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Discover the enduring power of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from Birmingham Jail" as Brian, Austin, and Neddie journey through the historical and emotional landscape that gave rise to this pivotal document in the civil rights movement. The guys discuss the strategic genius behind King's choice of Birmingham for his campaign, and the deep Christian ethos he leveraged to rebut criticism and articulate his vision for justice and equality.
We explore King's response to being branded an "outside agitator," a label often used to undermine the movement. The conversation also invites listeners into a thoughtful debate on King's principles.
We also grapple with the complexities he faced amidst the violent backlash from segregationists and the contrasting pressures from black nationalists. Join us as we take this weekend to honor Dr. King, whose message remains as relevant as ever.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
Discover the enduring power of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from Birmingham Jail" as Brian, Austin, and Neddie journey through the historical and emotional landscape that gave rise to this pivotal document in the civil rights movement. The guys discuss the strategic genius behind King's choice of Birmingham for his campaign, and the deep Christian ethos he leveraged to rebut criticism and articulate his vision for justice and equality.
We explore King's response to being branded an "outside agitator," a label often used to undermine the movement. The conversation also invites listeners into a thoughtful debate on King's principles.
We also grapple with the complexities he faced amidst the violent backlash from segregationists and the contrasting pressures from black nationalists. Join us as we take this weekend to honor Dr. King, whose message remains as relevant as ever.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled, episode 38. Episode 38. I'm your host, brian Crawford, and I am with my really, really, really prodigious friends Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle Show me how you doing.
Speaker 2:Listen, man, I am excited to be on a podcast with Brian Crawford because we sent him to the dictionary every week and come up with a way to describe how stupid and incredible we are.
Speaker 3:I'm just thinking we're bordering on the absurd at this point. Prediginous See, no, I don't even know what that word means. What does it mean?
Speaker 1:Well, we've accomplished our task today.
Speaker 3:No, no, no.
Speaker 1:If Dr Hoyle doesn't know what the word means, we've accomplished our task. If you're a family at home, you can search dictionaries and find out what prodiginous means. In the meantime, I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsors, folks like Nissan, St Dominic's Hospital at Miss Energy Regions Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, christian Life Church, miss Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward, miss Ann Winters. Thank you so much for everything that you do. It's because of what you do that Mission Mississippi is able to do what we do.
Speaker 1:And today what we are doing is discussing MLK, dr Martin Luther King Jr, and, in particular, we're going to discuss the letter from a Birmingham jail that Dr King composed in the spring of 1963. It is considered a document that will live in the history of America. It is a document that will always be called upon and rehearsed. It is learned in many schools. It is reflected on typically during this time of year, as we celebrate Dr King's birthday here this coming week, and we want to take a little time and reflect on this letter. It's actually a letter that we teach in our class that we have at Bellhaven University, so we spend a couple of days navigating through this letter, gentlemen, upon before digging too deeply into the letter itself. Could you give our listening audience just a little bit of a high level view as to why Dr King was in a Birmingham jail in the spring of 1963 in the first place?
Speaker 2:The reason he was there is because of injustice as it relates to the system, but more specifically, he was jailed for illegal protest and illegal demonstration as it relates to that. I have a note here that says that he was serving a sentence for participating in civil rights demonstration in Birmingham, alabama.
Speaker 2:And you know, when I read this letter, for me it's more of an essay In my mind. I thought, you know, when Apostle Paul wrote the letter to Corinthians, it took two letters first and second letter and though became books in the Bible. And when I read this, this is almost like a book within itself. It has so much meat in it, man. It has so much substance about what was taking place and the reason he was writing the letter.
Speaker 2:I'm very impressed with how he wrote the letter, how he broke it out and diffused the bunk with all of this foolishness from these clergymen while he was in jail. Remind me so much of when Paul was in jail. He wrote so many letters to the Christians and while he was in jail he was more concerned about what was going on with them than he was about himself. When King had that same kind of mentality, he was concerned about those that was being brutalized and mistreated, and countering injustice and the brutality and all of those things were taking place, and to me that was a critical part of why he was in Birmingham, was a critical part of how he responded to his naysayers and, by the way, this is a rally occasion that he would take time to do that. So I think he pointed out in there that, in my opinion, that the reason I'm doing this is because you guys should know better. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You're a.
Speaker 2:Christian brother and fellow clergyman, you should know better than what you're doing. I would expect this. He didn't say this, but my Nettie Winters very nervous. I would expect this from Bull Connor. I don't expect this from you. All Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Austin, one of the interesting things, as I reflect on this letter, a couple of things. One that the letter comes from Kings, to leave a defining mark, so to speak, and what I mean by that is they are in Birmingham, precisely because Birmingham is known as the most segregated.
Speaker 2:Thoroughly segregated.
Speaker 1:Right, as they wrote, thoroughly segregated city in America, and so they're there, because it's like we're gonna go to the place that has the most significant struggles with this issue and we're gonna leave an indelible imprint here and make a mark in this place. So one of the reasons why he's in Birmingham is because of that also. I see your mind spinning over there.
Speaker 3:And also, he was invited. He was invited. He didn't show up without an invitation, he was invited. So you know, he was organizing, heading up, facilitating, leading something called the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, absolutely, so he was one of the primary officers. I guess the president was it? I forgot his Sure, sure, I forgot his proper title.
Speaker 3:He was the president, he was the president, look at that, mr President. So he. But there was the local affiliate organization which was this Alabama Christian movement for human rights and they had him come in because they wanted to initiate something called a direct action program, which was a movement to kind of force the speed of negotiations. So when he was invited in 1963, he decided that they were going to do these direct action programs to force this negotiation in the spring, so they were going to do it right after an election, but on Good Friday, so right before Easter. So obviously.
Speaker 1:How profound is that? Yeah, very profound. How profound is that in terms of this sacrificial act, where everybody has prepared their hearts and minds that, hey, we're going to have to bite the bullet, so to speak, on this and some of us may be in jail, some of us may be brutalized Exactly. Exactly, and we're going to take that action on the day in which we reflect on the crucifixion and sacrifice of Christ.
Speaker 3:I think that's significant, and especially since they had very good legal warning that they were probably going to end up in jail Absolutely If those are at least the leaders, the people who were facilitating it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely A week before.
Speaker 3:Because Bull Connor put an injunction on the entire deal, so obviously saying I don't want to negotiate Absolutely.
Speaker 1:They've already received state approval here. If you take these actions, you're going to jail. It's a done deal.
Speaker 3:And part of the letter. So he did the act. When he was told I guess told not to by the authority said I'm going to do this anyways, even though it was a state court. So it wasn't just the local county court, it was the state court that called this behavior into question.
Speaker 1:And he was urged not just keeping mind. It wasn't just simply local courts, state courts, but it was even counterparts in terms of there were black clergy who were a little hesitant. There was obviously white clergy.
Speaker 3:White clergy was very Even what is called the moderate whites, absolutely so.
Speaker 1:That's what the letter is addressed to, but even family members, right In terms of just like the hesitation, because we know the end game of this act if you guys proceed with these demonstrations, we know there's going to be jail time and so there was a sense in which and there was a sense in which King was given an opportunity to leave prior to the demonstration, but he chose to stay because he did not want to see, he did not want to see a group of people going to jail after he was given an out to leave and him not being with that group of people. That'd be like abandoning a ship, wouldn't it?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, exactly Absolutely.
Speaker 3:So he lands in jail and he realizes that there's going to be a massive, what we would call a disinformation campaign in today's age. I don't know what they would have called it in the 19th century 1960s.
Speaker 1:Sure Lies, maybe just ride out. I was about to say just flat out lies Just flat out lies Let us call it lies in 1960s.
Speaker 3:Well, our generation dresses things up to be all neat like disinformation campaign, and then he's just like oh, they're just lies.
Speaker 2:They were calling. They were calling lies in a smear campaign. Lying what are you talking about? Disinformation campaign?
Speaker 3:So the letter. And I think this is probably one of the primary reasons why King did it, because he was just like nobody else is going to articulate what happened in such a way that is going to dispel a lot of the misconceptions, because a person like Bull Connor is going to want to control the narrative, going to want to clamp down on what people are saying about it, the reasons why the motivations of the persons are going to paint it in the worst light possible. But with King's eloquence he's able to say well, we did all of this, our hands were forced. Because you're flat out lying by saying that any sort of positive steps were being taken and if any sort of positive steps even had been taken in the past while we're trying to have these negotiations, not enough. And it's been so reticent and such a lack of good faith, effort and even having dialogue around this has forced us to have this direct action program, because that's the only way we're actually going to get you at the table where we're going to make I mean talking about, I guess, the white leadership the you is the white leadership, and that's the only way we're going to get you to actually treat this as the level of a problem that it actually is.
Speaker 3:So he was, his hands were forced and that was the letter, was an apology. It was filling out the context it was. It was giving a wider voice to what happened. So that's the real, the real social impact of what the letter had in the context, that it was in the letter was a response to these eight white clergymen who wrote, interesting enough, a letter condemning the the good protest An open letter, a public letter, and the letter was entitled a call to unity, which is right, right, which is which is which is interesting because ironic the, the.
Speaker 1:The unity in which these clergymen were arguing for was a unity absent of, of real justice. It was, it was a. It was the kind of the kind of unity that lacks courage.
Speaker 2:What they was calling for was let everybody stand in their place.
Speaker 3:Let the courts work it out which who's in the courts?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, same people that gave the injunction. Yeah, so so it was. Like you know. King says here I'm too mad, I like this, you know? Are you in the letter?
Speaker 1:Are you in a letter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, let's, let's do this.
Speaker 1:Let's. Let's take a quick pause for a commercial break For our radio friends and then, when we come back, we're going to dig immediately into the contents of the letter here on episode 38 of Living Reconciled. Living Reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, Mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 645 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at Mission Mississippi dot org and click on the events button or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled, episode 38. I am with my prodigy and his friends, Dr Austin Hoyle.
Speaker 1:Nettie Winters. I'm your host, Brian Crawford. Nettie Winters, you want to get into the content of this letter?
Speaker 2:I do want to get into the context, but before I get into the content in the context of the letter. I just want to know what kind of freedom it's going to be next week. We've been stupendous.
Speaker 3:We've been stupendous.
Speaker 2:Incredible, incredible.
Speaker 3:We've been really really, really, really good Now whatever it is that we are now, man, can you say that again, pridiginous? I'm just going to pretend like I can't say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm going to just thank God for a friend like Brian Crawford.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I can't wait to get here so he can define us man. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean if you Wow, if you you know why are we going to be this weak If you need that much qualifications on your friendships, Brian, Now he's.
Speaker 2:I don't tell you, man, I think this guy's ditching you. You, you are genuinely I'm, you are genuinely I'm trying to share flowers.
Speaker 1:No, I'm giving out flowers and Austin's, austin's, rejecting all the flowers.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, it's just the one. That one word. I just don't like that one word man.
Speaker 2:I mean no, no, everything else has been great up until I don't even want to say it.
Speaker 3:No, no, the one he's using today.
Speaker 2:He don't like the word he won't even put out. I just don't like it, man. He won't even say it. Will you say it again? Prediginous.
Speaker 1:You don't even so so I have friends here, yeah, prediginous friends, that I can't wait to hear from, because you guys have unpacked this Birmingham jail letter from class, from the classroom, and and when you, when you've taught it, when you've read it and reflected, reflected on it in your own time, uh, netty, what is most notable to you, what sticks out to you?
Speaker 2:You know, what sticks out to me is that King approached this not with a attitude of let me put you so and so and so and so in your place, not with I can't believe that you all be impassioned, and minister would be, but listen to what he said. He said, but you know, after explaining why he don't address all the negative stuff that come after him, he said he'd spend all his time just doing it. But then he says but since I feel that you are men of genuine goodwill and your criticism are sincerely set for, I would like to answer your statement in what I hope would be patented and reasonable terms. I thought that was so genuine of him. And then he goes on immediately to debunk our today's term, austin. He went on to just let them know that that this thing of him being an outside agitator, no, no, no. He says listen, this local organization would my good friend, prodigious friend.
Speaker 2:Austin talked about the movement for human rights there in Alabama. He says we affiliate we, we we long stand money we until we're, we're closely related. And how? Then? I love the part where he says that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Yeah, but also he said listen, in Alabama, arkansas, mississippi, tennessee, louisiana, and the list goes on of how connected we are. So for someone to say in a nice way he said in a nice way For someone to say that we're outsiders in the United States, is is like. It's like he said, that is like uh, oxen motor on us I don't know how to even describe it he's. And so he sets this up in such a way that he again he reminds me so much of a possible writing. As he writes to them to is like he's writing to the local church in.
Speaker 1:Birmingham, alabama. He says we are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, right Tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly affects all in that like family and then like family, and then he says community, then he says this, then he says this, he puts, he puts it to bed and that he says never again can we afford to live with the narrow provincial outside right Adjected Narrow Prevent exactly. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then and then with the and. When he says injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, uh, what that does is brings it out of saying just like, oh, you don't even belong, to saying no, no, no, no, it is one of my most responsibilities to be here and to be doing this. I am very. I have every right to be here, absolutely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But, but at the same time he says this and describe this in such a way. This is the part that really is incredible, amazing to me. He says you don't know it yet, but this is all affecting you just as much as the people that I'm fighting for yes yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, you, you're like it, and the people from Tunnel would say you're like, you know, throwing the baby out with the wash. Here you cut your nose off to spite your faith because if this continued to exist, in fact, he insinuated that this is now affecting your economy. It's affecting the whole aspects of your community.
Speaker 1:Even if we weren't doing this, Nettie, when we commit acts of dehumanization, it's not just those who are on the receiving end of the act, but it's those who are perpetrating the acts, and it is those that are witnessing the acts that, all collectively, are being dehumanized, and so and so and so sometimes we see the dehumanization act and we think to ourselves that the only sufferer in that moment is the person in which that act has been, you know, lunged against or lunged at, rather right. But every party, those that stand by idly as well as those that are participating actively, are all in a continuous sliding down heels, so to speak, in our humanization.
Speaker 2:You know, I had a conversation earlier this week, last week or sometime, where someone we talked about did to have the persons that are dehumanized and another human being is more dehumanized themselves than the one that dehumanize them, because it takes a dehuman energy, regardless of what the Constitution or the law says about whether or not I'm a human or not. You know, paul wrote to some folks in Romans. He says you know, look around, there's a God. And you know that, as clergy especially, is that the image and likeness of God is in this person that you're calling a no human.
Speaker 1:No, notice, notice, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, no, no no, I was just going to say that. You know, sin enters into the world through the human heart.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And you know, the sin of racism is entering into the world through the hearts of who, in this case? Right the white persons who are attempting to, first of all, subjugate people and maintain that order, and but also the people who don't have the heart to stand up and speak out.
Speaker 2:Wait, it's just not limited to white folks now. It's just limited to the back heart of people, with what they call it.
Speaker 1:But he's talking about this particular aspect, in that particular aspect.
Speaker 3:Because this is this in this particular?
Speaker 2:moment, I got you.
Speaker 3:No, it's fine. It's fine, I know how people are at times. It's all good.
Speaker 2:I love you, man. I love you. I think you are an incredible friend.
Speaker 3:I think you're a prodigious person. I can't say it.
Speaker 3:I can't bring myself to saying it. I don't know why. I just can't bring myself to saying that. Why was I so OK? So, no, but the whole, but the whole point was in this particular aspect. Yeah, it's like that, because this is kind of I mean, I guess, collectively it's going into individual hearts, but really these, this type of sin, does reach into and expand across the white community, because I mean, it's, it sounds very reasonable to those kind of ears that, with, with ears that are detached from the eyes, they can see what is happening. Some of these, some of the words that the moderates are saying, that the, that you know that letter that the, the white clergy wrote that that called the unity, yeah, that that makes sense. If, if, if you don't have the eyes to see the, the, the, the, the wrong, that is really being happening to this point and into the desperation to that point.
Speaker 1:To that point, hold on, hold on, hold your horses. To that point you deployed the demonstrations that are presently taking place in Birmingham. King writes but I am sorry that your statement did not express express a similar concern for the conditions that brought the demonstrations into being.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love that, exactly, I love exactly, and so, and so here it is. This is when we talk about. What is the impact when we are dehumanizing others, right Is we are becoming desensitized. Our eyes and our ears are becoming desensitized to humanity and to just what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God. And so, therefore, you have the clergymen, who are in uproar, people that should know, people that read their Bibles and that should know and that teach their Bibles right, and that or that teach Bibles to teach Bible to others. They are in an uproar about protests in a downtown area that says you cannot use the same water fountains, you cannot shop in the same stores, or you, or there are all sorts of provisions that make sure that you are reminded that you are not like us, right?
Speaker 1:And there is all sorts of economic impact that comes with that, and they are in an uproar, that people are standing and and demonstrating in light of those injustices versus being in uproar over the actual Injustice. And why is that Go ahead?
Speaker 3:I was about to answer. Go ahead, because they value order above everything else. Absolutely, absolutely Okay, sorry.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no, no. I thought I was going to have to get a lot of ticket to get in here.
Speaker 1:Listen, we got, we got two jump rows. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just jump in, you, just jump in you know, on that same note as you were talking about earlier, about the reason he was there and he was talking about the point.
Speaker 2:He says listen, and another part is that he says about. He was comparing Mr Boutwell with Mr Connors and and, and he says that, but you know, talking about boatway. He said but he will not see this without pressure from the devotees of civil rights. In other words, he was against the mass demonstration thing. And then he says my friends it's interesting, we've been talking about friends, yeah, had, these people are debunking him and what he says to them.
Speaker 2:My friends talking to say they say clergy wrote this crazy letter. My friends, I must say to you that we have not made a single gang in civil rights without determined legal and nonviolent pressure. History is a long and tragic story of the fact that privileged groups seldom give up their privileges through voluntarily. Voluntarily, individual may be more light and volunteer to give up their unjust posture, but as a rat hole. But as Reinhold Nibar was reminded of us, groups are more moral than individuals. So we know that from our experience. He says, we know that through painful experience, that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor. Listen to what he said it must be demanded by the oppressed. In other words, if I would follow you all's logic, we'd never get there.
Speaker 1:Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's hard to shake any group from the comfort of power.
Speaker 3:Because group doesn't do. They don't do that. Naturally, we're designed to have defense mechanisms in place that resists disorder, and I think that's a significant part of that, at least for those who were just like yeah, I could see myself living in a society that's desegregated, but in order to have that, we would have to have such a tremendous amount of disorder in order to get there, in order to sustain that. I don't know if it's worth it, and that's probably a lot about that's a lot of what you say.
Speaker 2:That's a lot about what's happening. That's a lot of what you say. That's back in the 60s.
Speaker 3:That's even now.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, you know, when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s I used to hear and King mentioned something here but I used to hear wait until the old crowd dies off. And King's make that point and hear about wait he says so familiar I've heard it so long what it really means never.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We got a lot to unpack here, and so let me take a quick pause for our podcast listeners and let me plug this podcast for our radio listeners. Living Reconciled is not just a radio episode For those of you who are listening, for those of you listening on the AM dial or FM dial, wherever you may be, but Living Reconciled is a podcast, and so we want to encourage you to go out and listen to it, where you will hear the rest of this episode, where we are unpacking this incredible letter written by Dr Martin Luther King back in 1963. And so join us on any podcast app. Living Reconciled is where you search and you will find us and look for episode 38, where we will continue this discussion. Until then, radio listeners, we're signing off, saying God bless.
Speaker 2:God bless, god bless.
Speaker 1:Living Reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6.45 AM, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 AM and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 AM. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at missionmissississipiorg and click on the Events button or call us at 601-353-6477. Hey, thanks again for joining us on episode 38, living Reconciled. Brian Crawford here, your host, and I'm with my good friends, co-host and prodigious characters, austin Hoyle, nettie Winters.
Speaker 2:I think some light coming on that prodigious. Now Austin, you think you're a good.
Speaker 3:How do you spell that?
Speaker 1:You get there man, you at least, he's not interested, he's not interested.
Speaker 2:He's interested there.
Speaker 1:DI, so you should already see where it's going. P-r-o-d-i-g Prodigies Prediginess.
Speaker 3:Prediginess yeah, because there's.
Speaker 1:Root-word prodigies.
Speaker 2:You don't see where this is going. It's just a problem, Anyway. Anyway, for those of you it's just a Living Reconciled. A podcast or just an English lesson Are you mixing prodiginess up with prodigious.
Speaker 3:I'm questioning how you're using that word, because I don't. It is prodigious. That's the reason why I didn't like it. Why did I say prodiginess?
Speaker 2:Because I knew it was being done wrongly.
Speaker 3:Oh, I called you man.
Speaker 1:You got me, I love you. You got me, man Done wrongly Prodigious.
Speaker 3:Unfortunately, all I get is Curse it. All I get is Brian's.
Speaker 1:Trying to hide the word, and there it is Brian's disdain for the next week.
Speaker 3:Because I totally I'm sorry. You know what. You can cut this out. We can just start, no, no it's there, man.
Speaker 1:It lives in infamy for me. Well, I feel bad, now Predigious.
Speaker 3:I'm going to start using prodigious now Predigious yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I feel better about it. Yeah, now you feel better about it. I feel really good about it.
Speaker 3:You know why. We wouldn't have gotten to this point unless I pushed you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. That's true, my prodigious friends Austin, Hoyle, Nettie Winners I'm a little bummed out.
Speaker 3:Which means extraordinary, of high value. It does Prodigy, Prodigy. Well, prodigy, I was thinking. Are we really prodigy friends? Though that's the part I couldn't reckon with.
Speaker 2:I have to give thumbs up to our good friend what's the word now? Predigious, predigious, predigious friend Austin for doing his research and calling me he done. Get out man. That's the power of Google these days. Literature major. And then, I was about to say he's done the literature stuff and so yeah, that's the power.
Speaker 1:It was a quick search, man, and I apologize man, I looked at it fast and then, eh, anyway, all right, so back to the letter of Dr King wrote.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's in there, he just blew it off just like that.
Speaker 3:He's a smart guy. He'll do better next week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I got you coming next week. I got you coming next week. You better do better research.
Speaker 2:I got you coming On High, good or Free?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll do my own research next week.
Speaker 3:Just so you know, my intuition will kick in and I was like I don't feel right about that word. Yeah, you know you got to do it, I'll know.
Speaker 1:Nettie Winters, austin Hoyle. Here's an interesting thing that stands out to me in this particular moment is that there is also an emergence of discontent, and King kind of highlights this emergence of discontent and he identifies the black nationalist as basically saying hey, listen, enough of this, love your enemies. Peaceful, this peaceful that it's time to get a little bit more aggressive, to take back what we A little bit. Yeah, to take back what's rightfully ours.
Speaker 2:Quote on quote I think they want to go to a revolution man. They want to know a little bit Right.
Speaker 1:And so King has in. The King finds himself in the middle, right he. On one side he has, you know, bull Connor and many of the folks on that side that are pushing hard and saying that your rights are not of no concern to us, right, and then on the other side he has more of the black nationalist movement that's saying not only are our rights of great concern to us, but we are going to start punching people in the face if we don't get them A little bit more than just punch people in the face.
Speaker 3:Right, right, right, right, right. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:But we're gonna resort to violence in order to get them. And so you have violence on both sides of King, and King is trying to hold this middle ground that says no, it is important that these rights are received, but we cannot go after those rights through violent means. Talk to me a little bit about that as you reflect on King and his approach, and how his approach was receiving pushback from all sides.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm looking at his direct action campaign. It seems that that is something you know. It's almost like, I guess, taking the tension with some of the black nationalists who are wanting to see enacted. It seems that King is kind of almost put into the corner of having to do something right, not just have talks, not just have negotiations, but to really do something, to make something happen, to actually show that, so that results can be had. And in a lot of ways, because that's why I can see a lot of people probably have that significant level of unrest because of that. But then we also see, if you do resort to a certain level of violence I mean, think about a lot of the white community would have clamped down even harder.
Speaker 1:Exactly because what does violence do? It begins violence.
Speaker 3:Because we talked I think it was, as yesterday was, when we were talking about that book Cast. We were talking about how, after the Civil War, you had a lot of the whites who were blaming, I guess, the now former slaves entering into more of a sharecropping place.
Speaker 1:And into the Pulse Civil War, the Reconstruction, yeah, Pulse Civil War.
Speaker 3:Reconstruction era, because you know, places like Mississippi and in the South that was kind of the economic epicenter of the United States in the 19th century was now downgraded economically significantly.
Speaker 3:So a lot of the whites at the time took it out on the former slaves and you can see that if you even have one group like the black nationalist I can even see this is kind of probably started the tension, the dilemma that's going on in King's heart. He's thinking well, you know we could just allow the violence, but no, you really can't, because think about how much worse that would be for the overall population. So it would harden even more hearts and that's even terrible to have to think about that because it's like, oh no, we don't want to harden the hearts of the white people even more, we want to soften their hearts. So how is it that you enact practices that are going to soften these people's hearts? They're going to get the ones who can see themselves living in the type of desegregated society but they're just too scared to do it. How can we convince them to come to the table to negotiate? What type of actions can we have that are going to kind of force that conversation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he says someone. In the latter part of this letter he says you spoke of our activity in Birmingham as an extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I started thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency Made up of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, have been so completely drained of self-respect and a sense of somebodiness that they have adjusted to segregation, and, on the other hand, of a few Negroes in the middle class who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because at points they profit by segregation, have unconsciously become insensitive to the problems of the masses.
Speaker 1:Now he turns his attention to the other side of this group. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred and comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various Black nationalist groups that are springing up over the nation. This movement is nourished by the contemporary frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination. It is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity and who have concluded that the white man is an incurable devil. I have tried to stand between these two forces, saying that we need not follow the do-nothing-ism of the complacent or the hatred and despair of the Black nationalist. There is a more excellent way, one of love and nonviolent protests. I'm grateful to God that through the Negro Church, the dimension of nonviolence entered our struggle. So King sees himself like we talked about in the middle of these two forces.
Speaker 1:And not just in terms of the two forces that exist in white community, but the two forces that exist in the Black community of complacency and then bitterness that festers into violence.
Speaker 3:Well, the aspect about King's writing if you read the whole letter is he's taking all of the different perspectives and points of view and actions. He's really focused on actions that any of these groups could take, including understanding that he doesn't lump all white people Absolutely. He understands that there are different white people at different places that would react differently to different sort of tactics. He's really going for those hearts of those persons Like he wants to see the ministers stand up and speak out.
Speaker 1:The more moderate he wants to see, the moderates he wants to see those people.
Speaker 3:He wants to see the whites, who can possibly see themselves being a part of a society that's desegregated, but they're just too scared to do that Right. But he's also taken that into the tension of all of the different sociological factors and perspectives and places where people will be. And, as we know, it's not just well, this is this person's intellectual perspective. It's tied into livelihood, it's tied into relationships as well, because he is outside the community. So a part of it is both the whites and the blacks. They have their certain relationships and there's that tension that they're trying to do. So I mean we see that any toppling of the order exasperates the tension even worse.
Speaker 3:So I mean, it's almost like a scalpel that he's going into the situation. He's not a bull in a china shop Although I think someone like Bull Connor would say he's being a bull in a china shop but he's really operating in this mode very intentionally, incredibly, very deliberately, very surgically, has the end goal in mind throughout.
Speaker 2:So you know King articulated early in his letter about again, about why he was there and what the objective was. First he said to in order to clearly understand how things work. He said you know we have this four basic steps to a nonviolent campaign. He's the number one we collect our facts and determine whether or not injustice are live. And of course, you know he says when you look at Birmingham, it's the most thirdly segregated city in the United States. And then he then he said number two we negotiate. And then he says the people here in Birmingham, the black community, the Negro community he's put it in good faith they have attempted to negotiate with the leaders here and they would not even do any good faith negotiations. And he says that we actually had an audience with the merchants and so forth and they promised that they would take down the segregation sign, the symbols and things that you talked about, which they never do yet.
Speaker 2:Right and then he says that the third part of this is self purification. In other words, we know that we're going to be brutalized. We're going to beat a tear gas, fire hose, dogs, the whole shot of whatever drug into the paddy wagons and put in jail. He said we know we're going to do that, so we do a self purification and prepare ourselves for this. And if you were determined that you really couldn't do this, you need to find another place other than on the front lines to work in the movement.
Speaker 2:And then, third, he calls a direct action which we've been talking about. I mean some kind of demonstration peacefully demonstration of peacefully protests as we call it today. But I understand that a lot went into this. You all talked about it earlier, about how the strategy to come there and when it was actually executed and all that. Those things were in there.
Speaker 2:But when I was reading further into the letter I found this what he says he says to this clarity. He said you expressed a great deal of anxiety over our willingness to break laws. This is certainly a legitimate concern, since we so diligently urge people to obey the Supreme Court's decision of 1954, outlawing segregation in public school. It is rather strange and prodidical, doxical to find us consciously breaking law One. We may well ask how can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others? The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws. There are just and there are unjust laws.
Speaker 2:And so he goes on. He said now what have you guys Y'all upset about us breaking laws? This is in 1963. That was a law passed in 1954 to say all what you're doing is illegal. And you gonna talk to me about breaking a law. Come on, guys, let's you know. I try. It's almost as if he is toying with him in terms of how ridiculous and how abrasional you can be to challenge me and what I'm doing, because you not only are you not obeying the law of the land, you are brutalizing the people that the law would apply to in terms of being treated equally in the sight of God.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:He says we've been prevented from our God giving rights for 300 and some years, and you gonna talk to me about breaking laws and things. So we need to understand that when King as Austin alluded to earlier is that when King wrote this man, he left no stone unturned.
Speaker 1:Right man, he dug in. He dug in, he knew the context, he knew Well he said, jail gave him a lot of time to think it right, well, he was doing.
Speaker 3:I mean Bonhoeffer Paul, some heen Paul of the wrote some great letters in jail.
Speaker 2:He says like Paul. I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call. In other words, I'm here because God called me here. I'm not here, really, because I'm affiliated with the local chapter.
Speaker 1:I'm really here Ultimately.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, my call is here because God has me here, and if anyone should understand this, it should be Christians.
Speaker 1:It should be clergy.
Speaker 2:It should be. Christian leaders should understand anything. So he went through this thing and talked about the positions that he stood in between the two until he gave new meaning to when Paul said I'm interested too. I said Paul was caught to him through heaven and earth. He is caught between two fashions that want to take him out.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And then another, another crowd is standing around like does it take all this?
Speaker 1:Right, right, right. Does it take all this? Does it take all this?
Speaker 3:King's just like well, hey, god's telling me to do this and I would love to attend to say so what's God telling you to do? You know, it's just like I mean apply that. It's like what does God really want you to do in this?
Speaker 2:I just want to make this last point about what impressed me. He says in the letter like it's on page 294 in my book, but anyway, I know it doesn't make any sense. He says, of course, there is nothing new about this kind of civil disobedience. It was similar in the refusal of Shatrat, meshach and a bendigo to obey the laws of nepotism because the higher moral law was involved.
Speaker 2:In other words, he said, even before he got this, he talked about these man made code laws that are ingest because they don't line up with the moral law of the God given law. And so we must understand that. When people said that people are protesting or other things are breaking the law, well, the very fact what brought them to this point, he make that point so clear. He said it gives the Negro no alternative except to go this way. We've tried negotiations, we've tried to do this thing the right way, we've followed your laws, we've gone to your court, and yet we don't get a fair deal when we go to the court because you just itching an injunction against us exercising the right that we have as citizens of the United States of America. It is man I love this letter.
Speaker 1:It's a masterful letter.
Speaker 1:It's a masterful letter in the latter part, closing the letter out, third paragraph from the end.
Speaker 1:One of the things he says is I wish you had commended the Negro demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer and their amazing discipline in the midst of the most inhuman provocation.
Speaker 1:One day, the South will recognize its real heroes. They will be the James Merediths, courageously and with a majestic sense of purpose, facing jeering and hostile mobs in the agonizing loneliness that characterizes the life of the pioneer. They will be the old, oppressed, battered Negro woman symbolized in a 17 72 year old woman of Montgomery, alabama, who rose up with a sense of dignity and, with her people, decided not to ride the segregated buses and responded to one who inquired about her tiredness with ungrammatical profundity my feet is tired, but my soul is rested. They will be young high school and college students, young ministers of the gospel and a host of their elders, courageously and non violently sitting in at lunch counters and willingly going to jail for conscious sake. One day the South will know that when these disinherited children of God sat down at lunch counters, they were in reality standing up for the best in the American dream and the most sacred values in our Judeo Christian heritage.
Speaker 2:He closes this out, and I find these kinds of statements so amazing. He says I hope this letter finds you strong in the faith, and that's almost like it's just. I also hope that circumstances will soon make it possible for me to meet.
Speaker 2:You talk about meeting and having a discussion on it he said, I hope that we would meet each of you not as an insegregationist or a civil right leader, but as a fellow clergyman and a Christian brother. Let us all hope that the dark clouds of racial prejudice will soon pass away and a deep fog of misunderstanding will be lifted from our fear trenched communities and, in some not too distant tomorrow, the radiant star of love and brotherhood will shine over our great nation with all of their simulating, stimulating beauty. Yours, for the cause of peace and brotherhood. This brother had it going on.
Speaker 3:I know, I know Just rhetorically. It is one of the greatest letters written. Rhetorically speaking I mean even in its context it's brilliant but rhetorically Agree.
Speaker 1:This has been incredible. We are greatly honored to even have the space, the moment, the freedom, as two black men and a white man sitting on a podcast and having this conversation in 2023.
Speaker 3:And having fun doing it and having fun doing it. This is really a prodigious moment.
Speaker 1:This is a prodigious moment. This is a prodigious moment. This is a prodigious moment. I thought we were beyond that. Brian Crawford, Austin Hoyle, neti winners signing off, saying God bless, god bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening. So far, we've tasted the Jewish vibe.