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Ever wonder how deep, authentic friendships are formed and sustained? The type of friendships that enrich life, challenge your beliefs, encourage personal growth, and rekindle your faith in humanity? Join Brian and Austin as they interview six men who over three years journeyed from complete strangers to the closest friends - Phil Schank, Ray Sears, Larry Wilson, Wayne Hall, Richard Ridgway, and Jeff Stafford. They will discuss the group dynamics that have bound them together across racial lines and unravel the threads of our intricate bond, punctuated by thought-provoking, unpolished, and vulnerable conversations.
This episode was recorded at the 2023 Living Reconciled Celebration before a live audience and highlights the power of open, honest conversation in constructing relationships that sharpen and challenge us.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
Ever wonder how deep, authentic friendships are formed and sustained? The type of friendships that enrich life, challenge your beliefs, encourage personal growth, and rekindle your faith in humanity? Join Brian and Austin as they interview six men who over three years journeyed from complete strangers to the closest friends - Phil Schank, Ray Sears, Larry Wilson, Wayne Hall, Richard Ridgway, and Jeff Stafford. They will discuss the group dynamics that have bound them together across racial lines and unravel the threads of our intricate bond, punctuated by thought-provoking, unpolished, and vulnerable conversations.
This episode was recorded at the 2023 Living Reconciled Celebration before a live audience and highlights the power of open, honest conversation in constructing relationships that sharpen and challenge us.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled, episode 30. Brian Crawford, here, host of Living Reconciled, my really, really, really, really good, good, good, good friends, nettie Winters and Austin Hoyle. Well, nettie cannot join us.
Speaker 1:Miss Tommy is ill and we're going to make sure that we spend some time in prayer today for her, and Austin is somewhere doing Austin things Remember that it's but he will probably join us shortly. All right, but I have the great privilege of having on Living Reconciled today, six of my incredible, really, really good friends, and I want you, my good friends, to introduce yourselves and, by the way, those that are listening on this recording. What you may not know is that not only do I have my six friends on stage, but we have several people that are in a watching audience critiquing and judging us right now, and so, with that said, no pressure, guys, I want you to move from my right all the way around and introduce yourself to the audience.
Speaker 2:Phil Shank, Mount Bahia, Mississippi.
Speaker 3:Ray Sears from Oklahoma City.
Speaker 4:Larry Wilson from Terry Mississippi Wayne Hall.
Speaker 5:Florence, Mississippi. Richard Ridgway, Jackson, Mississippi.
Speaker 6:And Jeff Stafford Jackson Mississippi.
Speaker 1:Excellent, Excellent. Would you give them a round of applause again? I mentioned before the started the recording that this, that this group started gathering about three years ago, and although we many of us didn't know each other when we started gathering, we've become incredible friends. I'm interested in talking a little bit about the journey towards from strangers to friends, and so what I would like to do is I'd like to start with you, Phil. Could you tell us how this group got started? And probably even a better question why did this group get started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, my wife and I attend a life church out of Oklahoma City and she got involved with a small women's group. So I'm kind of a type A personality so I wasn't going to join a group. So I'm going to start a group. So I thought, well, I'll start a group. And then I thought, well, what do I want to do? And so I thought, why don't we take social issues and drive them through a spiritual lens? And so that's what it's called. And so it got published on Life Church's website.
Speaker 2:That's actually how Ray got involved and Dale and some others from the other parts of the United States, and I threw out a bunch of emails and I said this is what we're doing. This is when it is. One of the emails happened to go to Netty, and so then, as you know, Netty's got a pretty wide net, so he throws out an email, and that's kind of how it got started. And we weren't really sure exactly what we were going to start to process through. So we grabbed a book, one of John Perkins books in the very beginning, and then it led to another book, led to another book. It led from we did the Church and the Racial Divide, which is a six-week study and it took us 18 months to get through the six-week study. So when we talk about going deep and really processing, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate you giving us a good segue because I want to ask you Give us a peek anybody can jump in give us a peek into the group dynamics because there has to be some interesting group dynamics For a six-week study to last 18 months. So give the audience a peek into what does this group Typically look like what you know. How do we poke each other, how do we prod, how do we navigate through these types of discussions? You know help, help, help them understand what this group looks like on a Wednesday morning.
Speaker 7:If you're gonna be comfortable, you're gonna be very uncomfortable very fast and there's no filter on the the zoom call. You know a lot of people go to the upper room. We're in the upper zoom so it's like, yeah, preachers for you in there, but just very uncomfortable, with very a Safe place to become healthy in a very uncomfortable environment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is a safe place. They haven't asked me to leave yet, right? And so I keep coming back for two and a half years now and have some of the best friends you could imagine, and this was in a time when we were all COVID bound. Right April of 2021, I started coming because we weren't even going to a live Church service. We were watching that online and I saw this group and I email Phil. I said Phil, could I be part of that group? He says come on, you know, and the we studied the Questions at the end of the chapter and then you know one question. It would take us about three Wednesdays to cover one question, and so it just, and it usually went deep enough, but you felt safe enough once you got to know each other, you felt safe enough that you could explore Something deep round of applause for Austin Hoyle, who has just entered the building.
Speaker 5:I was. I was late, I wasn't able to tell how many goods you said. I feel like I've Failed in my responsibilities. I had to talk to the news.
Speaker 1:That's a understand, understand the news. The news is important. Austin was monitoring how many goods I said for netty and him, so I don't know how many, how many of you were counting, so you can share that with him later. Pertaining to pertaining to this idea of safety and brutal honesty you know, one of the things that that we talk about in Mission Mississippi, that I even talk about in my church, is that there's a couple of ground rules to having good, healthy dialogue around race. One is that vulnerable conversations Must exist, and if you're gonna have vulnerable conversations, that you have to allow for the lack of polish.
Speaker 1:Most of the time, people want to have conversations around race with polish, and so if something comes out wrong and everybody wants to bash the person who said it and kill the conversation, you, you can't get vulnerability and polish, you only choose one or the other right and so, and so what we've decided as a group is that we choose vulnerability Overpolish, and because we choose vulnerability over polish, there can be some outlandish things said on when these Wednesday morning, and we totally allow that to go right. Right, um, would you, would you agree with that? And and what? What have you learned about your own journey in relationships through that.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna. I want to back up just for a second, because when we started, do y'all remember when we did the hey, tell us about yourself, and how incredibly shallow it was. It was so bad, you know, like when we did our intros fill for mom by you. You know, it was basically like that Net. He said it was probably Year and a half or so into it. Again he said why don't we go back through and do this again? Oh, my word, it it literally. I think we'd get through like one person in an hour, you know, just Sharing. And we sat there and we went. Why didn't we do this in the first place? It was because we needed that space to be Created to where we could feel vulnerable enough to go ahead and really share and here's who I am and here's who you are and you know and then learning how to love one another. Through all of that it was. It was extremely powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go ahead yeah.
Speaker 6:Well said, she mentioned Unpolished, unvarnished, and since I'm the least polished elite, one is in the group. I Think the thing that I learned the most is that, as we're sharing, we're unguarded. We take the guard down. Many times when you come into a group like this, people want to put up what should be the answer, what should be the response.
Speaker 6:But we've come to a point now, through you know, pain and problem and dealing with the issues of the day and the challenges that are there, where we can just say this is what I actually feel, without it being judged, without you know, having anybody look at you and say why do you think that? Now, the person in the room that's going to look at everybody and say, well, why do you think that is the unpolished, unvarnished person? But see how they all look nice and polished and I got my workload. But we have honest, very transparent, very, very truthful and sometimes very painful conversations, but we feel safe enough that we can have that Conversation and still love each other at the same time. So the thing that I learned the most is that that Genuine is that that oneness that we have created is what's needed in the state of Mississippi.
Speaker 5:So I think the dynamic it's not working. Here I'll swap. I think the dynamic, though, that we got to some working occurred over time, and there's there's two things. One is, I think every man in the group is Theologically sounded in our fate right. Therefore there is a dear respect for one another and a and an immediate care for them, for each other. So you've got the levity to say what you want to say, but in time the fellowship strengthens into a love for one another. So I really don't care what Jeff says. I'm little, I really don't. I love the man and so therefore, when he says something that shocked my conscience, he's got one friend and he definitely has said some things as I could be.
Speaker 5:And there was my. I agree with Jeff and they'll go. You agree with Jeff, yeah, it is. You know, when you, when you, when you come to a relationship of loving another one, you care about what they say and you take it to heart in a different way. But he'll stir the pot, and there there's several of us that do. Nitty will stir the pot. Sometimes Nady drug me into it. Nady and I've been friends for 30 years or whatever. And he said you gotta join this thing. And I thought I ain't got time for another thing. But this is, this is a sweet richness in the week that I look forward to, because it's a brotherhood. And now we get on the phone and we laugh and cut up and we poke fun at each other, but it's deep. We know where we're going with this, trying to see what the Lord has for us in Strengthening the church and binding it together. And that's a word.
Speaker 1:I'm. I appreciate you guys talking about the, the, the amount of time it took To get to a place where our stories were honest, and I don't know how many you guys in the audience know. But it's not just a matter of you putting on a mask for the people that you engage regularly, but oftentimes you mask Yourself from yourself that there's a, there's a sense in which you don't even know that you're not being honest, and so you kind of tell these little surface level stories, not even realizing that there's a level of depth. And what happened oh, I don't know if you guys recall this, but what happened as we were telling these stories? Well, we all came to realize, or many of us came to realize, is that I've never, never shared this before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that I'm, that I'm going deeper than I've ever known before, and it took time, longevity, it took friendship, it took a sense of safety to draw some of these things out of me, where there's there's a sense of pain or there's a Story of hurt, or there's something here that I've never talked about before until I had the kind of freedom that love brought Right through this brother and so there, and so I would encourage you to even just think about the fact, think about the fact or think about the, the.
Speaker 1:Ask yourself, let me say it this way, ask yourself Do I have the kind of friendships not just even across dividing lines and racial lines but do I have the kind of friendships period that is drawing the things out of me that sometimes I withhold from myself? Do I have the kind of safety, do I have the kind of place of vulnerability where I can just really let it all out, because there is so much nourishment and so much healthiness in being able to have those kind of friendships and relationships that can draw that out of you? And so I appreciate that, brothers, in the sense that I feel like you have drawn things out of me that I've never even shared with other people, and so I really appreciate that, among the joys like that, could you share some of the joys that you've had as a result of this morning brotherhood?
Speaker 3:I could. I've got a little grandson. He's gonna be three pretty soon and he was born as a COVID baby. His mother got preeclampsia and when he was born he was one pound and so he went to the. Oh yeah, I gave up, could lose today.
Speaker 3:You can't tell right. So when you go into the NICU at one pound, there's not a real good chance that you come out. You know, and just the other day is my daughter took him in to see his new pediatrician and she's the doctor who admitted him to the NICU three years ago. She said to Katie do you remember me, dr Corey? Oh, my goodness, that was the worst night of my life because you told us that Cooper was not gonna survive. And so I've shared his progress with these guys from the time.
Speaker 3:You know he got out of the NICU after one year. Then he finally got the tracheostomy removed after another few months. And the prayers that they brought up and this isn't just for I mean, we share prayers amongst everyone my sorry problems our wives have had, our families have had. So that's the joy is that you know somebody says why does Cooper, why does he have cerebral palsy and why does he have these problems? And you know, I think the Bible says so the glory of God can be shown through him and you would not believe how many people you know are. The glory of God is shining.
Speaker 7:You know I would echo that what Ray was saying. You know, these guys really reflect on earth as it will be in heaven, by the simple fact that they, we may go, you know, several weeks in my case a couple of several months without being on the calls, and we still talk to each other. You know, like we've seen each other this afternoon, you know, like it's just yesterday, we saw each other and we've really established the fact that it's okay to look different and still serve Jesus together. And I've learned that from these men, that you know you look after each other, you take care of each other. You know, and that's the church.
Speaker 7:It doesn't, it's not like, hey, what's what denomination are you again, or what church do you attend. It's no, hey, bro, I got your back. You know. And it even comes down to, you know, just picking at each other about sports, golf. You know just anything. But it's more than just a Wednesday call. These are outside of the week, brothers, that the church models so well on Wednesday and Sunday but doesn't even connect outside. This is more of a family, the way it's, I believe, the way God intended it, and that's what I love about these men is. I can honestly say that the men on this stage truly have my back and I have theirs, so yeah, you talk about golf man.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm you know, we'll save the names, obviously, because that's not important. But just thinking about this group dynamic, you know there was a need that came out of this group where there was like, hey, you know, we got some kids that need some golf clubs and just put it in the chat, put it in the group hey, anybody, anybody having the old pair of golf clubs, and before you know it, yeah, in five minutes these kids' needs are met in that regard. And so there's a, there's a sense in which, yeah, this brotherhood is for us, but in this brotherhood, even other people are being served and being nourished. And so when you think about, when you think about what are you? You know what?
Speaker 1:Why? Why do I unify? What motivation do I have to actually connect with people across dividing lines and racialized? What motivation do I have? Yes, there's a sense in which you will be served and you will be richly blessed, but I don't want you to undermine the fact that there's a lot of times that just this union in and of itself is going to produce fruit for so many other people that have yet to be known and yet to be seen, and so, and so there's an incredible blessing and joy that other people will receive through that unity as well, and we can't miss that.
Speaker 2:Just on that and I'm not trying to steal anything from your keynote later. But it's one thing to get in the room together. Yeah, it's a completely different thing to share experiences and burdens of others. Does that make sense? And that's all I'm gonna say and I'll let you expound on that later. But that's what we're. You know we're. Yeah, we're in the same room together, or Zoom. But you know it was cool Two years ago. We go over to Richard's house, dale, who is that big, lanky white guy on the left there?
Speaker 1:That dude does not look that tall on Zoom. Let me just tell you that. It was shocking how tall that man was when I met him.
Speaker 2:Shocking, kind of forgot about how big he is, and that's Johnny Beeson next to him. Anyway, that's at Jeff's house. But we went to Richard's house on Friday night, so everybody's flying in from all over the United States to get together for dinner at Richard's house. And then on Saturday we did this men's conference over at Jeff's house. It was wonderful. It was the first time we had really ever met face to face. But how cool was that, you know?
Speaker 2:And then we come together and there's this brotherhood and we just keep going and keep going and keep processing, keep talking, keep sharing, keep carrying each other's burdens, everybody's experiences, praying for one another, that kind of thing. What's interesting now is it's almost difficult for people from the outside to then get into our group, because we get requests and then I'll tell people and this is one of the problems but I'll tell people what we're doing with our group and how we're addressing racial issues and so on. I had one guy out of Tulsa tell me well, I don't believe racism exists anymore and when you guys want to talk about Jesus and I actually got ahold of Brian, this was a year ago and I said, bro, I cannot contact this guy. This is not gonna go well if I contact him.
Speaker 5:I'm like people can be an angry white guy.
Speaker 2:I'm like you want to contact this dude and talk to him, because it will not go well if I do, because there's gonna be righteous anger that is gonna fly through that phone, especially with Tulsa, like do you not even know your history? You know like what? In anyway he's getting out of.
Speaker 1:He's getting wrapped up.
Speaker 2:He's firing right now. So, at any rate, I have very little patience for that type of stuff. But we're having a hard time getting. We get requests, you know. Hey, I want to join, I want to join, yeah, okay, and then we'll tell everybody what we're doing and they're like that was a fun call, thanks, yeah, yeah, oh, okay, well, thank you, I'll keep looking, you know, and it's like doesn't God care about reconciliation? I'm pretty sure it's biblical, like this was kind of a big thing on his heart, so shouldn't it be on ours? And why don't we spend more time talking about it in church and talking about it? You know, if the church was really to talk about it and address those things, we might be able to change something. You know, we talk about the church being the most powerful, you know, mechanism in the world, and so on.
Speaker 5:Well, the church is us, you know yeah so, but there's a dynamic to standing in our own shell. We know what we know, and how do I know how to interact with my wife? She sees the world differently than me and so, being married in a covenant vow with her, I have to listen to her tell me how lame I am at times and not understanding. It's the same dynamic with this. How am I gonna know Jeff's experiences, larry's experiences, brad's experiences, if I don't get into that fellowship where the honesty can occur? I long if I think I have all the understanding. So it is literally about learning the react, learning who we really are, to share each other's burdens. It's a deep thing, it's sweet.
Speaker 1:When this podcast goes live next week there'll be people listening like is that guy like in the audience talking? Because Richard is like in a competition to keep the mic as far away from him as he possibly can. He's like holding it out here.
Speaker 6:I'm sorry I had to rag you man, I was just thinking about it. That's a good presbytery.
Speaker 1:As a good presbyterian would. As a good presbyterian would. He's like it's so loud, it's so loud, You're busy so I keep it away. Oh man, yeah, we're good brothers, by the way. So there you go. Hey, I wanna open this up to the audience If you guys good with that. Yeah, wanna open this up to the audience if you guys don't mind. And anybody got any questions for this group?
Speaker 6:Before you ask a question, I want you to understand this dynamic. We meet on Zoom. For most of us, this is probably yeah, maybe six times we've seen each other in person and for some of us, it's the very first time we've ever seen each other in person. And we have shared everything Joy and pains and cries, children's issues, family issues, relational issues. We cover it all and that's having seen each other less than six times. There are people who live in homes For 20 years. That's good that have never shared as much as some of us have shared in this space. That is a testament to the power of Christ yes, it is. And racial reconciliation.
Speaker 4:I'm the new kid on the block. I came in in December. I believe I looked at a text message that Nady sent to me, but it was on the 27th of December. This is my first time seeing Jeff live, live we both live in Jackson.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and this is my first time ever seeing Ray live. I'm the new kid on the block and I just came in through Nady. Nady had someone from our ministry that put an application in and he called me about that person because I was given put on the application as a reference. And he hired the person and most of you know her, her name is Felicia and Shout out to Felicia Bowman yes, come on. And he called me back up after some time later and he said do you have another one like that in your church? I told him no, we do not. And so from that we start meeting.
Speaker 4:Nady and I start meeting together, having lunch on Tuesday. And then he told me about this group and he invited me to come. Now you gotta realize I'm retired minister, but I'm retired so I don't have to get up early in the morning. And when he told me six thirty in the morning, I'm going, oh my, that's going to be a challenge. But I grant you, I get up at six thirty on Tuesday, at six o'clock I get up. Then we have to set alarm clock. Because of what I get from this group, it's not a chore or a challenge for me to get up at six To get ready to go online to hook up with these guys.
Speaker 4:And you know, authenticity is the word that I was thinking as they was talking and that's what I see. When we get together, everybody's real. We don't talk about the nomination. The only time they talk about the nomination is when Nady is picking on Richard. You know that's the only time you hear any denomination mentioned and it's just a joke just to pick on him. But authenticity being real, you don't have to put on the air All everybody up here is theologian all of them, I mean but they don't come across like that.
Speaker 4:They are genuine, they are real people and we have real issues and we able to share that and build a relationship, because all those lines, those things are just not there and I appreciate every one of them and get it to know them and be like I said, the new kid on the block has been awesome. I remember one person that he invited to come on the group. I don't know what they was expecting, but it was so deep for him that day. It's so real, so authentic. That person never showed back up and that's where some people are. They want to be on the surface, they don't want to get deep. We are kind to them though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6:And so the new rule is that whenever a person comes in, jeff cannot speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we keep Jeff quiet, we keep Jeff quiet. But what you guys are highlighting is a very, very important point. Right, it's on. You know, we all have to take a journey into the pool, right? And so when you have a group that's already swimming in 10 feet deep, it becomes incredibly hard to bring someone in from the shallow waters that fans. And so one of the things that we want to encourage is that there needs to kind of be this cycle of now you go and do likewise, right, that's good, you know. So, like we've cultivated what we've cultivated, you know, and so our hope and dream is that all of us, in some shape, form and fashion, we go and do likewise and produce this again. Because it's hard Like we've talked about it over and over again it's hard to just say, hey, guys, just jump into this, because there's been so much blood, sweat, equity that has been poured into this yeah, that has become it becomes incredibly difficult to just start fresh and jump into it like this. So, so that's one of the things that we don't want to miss, because there is such a blessing that comes in the journey that we've had, right, and and sometimes you miss you, you don't want. You don't want people to miss that journey. So before I jump into another question, I do want to pause and make sure that we didn't have any from the audience.
Speaker 1:Living reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 645 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and the focus time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at MissionMississippiorg and click on the events button or call us at 601-353-6477.
Speaker 8:So you were talking a minute ago, excuse me, a minute ago, saying that some basically I'm paraphrasing sometimes we're ignorant, right. We don't realize we're lying to ourselves. So maybe there's some type of just ignorance there, right? So when you all are in this group and you have one of your brothers that are, that's being that person, like they don't realize that there's a lie or maybe it's something, a racial issue that you just don't realize is there. So how do y'all deal with, like, if it's me and I don't realize this theory, I'm kind of you.
Speaker 8:Probably your first step is maybe to be a little defensive of that. No, whatever. How do y'all deal with that confrontation? Or I know you said that we're going to keep it real and we're going to love one another, but I know it's not as easy as that's what you're saying right there. So how are y'all able to do that and not have offense? How are you able to do that? And, I guess, to not diminish what is going on, but to really to talk through it and it not escalate into something more.
Speaker 1:You've offered an incredible segue, because one of the questions I was going to ask, after we sent the mic to the audience and it came back, was what is one of the more challenging moments that we've experienced, and I think that's going to draw that out, and so you guys don't mind talk a little bit about some of the challenges that we've experienced in conversation.
Speaker 3:I mean, I've had that because I'm the Yankee who came and married an Oklahoma girl, you know, came from Boston and ended up in Oklahoma and so it's a whole new world. And I think, well, I'm the virtuous Yankee because we didn't have racial problems in Boston and Cape Cod. And then I come to find out veterans who were black, who got out of the military, couldn't use their VA benefits to buy a house or go to school. I didn't know that. And then I find out that, you know, on Cape Cod, which is a little hamlet, well, no one would own a slave there, right? There would be no enslaved people. There were Native Americans who were enslaved and there were blacks who were enslaved. You think, oh, I'm from this virtuous part of the country. And you find, well, actually, when you dig in, not so much, and it's still, we're still digging it up today, we're still finding out today.
Speaker 3:So what I did, what I would do, is you can't always solve it when all six of us are online. So I've got everybody's phone number. In fact, the other day I'm so privileged and honored that I could dial up a guy who's the president of Mission Mississippi and he would answer my call on like the second ring, and he would say hey, brother Ray, what do you need? You know. And I said, well, I just need to know where to be when you know. And so you know, that's a privilege. But so I think I've talked to nearly everybody Jeff and I know Tannetti and to Johnny Beeson one on one, because if you couldn't figure it out in the group, you can figure it out and say I didn't, you know what happened, and so you can do it one on one. So you need that, you need everybody's number.
Speaker 1:I think you've introduced a very important point to that Ray has kind of spoke to in terms of, you know, dialing down the number of people engaged in the conversation. There's also this reality that if we engage in relationships with the assumption that we, after rigorous debate, will all come to agreement that we are going to be very sad and very angry, we enter into the most of these discussions realizing that, yeah, we probably will walk away from this one and all of us are not going to agree on this, but that is totally okay. You know, one of the things, one of the things that we try to drive home here, is that agreement is not always the goal. Understanding, empathy and love is, and so, if you don't roll into agreement, by staying at the table with ears and heart open, you will at least grow in your understanding and your empathy and your love. And so we have all kinds of conversations around, all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 1:Politics is on the table, you know, economics are on the table, health disparities on the table, anything's on the table. And we, when we put it on the table, we're not putting it on the table to win an argument, we're putting it on the table to help. You see my side, to help me see my vantage point, to put you on my side of the street so you can get a different perspective, in hopes that it will not if even if it doesn't give you agreement with me, it will at least increase your empathy and your understanding of me, would you say. Would you say that that to be the case?
Speaker 6:Yeah, there's often disagree.
Speaker 1:You put a lot of emphasis on that oftenness.
Speaker 6:What I envision in my heart is that, wow, two of us maybe, or two of them, let's say two of them are going back and forth. The others of us are gaining perspective and greatly pray. It's real. There's been times when me and Johnny whoop it's not here then, and so I won't be a American Right. Yeah, absolutely. We walk through some of the same troubles, but we see the solutions and the outcomes different. There've been times when me and Richard, we've had things where we've had to say, well, you know, that's the way I see it, I get it and I don't have to agree with you. To look, stop saying that. What I have to do is appreciate you. That's it. We don't always have to agree and we bring everything to the table If it happened in the new and it had some level of racial tinge to it. It's a conversation. It's coming to wins the morn. Some of us wake up ready for wins the morn. I'm not saying any particular names.
Speaker 1:On those morners. Jeff has his camera on, his teeth have been brushed and he's washed his face, greased his scalp. He's ready to go, man, he's ready to go? Tell. We're wrapping up here and I'll give this question and then I'll give one more question to the audience. But we've been doing this for three years. That requires an incredible amount of resilience to just stick with it for three years. Share some of the things in which you feel like have been keys to actually us just being friends and for three years, and coming to the table every week, fully engaged, ready to lock arms and pray together, study together, grow together, challenge each other. Well, give me some of the keys as to how we've been able to hold this.
Speaker 7:Well, I know, for me like having some time as being out, it's kind of like going to the gym.
Speaker 7:It's the days you don't want to go as the day you need to be there, and that, for me, has been so crucial. To go back to your question, sometimes you just have to know you're gonna have to be vulnerable and it's gonna take time and sometimes, when you're vulnerable, you're gonna get offended because it's like healing we're good at putting mandates on things, but when you expose it and let it get air and heal, you're thinking, well, maybe the scar won't be as bad. But I think it's just being willing to be vulnerable in the moment, knowing that, yeah, we're not gonna win this in a day, but it's gonna take time and it's gonna take effort. And if I continue to come to the table, even when I don't wanna be there at 6.30 in the morning brother Larry, I feel you on that with three kids and a wife that's in school, it's just like one more time, okay, but I'll just turn the zoom on and take my video off, you know, but we've all done it, but it's just choosing to go when you don't wanna be there.
Speaker 4:I'm, by nature, non-confrontational and when I start meeting with native winners when I first met Nettie, I said I don't know if I like that guy, but what happened? When he introduced himself to me and we start meeting, I got to know Nettie and something doffer that always said stay at the table. And I stayed at the table with Nettie. I found out Nettie's a great guy. I saw the other side of Nettie. I saw its vulnerability in our relationship just two of us meeting. And so when he introduced me to this group me being confrontational I watched Jeff and Jeff is that guy. He gonna let you know. And he's confrontational. And I said I asked Nettie about him, so we've been vulnerable to be right here before you now and he didn't really give me an answer and I'm so glad he didn't. He didn't let me hear what his opinion of Jeff was. He let me formulate my own opinion and what I discovered about Jeff.
Speaker 4:I need a Jeff in my life. Jeff is that guy. He gonna know what he's talking about when he talks. He's gonna captivate your attention. He has done his research.
Speaker 4:I know things about African American people, but I didn't know it till I met Jeff. We're African American, I'm African American. So I need Jeff, you know, and I have learned to appreciate him because he brings it from another view, another side. Sometime I look at it one way and Jeff calls me to look at it another way, and we need that. And then I need my brother here to show me a different angle.
Speaker 4:He said some one day he still don't know what that is and I'm not gonna tell you, but he said something that he was going to do. I'm gonna go like really, but that's who he is and we don't judge each other like that. And Richard just brings something unique to the table. He's, he a theologian, he just he don't know that, but he is and he has a way of bringing God's words into it. So everybody at this table here has something to offer to help me to grow, develop, become the man of God that God has created me to be. And I'm grateful because I need the iron sharper, and iron and only way it's gonna be. So sparks when that happened, and sometimes there's sparks in this group, but we'll never get sharper unless those sparks happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, before before you go, let me just give you it. This is kind of how a morning can go. Sometimes we're having this great discussion and so on, and when school's in session, jeff is getting ready, he's getting his kids ready, he's listening, he'll throw something in the, in the, in the little chat thing or whatever, and oftentimes it's so provoking what he sends in the chat, I'm like, well, we need to get, and then Nettie'll see it and he'll go Jeff, you're gonna need to unpack that, you need to get on this thing and you need to. You know this, that and everything else. So we'll get to about, get to about seven, about seven or five. Jeff's in the car and he's going about seven, 15, seven, 20. We think we're about to wind it down and Jeff will go.
Speaker 2:Well, let me, let me chime in just for a second. I, I kind of see this a different way, yep, and, and so we just and we just. But to what? What Pastor Larry's saying? Perspective, perspective. And all of a sudden you sit there and you go and think about that and think of it that way. Why didn't I think of it that way? Is that something like you were maybe alluding to? Is that something inside of me that go on. Am I just blind?
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, or did I just never think of it? Think of it that way, you know. So it's rich, it's rich, it's super rich. Go ahead.
Speaker 6:When we first got started probably about six, seven weeks in, I think I called Brian. I said, brian, I got about two more weeks in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, even about two more week. When we started, much of the conversation was me, brian, Nettie and Johnny going back and forth at one another, trying to tell the African-American story to a group of white guys who were just laughing at us or listening to us or trying to love us.
Speaker 6:But there was a tension Because I knew that, admit that they had something to say, but they did not know how what they were going to say would be received. And I said I cannot do that. If we are going to be what we are saying we're going to be, we're going to have to come and be. I sharpening eye. Not only do you have sparks, you have milked and we needed to melt. And it went for a week and then I said we'll give them another week, then the next week. Providence of God. I pressed Baterian bro. I simply raised the question and they began to speak and that's how I knew that God had put this together and it was God's providence and we were able to go from there.
Speaker 5:A thing within the church.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you can go out.
Speaker 5:Some of you still enjoy. There's a fear I've got in the church that people sit down with their faith and they say I'm safe, thank you for Jesus, and they leave it there and they do not remember that. First, this what he says the will of God is your sanctification. This is a sanctifying yes. Yes, it's a grace to be more like Christ and it teaches us how to love someone. That's not what it needs Sweet.
Speaker 1:It's sweet One of the keys here that you guys I hope you've heard it as you've listened to these gentlemen One of the keys to our discussions. We mentioned that vulnerable conversation has to be on polish. You got to choose one or the other. So vulnerable conversation is the quickest way to gain ground. That's how you gain ground, that's how you establish friendship. That's why Jeff is like, hey, man, I'm giving the two more weeks and I'm out right. Because he's like, hey, I don't have time and we're not going to get anywhere. I don't have time to just kind of be pontificating in a room. And so gaining ground was part of that drive and that motivation and vulnerability from all parties is how you get there. So vulnerable conversation is the quickest way to gain ground, but harsh conversation is the quickest way to lose it.
Speaker 1:We are incredibly vulnerable in this circle. We are never harsh to one another. You have to understand, and when you talk, there are things that can easily rouse your anger, right, but mismanage anger is what leads to harshness towards one another. What we understand is passion in our discussion. There you go. So when something riles us up, it's not because any of these individuals here are evil. It's because I'm passionate about the conversation that we're having, and so I'm going to lean in and I'm going to manage and steward my anger in a healthy way towards making sure I articulate passion in the conversation and not allow it to lead to harshness, because harshness will destroy anything that you're trying to build.
Speaker 1:As it relates to cultivating these relationships across dividing lines, the reason why our culture is so chaotic right now in trying to cultivate these relationships is because we're having edible propensity towards harshness. We just like to have conversations in the harshest way possible. We potshot each other in social media. You know all of our commentary leans towards harshness, and it's the quickest way to destroy ground. You never get to understanding that way, and so this group has been able to maintain through the long you know for the long call, through all of the challenges, because we are incredibly vulnerable. We are not harsh to one another. We are not harsh to one another. It is 404 and you guys have breakouts to attend, and so let me ask you if you don't mind giving my good friends a round of applause. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured. Please visit us online at MissionMississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.