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Brian and Austin take a look at Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) and their current role in the workplace and university. Our discussion weaves through the spectrum of viewpoints, looking at the goals and both the potential benefits and pitfalls.
The guys close the episode advocating for a compassionate conversation within the Christian community, recognizing that embracing diverse opinions and relationships is instrumental in living out the gospel. Take a listen and don't forget to like, share, and subscribe!
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
Brian and Austin take a look at Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) and their current role in the workplace and university. Our discussion weaves through the spectrum of viewpoints, looking at the goals and both the potential benefits and pitfalls.
The guys close the episode advocating for a compassionate conversation within the Christian community, recognizing that embracing diverse opinions and relationships is instrumental in living out the gospel. Take a listen and don't forget to like, share, and subscribe!
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on this episode of Living Reconciled, episode 40. I am your host, brian Crawford, with my really, really, really, really, really really really really really good, good good friend Austin Hoyle, hey how y'all doing. It's good to have you on.
Speaker 2:It's really good to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, it's great, great to be here man Great to be here. Nettie Winters is not here again Again. Yeah, hopefully he'll be back next week, but for those of you all who are with us, we thank you for joining us on episode 40.
Speaker 2:40?. That's right, Living Reconciled yeah we had Scott for 39 last year or last week. Last week, yeah last week I felt like a year ago. It's been a long week.
Speaker 1:Long weeks. That's right. That's right. Hey, I want to give a special thanks to our sponsors, nissan Saint Dominic Hospital at the Sanergy Regents Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, christian Life Church, ms Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward and Ms Ann Winters. Thank you so much for all that you do. It's because of what you do that we're able to do what we do, and today what we are doing is discussing a very controversial topic DEI. I have been seeing in the news a lot Well, first DEI Diversity, equity Inclusion.
Speaker 1:Training Diversity Equity Inclusion Right Diversity Equity Inclusion.
Speaker 2:We've got programs. We've got an erty guy over here who likes to stick with the Engineering.
Speaker 1:Research Development Center for those who don't know that acronym. But yeah, DEI Diversity, Equity and Inclusion it is a hot topic in a lot of circles. It is a politically charged topic these days. We have seen recently in a lot of articles. If you grab a paper, you'll see a lot of articles that saying corporations are trying to figure out what to do with this concept, with this program called DEI. You'll see states that are pulling back on DEI efforts and initiatives, and so we want to spend a little time just kind of talking about DEI from a Mission Mississippi perspective.
Speaker 1:You guys know that we always say that we aren't necessarily activists, but we're people that like to get all the activists to the table to have a conversation, and so, of course, naturally, you can expect us to have a conversation that's going to approach this from different angles and exploring it from different sides, and that's what we'll do today is explore this ideal and this concept of DEI, because you got pro DEI, you got anti DEI and you got everybody in between, which I suspect is probably a lot of us trying to figure out what to do with all of this. So let me turn my attention first to you, Austin, and ask the question. First of all, if there is a way that you can kind of give a definition, so to speak, or a goal what's the goal? If you were to ask the proponents of a DEI what their goal is, what would you hear from them? What will we expect to hear from?
Speaker 2:them. I think, first and foremost, two kind of particular areas of time would be brought up. First, the 1960s. The moments traced back to the civil rights movements in the 1960s, where we have the fight for equality and justice is showing that we need to have diversity and inclusion across all sectors of our society. So all sectors of society include church, government organizations, nonprofits, businesses, schools, both K through 12, and university settings I mean pretty much any time people are in the public and they need to engage somehow together, they need to work with one another in some significant capacity and they would say that you would need to be able to have and be able to build that relationship for diversity and inclusion, to have that sense of unity they want people to be united.
Speaker 2:Another era of time that I think would probably be brought up is kind of the 1990s, early 2000s, where there was a significant shift in the prevalence of DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, trainings being across the corporate landscape, which in the corporate landscape that also originated in universities, k through 12 institutions, workplaces, nonprofits, governmental organizations have also had this significant focus and it originated as not nearly a moral imperative.
Speaker 2:It's not just put into ethical considerations but also a lot of times they realize you know we got a diverse group of people who are coming and they have a common goal, such as to say, you work for a parks and recreation organization for a city or the Parks and Recreation Department for a city, and we have all these people who need, who are working towards the common goal of creating good parks and recreation for all the people in Jackson. They have to work together. Their common goal is to have wonderful parks where people can go forward and congregate and to have a good place outside. But they need to also be able to work with one another for the common goal. We need to minimize a lot of the personal friction intention that's going to happen. So it became in the 1990s and early 2000s it was definitely part of a business strategy and the rationale for that was very clear that you have diverse teams bring about diverse perspectives. They're able to lead to more innovative solutions.
Speaker 1:They can have better decision making.
Speaker 2:So that's what I would think would be some of the reasons why DEI would have started as the justification. So you have all of these companies that begin to implement all of these various programs.
Speaker 1:So you've got a history component in terms of the historical struggles that we faced, as it relates to a country racially or ethnically Going back to slavery, reconstruction, jim Crow, and so there's a history component to DEI in terms of addressing the imbalance that was created historically. But then there's also, like you said, a strategic component.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that public interest. The public is interested in people working together, absolutely Right, so that's the best. The DEI institutes those categories.
Speaker 1:Where do you see when you think about DEI in terms of programs and institutions, in terms of training? Give me one component that you would say, for the most part, most people would nod their head and agree and say, yes, dei gets it right here.
Speaker 2:Just to have it, so that you're fostering a community as the people, when they go to their workplace, for example, that they are experiencing a place that is not a toxic place to work Right, they can go and they can relatively especially if they're different than other people, whatever minority status they might have that they can go and they can know that there's going to be some type of safe aspect to it. I would say that's probably one of the things that people would want to see is that people feel comfortable in walking into different settings when, for example, they are parks and recreations and they have that other goal in mind, and that everybody can kind of come in all the personal stuff that usually causes tension and frictions oftentimes. A good DEI program would have the capacity to eliminate some of those so that everybody can then focus on the goal at hand. For me, that would be the number one thing that I would say would be the goal of a good DEI program.
Speaker 1:I would say as we think about DEI in terms of where we find benefit in a DEI program is allowing space and room for voices to be heard All the voices that are represented in a community, that are represented in a city, that are represented in a region, that are represented in a workforce, that they have the space in the room to be heard.
Speaker 1:In the best of a program like this, we're giving space and room to see and acknowledge our bias. When it's at play that everyone is giving room and space to see and acknowledge their bias. Through the give and take and through the push of bringing this diverse workforce together, not only are we giving space to recognize and see biases in others, but we're also giving space to have our own biases unveiled. I think in the best iteration or the best version of this, you're allowed to see when what seems clear to you in an audience where people that look like you, think like you, act like you, what seems clear to you all of a sudden becomes a little bit more nuanced and a little bit more complicated once you get in the room with other people that don't look like you think like you act like you.
Speaker 1:I think in the best version of the, you're creating space for that kind of unveiling to happen.
Speaker 2:I like how you're talking about that space, giving a space for that unveiling to happen. Part of that is room for disagreement. I think that in order to get there, the good DI program will have room for disagreement. We'll be able to have the capacity for people to be able to speak, but also for people to be able to listen. Everybody who's part of the program would develop the listening capacity to be able to do well in whatever setting they're trying to do well in.
Speaker 2:I would say DEI, because usually it's attached to common public areas such as universities, corporations, governmental organizations, anything like that. A cherry on top would be that authentic relationships are created. But I don't think that's necessarily the goal of DEI is to create authentic relationships. The goal of DEI is for people to work together in whatever public setting that they are, public common setting that they have. But the cherry on top with the DEI program has done so well that their shields are brought down and they can really be honest. They can disagree with one another and not have to worry that their relationships are going to suffer or that their work is going to suffer.
Speaker 2:I'm just imagining what I would think that the qualities of what a good DI program would do that. Any time you bring a diverse group of people together and you try to get them to work towards a common goal, you're going to have to have growing pains. Every relationship requires that. Even if a relationship doesn't necessarily go into a friend relationship or a marriage relationship something that intimate a work relationship can be just as intimate and can be just as necessary to be able to hash out some of the differences we have so you can come to a place where people can have enough of a relationship that they can get the job done. That's what DEI does. I mean that's different than what we in the mission Mississippi does with the focus on church because our focus is relationships.
Speaker 2:We want people to have those types of godly relationships with one another where they are friends.
Speaker 1:It's a mandate.
Speaker 2:They are fellow believers in Christ which is more than just working together for a common goal. Mission Mississippi yes, we incorporate some of what we think is the ideal, best DEI material, but we're very different Because DEI really is. We're just going to teach you how to be together in a common setting.
Speaker 1:I want to dive a little bit more into some of the critiques of the DEI, particularly some of the critiques that we're hearing in popular culture. What I want to do first is take a quick pause and then we will come back and discuss this more. On episode 40 of Living Reconciled Living Reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches, mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6.45 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at MissionMississippiorg and click on the events button or call us at 601-353-6477. Hey, thanks again for joining us.
Speaker 1:On episode 40 of Living Reconciled. I am your host, brian Crawford, with my co-host, and really, really, really good friend.
Speaker 2:Austin Hoyle. Oh well, thank you, I'm excited to be coming back from the break. Yeah, my diverse friend, my diverse friend.
Speaker 1:Yes, Austin.
Speaker 2:Hoyle, I was about to joke in my other diversity hire Mission Mississippi my diverse friend, austin Hoyle, on episode 40 of Living Reconciled.
Speaker 1:We're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion. That's a very controversial topic these days and a lot of, a lot of stories, a lot of articles about how corporations are wrestling with this topic, this idea, this understanding of how we handle matters, diversity in the workplace and institutions. There's a lot of commotion, even at the state level in some states regarding DEI, so we're trying to parse this out and make some sense of it. On the other side of the break, austin, we were talking a little bit about what we believe to be some of the noble goals of a DEI program and its best iteration right, what we see that we can pull from and glean from.
Speaker 1:I want to talk a little bit about what some of the critiques are that we're seeing as it relates to DEI and, of course, I do want to caveat this by saying that there are incredible people in our state and across our state and across our region and across our country that are probably in these spaces and that they're doing great work, honest work. They're seeking to create a workforce that addresses the imbalances of our history. They're seeking to create a workforce that has the best of all of us represented at the table so that people can have their voices heard from these different backgrounds and different experiences, right? So, as we address these critiques, we are addressing them with the understanding that that does exist, right. So, with that caveat in place, could you share a little bit, like we highlighted one good quality? Could you highlight a critique that you see Taking surface as it relates to DEI?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, and I like how we approached it we're talking about what the ideal for DEI is, absolutely yes, you know, it's almost like problem solution in a way. So it's like I think we you and I definitely agree, and I think Mission Mississippi would even agree that you know, there's a diagnosis of the problem, yes, which is oftentimes we don't relate well with one another.
Speaker 2:We need to have better, deeper relationships. Yes, now I think and this is you know, once again I want to jump in that caveat you're doing because we do have people who partner with us and just who, I believe, are laboring Absolutely. To make sure that their relationships and their organizations and corporations are as good and as strong as there possibly can be Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But with that there's current critics of DEI. They can argue and this is some of the arguments that I've heard and once again, I don't necessarily articulate these arguments in the same way I and when I do hear an argument, when I do hear somebody say something, even if I don't automatically get the logic of it, I respect the fact that it's coming from somewhere and I want to listen to that and I want to know why it's coming from there, because it may prove it, may show me a deeper proof or deeper truth than I had before.
Speaker 2:You know some of the DEI critiques could be. You know they could say it's reverse discrimination A lot of the times. I mean, I'm a white dude working in a very racially diverse setting, so it's just like sometimes it can, it can feel when you have somebody from a different culture talking about white culture, I can say I don't. I don't know if I I agree with that, I don't know if I see that in my own culture, or sometimes I'm just like yeah, I definitely see that. So I can see aspects of DEI drawing people with a wide brush to the point where it feels like they're being discriminated against.
Speaker 2:Or one argument I've seen is that meritocracy argument that we're just, we're just going through the DEI program in order to create tokenistic, diverse hirings, which also goes into is DEI inherently a contra to meritocracy or merit based progress or merit based development of a person's career, Right? And another one is that there's such a culture of political correctness surrounding DEIs, to the point where you have such a focus on person's subjective feelings that it actually hinders the free speech of people, people to be able to truly express what's on their hearts in a certain matter. Or even, or even I find that, in order not to offend people, that we don't give ourselves and we don't allow ourselves to reason through that and to ask questions and to struggle with people, I think that can, that can be a tendency that I, that I that I hear a couple of times.
Speaker 1:Fortune. Fortune magazine Austin wrote a recent article entitled the anti DEI movement has gone from fringe to mainstream. Here's what that means for corporate America. It was written on an opinion article written by Joel Emerson. Joel Emerson is actually the founder and CEO of paradigm, a DEI nonprofit, so this is a person that spends their time in DEI space, working through it, thinking through it. She had this interesting quote she said during the pandemic, with a more captive national audience, many diversity and inclusion advocates have rightly pushed hard for change. In doing so, we haven't always left room for conversations, questions or nuance. Instead, we have, in some instances, adopted the role of moral authority, positioning anyone who doesn't agree with our perspective, or perhaps simply doesn't understand it, as not just wrong but bad. As a result, many people who previously perceived themselves as egalitarian, on the side of progress and pro diversity became scared of being judged. In quote.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is that? Is that what you're, what you're getting at?
Speaker 2:That's what I'm, that's what I'm reading. Yeah, that's what I'm reading, that's what I'm seeing. I've read a good number of DEI training materials in my in my time, particularly just to just to help me become, you know, build my capacity for the work we're doing here at Mission Mississippi, because there is some, there is some crossover in the work that we do, in the work that DEI would do, and I would say, yeah, there is a tendency to go in that, to go in that area. Now, my personal temperament is such that I'm just going to listen and if and if and if people need to have a training that thing around me, if I was personally going to be a part of it, I would just listen and engage in the way that they would want me to engage More, more than likely, unless it was something that I was, that I felt very strongly about, that I needed to.
Speaker 1:To bring up a nuance but having a, but having, I guess, a program or training that is built in such a way where you're left with no other choice but to listen yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Definitely.
Speaker 1:And to not, and to not offer your thoughts, to not offer your opinion is going to create some friction.
Speaker 2:Exactly, Especially if it's done in a person's workplace and they're and they're thinking okay.
Speaker 2:So I'm going to have to Dapt even the inner thoughts of my mind if I, if I, if I disagree with you, know a Way that they want us to relate with others. If, for example, the, the DI material is asking me to take into consideration a person's subjective sense of their own feelings To the point where I'm in distress, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, that's, that's a problem. When DEI itself Causes significant distress in a person, that that that can be a problem. Now, also, I'm I'll say this as a pastor some, not all distress is bad distress Sometimes, and I've been a pastor of people and I'll tell you right now, some people need more distress in there.
Speaker 2:Agitation is good, agitation is good. So I'm not saying I'm not saying agitation isn't good. Absolutely, distress could be good, but but I'm talking about that type of unwarranted distress where we're actually perhaps Approaching a personal tyranny in that person's life. That that that in those instances it can, it can be problematic, yeah yeah, the quote.
Speaker 1:You know I mentioned that quote by Joel Emerson, founder of paradigm. She also says in that same article, austin, I thought was really good While DEI advocates should, shouldn't minimize the harm that words and actions can cause, making room for dialogue, leading with curiosity and recognizing that values align people may sometimes have difference of opinion are Important steps for engaging a wider audience. I think that's Incredibly important in this discussion Because I have noticed and if you guys haven't noticed, I am a black man, yes, so I certainly, certainly want us to make as much progress as we possibly can and I advocate for, for progress, for, for minorities. But I have noticed, even in my own experiences, that if there is a critique to be tossed over the fence at some of them, some of the more you know Some of the iterations of the I did, I've seen some of the versions of the I programs that I've seen is that it doesn't give that room For those opinions to be expressed.
Speaker 1:It doesn't give room for those thoughts to be expressed. You know, me and you, we've had some discussions about this, but I think we kind of live in this culture right now, where you are, we are caricatured in our thoughts and in our, in our opinions, right. So you have a caricature of what DEI is. You have a caricature of what of what anti DEI is, and everybody fits in one of those boxes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you have a, if you have a, if you have a ambition that the workforce should be equitable and that Equal opportunities should be made available to people of all types, people of all ethnicities, right people from all different backgrounds, then you are colored. You know some sort of raging Marxists.
Speaker 1:Right if now that you can be the same person, and if you have any thoughts and opinions on, or questions that are raised in terms of how a Program like a DEI is being implemented and you want to raise a question about hey, are we, are we tipping the scales a little bit too far here? Or in the sense that that people that look and fit a certain Pattern aren't even given room to speak, aren't we tipping the scales a little too far here? Then you're labeled a bigot, right?
Speaker 1:Right, right, right and so and so there's, there's these kind of boxes that we put people in and and, and we, and we don't allow room for nuance exactly like, for example, if people were listening to the first half of this Radio program they would say, oh man, austin's a Marxist if they were listening to the second half of this radio program like oh my gosh, austin's, austin's a bigot.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. I mean there's, there's, no, there's no way you can win. But I think you're a whole point about being having having those caricatures is really important because and and this is where DEI can go wrong- is when they have reasoned themselves into such abstractions.
Speaker 2:That's, every group they talk about is a caricature. Yeah, so that the black community there's the discussion of the black community becomes a caricature of what the black community really is, absolutely there. You know, there their caricature of what a white man is like, perhaps based on some real people who are white people, who really held opinions, but but, but. But. Just because I'm a white dude doesn't not mean I am anything like. You know all the other people out there. I'm not saying I'm not the good white people, but what I? What? What I'm saying is that I'm an individual, I'm unique.
Speaker 1:I have I have.
Speaker 2:I have been able to process nuance in a lot of ways that other people may may, may not have. So I may be able to approach some of this material and see weaknesses in material used, and so do I do I. Do I stay quiet right, not bring up weaknesses and material used, or do I try to say no, I'm gonna have a constructive dialogue.
Speaker 1:And risk being risk being called a big and even giving room for you to have that constructive dialogue and Even giving room for me to agree to disagree yeah, but at least giving you room to have that dialogue.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I have a wide bandwidth of what I can disagree with and in fact Brian. You probably don't know a lot of things I disagree with, simply because I'm just like me, it's not that important. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely hey, we got to take a quick pause For our podcasters, for our radio listeners. Let me share a bit of sad news. This is officially our last radio broadcast on WYAB. We are going full stream On the podcast side. But here's the great news for you you can go and you can subscribe to living reconciled on Apple, google, spotify, amazon, any podcast app that you can think of. We're probably there and you can search for living reconciled by Mission Mississippi and you can subscribe to this podcast. We will be here every week Continuing to have these dialogues in this discussion, but we had want to give a big shout out and a big thanks to our friends at WYAB. Through the years they have been great friends and of Mission Mississippi and we imagine that we will continue to be great friends of WYAB, and so we thank them for all of the support through the years that they have given us. We are beating farewell on this final podcast or final broadcast on WYAB. So I'm Brian Crawford, here with my friend, austin Hoyle, and we are signing off on WYAB for the last time saying God bless, god bless.
Speaker 1:Living reconciled is a work of Mission Mississippi, but it is not our only work. From days of dialogue and prayer meetings to consultation for schools, businesses and churches. Mission Mississippi is eager to help you, your team, your church and your community live reconciled Every month. Join us for our weekly prayer breakfasts on Tuesdays and Thursdays at 6.45 am, our bi-weekly statewide connection meetings on Fridays at 10 am and a focused time of prayer on the third Thursday of the month at 7 am. To get details on any of our upcoming events or to learn how you can invite us to your church, business or school, visit our website at MissionMississippiorg and click on the Events button or call us at 601-353-6477.
Speaker 1:Hey, thanks again for joining us on episode 40 of Living Reconciled. I'm Brian Crawford, your host, with my co-host and good friend, austin Hoyle. We're having a very, very intense discussion around an intense issue diversity, equity, inclusion, aka DEI. You see it in a lot of the newspapers these days. It's a hot topic item, hot button rather, and a lot of discussion, a lot of critiques, a lot of shouting, a lot of yelling and Austin and I were just.
Speaker 1:No, not on this podcast. Not on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I mean I could switch. I could flip a switch if you need me. To Brian no need, all right, good good, no need, thank you I don't like doing that, yeah, no need.
Speaker 1:But Austin and I are trying to have a sensible discussion around this issue and there's room certainly for celebration and for nodding of the intent and the goals.
Speaker 1:And we ourselves, Mission Mississippi, we exist obviously because we are pursuing some of those goals that even DEI would say that they're pursuing. And so we certainly nod and applaud and, at the same time, there's probably some room for critique. And so we've tried to take an opportunity, or tried to take this episode, to kind of put some of those both out there, the areas worthy of applause and the areas that we raise some concern. And so, Austin, one of those areas is the area of meritocracy, and we talked about, on the other side of the break, this idea that DEI is often critiqued because some would argue how do you get to merit base if you're approaching everything from the perspective of inclusion and diversity? How do you get to merit base? Right, that's going to be the argument for some people. There is also a side to this discussion that doesn't get talked about a whole lot, and that is the side in which merit in and of itself can at times be tied to diversity.
Speaker 2:Oh, exactly, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So talk to me a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, kind of in our brainstorming before the podcast and this is where this is coming from Brian or listeners, really Brian and I were talking about. You know, the hypothetical and this is an absolutely implausible scenario because it's absolutely not true, which is the reason why I feel comfortable saying it out loud is our hypothetical scenario. Let's say, both Brian and I were pastors and we are both applying for the same church. The church's unique needs are that it is large 150, 200 people. Both Brian and I with our capacity, we'd both be able to probably pastor a church of about that size if we really needed to.
Speaker 2:But let's say that, for one reason or another, this is the implausible area. I'm a better preacher than Brian is right and I can just walk in there and I've got the charisma that I need to have. I can wow the little old matriarchs and patriarchs of the church in such a way and I got all those kids hanging all over me. But the church is unique in that it is multicultural and that it is in a place that is really trying to reach the neighborhood and even though I which is not true, by the way I may be able to walk in in this hypothetical situation have more charisma reach better, which is not true in terms of the scenario.
Speaker 1:I didn't realize you were still on the preaching, is not true? I like to be able to think I'm just rubbing it in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm rubbing it in at this point and I'm like leaps and bounds better, but Brian's good.
Speaker 2:But Brian, in part of it is because of the lived experiences that he has had as a black man in this world and the experience he has had pastoring a multicultural church, before this hypothetical job application that we would have. If in that situation he may actually be the better person because he can lead better, he can understand where the people are coming from better, he can oh, that's called relating with the people in a deeper way. And you know, if he has those types of pastoral qualities about him and it goes directly into his experience as a black man, particularly his experience as a pastor, particularly his experience as a pastor, as a black pastor in a multicultural setting, he would be a better person for that job. Yeah, even if you know, one of the primary measures of pastoral success is how well we preach right, right, right. And in that particular hypothetical situation, his diversity would be considered merit, right. And that's what I think we're talking about, because you can apply that to a whole swath of different industries.
Speaker 1:Well, let's talk about not just the fact of you know relational engagement, which is kind of the example you used with the very, very gifted preaching of an Austin.
Speaker 2:Hoyle, thank you.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying enough because of my experience in multi ethnic ministry in this church, needing that experience. But let's take it to another, another example. Let's let's use for it, for example, a situation where you have this organization and this organization is made up of one particular type of person, gender, and their goal and desire is to reach another or wider audience of people, right, beyond that particular ethnicity, beyond that particular gender. Then all of a sudden it becomes a mandate, a requirement that you reach out to someone in that is beyond that particular gender and beyond that particular ethnicity, so that you can bring those experiences in Exactly. And even you know, in my former, in my former space, one of the things that you know we learned in leadership in my, in my former space, was that when you have a team that has a diversity of background, a diversity of experiences, then you make more room for the internal biases that exist to be addressed. Right, and we don't even realize that biases at play when we invite all the same people in the room, right, so we invite all the same people in the room that look at the world the same way, that think about the world in the same way, that address and interact with the world in the same way, then we don't even realize the biases that are, that are at play, because our shaping right, the way we've been shaped, doesn't allow us to see those biases Right. So we invite all the people in the room that don't think like you, that don't look like you, that don't act like you, that don't respond like the like you, that don't come from the same background as you, that they, they may bring a whole new set of biases. In fact they do bring a whole new set of biases.
Speaker 1:But now you have a wider spectrum of experience to view the world and with that wider spectrum you can actually begin to address real issues that are in the world. And what I've seen over and over again and this isn't the local church, right, this is in this is in corporate America but what I've seen over and over again is that as you are committed to widening the pool of people and the experiences that you bring into the room, all of a sudden the experience of the room broadens. And so you may have, you may have 10 engineers in the room and they've all been there for 10 years, they've all been doing their work for 10 years. But if you commit yourself to finding 10 good engineers that are of varying various backgrounds and different experiences. You are almost guaranteed to have a wider experience pool than just 10 engineers all of the same background in the room and that answer is why they should hire you.
Speaker 2:because I'm just focused on how awesome I look and how charismatic I am. You're focused on on on really bringing people together in that relationship, in that hypothetical Right. So that's that's why I think that's. That's that's important, because because you would be able to look at that and be able to see me able to to, to draw things out of people in such a way that that brings about those hard hitting dialogue, the needs to happen, the relationships and building the needs to happen.
Speaker 2:Because you are then actualizing something that is beyond the individual, where the whole team right can then work with one another, and that's that's, that's, that's the, that's the significant, that's, that's probably the, the, the other measure of what makes an effective pastor as well.
Speaker 1:You know there was, there was.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of good quotes in this article, by the way yeah, from Joel Joel Emerson in the fort fortune magazine, but one of the things she said as well that I thought stood out.
Speaker 1:She said instead of fighting over and over in acronym, we should recenter the conversation on the actual principles of diversity, equity and inclusion and appeal to people who believe in what those ideas represent. And, to that end, we must proactively explain what diversity, equity and inclusion work is and, even more importantly, what is not. It's not about categorizing people as either oppressors or oppressed based on their identities. It's not about punishing people for who they are or supporting certain groups to the detriment of others. Instead, diversity is about casting a wide talent net to find a more representative group of skilled candidates or students. I think that is incredibly important, austin, that we look to move the conversation away from just simply brand, because that's what happens in these kind of conversations. Dei has become a brand, just like CRT a year ago was a brand. You just put it's a big pot, it's just a big pot, and you just throw everything in that pot and then everything becomes DEI, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is unfortunate. It really is Because those things are really just. They're tools, absolutely. They're potentially helpful tools, absolutely. And they've been reduced in a lot of ways To just brands, to just brands.
Speaker 1:And so I think a more helpful way for us to have this dialogue is to instead of just kind of look at the brand itself and say, oh DEI, I hate it or love it right, is to actually look more at the principles in a DEI and pull one principle out at a time and say, hey, do we agree with this principle in DEI? Right, does DEI get this right? I think so many of our discussions are. You know, are you for DEI or are you against DEI?
Speaker 2:And that doesn't make any sense. That's too simplistic of a discussion. When you understand the nuances Absolutely, when you understand that that question is coming from a place of ignorance about what DEI is. It's just too simple of a question Say are you ford or against it? It's just, it doesn't no, no answer, you can't answer it, right, you just can't answer it. But we're trying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess we're trying very hard.
Speaker 2:We're trying very hard.
Speaker 1:But instead, I think a more sensible approach to this is to actually pull the principles out yes, and then you can pull on the table and to actually begin to have reasonable dialogue, open dialogue, dialogue that allows for push and pull, that allows for give and take, and to actually start talking about the different principles, right, exactly the historical implications, for example. What is it trying to accomplish? Let's talk a little bit about the things, the goals and the ends, and maybe there's five goals on the table and you agree with two and disagree with three, but that's far more progress than saying I love DEI and or I hate DEI.
Speaker 2:Is that exactly Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I would love to see more, you know, particularly Christians, because Christians, we're supposed to be wrestling with nuance, right, james 1, 19 tells us that we're supposed to be people that are quick, quick, quick to listen rather and slow to speak and slow to anger. We're supposed to be people that are wrestling wrestling with tension, wrestling with nuance. And so I would love for Christians to be more committed to kind of parsing these brands into actual ideas and putting those ideas on the table and discussing those ideas one by one, cause what we will find, austin, is that there is a ton of things that we agree on.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, Like just fundamentally who we are as people. Yes, I think that's, that's an important part, especially if you're in the Christian community. We agree that we're, we're made in the image of God and that, and that we need to be able to figure out how we can come together, not just so that we can live out the gospel together Well, actually no, so we can live out the gospel together.
Speaker 2:But, but, but not, not. Not just to work together is what I was trying to say, right, but so that the the, the truth of the gospel can really plant itself in our hearts, absolutely. So, yes, we, we absolutely have to, we have to have a concerted, intentional effort for, for dialogue and relationship building. Because if, if we just don't have that, we're just going to continue as a church how we are in the overall, overall universal body of Christ. That does feel very disconnected.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Just just like how we are as a society disconnected, Our churches are also disconnected, Absolutely as well. One other point I really liked Emerson's article as well. I like how Emerson takes a, takes a self critical perspective.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I think that's very, very, very important. Yes, in fact I would. I would question any, any trainer who does, who isn't self critical of themselves and self critical of the own training, absolutely Of the training that they have, simply because I want them to be able to know and see the weaknesses of their own perspective. Not because, oh, there's perspective has weaknesses and DEI is so weak, no, no, no, because any, any human construction has weaknesses, has strengths, yes, but has weaknesses, and that's just a part of humility. Yup, in my opinion.
Speaker 1:Yup, yup, I'll tell you this, austin. One of the driving factors and the reason why I think it's so easy to put these kind of very complicated and nuanced subjects into big buckets and just throw everything in the bucket and then say I hate it or I love it, is because we are typically driven by fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:In these matters, and when fear is the motivating factor, then we, we like to demonize right, or we like or, or we, we well, we demonize one another is what we do. Right. We demonize you if you say, hey, I got some, I got some, some areas of agreement with this position. Or we demonize you if you say, hey, I got some areas of disagreement with this position, and we're driven by fear. We're driven by our place, you know, fear of our place in life and where we're going to be, and and what does this mean? And you see so much of that in terms of these kind of visceral responses to, to the, to the training, or the or or a visceral response to critique of the training right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's this visceral response that's at play, because we just ultimately fear what's going to happen to me. Right, If, if, if this, if, if, if this diversity of this equity and this inclusion, if it has its way, what is going to happen to me? Or if this diversity, this equity, this inclusion doesn't have its way?
Speaker 2:what's going to happen to me Right?
Speaker 1:And so we, and so that fear creates these kind of very, very heavy handed responses, very, very un, non nuanced responses Oppositionally defiant.
Speaker 2:Absolutely no, no matter what. Absolutely Oppositionally defiant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yes. And so I just want to remind the Christian that's listening to us on on today that, over and over and over again, the Lord is calling us to to not fear. We have passage after passage in which we are encouraged by God to not fear, and I just want to remind you of some of those. For example, deuteronomy, chapter 31, verse six be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the Lord, your God, goes with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Psalm 34, four and five I sought the Lord and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears. Those who look to him are radiant in their faces shall never be ashamed. And then, finally, one that's very familiar Psalm 23 and four. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me, and your rod and your staff. They comfort me.
Speaker 1:Christian, when we are able to bring our fears to the one who has the power to actually deal with our fears, then it frees us, in these kinds of conversations, to welcome one another's opinion. Exactly. I don't have to be afraid if Austin doesn't agree with every element in this particular you know, area of focus that that I may agree more on. I can welcome Austin's opinion. I don't have to fear it because I know that in the end the Lord is going to be with us both and that the Lord is carrying and keeping us both, and so with that I can have the courage to listen and Austin's opinion isn't going to doom me if he disagrees with whatever position that I hold. Is that doesn't mean the end of the world, right?
Speaker 2:I mean it could. No, no, no, no. I'm a really no, no, no, I'm actually I'm great to disagree with yeah, If, in most of the time, actually, if I disagree with you, I'm just not even going to mention it and I'm just going to continue having a good relationship with you, Absolutely, and if I really feel like I'm and if I feel that we have the type of relationship where I can. I mean, Brian, there's probably been at least at least two or three conversations you and I have had where I have said something and you just did not agree with yeah, but you, let me continue talking.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, because you valued that relationship Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Brom, and because I don't have to fear your disagreement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm glad you just disagreed, agreed that you disagreed with me at some point. See what I just did there Of course, of course, of course.
Speaker 2:But I don't have to fear your disagreement, yeah yeah, because you know that well, that's because we've developed the type of relationship where it's not going, it's just not going to devolve into a problem. And once again and I want us to circle back now to our first section because we you know the second section we got into some of the critics and I wanted to go back to that ideal, because the ideal of DEI really is so that we have enough of a relationship where we can work, we can disagree and that we can have a good, long lasting relationship to accomplish the goals that we have. And particularly in the community of Christ, our goal is that we fully live out the gospel with one another, which involves friendship, right, so right, absolutely, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Hey, austin man, this has been a great conversation, one in which we can approach without fear of what the other's thinking. But again, that's part of the whole dynamic of relationship. That's also part of the dynamic of our theme this year Living Reconciled by Loving All Neighbors. And we talked about a couple of weeks ago Luke, chapter 10, and how fear kept the Pharisee, or rather kept the priest and the Levite, on the opposite side of the road. But courage and love is what brought the Samaritan over, and compassion and mercy is what brought the Samaritan to the side of the road, where the man who was in need was able to be helped and able to be reached. And so, as you're having these kind of conversations around diversity, equity and inclusion, be reminded that, even in the midst of those conversations, the love ethic remains the same. The God has called us to love him with everything and to love each other as ourselves, to love our neighbors as ourselves. And so please, enter into these dialogues with a desire to love your neighbor well, which means you will hopefully, hopefully, open your ears and listen and give room to actually be spoken to as well, and not just expect to be heard, but to give room to actually be spoken to, and so, and so we pray that this has been beneficial, been helpful for you.
Speaker 1:Again. This is Brian Crawford, austin Hoyle signing off. Thank, god, bless, god bless. Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.