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What does Juneteenth mean to us today, and why is its celebration crucial for understanding American history? Join Neddie and Brian as they uncover the significance of Juneteenth, a day marking the enforcement of emancipation for enslaved people in Texas on June 19, 1865. The guys explore the integral part of Juneteenth plays in the American story of freedom, the broader implications of the Civil War, and how Juneteenth represents a pivotal moment that should be celebrated as part of the nation's collective narrative.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
We would love to hear from you! Send us a text message.
What does Juneteenth mean to us today, and why is its celebration crucial for understanding American history? Join Neddie and Brian as they uncover the significance of Juneteenth, a day marking the enforcement of emancipation for enslaved people in Texas on June 19, 1865. The guys explore the integral part of Juneteenth plays in the American story of freedom, the broader implications of the Civil War, and how Juneteenth represents a pivotal moment that should be celebrated as part of the nation's collective narrative.
Special thanks to our sponsors:
Nissan, St. Dominic's Hospital, Atmos Energy, Regions Foundation, Brown Missionary Baptist Church, Christian Life Church, Ms. Doris Powell, Mr. Robert Ward, and Ms. Ann Winters
This is Living Reconciled, a podcast dedicated to giving our communities practical evidence of the gospel message by helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured for us by living with grace across racial lines. Hey, thanks so much for joining us on episode 54 of Living Reconciled. I am your host, Brian Crawford, and I am with one of my friends today, Reverend Dr Nettie Winters. Sir, how are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm great, but it's Nettie. I don't know where the doctor. He didn't come today.
Speaker 1:Reverend Dr Bishop Nettie Winters.
Speaker 2:All of those people at home except for.
Speaker 1:Nettie they didn't show up today. Well, at least we got Nettie. It's good to have you as well.
Speaker 2:There you go, man, absolutely it's good to be here and I'm excited about today's program.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. Give a quick shout out to our sponsors. Special thanks to Nissan, st Dominic's Hospital, atmos Energy Regions Foundation, brown Missionary Baptist Church, christian Life Church, ms Doris Powell, mr Robert Ward, ms Ann Winters. Thank you so much for everything that you do. It's because of what you do that we're able to do what we do, and today what we are doing is talking about Juneteenth. June 19th, to be exact, 1865, was the day that Texas slaves found out that they were free, and I guess when I say found out, we should say, rather, that the enforcement was finally conducted. The order number three was read to the slaves and slave holders there in the state of Texas, and many slaves on that day were free. Nettie. This has become a national holiday starting back in 2021, but it's something that many folks, and particularly Texans, have celebrated for decades.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting that the last state to give up slavery was the first state to celebrate.
Speaker 1:Juneteenth, absolutely.
Speaker 2:They've been doing that since 1979.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk to me about the significance, from your vantage point, of Juneteenth.
Speaker 2:You know I have mixed emotions about it. Maybe I can say this on our podcast is that mixed emotions about it? Maybe I can say this on our podcast is that mixed emotions for me is that your kid stays out all night and he brings home a Gideon Bible. So to me that's mixed emotions, right?
Speaker 1:and so this thing of Juneteenth your child stays out all night, but he brings home a Gideon Bible, yeah, so Juneteenth.
Speaker 2:I love the celebration out all night. But he brings home a Gideon Bible, yeah, yeah. And so Juneteenth I love the celebration, I love that. But also, at the same time, when Juneteenth happened, the slave owners did everything they could to prevent the people from being free. Yeah, even to set up new laws, that code words, a code to go from forced slavery to forced slavery. You know it was no freedom. It's like.
Speaker 2:When I was growing up, it was like your daddy said we're going to town. Coach, you can't appreciate this, but I can. We spent a week in the middle of nowhere. That's where we stayed and all the people we would see. If, occasionally, somebody come by, if we had an occasion to go across the field somewhere, we would see somebody. Or maybe go to school.
Speaker 2:And on Saturday, the big thing for us in the rural community and sharecropping and things was to go to town on Saturday night. Well, when Daddy said we were going to go to town, that was good news, man, it was exciting. But then we just drove through town and back home. So all the things that you dreamt about of enjoying on Saturday night with your friends walking the street, buying your you know Babe Ruth's and doing all the things you would do Go to the movie, buy popcorn, all that kind of thing, visit the stores and just having a good time walking them down the street.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to walk out a pair of shoes. Up and down the street my daddy used to make us sit down. He said y'all, you're not wearing your shoes out. He was right, put heel plates on them so you could hear them coming. You know that kind of thing. And so when I think about Juneteenth, I think about the fact that they didn't have a privilege number one to be free, didn't have the privilege of knowing they was free, but then, when they found out they were free, they weren't free Right, if I can say it that way, because immediately upon finding it out, they did everything. And what I find interesting too about that is that the slave owner found ways to go to Brazil and other countries. That was not slavery, was not outlawed. In fact, brazil and one of those places still celebrate the Confederate flag and all those things, as it is in the United States. And so to me it's like, wow, can you imagine that? That finding out that you've been free for a minute right?
Speaker 1:And didn't know it. It's. It's interesting, I mean Juneteenth, for for me it goes all the way back to to the emancipation, emancipation proclamation. Right, it goes all the way back to the Emancipation Proclamation.
Speaker 1:Right that's it January 1st 1863. Right, and so that's two and a half years before the Juneteenth announcement. But it was there that when we typically think about the Emancipation Proclamation, we think about that being the document that freed the slaves. It wasn't quite as simple as that, though. It was the document that basically stated that if the Confederate states and Confederate forces had been overran by the Union forces, then those slaves in those states in which the union forces had seized control would be free.
Speaker 1:Right, so the Emancipation Proclamation. Whereas there was three point nine, four million slaves that were actually at the time, in terms of their estimates, in terms of how many African-Americans at that time were enslaved, only about 500,000 were freed around the time of the Emancipation Proclamation, because it was only for the Confederate states that had succeeded in which the Emancipation Proclamation applied to, and so you had several states, even beyond the Confederate, that the institution of slavery still existed beyond Juneteenth, and so it wasn't really until the 13th Amendment December the 6th 1865, that you really begin to see a full-fledged movement of freedom for the slaves.
Speaker 2:I think you got to back off that full-fledged freedom because it was not full-fledged freedom Because you still had a hard road to hoe. Now, when you read the 13th Amendment and you read in the article.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I know exactly where you're going. Yeah, so when you read the 13th Amendment and you read in the article, Absolutely, I know exactly where you're going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when you read in there, it really wasn't freedom, right.
Speaker 1:Because it basically allowed or created space now for convict leasing, which is a whole other form of slavery that you see, moving not just into the late 1800s but even into the early 1900s where you see convict leasing. And so there was still, like you said, there were still these inventive ways.
Speaker 2:It was convict leasing in the Mississippi Delta in the 60s. Where I grew up at Right. The people that in parchment pick, chop, work the cotton fields and other fields of soybean or corn or whatever it was on the plantations that was surrounding the, the, the penal, I mean the uh uh, patron penitentiary, Right, Right. So, they will work on farm by Jim Easton, and you know, United States Senator.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Nobody who would think that so. So. But the 13th amendment uh says if you get caught laundering, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then they put vagrants law.
Speaker 2:Yeah, vagrants laws, vagrants laws. Then they put the forts and other places where people would normally go to exercise the opportunity to leave the plantation. In other words, you had to stay where you were right until you found some way to go right or not and then the plantation only did everything he could to make sure you didn't find anywhere else to go.
Speaker 1:Now we've heard about now this is interesting that people ought to take this the 13th Amendment says, by the way, nettie, it forbids chattel slavery across the United States and in every territory under its control, except as a criminal punishment Right. And that was the key that many folks latched onto.
Speaker 2:They created new crimes Vagrants spitting on the street All of that was a crime, so they'd arrest you for that. But what was interesting? More interesting to me, is that the slave owners grabbed their slaves and exported them with themselves from other countries had outlaw slaves.
Speaker 1:Well, not just that, nettie, but there were moments or there were places, even in the states, where, as the Union was seizing control of these territories, texas became kind of that last bastion, so to speak, because Texas was the last place for the enforcement to happen, and so they were taking their slaves from different places and moving them down to Texas where there was still hope yet that they could continue their institution. And so you saw a lot of that, not just from country to country but interstate migration.
Speaker 2:See, just because Granger read the order about the proclamation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because Granger read the order back to Proclamation. Yeah, General Granger.
Speaker 2:Granger in reading that he gave all these conditions to being free. Wait a minute, man. If I'm free, I'm not free. What do you mean? Conditions? What do you mean you got to stay where you are. Wait a minute, I thought you just freed me from being under the master's hand, and now you tell me the master still had control of me and if I leave, I'm like a, a, a felon or some escapee and and I can be killed or punished. And and and and the atrocities of the people either that was in Texas or migrated to Texas with their slaves. So when they saw the Union coming to free the slaves, they didn't waste any time getting them out of there. But also, if they couldn't get them out, they'd just kill them.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You're referring, nettie, to General Order no 3. And I thought it would be helpful to take a moment just to read a little bit of it. It says the people of Texas are informed that, in accordance with a proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This was read June 19th in Texas involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and hired labor. The freedmen are advised to remain quietly at their present homes and work for wages. They are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts and that they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere. See one of the things that stands out when you talk about Juneteenth. Of course, like I said, when you talk about Juneteenth, you got to talk about the Emancipation Proclamation, 1863, january 1st. You got to talk about December 6th, 1865, where the 13th Amendment was passed, and then you got to talk about the period of time that we would call the Reconstruction period.
Speaker 2:That was like from 1865 to 1877.
Speaker 1:Right, right, where there's a period of time in which you see some of that control being relinquished and given to African Americans to exercise their right to vote, to exercise their right to hold office, but it's only with the oversight and the protection of the union in these territories. And so, to your point, when the union wasn't present, then enforcement couldn't happen. And so, even with reconstruction, as soon as the union pulled back and they said all right, guys, we've done our part here, let's see if y'all can figure this out from henceforward. As soon as that happens, jim Crow swoops in.
Speaker 2:You know, brian, that never ceased to amaze me how that's still working today. And people say well, how is it working today? Just think about the government says we're going to give block grants, we're going to give this money to help emancipate people and empower them and give them economic development, but you put it in the hands of the people. That's been discriminatory in other ways and other actions. If, in fact, if you were going to prosper under the hands of the people that they put it in the hands of, you would have no reason to do that.
Speaker 2:And when I worked for USDA, I worked out of Washington DC for a while and so we had the privilege of, in instance, like the Union soldiers, we had to go into some of these states and say you got to provide. We had to go into a state and say you got to provide this person with a desk. When, in one situation, man, they sent me a photo where the guy reported for work that was a waste can turned upside down with his name tag on it. That was his office, that was his desk, my goodness. And we had to go. I don't mind saying it was in South Carolina. And this is what I said to the personnel director and to the administrator at the time.
Speaker 2:You know they was talking about what happened after they left town. They moved them from the waste can to a closet, wow. And then they had to make them give them an office. And I'm thinking what part did you miss that?
Speaker 2:If you had to go there and get in from a waste can, that you thought, from then on, emancipation that he's going to be treated like everybody else in the office or she was going to be treated like everybody else in the office. No, no, no, no, no. And so we go in and rescue of sorts or deliver of sorts, and then put it back in the hands of the people that we rescued it from, like the president, when he passed, declared that he passed, and the next president to come in they had promised to take the land that was conquered and give it to the slaves and so forth. And they started the process and then the president and then the next guy comes in and said oh no, give it back, give it back. And he, not only did he give it, you had to give it back but they moved it from the government hand into the hand of the people that owned it to begin with.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:You're referring to after Lincoln's death, andrew Johnson, yeah, it's like what did the king in Egypt do to the Israelite? I mean, he said we'll take away your straw and you still got to make brick. Yeah, it came back even harder, Right, and I think that's what happened during the period after Reconstruction and the period before Reconstruction. It was like a WMing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's that boy. I can see the slave owner not saying you think you had it hard before the war. You really going to have it now, capturing folks and taking them out, and before I let you go I'll kill you.
Speaker 1:And they did Right Well during that period of time, what, in many cases, the African-American became the scapegoat for all the, for all the devastation that resulted in in in that, in that period of war and and the loss and the devastation of property and territory. They look around and they say hey, that's, this is your fault that these things happened.
Speaker 2:I keep trying to help people understand that the reason for the celebration of Juneteenth is that I finally got a reason to celebrate. But also I get to celebrate. It's only for an instant. For a moment I gave you to my. We go to town on Saturday night and we just drive through. At least I got to holler out to one of my friends Right, at least for a moment while I did and ran into the store. We could get out, don't go too far now, but we could get at least way down. Our friend, they would come and stand around the car and visit with us before we had to go home. And so you didn't get the full benefit of having the freedom to be out on Saturday night but you did have some freedom.
Speaker 1:Well, nettie, I think what you're highlighting is one of the reasons why Juneteenth is significant is because it reminds us that freedom is ongoing Absolutely, and that freedom is a journey Right, and that just because there was a declaration made on a particular day, it doesn't mean that the message has either been received or been accepted, because there was two pieces to that message in 1863, the Emancipation Proclamation. In some sense, the message was not received. But what? Oftentimes, when we talk about Juneteenth, we basically say, hey, the slaves didn't know, and what Dr Henry Louis Gates Jr would say was that no, no, no.
Speaker 1:There's good reason and good evidence to believe that the slaves knew. Number one, because they have gossip and scuttlebutt just like everybody else. But number two, they had slaves that were coming from other territories, that had been freed, and so they were coming from other territories and probably telling the other slaves in texas that hey, no, this, this has passed, and so it wasn't that they were free. They, they hadn't heard the news. It was, the news was yet to be enforced. There you go until until, until the union forces showed up, and so freedom is a journey, it's's a process, and if you ever back off of that process. And if you ever back off of that journey, there's a chance, a strong chance. If you ever forget the journey, there's a strong chance that you'll see some regression, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Now that's a great point that you made about the scuttlebutt, the underground, all of that ain't no way that they didn't know. I believe that during that period of time they was trying to figure out a way to not be killed and, exercising that, to not bring harm or hurt any more than what they already were. So I think that the pressure of all those things you described, kind of like the civil rights movement, I think the pressure of you know we need to tell these people the truth, we need to release them at least in some sense or at least have some kind of release veil here. To do that we're going to find ourselves in a bigger mess than the Civil War. So for me it was like the slaves are pushing and pressing to try to get free, really, and the slave owners is killing time by avoiding telling them and allowing them to fear and taking them all across the country and out of the country and all of those things, while they divide ways under the 13th Amendment, do you hear me to make sure that you don't get the full benefit of what you're entitled to? You know, here you're coming out of slavery how you going on some land when they gave the land and snatched it back or didn't get it at all. So, as a slave, where are you going to get some land from? How are you going to do it Unless the master and that was part of the process the master did empower some slaves with land and other resources as they set them free because of what had taken place, and they become like family. They were family.
Speaker 2:So you got all this undergirding, underlining stuff and background in here that when people hear Juneteenth they think about man that was in 1865. Tell me something. Lately, you know we weren't allowed to vote in 1965. Whoa? So this is not ancient stuff, this is now. And so when you hear people talk about celebrating Juneteenth, it's like even today listen to me very carefully even today, and when I was growing up, we would hear things like Juneteenth and it's like we didn't want to publicly go out and celebrate because that would have been used against you, it would have been used against my parents for celebrating Juneteenth. But we celebrate the 4th of July, mm-hmm. We celebrate the Civil War, the end or whatever it was. And so I think too often we see the Juneteenth events of the world, the civil rights events of the world, as a history, or a celebration of what resulted in civil rights in Juneteenth, as a celebration for black folk. But now, juneteenth, free white folks, absolutely. If you, if you as part of the union or part of the Confederacy, juneteenth, freed you.
Speaker 1:It's an American story of freedom. There you go. It's not it's not a black, it's not simply it's not merely or simply a black man, black woman story of freedom. It's an American story of freedom.
Speaker 2:So that's why I don't understand how we get carried away with the 4th of July and celebrating our independence from British and all of that and we can't. As an American story, the civil rights I mean. The Civil War was real. Absolutely it involved family, killing family, white or black. It's like didn't white folks fight in the war. Absolutely it involved family, killing family, white or black. It's like didn't white folks fight in the war? Absolutely. Didn't white folks that lived in the North, related to the white folks in the South, shoot at each other?
Speaker 1:750,000 roughly is the estimate for how many soldiers died in the Civil War. 750,000 soldiers roughly died in the Civil War. 750,000 soldiers roughly died in the Civil War. Four million black Americans released and brought into freedom. That's over five million people that were either enslaved or dead, or nearly five million.
Speaker 2:Okay, while you're running your statistics, how many men died, how many lives, in the war? How many of them were 750,000. 750,000 died. How many of them was African American? How many of them was Caucasian? I think the majority of them would be Caucasian.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and that's the point.
Speaker 2:This is an American story of freedom and when you see the Civil War reenacted, very seldom do you see African Americans or people of color reenacting the war. It would be a falsehood to do that, because the foot soldiers and the buffalo soldiers and all of those you know Smattering. Yeah, very small, but also they were only allowed to do so much. Right, you know like they had soldiers that didn't have guns.
Speaker 2:So how you fight without a weapon, you know it's like really so, so, but the, the, and then they would kill the masters, would kill the enslaved people rather than setting them free. And so to me it's like okay, let's look at this Juneteenth thing as an opportunity for America to celebrate its history in a way that's positive, in a way that celebrates the fact that at some point, we came to our senses, absolutely After 750,000 folks and that's just a surface of stuff. You know, there are people, absolutely there were people that died because of starvation or, you know, families didn't survive because nobody was there to provide for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we don't have the full extent, right.
Speaker 2:Not even close to the full extent this war this civil war was a war that devastated our nation, devastated our nation. To me it's used to American history, american celebration. So Juneteenth ought to be celebrated as nationally and as wide open as the 4th of July.
Speaker 1:No, it's a story of freedom, and again, freedom is progressive, it's ongoing, and so July 4th is one narrative, one story of freedom. But there were many people even as we celebrate July 4th as a day of freedom there were many people that were yet to be free, and so the story continues.
Speaker 2:The story is ongoing. The journey goes on. Absolutely, there are people that were celebrating the 4th of July and was doing in America what they were celebrating being free from it in England.
Speaker 1:Sure, in other words, we're celebrating the anarchy of England, only to pronounce that or to produce the tyranny of England, only to produce tyranny in our own state, or in our own states and in our own borders.
Speaker 2:And when you compare the tyranny of England to what was taking place here, it don't compare. Right, right taking place here, it don't compare. In other words, it's amazing to me when people get free, they begin to set rules and things that, wow, go beyond what they were set free for.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it reminds me of the parable of the king's servant, where the servant has, you know, multi-million dollar debt in our day and age and the king says all right, now, servant, I'm going to release you of this debt and free you, and this debt has been forgiven. Now you go, and you go in and do right from here henceforth. He says, oh man, ok, thank you so much, king. And then he goes and he finds a buddy of his, a colleague that owes him a couple of dollars, and he takes that colleague man and he gives it to him about that couple of dollars, never mind the fact that he's been freed of millions of dollars of debt.
Speaker 1:And so oftentimes, as we are pursuing freedom for ourselves, as we are pursuing freedom for ourselves, it can be easy for us to dismiss the necessity for us to offer freedom and give freedom to those who are not us.
Speaker 2:To me, it's like the human mind and the human capacity cannot comprehend the vastness and the massive resources that God has made available to us for us to fully enjoy, not at the expense of one another, but in full participation with one another. There you go, it's there, man. Not at the expense of one another, but at the enjoyment and celebration of one another and full participation with one another, and so Juneteenth.
Speaker 2:What would this look like if Juneteenth was the beginning of leading towards July 4th, the great celebration and emancipation of all citizens, and not just one citizen Right?
Speaker 1:What if it was a stepping stone to a multi-week celebration of freedom in this country?
Speaker 2:We can't hardly get one day in. Some people didn't even get Wednesday off. Man Right To celebrate.
Speaker 1:Right, right. What a powerful way to think about it as a continuation of freedom. Yeah, it's on this continuum of freedom, and so that's a powerful way to think about it. Nettie, how can people celebrate this day in a way that is reflective, in a way that is honoring the men and women who labored, who fought, both black and white, for these kinds of freedoms? How can a family, how can an individual, how can they celebrate this day in a way that's honorable and reflective and respectful for those that came before them?
Speaker 2:The family, an individual family, is a miniature of the larger universal family, and so we can do it every day by earning the humanity of our fellow human beings, whether, whether they be from foreign countries, or uh was brought here in enslavement, whether we would come here, bringing them here. You know, everybody came here. I don't say everybody, but you know.
Speaker 1:Native Americans. Our native brothers were already here. I don't say everybody, but Native Americans are already here.
Speaker 2:But the people that you find in power and where we ought to be celebrating, we find that it's always a divisiveness or a one-ups-man, or there's always something lacking. It's like man. Can we just fully embrace one another? Can we fully appreciate one another for what God has created us in his image and in his likeness?
Speaker 2:So when Juneteenth comes not on our way to Juneteenth, but when Juneteenth happens everybody ought to be dancing in the street. On the 4th of July, everybody ought to be dancing in the street, of sorts. And so we have these great opportunities to have festivals, not a German festival, not a French festival, not an African-American festival, but a miracles festival, days of opportunity across this nation. That represents so much that's been accomplished in this great country of ours that we can celebrate. And it's enough room, it's enough resources for everyone to participate, even without having to legislate or legate one another to the point that you know it's enough. This is our history, this is our heritage, regardless of how you look at it, from whether or not you were there in 1865, certainly I was not there, but I'm reaping the repercussions from it, regardless of how you look at it, from whether or not you were there in 1865. Certainly I was not there, but I'm reaping the repercussions from it and my counterpart as a white person is reaping the rewards of the benefits, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Amen. You know the scripture is oftentimes pointing us to celebrations of freedom. You know, Passover is very much the Passover. The festivals, all of those are reminders of God's hand in delivering his people. And so Juneteenth is not the Passover, obviously, and it's not the same as the festivals that commemorate God's deliverance of his people out of Egypt. But it is yet another demonstration, an instance of a God who sees his image, who has created us in his image and his likeness, and he is bringing us on a journey where we can all participate in freedom. And, of course, we all know that that is fully realized when we at the return of Christ, where we fully participate in the realities of freedom, because only whom the Son sets free is truly free indeed, and so we will one day fully participate in that freedom through Christ. But these are shadows, so to speak, and opportunities for us to be reminded that this is what it means to to to be created in his image and his likeness, is to be a people that weren't intended to be in chains, but a people that were intended for those chains to be loosened and for us to be unbound and free. It's been a great, great episode, brother, grateful for you, grateful for your wisdom and your and your and your counsel, and thankful for this opportunity that we get a chance to talk about a day of freedom, and we pray that you are thinking and contemplating how you might participate in this day of freedom called Juneteenth.
Speaker 1:Please subscribe to Living Reconciled. You can do so by going to any podcast app and selecting or searching on Living Reconciled. You can do so by going to any podcast app and selecting or searching on Living Reconciled. It's probably one of the first podcasts that comes up with that name Living Reconciled by Mission Mississippi. Click on it, subscribe. Share with friends and family. We would love your feedback and your insight on how we can continue to improve this podcast and make it better Again. This was great to be with my friend, great friend, nettie Winters. This is Brian Crawford signing off, saying God bless.
Speaker 2:God bless us and God bless America.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining Living Reconciled. If you would like more information on how you can be a part of the ongoing work of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, of helping Christians learn how to live in the reconciliation that Jesus has already secured, please visit us online at missionmississippiorg or call us at 601-353-6477. Thanks again for listening.