We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
We turned the tables and invited T.J. Tennison, Lead Pastor at Crossway Church in Vicksburg, MS to interview Brian Crawford, president of Mission Mississippi and regular host of Living Reconciled. Brian was asked this episode to discuss his journey during the initial eight months of his tenure. Alongside the wisdom of Neddie Winters and Austin, we delve into the personal experiences and leadership insights that are shaping the path to healing within our communities.
in the discussion, we confront the complexities of trust across racial lines, the challenge of nurturing safe spaces for dialogue, and the courage required to engage in tough, yet grace-filled conversations.
We conclude by contemplating the journey ahead and the ways individuals can play a role in this transformative mission. Join us for an enlightening discussion that promises not just to broaden your perspective but to inspire practical steps toward deeper unity.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
We turned the tables and invited T.J. Tennison, Lead Pastor at Crossway Church in Vicksburg, MS to interview Brian Crawford, president of Mission Mississippi and regular host of Living Reconciled. Brian was asked this episode to discuss his journey during the initial eight months of his tenure. Alongside the wisdom of Neddie Winters and Austin, we delve into the personal experiences and leadership insights that are shaping the path to healing within our communities.
in the discussion, we confront the complexities of trust across racial lines, the challenge of nurturing safe spaces for dialogue, and the courage required to engage in tough, yet grace-filled conversations.
We conclude by contemplating the journey ahead and the ways individuals can play a role in this transformative mission. Join us for an enlightening discussion that promises not just to broaden your perspective but to inspire practical steps toward deeper unity.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines.
Speaker 2:Welcome everybody to episode 36 of the Living Reconciled podcast. We're so glad that you decided to join us today. I am not the voice you're used to hearing, so, if you're wondering, this is not Brian Crawford. My name is TJ Tennyson. I'm a pastor of Crossway Church in Vicksburg, mississippi.
Speaker 2:I'm a good friend of Brian's, so what I decided to do was kind of hijack the podcast a little bit, and you know, brian is always on the part of the podcast where he's asking people questions, and I thought, man, it'd be great if someone could pick Brian's brain. He's one of the smartest guys that I know. He's a very, very good, good friend of mine. He's incredible even and so I want to take just a podcast and interview. I got a bunch of questions that I kind of had curiosity questions. I wanted to ask Brian, and maybe you'd be interested in some of his answers.
Speaker 2:Before we get rolling here, I should mention that I am joined today not just by Brian Crawford, but by my magnanimous friends Nettie Winters and Austin, who is Nettie Winters child. If you want to know what that means, you should listen to episode 35 of the podcast. Before we get going, though, let me acknowledge our sponsors for the podcast. We want to thank Nissan Atmos Energy Regions Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, christian Life Church, miss Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward and Miss Ann Winters for your generous support of the podcast. We appreciate everything you do. So with that, let's just go ahead and get started here. Brian, you have been president, El Presidente, el Fife, of Mission Mississippi now for about eight months and I was curious, can you just kind of start off by talking to us about like how do you feel like your first eight months of president ship if you will have gone?
Speaker 1:I mean, how do you feel like you know things have gone, you know good, bad, ugly, whatever, yeah, first, man, this is incredible that I get a chance to hang out with my really really, really good friends and my awesome friend TJ and have this conversation. It's been a journey the last eight months. I would say in part it's been everything that I hoped it would be. And then, in many ways, there's a lot of, I guess, unexpected things to the work of Mission Mississippi. It's an incredibly challenging job. There's a lot of moving parts, a lot of moving pieces.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we're on the road an incredible amount, traveling up and down this state, talking to different churches, different pastors, different denominations, different organizations, non-profits, local businesses, and just communicating, just making this clarion call, as Nettie would say, that reconciliation matters, that Jesus cares about it. So so should we. And it's been an incredibly busy season. I mean, I came in knowing that it was going to be busy. I don't think I quite came in knowing how busy this season would be. I thought there was going to be some time to ramp up, so to speak. Yeah, you're kind of easing the job.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. And April, in April, first it was like it's go time, let's roll out. And so we've been peddled to the metal ever since, and so that's probably been the most interesting thing and, like I said, in many ways it's although there's a lot of, I guess, surprises in many ways it's also very much what I expected it to be. This is something I'm incredibly passionate about. I tell people all the time when we're on the road or when we're having conversations about Mission Mississippi and me taking this job, I say that there's always. I've always thought that there were three jobs in the world that you can have.
Speaker 1:There's the job that you have to do, which is the one that my father sent me out at 16 and said hey, somebody's going to pay for this, somebody's going to put gas in this car. And so I became a Shoneys waiter and then, from there, a Walnut Hills waiter, and then eventually over on a Ryan's waiter. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's worth noting that Ryan's is no longer a business and Ryan's is no longer a business.
Speaker 1:Wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 3:Wasn't that all you can eat buffet.
Speaker 1:Yes, it was.
Speaker 3:I was a waiter at all. You can eat place. I was a waiter at all, you can eat. Sounds challenging.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and so that was the job I had to do. I didn't sign up for that job, and then there's the job that you get to do, which is the Corps of Engineers. 21 years, and every day I woke up and I felt fortunate and blessed to actually get up and go to work and do something that I love to do, and I had no problems leaving Ryan's to go work for the Corps of Engineers.
Speaker 1:It was a great privilege to go work for the Corps of Engineers. And then there's the job that you're called to do, and so I left the Corps of Engineers. Me and my wife counted our pennies in our piggy bank, made sacrifices because there was an opportunity to get to do the job that we felt the Lord was calling us to and that we felt the Lord was calling me to. And so, in the sense of surprises, of course, yes, this job has had its share of surprises, but in the sense of walking into calling and what I felt like the Lord was calling me to do, there has been nothing but affirmation that the Lord has called me to this work, and so I've been incredibly blessed and incredibly privileged to have that as my experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, one friend to another. You know I've seen you in several different roles. You know I've seen you. You know you pastor city like church in Vicksburg. You know I've seen you in your role with the Corps of Engineers and I've seen you when you're role here with Mission Mississippi.
Speaker 2:And when I watch you here I think to myself he was, he's good at everything else he does, but I think he was made for this you know, and I'm just, it's a thrill to be on the outside looking in watching my friend doing the thing, and man, I'm just, I'm grateful for you, your heart for it and what you're doing. So I appreciate that, bro. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:I thought this was going to be a roast man. What is this?
Speaker 2:No, I mean it's coming, that's how they got us into the room.
Speaker 1:Listen, if you keep the TJ cell you got to I was like we're going to get Brian, we're going to get Brian man?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you guys wait for it. I'm supposed to wink at you and then you go.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry, I'm sorry. We're supposed to be discreet, my bad.
Speaker 4:By the way, we don't know how to do that, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:You don't do discreet, I don't have to take that magnanimous thing back.
Speaker 3:You've never had a description taken back, not even stupendous.
Speaker 2:I still don't know whether stupendous is a good thing or not.
Speaker 3:I still take it as an insult.
Speaker 2:It's what it is you know, which means this is like turnabouts, fair play sort of situation, absolutely yeah, yeah. So, brian, one of the things that I love about your situation, because I got to do the same thing. So I'm Pastor Crossway but I followed a guy named Terry White, who is just incredible, I mean. He passed that church very effectively, did a great job for well over 20 years and he kind of took me under his wing and he kind of, you know, taught me and raised me up and then transitioned and then, once I became a leader man, he became a huge cheerleader and still is a good friend of this day and you kind of have some of the same dynamic working here.
Speaker 4:I mean.
Speaker 2:Nettie did an incredible job leading Mission Mississippi. There's so much good work that has happened underneath him and you've been fortunate to but it's the part I like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know I can tell you you got that big weird grin on your face but you really do. All joking aside, and I've told Nettie this just one on one and stuff. He just you know Mission Mississippi was so fortunate to have him as a leader. It's such a good job. So can you kind of talk a little bit about Nettie's impact on you, maybe some things that you've learned from him that have really served you well so far?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. First of all, everything you said about Nettie is 100% true. He has had an incredible impact on the life of Mission Mississippi and, as a result, has had an incredible impact on the state of Mississippi as it relates to the work of reconciliation, and his commitment to reconciliation is unparalleled it really is. It cannot be compared as it relates to what he's done for this state and what he's done for the body of Christ in our state in terms of advancing the work of racial healing. There's several things that I can say that I've learned from Nettie. First of all, the importance of generosity. Nettie has an incredibly generous spirit and, for a penny counting engineer, that's a lesson that's necessary.
Speaker 3:I've seen him do, I've walked in on him counting pennies.
Speaker 2:Wait, nettie or Brian. No, brian, oh, okay, and so watching him it's like a.
Speaker 1:Tuesday forum.
Speaker 3:It's a Tuesday afternoon activity, yeah, but just oh sorry.
Speaker 1:But no, just watching him just give his life away. And so in so many instances, whether it's whether it's a meal, whether it's a lunch, or whether it's time or whether it's, you know, his, his agenda can be oftentimes disrupted in an instant for the sake of a relationship, and so he can have things that are, that are on the agenda, he can have things that are scheduled, and you'll see him move those things in an heartbeat for the sake of relationship. And so just that the importance of relationship to Nettie is is worth imitating and worth emulating and worth following, and so that's one of the biggest pieces, and I think it matches or it meshes with reconciliation. Right, yeah, reconciliation by default is going to require inconvenience, 100%. It's going to require you to to have some things disrupted, to have some things moved around, to have some things shift for for the sake of love and for the sake of, for the sake of union, for the sake of healing right.
Speaker 1:And Nettie has shown me that in the last year and just in just a profound way, and so that's that's been an incredible gift to me. Also, he's shown me the ability to actually listen to all sides and be able to process what you know what's happening in all sides, be able to hear not just what's being said but was not being said, being being able to dig underneath the surface, to to get to the heart of things, and so, and so much of this work right, and so much of this racial healing work. It is often a journey towards the heart. You know, we, we, we're, we're in a lot of times, we're in these conversations and we're trying to hear and we listen to the words that people are saying without making sure that we actually process the heart of what people are saying.
Speaker 1:And Nettie is, is just an incredibly gifted individual in listening to the heart. He can actually get underneath words and actually get to the heart of a matter and be able to diagnose. You know where people are, and so he facilitates in an incredibly helpful way that I've been able to glean and watch and learn, and so that's that's been incredible, watching him love his family as a and you know, of course, that's important to me. So, as you know, we we had an opportunity to, to, to honor and celebrate Nettie for his surprise birthday party in September. That's right.
Speaker 2:So thank you for watching.
Speaker 4:I think I was 16.
Speaker 3:I was about to say 37.
Speaker 2:We can't say that his memory is strong at his age, 16 plus 16 plus 16 plus hey, but you know what I noticed?
Speaker 3:we were shaking hands the other day and man, he just has such a strong grip. His muscles are already getting tighter.
Speaker 2:It's weird, though, like he looks at you with this intensity, like he's trying to beat you at something I know, I know.
Speaker 3:I felt it, I'm like, I got it, you're strong, he's. He's quailed my inner spirit a number of times.
Speaker 1:But during the birthday man, what stood out to me was just how loved he was man. He, you know, we had 200 people in the room and everybody had a story about how their lives were impacted by net he went. Every single person in the room had a story about how their lives were impacted by net. He wenters, and and the way that that his friends spoke so highly of him and the way that his family and his children spoke so highly of him were were encouragements to me to run this race. Well, you know you, yeah, this, this is a. This is a seat with incredible responsibility, but it does not, this seat does not exempt me from the call to my friends, from the call to my family, and so I have to make sure that I tend to those gardens well, and so that's one of the things that net he's taught me as well.
Speaker 2:Man, you know what? I would add two things too that have impressed me with net he over the years and just my interactions with him through mission Mississippi. One is the incredible humility that he brought to the role that he modeled for everybody. I remember the first time I met him he was picking my brain, asking me for just trying to.
Speaker 2:He thought this, this kid out of nowhere, he's a young fella, had something to offer, or at least act like it and I just remember being impressed at a guy like him, whatever you know, even bothered to ask, and also just how he invests in the younger generation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I just care about raising up and bringing up the next generation and I just I want to honor you that for that. Uh netting, I think you're.
Speaker 4:I appreciate it. I don't let it, man. Y'all don't talk so fast, man.
Speaker 2:All right, we're going to take a break. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1:Living reconciled is a work of mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 645 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at missionmississipiorg and click on the events button, or call us at 601-353-6477.
Speaker 2:All right, everybody, we're back with the podcast takeover by TJ I think that's how I'm going to call it, so glad you're joining me here. I'm interviewing Brian. Brian normally interviews everybody else, but I am interviewing Brian today and just asking him the hard-hitting question. So we've been talking about how amazing Nettie is and I'm tired of talking about that now.
Speaker 3:Just joking, I think.
Speaker 2:Nettie's tired, nettie's getting uncomfortable, so I think it's time to give up.
Speaker 4:I waste my coffee and everything I'm getting all nervous this time.
Speaker 2:Got all antsy over there. But look, let me move on. We're talking about Brian and how it's. You know, brian, we've been talking about how that it's been so far and what you've learned from Nettie. That's been, and we could go on and on. We really could.
Speaker 4:Could I interject? You are magnanimous, so go on and do your thing yeah, you know, by the way, Terry and I use the same book for transit the thing that we wanted to model.
Speaker 1:You and Terry use the same book for transition. Yeah, name of the book was the transition.
Speaker 2:I think it's called transition.
Speaker 4:Yeah, transition. Yeah, bob Russell, bob Russell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I was just giving it for the listener, for the listening audience.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. You shared that book with me yeah, and it's really good.
Speaker 4:But also our goal, from my perspective, was to do a Paul and Bonimus and saw Paul and Bonimus thing that the transition would be so seamless, yeah, and it would be such a natural transition that the upheaval or the downheaval of many organizations, that would not interfere with the transition, but it would take some take a nose, dive some to upswing. We wanted to take an upswing in God's direction as it relates to that, and I think what Brian is describing is us sitting down together going through those things. So I think, as a transition, as you and Terry, you know, I think it's a transition, I think it's a biblical way. So so often when transitions take place, the organizations suffer as a result of that. Our church for that matter.
Speaker 2:And look, you know I can't speak for Brian, although I think I'm going to you and Terry both modeled something for for us that I really hope I serve God really well and then one day do what you did, I hope. I love the call, I love the church, I love the people enough to go. Okay, it's time to hand the reins to a younger fella and then just step aside A different one.
Speaker 4:Anyway, and cheer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he, we're not sure.
Speaker 3:you're 16, 17 now, so you know right, absolutely, you started at a young age. Yeah, you were. I mean nonprofits, I didn't know you can start in utero. But, yeah yeah, yeah. Nettie is ready.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's his slogan. We could put it on a t-shirt.
Speaker 3:With his face.
Speaker 1:Right, right, absolutely, there you go.
Speaker 3:That's. That's going to be a birthday t-shirts next September. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Well, brian, let's talk a little bit about you know. I think you've been in the role long enough now to that you probably have been able to sort through a little bit, have a little bit of you know, some kind of clarity about you, know the kind of the future and some things you'd like to accomplish in the future. Can you, can you, talk to us a little bit about some of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, big picture, right when we talk about God size dreams. Here in Mission Mississippi, we have a 20 year vision that we've been fleshing out and that 20 year vision is simply we desire to see a tangible, thorough and thriving expression of living reconciled in every single corner of our state. And that living reconciled movement we desire it to be multi ethnic, multicultural, multi denominational, multi generational. Tangible in the sense that TJ Tennyson or Netty Winners or Austin Hoyle don't have to drive to the Gulf Coast to find a group of people that's serious about reconciliation. They exist in their backyard. If they are in the state of Mississippi, there is a group of people that is serious about reconciliation that exists right there. That's good. That is committed to engaging their local leaders, business leaders, civic and civil nonprofits and organizations and, of course, churches in the work of reconciliation. And so tangible. Thorough in the sense that it embodies all of the Mission Mississippi staples, so to speak commitment to prayer, commitment to leadership engagement, but also commitment to deep relationships, building and cultivating deep relationships, having challenging and difficult conversations, but having them in a way that's vulnerable and that breathes life rather than chokes life out. And so tangible and thorough. And then thriving in the sense that it is thriving because it's multi generational. It has the wisdom of the legacy and the founding generation, but it has the energy and the forward movement and momentum of the Gen Y's, the Gen Z's, the Gen Xers and beyond, and the next generation is to come. So it's thriving because it has both wisdom from the elders and youthful energy incorporated in that movement and it's all over the state. And so one of the things we've been talking about is, as we commit ourselves to that vision, we realize that part of our journey is that we're standing on the shoulders of our elders and those that have gone before us, and they were committed to breaking the barriers as they existed around space, shared space, worshiping together, fellowshiping together, eating together, having real conversations and in many ways that is something that can be attributed to Mission Mississippi as it relates to the progress that's been made in our state can be contributed to Mission Mississippi in a large way.
Speaker 1:I think over the next 20 years, what we will be gearing up for is moving beyond shared space and shared proximity into shared experience and shared burden. That's good, and so, now that we sit together and this is not uncommon anymore for us to have a meal together, for us to come to church and worship together. What does it mean for me? What does it mean for me to enter into the space where TJ exists and for TJ to enter into the space where I exist? What does it mean for Austin and Nettie to enter into one another's space and so moving into that experience?
Speaker 1:And then not only moving into that experience, but moving into the burden, right?
Speaker 1:Because as I enter into your experience, tj, or Austin or Nettie, you begin to learn what it is that makes me tick, you begin to learn what it is that makes me weep and what it is that makes me laugh, so to speak.
Speaker 1:And so your burden, or my burden, becomes your burden and your burden becomes my burden. And so there is layers of depth involved in this journey towards healing racial healing that we're on right, and it's more oftentimes people think to themselves well, we're in the same room now, so I guess mission's accomplished right. And what we learn through experiences like, for example, 2008, president Obama or 2016 with President Trump, what we realize is that wait a second. We share space, but we don't share experience, which is why we come at each other when these particular explosive moments in our culture happen Trayvon Martin, george, floyd, ahmad Arbery when these moments happen, there's such an explosion because we share space, but we don't share experience and we don't share burden, and so we are still far apart, and so I believe Mission Mississippi's journey is to continue to pull us closer together, so that we not only are in the same room together, but our hearts are needed together as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, man, that makes me excited about the future of Mission Mississippi, and I think I mean, I think you're hitting on something really important. Let me switch gears with you, though. Let's talk about race and racial reconciliation and all that kind of stuff. From your perspective, what are some of the biggest obstacles that you see? We'll start with the black community when it comes to racial reconciliation, and then I'd like you to talk about what you see as some of the biggest obstacles in the white community. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Starting with, starting with the black community, I would say, and again this I'm not the delegate for the black community, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, I kind of did make you a little, speaking from my own personal experience as a black man.
Speaker 1:I thought you were the broker.
Speaker 4:I did put him in a weird spot there.
Speaker 2:Can you paint with very broad strokes and stereotype a whole bunch of people? Yeah, there's like lives of millions of people. Can you speak for all of them now? Absolutely, you got about five seconds.
Speaker 3:We need you to have absolute clarity. The black delegation has a point of pride for all of us today and I love your delay tactics. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:So I will say, I will say, I will say I will say, I will say, I will say I will say this One of the things that stands out to me is that we're still making the journey towards trust. And so there's, there's, you know, there, you know, every neighborhood has a story, every home has a story, every family has a story, every individual has a story, and so every people has a story, right, and so we, as a people, ethnically in the South, in Mississippi, given all of our history, we are still collectively on a journey to trust. Right and so and so.
Speaker 1:There are things in which there are, there are hurdles in which we have yet to cross that have everything to do with, just simply, I'm not sure if I can, I can make that leap yet, yeah, with the assurance that if I make that leap, I won't get wounded. Right, right, and so and so and so there's there's a hesitation to make the leap. When you talk about, for example, shared space it's a shared experience and shared burden right, there's, there's a leap that's required to get into shared burden and shared experience, and so it's like, okay, we're good, aren't we good enough that we're in the same space now?
Speaker 4:This. This is safe for me. I'm not sure I want to be on the same limb with you, though. Right, right.
Speaker 1:Right, right this. This is safe for me, so I'm not sure if I want to go that far and get out on the same limb and so I think that has a lot to do with the challenge as from a from a black um perspective, from the black context. Again, that's generally speaking.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm not saying that that is appropriate to lay on, lay at the feet of every black black man or woman in the in the state of Mississippi, but I'm saying generally speaking, we are still on that journey to trust. Sure Right, Sure yeah.
Speaker 3:It's interesting because I don't normally hear people speak about the white experience you know what you know what I'm saying I? Hear the black experience, but not the white experience and I think that's because, uh, you know, in the majority culture, white people are generally going to view it as oh, this is just the universal experience. Mm-hmm, you know I mean that's, that's a we got an under undertone of of racism that we as I see I'm playing about, Sorry.
Speaker 4:I just was commenting upon the nature of the question as well, absolutely, yeah, well, I that's going to be his next question, by the way. Oh, okay, I saw exactly what you were.
Speaker 2:yeah, it was the follow-up question because I wanted to comment on. You know, paint broad strokes when it comes to white community. Yeah, yeah and I.
Speaker 1:I definitely have been appointed the delegate for the black. Well, for the black community and the white community, yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm fully prepared to be the delegate for the black community. Oh, I'm just, I'm just, uh, I'm delegated it out to him. Just, it was a whole conference, you know? Whatever there was, there was a meeting. There was a meeting.
Speaker 2:But, but on a journey to trust. I mean, I think you know so, you and I participated in, uh, a conference that you guys put on Absolutely Not too long ago and I, one of the breakout sessions that we did were with two friends, two different sets of friends, one's white and each and one's black and each friendship. And uh, when you, when you, especially, when I listened to the stories of those, the black person in that friendship, uh it, it was for them very much a journey of man. It was a, it was a long, it took them a long way to get to the place where they were, like I think I might want to try to trust. And when you start hearing their stories like for understandable reasons, right, for whoever you know, I know you painted with broad strokes, but if that's true of anybody listening or not listening, when you start hearing people's story, it becomes like, wow, okay, so I understand why there's a journey to trust, right, right.
Speaker 1:And we and part of the journey.
Speaker 1:So part of what mission Mississippi does is because a lot of times, our interactions, we have these singular interactions.
Speaker 1:So I'll have an, I'll have an experience with a white person or TJ, you'll have an experience with a black person and that experience will mark or shape every other perception that you have, or all, or your perception that you have for all white people or all black people, right, right, part of the role of mission Mississippi is to give you more of those experiences. Yeah, so that, so that you don't have this one negative experience that's shaping every, all your perceptions about, about the other side, right, and so, if I can give you more experiences where you realize that there are just as many, you know you, for that one bad black experience that you had, tj, there are a million other black people that are walking in love and generosity and sacrifice. And the same thing for, for, for me and Nettie, for that one bad experience that we had with white people, there are a million other people, a million other experiences that that are good and loving and sacrificing white people. Then, all of a sudden, that gives me room to hope again and trusting in.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I think what makes that journey easier? And if I were to be the official representative for the white community, I would. I would, I would argue, so annoying. Yeah Well, I mean, I got you have it. You have it for the next. I have the microphone, so whatever Right, but you know. I would say what we you got about 30 seconds what we should be on is on a journey to understand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Definitely, definitely. But we should. That's the journey the white community should be on. Yeah, yeah, amen.
Speaker 2:Amen, yeah, so we're about to run out of time for this particular segment. If you're watching listening on the radio, this will probably be the end of the radio segment, but we do. We'll have more. On the podcast. I want to encourage you to go. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast Living Reconciled podcast, do that. And Austin, do you want to offer up any kind of a cliffhanger to encourage people to go watch the rest or listen to the rest of it on the podcast?
Speaker 3:Yes, when we get back, brian is going to tell us what shaving cream he uses. All right, All right.
Speaker 2:If you're wondering what shaving cream Brian uses, go listen to the podcast.
Speaker 4:As that's for his face, or he is.
Speaker 1:Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6.45 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at missionmississippiorg and click on the events button, or call us at 601-353-6477.
Speaker 2:All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Living Reconciled podcast. This is episode 36. This is officially bonus content that was Not aired on the radio. We are so glad you decided to join us. I'm gonna continue to ask Brian some questions before we get back to where we were. There was a very important question, brian, that you had. It was a cliffhanger question what shaving cream do you use?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I use magic Shaveless hair cream or you. This is just, you put the cream on your head and you give it some time four minutes, four To six minutes. Then you wipe it off with a warm, warm rag and all the hair comes off.
Speaker 2:Yes, for those who have never seen Brian in person, he has a beard and I I intentionally Was because you had that receding hairline.
Speaker 1:Intentionally ball, because I don't want you to see my receding hair.
Speaker 3:Oh, I got you, it's a boss power move.
Speaker 2:I can respect that. I can absolutely. Alright, we were talking about when we left magic powder. Not shaving cream per se, but we were talking about kind of some of the obstacles we see kind of in the black community, in the white community. Did you want to kind of circle back around and Talk about maybe, some obstacles you see in the in the white community?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, you see, you see a couple out there in both communities, one, that one that stands out. It's actually one that we, one of the ones that we raised in in the last episode, which is this the sense in which you oftentimes see people say, well, I mean, what exactly is there to do now? We've? Haven't we solved this? Haven't, haven't we resolved this issue? And and oftentimes what I, you know, what I point people to is John 17, and John 17, jesus prays, father. I pray that they be one, as you and I are one, in order that the world may know that you love me, that you sent me into the world.
Speaker 1:Right, there's a sense in which our Oneness becomes the defense of the gospel, it becomes an apologetic to the gospel right, and so one of the things that that I like to tell people is that I'm just not comfortable, until that oneness is established, I'm not comfortable with us being content with just getting alone to get alone, yeah. I'm not comfortable with us being content with just merely the absence of conflict. I'm going to strive and pursue the type of unity that Jesus is praying for, which is a Oneness that is fueled by love, that is infused with love, that Demonstrates the ability to sacrifice for one another, that demonstrates a resiliency with one another where, even where we don't necessarily agree on some points, we're willing to, we're willing to go their extra mile, like you said earlier, to understand one another. I'm just not content with us going to our you know separate homes, going to our separate churches and just having a lack of Conflict and calling that oneness right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah and so and so. Oftentimes I'm challenged to my challenge and my pushback is to say no. There may not be the kind of hatred when we see violence towards one another on a regular basis. Of course we have these isolated moments. We see, we see these isolated moments that that strike that strike fear in all of our hearts and that strike anger and frustration in all of our hearts. But I'm not even talking about those.
Speaker 1:What I'm when I'm saying is just because we don't see that regularly Does not mean that we don't have work to do a hundred we still have an incredible amount of work to do, because there still exist an incredible Amount of separation, where we are not sharing our lives with one another, and that's what Jesus is praying for right, right and so, and so that's probably one of the biggest challenges.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, yeah. So in the middle of these type of issues and let's just say racial reconciliation, there's a curiosity I have, because I've seen this, something similar happen in other contexts, with other things that don't Aren't quite what they could or should be, or don't quite honor God.
Speaker 4:This is set up. Right is a set up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes what happens is in the middle of the conversation, people are talking about a bunch of things, but there's, there's something they should be talking about that they're not, like it's getting overlooked for some reason. So, when it comes to racial reconciliation and the work of racial reconciliation, in your opinion, what's the thing if there is one that people aren't talking a lot about, but they probably should be?
Speaker 1:yeah, there's a car. I mean there's so many things, tj, right. I mean even even right now in Mississippi you know myself, austin Nettie, where it worked on content and Curriculum to try to help people navigate through a lot of these things that they're afraid to talk about. For example, the impact of media on on Racial healing, the impact of the discussion of justice on racial healing, the, the impact of the economy and how people perceive advantages. You know we're, you know weighted advantages, some called privilege and and. And how do you have a discussion around Privilege that doesn't just simply take the cultural cues and say white privilege doesn't exist or doesn't not exist, right? There's a bigger discussion besides white or black privilege right, that needs to be had. And I think there's so many of these different kind of Conversations where we're just we're scared to have them, right. But but that points to a deeper issue we're scared to have them because we don't know how to have them. And every experience that we've had, or most Experiences that we've had, where we try to engage and we try to have that conversation, we got kicked in the teeth and so we said you know what, I'm not having that conversation again.
Speaker 1:What mission Mississippi is trying to do is not just simply pick out the things that pick out the discussions that we need to have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're trying to cultivate the type of space where you can have it and feel like, when you have it is going to, you're gonna walk away Feeling like life, life has been breathing to you rather than sucked out of you, right, so? And so we're trying to help people navigate through that by by encouraging them in this way, by by simply saying listen, it's okay to not get it right, it's okay to say the wrong thing, right? You don't you that if you're gonna have a vulnerable conversation, you can't expect it to be 100% polished, because so many times, when we come together to have these conversations around white or black, we want to have this, we want to have this very honest conversation, and you better say all the right things right things, tj, or we're gonna. We're gonna come down on you. Or you better say all the right things in any winners, or we're gonna come down on you, no yeah you're gonna have a vulnerable conversation.
Speaker 1:If you're gonna have an honest conversation, then I have to be willing to commit myself towards grace and giving you grace, to stumble, to trip over yourself to say something that that that in any other environment, in any other space, people might take offense to, but in this space I'm not gonna be offended, right? Because I realized that you're here for the same reason that I'm here, which is we want to get this right, and so we're gonna give space to one another to actually get this right, even if we trip over ourselves when we're talking.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's so important. You kind of, as you were talking about all this, you reminded me of a question that I knew was a possible question that you were going to ask me, and so this is gonna be a little bit of a curveball, but you're gonna ask me this in an episode 35. We didn't get around to it, but I want to ask you the question. So the question you're gonna ask me is is we become pretty good friends? And here's, here's why I want to ask this, because you and I have had so many of these conversations.
Speaker 2:So, many of them, so we become pretty good friends through the years. We've we're obviously different ethnicities and we probably have some differences in our ministry philosophies, and yet we've cultivated something deep and authentic. Why do you believe that is the case?
Speaker 1:Hmm, I think both you and I approached this conversation as, with recognition that we're image bearers, yeah, so we give one another the dignity that God has given us. We affirm that dignity. We're both image bearers, and so we come to the table recognizing that. I think also, we, we give each other incredible amount of space to be honest, right, yeah, and, and, and I can't I can't stress this enough You're gonna have honesty Right or you're gonna have polish. You don't get both, but you do not get both.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're good with words and I, I'd like to think I'm better now where a polish is still when you have these conversations You're.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you how many of these I've walked away from when you and I've been look, man, I you know I try to. I try not to burden you with the burden of research, but at some point you read books on the subject, you read articles pod, you listen podcast. You got to have a person that you can go I need to process this with and I can't tell you how many times I've walked away from conversations and thought thank God he didn't take that personally, right? I needed to figure that out and I needed somebody to to understand my heart and believe good in me and Not hold me to the specific wording right, right, the.
Speaker 1:The goal is so I can be gracious and still be unpolished, right. And oftentimes we get that confused. We think grace comes in the form of polish and so we don't give people room to fumble, we don't give people room to drop the ball. But I can assume that even if you dropped the ball right, I can assume that you intended grace right when you were speaking, that you spoke from love. Even if you fumbled when you spoke, I can still assume that you spoke from love.
Speaker 1:And oftentimes what happens is, if I see you fumble, then I just assume it was because you hated me and that goes back to me more than it goes back to you. Right? That's me trying to navigate through my own distrust, right, do you see what I'm saying? But if I come to the table in the sense of a first Corinthians 13, love, where I believe the best and hope the best, and walking to this space saying yes, tj loves me, then I can give TJ room to fumble and still accept what he's saying and still work and strive to actually get to the heart of what he's saying.
Speaker 2:Nettie's over here on the couch squirming like he wants to jump in here.
Speaker 4:Man, michigan City and Bryan is real good at this. It's creating an environment where it's safe to be you in a sense, you know, is that you don't have to guard your words. It's like having a conversation with your wife or someone. You don't feel like you ought to have to guard your words or walk on ice, apologize for your emotions, your feelings and all those things. So it creates that environment. But also, you know, he talked about people afraid to have the conversation.
Speaker 4:I think sometimes what raises that fear? We believe that we don't lose some of our heritage or somewhere, our or whatever in a sense. Or am I gonna go away from this having to do something about me? Oh, interesting, yeah, I think that's probably the greatest challenge that I've seen in the years I've been around is that I'm really gonna have to do something if I have this conversation. I've seen it in marriages. I've had people that tell me you know, 50 years of marriage is like well, we just don't talk about that. You know, one lady told me one time she said Pastor, I know what that Bible says, but you know, we've been doing it like this for 30 years, so we'll just keep on doing it. Through the Bible on the table. We gonna keep on doing it.
Speaker 4:So I think sometimes we've gotten so comfortable in our places. Can I say that, yeah, but with rather stay in our place. I think it was some famous person, henry. Somebody said you know, until the pain rises above the pain of change, there'll be no change. Yeah, yeah. So this thing of sometime is like man, it just feels good to be where I am, and until it get uncomfortable here, and then I'm have to do something, maybe I just do nothing.
Speaker 4:So I think and I think that's what people walk away from the conversation, or you know, I have to go through this you know who needs this kind of attitude towards stuff that he was talking about in the difficult conversations and stuff like that. So why should I have a difficult conversation with TJ anyway? Right, that's his problem. Who died and left me, god to teach him, to train him about Black folk? He ought to learn for himself. Right, read a book? Yeah, but what you said was so critical. You can read a book and watch a movie until you set face to face with somebody that care and you can trust or walk through the journey of trust. I smile to you, grace. It's nothing like that man, I'm just a movie, a book or whatever. It just won't get it. You got to have that personal touch that Jesus had.
Speaker 2:You really do, because and I'm a big fan of not I don't think you should run off, and I get it from the Black perspective. It can be a burden to be the answer man, or answer woman or a right?
Speaker 2:And white people should be sensitive to that, and you should at least try to read up and learn and grow that way before you sit down and have a conversation. But Both yeah, we're both. What happens to me, though, is I watch those movies, I'll read the articles or the books, and people think they're explaining it clearly, and I think they're doing the best they can, but it also creates more questions for me, and I got to take those questions somewhere if I'm gonna really wrestle it down.
Speaker 3:Exactly, exactly, I mean there's an appropriate way to do it with somebody whose heart is prepared to have that conversation.
Speaker 3:There you go. But it's also, tj, our responsibility to make sure that the person we're having that conversation with their heart is prepared. Sure, and especially since you and I are pastors, because no matter what, no matter how much time I spend trying to understand what it's like to be Black in Mississippi and the United States, I'll never understand it. Sure, it'll always be something outside of the friendships I have, which, I believe, does create intuition. It'll always be something, though, that is outside of myself.
Speaker 4:You know you bring up a good point, austin. Why is it that we think that we have to become something else other than what we are? You know, one of the things we had in Mississippi is that, you know, god does not ask Black folks to be White or White folks to be Black. Right, yeah, tony Evans says, you know, he's not asking you to like blues, or certainly he's not asking me to like country.
Speaker 3:Well, thank God, that's why I like blues and I don't like country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so you know countries in. Let's just be honest.
Speaker 4:Why do we, why do we get nervous about this sameness thing? You know, we have denominational, we have the political thing and everybody's in their little clique, right, what do you want to call it? To try to make everybody the same, you know. So that concerns me a little bit about what we always try to move in that direction.
Speaker 4:But you know, the challenge we have is that somebody have been reading Emmett Till's book, the Blood of Emmett Till. They read the book, they called me up and said I just don't know what to do this. Just, I'm just messed up from the floor. I'm talking this is a white gentleman, white pass. He said man, I'm just messed up. He said I just need to talk to somebody that can give me a sense of this and you're the only person I know that I can do that with without offending folks or being you know. And he said some of the people I talked to don't have a clue what Emmett Till's book is about, black or white. So there's a place we try to create in this Mississippi to have a place that people can breathe, debrief down low or, like I'm an old friend, just get it off your chest, kind of thing.
Speaker 4:You know, you need a place to vent, to do those things 100% and too often we find ourselves in the church walking away, or running away from the very place God had created for us to do. That, oh man that'll preach Right yeah, that'll preach.
Speaker 2:You know I was thinking about what you're saying earlier. This is kind of connected to all of it and some of what Brian was saying earlier about. You know you share spaces, so you think there's reconciliation, but oftentimes like there's a fear around having these types of conversations and there's a number of reasons why there probably is. But you know what I hear people go well, I don't know if I could or if I don't know if I should, or they may be worried about how somebody will receive it or how the conversation will go. And my thing is you know, do you have a really good friendship with somebody? And you have a good friendship with somebody, you're telling me, but it can't sustain an awkward or uncomfortable conversation Like, are you sure you have?
Speaker 1:a friendship. Are you sure it's a real good friendship?
Speaker 2:Maybe you need to go to work on it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, and I think that's to your point. It shows our distance, it shows us how far we have to go, right, because oftentimes we'll say, well, I mean, we're here, right, we're here, and yet we can't have that difficult conversation, and so the reality is we're not there, right, we're not. We're not there until we can actually have more and more Unapologetically, unapologetic, honest dialogue that doesn't lead to a severance of relationship every time we have the conversation.
Speaker 1:Right it leads to love, it leads to deeper love, it leads to healing, it leads to deeper understanding and it leads to deeper empathy and it leads to the assuming of one another's burden right. And so, until we can get to that space, then that just tells us that we still have room to grow. We still have more ground that we need to cover.
Speaker 2:I feel like we could talk about this for a long time. Let me switch gears, though. So Nettie knows this, I'm sure, personally from a long time of doing it, but doing something that matters, doing something that's big, like what you're doing, doing something that's difficult Because, let's be honest, there's a lot of people that really don't want what you're trying to bring about. I mean, it's an ugly truth of our world, but it's there. Doing that stuff doesn't come without a cost. So can you talk to me about how your work with racial reconciliation has impacted you, how it's impacted your family and the church that you pastor?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Interesting enough, TJ. I think it probably has impacted me in this role a little less than maybe if someone was just coming in blindly. I've had the great joy and great privilege of being involved in reconciliation work on a lower scale for a while now, and so because of that, my transition was a little cleaner, a little smoother. City Light Church. Nothing that we do in Mississippi. Surprise the City Light Church.
Speaker 2:I've actually done these type of conversations as a part of your church service with you, Right right.
Speaker 1:So nothing that we do at Mission Mississippi Surprise the City Light Church. We are constantly pointing our church to the reality that the church is not like family. The church is family and we're all sons and daughters, adopted heirs through Christ Jesus. Right, and so we point people to this reality often that if we are indeed family, then there should be the kind of resiliency present where I can share those things with you and I don't have to be concerned with. Well, if I share that, TJ's probably going to walk away, right? No, we can actually sit down, we can have the hard conversations because we are family, adopted by God. Right, that's the culture of City Light Church as it relates to my family ever since the beginning. Right? My wife went to a predominantly white school in elementary. I went to a predominantly white school in elementary. We have been day walkers as we tell people all of our lives.
Speaker 2:You're comparing yourself to vampires.
Speaker 1:Yeah, day walkers, day walkers, man, we live in the light and, compared to night walkers, living a night in the day, night crawlers, are you? No, you got to go back and look at some blade comics to understand.
Speaker 2:Oh blade.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but living the night, living the day. In other words, we've lived in both worlds. We understand how to relate back to all people, all ethnic groups, so to speak, because we've grown accustomed to that, so we're not as intimidated by it, right? And so moving into this work 100% of the time is not as much of a shift as you might think it may be Now, in terms of just individual Frustrations. Yeah sure you know, because you want this to move faster than it will, Right? I mean, who doesn't want to see this move faster than it actually does?
Speaker 4:And so it. Can I add to his question yeah, he said. What's the cause been? Have you attracted or detracted folks since April 1st? You're not gonna mix it up, man. Wow, you're really going after it.
Speaker 3:Going for the jugular.
Speaker 1:Straight for it, man, I don't know yet.
Speaker 4:I don't know, you still got people on the side.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:They look like they want to cheer, but they ain't quite there yet. I love it Exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly we're not trying to hurt Brian's feelings Exactly, it's still people on the side.
Speaker 4:I got the pump pump, but I'm not moving it because I want to see where it's going.
Speaker 1:I was about to say I was about to say they've opened their mouths, but they haven't started cheering or booing yet, and so you're not sure which way you're going. Right, right, we're still waiting.
Speaker 4:I think that may teach you a little on comedy. You want to know that hadn't made them out of.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:That's your magnificent.
Speaker 3:Magnanimous, magnanimous friend, absolutely Incredible friend right, absolutely.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're gonna look it up. Shake them, pump, pumps man, show them support.
Speaker 3:I do want to make the note that when TJ was talking about himself, he only used one good that's true.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to throw that out there.
Speaker 3:We were magnanimous, you were incredible. Tj only referred to himself as a good friend, so I just wanted to throw that out there so that when you, so you can rewind the podcast and see from the beginning what happened.
Speaker 2:I was like I'd like the record to reflect.
Speaker 4:Would you rethink this?
Speaker 2:You borderline insulted them and I called that magnanimous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you got a stupendous man.
Speaker 2:We just don't even know what that means. It even sounds insulting.
Speaker 3:I know.
Speaker 1:Let me say this, though, because we were talking about you can insult us even more.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, not insult.
Speaker 1:I will say that I have received incredible support. One of the things about this organization is that it is filled with people who are passionate about this work, and it'll probably surprise a lot of Mississippians that are on the outside of Michigan, mississippi, how many people, black and white, are incredibly passionate about this work and who want to see a thriving, reconciled Mississippi. And so I have received incredible support. I have people walking up to me all the time saying we're praying for you, man, we're wishing nothing but the best, we want to see it. Let us know how we can participate, let us know how we can help, let us know how we can support, and that has been an incredible encouragement to me, because it's just reminding me that, although this work may seem hard, and when you turn on your television it may seem like we're a lot farther away from the gold than we want to be, but in the reality, man, when you give them the thick of this, you realize that there's a lot more people in this remnant than you might think, and that's been incredibly encouraging.
Speaker 2:That is encouraging, brian. I had a couple of questions but for the sake of time I want to finish with this question. You know, let's assume there's some people here who have engaged with Mission Mississippi. You know, maybe in a minimal way or not at all yet, but they're here in the podcast. They're going, man, I hear his heart, you know I like that and they're starting to feel something stir inside of them. So if you were to talk to somebody about how they could get involved with Mission Mississippi, how would you tell them to go about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, a couple of ways Pray. Obviously we have prayer meetings in Jackson that have blessed my soul in ways that I just never imagined they would. Every Tuesday and Thursday, 645 am, there's an opportunity for you to gather with the people of God for prayer, for literally reconciliation in the state. Right, they're praying with one another, but not only reconciliation in the state. They're praying for one another's families. You know black, black men, white women, white men, black women they're praying for one another's families. They're keeping track of that, of how one another's families are doing as they're praying right, checking in week after week after week. This group has been gathering for decades around this prayer movement in the city of Jackson. There's other places as well, places like Tupelo, places like the Delta right, where there are prayer movements happening.
Speaker 1:But if you don't have a prayer movement started yet in your neck of the woods, you can start by just going to this prayer movement, because every day is on Zoom, right. So pray, participate, right. You can participate by joining a Friday call. Every other week there's a Friday call that's available that you can join, and we're talking about the heart issues. We refuse to record it because we want to give you safe space to just actually have the heart conversation. So it will not be recorded but it's available for you to navigate through. We're looking at a book right now called how to Heal Our Racial Divide, by Durin Gray, and it's an opportunity and it's a challenging conversation, but it's growth, it's healing. Lessons are learned, tears are cried, even on some Fridays via Zoom, and we would invite you to participate in that way. We would invite you even to serve.
Speaker 1:If you're in a local church in Mississippi and you're like man, we want to get involved in Mission Mississippi, you can be that person, you can be that champion for your local church. You can get a day of dialogue in your community. You can get a prayer group started. You can get a small group, a relational discussion group, started in your community. So sign up, man, be a church liaison, go to missionmississipiorg and visit our site and join our mailing list and reach out to us.
Speaker 1:But then also, tj man, this work, this work isn't free, right? And so there are people that have dedicated their lives to this work and in order for them to do that, it comes as a result of the incredible generosity of people who have invested. And so, even if you're praying and you're participating, you say, hey, is there something else that we can do? Then you can partner with us through recurring donation, through a one-time donation, because every little bit helps us continue this work and ensure that Mission Mississippi not only celebrates 30 years, but is able to live to see even 50, right, and so your contributions, your generosity, is an investment and we use the word investment intentionally, because it is an investment in the work of reconciliation. And so go to missionmississipiorg. There's plenty of ways that you can sign up in terms of serving and partnering with us in this work, and we would love for you to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I want to kind of reiterate that as well. Our church, crossway Church, supports Mission Mississippi and we have a very stringent process that we go through to decide because we take it pretty seriously. We're investing God's money and we want to invest in things where we feel like there's a high return on investment and we feel like at Crossway Church, that Mission Mississippi is a good investment, and anybody who's trying to figure out what to do or on that front, I'd encourage you to go ahead and do it. Well, this will end our podcast today. I hope it was helpful for you. I hope God used it in your life somehow. If you haven't signed up to or subscribed to the podcast, I want to encourage you to do that Living Reconciled podcast and we hope to see you back next time on Episode 37. God bless, god bless.
Speaker 4:Thanks for joining.
Speaker 2:Living Reconciled.
Speaker 1:If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississipiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.