How can you discover your best career match? How can you gain the confidence to make your next career move? Hello, I'm Chester Elton and this is my dear friend and co-author, Adrian Gostick. Well, thanks, Ches. Yeah, if you're a neurodivergent adult or teen who's struggling to find the best career path, well, look no further than our episode today. As always, we hope the time you spend with us will help reduce the stigma of anxiety at work and in your personal life. And with us is our new friend, Shil Mendelson, who has a master's in counseling with an emphasis on career development. She has helped hundreds of ADHD adults and young adults over the past 35 years find a fulfilling and sustainable career direction. She is the author of the new book, Unlock Your Career Path, a course for ADHD adults and teens. Her book aims to help adults and teens develop confidence in taking clear next steps in their career, whether it be a specific job, career path, lateral move, or with a new refined business model shall we're delighted to have you on the podcast. Thanks for finding the time to be with us today I'm delighted to be here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much But before we jump in with our wonderful guests, we just want to give a shout out to our wonderful sponsor Magic mind it's a product that I love it helps you manage your anxiety It helps you get in the flow And if you look in the show notes, you can click on there and get a 20% discount by just putting in Gostick and Nelton 20. And if you have an annual subscription, it can save you up to 48%. We're delighted to have them on the show and we're delighted to jump in with our guests. Well we are, we're thrilled to talk about this. We haven't addressed ADHD too much, but in our, on our podcast over the last couple years but it's such a big issue so many people have been diagnosed and you say you were diagnosed later in life as an adult I think maybe like a lot of people we don't know when sometimes when we have ADHD so help us understand ADHD what is it how do you know if you have it well for me it took a big life shift, something that was kind of a dramatic downswing after having acknowledged that there was something off. And the idea of ADHD actually didn't even come into it at the time. I just knew that two years before, a very good friend of mine who was a therapist sent me a book on ADHD and I proceeded to put it in the drawer and pretend like it never arrived, because I was in such denial at that point. And I, again, I thought it was for kids. I was so ignorant, let's put it that way, on what it was and how it might be affecting me personally. But then I had a very personal career process or position. Actually, I started a company and I was the CEO and founder of it. It was fairly successful, but I wasn't. I was, after years of doing it, I just started actually feeling very trapped and it was impacting everything I was doing, my work with people. I just felt like I could do no right. And so I got out of that one, not in a good way. And that's when I went into kind of a pretty big downswing. I'll say it wasn't formally diagnosis depression, but I would say there was something like that. And I literally went crawling over to the bookshelf where that book was and put my hands on it. And I read through it and I went, oh my gosh, I'm not alone, I'm not crazy. And I finally got a formal diagnosis after that and it changed everything. It changed the, I was working a career for 35 years, I was doing this work for 35 years with neurotypical people, with everyone really, and it just helped me to say to work with my tribe of ADHD adults. Help us understand what it is, what the aha for you was that this is ADHD. Well I didn't even know that's what it was until I read through the book, but what the aha was was that something was off that had been off for years and I couldn't put my hands on it because actually I was doing work I enjoyed. Okay. So that's a big hint for people. If you're in a job that you really don't like and you suspect you have ADHD or you're you're diagnosed with it. It's never gonna work not to be doing work that you enjoy. At that point, I was miserable and I was making mistakes and I was distracted and I just couldn't focus on what I was doing. I had a really hard time focusing on what I was doing because I just didn't enjoy it anymore. I had nothing to wake up to that I was feeling good about. So there were just many factors involved in that. But as far as I'm not because I'm not an ADHD coach, I'm a career coach who works exclusively with people with ADHD. I was never and still am not an expert on ADHD. I just know that I am diagnosed with it and I have enough knowledge to know and be able to kind of tell when, you know, suspect when people have it as I'm sure you can, Adrian. You know, you kind of know, you have a sense. So I just know that For people like me, having experienced the downfall after loving what I was doing for so long and then going into that trap of being in the kind of work that I really didn't like anymore, and I created that trap, it was overwhelming. And, and, Shel, this leads us in well, actually, to your book, because we're talking about ADHD, and actually, I love what you said there about, look, think about what you're naturally attracted to if you have ADHD. You're going to be more engaged. It just makes a lot of sense. But it's amazing how many people get off track. They go, well, I want to work with computers because I'm going to make lots of money being an IT program. Right. Are you interested in that? Well, not at all. You're probably not going to be successful if you have ADHD and you do that. So help us understand some of the ways that you work with people and this nuanced relationship between ADHD and career development. Help us understand that. Yeah, well I have been, I was trained by Richard Bowles who wrote What Color is Your Parachute? and I was always attracted to that method because it was very, there was always a deep dive that one had to take and that's kind of what led me to doing the work I'm doing now. I did that for several years and then I realized when I started working with people with ADHD that there were so many additional pieces that need to be put in place that I started putting in place 15 years ago after my diagnosis, which led me to creating the actual book that breaks everything down step by step. I tried to make it as ADHD friendly as possible. I don't know if that answers your question. Well, it does. Give me some specifics, though. So if I'm sitting here and I think, I don't know what your statistics show, I mean, it could be up to 10% of the population that has ADHD, most people undiagnosed. And so if I'm sitting here, either I have ADHD, I'm thinking I might or somebody I care about. So give me some specifics then with career development. What do I look for? How do I, you know, pursue a career that's going to be rewarding to me? Well, right away, I would tell people that if you're not happy in your work, you're in the wrong job. So it takes the onus off of the individual and puts it on the fact that you just are in the wrong place. A lot of people feel like they just, they feel shut down and they start feeling deflated because they can't get the work done or they can't do it as well as somebody else, or they make mistakes, they get called on the carpet, very often are put in these PIP programs, right? Performance improvement programs. And so what I do is I have them break every, all the different aspects, all the different elements of what make up one's ideal work. And that's a very much of a deep dive, the way I do it. It's structured, and it allows them to really dig deep into what is it that they want? What are they really attracted to? For example, what skills do they want to be using? What people do they want to be working with? What are the working conditions, which are very big? A lot of the conditions are what are anxiety provoking, right? You're working in a certain culture, right? And the culture is not conducive to feeling less stress or whatever. And so identifying all that and getting clarity and detailed about it. And so part of this process is people have to really dig and answer in a very authentic way and honest way about what works for them and what doesn't work for them. And if they don't like something, if they just do it for the money, that will never work with ADHD. It will work maybe for a couple of years or a few years, but they're going to hit a wall at some point. Okay? So you have to be honest with yourself. That's the part that is very difficult. And because we're kind of, I hate to use the word, but I'm going to use it anyway. I think we're very propagandized as a culture into thinking about what are the kinds of things that you need to be successful in your work, and what kind of careers are going to be more successful than others, instead of doing this breaking down process where you're very clear about the things that you are literally attracted to that are going to be sustainable over the long haul. So if you don't take that and money cannot be a factor in the beginning, it just cannot. If you look at it in terms of money, if you answer questions that are raised, that I raise in the book and in the work that I do, inauthentically, like because you think you're going to, if I answer it this way, I'm not going to get a job that pays me enough or something like that. It's not going to work. You cannot rig the system. You cannot. So that is the part that is very often very difficult because you hear these voices, and we all know the voices, don't we, Adrian? We know the voices that are telling us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, mom and dad tell you, go be an engineer, go be a doctor, yeah, because you're good at math or you're good at science and you may be miserable in those jobs. Yeah, yeah, those influences, the friends, the peers, the family members, the spouse even, or the the partner or whatever, those people are impacted by your choice in some way. So that could with ADHD, that it's almost like you have to tune that out. You really do have to tune it out. So when I work with people, I put them what's called a career bubble, which means they aren't allowed to talk to anyone outside of the group that I'm working with. And that's four to six people, right? And they become the peers. And often people are relieved when they hear that. For eight weeks, I don't have to do this. And so it's the same with going through the book. If you go through the book, you have to do it without having these conversations with other people unless you're working with another person to go through it. So that's the difficult part. It's what Richard Bowles called the safekeeping self. That's a part of us that wants to keep us back in status quo position. You know, it always want, we always want to spring back there because of the influences that we've had in our lives. That's the hardest voice to tune out or voices. It's difficult. You talk about in your book, Shell, the five steps. I think you call it the five steps to self-accommodation in the workplace. Can you walk us through those five steps? I think you mentioned a couple as we were going through, but that would be a lot of specificity would be very helpful The part before that is really important. So yes when I say clarify your accommodation needs That means you do have to break down all the different aspects of what you need to feel comfortable and In your environment all that those are both the physical and the non-physical things like even the kind of desk you have I tell people get into it the kind of equipment you use what kind of laptop what kind of phone are all these things working for you headphones do you need headphones so all these little elements are very very important to identify and so those are the physical needs, even the cut, think of the colors that you're surrounded by the lighting, how many people are working under harsh fluorescent lights, and no windows, you know, in these in these buildings that are just insulated. Open seating can be a horrible thing for a person with ADHD, no privacy, and the noise levels and things like that, all those things really impact. So getting clarity on all of that is really, really important. And that's what like the whole first part of that planet, it's planet number three, it's called working conditions, right? So all of that has to be outlined. And how can they help you get very specific, what is important and what's not important and describe why that is. Give examples. You know, when under these conditions, I am able to or under these conditions, I feel calmer under these conditions, I can get more work done, I can focus on my my, my work, when I have these other things like bad lighting, lots of noise, no privacy, no ability to get up and walk around when I need to, somebody's monitoring my every move or checking my emails or whatever, if that's a factor, that can only increase the ADHD symptoms, right? So it's really important to get to understand yourself at a very deep level that way, and what is important and what is not. And when you have it all written down, you have a basis to kind of have a conversation and to understand if you're even in the right job, you know, if it's even possible to make any. And the right place to I love that. Yeah, is it the right culture? Is it the right fit? You're gonna have to be a little bit more picky. You know, if you are living with ADHD, that's okay to take care of yourself. That's what people need to understand. I'm sorry, I just want to add this one thing. Once you know all this, once you're kind of equipped with this knowledge, you have a basis for a conversation that other people don't, by the way, you are so much more empowered and become more confident. When you're really, like you said, being picky, you walk into an interview and you ask questions. So yeah, it versus just showing up the first day and you don't So, yeah. Go ahead. Versus just showing up the first day and you don't understand the culture, you don't understand what's expected, or how you're going to be working. It's fine nowadays to say, look, this is what I live with. I do great work. I'm going to be one of your best people, but this is the environment that I need. This is what I... And I find if I had this, I can do great work for you. I'm going to be loyal. Those types of things are really powerful. So, I love that. You said it. You said it. You took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you, Adrian. How can people learn more about your work, Shell? Where would you send them? CareerCoachingWithShell.com is when Passion to Career takes you to the same place. PassionTOCareer.com. And I do eight week and I use the book that we use the book, but it's a deeper dive because there's coaching involved and there's your community is built So there's a lot more than that that's involved in it. But those two things And the book is on Amazon right now And the book again is called unlock your career path, right? Unlock your career path. Yes Michelle Mendelson. That's awesome. Well, as we're getting near the end here, we're running out of time, but as somebody who lives with ADHD, give us some of your tactics that you found. These are the things that help me every day live my best life. So give us a couple of your specific practices. Well, I got to the point in my life, and I'm older, right? So I'm at the point in my life where it's like I do what I want to do. Like I work on my own for one thing. And a lot of people with ADHD basically end up doing that for good reason. Many of us don't like to take orders or, you know, I've lived on my my or worked lived on my own, worked on my own for so many years that I feel like I have my own place rigged the way I want it. So my office is the way I want it. Everything I have is basically how I work the best. So for example, I work from home, but I also work downstairs in my, I can work wherever I want. You know, I take my show on the road if I need to. I'm going to Europe, I'm gonna do it from Europe. You know, that's what works for me. I just need to be in whatever place I'm comfortable in. So I have to be comfortable. I like my surroundings to be comfortable. So my comfort level, I've been able to determine what that is, then I can do my best work, right? So I know I have all these things, I have done this process many times over. So it really helped me. And actually, it was written based on some of my the things that I discovered for myself as well. So, Shel, if you wanted our listeners to have like one or two big takeaways as we wrap up, what would those one or two things be? I would say, if you're not doing work that you really, really, truly enjoy, you need to find a way to discover how to develop the right path for yourself. And again, why I wrote the book, but if you're not happy in what you're doing, it's time to at least take a look. And to start asking questions. And to not blame yourself. It's not you. You're just in the wrong job. It's just the wrong fit. That's a big takeaway, I think. So yeah, and the other the other one is find ways to do what you enjoy. Really, get to know yourself at that level and be honest. Be honest. Honesty. Yeah. Good for you. Thank you so much, Shell. Our guest has been Shell Mendelson. As Adrienne mentioned, she's the author of Unlock Your Career Path, a course for ADHD adults and teens. Great tips and tricks. Thank you so much, Shell, for being on the show. It's been a delight to have you here today. It was great. Thank you very much. So, Adrian, ADHD, a topic we haven't spent much time on, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. So, what were some of your takeaways? Well, typically, I'm glad you were pushing at the beginning because when we think about ADHD, we think of somebody who's distracted all the time or can't focus. There's so many ways that ADHD is manifest in people. I like what Shell was saying. Look, if you're unhappy in your job, you just hate routine situations, something's driving you crazy, think about this. There may be something to this that maybe you do have ADHD. I like what she said. Look, for anybody with... Some people say 10% of the population. Think then what you're naturally attracted to because you're going to be better at that. You're going to be more engaged. That's a good place to start. Yeah, I appreciate the fact that you said look and take a deep dive. What is your desk like? You know, what's the environment? What about the lighting and you know on the East Coast here? One of the big factors in job satisfaction is how long is your commute? You know, how often do you have to be live in the office or virtual and so on. So getting down to that kind of detail I thought was really helpful. My biggest takeaway was, you know, as she summed it up in the end, look, if you're not happy in your job, find another job. Find out what really makes you happy. And that money cannot be the driving factor. If that's your only hygiene factor, that you just desperately need the money, you're going to be unhappy for a long time. Well, one thing they've found is people with ADHD overwhelmingly end up self-employed, as she is. And that's a huge part of the population that employers can't access. Because instead of maybe changing things up a little, asking, hey, if you are a little neurodivergent, how can we best work with you? And as you say, maybe it's, I wanna be in the office less. I need to have good lighting. I need a little privacy down there. Whatever it is, are there some little things we can do to make our workplaces a little bit more conducive to getting some great talent? Yeah, and the key to all of that is you've gotta be really brutally honest with yourself. You know, we tend to maybe skim over things or make excuses. Those voices you talked about, that influence us so much, you know be a doctor be a lawyer or be a failure Whatever those voices are telling you is is really important to see you've got to be brutally honest with yourself What is it that really, you know lights my fire that gets me excited to go to work? Yeah, and what is it that drains me and what do I need physically? What do I need? You know kind of mentally, culture-wise, et cetera, it's okay to let people know this is how I do my best work and to let yourself know. So I think that was good. If that's one big takeaway from this, is that makes everybody happier, but especially if you are, you know, have a, on the ADHD spectrum at all, you know, be more introspective, be more honest with yourself. Don't make money a factor because you're not going to be happy doing it. She's right, you'll burn out within a few years, you know pursue your passion So, yeah, really important and I'll tell you the one person in our lives It is never draining and is always encouraging and accelerating. I think we'd have to say as our producer Brent Clay I was gonna the Dalai Lama, but okay Brent Dalai Lama, it's kind of one and one a it really is Yeah, but and we'd like to thank him for taking our podcast and making it sound wonderful. Christy Lawrence, who of course finds these amazing guests for us and for all of you who listened in. You could be doing a lot of things and you gave us your time today, so we really appreciate that. If you like the podcast, please share it with friends and family. We'd also like to have you visit thecultureworks.com for some free resources to help you and your team and your team culture thrive. What else would you leave with people here? Well a couple of things first off Please pick up a copy of our book anxiety at work If you haven't it's going to help you and your team thrive and build resilience And we love speaking to audiences around the world virtually or in person on the topics of culture leadership teamwork Resilience all these wonderful things give us a call. We'd love to make your event. Just amazing wouldn't we just Absolutely, we've got an online course, Anxiety at Work, our books are on Amazon, digitally, audible, even on lit video books, which is a fun new platform. And of course, as you're stocking your bookshelf, don't forget, Unlock Your Career Path, a course for ADHD adults and teens by our new friend, Michelle Mendelson. It's been a delight to be with you, as always, Adrian, and I always give you the last word. Well, thanks everybody for joining us until next time we wish you the best of mental health.