it's just support, like figuring out how to find support, you know, and um, and it keeps you going because it is unknown. Nothing's guaranteed. This is a crazy life that we've chosen with highs and lows. It's never just normal. You've been laying the biggest accelerator, like you know how to know when to step back. Let's just celebrate that. It's just like it's telling me that they even reply and you find the positive and when things go wrong, oh my gosh, here's my struggle or challenge. So I think that's the biggest thing is you can't control what happens. You can control your reaction to it. Because I remember when my friend sent me the photo of the chains in target there lately dollars. Some people were like, oh shit, the bad. And the other people were like, okay, I don't know. I'm thinking about that. And you were immediately like, no, this is a good thing that this means you've proven the market. Like you immediately put a positive on it and share that. I think it was three months later that he reached out and asked them how they found us and they said, oh, we googled like fashionable fashion chain is like boom, I'm getting chills just target. It could have been targeted even anything. But like because someone copying somebody, you are working now with him. You literally just mentioned the biggest thing that's ever happened happened from what some people might look at as a negative. I mean I get that reaction all the time if I come up with something or a product we have and people are like, oh no, look. I'm like, okay. Like I'm not trying to create a monopoly. I think that's a big thing of entrepreneurship. If you're not inventing something proprietary, you have to be open to people copying you. Just on the flip side, if you're inspired to start something, but you're like, oh, nordstrom has this product. I thought Ms Dot, I want to do it a different way that they're already doing it. On the flip side, you can also do it. Yeah, like it doesn't have to be. It shouldn't be just one person doing something all the time. Thank you so much and for taking the time to sit down and talk today. So as stored tap. So yeah, we're done. Done. You feel like I just wrote a book. Thank you girl gang for listening to our podcast. If you enjoyed it, please take a minute to leave a review. It helps us out so much to learn more about this week's guest and see behind the scenes footage of our podcast. Go to girl gang, the label.com. Enjoy 10 percent off of all support your local girl gang merchandise with code girl gang. If you have any feedback, guests, recommendations questions or just want to say, hey, email me at amy at girl gang. The label.com.