We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
Ever wonder how a philosopher, lawyer, and devout Christian grapples with reconciliation? Enter our special guest, Dean John Anderson, the Dean of the School of Law at Mississippi College, who opens up about his journey from his California upbringing to his philosophical and legal education, and his eventual embrace of faith in Jesus Christ. His unique perspective as a philosopher and lawyer fused with his deep faith makes for an engaging conversation on living a life that embodies reconciliation and grace across racial lines.
Dean Anderson also highlights the slow cook nature of building relationships, the power of the Spirit in building those relationships, and his concern over our inability in this historical moment to engage in the gracious and humble dialogue around race that is necessary to build these relationships.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
Ever wonder how a philosopher, lawyer, and devout Christian grapples with reconciliation? Enter our special guest, Dean John Anderson, the Dean of the School of Law at Mississippi College, who opens up about his journey from his California upbringing to his philosophical and legal education, and his eventual embrace of faith in Jesus Christ. His unique perspective as a philosopher and lawyer fused with his deep faith makes for an engaging conversation on living a life that embodies reconciliation and grace across racial lines.
Dean Anderson also highlights the slow cook nature of building relationships, the power of the Spirit in building those relationships, and his concern over our inability in this historical moment to engage in the gracious and humble dialogue around race that is necessary to build these relationships.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled, episode 32. I am your host, Brian Crawford, president of Mission Mississippi, and I couldn't be more excited today because I have my really really good friends back. My really really really good friends are back, Not just Austin Hoyle, which I'm happy about, Austin, but we got Nettie Winners back in the house, the man himself, the man, the myth and the legend.
Speaker 2:You know what? Also one thing else. What's that? We're back somewhere, too. We're back somewhere. We're back somewhere that we have not been for quite some time. Absolutely, we are all together.
Speaker 1:All together in a podcast room with the man myth legend Nettie Winners.
Speaker 3:Nettie, how are you doing? I am wonderful.
Speaker 1:You can't just stop with that. How are you doing?
Speaker 3:Man, I promise to behave. You know you're tested. You know I was reading this passage of scripture this morning about temptation and it says no temptation has overtaken you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, overtaken Absolutely.
Speaker 3:And I thought to myself for the first time temptation is after me, and today is in the fall of Brian Crawford right.
Speaker 1:We're not going to tip you to misbehave, mr Winners, we are just so excited to have you back.
Speaker 3:I'm excited to be back. I miss being here. I miss being a part of the. I really miss the podcast when we did the 30th podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was part of the celebration. I really wanted to be a part of that, but you know things didn't work out that way. But I'm excited to listen to it and you guys did a great job of that and all I've heard about people across the state say how do we do that? I told them. I told them call Nettie.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. If you need to go back and listen to that 30th episode, please do. It was in, it was incredible, it was enriching, but we have even what we believe will be an even better episode today. 30 second episode with a special guest, special guest, very special, yes, dean John Anderson.
Speaker 3:All the way from California. Man, At some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Virginia.
Speaker 1:At some point.
Speaker 2:Another point.
Speaker 1:I'm Dean John Anderson is the Dean of the School of Law of Mississippi at Mississippi College here in Jackson, mississippi. Dean Anderson actually has a lot of philosophy degrees bachelor's, master's as well as PhD in philosophy but somewhere along the line he's decided to actually go and pursue law, and so he has his law degree at the University of Virginia School of Law, and we will get a chance to hear a lot about that as well in just a moment. Let me give a quick shout out to our sponsors. Again, as always, thank you for what you do, because it's what, it's because of what you do that we're able to do what we do. Nissan Atmos Energy, regents Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, christian Life Church, ms Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward and Ms Ann Winters. Again, we want to welcome Dean John Anderson. So how are you doing, dean?
Speaker 3:John Anderson man. You know we get the opportunity to just today to not only get what the law says, but we can get his opinion too.
Speaker 2:Because he's a philosopher, so he's prepared to get his opinion and the law Absolutely.
Speaker 3:That's right man, that's important.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:That's unique. You rarely find that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:They have an opinion but they don't have one. I'm doing fantastic. I couldn't be more pleased to be here with all of you, my good friends, and you know my good friends, that's right. I can just sit right here next to Nettie. It's been a wonderful mentor to me over the years and I'm just so grateful for Mission Mississippi and for all of you and for this opportunity. All sets it down in chat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and we're excited that you get a chance to join us. You're an incredibly busy man, so the fact that you've taken the opportunity to spend a few minutes with us means everything, so we're incredibly grateful for you doing that. Why don't you take a couple of minutes and just share your elevator version of who is Dean John Anderson? Tell us a little bit about your family. Tell us a little bit about how you came to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4:Okay, Well, I so. I grew up in California, Central Coast, small town called Lompoc. If you think of California as an arm with an elbow, it's a tip of that elbow. So between San Francisco and LA is more of an agricultural town. I grew up in the Episcopal church, but I kind of laugh and say we were Christiors, we're Christmas and Easter, we would go to church, and you know so. I always thought of myself as a Christian kind of, but always in the back of my mind it was not. It was not a lived experience, but Jesus talked to me. I prayed when times were hard right.
Speaker 4:And forgot about faith. Really, you know when times were easy and so grew up in Lompoc and stayed there. Through high school went to UC Berkeley. Did a little detour with the US Marine Corps oh, wow, right after.
Speaker 1:That's what we call those detours.
Speaker 4:Detours.
Speaker 1:Yeah so.
Speaker 4:I was in the Marine Corps Reserve.
Speaker 2:Wow, wow.
Speaker 4:And we went to UC Berkeley, got my BA in philosophy, loved that. In fact, I was planning to go to law school right after my BA, but I got so into philosophy I decided I wanted to get a PhD in it, so applied to PhD programs, got an opportunity at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, finished a PhD, went to law school, became a practicing attorney and in my faith journey again, I just felt like, looking back, this was all kind of a space in which I consider myself at times agnostic, at times Christian, but not really understanding what that was, and so really I credit my wife and Mississippi in kind of really getting me in my faith work where I am today. So my wife I met in DC and she was going to church every Sunday and at a Methodist church and he makes it sound like.
Speaker 3:Averson yeah, well, well.
Speaker 1:Long emphasis on Averson.
Speaker 2:He was saved by the Methodist.
Speaker 4:I'm telling you in Washington DC that I mean people would say you got a church. I mean that just, it just was not cultural.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:You know common, you know most of my Sundays were usually at the office.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:And so I just started going and I was like oh, where has this been?
Speaker 4:Like just this piece, you know this piece that I just did not. But it was still just kind of a feeling of sense and just kind of a yearning and a wanting to learn, but so many of my habits and dispositions weren't changing. It was just that I just looked forward to that Sunday experience and it wasn't until we got here to Mississippi. I had my you know, my children, and we started going to church and I started. God just started calling me to read the Bible and I read it from to back and it just clicked to me. Austin and I were talking about this a little bit earlier.
Speaker 4:As a philosopher, I'm always looking for arguments and part of my problem with faith was that I didn't feel like he was giving me an airtight argument, and what I had missed and what I failed to understand is that God doesn't give you an airtight argument.
Speaker 4:He gave us the father, gave us an airtight person and his son, and it's that relationship that had been missing. So that was what had been the obstacle for me, and once I learned to live the relationship out with the son, talk to him every day like a person and not some abstract, that's when it all started, and the rest has just been a wonderful, wonderful journey that I just feel every day. I just I'm so grateful, so grateful, and I do. I credit Mississippi because I feel like this. This culture and the friendships and relationships and the mentors that I had in my faith walk here in Mississippi really got me to where I am today and as a saved person, as born again, and I really do feel born again. My wife would tell you I am born again. I am not the person she first met. I'm not, and she would say, for the better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just want to know, as a philosopher, you looking for an argument? I just want to know who wins the argument the lawyer, the philosopher?
Speaker 2:Well according to the philosopher the philosopher.
Speaker 3:according to the lawyer, the judge Right, right right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love what you said no, I like that one. I was just like I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1:I love what you said, dean Anderson, about this idea that there is no such thing as an airtight argument. There's just the airtight person Jesus.
Speaker 4:And that's so profound to me Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean airtight arguments don't require faith, do they? You know, and so in much, in much regard, there is a faith walk that's involved in this and that's when we actually come in contact with the person of Jesus Christ. So that's really incredible. I've only known you for the time that I've been on board in Mission Mississippi, but since I've known you, you've shown yourself to be an incredibly ferocious advocate for racial healing, for reconciliation in general.
Speaker 4:Amen.
Speaker 1:And so I'm curious as to how did that journey get started for you?
Speaker 4:OK, Well, I think I came to Mission or to Mississippi, like a lot of people from outside of the state, with a lot of preconceptions about race relations in the state. Of course, I don't think anyone here in this room would say that Mississippi has no race problem at all. We do, but so does everywhere else, and people do a good job of ignoring it in other places. But what I did discover right away when I came to Mississippi was that people talk about it more openly and willingly because they recognize it as an issue, and so that, to me, was refreshing. I also came kind of with the expectation that I would know more about these issues than the people in Mississippi, and I soon discovered no, no, what I read about in books, they lived right, and it was really eye-opening for me to realize that. No, I was going to be the student here.
Speaker 4:The professor coming to teach at MC Law was going to be the student about a lot of these issues with people who had lived it and who had been lawyers in the courtroom for some of these civil rights cases and leaders in the civil rights movement, and that was kind of a.
Speaker 4:So I came, of course, having a heart for racial reconciliation, wanting a better world for my children, for my family and for our country. But I feel like I just learned so much when I got here and it just kind of amplified that interest. And I think it was my second year at MC Law that Nettie came to speak to the faculty and that was really one of those kind of pivotal moments for me because I was in this new faith walk that I just described, right where I was really discovering for the first time, when it meant to be a Christian, that relationship. And then I hear Nettie come speak to our faculty about this new way of approaching racial reconciliation, not necessarily top down through the courts, but one relationship at a time, right, and which, by the way, Nettie, I've kind of stolen for law school because now I say we offer a legal education one relationship at a time. So I hope I don't get into any issues, no trouble, just generous donations to Mississippi and that'll solve it all, we can settle out of court.
Speaker 3:We can settle out of courts. We want to talk to the philosophy but not to lawyer.
Speaker 4:But every time you hear that just it's a credit to this organization, because that's kind of where I got that understanding of how change really happens.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, authentic. Let's take a quick pause and we're going to come back and I would love for you to continue on that line, dean Anderson, if you don't mind. But let's take a quick pause and we will come right back with Dean John Anderson, dean of the School of Law at Mississippi College, here on Living Reconciled.
Speaker 1:Living Reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6.45 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at missionmississipiorg and click on the events button or call us at 601-353-6477. Hey, thanks again for joining us on episode 32 of Living Reconciled. I am your host, brian Crawford, and I am overjoyed because our, our gang is back back together again. The band is back together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it feels like the return of the Temptations. We're back on tour, the Beatles back on to her cool in the game.
Speaker 1:We're all back in the same room Austin Hoyle, neti winners, and we are with Dean John Anderson, dean of the school of law at Mississippi College here in Jackson. And Dean Anderson, you were navigating through your own journey and own story with reconciliation. You talked about how you were going to Be sharing your riches with Mississippi, with Mission Mississippi, because of your stealing of the line, one relationship at a time. Well, but in addition to that, please go on and finish your thought that you have another side to break and that you know.
Speaker 4:So I was just saying that that when neti came to speak at the law school to the faculty, I Was kind of on the my journey in my, in my faith, and really just kind of rediscovering it, or Discovering for the first time where it really meant to be a Christian, that relationship, personal relationship with Jesus, and then they should. Neti comes and talks about racial reconciliation, one relationship at a time, and to me it was really mind-blowing and I was like, and you told the story about, you were Kind of that, that pivotal moment and I don't know if you could share that story again when you you were on, you were at an event and you saw two pivotal leaders Embrace yes, that's Tom Skinner and Pat Morley was here pre-mose here in north Jackson, sharing their story about how much they loved each other, how much they care for each other.
Speaker 3:Talked about their relationship and that's what got my attention relationship when Tom leaves Harlem, new York and go to Orlando, florida. Spent time with Pat Hipping with his business and and when Tom was having challenges with his marriage and family, pat goes to New York and man just get that picture, man. Oh, atlanta, florida and Harlem, new York, but that's all and and. When they embraced each other it was like man, I don't know when the last time I did that with a black man, I don't know white man.
Speaker 3:So that just really hooked me in the sense of understanding they come Rotary, the love In Mississippi. That was a novelty thing to see that happen for me.
Speaker 4:So yeah, that was a pivotal moment for me and it, it just resonated and it hit me right where I was at and, and so I think it was the next week I called you up, I reached out to, to netty, and just said how can I get involved?
Speaker 4:And from then on, you know we, you know I've been that eat netty and I just started going to lunch together once a week or every other week and and having conversations, and then we started bringing students into it and the rest is history. And again I've just been very grateful for Mission Mississippi and and for the ability to kind of get involved, because I just think that that message right, that that that that racial reconciliation happens one relationship at a time and right, it is an expectation for all of us in the body of Christ, that that we one love one another, its brothers and sisters, just the convergence of those messages, which is what mission Mississippi is all about. Right, that that is the perfect way to to solve this problem, because it's got to me and, brian, you and I have talked about this right, you know it's not always the.
Speaker 4:You know you've got to be able for people to fully appreciate this. You know they have to be at a certain point in their, in their faith way. But for those of us who are, were born in Christ, we know that if the Holy Spirit moves in this situation, the problems resolved. And so when the Holy Spirit decides to move in people and they seek it is the problem is going to be resolved. And so we're just prayerful that. You know, sometimes it'll happen, individuals at a time, groups at a time. But we all look forward to the day, like Martin Luther King right, when that dream is realized.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's just happening universally. Absolutely, Absolutely, you know.
Speaker 3:You know, when you talk about this, one relationship at a time ought to be clear with folks you know.
Speaker 1:We have. We have discussion about one relationship at a time this morning.
Speaker 3:Absolutely yeah, you know people think about there's one person Building one relationship at a time, which would be, yeah, a take a long time, but we're talking about every person building a relationship, and if every person built a relationship with every person and that keep duplicating itself, then it's not too little, too late, as somebody has put it. So you know, this is not one person running around in the state trying to build a relationship. One person at a time, one relationship at a time Jesus did that and I don't understand how people miss that.
Speaker 3:Is that the woman at the whale. That was one person one relationship. And so we see that those things happen, but we don't see it in a sense. So I just want to make sure that we're clear that we're not about one person running around in the state building a relationship with one another.
Speaker 2:We're talking about every person I mean in looking at that with the woman on the well example that you had. What she did. She went back to her town and because of that Jesus built a relationship with everyone in the city and you know in Jesus' city.
Speaker 3:Spent a weekend man Hung out with him for the weekend no man hung out, had some good barbecue, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But then Jesus also sent out all the disciples, you know, even while he was alive. And then when Jesus died and was ascended 40 days, or risen and was ascended 40 days later, he then started, you know, the Holy Spirit then came and started the church. So it's just like so it was just like, even though it began with one person, we go. Even though it started that way, it moved out to that relationship.
Speaker 3:Multiplying effect. Multiplying effect Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So, while, yes, one relationship was happening, one where, like, there were several relationships happening through this, like this network of relationship building, absolutely it was just beautiful.
Speaker 1:That's how the gospel Every person, cultivating one relationship at a time.
Speaker 4:It goes viral. Yeah, yeah, yeah, nowadays it goes viral, it's just wild to think about it.
Speaker 2:It's so biblical too.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. But you know, when you think about it in a negative way, I guess you could look at it like this. You know, it only took one person to mess this thing up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course you would think about it.
Speaker 1:Of course you would think about it, but also it took one person to straighten it out. That's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 3:So Adam and Eve, just you know, they just mess the thing up.
Speaker 1:You say Adam and Eve approach this one relationship at a time. That's right. Look what happened In other words also, that's the inspirative full field work.
Speaker 3:We can do it in a negative term, but let's just think about it in positive terms of what would happen. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:No, that's a good point though. That's a good point, though One person's toxicity or one person's lack of relationship with the Lord can lead to a breakdown of multiple people.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 4:Having a relational breakdown?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Especially if that person is influential. Well, I've seen.
Speaker 3:Why don't you take John, for instance? He talked about Dean.
Speaker 2:John absolutely.
Speaker 3:He talked about his relationship with his wife.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 3:Going to church.
Speaker 1:Every Sunday.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. This is not to know him Absolutely. But look what happened Over time. That relationship changed him and his entire family. He's talking about generational thing, about what he don't want his family to experience Because of his relationship now with Jesus Christ. That affects his whole plan.
Speaker 2:Exactly so I mean also think about what he's doing. I mean, can you think of any other sector in society that needs that relationship building more than the legal community? Absolutely, I mean Making it. Making it. I didn't say that, you said that.
Speaker 1:Well, I affirmed it Absolutely, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then we felt shame in our hearts for you, for saying it and affirming it.
Speaker 1:We love all of our lawyers.
Speaker 3:No, of course. I'm just glad they didn't say, can you be a lawyer and a Christian? I just glad they oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:My father-in-law's a lawyer Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I love him. I have dear family members and friends who are lawyers and dear church members, and we love them. We love them.
Speaker 4:I should emphasize that we are a Christian law school. We have a faith-based mission. We are leaning into that and as part of that, we're grateful for our partnership with Mission Mississippi, who is now speaking to this kind of can you know, can this relationship-building ability to build relationships? It's almost become, it's a skill.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:Brian, I'd love to hear you say something about this, about what you're doing at our law school, because you know and Natty and Austin helped us with this last year but we've started to where every single student in our law school anyone who graduates from MC law will have had a session with Mission Mississippi twice before they graduate. On building skills developing skills to build relationships and discourse across divides.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, we call it, yeah, dean, we call it Cultivating Healthy Relationships Across Dividing Lines.
Speaker 1:It's a four-part paradigm shift, and the paradigm shift that we highlight during that time is from hearing, the listening which is moving from the passive mode of words, kind of coming through my earhole and then out the other side and actually being curious about those that I'm engaging with in such a way where my whole body is engaged in the listening effort.
Speaker 1:We talk about the ideal of moving from arrogance to humility, which is this notion that because Arrogance to humility, arrogance to humility, we all have value, we all are creating the image and likeness of God and thus we all deserve to be heard. We talk about moving from apathy to empathy, where there is no very little regard, I guess I'll say, for the other, and there's a heightened regard for me and my and mine. And how do we shift from that? And then we talk about, lastly, moving from moral force to moral persuasion, whereas this and moving away from this. Okay, here's my idea, here's the way I see the world and understand the world. So I'm gonna force netty winners to accept my ideal and my understanding of the way I see the world, versus no, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1:We in the argument man, we in the argument Absolutely at all costs Crush my opponent right and moving from that to more of a persuasive way to address and to approach people. So, yeah, we are excited about the opportunity to spend time with the Mississippi College School of Law and, of course, with that said, we'll make the plug and make sure that you all know as listeners that if you have students as well that you feel with benefit from such a training, we would love to take that training to them as well. Dean, we got one minute in our radio broadcast and so what I'm gonna do is give an opportunity to plug this podcast to our radio listeners. Mr Mississippi has a Living Reconciled podcast. You can go to your Apple app, you can go to Google anything that you have that you listen to podcasts on or you can go out there Spotify and you can search on Living Reconciled Again. Living Reconciled it typically is the first podcast that comes up. Go out there, subscribe, like and share it with your friends and family and we will have always, or typically we will have, more content, which we will have today with Dean Anderson on the other side of this break for our podcast listeners Before our radio listeners.
Speaker 1:This concludes our time today on Living Reconciled and we want to wish you all a God bless, god bless. God bless, god bless. Living Reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community Live Reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6.45 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at missionmississippiorg and click on the events button or call us at 601-353-6477. Hey, thanks again for joining us on this episode of Living Wrecking Side. We are in episode 32 with really really, really good friends, austin Hoyle and Nettie Winters.
Speaker 3:Really, really good friends. Cooling the gang, the boys are back intact and we all have beers this time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nettie's growing a beer. No shave, no Vember, and we're moving into December and you still got it. Huh, how long you gonna keep it In perpetuity?
Speaker 3:In perpetuity. You know, that's what makes decisions about my beer. That how long I'm gonna keep it is not up to me.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, roger, that Okay okay.
Speaker 2:That's another way.
Speaker 4:Shout out to Tommy Winters.
Speaker 2:Thomasine is gonna have to say that Shout out to Miss Tommy Winters.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, but we also have, in addition to our really good friends, we also have Dean John Anderson with the Mississippi College School of Law. Dean has been enlightening us in a lot of different ways and one of the things I want to pick your brain on, dean Anderson, is we talked about your experience with reconciliation, racial healing and how Mississippi has been transformative, not only to your faith, but your commitment to racial healing as well. As you look, as you canvass or survey through the years Mississippi, what is your current thoughts and reflections on our state of race in terms of, you know, our, our racial healing, racial division, challenges, joys and successes? Would you just, you know, spend a few minutes and just tell us in terms of what you're seeing right now, in 2023, as it relates to the state of race here in the state?
Speaker 4:Well, we obviously we've got a long way to go, but I feel like right now kind of the biggest challenge is a little bit of a different challenge than what historically we have faced. And what I mean by that is, you know, what I'm seeing with our students and elsewhere is there seems to be kind of an inability. People are, I think, now talking about this issue more than ever.
Speaker 4:And I mentioned a little bit more about or earlier about how. When I came to Mississippi, it was refreshing to me that these discussions were happening openly, authentically and sometimes, you know, very in a heated manner, uncomfortable, but they were authentic conversations about race, about discrimination. What worries me right now, more than anything else, is that these these discussions are happening but they're not. It's not discourse, it is. It is a kind of a shouting at cross purposes in the direction of the other person, as you said, in just in one earhole and out the other, and it really is just looking for opportunities for gotcha moments, and so much of the discussion around race has become knee jerk, absolutely, and not authentic and not intentional. So that is, you know what, at the law school, what we're trying to do through the program that you referenced earlier, where Michigan, mississippi's come to MC law speaking to our 1Ls and then coming back and speaking again to our 2Ls about how to have conversations about these difficult issues that they're seeing on the headlines and they're getting this kind of bias perspective. Doesn't matter whether you're left or right. The news sources are giving a bias span on these issues that are so crucial, important to the future of our families, our communities, our country, and people need to talk about this in a way that can be productive, and they've lost the ability to do it somehow in this contentious environment.
Speaker 4:So that, to me, is the biggest challenge. I mean, yes, it is. You know, we've still got a problem with respect to race. Ten years ago I would have felt like we were. We were beginning to have those hard conversations that were going to help us, not in the next year, not in the next five years, but maybe in the next 10 or 20, 20 make real progress. And now I feel like we're just fighting and we're not discoursing. So I feel like the challenge is to get us back to discoursing and get us back to listening, and and then that's where progress comes in. And I know, again, that sounds like a commercial for Mission Mississippi, but thank you, that's why.
Speaker 4:I believe so much in this group and this organization because I know that's always been your mission, that's always been you know, dean, we're you know Brian alluded to earlier about our partnership with the law school and what we're doing with the students in terms of relationships.
Speaker 3:You know that is open to the public. It's open to churches, community organization, businesses. You know we want the the the circumference of the communities and in our population to have access to what we're talking about. You know former law students have volunteered here and gone on in life and have used those skills of relationship building not only to walk out the right thing to do at the relates to rate, but also they want to some cases and win some negotiations and other things by utilizing the skills they've developed by relationship building. In terms of the, I said we they got through it successfully, had the impact that needed to happen and things went well in the right direction in terms of I'm not trying to say to the law school come to Mitch Smith, we'll help you win a case.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:But it helps though. We, though we will yeah.
Speaker 1:Then he won't say it, but Austin will.
Speaker 3:But overall life and success of navigating through issues and things like you're talking about is that you know we got to negotiate life. That's definitely about it, and so oftentimes we have these negotiators that what do you call them in law? The settlement conferences but then there's law.
Speaker 3:You specialize in being like the navigator the conflict management negotiations the whole deal, the arbitrators and the idiot, yeah, yeah, and so we need this in every spectrum of society, and I just with with Christians and the whole spectrum of society. But Christians ought to be the modern example of showing the outside world and other people how it is done, and so we want to offer that, especially as you alluded to the news and how that, how things are. You know, I call it just a shout and match man. It's like let's get two opposing sides on on NBC, cbn or whatever you call it, fox or whatever you and and you know, and just let them go at it for a minute and all of a sudden the guy stops them and it's like man, that is. That is really horrible.
Speaker 4:And it just what's sad to me is no one, no one's going to concede a point, right, right.
Speaker 3:No one's going to concede a point. So it really is. It's just a weakness man. That'd be a sign of weakness If you concede even though you know it's right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 3:So you'll ignore the question Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Exactly, which is the absence of humility.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I would even say, in the legal profession, at least in the training of, of of future lawyers, it would be, you know, it run contrary to teach them to concede a point, when, when they, when they are authentically well, because yeah, and here's the thing, when you mentioned kind of settlement conferences, well, in the practice of law right things that are said in settlement conferences aren't admissible in trial Right, and there's a reason for that because they want people to speak openly and concede right so that you can find common ground and and and actually make progress.
Speaker 1:That's, that's interesting, that's good.
Speaker 4:And what we've got to be able to do is be able to find common ground Absolutely and make progress Absolutely. And you know, and, and I know again that those are the skills that you all are teaching, and you know, and I tell my students, listen how can you advocate for a client who comes into your office, who has different skin color than you and you know has a different lived experience, if you don't take time to understand who they are and where they're coming from?
Speaker 4:how are you going to be able to understand what they want, what they're asking you for and, similarly, how are you going to be able to effectively build an argument against someone If you don't understand their lived experiences or where they're coming from? Absolutely we're convinced a judge, right. So so this, this, these skills, I mean they're necessary. A Good Christian should always be coming at it from this perspective, but it's also good business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we've been slow boiling in terms of our Discipleship as a relates as it relates to our methodology of engaging one another in real relationship. We've been in a slow boil, you know neti mentioned where even the entire philosophy of media and television has kind of Changed and been uprooted in a sense, where now most of our, most of our news commentary is, hey, let's put two people on the opposing sides and, and almost like fighting, like fighting chickens Ring the bell, yeah, turn them loose you know, and then let them didn't let them peck each other for about ten minutes and then pull them back from each other and then ring the bell again and let them peck each other for another ten minutes and pull.
Speaker 1:You know and and for, and. What we don't realize is that there's a slow boil kind of effect to us, where we watched this over and over and over again and then we begin to think that this is the way we're supposed to engage one another. Social media was another way in which that happened. It's kind of anonymous again him fighting. You know that we would kind of sanction and allow and and and and. When we read our Bibles, you know there's the person of Jesus and then there's the way of Jesus, and when we read our Bibles, this is so far from the way of Jesus.
Speaker 3:Whatever, whatever happened to Ww JD what?
Speaker 4:would Jesus do right?
Speaker 1:That's bad when we fast so far from, so far from the way of Jesus still with some of those bracelets, yeah yeah, the road of meekness, right, you know.
Speaker 1:first Corinthians 13 love, patience, kindness, you know, long-suffering, gentleness, all the fruit of the spirit, I mean all these things that characterize the, the person of Christ, and that he invites us to participate in when we join him, are things that run contrary to the, to the, to the Ethics, so to speak, of the, of the, of the world, in terms of what is conditioning us to accept and so, yes, it's very much a slow boy.
Speaker 4:Well, and, and I think that, again, going back to if we can, if we can speak to Christians, to really take it, take a step back, reassess and not shut down. I know that you all, as pastors, know this right that you're, that your congregation, you're constantly asking them, monday through Saturday. Let's, let's not just walk out of here and wait till next Sunday, you know, let's not just wait for the person on the way out of the parking space coming out of church.
Speaker 4:Absolutely but do it at, you know, on the roads during the week. I think where this comes from, in that when we turn to political discourse, it's this fear, right, yeah? That we forget that this, this battle was won 2000 years ago. We forget that victory is is ours and.
Speaker 4:It's just, we're just just waiting for things to get the smoke to clear and we we have this fear and insecurity, and from that insecurity comes as defensiveness, right where is? If we could just remind ourselves, you know, jesus has this kind of there's no plan B for the father.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:And so let's just Sit back and rest in that confidence. And let me concede a point, because I know this person's got reasons for why they they're in such Stanched disagreement with me, mm-hmm, on these issues, and they're founded. There's truth. There's a there's truth to to where they're coming from. It may not be the whole truth. Mm-hmm but there is truth.
Speaker 1:So let's begin by conceding that and see how quickly heart soften and see how quickly the whole situation Diffuses just with just just just just with that, just with conceding there's so much power to de-escalate a room, just with simply saying you know what you're right about that, nady, there's so much power and and de-escalating the room.
Speaker 3:We used to work, conceded, but it's really not conceding. It's by new grace For further understanding, for further insight you know, I don't see it, just the way you see it. So help me understand, tell them more. Help me understand why you feel the way you feel about this and begin to have questions and insights and other things, as you have this conversation and you know when the dust. So it may be that you on the same page and just didn't spend enough time to figure it out that you want the same page.
Speaker 2:I've had so many of those to happen, right yeah you just talk about it in a different way or come from it or talk about it from a different perspective, but you're talking about the same thing and talking about the same love. Talking about you know, wanted to make sure is all, all is good and right for your family, because, I mean, that's what I'm beginning to find is the number one hope. Absolutely that we all have in common is that we want what is good and right for our, for our family.
Speaker 2:Absolutely for the people, for the people whom we love, right, and that's that's a, that's a like this commonality that we do have.
Speaker 2:And when we kind of break down and, dean Anderson, this is getting back to you're talking about, you know, airtight arguments versus the person of Jesus, when we move from having to rely upon our abstract Critical thinking skills, because those can only bring us so far, no matter how good at argumentation that we, that we get, it can only take us so far until it, until it begins to fall short.
Speaker 2:But being able to recognize how far our Argumentation skills can take us, being able to recognize how far our intellect can take us, and then being able to, as, as I find and I'm just I'm heartened by your, by, it seems like it's like it's a legal pedagogy that is rooted in humility, and Just legal pedagogy that's you, rooted in humility, allows us to concede points for the sake of love and for the sake of connecting people heart to heart, which to see that that's kind of and this is my language, obviously not your language, no, but it but it seems that that's the type of persons, that type of lawyers, that you would like to create, you would like to, you'd like to grow.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and, by the way, that's why that our architect is so brilliant. Right, it also works out for the good of all parties right it's gonna. It's gonna actually Financially benefit everyone. Yes, going to, you know, have material returns as well. That's not why you do it, but but it will.
Speaker 3:That's a benefit of doing it.
Speaker 4:That's right, and so when?
Speaker 3:we in situation is right is what we should be working toward, as you just alluded to, absolutely and with with that, you know, jesus gives us the opportunity to have those win-win come. I heard child's pig are in say one time. We ought to be doing this not only because the right reason to do it. But it's just pragmatic reasons to do it, it just makes sense to do this because it benefits the whole and I just you know, keep us in this uproar of chaos.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean you, we talk about it all the time, that he, when we're we're going, we're on the road, and and we're talking about why, why should you care about living reconciled? You know, we, we say that there's obviously, first and foremost for Christians, there's a spiritual reason, right, jesus? Jesus prays for it. So if Jesus prays for something, we should care about it. Jesus prays that we be one as he and the father or one, so we should care about it. But he also and commands us towards unity, that we should walk in the unity of the spirit, in a bond of peace. But then we say, if you're just talking about it, practically, it benefits Mississippi.
Speaker 1:But, Mississippi to be unified. It just benefits Mississippi. Mississippi will only flourish, we will only thrive, we will only see more opportunities, we will only see more business, more commerce, more economic revitalization. If we walk in unity and so, practically, pragmatically, it serves us to do this.
Speaker 3:Notice he didn't say sameness, he said unified. And we have this thing, unity and unified, and all those things. We get this idea that everybody's got to be the same.
Speaker 4:Right, no, no, no no.
Speaker 3:The more the diversity greater the unit.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. Dean Anderson, we have incredibly appreciated your time. Would you talk to us a little bit about what you see out there in terms of? We talked about challenges. What do you see out there in terms of racial healing, reconciliation that brings you, right now, tremendous hope and tremendous encouragement about the future?
Speaker 4:Well to me every day just seeing my faculty, my staff, our MC law family and the students. How, when I look across the country and read the headlines and see what's going on in legal academia and academia elsewhere so much division, so much kind of physical, visible altercation and I look at our family and our students and which is, we are one of the more diverse student bodies in the country that everyone loves each other and gets along.
Speaker 1:Fantastic and.
Speaker 4:I know that that is not the reality out there in the world, but it shows it's possible. And of course we're not perfect Of course there are but by and large everyone gets along and is supportive and cares for one another. And it's because we, I think, really try hard to say we love one another and show it that we care for our fellow faculty and staff, but also our students, and it pays off. So I guess that's a positive for me that I see every day so much. My life is just consumed with the law school.
Speaker 4:But I just I see it and it does give me hope, because I look at law schools elsewhere in the country and it does not appear as though that's happening. But I feel like we are. We are doing really well and so I'm very proud of that and grateful for that. I think it's I think a lot of it has to do again to make another plug for Mission Mississippi. The work you all have done to help us at the law school creating, you know, bridges across divides. I think it's paying off and I've heard that from students as well. So again, I'm just very grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much, dean Anderson, for sharing what brings you hope. That certainly brings us hope to hear that Mission Mississippi is having an impact at the, at the, at the school of law. That's encouraging to us. How can we keep up with, dean Anderson? I know you have some works out there that you've ridden on Insider trading. I'm not sure how many of how many of our audience members are salivating to get in books about insider trading, but talk to us a little bit about how we can keep up with Dean Anderson books that we can read.
Speaker 4:Well, you know, I was a professor for many years and a scholar and that was the area of law I practice in. When I was in Washington DC at a firm I did securities enforcement and I did defended individuals who were charged with, you know, securities law violations and did a lot of insider trading cases. So yes, I've read written tens of articles in a book on insider trading and white color crime so that you know if you ever Right, right, if you ever need a need of help, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hopefully You're not, but if you are, if you are we got you guys?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it would be good to read it, so you won't need it, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Learn what not to do.
Speaker 4:And then, but I do you know, I do also write articles on pluralism and problems of pluralism and drawing my philosophical background and write about constitutional. You know how do you create an authoritative constitutional order in the midst of, you know, a pluralistic society, that that no longer accepts truth of the capital T, whether it be religious, philosophical, moral or otherwise.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:How do you still create what is kind of a normative moral order that everyone considers to be authoritative, a conception of justice that everyone can appeal to Right? So, I write a lot on that, so I would love anyone to take to.
Speaker 1:Where can they find articles like that? So?
Speaker 4:if you, if you go to my webpage at MC law, for, for me, my profile, and you could just click on my, my CV, and you'll see the site to that. And nowadays you can pretty much just punch into Google any article and you can get a copy of it. And if anyone can't find a copy of it, I'd be more than happy to send it, send it to anyone who's interested in reading it. But but, that's and just you know, keep up with MC law, keep us in your prayers. Again, we, we love to serve Mississippi, we love this state, we are, you know, the only, you know, faith-based law school in this state. And so, you know, we, we need those prayers, we ask for those prayers and and we just we hope that we can be lifted up by everyone in the hearing of this podcast.
Speaker 1:Awesome, dean Anderson has been a great pleasure and a great joy for you to spend a little time with us.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 1:We certainly invite our listening audience to be praying for the School of Law at Mississippi College and for Dean Anderson in particular and his family. Again, this has been episode 32 of Living Reckon Style. We're going to try to give you guys some time to log off and go and do a Google search on pedagogy, because I'm trying to. I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure folks are trying to figure out what the definition of that term was Is that because I threw it out?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I won't. I won't throw out big words anymore, I just I'll just stop doing it.
Speaker 1:They'll go and try to find out what pedagogy is. It's you know.
Speaker 3:I think there's a source that tells you that I think they've already Googled it. Yeah. Yeah, I heard it but I've looked for my phone. Yeah, you look for your phone and go search it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, aka, also you can. I think you can use teaching too. That might be Teaching, teaching. That would be much better. Yeah, that'd be close.
Speaker 2:I mean the, the, the study or the philosophy of, of education or teaching of how we acquire and how we're going to start doing it.
Speaker 4:Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I thought you were going to laugh.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm going to say that's your good, good, good friend.
Speaker 2:Oh look, look, I said, said this to me three or four hours Three or four hours we're working on it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, it's been great to have the whole gang back together again. On behalf of Austin Hoyle, nettie Winners, dean John Anderson, I'm Brian Crawford signing off saying God bless, god bless, god bless. Thanks for joining, living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.